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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / May 2004

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improvement question

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Hillary Israeli - 18 May 2004 22:02 GMT
My LO w/AD is an elderly gentleman who was diagnosed about 7 or 8 years
ago. When I first met him about 6 or 7 years ago he was recognizably
impaired only to those who knew him (I didn't realize until I was told).
Since then he has forgotten who I am (I married in to the family),
forgotten his other family members - the only people he has recognized for
the past six months are his wife and daughter and even his daughter, not
always. He has been in the "sits around and does nothing" stage for about
a year. He can't hold a conversation.

A couple of weeks ago corticosteroids were added to his medication
regimen. This past week he has been improved. The doctor says this is
unexpected from the steroids, which were for something else (I don't know
what). However, he's been a lot more alert and responsive this week. My
husband visited him today, and he said my husband's name, and appeared
interested in discussion of our kids.

Does anyone recognize this kind of sudden improvement so far into the
disease?

Signature

    hillary israeli vmd  http://www.hillary.net  info@hillary.net
               "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
                not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

Darryl - 18 May 2004 22:49 GMT
>My LO w/AD is an elderly gentleman who was diagnosed about 7 or 8 years
>ago. When I first met him about 6 or 7 years ago he was recognizably
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Does anyone recognize this kind of sudden improvement so far into the
>disease?

Corticosteroids may be expected to cause (I hesistated at the use of
this word) or worsen cognitive impairment.  Since you've seen the
opposite effect, I'd say that it's worth investigating further.
Depending on who made the original diagnosis, perhaps it's time for a
geriatric specialist.  Out of curiosity, do you know how the diagnosis
of AD was arrived at? (e.g., Mini-Mental State Exam, MRI, etc.)  Does
he see a neurologist for somewhat regular checkups?  What other AD
medications is he on?  Does he have other medical problems that are
being treated?  Phew!  No matter what happens, enjoy this time.

Darryl.

p.s.,  here's an article that discusses corticosteroids and
impairment...

Belanoff, J. K., K. Gross, et al. (2001). "Corticosteroids and
cognition." J Psychiatr Res 35(3): 127-45.
The brain is a major target organ for corticosteroids. It has been
observed that excessive circulatory levels of endogenous and exogenous
corticosteroids are frequently associated with cognitive impairment in
a wide variety of clinical disease states. Cognition and low levels of
corticosteroids have been less well studied. In this paper we review
the literature on glucocorticosteroid effects on cognition and
delineate specific functions that appear to be causally affected. We
draw a possible connection to specific areas of brain perturbation,
including the hippocampus and frontal lobe regions. The possibility
that cognitive dysfunction caused by glucocorticoids can be
pharmacologically managed is introduced.
Darryl - 19 May 2004 04:32 GMT
As a quick follow-up to my post:  apparently it's common for people
using corticosteroids to feel stimulated (similar to a fight or flight
response) for period of up to several days.

Corticosteroids do reduce pain and inflammation although they
accomplish this by supressing the immune system.  On the other hand,
nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS such as aspirin and
naproxen) have been investigated as a treatment of dementia and they
have seen some success, however, the jury is still out.

Recently we learned that nicotine causes downregulation of microglia
(a cause of inflammation) in the brain.  Corticosteroids also inhibit
microglia.  So while corticosteroid use may cause or worsen cognitive
impairment, perhaps once the disease has progressed to a certain
point, slowing down the immune system (at least temporarily) is a good
thing.  Keep us updated!

Darryl.

>Corticosteroids may be expected to cause (I hesistated at the use of
>this word) or worsen cognitive impairment.  Since you've seen the
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>that cognitive dysfunction caused by glucocorticoids can be
>pharmacologically managed is introduced.
Hillary Israeli - 19 May 2004 12:56 GMT
*Corticosteroids do reduce pain and inflammation although they
*accomplish this by supressing the immune system.  On the other hand,

That's not how they reduce inflammation. They DO have a lymphocytotoxic
effect (which is why they are so great for treating lymphosarcomas), which
is obviously immunosuppressive. But the antiinflammatory effects are
mostly due to direct corticosteroid inhibition of COX-2, and secondary
inhibition of arachidonic acid release due to phospholipase A2 inhibition.
Without the arachidonic acid there can be no inflammatory prostaglandin
release, regardless of the presence of COX-2!

