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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / July 2006OTP POLITICAL Don't read if you object!
WHAT SENATOR JOHN GLENN SAID: There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January. In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq. When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, consider the following: a. FDR led us into World War II. b. Germany never attacked us; Japan did. >From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ... an average of 112,500 per year. c. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us . >From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of 18,334 per year. d. John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam "conflict" in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. e. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. >From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost . an average of 5,800 per year. f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions. g. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking. But It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation. We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records. It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick. It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!! Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB! The Military morale is high! The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts But Wait there's more! JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR) Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13 Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living. This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of the military. Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn): "How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?" Senator Glenn (D-Ohio): "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank." "I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day... to a veteran's hospital and look those men .. with their mangled bodies in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a job! You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job. You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch those waving flags You stand there, and you think about this nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job? What about you?" For those who don't remember During WWII, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator! If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran. It might not be a bad idea to keep this circulating. In God we Trust check out snopes Gwen. While Senator Glenn did have the exchange with Senator Metzenbaum back in 1974 the top half was not from the Senator Karen > WHAT SENATOR JOHN GLENN SAID: > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > In God we Trust But please do not loose site of the fact that it is the truth and well said. No matter who said it or where. Harv > check out snopes Gwen. While Senator Glenn did have the exchange with > Senator Metzenbaum back in 1974 the top half was not from the Senator [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] >> >> In God we Trust >heck out snopes Gwen. While Senator Glenn did have the exchange with >Senator Metzenbaum back in 1974 the top half was not from the Senator Here are a few other facts you might want to check out: http://icasualties.org/oif/ http://icasualties.org/oif/US_CITY.aspx http://www.obleek.com/iraq/ Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and wounded is precious and this diminishes the sacrifice. These stats don't even estimate the number of innocent Iraqis that have been killed. -- MZ > Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters > in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and > wounded is precious and this diminishes the sacrifice. These stats > don't even estimate the number of innocent Iraqis that have been > killed. -- MZ I only ask you to ask the question,,,,, by whom>???? and from there,,,, why??? People need to realize that there is a great power play taking place in the mid-east. When they struck the US again with air planes this time, it meant war. Some people will not support war no matter who is involved or why. Thank goodness, we have shown the world that no one can attack us without paying the price for it. It is sadly also the truth that we have been attacked many times by the same people or organizations of people and it took 3000 people getting murdered in one day to get us to act and put us to war in our own defense. Harv I guess I missed something along the way was Iraq somehow involved in 9/11? Everything I read indicated they had no involvement. I like facts, blaming Iraq for 9/11 just doesn't jive with the facts. -- MZ > > Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters > > in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Harv >I guess I missed something along the way was Iraq somehow involved in > 9/11? Everything I read indicated they had no involvement. I like > facts, blaming Iraq for 9/11 just doesn't jive with the facts. -- MZ You have read the saying,,, An enemy of my enemy is my friend. I am just saying it took 911 to wake America up to what is taking place and do something about Iraq and Afghanistan. Actually it was the Jews that did a strike on Iraq power plant that slowed up Iraqs ability to make an atom bomb and they already had missiles that would reach the Jews. It may take the Jews again to take out Iran's ability for atomic weapons which would cause another all out war between Israel and its neighbors and that is the last thing this world needs. I do not know the answers to all this and I will have to just watch like the rest of you. I do know that we can not just sit back and let the terrorists have free run over the world. Right now the battle is there and not here and that is Ok with me. Do not forget that Libya was farther along in the race to be able to make an atomic weapon and after they say Iraqs leader crawling out of a hole in the ground,,, they gave it all up and closed the program down. They