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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / March 2004

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Patty - 29 Feb 2004 14:18 GMT
some of the posts and didn't want to bring it to the top again, so....

First of all, many of our Residents on the unit in the past ten years
have come to us in the first (beginning) stages where they could do more
things. Now, I would say only in the last year or two have we definately
noticed that the Family Members are keeping their loved ones home
longer....or getting them into daycare. So when they come to us they are
well into the second stage.

As far as seizures go, that is definately part of this horrendous
disease. That is why they go on Dilantin or any other seizure medication
to get the seizures under control. This does not gurantee they will
never have another seizre again, but certainly can limit the seizures.

In my very own opinion.....I feel marijuana would not help an Alzheimer
nor an MS Patient. This in my opinion would limit their mobility to a
screeching halt. An Alz Resident, I feel, shows pain or discomfort by
facial grimances for those who cannot speak. An MS Resident has enough
trouble trying to use their limbs for any movement they have, and the
marijuana would slow them down to be more flacid and relaxed then ever.
Although I do feel for other types of pain, marijuana would be a
Godsent.

I go back to work tomorrow after being on vacation...and I hold my
breath when I return, hopeing everyone is okay.

They tell you in NH not to get too close...but how can you not get
close? We see these Residents more in a week than we do our OWN
Families. They are ....our second Family. We feed them, play with them,
pray with them, etc...and try and make them have a life full of love and
dignity. Dignity is a big picture with us.

All 43 Residents are washed dressed, make-up, jewelry for the
Ladies...and up and into activities. Their diets are always a concern
and the weight is always checked to see that they are maintaining a
weight balance. Every Weds. our Ladies can go to the hairdresser's (in
the facility).

Please know that I'm here to be of help if I can....Hugs, Patty


Dali - 29 Feb 2004 17:04 GMT
Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they
think it is improving the quality of their life. Pot does space a
person out and will maybe make them less responsive but if the person
says it makes their life bearable I would give it to them. btw the
only people who get pot these days are school kids or people who know
someone in the underground community. It's harder for kids to get beer
than pot or other illegal drugs. the drug war is a total failure.
legalize it and lock up anyone up who gives it to a minor. my two
cents.

>In my very own opinion.....I feel marijuana would not help an Alzheimer
>nor an MS Patient. This in my opinion would limit their mobility to a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Although I do feel for other types of pain, marijuana would be a
>Godsent.
Patty - 29 Feb 2004 20:06 GMT
Hi Dali,
You are absolutely right when you say it is up to the individual who
wants to take pot to make life bearable. It is an individual's right,
for we do not know the pain anyone else is carrying.
However, my opinion was for an Alz Resident and an MS....In that case, I
really think that is what's best, but I am not in their shoes and I am
not their Doctor. I don't like to see anyone in pain.
Patty

           


Robert E. Lewis - 29 Feb 2004 20:12 GMT
> Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they
> think it is improving the quality of their life.

A person suffering AD or other dementia becomes unable to make competent
judgments about anything, including/especially whether a mind-altering drug
is improving their quality of life.

>  Pot does space a
> person out and will maybe make them less responsive but if the person
> says it makes their life bearable I would give it to them.

'Making life bearable' is a subjective perception, to be made in this case
by someone whose perception is already impaired by disease.  If the drug
*objectively* makes a person who is already spaced out and less responsive
due to dementia even more so, should we give it to them just because it
makes them feel good, even as it's making them actually worse?  My father
is/was an alcoholic who hasn't been able to drink for physical health
reasons for about four years (he'd be dead from drink by now if he hadn't
become too sick to drink). If he were to take up drinking again, I think it
would ease a lot of his anxiety if he were drinking again - but it would
make his cognitive problems worse.

I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving
cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would make
them perceive things as being more bearable is the answer - there are drugs
that ease the (completely reasonable, imho) anxiety and depression
associated with the dementia without exacerbating the dementia.

