Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / March 2004
I've Read Through....
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Patty - 29 Feb 2004 14:18 GMT some of the posts and didn't want to bring it to the top again, so....
First of all, many of our Residents on the unit in the past ten years have come to us in the first (beginning) stages where they could do more things. Now, I would say only in the last year or two have we definately noticed that the Family Members are keeping their loved ones home longer....or getting them into daycare. So when they come to us they are well into the second stage.
As far as seizures go, that is definately part of this horrendous disease. That is why they go on Dilantin or any other seizure medication to get the seizures under control. This does not gurantee they will never have another seizre again, but certainly can limit the seizures.
In my very own opinion.....I feel marijuana would not help an Alzheimer nor an MS Patient. This in my opinion would limit their mobility to a screeching halt. An Alz Resident, I feel, shows pain or discomfort by facial grimances for those who cannot speak. An MS Resident has enough trouble trying to use their limbs for any movement they have, and the marijuana would slow them down to be more flacid and relaxed then ever. Although I do feel for other types of pain, marijuana would be a Godsent.
I go back to work tomorrow after being on vacation...and I hold my breath when I return, hopeing everyone is okay.
They tell you in NH not to get too close...but how can you not get close? We see these Residents more in a week than we do our OWN Families. They are ....our second Family. We feed them, play with them, pray with them, etc...and try and make them have a life full of love and dignity. Dignity is a big picture with us.
All 43 Residents are washed dressed, make-up, jewelry for the Ladies...and up and into activities. Their diets are always a concern and the weight is always checked to see that they are maintaining a weight balance. Every Weds. our Ladies can go to the hairdresser's (in the facility).
Please know that I'm here to be of help if I can....Hugs, Patty
Dali - 29 Feb 2004 17:04 GMT Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they think it is improving the quality of their life. Pot does space a person out and will maybe make them less responsive but if the person says it makes their life bearable I would give it to them. btw the only people who get pot these days are school kids or people who know someone in the underground community. It's harder for kids to get beer than pot or other illegal drugs. the drug war is a total failure. legalize it and lock up anyone up who gives it to a minor. my two cents.
>In my very own opinion.....I feel marijuana would not help an Alzheimer >nor an MS Patient. This in my opinion would limit their mobility to a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Although I do feel for other types of pain, marijuana would be a >Godsent. Patty - 29 Feb 2004 20:06 GMT Hi Dali, You are absolutely right when you say it is up to the individual who wants to take pot to make life bearable. It is an individual's right, for we do not know the pain anyone else is carrying. However, my opinion was for an Alz Resident and an MS....In that case, I really think that is what's best, but I am not in their shoes and I am not their Doctor. I don't like to see anyone in pain. Patty
Robert E. Lewis - 29 Feb 2004 20:12 GMT > Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they > think it is improving the quality of their life. A person suffering AD or other dementia becomes unable to make competent judgments about anything, including/especially whether a mind-altering drug is improving their quality of life.
> Pot does space a > person out and will maybe make them less responsive but if the person > says it makes their life bearable I would give it to them. 'Making life bearable' is a subjective perception, to be made in this case by someone whose perception is already impaired by disease. If the drug *objectively* makes a person who is already spaced out and less responsive due to dementia even more so, should we give it to them just because it makes them feel good, even as it's making them actually worse? My father is/was an alcoholic who hasn't been able to drink for physical health reasons for about four years (he'd be dead from drink by now if he hadn't become too sick to drink). If he were to take up drinking again, I think it would ease a lot of his anxiety if he were drinking again - but it would make his cognitive problems worse.
I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would make them perceive things as being more bearable is the answer - there are drugs that ease the (completely reasonable, imho) anxiety and depression associated with the dementia without exacerbating the dementia.
-- Robert
Patty - 29 Feb 2004 20:30 GMT I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would make them perceive things as being more bearable is the answer - there are drugs that ease the (completely reasonable, imho) anxiety and depression associated with the dementia without exacerbating the dementia. ********************************************* ROBERT....I ABSOLUTELY COUDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!.......PATTY
Evelyn Ruut - 29 Feb 2004 21:00 GMT > I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving > cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ********************************************* > ROBERT....I ABSOLUTELY COUDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!.......PATTY I thought I should mention that I know of a young man who absolutely would not smoke pot because he said it made him feel paranoid and obsessive. Just the thing for a person with Alzheimers ....NOT!
 Signature Evelyn
(To reply to me personally, remove sox)
Mary Gordon - 01 Mar 2004 11:44 GMT Interesting you bring that up, since we just went through a very upsetting tragedy over the same thing.
My husband is a freelance writer/director. He went into preproduction for a self produced short late last year, and the filming actually occured this January. A really wonderful young man became his production assistant and his role grew as things progressed. His name was Cameron Wright - and he was just back from three or four years in New York, working with Mike Nichols. He was an actor, a director - 30 years old, with an extremely bright future in front of him (handsome, funny, athletic, interesting, etc.)
