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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / March 2004

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alz video?

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Greg - 13 Mar 2004 13:43 GMT
I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
what she has .. just goes ..

"I can't remember things"

"Things seem so strange"

Does anyone know of some kind of video or something that she could watch
that would break
it all down to her?

If I were to produce one I'd go

"Hi. You have a little problem remembering things. That is because your
brain has a few problems. Your life, Your world
may seem confusing but that is what is to be expected ... etc, etc, etc"

Now,  my mother, in stage 1 I guess is realizing .. she can't remember
things.  And, in stage one,
she'd watch such a video, if we had to, 10 times, until she finally
understood.
I don't know what's up ahead, you folks tell me, I don't want to believe it
but for now,
I'm searching the web for any kind of

SIMP:LE

primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Evelyn Ruut - 13 Mar 2004 14:32 GMT
> I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
> what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.

Dear Greg,

You could explain it to her or show her a video or give her a book, but none
of that will do any good if she cannot remember what she was told or what
she saw or read.

I explained her situation to my mother in law kindly and gently every day.
She still doesn't know what is going on.   Did you read the posted analogy a
few days ago about the train journey?

It is so sad, but you cannot impart much to them but for just a moment.   If
it helps, then try, but if the person is sick enough to have been diagnosed
with this illness, then their memory is impaired enough that they won't be
able to retain the explanation.

Signature

Evelyn

(To reply to me personally, remove sox)

Greg - 13 Mar 2004 18:21 GMT
Thanks again. This thing seems so futile sometimes and yes, I recommend that
everyone read that train analogy.  I think about
it a lot .. a bit disturbing but very insightful.

> > I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
> > what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> (To reply to me personally, remove sox)
Joyce - 13 Mar 2004 15:00 GMT
I'm posing a question to you, that was posed to me last summer when our journey
began ... *and you are wanting to do this for your mom or for you?*  That simple
little question had made me do some soul searching in many different scenarios,
most usually the answer is *for me*. <sigh>  Truth be told, mom doesn't care and
the answers aren't gonna mean a hill of beans to her nor change what we all are
dealing with.  Myself and each of my siblings are asked frequently, *what is wrong
with me*.  Yes, it's frustrating to repeatedly be asked the same things over and
over again.  I'm willing to bet it's even more frustrating to mom.  She's the one
who has to live in this new world.  She's still well enough to know something is
wrong, yet not well enough to remember what we have told her.  By showing her a
video over and over, I think it just goes to show my mom that we probably don't
want to be bothered answering her question verbally anymore ... yet that really is
all she wants.  Someone to spend time with her, someone to talk to her.
Soooooooo, I continue to answer her questions ... your memory is broken mom. Sorry
I can't be more specific since the only diagnosis can be made by autopsy and we
just aren't ready to go there yet (this always gets a laugh out of her ...
laughing is good).   Nope, it's probably not going to get better mom.  Sorry mom,
the doctors don't know how this happened.  No mom, we aren't going to clean your
closet out today - you NEED what clothing you have left. <g>  

Now my younger brother has taken things even farther in his explanations, he has
the quick sense of humor in the family ... as well as is the baby (if you can be
considered a baby at the age of 45).  He tells mom she is somewhat like a
computer,  just needs more RAM ... her hard drive is working just fine, but there
isn't enough functional RAM left.  She always laughs at this, yet I'm sure she
doesn't understand.  And really, any deeper explanations only upset and sadden her
... so who is that video really going to HELP?  <grin>

Keep this question in the back of your mind, I have a feeling you could refer to
it often as your journey continues.  I know I have.  The one I am currently
applying it to, along with the aid of a opthamolgist, is whether or not she should
undergo cataract surgery.  We definitely will go for the eye exam, but the jury is
out on anything further because of the followup treatments, anesthetics, etc.  

Joyce

>I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
>what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Evelyn Ruut - 13 Mar 2004 16:22 GMT
 The one I am currently
> applying it to, along with the aid of a opthamolgist, is whether or not she should
> undergo cataract surgery.  We definitely will go for the eye exam, but the jury is
> out on anything further because of the followup treatments, anesthetics, etc.
>
> Joyce

Dear Joyce,

An excellent post.   I have taken the liberty of renaming the thread and
addressing the issue you included at the end.