--
Robert
Patty - 29 Feb 2004 20:30 GMT
I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving
cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would
make them perceive things as being more bearable is the answer - there
are drugs that ease the (completely reasonable, imho) anxiety and
depression associated with the dementia without exacerbating the
dementia.
*********************************************
ROBERT....I ABSOLUTELY COUDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!.......PATTY

           


Evelyn Ruut - 29 Feb 2004 21:00 GMT
> I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving
> cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> *********************************************
> ROBERT....I ABSOLUTELY COUDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!.......PATTY

I thought I should mention that I know of a young man who absolutely would
not smoke pot because he said it made him feel paranoid and obsessive.
Just the thing for a person with Alzheimers ....NOT!

Signature

Evelyn

(To reply to me personally, remove sox)

Mary Gordon - 01 Mar 2004 11:44 GMT
Interesting you bring that up, since we just went through a very
upsetting tragedy over the same thing.

My husband is a freelance writer/director. He went into preproduction
for a self produced short late last year, and the filming actually
occured this January. A really wonderful young man became his
production assistant and his role grew as  things progressed. His name
was Cameron Wright - and he was just back from three or four years in
New York, working with Mike Nichols. He was an actor, a director - 30
years old, with an extremely bright future in front of him (handsome,
funny, athletic, interesting, etc.)

In mid February, he was 5 or 6 weeks into a romance with a young woman
he'd met on my husband's production, he had just started rehearsals on
an Arthur Miller play he was directing - so life was good. He was
extremely happy and upbeat. On February 15th, we got a completely
shocking call that he'd died in a fall from a 12th floor balcony just
a few hours earlier. Apparently he'd invited his new girlfriend over
and they'd smoked some pot. He'd become extremely agitated and
paranoid, and she got frightened and locked herself in the bathroom,
and when she came out, the balcony doors were open and he was gone.

We subsequently found out that he'd had this kind of reaction to pot
before - paranoia, agitation, almost a psychosis, and it could last as
long as a couple of days. His family and friends were all aware of it
- but the girlfriend, being too new in his life, hadn't been told. I'd
never heard of this kind of reaction before, so I looked it up - and
low and behold, a small percentage of people have this happen to them
- it can trigger a psychotic event in someone with an underlying
tendency to schizophrenia, biopolar illness etc. - even if they've
never had an event like that at all, and have no current signs of
mental illness.

What no one can understand is why he would have smoked anything, since
he KNEW smoking pot triggered this kind of reaction for him. Just
completely sad and mysterious. My husband went to the visitation
(taking with him photographs from the production and a lovely letter
for his family about what Cameron was doing in his last weeks). His
parents are just destroyed - and the poor girlfriend - she's only in
her early 20's....

Mary G.
Darryl - 01 Mar 2004 12:45 GMT
>> I'm not a supporter of drug prohibition, but I don't think giving
>> cognitively-impaired people mind-imapiring drugs just because it would
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>not smoke pot because he said it made him feel paranoid and obsessive.
>Just the thing for a person with Alzheimers ....NOT!

During a time in my life that I refer to as 'the wonder years', I both
experienced and witnessed this phenomenon.  As my Dad started his
decline and my Mom and brother were upset by the fact that they
couldn't rationalize with him, I was reminded of these 'bad trips' and
(don't laugh) used these experiences to work with him.  There is
nothing more sad though than realizing that he could not be 'talked
down'.

If THC was ever found to be useful in the treatment of dementia, it
would be in a form in which the dosage could be controlled.  Until
those studies are performed and that dose is determined, the risks
outweigh the benefits.
Evelyn Ruut - 29 Feb 2004 20:58 GMT
> > Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they
> > think it is improving the quality of their life.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> --
> Robert

I feel fairly certain that those who suffer from delusions would have a far
worse time of it if they were indulging in any kind of psychedelic, (and
that is the category pot is in).   It tends to worsen paranoia and
delusional stuff anyway.   In someone who already suffers from those it
would surely exacerbate their problems.

