Dear Daphne,

That sounds like a very seriously dangerous situation, and if you haven't
gotten a lot of replies, it may be because no one has any suggestions to
offer in the face of such a strange failure to react to these dangerous
behaviors by the rest of your family.

I sincerely sympathize with your situation though, and hope you can
galvanize some family support towards controlling your mom.   It sounds
absolutely horrendous, not only for her but for all of you.

I am sure that there are medications which could help in stabilizing her and
bringing her to a more comfortable more contented state of mind, but you
need some cooperation and some sort of medical supervision to get on such a
regimen.

Even an attorney is probably powerless to do anything when most of the
immediate family isn't willing and committed to getting help.

Keep your courage up and keep doing the best you can.   Someone somewhere
ought to be able to help you.

Daphne,

Hi! Have been hearing your sadness, frustration and anguish. I don't have a
lot of wisdom. But, I am an attorney (non-practicing right now), so I though
you should know there is still something you can do if you are truly
desperate.

There is a tactic you can take. It's drastic. Your family will not be happy
with you (understatement). But it is expedient.

You can do the Adult protective services route - your father is interfering
in your desire to care for her appropriately.

Or the next time she lights a tissue  - call an ambulance, saying she is a
danger to herself or others - the route for a psychiatric commitment. It
will get her hospitalized at the local psych ward. They will do the
appropriate psych eval and see she is not lucid. That will get the ball
rolling toward medical care.

Either route will get you the appropriate documentation to go into court on
the day they do 'ex parte hearings' (hearings when only one party is
present. They are usually done once a week) and get temporary guardianship
over your mom. From there, you can act a bit more leisurely to get permanent
guardianship.

You will tend to make enemies of your family going this route. They will be
furious. But it will mean your mom and dad will finally be safe and your mom
will be on the road to getting appropriate care.

 Daphne, even though it will be hard for you, you MUST take over to keep
something terrible from happening to your parents.  Your dad just isn't
thinking straight either, or he would not let your mom keep the lighter so
she can set tissues on fire.  You have to protect them, whatever it takes.
You have my prayers.
 Gwen

 --
 =====================
 If there is no wind........row.
 =====================

 | Dennis
 |
 | I made a few calls today and it gets more complicated.  Guadianship
 | Services (recommended by the Alz Assoc) said I had to fill out forms
 | and have them signed by a doctor the submitted to court in order to
 | get guardianship.  I explained AGAIN, that she won't go to a doctor
 | and that's why we need guardianship.  He also said it could take 3 to
 | 10 weeks.  Too Long!  I think my best bet is to find an elder care
 | attorney.   (I think) the most drastic step is to call Adult
 | Protective Services, but it may become the only option.
 |
 | I think it's hard to think of listing the reasons someone needs to
 | take over.  It feels like I'm criticizing my father and brother.  They
 | have the capability to correct some of the problems but won't.  Okay,
 | I'm repeating myself.  Sorry.
 |
 | I saw first hand my mother light a kleenex on fire and watch it burn
 | in her hand.  My dad grabbed it, yelled at her and she yelled and
 | cursed at him (threatened to have her brothers kill him).   He won't
 | take the lighter away from her because it makes her angry and he does
 | anything to keep her calm.  His solution?  He bought a metal trash can
 | to throw the burning kleenex in!  I swear she's going to burn down the
 | house.
 |
 | I am being the adult and it's a strange position for me (to be in my
 | family).  But I'm rationalizing this by telling myself I'm doing
 | something necessary that my father and brother can't bring themselves
 | to do:  force a resolution before Mom or someone else gets hurt.
 |
 | Dennis you're a star for 'talking' to me.
 |
 | Thanks a million.
 |
 |
 | dpharris@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris) wrote in message
news:<mtt32095144d5n7kv7ir9scltikuc1kvak@4ax.com>...
 | > On 4 Feb 2004 16:52:21 -0800 in alt.support.alzheimers,
 | >
 | > > I have to get over the feeling that I'm being criticized by those
who
 | > > aren't willing to take on the responsiblity.
 | > >
 | > you simply have to ignore them and do what needs to be done.
 | > this is not a disease for the timid or those in denial, like your
 | > father and brother.  the only way to deal with it is to accept
 | > that things *will* get worse, try to plan ahead with leeway for
 | > the unexpected, grit your teeth, and head into the storm.
 | >
 | > someone has to be the adult now, and it apparently is you.  just
 | > do what you need to do to keep them safe and as healthy as
 | > possible, and don't feel guilty or second-guess yourself.
 | >
 | > you don't have to do it perfectly, because that's impossible with
 | > this messy disease.  you just have to *do* it with good intent.
 | > it's impossible to head into the unknown and not make a few
 | > mistakes, but don't let the worry you.  just deal with it a day
 | > at a time, and make sure that you set aside some quiet time for
 | > yourself.
 | >
 | > > Thanks so much for your concern.  I've been following this
newsgroup
 | > > for some time and see the wonderful care everyone gives.
 | > >