have decided to join the rest of the world community and that is a great victory that is not talked about for them and us. Harv Good overveiw, Harv! I couldn't have expressed it as well. I wish more people would see this whole terrorist situation as a war. We ARE at war! It's only a different kind and a different place. Better handled on *their* turf, than ours. Enough said for a hot political issue ;-) Nanny >>I guess I missed something along the way was Iraq somehow involved in >> 9/11? Everything I read indicated they had no involvement. I like [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > great victory that is not talked about for them and us. > Harv >Good overveiw, Harv! I couldn't have expressed it as well. I wish more >people would see this whole terrorist situation as a war. We ARE at war! >It's only a different kind and a different place. Better handled on *their* >turf, than ours. Enough said for a hot political issue ;-) Nanny We were on the right track when we chase the terrorists into Afghanistan but Bush then used the deaths of 2500 Americans as an excuse to attack Iraq who HAD NO TERRORISTS. His cronies, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle and the rest had been pushing to attack Iraq for 10 years. Iraq was no threat, had no terrorists and should not have been invaded. This is what the American people now believe. Thumper >>>I guess I missed something along the way was Iraq somehow involved in >>> 9/11? Everything I read indicated they had no involvement. I like [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> great victory that is not talked about for them and us. >> Harv > We were on the right track when we chase the terrorists into > Afghanistan but Bush then used the deaths of 2500 Americans as an > excuse to attack Iraq who HAD NO TERRORISTS. You really do have to learn your history from somewhere else. You would remember the compound where terrorists were trained and a 707 was on the ground for training plane take overs. His cronies, Cheney, > Wolfowitz, Perle and the rest had been pushing to attack Iraq for 10 > years. > Iraq was no threat, had no terrorists and should not have been invaded. After the Jews took out their breeder reactor and they could no longer make atom bombs. No threat,,, what if we had not pushed them out of Kuwait. We should of finished the job the first time and the second war would not of been needed. I guess you just ignore the news that had Saddam killing hundreds of thousand of his own people?? What about his two boys and their rape rooms??? If a person listened to you they were just harmless teens having fun..... This is what the American people now believe. Some of them do but there are wayyy more that are better informed. > Thumper Harv >>Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters >>in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > place in the mid-east. > When they struck the US again with air planes this time, it meant war. The US has been propping up dictators and what we now call terrorists in the region for a very long time, and the Bush family has been intimately involved in it. Anyone who claims this is a black and white issue is either a liar or a moron. How many people died in the Iran-Iraq war? We had a big role in that. Everything must be taken in context if we are going to prevent it from happening again, and that means taking responsibility for our mistakes. It's not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength and maturity. > Some people will not support war no matter who is involved or why. Thank > goodness, we have shown the world that no one can attack us without paying [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Harv  Signaturespammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/ >>>Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters >>>in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the region for a very long time, and the Bush family has been intimately > involved in it. It started way before the Bush family and it did give the Soviet Union a crushing loss and their own form of Viet N in Afgan. Anyone who claims this is a black and white issue is either a liar or a moron. How many people died in the Iran-Iraq war? And again I say who killed them. If you can no see that they have their own kind of civil war going , then you are not as smart as I thought you were. We had a big role in that. Everything must be taken in context if we are > going to prevent it from happening again, and that means taking > responsibility for our mistakes. It is not a mistake to stand up to world dominaion by terrorists . You are going to have to face the fact that this is a war that has been going on for hundreds of years by insane people that want to gain back past glory and only claim it be for religious reasons and it is not going to stop by the rest of the world acting better or accepting guilt for past mistakes. That kind of thinking makes me sick because it is sick and wrong. That kind of thinking could not of gotten a kidnapped teenage soldier back from the kidnappers in Palestine. It took the kind of actions they understand. It's not a sign of weakness, it's a > sign of strength and maturity. Well said in another world. Would you feel different if they had blown up your subway system like they took down our twin towers in NY???? >> Some people will not support war no matter who is involved or why. Thank >> goodness, we have shown the world that no one can attack us without [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> Harv Ps not going to go on and on with this subject even though it is OTP ,,,, what has to be said does not belong here. > You are going to have to face the fact that this is a war that has been > going on for hundreds of years by insane people that want to gain back > past glory and only claim it be for religious reasons and it is not going > to stop by the rest of the world acting better or accepting guilt for past > mistakes. That kind of thinking makes me sick because it is sick and > wrong. There is no such fact to face. This is nonsense spread by racists who want to dismiss