My mother in law had some dental work done when she was relatively early in
the game.   She could not remember the doctors instructions, and even
insisted that she hadn't had any tooth pulled.   This was in so short a time
as hour later.

She persisted in "doing what came naturally," meaning rinsing out the tooth
socket, which could have caused infection, which is why the doctor told her
not to do it.   I repeatedly told her not to rinse the socket and she
repeatedly forgot and did it anyway.   Fortunately nothing came of it and it
healed OK, but it just as easily could have been a real problem.

With eye surgery she could easily rub or pull off the bandage, forgetting
that there had been surgery done.   She could possibly do some serious
damage, losing what little sight she has left.

So even without undergoing general anesthesia, there could be a bad result
due to their inability to remember what they were supposed to do for
aftercare, or even that there was a surgery in the first place.

Then there is also the well documented phenomenon of an alzheimer patient
having general anesthesia and getting WAY worse, never ever really
recovering to the level of their former functioning.

In my opinion, surgery of any kind is a very serious issue with an alzheimer
patient and requires a lot of thought.

Signature

Evelyn

(To reply to me personally, remove sox)

Gwen Love - 13 Mar 2004 19:10 GMT
Another note re the cataract surgery.  I did not have to have the eye
covered except had a see through cover to use for three nights while
sleeping.  Also had no restrictions (except for playing football and bungee
jumping!).  Had to use drops 4 times a day.
Gwen

Signature

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|
|   The one I am currently
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
| In my opinion, surgery of any kind is a very serious issue with an alzheimer
| patient and requires a lot of thought.
Evelyn Ruut - 13 Mar 2004 20:42 GMT
> Another note re the cataract surgery.  I did not have to have the eye
> covered except had a see through cover to use for three nights while
> sleeping.  Also had no restrictions (except for playing football and bungee
> jumping!).  Had to use drops 4 times a day.
> Gwen

Gwen my dad just had it done too on his "good" eye.   Ida could not follow
any kind of directions at all.   She is just too far into this illness.
Signature

Evelyn

(To reply to me personally, remove sox)

> |   The one I am currently
> | > applying it to, along with the aid of a opthamolgist, is whether or not
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> alzheimer
> | patient and requires a lot of thought.
Joyce - 14 Mar 2004 11:12 GMT
Isn't it funny how different drs. follow different procedures?  My mil has a hard
plastic protector, but can't see through it ... has to wear it when sleeping, for
2 weeks.  2 kinds of eyedrops, 4 times a day for 2 weeks.  And she has lifting
restrictions - nothing heavy, leave the babies alone!  LOL

Joyce

>Another note re the cataract surgery.  I did not have to have the eye
>covered except had a see through cover to use for three nights while
>sleeping.  Also had no restrictions (except for playing football and bungee
>jumping!).  Had to use drops 4 times a day.
>Gwen
Joyce - 14 Mar 2004 11:05 GMT
>  The one I am currently
>> applying it to, along with the aid of a opthamolgist, is whether or not
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>In my opinion, surgery of any kind is a very serious issue with an alzheimer
>patient and requires a lot of thought.

Thanks for sharing your experiences on this, Evelyn.  The teeth issues were put on
hold, as we (the nursing staff and I) decided the eyesight should be looked into
first ... kind of one of those which is higher priority type for MOM things.  We
know she has dental issues but she is not in pain - yet she constantly complains
about her eyesight.

As for the eyes, I don't know what I'm going to do, haven't even taken her to the
eye doctor yet.  I had my mil in for cataract surgery last week and accompanied
her for the next day followup exam, so did have a chance to talk to the doctor
about my mom's condition.  One problem I do already have is that mom doesn't even
remember that she has been told she has developed cataracts (this seems to be one
of those things she can't retain).  The dr. does use a local anesthetic, we did
cover that as it was something that concerned me after reading here about other
peoples experiences.  I was unwilling to go that route.  The Dr. would not say yes
to the surgery, would also not say no - so I assume that she will also be very
careful as to what her recommendations would be.  I also made the assumption that
she must deal with this scenario on occassion, as she did seem very concerned as
to whether it was worth putting mom through it all.

