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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / August 2006

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Gout and/or RA?

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Krey Miller - 09 Aug 2006 22:25 GMT
Ok, weird and rambling post here just to fish for some information from
real people in the real world.

My wife was diagnosed with RA several years ago and has had high levels
of joint damage, pain and all the usual problems.  Due to cost, we
couldn't afford enbrel or humira and methotrexate had little affect.  
The only relief until recently was high doses of ibpuprophen.  She
started plaquenil about a 2 months ago and there is no reason that say
if it is or is not helping yet.

Now we get to the weird part...Everything I read says that gout can
mimic RA.  The RA was diagnosed simply because she had the RA factor in
her blood and a couple of "rat bites" on the bone x-rays of her feet 5
years ago.  However, in some ways the current symptoms seem more like
those listed for gout that is mimicing RA.

First...the RA diagnosis coincided with later stages of
menopause...seems that this also tends to be the case with gout in women.

The RA stated with the big toe joint on one foot and has progressed so
that the toes on both feet are now highly distorted.  Pain was only
"sort of" bilateral...more like one side for a few days and the other to
match a few days later.  It's in all toes and fingertips now

Most pain started in her feet, progressed to her ankles and bottom of
her feet...and of course thumbs, wrists, knees and elbows eventually
came in. Some big joints like shoulders and hips give problems too which
doesn't match gout well.

Pain levels often come and go in short periods...mostly fine all day and
suddenly really bad in an hours time, usually later at night.  Pain may
mostly go away in a joint or area in an hour.  On the other hand, it
might last days.

Recently a hard nodule on one of her fingers appeared to come to the
surface and break...small yellowish crystal seemed to come out.  

Kidney function also showed a slight problem which the doctor atributed
to high ibuprophen use so switched her to tylenol

In hindsight it appears that weeks where she drinks HUGE amounts of
liquids, the pain levels go down.  However it's easy to force yorself to
see what you want on such things rather than reality..for example, she
drinks more when it's hot out and the heat may be the cause of
improvements.

There are a few other things that seem to match gout better than RA like
more meat inthe diet corresponding to more pain the next day but the
infor I can find is mostly non-specific.

Ok, I know I've thrown out a lot of weird stuff.  I have no idea if
there is any chance that gout is complicating the RA, if it's truly only
RA or if there is even a posibility that gout is the predominant problem.

Currently she is seeing only a GP because every rheumatologist she saw
was basically useless..charged 5 times as much and did little that was
any different than the GP...doctor factories..in the door, yup it still
hurts, and out the door.

I guess what I'm looking for here is an opinion as to whether I am just
barking up the stupid tree or whether it's worth beating on the doctor
to look further.  Does or can gout really mimic RA more than just
superficially?  Is there something she can do at home to give
improvement if to is related to gout to help convince a doctor to look
further? (currently trying to get her to drink a ton of water for a few
days).

am I being a dumb-a.s to even think it is possible gout might be the
culprit in addition to or instead of RA?

Thanks for the opinions...I feel like one of those people who searches
for diseases and then makes the symptoms match...however, she's losing
joints fast and it's worth checking into long-shots.

Koz
Harvey R. Stone - 09 Aug 2006 22:40 GMT
> Ok, weird and rambling post here just to fish for some information from
> real people in the real world.
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> Koz

Hi Koz,,,,,,   There are assistance programs that your RD can tell you
about.   Women do not get gout as much as men do but it does happen.   You
need to discuss your thoughts with your doctor to see if he/she has over
looked this.   If your wife does not take a DMARD,,,, the time she will be
with you will be very much shorter and that time will be very painful....
What ever you do,,,,, do it now.   The longer this goes on the more it is
going to cost your wife.
Harv
Koz - 09 Aug 2006 23:41 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>
>  