Since your father & brother are not willing to do what they
should, you should probably call them.  What's going on now is
really a form of abuse.  She obviously needs meds badly, as well
as a good assessment.  Protective services can take charge and
make sure she does get to a doctor for a diagnosis.  It would
help you prepare, however, to talk to an elder care attorney
beforehand so that you won't be blindsided if APS does become
involved.

Dear Daphne,

I am sure there are some saints around here, but I know that I am not among
them.   When Ida first came here to live she was utterly filthy.  She
smelled so bad that I was gagging from the odor clear at the other end of
the house.  Her clothing and body retained that awful odor for a long time
too, even after repeated washings.    Now she smells perfectly normal, after
getting baths on a regular basis all this time.

How did we get this done?   By bullying (the first couple of times).   My
husband walked into her room, told her to take off her things, and that by
golly, no fooling, come hell or high water she was GOING to take a shower,
like it or NOT!   She groused and carried on about it, and it was the
quickest shower on record, with her saying "OK now rinse off" every second,
but it was a whole new ballgame after that first one.

I have absolutely NO problem with her and showers now.   I have posted this
several times, but it can't hurt to say it again.   You have to pick the
timing just right.   I get her first thing in the morning before she has had
a chance to dress.   She is much more amenable then.

I make it a pleasant experience.   We have a shower chair in a stall shower
and a shower head on a hose.   I make sure she is comfortably seated and get
the water temp just right.   She approves it.   Then immediately I put
shampoo on her head.   The next thing is the shower puff.   I keep shower
gel in a pump bottle ready at hand, so that there is no time to complain or
try to end it too soon.   She constantly used to say "ok now rinse off" and
I would, but only to put more soap on.   I usually wear a tee shirt myself
and I don't care if I get splashed.

I can tell you that I never would have gotten her into that shower myself
the first time.  She would not obey me.    We were at our wits end in the
beginning, but there comes a time when you just have to put your foot down
and get something done.   This was one of those times.

It was positively a necessity that a person that filthy could not be in my
house even for another day.   I know this sounds strange to say, but after
that first shower, she seemed so much more human, so much more a real
person, more vulnerable, more like someone we wanted to protect.   Before
that we were planning to put her in a nursing home like instantly.   The
shower was the changing factor.

You will see that I am right about it.   But the beginning is pretty
difficult.   I have no idea how you would get things rolling, and I always
have said that the early stages are the worst.

Oh, and I have to tell you a little chuckle.   After that first shower or
two, Ida groused to her son in Estonian.... "Gee this place is like living
on a war ship.... they make you shower"   Of course at this stage that would
be a pretty difficult thought or sentence for her to put together, but then
it was really pretty funny and we had a couple of good private laughs over
it.

I guess my point is that at some point someone had to put their foot down,
and it was my husband's mom, so he got the job of doing so.

One more point.   You know it was the habit of many people of their
generation to take a bath once a week on a Saturday night.   My dad still
does that.   You might say something like "It is Saturday now, we should all
take a bath.... you go first"    It might work.

10, 2004, 4:47pm (CST-2) From: daphne52@snowdrift.com (Daphne)
Lisa,
My mother will not go to the doctor under any circumstances. I've been
trying to find out the name of the doctor my mother has appointment
with. The appointment is March 3rd, but I doubt Dad let them know how
serious the problem is. I want to call the doctor but I have to get the
name out of my father first.
As if I need one more problem, Dad is now sick with a cold or the flu
(nothing serious) so he's gone to bed and I'm having to deal with Mom.
  She was watching the dog eat and is now sleeping on the floor next
to the dog's bowl.   I'm happy to leave her there since it's now
quiet.
I've only gone through this for 10 days and can't even imagine how all
of you have gone through this for years. You are all saints.
Daphne
___________________________________

Speaking for myself, I ain't no saint.  

There must be 'some' way to find out her doctors name & number.   Go
snoop.  

Your mother is sleeping on the floor next to the dogs bowl.... and you
are grateful (I do understand), but you are in a very serious situation.  