the legitimate complaints of the colonized and exploited people that resist as best they can. One notes that in America the right wing war mongers increasingly describe everyone but themselves as insane. How revealing..... >> You are going to have to face the fact that this is a war that has been >> going on for hundreds of years by insane people that want to gain back [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > war mongers increasingly describe everyone but themselves as insane. How > revealing..... I have stayed away from "politics" in this group, but I wish to put in my two cents worth here. It is interesting to be reminded there are two opposing views to everything that happens in life and many in-between. Many of these developed in short term response, some are long held beliefs. I can't help remembering a press conference George W held around the time he started this "pre-emptive" invasion of his. A reporter asked him if he was doing this as revenge for the assassination attempt on his father by Saddam. His response was "You're damn right I am!" I have never seen, nor heard this since. I'm sure it was suppressed and I am sure he was told to shut his pompous ignorant mouth from that point forward. I was very curious where this whole bad blood started in the region and did some research on the internet. I found a sight regarding the history of the Jews that goes back thousands of years and progresses through time. Very interesting reading. Wish I had the sight handy, but a quick search as I did should bring it up easily. I can't help but wonder how a President can get impeached for trying to cover-up a BJ he got in the White House, but we can allow our current administration to continue to act the way it is acting. I fear there is more here than just a war on "terror". I see a war on our Constitution. Somehow the rhetoric has changed to our responsibility to spread democracy throughout the world as if it were some sort of religion. I find myself thinking we are the "bad guys in the black hats" in this situation. We are a huge nation. Smaller countries, who find it easy to change because of their size, don't seem to understand how difficult that same change is to make in this country. It can eventually happen, but it is a long hard process. There are so many things our Gov't does that is classified as secret that as a population we can never understand truthfully why things happen. Shame on us for being so trusting, comfortable, and complacent. Shame on us for allowing the big corporations, particularly the oil companies, to take over and run our country. I have no answers to these problems. I don't get enough information to be able to understand it all thanks to our governments ability to keep things secret! Would be nice to be able to step back and correct past mistakes, but we are stuck with them now without the means to resolve them on a personal level. Just my thoughts.... GaryZ And I want to thank for your very thoughtful reply. No,,, name calling,,, No political quick comments,,, You make some very good things to think about and I like the fact that we can not change the past and can only learn from it if we have open minds. In other words,,,, what would be the most constructive to do now. thanks Harv >>> You are going to have to face the fact that this is a war that has been >>> going on for hundreds of years by insane people that want to gain back [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Just my thoughts.... > GaryZ Gary, I had forgotten about the "revenge" statement made by Bush early on. Interesting how it got buried and forgotten amongst the rubble. Some good points in your post. We have turned our form of democracy into a "religon" and unfortunately we are repeating the atrocities of the 'Crusades'. We just refuse to learn from our history. johnie > I have stayed away from "politics" in this group, but I wish to put in my > two cents worth here. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Just my thoughts.... > GaryZ > I have stayed away from "politics" in this group, but I wish to put in my > two cents worth here. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Just my thoughts.... > GaryZ Gary, I dunno. Seems like those running this country are not interested in learning about any past mistakes. It's all only about money and oil. We marched on to war to get Saddam. Then, it was to find his hidden WMDs. Then, absent WMDs, it was to cripple his intent to gain WMDs. Learning that his intent was already crippled by the first gulf war, and the inspections, it became about spreading democracy. Now, we're hugely stuck, with repubs beating their collective breasts, rattling their sabers, calling for a "stay the course" scenario. Stay the course for what? So more people can die? So we can secure the oil? So we can instill a democracy that they do not want? What the hell are we doing there? In fact, there is no plan to ever leave Iraq. Not ever. Consider the multitude of permanent bases that the Americans have built there, and the 21-building complex for American soldiers and business people, and this talk of pulling out is also a lie. The neocons have been lying like rugs since November 2000. Lies that constitute high crimes and misdemeaners. Not that Clinton blow job nonsense. But really bad crimes, and lies, and deaths and destruction. They have no interest in learning from past mistakes. As far as they are concerned, it's just business as usual. SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > They have no interest in learning from past mistakes. As far as they > are concerned, it's just business as usual. And we are still in Germany, Japan, BOSNIA, on and on and on. The only place we are not still in is Viet. Nam where people like you had a great victory. I am going to tell you something that you are not going to like Di. The American people do not think like you and do not see the world like you do. Now,,, the part you are not going to like. The house is not going to change and the senate is moving toward your ideas,,,,some hope for you after all. I know you think it would be ideal for Hillary to win the president and Bill to move into Coakyyys spot in the UN. Just think how much corruption could be had then. :-) The whole world would get a blow job then. LOL Harv >> They have no interest in learning from past mistakes. As far as they >> are concerned, it's just business as usual. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >job then. LOL >Harv Harvey, you're on the wrong side of this one. Thumper > > They have no interest in learning from past mistakes. As far as they > > are concerned, it's just business as usual. > > And we are still in Germany, Japan, BOSNIA, on and on and on. The only > place we are not still in is Viet. Nam where people like you had a great > victory. People like me!!?? Sheesh....... > I am going to tell you something that you are not going to like > Di. Not a question of whether I like it or not. It's not about me. > The American people do not think like you and do not see the world > like you do. Now,,, the part you are not going to like. The house is not > going to change and the senate is moving toward your ideas,,,,some hope for > you after all. And, you know this ..... how? But, as long as there are some checks and balances in government. Right now, there's nothing. Repubs have taken over all three branches of government, and they did it in a very suspect manner, which has been investigated and reported on numerous times. Part of their corruption thang. > I know you think it would be ideal for Hillary to win the > president and Bill to move into Coakyyys spot in the UN. Just think how > much corruption could be had then. :-) The whole world would get a blow > job then. LOL > Harv This is, by most historical accounts, the most corrupt administration in US history. Clinton's blow job did not sacrifice people's lives. Nor did his lying about it. And, aside from lying about a blow job, what corruption was he actually involved in? And please, don't list Whitewater, that losing deal that Hillary became sucked into. "Clinton lied, but no one died." As for Hillary, the only way she'd get my vote is if she won the Democratic nod. I'd support her over a republican any day and any where. But, I sure hope she doesn't. I am not a Hillary fan by a long shot. She's just republican lite. I'd support Russ Feingold or Al Gore or Barak Obama (though he's not ready) or Murtha. I dunno. Time and the primary will tell. SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) >>> You are going to have to face the fact that this is a war that has been >>> going on for hundreds of years by insane people that want to gain back >>> past glory and only claim it be for religious reasons and it is not >>> going to stop by the rest of the world acting better or accepting guilt >>> for past mistakes. That kind of thinking makes me sick because it is >>> sick and wrong. >> There is no such fact to face. This is nonsense spread by racists who >> want to dismiss the legitimate complaints of the colonized and exploited >> people that resist as best they can. One notes that in America the right >> wing war mongers increasingly describe everyone but themselves as insane. >> How revealing..... > I was very curious where this whole bad blood started in the region and > did some research on the internet. I found a sight regarding the history [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just my thoughts.... > GaryZ I had intended to expand a bit on this "how did we get to be the bad guys to begin with", but I drifted off into other areas. So allow me to correct that mistake. As I understand from reading/researching this question, I found this only goes back to the establishment of the state of Israel by the United Nations back around 1948. Post world war two the Jewish gathered from around the world in where Israel currently is located. It was termed Zionist movement. The U.N. split Palestine in two giving half to the Zionists and half to the Palestinians. The Arab world saw this as a gross injustice to the Palestinians. The U.S. of course back the Israeli regime I guess to gain a foothold in the Middle East which it didn't have. Can we say there is lots of oil in the area??! Seems since that time we have been the hated bad guys by the Arab Nations in general. So, beyond that bad blood thing..... George senior is head of CIA for however long. What were they doing? We probably will never know. George senior is elected President. Saddam invades Kuwait, George senior takes it back. Saddam retaliates with assassination attempt. Things stew for awhile while Clinton is in office. George W gets elected. Almost immediately 9/11 happens. Any correlation there? Not by Saddam, but by angry Arabs. We go after terrorists, very good and justifiable reaction. But, we also go after Saddam for revenge. Not a good or justifiable reaction. This is how I understand the whole thing. Where I may be wrong, please correct the process. GaryZ >>>> You are going to have to face the fact that this is a war that has been >>>> going on for hundreds of years by insane people that want to gain back [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> time. >> Very interesting reading. Yes. Jews muslims and others lived side by side, not entirely without conflict, but nothing remotely like the histroy of Europe, for centuries. The major troubles were caused by European crusaders and other invaders. > I had intended to expand a bit on this "how did we get to be the bad guys > to begin with", but I drifted off into other areas. > So allow me to correct that mistake. As I understand from > reading/researching this question, I found this only goes back to the > establishment of the state of Israel No. It goes back before that to European colonialism, particularly by the British and then the Americans. Now it is almost entirely a result of American foreign policy with the Israelis serving as an instrument. > No. It goes back before that to European colonialism, particularly by the > British and then the Americans. Now it is almost entirely a result of > American foreign policy with the Israelis serving as an instrument. The Palestinians are also pawns in this Mideast game