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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / August 2006

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Ankle (subtalar) pain/inflammation/Synnovectomy?

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angela - 15 Aug 2006 02:21 GMT
Hi,
I'm new to this group.  I guess you could say I'm feeling a bit
desperate which is why I decided to join.  I've been having "mystery"
ankle pain and swelling for a little over a year.  Even though I have
RA (diagnosed and been receiving treatment since 1997), I've been
getting such conflicting and confusing "diagnoses" from different
doctors about this problem.  Rheumatologists have been saying they
don't think it's the RA because no damage or anything is showing up in
the ankle joint on the numerous MRIs I've had over the year.  I've
tried a podiatrist, orthopedic doctors, the Mayo Clinic (just was there
last week and they were puzzled and sent me to physical therapy),
physical therapy, cortisone shots, increased dose of
prednisone..etc..etc.  Today I got some devastating news - I went to
see a very good and reputable foot and ankle orthopedic doctor who sees
mainly patients who have arthritis (80 percent, he said).  Looking at
my last Mayo MRIs (the report) and new Xrays done today...he said that
it IS the arthritis causing inflammation in the subtalar joint...and
that basically my ankles will never go back to normal...and he was
talking about having to do fusing down the line.  He gave me a
cortisone shot and said to see how that goes and to call him back in
two weeks.  I am so upset....I don't want to have to have my ankles
fused.  But this pain and inflammation has been ruining my life for the
last year. I can barely be on my feet (I'm 27, btw).  I have one joint
that is already damaged from the RA - my right wrist.  I had a
synnovectomy done on it which helped but it was done way too late and
now it is useless and constantly painful.  When this ankle problem
started it was my worst fear that the same thing was happening.  And
now....now...I finally find out what the problem is?  Anyway..I'm
getting off-topic here but I'm really upset, of course.  So...just
wondering....can synnovectomies be done on ankles?  Do they work?  I'm
so scared to get my ankles fused...I don't want that at all.

Has anybody had a similar problem?  I'm really worried.

Thanks for listening

Angela
(Minneapolis, MN)
vickie b. - 15 Aug 2006 04:01 GMT
(((((angela)))))

No real advice but I did want you to know that we're here to help and
sometimes to just listen,

Vickie B>
angela - 15 Aug 2006 21:37 GMT
Thanks for the nice message Vickie. I appreciate it

Angela

> (((((angela)))))
>
> No real advice but I did want you to know that we're here to help and
> sometimes to just listen,
>
> Vickie B>
debbie m - 15 Aug 2006 21:08 GMT
Angela,

I'm so sorry I don't have any answers for you.  I wanted you to know I
read your post and know that you are upset with the news.  Can you do
research on the web about your different options?

Maybe someone will be along soon that can give you more direct answers
to your questions.  Glad you stopped by.

debbie m.

> Hi,
> I'm new to this group.  I guess you could say I'm feeling a bit
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Angela
> (Minneapolis, MN)
angela - 15 Aug 2006 21:36 GMT
Hi Debbie,
Thanks for the message and the support.  Everything is up in the air
now..I don't know what to do and I am fearing the worst. :(

thanks
Angela

> Angela,
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> > Angela
> > (Minneapolis, MN)
Jan O'Keeffe - 15 Aug 2006 21:52 GMT
Angela:
I was kind of at the same place about 15 yrs. ago.  I finally ended up
wearing AirCast braces for about 4 years and my ankles self-fused and I
really do quite well.  Remicade helped the most (plus 2 total knee
replacements).  Don't give up--you can have good days again.  Jan O'

> Hi,
> I'm new to this group.  I guess you could say I'm feeling a bit
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Angela
> (Minneapolis, MN)
Diane - 16 Aug 2006 03:52 GMT
angela, i feel for you! my left ankle is my biggest problem, and i had
problems with it in my early twenties but wasn't diagnosed until i was
45 (now 46). it was where it (RA) all started. i had significant
pronation in my feet since childhood. my left foot turned in. so when
arthritis hit strong and eventually did its erosion thing, many of my
joints in my foot and ankle auto-fused (fused on their own from bone on
bone), but in the pronated position. this is a major drag, and i always
have pain and inflammation. now the following is just a guess on my
part and something to check out with your doc--if your foot and ankle
are in a normal position, what if you had a brace made (they're really
not too ugly; i have one--but then i'm also not 27 and i don't care
much any more. . . ) and wore it so that if your ankle worsens to the
point of auto fusing, it will fuse on its own in the correct position.
voila! no surgery. meanwhile get cortisone shots to control the pain.