Mom had knee replacement surgery (both knees) about 10 years ago.  Several months
ago she told me she thought it was time to replace them again as she was having
more pain (they do have a lifespan of 10-15 years as I recall).  I talked to the
floor director at her nursing home, voiced my concerns as to recovery, therapy,
anesthesia, etc - and was told by her that she felt it wasn't worth putting mom
through it.  Like everyone here has said, the mental decline that will probably be
encountered is not going to outweight the benefits of the surgery.  And I don't
think she is well enough now to comprehend or complete the same course of recovery
therapy that she went through 10 years ago.  So the next time mom brought it up, I
explained my concerns and findings.  Amazingly she did seem to understand and she
refused to go through it.  Not once has she mentioned again (I know just typing
this I am going to hear it when I visit again - lol).

I guess next week I will make the eye appointment, to at least find out what
exactly she is dealing with.  Maybe she only needs a new vision prescription - but
an exam is definitely in order.  Anything after that will have to be discussed
with the doctor AND the staff at the nursing home.  I do rely heavily on their
experience and knowledge, too.

Joyce
Mare - 13 Mar 2004 17:34 GMT
Great post Joyce.
Signature

Mare
mfcoleman@THEOLEmindspring.com
http://www.muggsmulcher.com/kstuff/a.s.a/intro.htm
alt.support.alzheimers' FAQs and Stuff Pages

> I'm posing a question to you, that was posed to me last summer when our journey
> began ... *and you are wanting to do this for your mom or for you?*  That simple
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Joyce
Gwen Love - 13 Mar 2004 19:08 GMT
Joyce, I just had cataract surgery on both eyes, and no anesthetic was
used.  Eye drops deadened the eye and I felt nothing.  Your mom would still
have to be able to follow directions though.  Could she do that?
Gwen

Signature

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Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your kids.
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| I'm posing a question to you, that was posed to me last summer when our journey
| began ... *and you are wanting to do this for your mom or for you?*  That simple
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
| >
| >primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Joyce - 14 Mar 2004 11:10 GMT
My mother-in-law just had cataract surgery last week, and has done very well.  She
is able to follow directions though and is very capable of caring for herself.
She was given a local anesthetic only, and the surgery was done as an outpatient
hospital thing.

My mom?  I know she couldn't follow the directions on her own.  If told to use
drops 4 times a day, heaven only knows when she would use them.  She couldn't keep
her meds straight in the past, let alone adding something new into the picture.
She is in a nursing home though, so the staff would be responsible for the
medications and I know they would do a great job.  The main concern I have is that
wearing the protector when she sleeps ... I think she would constantly try to pull
it off.  And her sleeping patterns are not normal, so the staff would have to keep
constant watch.  My mother in law said today that her vision has not improved at
all (it is less than a week), so is it worth putting my mom through this?  

Joyce

>Joyce, I just had cataract surgery on both eyes, and no anesthetic was
>used.  Eye drops deadened the eye and I felt nothing.  Your mom would still
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>|
>| Joyce
Greg - 14 Mar 2004 14:37 GMT
more ram.  or rom.   or simply a bigger harddrive.
good post Joyce. Interesting decision too .. ad and surgery, one I guess I
should at least plan for a possibility of somewhere down the line.

> I'm posing a question to you, that was posed to me last summer when our journey
> began ... *and you are wanting to do this for your mom or for you?*  That simple
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> >
> >primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Joyce - 16 Mar 2004 10:18 GMT
That's the biggest problem, we all have no idea how quickly or slowly these *down
the line* periods will appear.  My brothers and I dealt with symptoms much like
you are going through with your mom .. for about 6 months.  It started out so
slight, little things ... not finding her medications so swearing that someone
stole them ... a small hammer disappeared... phones or television became unplugged
mysteriously.  A lot of funny little things that could be passed off.  We knew
something was wrong, so did she - she hid much of it well.  The words started
becoming difficult for her.  She could follow conversations, just couldn't come up
with a word here and there so used descriptives to get her idea across.  Then
WHAM, sudden decline again ... which would even out for another month or so, which
once again put off the inevitable.  Maybe we were all somewhat in denial at this
stage of the game?  But do prepare yourself, because if it is alzheimers it is not
going to get better - those declines can come very quickly, or your mom can remain
the same for quite some time.  Be careful asking her to meet you at the car, or to
wander through the store by herself.  One day ... she isn't going to be where you
expect, and no way to know when that will happen.  I never once expected the 1AM
phone call from the police, saying my mom was wandering the not-so-nice streets in
her pajama's with no identification and no idea where she lived, her address or
phone number (yet she was able to immediately and easily give my name and phone
number).  There is no rhyme or reason as to what they remember, or why.