At least, that is my understanding.

*Recently we learned that nicotine causes downregulation of microglia
*(a cause of inflammation) in the brain.  Corticosteroids also inhibit
*microglia.  So while corticosteroid use may cause or worsen cognitive

I don't understand. Microglia, if I recall correctly, are phagocytes of
the brain, right? Neuro was not my favorite class :). Are you saying that
they themselves cause inflammation?? Or - wait - are you saying that their
downregulation by nicotine causes inflammation??

In any case, I'm just glad our LO is doing a bit better at this point in
time. I will definitely update with changes.

Signature

    hillary israeli vmd  http://www.hillary.net  info@hillary.net
               "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
                not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

Darryl - 19 May 2004 22:56 GMT
>*Corticosteroids do reduce pain and inflammation although they
>*accomplish this by supressing the immune system.  On the other hand,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Without the arachidonic acid there can be no inflammatory prostaglandin
>release, regardless of the presence of COX-2!

I always thought that the most important effect of corticosteroid use
in pain relief was the of supression of T-cell activation and the
inhibition of cytokine and effector molecule production.  So steroids
stimulate the production of lipocortin that inhibits Phosphlipase A2?

>At least, that is my understanding.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I don't understand. Microglia, if I recall correctly, are phagocytes of
>the brain, right? Neuro was not my favorite class :).

Yes.

>Are you saying that
>they themselves cause inflammation??

Yes :-)

>Or - wait - are you saying that their
>downregulation by nicotine causes inflammation??

In AD, it is thought that excessive microglial activation leads to
inflammation and that negative regulation of microglia by nicotine may
prevent this from occurring.  There seems to be an inverse correlation
between smoking and the onset of AD and Parkinson's disease.  

>In any case, I'm just glad our LO is doing a bit better at this point in
>time. I will definitely update with changes.

Yes, it's always good to hear of little successes (and learn something
in the process :-)

Darryl.
Songbird - 19 May 2004 13:19 GMT
> As a quick follow-up to my post:  apparently it's common for people
> using corticosteroids to feel stimulated (similar to a fight or flight
> response) for period of up to several days.

I've had to take corticosteroids from tiem to time to bring allergy symptoms
under control. In my case, they do produce a mania of sorts, usually
manifested in my case by a burst of house cleaning. (Not my normal thing at
all -- when I go into this, my husband looks at all the activity and says
"Oh, that's right, you're on durgs again, aren't you?") I can easily see
where this might spur more interaction or talkativeness. I usually find the
effect only lasts 48 to 72 hours, though, even if I am on a 7- or 10-day
courseof meds.

Songbird
Dennis P. Harris - 20 May 2004 03:14 GMT
> I've had to take corticosteroids from tiem to time to bring allergy symptoms
> under control.

i've been doing nasal steroids for sinus allergy problems for
about 6 months, and i've noticed that i sleep much less and seem
to have more energy, though i'm not exercising as much as i did
before i started my current job.  darryl could probably answer
this one:  is budesonide a corticosteroid?
Darryl - 24 May 2004 19:24 GMT
>> I've had to take corticosteroids from tiem to time to bring allergy symptoms
>> under control.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>before i started my current job.  darryl could probably answer
>this one:  is budesonide a corticosteroid?

Yes, budesonide is a corticosteroid, but I had to look that one up ;-)

Darryl.
Gwen Love - 20 May 2004 04:41 GMT
Gee, I wish my doc would put me on some.  I would love to have the energy
to get my house cleaned up!
Gwen

Signature

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When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and swing.
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| > As a quick follow-up to my post:  apparently it's common for people
| > using corticosteroids to feel stimulated (similar to a fight or flight
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| Songbird
Glenfiddich - 18 May 2004 23:07 GMT
>My LO w/AD is an elderly gentleman who was diagnosed about 7 or 8 years
>ago. When I first met him about 6 or 7 years ago he was recognizably
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Does anyone recognize this kind of sudden improvement so far into the
>disease?

Sorry, I don't have a clue why he showed this improvement - but it's
ALWAYS important to remember that people with AD can get any of
the other problems to which we are all subject, and any of these
*may* make the AD seem worse.