just reading over what i wrote, i think it's an unorthodox idea and
probably a bad one.
=:-0

diane
angela - 17 Aug 2006 15:33 GMT
Hi
Thanks for writing.  However I don't want mine fusing at all!! I want
them better and normal... :(

> angela, i feel for you! my left ankle is my biggest problem, and i had
> problems with it in my early twenties but wasn't diagnosed until i was
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> diane
Harvey R. Stone - 17 Aug 2006 18:01 GMT
> Hi
> Thanks for writing.  However I don't want mine fusing at all!! I want
> them better and normal... :(

and it is most understanding for you to feel that way,,,,,,, but,,,,,,, what
is the best thing for you to do when you accept what is with your ankles?

Harv

>> angela, i feel for you! my left ankle is my biggest problem, and i had
>> problems with it in my early twenties but wasn't diagnosed until i was
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>> diane
johnie - 18 Aug 2006 21:19 GMT
> Hi
> Thanks for writing.  However I don't want mine fusing at all!! I want
> them better and normal... :(

angela, i have a couple of fused joints and i wish they werent but
accepting the problem is critical for finding the best long term
solution. With the ankle the last thing you want is for it to self fuse
in an awkward position. Finding the right brace and using it religously
is the key. It takes a good combination of RD and PT to pull this off.
I am now having to decide whether to allow my ankle to auto fuse or get
it done surgically. I will probably go with the surgery as that seems
to work better for my joints and it takes all the guesswork out of it.
After 30+years of dealing with this stuff it should get easier to
accept and adjust but guess what. It doesn't. I still want all my beat
up old joints to go back to normal. I don't want to be an ol' gimp but
i am what i am and i try to keep a sense of humor and some perspective
about it. All you have to do is look up and there will be lots of folks
with a lot more problems than you and i will ever see.
Hang in there and good luck with the ankle.

high desert healthy ankle hugs,
johnie
angela - 18 Aug 2006 21:45 GMT
Well maybe things would be a little easier to accept when you are
receiving the right treatment and care from doctors in the FIRST place
instead of getting the run-around for over a year.  Yeah, I'm pissed.
I have the nagging fear and suspicion that my ankles could have gotten
better by now if diagnosed correctly A YEAR AGO.  So no, acceptance is
not easy in this circumstance.  And no I don't want anything fused.
And I have plenty sense of humor.  I came on here asking for helpful
advice not morale boosting techniques.  I don't know and can't know
what you've gone though and you can't do the same regarding my life
either.

> > Hi
> > Thanks for writing.  However I don't want mine fusing at all!! I want
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> high desert healthy ankle hugs,
> johnie
johnie - 18 Aug 2006 22:51 GMT
geez, all i did was try to offer a sympathetic po'int of view from
someone who has been dealing with these stuff for nearly as long as you
are old. SSOOORRRRY for trying to be friendly.

I assure you it wont happen again. Perhaps you are having a bad day.
PERHAPS you are just a world class Bitch.

The only thing i offered you was advise. Here it is again in language
better suited to your comprehension level.
One thing you can take to the bank kiddo. If you dont get your head out
of your a.s and act like an adult instead of a 3 year old re: your
ankle problem your going to be on crutches the rest of your life
instead of dealing with a slight variation in your normal gait. If your
ankle is deteriotaing because of RA the only thing you can do is
replace it or fuse it. Pissing and moaning and berating people trying
to help you is only going to make you lonelier than you must already
be.

good luck with that growing up stuff,
johnie

> Well maybe things would be a little easier to accept when you are
> receiving the right treatment and care from doctors in the FIRST place
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> > high desert healthy ankle hugs,
> > johnie
Kelly - 19 Aug 2006 00:13 GMT
Angela,
johnie was trying to help and you jumped on him without knowing him.  Not a
great way to start.

I am not going to tell you what to do or how to feel.  I will tell you that
for me I have had  to stop figuring out what happened in the past ( not I
didn't say forgive and accept - that will come later maybe) and worry about
the future.  I am sure you don't want to have a fused joint but I am even
more sure you don't want an abnormally positioned joint that has fused on
its own.  Trust me - I have had a reaction to one of my RA meds that has led
to neurological damage and basically we are treating it as a spinal cord
injury.  That has led my gait to be off - consequently my balance is off, my
hips are bad, my ankles and knees are bad.  Many many joint replacements
down the road if I am not careful. I would do anything to stop this but no
stop in sight.

your choice - Johnie has dealt with many things along the way and he is one
of the people I always stop to listen to.  Hopefully you were just having a
bad day and we have all had those.  If not well - that leaves Johnie to
offer his advice and well wishes and support and all he offers to the rest
of us that always welcome it.  His experiences (as well as his stories about
his wonderful grandson) always help me immensely.