Joyce

>more ram.  or rom.   or simply a bigger harddrive.
>good post Joyce. Interesting decision too .. ad and surgery, one I guess I
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>> >primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to
>her.
Darryl - 13 Mar 2004 16:08 GMT
Hi Greg,

Have you spoken with anyone regarding your feelings?  

>Now,  my mother, in stage 1 I guess is realizing .. she can't remember
>things.  And, in stage one,
>she'd watch such a video, if we had to, 10 times, until she finally
>understood.

No matter what the stage, your Mom is gradually losing her cognitive
abilities.  She could watch the video 10x, 100x, a 1000 times and
while she may grasp the idea within the first minutes, hours, maybe
even a day or so, you will more frequently have to return to the
video.  This won't necessarily be a problem for her because she either
doesn't understand or doesn't remember.  

It will become a problem for you if it hasn't already.  

>I don't know what's up ahead, you folks tell me, I don't want to believe it
>but for now,  I'm searching the web for any kind of SIMPLE primer that
>could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.

You have spelled out denial, something that most of us have gone
through and have retained the ability to recognize.  You may even
recognize it yourself; however, for your sake and your Mom's you must
find a way to come to terms with the fact that things are going to get
much worse (yes, you cannot imagine).  Read the 36-hour day, find a
local AD support group, even talk to your doctor (believe it or not,
he/she most likely had psychiatric rotations during residency).

You must take care of yourself first in order to care for your Mom.

Darryl.
Greg - 14 Mar 2004 02:27 GMT
thx Darryl .. maybe denial is the word. I guess everyone remembers the early
stage.  Only nobody here says there's a cure.
I know that but good you folks are around.

> Hi Greg,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Darryl.
Tumbleweed - 13 Mar 2004 16:29 GMT
Remove my socks for email address
> I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
> what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.

No point, she'll forget.

Signature

Tumbleweed

Mare - 13 Mar 2004 17:35 GMT
Hi Greg,
I'm not sure what you will accomplish by reminding your Mom about
her condition thru a video tape. Except to maybe get her anxious
and upset. I've found that people with AD remember the emotions
of a situation far longer than they remember what is actually
happening. So every time she watches the tape she will probably
get anxious and later on that feeling will just keep building but
she won't remember why she is upset. I think Joyce was right on
target. You unfortunately just don't know yet what is in the
future but you sure do seem to be more on top of things than I
was when I started this journey. I kept trying to "fix" things
to, until I had that aha moment that most things were way down
there on the scale of importance in making my Mom happy, trustful
and not in danger of hurting herself.
Signature

Mare
mfcoleman@THEOLEmindspring.com
http://www.muggsmulcher.com/kstuff/a.s.a/intro.htm
alt.support.alzheimers' FAQs and Stuff Pages

> I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
> what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Gwen Love - 13 Mar 2004 19:04 GMT
Greg, if your mother was like my husband, telling her she had Alzheimers
would mean nothing at all.  He was never concerned with medical stuff.
However, he did have a stroke, so I would remind him that he had a stroke
and that left some damage to his brain.  That he could understand.
However, he soon forgot and still didn't understand what was happening to
him.  I don't think trying to get her to understand would really do any
good, except maybe for 10 minutes.  Then she would forget--again and again.
Sorry I can't really be any help to you.
Gwen

Signature

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Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your kids.
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| I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
| what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
|
| primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Mary Gordon - 13 Mar 2004 19:56 GMT
Greg, I hate to tell you this, but having heard a number of your
descriptions of your mother's behaviour and issues, she is most
assuredly NOT in Stage 1 but at least Stage 3 and perhaps into early
into Stage 4. All the your logical explanations of what her problem is
are not going to get her to understand what is happening to her.