In mid February, he was 5 or 6 weeks into a romance with a young woman he'd met on my husband's production, he had just started rehearsals on an Arthur Miller play he was directing - so life was good. He was extremely happy and upbeat. On February 15th, we got a completely shocking call that he'd died in a fall from a 12th floor balcony just a few hours earlier. Apparently he'd invited his new girlfriend over and they'd smoked some pot. He'd become extremely agitated and paranoid, and she got frightened and locked herself in the bathroom, and when she came out, the balcony doors were open and he was gone.
We subsequently found out that he'd had this kind of reaction to pot before - paranoia, agitation, almost a psychosis, and it could last as long as a couple of days. His family and friends were all aware of it - but the girlfriend, being too new in his life, hadn't been told. I'd never heard of this kind of reaction before, so I looked it up - and low and behold, a small percentage of people have this happen to them - it can trigger a psychotic event in someone with an underlying tendency to schizophrenia, biopolar illness etc. - even if they've never had an event like that at all, and have no current signs of mental illness.
What no one can understand is why he would have smoked anything, since he KNEW smoking pot triggered this kind of reaction for him. Just completely sad and mysterious. My husband went to the visitation (taking with him photographs from the production and a lovely letter for his family about what Cameron was doing in his last weeks). His parents are just destroyed - and the poor girlfriend - she's only in her early 20's....
Mary G.
Darryl - 01 Mar 2004 12:45 GMT >> I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving >> cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >not smoke pot because he said it made him feel paranoid and obsessive. >Just the thing for a person with Alzheimers ....NOT! During a time in my life that I refer to as 'the wonder years', I both experienced and witnessed this phenomenon. As my Dad started his decline and my Mom and brother were upset by the fact that they couldn't rationalize with him, I was reminded of these 'bad trips' and (don't laugh) used these experiences to work with him. There is nothing more sad though than realizing that he could not be 'talked down'.
If THC was ever found to be useful in the treatment of dementia, it would be in a form in which the dosage could be controlled. Until those studies are performed and that dose is determined, the risks outweigh the benefits.
Evelyn Ruut - 29 Feb 2004 20:58 GMT > > Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they > > think it is improving the quality of their life. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > -- > Robert I feel fairly certain that those who suffer from delusions would have a far worse time of it if they were indulging in any kind of psychedelic, (and that is the category pot is in). It tends to worsen paranoia and delusional stuff anyway. In someone who already suffers from those it would surely exacerbate their problems.
 Signature Evelyn
(To reply to me personally, remove sox)
Dali - 01 Mar 2004 13:57 GMT Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these people? To bring up anecdotal evidence and then say therefore no one should use it is just wrong. If all drugs that produced bad even deadly results we would have no drugs at all to work with. SSRI's cause many to have suicidal thoughts(even do it). Should we get rid of them even though it has helped millions of others. IMO pot is safe and I would do it at the end of the day to help with a good meal and get some sleep. There are risk with everything. It's called life.
>> > Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they >> > think it is improving the quality of their life. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >delusional stuff anyway. In someone who already suffers from those it >would surely exacerbate their problems. Robert E. Lewis - 01 Mar 2004 16:28 GMT > Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these > people? References, please. Which Journals of Medicine, please list some working links to articles supporting that claim.
The only reports I could find mention that *synthetic THC* (which is NOT the same thing as smoking a little pot in the evening) may help increase the apetite in AD patients who aren't eating, and might ease anxiety (and I already pointed out there are better drugs on the market for that).
To bring up anecdotal evidence and then say therefore no one
> should use it is just wrong. ...
> IMO pot is safe and > I would do it at the end of the day to help with a good meal and get > some sleep. There are risk with everything. It's called life. Complains about 'anecdotal evidence' (meaning people with actual experience with both people on marijuana and with dementia sufferers), then pushes his anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea.
Dali - 01 Mar 2004 18:15 GMT It means if it's not good for one don't say it is therefore not good for anyone. In logic class this argument is the first one they tell you is faulty. I will get the reference but to tell you the truth I only saw a blip of this on the news. I wonder why their is not much more said about it? I smell the wonderful USA gov't at work. But, will get back in touch with resource.
>> Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these >> people? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that >giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea. It means if it's not good for one don't say it is therefore not good for anyone. In logic class this argument is the first one they tell you is faulty. I wil
Dali - 01 Mar 2004 18:28 GMT How about these links. I got dozens more. It only took seconds.
New England Journal of Medicine Editor, Jerome Kassirer, MD, wrote about marijuana's medical value in the magazine's January 1997 editorial:
"I believe that a federal policy that prohibits physicians from alleviating suffering by prescribing marijuana for seriously ill patients is misguided, heavy-handed, and inhumane. Marijuana may have long-term adverse effects and its use may presage serious addictions, but neither long-term side effects nor addiction is a relevant issue in such patients.