Does your brother know that she is 'sleeping next to the dogs bowl?   Im
not sure what he knows vs what he denies.  

I read in another post that you are in the Dallas area (we are
practically neighbors).   I took my dad to the (Dallas) Veterans
Hospital emergency room that night.   Is your dad a Vet? Just
wondering... maybe they have the same sort of help for spouses...(?)


LisaNew@webtv.net (Lisa) wrote in message
news:<11494-4025C5BF-136@storefull-3118.bay.webtv.net>...
Daphne:
How did you get your mother (?) treatment when she refused. We can't
find anyone to see Mom without her permission.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We explained the situation when we entered the emergency room.   My
dad didn't want to stay, but they did admit him. They didnt ask if I was
his guardian, but I did tell them he was living with me.
I did mention that he was a danger to himself. They kept him for 2 weeks
and got him diagnosed and stabilized. Hmmm, your situation is different
from mine... my dad would get in the car with me.   Since you don't
think your mother would leave with you, I don't know if the emergency
room would work in your case.   Your dad probably wouldn't agree. (?).
Evelyn had an excellent idea to take your mother for a 'routine'
physical.   I bet your father would even go for that. When you speak
with the doctor beforehand, sound desperate, because you are!   Don't
leave anything out.   You may want to try to arrange (beforehand) with
the doctor to get her admitted for a time.
The night I took my dad to get help, he (we all) had been up for 3 days,
with very little sleep.   He was pacing, tearing up the house, tearing
off his clothes, going to the bathroom wherever.
The way we looked when we walked in the emergency room, I don't think we
would have had a problem with them admitting all three of us!
Changing your moms underpants, well, it hurts, I know.   There is
going to be a lot more hurts and shocks in the future (just being
honest). The roles have changed.

Yes, it was difficult - but it wasn't as difficult as receiving the phone call
telling me she was found at 1AM wandering the streets in her pajamas, in a
horribly nasty section of town.  It wasn't as difficult as waking up every morning
with a knot in my stomach, wondering if I should call her ... for fear that she
wouldn't answer the phone and I wouldn't know if she was safe or not.  It wasn't
as difficult as sitting in the room for hours with her, listening to her talk
about the cars that were being built in the hallway ... about the mouse in the
corner who was vomiting ... or all the other things she was so serious about, that
just weren't happening.  Life is not easy.  Relief did not come into play until
days later, when I finally realized that I was sleeping and the phone wasn't
ringing in the wee hours, when it dawned on me that I was no longer apprehensive
about waking up in the morning, when I accepted the fact that she was finally safe
from harm and I did what I had to do, instead of pussyfooting around worrying
about her being angry.

My dad passed away 12 years ago, so he wasn't a stumbling block.  I have 3
siblings, 2 nearby (within 45 minutes) and 1 out of state.  Truth be told, none
were contacted by me until after all was said and done.  One brother was very
supportive, one was in denial but still helpful.  Then again, since I hold power
of attorney, not much they could do if they didn't like the decision I made
anyway.  We had been trying to get her into drs. for quite some time prior to
this, she was always able to charm her way through the appointments.  If she
slipped up, she would berate us (we always accompanied her into the examining
room).  The dr. was well aware of what we were dealing with.  We had tried many
avenues, she was unwilling and unbending.  I don't have the answers to your
questions as you what your dad can and can't do - can only tell you how I would
handle it.  IF my dad put up the stumbling blocks, then mom would have to become
his sole responsibility and I would remove myself from the situation.  I would not
subject myself to further heartache.  I can be very tough, have to be in order to
retain my own sanity.  I will not be used, I will not allow myself to be abused.  

When my mom was first admitted to the psych hospital, she insisted I take her
home.  I told her I couldn't.  She asked again, again I refused.  She started
screaming at me, told me she hated me and had no use for me at all - told me to
leave and never come back.  I left .. alone.  It was tough, it had to be done.  I
received a phone call 2 hours later from her, asking when I would be coming to
visit.  She didn't remember what she had said previously, I didn't remind her.  

I feel safe in saying that ALL of us have been there - in one way or another.  We
did what had to be done, despite the unpleasantness in all of it.  Many fought
battles with family and friends, many didn't.  I do believe that the only ones who
fight the issue are those that are unwilling to take care of the situation
themselves.  THEY don't want to be the caregiver, they don't want to deal with any
of it.  It is very easy to pass the buck and blame onto someone else, it's harder
to act like the adult and take the necessary action.

Joyce