being played out between the US, the Arab world, and the UN, as well as Israel. SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) >> No. It goes back before that to European colonialism, particularly by >> the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Palestinians are also pawns in this Mideast game being played out > between the US, the Arab world, and the UN, as well as Israel. Yes. and the solution is to get out and leave people alone. The only problem with that is logistics; there is no way to get all the troops, spies, and so on out of there fast enough, but I believe in American ingenuity. With a little clever planning they could all be home by the weekend. > No. It goes back before that to European colonialism, particularly by the > British and then the Americans. Now it is almost entirely a result of > American foreign policy with the Israelis serving as an instrument. Things were pretty peaceful in the mid-east at one time /relatively speaking/ then along came the 'Crusades' which of course involved "crusaders" determined to build a safe passage to the 'birthplace of christ'. This of course meant taking over many muslem cities, killing the inhabitants and replacing them with gullible european peasants to guard the routes for 'christian pilgrims' to travel. It became a sacred calling to become a "route warrior" and great rewards were promised those "christian soldiers" for the number of muslims they slaughtered. Sound familiar. johnie > I had intended to expand a bit on this "how did we get to be the bad guys to > begin with", but I drifted off into other areas. > So allow me to correct that mistake. As I understand from > reading/researching this question, I found this only goes back to the > establishment of the state of Israel by the United Nations back around 1948. It's called the Partition Plan > Post world war two the Jewish gathered from around the world in where Israel > currently is located. It was termed Zionist movement. The U.N. split > Palestine in two giving half to the Zionists and half to the Palestinians. > The Arab world saw this as a gross injustice to the Palestinians. And, the Jews considered it a return to their homeland, particularly when, after WWII, Jews were being turned away from all countries around the world. They needed some place to go, and the British were happy to assist them in getting the Jews there, instead of coming to England. > The U.S. > of course back the Israeli regime I guess to gain a foothold in the Middle > East which it didn't have. Can we say there is lots of oil in the area??! > Seems since that time we have been the hated bad guys by the Arab Nations in > general. I think the US backed Israel because it was/is the only democratic country in the Mideast. I don't think the Israelis have much if any oil. > So, beyond that bad blood thing..... > George senior is head of CIA for however long. What were they doing? We [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > correct the process. > GaryZ Now, George senior is involved with the Carlyle Group, along with the Saudis, which is the largest military industrial complex in the world. They make tons of money from wars, otherwise known as war profiteering. If you don't know them, do a google search on Carlyle Group. Very illuminating stuff. I believe that the neocons have been scheming and positioning themselves since Reagan was prez. They sure found thier incompetent lil dupe in dubya, who's only "qualification" for the White Wash, I mean House, was that his daddy was prez. It's all playing out now. 9/11 was the catalyst for them to go after Saddam. 9/11 was a convenience for them. Having said that, I don't think that there was any conspiracy by any of the neocons to undertake 9/11. I just cannot believe that. I do think, howevever, that they were so fraught with conflicts of interest (how do you spell "corruption"?) that they just turned a blind eye to the warning signs. SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) Thanks for the extra info Di. >> The U.S. >> of course back the Israeli regime I guess to gain a foothold in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > country in the Mideast. I don't think the Israelis have much if any > oil. Yes, no oil in Israel. The whole of the middle east is another story and anyplace to grab a "hold" in the area would have done. >> I had intended to expand a bit on this "how did we get to be the bad guys >> to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the world. They needed some place to go, and the British were happy to > assist them in getting the Jews there, instead of coming to England. Might I suggest that everyone goes to this particular website (below these comments) in order to get an ACCURATE history of the Mid-East conflict. Everyone will find that the USA had nothing to do with the conflict to begin with. It was primarily the French and the British, and when the UN tried to settle the conflict, it was the Arabs who rejected the settlement offered by the UN, which the Arabs NOW try to use the very terms of that settlement, WHICH THEY REJECTED, to claim that it is Israel who is in violation of the UN accords! Learn the REAL history of the conflict in the Mid-East before criticizing the USA for trying to finally bring stability to the region, because the conflict goes back 6000 years - LONG before the USA was even a dream in someone's mind! Any country, and every country that tries to bring stability to the region is drawn into the conflict! You people have absolutely no idea what you are arguing about, or talking about! http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm >> The U.S. >> of course back the Israeli regime I guess to gain a foothold in the [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > you spell "corruption"?) that they just turned a blind eye to the > warning signs. > Might I suggest that everyone goes to this particular website (below these > comments) in order to get an ACCURATE history of the Mid-East conflict. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm THANK YOU! SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) >> Any country, and every country that tries to bring >> stability to the region is drawn into the conflict! You people have >> absolutely no idea what you are arguing about, or talking about! This is the old argument that everything is the fault of those crazy arabs. Even the hapless innocent Americans have been baffled and confused by those crazy arabs who should have been reasonable and simply given up their ancestral land like good little rational people. The fact is that the jews came out of Europe and have had sixty years to make peace, their responsibility being the new kids on the block. They have utterly failed to do so and have been propped up in their failure at every turn by America. The crowning irony is that they once had a reputation as progressive and brave resisters of tyrrany and have now gathered a reputation as cruel and oppressive tyrants. A sad legacy for a once potentially great nation. Well, that's enough of that. My fingers hurt and I'm going for some darvon. Anyone wishing to carry on this topic with my very good self can mail directly. ciao. >>>Any country, and every country that tries to bring >>>stability to the region is drawn into the conflict! You people have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > responsibility being the new kids on the block. They have utterly failed to > do so and have been propped up in their failure at every turn by America. Who saved Jordan from being overrun by Palestinians backed with syrian and russian commanders and russian hardware? On the other note, who decided to wait for the holiest day of the jewish calendar and then launch an attack? (hint: the answer is not just one nation...) Who gave back the sinai despite it having been taken in a conflict it did not start but it sure as sh.t finished? The fact is, the Jews want to be left alone. The founding of Israel will always be controversial, but it's here to stay. If you can't figure that out, oh well, please continue ranting like a kook. Do you /really/ think that if mexico were launching rocket attacks over the border into Texas, a territory we stole from them, we wouldn't retaliate? How many suicide bombings would we put up with before we made an incursion into Mexico and did a little comething about it? Please, go find another conspiracy theory before the government decides to turn off the transmitters that it had the dentist install in your teeth. > The fact is, the Jews want to be left alone. The founding of Israel > willalways be controversial, but > it's here to stay. If you can't figure thatout, oh well, please continue > ranting like a kook. It is not the case that people who look at things differently are kooks. I known that Israelis always like to portray themselves as innocent bystanders who just want to be left alone, but this is somewhat disengenuous. I heard a fellow on NPR recently making just this case that he was just an innocent Jew wanting to be left alone to live in peace on his west bank settlement. He had been born in Brooklyn and had moved to Israel a few years before. It really makes no sense. > Do you /really/ thinkthat if mexico were launching rocket attacks over the > border into Texas,a territory we stole from them, we wouldn't retaliate? > How many suicidebombings would we put up with before we made an incursion > into Mexicoand did a little comething about it? Well, with the current administation declaing war on the worl for nothing more than some Saudis knocking down some government buildings on the east coast I suppose they would put up with none at all. Israelis will have to continue to suffer such things until they figure out how to live in harmony with their neighbors. > Please, go find another conspiracy theory before the government decidesto > turn off the transmitters that it had the dentist install in your teeth. Sorry, but I don't know what this means. Are you suggesting that anyone who holds a different point of view is some sort victim of delusion? That is a fatally flawed line of thought. Unless you think yourself infallable, not a traditional Jewish idea, you should consider other points of view. That was once the genius of Jewish education when it was said that when you had two Jews you had three points of view. Now it is, apparently, different. As for conspiracies, there probably is an international Jewish conspiracy. There is probalby an international Masonic conspiracy. There are probably communist, catholic, islamic, capitalist, militarist, and subgenius conspiracies. So what? If a tin foil hat would help I'd make one. If a belief in Moisha Dhayan's final solution to the Palestinian problem would help I might support that, butI'm dubious. I learned skepticism from my father. My original point was simply that the claim that the middle east is insoluble because of some supposed ancient bad blood and irrational feuding is nonsense. It is largely the product of twentieth century capitalist imperialism. That's all. Now, if you'll excuse me I have to do my part for the international Darvon conspiracy to bring pain down to a bearable level. Ciao. -- James Stewart 116 Grandview #8 Chamberlain, SD 57325 812-418-0716 jnstewar@midstatesd.net The Jews were driven out of their land first. God gave it to them and it will all one day be theirs again. It may not happen until Christ returns, but it will happen. Gwen >>> Any country, and every country that tries to bring >>> stability to the region is drawn into the conflict! You people have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > darvon. Anyone wishing to carry on this topic with my very good self can > mail directly. ciao. > The Jews were driven out of their land first. God gave it to them and it > will all one day be theirs again. Fine. In the mean time maybe they should make peace with their neighbors. The bible doesn't mention letting them do as they please. It sort of suggests that they are expected to behave well. >> The Jews were driven out of their land first. God gave it to them and it >> will all one day be theirs again. > > Fine. In the mean time maybe they should make peace with their neighbors. > The bible doesn't