See below definitions of the stages.

Mary G.

Stages of Alzheimers

In 1982 Dr. Barry Reisberg published what was to become the best and
most widely accepted
description of the stages of Alzheimer's disease. Even today,  when
experts referto a person being in stage 5 or stage 6, they are
referring to Dr. Reisberg's scale of seven stages.

Adapted from Reisberg, B., Ferris, S.H., Leon, J.J. & Crook, T. The
global deterioration scale for the assessment of primary degenerative
dementia. American Journal of Psychiatry, 1982

Level 1

No cognitive decline - (or Normal Adult). No subjective complaints of
memory deficit. No memory deficit evident on clinical interviews.

Level 2
Very mild cognitive decline (forgetfulness or normal older adult).
Subjective complaints of memory deficit, most frequently in the
following area:
(a) forgetting where one has placed familiar objects;
(b) forgetting names on formerly knew well. No objective evidence of
memory deficit on clinical interview. No objective deficits in
employment or social situations. Appropriate concern regarding
symptoms.

Level 3
Mild cognitive decline (early confusional or Early AD). Earliest
clear-cut deficits. Manifestations in more than one of the following
areas:
(a) patient may have gotten lost when traveling to an unfamiliar
location;
(b) co-workers become aware of patient's relatively low performance;
(c) word and name finding deficit becomes evident to intimates;
(d) patient may read a passage of a book and retain relatively little
material;
(e) patient may demonstrate decreased facility in remembering names
upon introduction to new people;
(f) patient may have lost or misplaced an object of value;
(g) concentration deficit may be evident on clinical testing.
Objective evidence of memory deficit obtained only
with an intensive interview. Denial begins to become manifest in
patient. Mild to moderate anxiety accompanies symptoms.Deficits
noticed in demanding employment situations.

Level 4
Moderate cognitive decline (Late Confusional or Mild AD). Clear-cut
deficit on careful clinical interview. Deficit manifest in following
areas:
(a) decreased knowledge of current and recent events; (b) may exhibit
some deficit in memory of one's personal history;
(c) concentration deficit elicited on serial subtractions; (d)
decreased ability to travel, handle finances, etc.

Frequently no deficit in the following areas:
(a) orientation to time and person;
(b) recognition of familiar persons and faces;
(c) ability to travel to familiar locations. Inability to perform
complex tasks. Denial is dominant defense mechanism. Flattening of
affect and withdrawl from challenging situations occur.

Level 5
Moderately severe cognitive decline (Early Dementia or moderate AD).
Patient can no longer survive without some assistance. Patient is
unable during interview to recall a major relevant aspect of their
current lives, e.g., an address or telephone number of many years, the
names of close family members (such as grandchildren), the name of the
high school or college from which they graduated. Frequently some
disorientation to time (date, day of week, season, etc.) or to place.
An educated person may have difficulty counting back from 40 by 4s or
from 20 by 2s. Persons at this stage retain knowledge of many major
facts regarding themselves and others. They invariably know
their own names and generally know their spouse's and children's
names. They require no assistance with toileting and eating, but may
have some difficulty choosing the proper clothing to wear.

Level 6
Severe cognitive decline (Middle Dementia or Moderately Severe AD).
May occasionally forget the name of the spouse upon whom they are
entirely dependent for survival. Will be largely unaware of all recent
events and experiences in their lives. Retain some knowledge of their
past lives but this is very sketchy. Generally unaware of their
surroundings, the year, the season, etc. May have difficulty counting
from 10, both backward and sometimes forward. Will require some
assistance with activities of daily living, e.g., may become
incontinent, will require travel assistance but occasionally will
display ability to familiar locations. Diurnal rhythm frequently
disturbed. Almost always recall
their own name. Frequently continue to be able to distinguish familiar
from unfamiliar persons in their environment. Personality and
emotional changes occur. These are quite variable and include
(a) delusional behavior, e.g., paatients may accuse their spouse of
being an impostor, may talk to imaginary figures in the environment,
or to their own reflection in the mirror;
(b) obsessive symptoms, e.g., person may
continually repeat simple cleaning activities;
(c) anxiety symptoms, agitation, and even previously nonexistent
violent behavior may occur;
(d) cognitive abulla, i.e., loss of willpower because an individual
cannot carry a thought long enough to determine a purposeful course of
action.