Appreciate the information....you brought up a whole other can o' worms.
First, if you have any insurance, those drug company "helps" are not
available.  In our case, insurance lowers the cost for most DMARDS to
about $900/month, worth it in my opinion.  However, my wife is NOT a fan
of medications and especially not a fan of medications that are priced
for maximum profitability.  I keep pushing and she keeps digging in her
heels.  Of course those heels hurt more and more each day so maybe
she'll reach a point where she gives in.  Seems she is one of those who
would rather be in extreme pain than face the outlay for a med that she
feels is mostly a scam..no convincing her at this point.

thanks though

Koz
Harvey R. Stone - 10 Aug 2006 02:16 GMT
>>Hi Koz,,,,,,   There are assistance programs that your RD can tell you
>>about.   Women do not get gout as much as men do but it does happen.   You
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Koz

No Koz,,,, I am talking about assistance programs from the drug companys and
other sources....   I am also talking about the other things that RA or
inflam.arth. does to a person OTHER than toes pointing the wrong way or it
being painful to walk.   If your wife fully understood inflam.arth. there
would not be any digging in of the heels.    Please have a talk with you and
your wife with your RD to find out about assistance and the need for DMARDs
to control the effects of RA.    In most cases dealing with inflam.arth.,,
time is not your friend.
    I have RA and I had to have assistance to be able to try Remicade.   My
RD was a great deal of help getting me in touch the right people and getting
their help.   I do wish you and your wife good luck in all that it takes to
deal with doctors, insurance, and inflam.arth.    This newsgroup is a good
place for your wife to come to talk to people that understand what a person
deals with, lives with and find out what worked best for them and her.

Harv

Ps real cherry juice and fruit are really good for gout.   We have heard
that from dozens of people with gout.
RoseB - 09 Aug 2006 22:57 GMT
What are the uric acid levels like? If she has not already done so,
she needs to have her uric acid checked to determine if she has gout.
You can have both gout and RA, by the way.

As far as I know, gout does not cause joint deformity. You talk about
the toes of the feet being distorted- what do you mean? Are they
distorted in shape or do they deviate to the side or over-ride each
other? Gout would cause swelling but not the same type of deformity
that RA causes.
Please check : http://www.arthritis.co.za/diseases.html
to see the disease criteria for RA and you can compare that to the
criteria for gout.

    Rose   @}>->--
    Being educated means that rather than fearing the unknown, one seeks to understand it. RB

    Please remove "Ima" to reply.
Koz - 09 Aug 2006 23:50 GMT
>What are the uric acid levels like? If she has not already done so,
>she needs to have her uric acid checked to determine if she has gout.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>     Please remove "Ima" to reply.
>  

Interesting....have read many sites about bouot and they all say joint
damage..I guess I just assumed that damage could result in deformity in
a manner similar to RA.

Went to the site mentioned and the pics of gout look awfully similar to
some of her joints.  The RA pics are less clear but her hands and feet
are roughly similar but not nearly as similar as they are to the gout
pics...especially the toe pic of the gout and the finger "nubbins" shown.

Anyone have a source for better pics of both diseases?  I am having
trouble finding them.

As far as uric acid, I don't think any doc has ever actually
looked..they have blinders on regarding RA and everything they see in
the blood tests only seems to be looked at relative to the RA.  That's
why I was asking if anyone with experience could tell me a "home remedy"
that would likely show some relief were gout to be involved....it'd give
some ammunition to get the doctor to turn his head a different direction.

Thanks for the info,

Koz
imarosa.1@shaw.ca - 09 Aug 2006 23:57 GMT
One home remedy involves drinking cherry juice. I am not sure of the
biochemistry involved, but cherry juice does seem to have some impact
on gout.
Fire Chief - 09 Aug 2006 23:59 GMT
> I guess what I'm looking for here is an opinion as to whether I am just
> barking up the stupid tree or whether it's worth beating on the doctor
> to look further.

Opinion?

Determine the amount of uric acid in your wife's blood.

From The Arthritis Foundation:

The ONLY way to diagnose gout is for a doctor to remove
and examine fluid from an affected joint, and to find urate
crystals there.