Signature

Evelyn

(To reply to me personally, remove sox)

Dali - 01 Mar 2004 13:57 GMT
Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these
people? To bring up anecdotal evidence and then say therefore no one
should use it is just wrong. If all drugs that produced bad even
deadly results we would have no drugs at all to work with. SSRI's
cause many to have suicidal thoughts(even do it). Should we get rid of
them even though it has helped millions of others. IMO pot is safe and
I would do it at the end of the day to help with a good meal and get
some sleep. There are risk with everything. It's called life.

>> > Nice post, I think it should be up to the individual on whether they
>> > think it is improving the quality of their life.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>delusional stuff anyway.   In someone who already suffers from those it
>would surely exacerbate their problems.
Robert E. Lewis - 01 Mar 2004 16:28 GMT
> Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these
> people?

References, please.  Which Journals of Medicine, please list  some working
links to articles supporting that claim.

The only reports I could find mention that *synthetic THC* (which is NOT the
same thing as smoking a little pot in the evening) may help increase the
apetite in AD patients who aren't eating, and might ease anxiety (and I
already pointed out there are better drugs on the market for that).

To bring up anecdotal evidence and then say therefore no one
> should use it is just wrong.
...
>  IMO pot is safe and
> I would do it at the end of the day to help with a good meal and get
> some sleep. There are risk with everything. It's called life.

Complains about 'anecdotal evidence' (meaning people with actual experience
with both people on marijuana and with dementia sufferers), then pushes his
anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that
giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea.
Dali - 01 Mar 2004 18:15 GMT
It means if it's not good for one don't say it is therefore not good
for anyone. In logic class this argument is the first one they tell
you is faulty. I will get the reference but to tell you the truth I
only saw a blip of this on the news. I wonder why their is not much
more said about it? I smell the wonderful USA gov't at work. But, will
get back in touch with resource.

>> Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these
>> people?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that
>giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea.

It means if it's not good for one don't say it is therefore not good
for anyone. In logic class this argument is the first one they tell
you is faulty. I wil
Dali - 01 Mar 2004 18:28 GMT
How about these links. I got dozens more. It only took seconds.

New England Journal of Medicine Editor, Jerome Kassirer, MD, wrote
about marijuana's medical value in the magazine's January 1997
editorial:

"I believe that a federal policy that prohibits physicians from
alleviating suffering by prescribing marijuana for seriously ill
patients is misguided, heavy-handed, and inhumane. Marijuana may have
long-term adverse effects and its use may presage serious addictions,
but neither long-term side effects nor addiction is a relevant issue
in such patients.

It is also hypocritical to forbid physicians to prescribe marijuana
while permitting them to use morphine and meperidine to relieve
extreme dyspnea and pain. With both these drugs the difference between
the dose that relieves symptoms and the dose that hastens death is
very narrow; by contrast, there is no risk of death from smoking
marijuana. To demand evidence of therapeutic efficacy is equally
hypocritical. The noxious sensations that patients experience are
extremely difficult to quantify in controlled experiments.

What really counts for a therapy with this kind of safety margin is
whether a seriously ill patient feels relief as a result of the
intervention, not whether a controlled trial "proves" its efficacy."
(1-30-97) JPK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miles Herkenham, PhD, Chief of the National Institute of Mental
Health's Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Regulation, IRP, noted
on the NIMH website (Updated January 25, 2002):

"Cannabinoid receptors are also located in areas that control emesis
(nucleus of the solitary tract) and pain, suggesting medical potential
of marijuana." (2002) MH

DEA Administrative Law Judge Francis L. Young made the following
statement in his 1988 ruling:

"The overwhelming preponderance of the evidence in this record
establishes that marijuana has a currently accepted medical use in
treatment in the United States for nausea and vomiting resulting from
chemotherapy treatments in some cancer patients. To conclude
otherwise, on this record, would be unreasonable, arbitrary and
capricious."