I wish you luck in your journey wherever it takes you.  This disease takes
away so much from all of us - don't let it win on everything.  Fight to get
a good doctor, physio, ot, whatever you need.  But also try to find support
and try not to let the crap get you down.  Please don't let the disease win.
Hopefully you will reread both your post and his and understand what I am
saying.  An apology might be needed - but maybe not.

Kelly in Canada

> geez, all i did was try to offer a sympathetic po'int of view from
> someone who has been dealing with these stuff for nearly as long as you
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>> > high desert healthy ankle hugs,
>> > johnie
johnie - 19 Aug 2006 04:05 GMT
kelly, thank you for some very generous words. I just reread my second
post and it actually looks like i might have been having a bad day
also.>g< but im not really and my reaction might have been a bit too
harsh and for that i apologize to the group and angela. I forget how
difficult it is for young people trying to deal with a relatively new
DX.
I am really tired today. I just spent two days putting in my new well
and am actually celebrating. I got cold clean deep water that doesnt
have to be filtered. Its pumping at 440 feet. I havent had that kind of
water since i was a kid drinking deep well water on the farm where i
grew up. I do hurt everywhere today and start putting masonry up on
monday. This house may be the last major project i ever take on but its
going to get done and i will have a beautiful place to sit and stare
for the few years it will take to recover.>g< It really has become a
labor of love to create something i will be able to pass on to malcolm
and acacia. More about them in an update thread i will start this
weekend.

as always,
big healing hugs from yer desert bud,
johnie

> Angela,
> johnie was trying to help and you jumped on him without knowing him.  Not a
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> >> > high desert healthy ankle hugs,
> >> > johnie
Harvey R. Stone - 19 Aug 2006 13:51 GMT
Well said and well done.
Harv
> kelly, thank you for some very generous words. I just reread my second
> post and it actually looks like i might have been having a bad day
[quoted text clipped - 129 lines]
>> >> > high desert healthy ankle hugs,
>> >> > johnie
Nann Bell - 19 Aug 2006 15:54 GMT
congratulations on the well, johnie!  I know what you mean - I grew up with
well water, though not that deep being in north Florida with its shallow
water table.  My mom finally got city water a couple of years ago because, at
76 (then), she no longer wanted to deal with the hassles of no water when
electrical outages shut down the pump system.  It was good timing, just
before all the trials of Florida's 4 hurricane season.  But she filters her
drinking water to get out the chlorine and still ahs well water for the yard
(and water-to-air heat pump) so "good" water IS available.  LOL

I hope you recover some before starting the masonry!

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

> I am really tired today. I just spent two days putting in my new well
> and am actually celebrating. I got cold clean deep water that doesnt
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and acacia. More about them in an update thread i will start this
> weekend.
ladylove77 - 19 Aug 2006 22:01 GMT
Enjoy that good water, Johnie.  When we moved out from Atlanta in December
1968, the new house we bought had a shallow well.  Originally it was fine,
but soon began to have red in it that ruined white clothes.  So we had to
have a deep well put in, and I mean deep--was very expensive.  One year
later, the county extended their water line through our neighborhood, and we
had no choice except to pay to get on it.  That was really expensive water.
We used it in the house and used the deep well to water the yards!
Gwen

> congratulations on the well, johnie!  I know what you mean - I grew up
> with
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> and acacia. More about them in an update thread i will start this
>> weekend.
Kelly - 19 Aug 2006 16:33 GMT
Hard to judge that line sometimes Johnie and that is the reason I wrote (I
try to keep my stress level way down these days so don't always reply.)  It
is tough being young with this disease and we all want instant answers but
lets face it the people here know there are no quick diagnosis in most cases
and not always incredible doctors who can diagnose but then sometimes who
can blame them.  There are so many different diseases out there that mimic
arthritis and so many patients.  Anyhow off my soap box.  I just wanted her
as did you, not to have to do a fix up joint fuse when a straight one from
the beginning might have done better.