Because of the AD, it's hard to diagnose those 'extra' diseases and
conditions, as the patient is often unable to explain what's wrong.
It's up to us caregivers to spot the 'odd' symptoms and tell the
doctor.

I've often thought that doctors dealing with AD should do
a stint with a veterinarian, to see how to diagnose diseases
without any help from the patient!
Evelyn Ruut - 18 May 2004 23:25 GMT
> My LO w/AD is an elderly gentleman who was diagnosed about 7 or 8 years
> ago. When I first met him about 6 or 7 years ago he was recognizably
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Does anyone recognize this kind of sudden improvement so far into the
> disease?

Hilary I have read all the replies here, and I reserved my answer till now,
but it was the first thought that came into my head when I read your post
above.

For some odd reason, every now and again it is as though the "wires" connect
in the brain.   My mother in law has had the occasional good day too.

It may not have been anything to do with the medication.

Was he well rested?   Ida is always better after she is well rested.   She
is much more scattered and confused when she is tired.

Sometimes there is no identifiable reason at all when they get a good day.

My advice is to simply enjoy it when it happens.

Signature

Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

Adelle D. Stavis, Esq. - 18 May 2004 23:49 GMT
Steroids reduce inflammation. You should ask his doctor whether there are
any inflammatory conditions which reduce oxygen to the brain, or impede the
neurological process.

I know that MS and arthritis patients who get 'brain fog,' a kind of
slowness of thinking and slight trouble thinking logically report that it
goes away when on steroids.

As someone else said, just because he has a dementia, does not mean that
another medical process isn't happening that is making the dementia seem
more advanced

Signature

Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.

> My LO w/AD is an elderly gentleman who was diagnosed about 7 or 8 years
> ago. When I first met him about 6 or 7 years ago he was recognizably
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Does anyone recognize this kind of sudden improvement so far into the
> disease?
Jennie - 19 May 2004 00:03 GMT
Hillary,

I have heard of this type of improvement in response to certain painkillers.
There's a local pharmacologist who writes a weekly column for our newspaper;
sometimes the format is question and answer.  Twice, people with AD
relatives have written in saying that their LO exhibited a marked
improvement while on the pain killers.  (One was Oxycontin, I forget what
the other was).  Both of the LO's were taking painkillers because they had
had some type of surgery.  One person remarked that their mother kind of
"woke up" from her AD fog and was much more like her old self.
Unfortunately, the "improvement" disappeared in both cases after the pain
killers were stopped.

Be aware that with AD, people can exhibit ups and downs from day to day or
week to week.  Sometimes, you can see a temporary improvement - what's
important is whether it is consistent and long-term.

- Jennie

> My LO w/AD is an elderly gentleman who was diagnosed about 7 or 8 years
> ago. When I first met him about 6 or 7 years ago he was recognizably
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Does anyone recognize this kind of sudden improvement so far into the
> disease?
Hillary Israeli - 19 May 2004 02:03 GMT
*Hillary,
*
*I have heard of this type of improvement in response to certain painkillers.

Oooh. That's an interesting idea. I bet the steroids do reduce his pain;
he had one knee replacement surgery about four or five months before he
lost the ability to carry on any kind of conversation (and a small heart
attack during recovery), and his other knee was almost as bad (the plan
had originally been to do that knee later I think, but it wasn't possible
after all - he'd never tolerate another general anesthesia and
hospitalization without totally decompensating). So the steroids probably
help the degenerative joint disease more than whatever other stuff he was
getting for it before.

I had been thinking maybe he had some other inflammatory brain process
going on that the steroids helped. I just couldn't figure how that would
be missed. The man has a team of excellent physicians, and a doting wife
and home nursing staff who have very keen observational skills.