6a - Requires Assistance dressing
6b - Requires Assistance bathing properly
6c - Requires Assistance with mechanics of toileting
6d - Urinary incontinence
6e - Fecal incontinence

Level 7
Very severe cognitive decline (Late Dementia or Severe AD). All verbal
abilities are lost. Frequently there is no speech at all - only
grunting. Incontinent of urine, requires assistance toileting and
feeding. Lose basic psychomotor skills, e.g., ability to walk, sitting
and head control.
The brain appears to no longer be able to tell the body what to do.
Generalized and cortical neurologic signs and symptoms are frequently
present.
Jennie - 14 Mar 2004 01:18 GMT
Mary, or anyone else in the group,

Are there any estimates of how long a person will be in the various stages?
Since January 2003, my mother has declined from Level 4 to Level 6, just
within the past month arriving at Level 6d and 6e (not 100% of the time, but
we are seeing incontinence more and more frequently).  She is not at Level 7
yet, but I just feel that she has declined so rapidly over the past year
that I wonder if this rate of decline is going to continue.  It's an ugly
question to ask, but once someone reaches Level 7, how long can they last
before their body completely shuts down?

Anyone have any experience that would relate to this question.  Not to give
less credence to the experiences of the many individual caretakers in this
group, but I'd be very interested in what some of the professional Alz
workers, who have seen many patients, have to say.

Thanks for all responses,

Jennie

> Greg, I hate to tell you this, but having heard a number of your
> descriptions of your mother's behaviour and issues, she is most
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
> Generalized and cortical neurologic signs and symptoms are frequently
> present.
Dennis P. Harris - 14 Mar 2004 02:22 GMT
> Are there any estimates of how long a person will be in the various stages?

no, it's highly variable.
Greg - 14 Mar 2004 14:24 GMT
Good stuff Mary.  Thx .. I'd say she's  at least at stage 3.
Yet, she can by herself use her cell phone to call her bank, respond to all
the prompts, check on
her bank balance.   I'm wondering if she can still be stage 3 or higher yet
still able to do some
pretty complex things while still exhibiting stage 3 plus behavior.  I took
her to Target department store,
parked a long way away, told her, when she's done shopping to come out of
target, come to the car.
Sure enough, she did.
So .. could these stages intertwine?  Perhaps some lower degree of
granularity than
short-term memory loss being the yardstick.   Maybe a stage 1 person can
exhibit stage 5 behaviors in
SOME areas,  stage 3 behaviors in others, stage 1 in still others.

> Greg, I hate to tell you this, but having heard a number of your
> descriptions of your mother's behaviour and issues, she is most
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
> Generalized and cortical neurologic signs and symptoms are frequently
> present.
Tumbleweed - 14 Mar 2004 17:43 GMT
> Good stuff Mary.  Thx .. I'd say she's  at least at stage 3.
> Yet, she can by herself use her cell phone to call her bank, respond to all
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> exhibit stage 5 behaviors in
> SOME areas,  stage 3 behaviors in others, stage 1 in still others.

Absolutely, I think all of us here can see bizzarre behaviours in some
aspects of LO's behaviour, and perfectly normal in others, the stages are
just a reasonable yardstick of whats happening rather than a hard and fast
rule.

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Tumbleweed

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Mary Gordon - 14 Mar 2004 21:02 GMT
The stages are really just arbitrary "bins" imposed on what is really
a spectrum. No one ever fits totally neatly into a stage. Its kind of
like a bell curve - if most of what she does kinda/sorta fits into a
stage, then she's there - but many people will have "outliers" either
way (i.e. things that you are suprised they can still do, and things
you are mystified they can't do.

There is a random component to it - so you get people who can still
play cards, but can't handle money, or who can play the piano but not
wash themselves - there is no real logic to it, which makes it
frustrating (if they can still do A, why can't they do B, which is
easier???). You are also likely to find fluctuations in what your
mother can do from day to day and week to week. In the morning, she
might be able to do something she can't do that evening. This week she
may not be able to remember something, but next week  she'll be able
to recall it. Or, she'll get a little cold, or other minor illness and
suddenly be a mess, but come back up mentally as she gets better.