Ah a good well - is there anything better?  After putting up with horrible
water at our cabin for several years we finally drilled 2 years ago and got
clear, lovely tasting water again.  It is wonderful!  There is something
about working and finishing something too.  Pat is looking forward to fixing
up our place on the lake for himself and our boys.  They were up there 2
weeks ago clearing the pine beatle kill off our property (pretty much every
tree - heartbreaking) and planning what they were going to do.  I swear if I
see one more timber beam cottage plan book!  Anyhow they love it.  Your
place will be a lovely spot for Malcolm and Acacia but more important a
great place to sit when you get a chance to sit now.

Take care of yourself Johnie.  Think of you often.

Kelly

> kelly, thank you for some very generous words. I just reread my second
> post and it actually looks like i might have been having a bad day
[quoted text clipped - 129 lines]
>> >> > high desert healthy ankle hugs,
>> >> > johnie
spodosaurus - 18 Aug 2006 04:24 GMT
> Hi,
> I'm new to this group.  I guess you could say I'm feeling a bit
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Angela
> (Minneapolis, MN)

Regarding fusion, I've had that hanging over my head for some time now,
too. I've managed with one crutch for a long time but now I use two and
sometimes a power wheelchair, as I also have multiple joints involved. A
synovectomy can only be done if the ankle has a physical anomoly that
this procedure can work on. I take it that he didn't see an indication
that this would be a viable procedure right now, but perhaps you can
bring it up at your next appointment? He did say that fusion would be in
the future, not immediate, so he may already be thinking of alternative
options (perhaps including synovectomy).

Regards,

Ari

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Nann Bell - 19 Aug 2006 15:54 GMT
Hi Angela,

I'm late coming in on this because, in all honesty, your original post was
quite difficult reading for me without any paragraph breaks.  I waited until
I'd learned more from the replies AND I got a day with less of a sinus
headache to read it (thank goodness it *finally* rained last night and washed
out some of the pollen!)

Several points:
1) I was also diagnosed in my late 20s, so I know how that feels - also have
hypermobility and have had a lifetime of sprained ankles, thankfuly slowed by
a wise orthopod's prescibed PT.

2) ankle synovectomies CAN be done, though success varies.  We even know
someone who had it done and later had a crescent moon tatooed over her
crescent- shaped scar.  So if the problem is still at just the inflammation
level, it might help.

3)  My dad had his ankle fused.  Though he had RA, his ankle degeneration was
the result of traumatic arthritis, resulting from a poorly healed, tiny bone
in the ankle that broke in a bicycle accident.  His ankle was bone on bone
and the bone was wearing away by the time he decided to do it.  As awful as
it sounds, you DO have a some flexibility in the foot that helps you
compensate for the fused ankle.  Daddy was definitely able to walk much
better after his fusion - in fact it drove him to get surgeries on some of
his RA damaged joints so he could walk even better once the ankle pain was
gone!

However, if you still have cartilege in you ankle, you shouldn't need a
fusion yet and it is time for the inflammation to be treated agressively to
avoid such a future.  That is why you got the cortisone injection of course.  
Synovectomy may be another option, also a medication change to drive down
your inflammation overall.  You need to see your RD about that and make sure
he has the records from your ankle specialist.

4) Modern medicine and all our modern diagnostic tricks often lead us to
believe that doctors should be able to tell everything about our bodies.  
Unfortunately, it's not true.  Any halfway decent doctor will catch a disease
that presents in the classic way.  A presentation that is not classic can
confound even the best doctors.

Many of us here have or have had arthritis that does not present in classic
ways.  One person even had multiple joint surgeries and replacements before
she finally got an RA diagnosis.  I personally don't show the classic signs
of inflammation in my bloodwork most of the time, even when my RDs can see
that my joints are inflammmed.  All of this is to say you may not have been
mistreated all these years - it IS possible that your ankle has been
presenting in ways that were confusing and either reached the point of being
more apparent or you found yourself a superb diagnostician in the ankle
specialist.  Frankly, the judgment of your other doctors should be based on
their overall treatment of you AND how they respond to the diagnostic
information passed on to them by the ankle guy you just saw.  

I know how upsetting and frustrating it is to see all of this happening to
your body at such a young age.  I, like some others here, had an arthritis
ravaged parent to look at as my future picture when I was diagnosed 21 years
ago.  Luckily, modern medicines came along before I had that much damage and
we've been able to hold off a lot a permanent damage.  But I also had to
learn to live with the limitations dictated by pain and fatigue.  And I was
blessed by meeting and marrying a man who helps with all of that and cheers
me on.  

Hang in there, you are doing the right thing in educating yourself to take
control of your treatment and a good life is still possible, though perhaps
not the one you envisioned a couple of years ago.
Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

 
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