Signature

    hillary israeli vmd  http://www.hillary.net  info@hillary.net
               "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
                not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

turkey in the straw - 19 May 2004 04:44 GMT
Well,today my mom told me I was not her daughter and she wishes i would
quit telling people that.On a funnier note she said she heard i won a
lot of money because i weighed the most.I am heavy set.I about fell over
laughing.I also ate a hershey bar and she said i shouldn't be dong that
because i am 91 yrs.old and it's not good for me."Out of the mouths of
babes".She is like my child now.LOL
  Yes,Evelyn we did indeed luck out on out trip.She's been so good
except for this darn wanting her kids home.Nothing quiets that down.She
insists there down stairs.Believe me i have tried every answer there
is.It has to be a matter of being more bored in the evenings cause
should we be out riding around she never asks.Barb
Evelyn Ruut - 19 May 2004 10:48 GMT
> Well,today my mom told me I was not her daughter and she wishes i would
> quit telling people that.On a funnier note she said she heard i won a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> is.It has to be a matter of being more bored in the evenings cause
> should we be out riding around she never asks.Barb

Barb, as you may remember, Ida's "drove us crazy" question was "Where's
Pelli?"

Pelli was her little dog, which was 17 years old, toothless, incontinent,
and she herself admitted a couple of years prior, that it was way past time
to be put gently to sleep.

When she went to the vet with that intent, she slipped on the ice and fell,
cutting herself in the process.

After she was stitched up she believed that "God had intervened" and she
continued to keep the dog even though it had pretty much wrecked her house
by the time she came here to live.   The house absolutely reeked, and all
the carpets all over the house were soaked through to the floor and turned
much of the wood black.   Of course we found that out later when we went to
clean up the house to sell it.   Before that, we knew it smelled but not how
bad it was.

We tried at first to handle both her and the dog, but then we saw she was
force feeding it with a spoon on her lap at the table which was unbelievably
cruel to watch.   (The dog could eat OK by itself, this was just her thing).
Then it started defecating and peeing all over my house too, of course.   My
own animals were confused by this and it was becoming a problem.

My husband said that we would care for her, but not the dog and her both.
So after trying for about a week, one especially miserable morning after a
couple of late night/early AM cleanups, he took the dog to the vet himself
and had it put down.  (Believe me, it was way over time for this).  Ida knew
and was OK with the decison at the time.

We had the dog cremated and then we had a little doggie funeral, burying it
in the yard, and planted flowers over it so she would be able to understand
it.   It was OK with Ida throughout, and she agreed that it had to be done
and participated, but of course afterward SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER A THING!

No matter how many times we explained to her, no matter what we said, she
kept looking for that dog and asking a million times a day.  For years on
end, all day and all night, she did that!   It was hard to understand
because she knew that Peter was taking the dog, and she went along with it
at the time, it just didn't stick in her memory.

She woke up in the night calling the dog.  She looked under the bed and in
the closet and around the house calling and calling.   She would ask and ask
and ask over and over till we were tearing our hair out.   She would sit on
the sofa and call it all day long and ask us yet again.

We even typed up a paper with the full explanation about the dog and asked
her to read it and sign it, that she understood.   She did that just fine,
and then forgot that too, and it was just another exercise in futility.

But on SOME level, she DID understand, because for instance she NEVER asked
for the dog at the Daycare center or at anyone elses house!!!!!!!!!   It was
only at home where she last had the dog.

Another instance showed there was some small recognition, in that she would
memorize the answer, but not the situation itself.   We would say "Pelli was
old and sick and had to be put to sleep and was buried in the yard, right
there by those flowers."

She would ask, and then just a second later would answer herself, saying
"Pelli was put to sleep?"  ....So what do you do?   You explain again for
the hundred millionth time.   To them, they are asking it for the very first
time, every time.

Finally she did stop asking for the dog but only when her cognition began to
fail even more.

(Had she gone right to a nursing home, the dog would have had to be put down
anyway and it was really hard to have to deal with the dog's problems and
her too).

We got a new puppy and a new kitten in hopes of distracting her.   Neither
tactic worked.   The only way to get through it is to answer yet again.   No
matter how many times they ask.

My belief is that at that point in time, her own judgement and thought
processes were still quite clear, because she could answer questions
clearly, would tell you what she wanted etc., but she couldn't remember
current happenings anymore.  She complied and agreed and understood the
event at the time, and even participated in the doggie funeral when we
buried its ashes, yet she still could not remember.

So apparently the rational judgment part of her brain was still functioning
even though the memory of current happenings was not.
Signature

Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

 
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