You do always have to assume the worst with this illness (i.e. never
be overly optimistic when you are making assumptions about what the
person is capable of, especially if that capability is a key item in a
particular plan. The day you need to rely on them being able to do
something is the day they won't be able to do it and your plans will
go awry.

I can't recall if your mother has had an actual comprehensive
assessment by a psychometrist to see what she is really capable of -
its like the testing they put a kid with a suspected learning
disability through to see where their impairments are. The results can
be quite a jolt, since because her personality is mostly intact, and
she has retained some abilities, you may be assuming she is more with
it than she really is. How often do we grill our loved ones - i.e. get
a calendar or clock out and get them to demonstrate they really
understand how they work. If your mother hasn't had an assessment, it
may be worth doing, since it was a real eye opener for my husband when
he sat in on HIS mothers tests. She seemed pretty good, but the test
results were shocking - deficits showing up in areas that we never
would have thought of - so it was worthwhile just to shake us out of
some complacency.

You also have to consider that with your mom in stage 3, she has been
through the longest, slowest part of the illness, where the damage is
the least likely. She's been running through the reserve capacity in
her brain, and from here on in, as neurons wink out and there is no
backup left, losses will likely be more noticable and devastating.

Mary G.
Tumbleweed - 14 Mar 2004 23:26 GMT
<snip>>
> You also have to consider that with your mom in stage 3, she has been
> through the longest, slowest part of the illness, where the damage is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Mary G.

There was a radio programme here in the UK just last week which reported the
results of some recent research. Essentially, brighter people were being
diagnosed later because of the 'spare capacity' they had, the side effect of
which was that they got what treatment there is, later than they could have,
had the tests taken their IQ into account....though I suspect few people
would know what it was before hand so that could be difficult to do in
practice.

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Greg - 16 Mar 2004 00:54 GMT
If they can still do "A"  why can't they do "B"?

Good observation .. worth pondering the next time we (aka "I")  get
frustrated because they can't do "B"
when they excel at "A".

Our GP (sorry haven't seen a neuro yet)
did a most excellent job grilling her though.

"What month is this?" ... "Who are your sons?"  ... "Your address please" ..
"11 plus nine is??"

took him all of 20 seconds to see something was wrong.

> The stages are really just arbitrary "bins" imposed on what is really
> a spectrum. No one ever fits totally neatly into a stage. Its kind of
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Mary G.
Dennis P. Harris - 16 Mar 2004 05:04 GMT
> Our GP (sorry haven't seen a neuro yet)
> did a most excellent job grilling her though.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> took him all of 20 seconds to see something was wrong.

the really revealing test is when the doc asks the patient to
draw a clock face indicating a certain time.  that's when
deficits that were previously hidden become very apparent.
Greg - 17 Mar 2004 02:23 GMT
that's so absurd it's genius. Makes perfect sense though. Seems like and
excellent
test to diagnose cognitive deficiencies.
Thx everyone for all the advise you've given.

(editor's note: I don't know if even I could draw 12:35 pm)
(which brings us ALL to that unspoken question ..)
(if .. our parent, uncle, sister, etc has/had it ..
what are our odds.

> > Our GP (sorry haven't seen a neuro yet)
> > did a most excellent job grilling her though.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> draw a clock face indicating a certain time.  that's when
> deficits that were previously hidden become very apparent.
Mary Gordon - 17 Mar 2004 10:57 GMT
Here are a couple of interesting items - the first is how to
administer a clock face test, and the second is scoring the results
(see in particular the Watson method).

http://199.243.225.113/ClinicalAssistant/scales/clock_drawing_test.htm
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/8/859

Our family doc did the clock face test with my MIL when we first
mentioned to him we thought something was up. She had passed a basic
memory test and was alert and oriented, able to answer questions about
her life and recent news events - but when given a blank circle and
asked to put make a clock by putting the numbers around the edge , and
then put the hands on the clock for a particular time - she couldn't
do it at all - what she produced was enough to give you a really sick
feeling in the pit of your stomach.