... Cross a dog with a chicken and you'll get pooched eggs.
Califchief - 10 Aug 2006 02:59 GMT
Koz wrote:

> That's why I was asking if anyone with experience
> could tell me a "home remedy"  that would likely
> show some relief were gout to be involved....

The only "home remedy" is a proper diet, avoiding
the types of foods -- alcohol, shell fish, etc. -
posted in this group 1, maybe 2, weeks ago.  Gout
is dependent on purines, and if a person would
eliminate foods rich in purines, the gout would
regress/go away.

... A bachelor's fridge:  Home of the Chia-Meatloaf.
Diane - 10 Aug 2006 04:03 GMT
hi koz,

i feel for you and your wife. most of us know what it's like to hope we
don't really have RA. and maybe she doesn't. but it truly takes a good
rheumatologist to make that call. and it sounds as though she needs to
be on the better dmards. (disease modifying drugs). believe me, the
deformities and damage and "rat bites" are only going to get worse if
it's RA. it can affect her eyes and her internal organs. it can kill.
we've lost a few members of this group over the years.

does your insurance have a catastrophic limit? mine is $4000 a year. i
will reach it next month because i pay $500 every 6 weeks for my
portion of remicade. worth every penny. i just figure at the beginning
of the year i'm going to spend 4K on my meds and i need to get over it.
i know i'm lucky to be able to afford that much.

anyhow, sorry to be blunt and firm. i just wish i'd been able to get
those "designer drugs" back when i could still walk without a limp and
bend my wrists.

best of luck to you both,

diane
Cindy - 10 Aug 2006 15:10 GMT
You have gotten some very good advice here..But like Diane said....RA can
kill...It is the body attacking itself...
And it sounds to me like your wife's condition is getting worse...
She may have gout...but a positive RA test result is pretty significant.
There are other's that will have RA and test negative...These are usually
the ones that get alot of damage before the doctors make the right DX...
I would try and find a good Rhuemy...You could ask for some referrals...I
did...and found a wonderful one...
We have a clinic in OKC that all they do is arthritis and orthopedics...And
that is where I found my Angel...

Hope that you get the answers you are looking for...Oh by the way...I have
psuedogout...That means I have too much calcium crystals in my
joints...nothing to do with diet.But it usually affects the big
joints...like knees and hips and ankles...
Affects my hands and elbows too I believe...

Cindy
> Ok, weird and rambling post here just to fish for some information from
> real people in the real world.
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> Koz
Thumper - 10 Aug 2006 17:44 GMT
>Ok, weird and rambling post here just to fish for some information from
>real people in the real world.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>years ago.  However, in some ways the current symptoms seem more like
>those listed for gout that is mimicing RA.

A positive RA factor is rarely wrong.

>First...the RA diagnosis coincided with later stages of
>menopause...seems that this also tends to be the case with gout in women.

Many of us were first diagnosed after such an incident in our lives.
Many women are diagnosed after a pregnancy.  In my case it was after a
severe bout with the flu.

>The RA stated with the big toe joint on one foot and has progressed so
>that the toes on both feet are now highly distorted.  Pain was only
>"sort of" bilateral...more like one side for a few days and the other to
>match a few days later.  It's in all toes and fingertips now

Bilateral means both sides but doesn't mean that it has to be both
sides at once.  I finally went to the doctor after having my wrists
and hands swell with severe pain.  They alternated first one hand for
a few days then the other.
>Most pain started in her feet, progressed to her ankles and bottom of
>her feet...and of course thumbs, wrists, knees and elbows eventually
>came in. Some big joints like shoulders and hips give problems too which
>doesn't match gout well.

Looking back.  That's where my pain first started but I didn't think
to go to the doctor until a few months later when it affected my
hands.
>Pain levels often come and go in short periods...mostly fine all day and
>suddenly really bad in an hours time, usually later at night.  Pain may
>mostly go away in a joint or area in an hour.  On the other hand, it
>might last days.