It is also hypocritical to forbid physicians to prescribe marijuana while permitting them to use morphine and meperidine to relieve extreme dyspnea and pain. With both these drugs the difference between the dose that relieves symptoms and the dose that hastens death is very narrow; by contrast, there is no risk of death from smoking marijuana. To demand evidence of therapeutic efficacy is equally hypocritical. The noxious sensations that patients experience are extremely difficult to quantify in controlled experiments.
What really counts for a therapy with this kind of safety margin is whether a seriously ill patient feels relief as a result of the intervention, not whether a controlled trial "proves" its efficacy." (1-30-97) JPK
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Miles Herkenham, PhD, Chief of the National Institute of Mental Health's Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Regulation, IRP, noted on the NIMH website (Updated January 25, 2002):
"Cannabinoid receptors are also located in areas that control emesis (nucleus of the solitary tract) and pain, suggesting medical potential of marijuana." (2002) MH
DEA Administrative Law Judge Francis L. Young made the following statement in his 1988 ruling:
"The overwhelming preponderance of the evidence in this record establishes that marijuana has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States for nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy treatments in some cancer patients. To conclude otherwise, on this record, would be unreasonable, arbitrary and capricious."
Jay Cavanaugh, PhD, National Director of The American Alliance for Medical Cannabis, in a June 4, 2002 letter to California's Ventura County Board of Supervisors, wrote:
"Medical cannabis has been clearly demonstrated to be a safe non-toxic medicine, useful in the treatment of some of our most disabling medical conditions including MS, cancer, AIDS, glaucoma, chronic pain, and many more conditions too numerous to list.
At the same time, only the medical use of cannabis is legal in the State. This fact requires that this important medicine that still resides outside of the normal drug distribution chain, be appropriately evaluated on the basis of community wide standards and rational scientific information."
On and on and on.......
>> Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these >> people? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that >giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea. Darryl - 01 Mar 2004 20:54 GMT THC has been shown recently to be neuoprotective in rats. The articles you site discuss the legal issues surrounding medical marijuana. We're interested in articles that discuss the actual treatment of AD with THC.
Darryl.
>How about these links. I got dozens more. It only took seconds. > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >>anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that >>giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea. Darryl - 01 Mar 2004 21:32 GMT >THC has been shown recently to be neuoprotective in rats. The >articles you site discuss the legal issues surrounding medical Oops, *cite*
>marijuana. We're interested in articles that discuss the actual >treatment of AD with THC. [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>>anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that >>>giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea. Patty - 01 Mar 2004 23:28 GMT "IMO pot is safe and I would do it at the end of the day to help with a good meal and get some sleep". ******************************************** FOR RESIDENTS WITH POOR APPETITES THEY ARE ON A DRUG CALLED MEGACE. BELIEVE ME WHEN I TELL YOU THAT 99% OF THE RESIDENTS THAT ARE ON THIS MEDICATION HAVE GAINED THE WEIGHT THEY LOST, AND THEN CAN BE BALANCED OUT AND THEIR REGULAR WEIGHT CAN THEN BE MAINTAINED.
AS FAR AS SLEEPING MEDICATIONS IF THEY NEED IT, THEY WILL GET IT AS NEEDED. MOST OF THE TIME THEY ARE UP EARLY, SOME HAVE NO NAPS AND HAVE NO SLEEPING PROBLEMS ONCE IN BED. PATTY
Dennis P. Harris - 02 Mar 2004 06:32 GMT > AS FAR AS SLEEPING MEDICATIONS IF THEY NEED IT, THEY WILL GET IT AS PATTY PLEASE STOP SHOUTING.
thank you.
Patty - 02 Mar 2004 12:51 GMT Sorry, but I thougt a lot of ppl here found it hard to see the board. Sorry!! Patty
Evelyn Ruut - 02 Mar 2004 13:16 GMT > Sorry, but I thougt a lot of ppl here found it hard to see the board. > Sorry!! > Patty Hi Patty,
I kind of thought you didn't realize it was considered shouting to type in all caps. Anyway, now you know....
We are glad to have you here and your comments are always good.
 Signature Evelyn
(To reply to me personally, remove sox)
Songbird - 02 Mar 2004 15:53 GMT And actually as someone who has studied type design and layout -- it is much harder to read all caps. The brain has to work harder to decipher the lengths of the words, etc. And I don't know about you -- but my brain works hard enough!
An innocent mistake, though, Patty.
Songbird
> > Sorry, but I thougt a lot of ppl here found it hard to see the board. > > Sorry!! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > We are glad to have you here and your comments are always good. Dali - 02 Mar 2004 16:22 GMT lol. my ears are ringing.
>> AS FAR AS SLEEPING MEDICATIONS IF THEY NEED IT, THEY WILL GET IT AS > >PATTY PLEASE STOP SHOUTING. > >thank you.
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