As you will see in the second article (link above), its quite a
sensitive test for cognitive impairment even in the early stages.

He also had her copy some simple line drawings (like a kids first
three dimensional drawings of a little house) which she also couldn't
do. It ended up looking like a pile of sticks.

Mary G.
Dennis P. Harris - 18 Mar 2004 09:12 GMT
> Here are a couple of interesting items - the first is how to
> administer a clock face test, and the second is scoring the results
> (see in particular the Watson method).

Mary, thanks so much.  The entire website has a lot of good info.
I especially like the full list of neurpsych tests at
http://www.brainsource.com/nptests.htm
Mary Gordon - 17 Mar 2004 11:04 GMT
Here is the other common in-office test

http://www.lawandpsychiatry.com/html/mini_mental_status_examination.htm

Combine this with the clock face test, and you've got a pretty good
"quick and dirty" evaluation on whether something is up.

Mary G.
Greg F - 14 Mar 2004 01:48 GMT
Hi Greg-  I am Greg too.
I fully understand why you want your mother to understand her situation.  It
would make it so much easier to care for them if they could cooperate with
that care.

With my Mom it really upsets her to be reminded of her affliction.  She
tries to live a normal life but normal is not the same.  She simply can't
stand for anyone to mention that she has Alzheimer's.  We went to the Dr.
this week and he said the "A" word and she flipped out on him too.   Mom has
been diagnosed for over 3 years now.  I would rather her be calm and happy
even if I have to trick her to care for her.  For example, she has this
thing about washing her clothes by hand.  She only wets dirty, sweaty
clothes and hangs them up and it smells bad.  I have to let her finish and
leave then gather them all up and wash them in the washer.  She will
sometimes do her washing and then put them dripping into the electric dryer,
so I turned the dryer off at the electric panel and turn it on when I use it
and then turn it off again.

My Mom is very hard to care for because she refuses to believe that she
needs care.  When I do something for her it makes her mad, no matter what it
is.  And, it seems to get worse as she declines.  She stands her ground and
defends it with everything, no matter what it is about.

I am sure though that a time will come when I will pray for her to argue
with me some.

> I'm still a newbie in all this. But, I think my mother really has no idea
> what she has .. just goes ..
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to her.
Greg - 14 Mar 2004 14:31 GMT
Sometimes my mother .. she's pretty funny, makes fun of her own condition ..
one time she told me and a friend

"I may be crazy but you folks are insane".

Your post though seems to tell me downplay her condition, make her forget it
even, just let life flow as it will.
Your mother I guess seems like I would be if I had alz.  I would not want to
keep being reminded of it.
The folks here say it's best to just go along with them .. their comfort,
happiness being more important than
trying to tell them they're wrong or tell them they have a problem .. just
go along with them, the ultimate goal
being .. make them happy or at least ok.

> Hi Greg-  I am Greg too.
> I fully understand why you want your mother to understand her situation.  It
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> > primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to
> her.
Greg F - 15 Mar 2004 01:43 GMT
Well Greg, I don't know much about all this except for my Mom.  I imagine
they are all different.  My mom has always enjoyed fighting about stuff and
this fighting is natural to her.  Your Mom may be different.  You may need
to experiment with what works for her.  That's what I did.  Check out
www.care4elders.com   They have some wonderful publications that have helped
me.  They charge a small annual subscription charge but it really is not
very much.  They are mailed US Snail Mail.  There are also counselors at the
Alzheimer's Association that you can talk to.  The Dr. of course is a
resource.

I really recommend you learn all you can about the disease (if you haven't
already) and then pick and choose what will work for you.

> Sometimes my mother .. she's pretty funny, makes fun of her own condition ..
> one time she told me and a friend
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> > > primer that could might explain her condition (her being in stage 1) to
> > her.
Greg - 16 Mar 2004 00:54 GMT
Thx. There's lots of good free info on the net about things but sometimes
the really good stuff
is not free, requires a fee. That site with the newsletters seems like a
goldmine.

> Well Greg, I don't know much about all this except for my Mom.  I imagine
> they are all different.  My mom has always enjoyed fighting about stuff and
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> to
> > > her.
 
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