Yes, it sounds like RA

>Recently a hard nodule on one of her fingers appeared to come to the
>surface and break...small yellowish crystal seemed to come out.  
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>am I being a dumb-a.s to even think it is possible gout might be the
>culprit in addition to or instead of RA?

You are doing the same thing that many of us did.  We try to find
anything else it could be but RA.
>Thanks for the opinions...I feel like one of those people who searches
>for diseases and then makes the symptoms match...however, she's losing
>joints fast and it's worth checking into long-shots.

It sounds like RA to me and I concur with the others about seeing a
rheumatologist.  If you doctor won't send you to one get another
doctor.  Remember, they work for YOU, not the other way around.
Thumper
>Koz
Koz - 10 Aug 2006 21:49 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
>
>  

Thanks....she's been through the ringer with two different
rheumatologists.  I went to most appointments with her so that we would
both be involved in her care.  Both docs were downright awful.  Seems
that they are few and far between in this local area so the next on the
list is about an hour+ drive away..not a problem for me but wife is in
more "fool me twice, shame on me".  By awful, I mean we joked as long as
we could at the regular visits to the first RD who had a booger wiped on
the wall of the exam room that was not removed after a year of seeing
her....not to mention a bedside manner that was horrible.  The second
was similar in manner but always seemed completely distracted.

Not sure why the wife has turned so far against the idea of DMARDs at
this point..maybe just given up.  I'll keep working on her.  She's
bad..really bad...and it's only going to get worse unless she gives in
and gets something different.  

Koz
Thumper - 11 Aug 2006 04:53 GMT
>>  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 143 lines]
>
>Koz

I just spoke to a guy yesterday that has had RA for 20 years.  I do a
particular form of artwork that he has bought from me and we got
talking about how amazed he is that I can do this work with RA (it
requires quite a bit of manual dexterity.)  He just started on Enbrel
and within 2 weeks stopped taking pain medication because of his
dramatic improvement.  It usually takes longer.  He wishes he could
have taken dmards years ago because now he has severely deformed
hands.  Your wife needs to know that RA is a disease that needs to be
treated aggressively to prevent permanent damage, not only to the
joints but also to organs.

Read this:
http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/str2414.asp
Thumper
Nann Bell - 11 Aug 2006 15:28 GMT
a beloved member of this group, who hasn't been around much due to severe
arthritis, always says, "someone had to graduate at the bottom of the class."
I've had one of those RDs - I even warned the PCP I had at the time not to
send anyone to him.  (My PCP was excellent.)

If you are willing to say what part of the world you live in (generally, not
specifically) there might be someone here who knows a really good RD in the
area.  As long as it appears you will have to drive a ways to get your wife
to a decent RD, you might as well aim for a realy good one.  I know the
feeling - my current RD's main office is 80 miles away and he is the closest
RD to me.  Fortuantely, he is a very good doctor AND he sees patients
twice/month at a satellite office only 30 miles away.  And my PCP is a half
hour away.  I do miss the days of having my docs 1/2 to 7 miles away.  It was
much easier when I feel really lousy.

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

> Thanks....she's been through the ringer with two different
> rheumatologists.  I went to most appointments with her so that we would
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Koz
Califchief - 11 Aug 2006 18:04 GMT
-=> Quoting Hanbellgogators@earthlink to All <=-

> If you are willing to say what part of the world you live in
> (generally, not  specifically) there might be someone here
> who knows a really good RD in the area.

He can also visit The American College of Rheumatology's site
and utilize the search feature to locate a board certified RD
in his area.

... Debate??? ......De fish done swallow debate.
baughfam@bellsouth.net - 21 Aug 2006 10:59 GMT
See how things go when she drinks cherry juice, or eats a
couple dozen of them.

> In hindsight it appears that weeks where she drinks HUGE amounts of
> liquids, the pain levels go down.  However it's easy to force yorself to
> see what you want on such things rather than reality..for example, she
> drinks more when it's hot out and the heat may be the cause of
> improvements.
 
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