mention letting them do as they please. It sort of > suggests that they are expected to behave well. If you are one of those people that thinks a person or gov. can deal with these people like normal people and governments,,,,, there really is no reason to respond to anything you post. One thing for sure terrorists love you and people that think like you. Make peace my a.s,,,, they gave them enough land for the Palestians to have a home..... How were they thanked???? By voting in the terrorists to run their country. How do you make peace with 170 rockets into the cites in a day..???? To have peace with dedicated terrorists,,, you have to kick some royal a.s and hard. You have to get their attention and count people that are kidnapped as dead. I am not going to say anymore and there is more that should be said but not in this newsgroup. Harv Good post. It is important that we not forget who created these monsters. Especially in light of the fact that we have not learned anything from our foreign policy stupidity. thanks, johnie > >>Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters > >>in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > http://www.abmdr.org.au/ > http://www.marrow.org/ Hey Johnie, long time no hear from. I guess we were not meant to talk in email. I answer your emails months ago and never heard from you again. I am sure you did write and I just didn't get them. I don't know why that is happening. Know that I am always thinking of you. My buddy in arthritis and addisons. SignatureLove and hugs Jo (\__/) .~ ~. )) /O O ./ .' {O__, \ { / . . ) \ |-| '-' \ } )) Warning: squirrels. .( _( )_.' '---.~_ _ _& SJ, I email about once a week. I just sent one from here but it looks like the addy I always use. Please let me know if you get it (or not). okay johnie > Hey Johnie, long time no hear from. I guess we were not meant to talk in > email. I answer your emails months ago and never heard from you again. I am [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > .( _( )_.' > '---.~_ _ _& got it answered it and one on the way to you. SignatureLove and hugs Jo (\__/) .~ ~. )) /O O ./ .' {O__, \ { / . . ) \ |-| '-' \ } )) Warning: squirrels. .( _( )_.' '---.~_ _ _& > SJ, I email about once a week. I just sent one from here but it looks > like the addy I always use. Please let me know if you get it (or not). [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> .( _( )_.' >> '---.~_ _ _& > > Half the stuff sent via email is not factual. I don't see reporters > > in Detroit wearing flak jackets. Everyone of those causalities and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Harv But, Harv, Iraq never had anything to do with 9/11, so the argument that we were attacked and it justified us going there is specious. Also, I don't understand how 3,000 American dead justifies the killing of 50- 100,000 Iraqis? It doesn't make sense. We destroyed the country to capture one man? That's quite a high price to capture Saddam, don't you think? They had nothing to do with 9/11 any more than Saddam did. No question he's a bad guy, but if he bombed Israel, don't you think Israel would have demolished them in retaliation? Oh yes, it's that retaliation thing. Retaliating against Afghanistan was acceptable, even to us liberals. But a pre-emptive attack on Iraq was illegal, immoral, and a crime against humanity. Had we stayed in Afghanistan to complete the job, it wouldn't be falling back into the hands of the Taliban and Al Qaida again, and we wouldn't need to fight a war on terror. If we spent that money instead to secure this country instead of bombing Iraq back into the stone age, we'd all be safer. Fact is, we're less safe than we were before attacking Iraq. We've played right into bin Laden's hand, and gave him the war he wanted. Now, we have more enemies than we ever had. Iraq was a dispiccable venture undertaken by dispiccably dishonest people who only had two things on their collective minds - money and oil. Miggod, there is so much talk about impeachment these days coming from all over the country. Huge deficits, squandered money, taxes for the rich, more poverty than ever, illegal spying, desecrating the environment, more taxes for the rich, and then there's that dang illegal war thang. Dubya and his dick should be tried for war crimes at the Hague, and spend the rest of their rotten lives behind bars. How's that for POLITICAL? SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > But, Harv, Iraq never had anything to do with 9/11, so the argument that > we were attacked and it justified us going there is specious. Also, I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > How's that for POLITICAL? geez, i miss you kiddo... johnie Di, you are too funny. Dubya and his Dick almost had me on the floor laughing. Ann > Di, you are too funny. Dubya and his Dick almost had me on the floor > laughing. > > Ann hehehehe.............. SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > ........................ > > > > How's that for POLITICAL? > > geez, i miss you kiddo... > johnie I miss you too, Johnie. SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > How's that for POLITICAL? jhugh says... > > geez, i miss you kiddo... Di replys: > I miss you too, Johnie. jhugh laments: >> so when you gonna come visit. I know you need a trip to the 'southwest'... johnie > > How's that for POLITICAL? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> so when you gonna come visit. I know you need a trip to the 'southwest'... > johnie Di sighs: I just emptied my bank accounts for vet bills for two sick cats. Unless I get the gov't to pay my trip, I ain't goin' nowhere. I can't even visit my kids in Minneapolis. <sigh> SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > Di sighs: I just emptied my bank accounts for vet bills for two > sick cats. Unless I get the gov't to pay my trip, I ain't goin' > nowhere. I can't even visit my kids in Minneapolis. <sigh> To bad. :-( It was clear & warm 77°F with a dew point in the 45°F range. :-) Sarah wanted to go outside so bad, but she can't get down the stairs for another week. GramPaHugs, Alex, SignatureAny information is included for informational or entertainment purposes only, is based on my personal experiences & is an expression of my opinion. **************************************************** * Love radiating from 45.10n x 93.30w M/SP Mn * http://home.mn.rr.com/apbiii * http://grampahugs.is-a-geek.org/ * http://www.goldenmist.org **************************************************** > > Di sighs: I just emptied my bank accounts for vet bills for two > > sick cats. Unless I get the gov't to pay my trip, I ain't goin' [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > GramPaHugs, > Alex, You live in Minneapolis? Wow! If I ever get there, I'd love to meet you guys. That would be great. And, I sure hope Sarah feels better soon. One more week........ tell her to hang tough for me. hugs back at ya SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > abarna@mn.rr.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > hugs back at ya We live in Fridley which was here before Minneapolis. :-) Your kids will know where Fridley is. ^_^ If you make it up here be sure to call first (I'm in the Minneapolis book) so I can clear off a chair & move some of the dust bunnies around :-) GramPaHugs, Alex, SignatureAny information is included for informational or entertainment purposes only, is based on my personal experiences & is an expression of my opinion. **************************************************** * Love radiating from 45.10n x 93.30w M/SP Mn * http://home.mn.rr.com/apbiii * http://grampahugs.is-a-geek.org/ * http://www.goldenmist.org **************************************************** > > abarna@mn.rr.com says... > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > GramPaHugs, > Alex, I'm now hoping maybe this fall. Maybe October. As for your dust bunnies, their cousins live along all the walls and under the beds and chairs throughout my house. But, I bet mine have more fur. Zuki is a shedding machine. I'll definitely give you a call if I ever make it there. <sigh> SignatureDi zinkadoodle at gmail dot com www.pbase.com/di www.dustydoggie.blogspot.com (WARNING: Very Political) > We live in Fridley which was here before Minneapolis. :-) Your kids > will know where Fridley is. ^_^ If you make it up here be sure to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > GramPaHugs, > Alex, Hey, Alex! One of Mike's long-time buddies lives in Roseville and a friend of mine from high school lives in Burnsville. Next time we're over that way....... but now that Mike has a more tradtional type job, I don't know when we'll make it next :( SignatureNann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare Hi Nann, > On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 20:49:06 -0400, Alex wrote > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Hey, Alex! One of Mike's long-time buddies lives in Roseville and > a friend of mine from high school lives in Burnsville. The nursing home Lucille (my MIL) is in is in Roseville. > Next time we're over that way....... but now that Mike has a more > tradtional type job, I don't know when we'll make it next :( I couldn't wait until I could retire so I could travel & now I'm retired & my spine is so rotten I can't ride in a car or bus for more than a few miles. :-( GramPaHugs, Alex, SignatureAny information is included for informational or entertainment purposes only, is based on my personal experiences & is an expression of my opinion. **************************************************** * Love radiating from 45.10n x 93.30w M/SP Mn * http://home.mn.rr.com/apbiii * http://grampahugs.is-a-geek.org/ * http://www.goldenmist.org **************************************************** > I couldn't wait until I could retire so I could travel & now I'm > retired & my spine is so rotten I can't ride in a car or bus for more > than a few miles. :-( > > GramPaHugs, > Alex, LOL - Mike says he did his retirement first, while he was young enough to enjoy it and now he's doing the work phase. The adjustment to having "only" 4 weeks off per year has been hard on him! LOL I think he has our vacations planned through 2009 thus far. (of course, one week is taken each year to spend Christmas with our family) I think those years of working various jobs as needed and doing art shows spoiled him. We both have family examples that encourage us to do what we can while we can. That's why we decided to do Italy when we were both well enough and I'm glad of it - now with the fibro, I couldn't do it the way we did back in '97. And I know my camping days are limited by how long Mike is in shape to do the heavier hand stuff - a concern with our age difference, but fortunately, he's a healthy 61. SignatureNann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare > LOL - Mike says he did his retirement first, while he was young enough to > enjoy it and now he's doing the work phase. nann, this is how lucy and i approached our lives beginning in the early 80s. We set our consulting gigs up to only work 3 to 6 months a year and travelled and did our personal art work the rest of the time. Actually we haven't really stopped doing it that way. lol...except that lucy does put in a sorta 9 month gig with her professor job. We still live like 20 year old kids and we still wouldn't have done it any other way. When we had some serious 'energy' was when we would put together enough cash to take 1 to 2 years off every 3rd or 4th year. Those memories get me thru lots of painful days. Mike got it right especially if he enjoys the work he is doing now. high desert hooligan hugs, johnie Johnnie, hope things are going well for you and Lucy. I think of you often. It sounds like you did well with your planning and gigs and such. I enjoyed hearing how you did it. SignatureLove and hugs Jo (\__/) .~ ~. )) /O O ./ .' {O__, \ { / . . ) \ |-| '-' \ } )) Warning: squirrels. .( _( )_.' '---.~_ _ _& >> LOL - Mike says he did his retirement first, while he was young enough to >> enjoy it and now he's doing the work phase. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > high desert hooligan hugs, > johnie |
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