Jay Cavanaugh, PhD, National Director of The American Alliance for
Medical Cannabis, in a June 4, 2002 letter to California's Ventura
County Board of Supervisors, wrote:

"Medical cannabis has been clearly demonstrated to be a safe non-toxic
medicine, useful in the treatment of some of our most disabling
medical conditions including MS, cancer, AIDS, glaucoma, chronic pain,
and many more conditions too numerous to list.

At the same time, only the medical use of cannabis is legal in the
State. This fact requires that this important medicine that still
resides outside of the normal drug distribution chain, be
appropriately evaluated on the basis of community wide standards and
rational scientific information."

On and on and on.......

>> Then why are the Journals of Medicine saying that it is helping these
>> people?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that
>giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea.
Darryl - 01 Mar 2004 20:54 GMT
THC has been shown recently to be neuoprotective in rats.  The
articles you site discuss the legal issues surrounding medical
marijuana.  We're interested in articles that discuss the actual
treatment of AD with THC.  

Darryl.

>How about these links. I got dozens more. It only took seconds.
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
>>anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that
>>giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea.
Darryl - 01 Mar 2004 21:32 GMT
>THC has been shown recently to be neuoprotective in rats.  The
>articles you site discuss the legal issues surrounding medical

Oops, *cite*

>marijuana.  We're interested in articles that discuss the actual
>treatment of AD with THC.  
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>>>anecdotal account of his recreational drug use as though it's evidence that
>>>giving the drug to dementia patients is a good idea.
Patty - 01 Mar 2004 23:28 GMT
"IMO pot is safe and
I would do it at the end of the day to help with a good meal and get
some sleep".
********************************************
FOR RESIDENTS WITH POOR APPETITES THEY ARE ON A DRUG CALLED MEGACE.
BELIEVE ME WHEN I TELL YOU THAT 99% OF THE RESIDENTS THAT ARE ON THIS
MEDICATION HAVE GAINED THE WEIGHT THEY LOST, AND THEN CAN BE BALANCED
OUT AND THEIR REGULAR WEIGHT CAN THEN BE MAINTAINED.

AS FAR AS SLEEPING MEDICATIONS IF THEY NEED IT, THEY WILL GET IT AS
NEEDED. MOST OF THE TIME THEY ARE UP EARLY, SOME HAVE NO NAPS AND HAVE
NO SLEEPING PROBLEMS ONCE IN BED.  
PATTY

           


Dennis P. Harris - 02 Mar 2004 06:32 GMT
> AS FAR AS SLEEPING MEDICATIONS IF THEY NEED IT, THEY WILL GET IT AS

PATTY PLEASE STOP SHOUTING.

thank you.
Patty - 02 Mar 2004 12:51 GMT
Sorry, but I thougt a lot of ppl here found it hard to see the board.
Sorry!!
Patty
Evelyn Ruut - 02 Mar 2004 13:16 GMT
> Sorry, but I thougt a lot of ppl here found it hard to see the board.
> Sorry!!
> Patty

Hi Patty,

I kind of thought you didn't realize it was considered shouting to type in
all caps.  Anyway, now you know....

We are glad to have you here and your comments are always good.

Signature

Evelyn

(To reply to me personally, remove sox)

Songbird - 02 Mar 2004 15:53 GMT
And actually as someone who has studied type design and layout -- it is much
harder to read all caps. The brain has to work harder to decipher the
lengths of the words, etc. And I don't know about you -- but my brain works
hard enough!

An innocent mistake, though, Patty.

Songbird

> > Sorry, but I thougt a lot of ppl here found it hard to see the board.
> > Sorry!!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> We are glad to have you here and your comments are always good.
Dali - 02 Mar 2004 16:22 GMT
lol. my ears are ringing.

>> AS FAR AS SLEEPING MEDICATIONS IF THEY NEED IT, THEY WILL GET IT AS
>
>PATTY PLEASE STOP SHOUTING.
>
>thank you.
 
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