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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / January 2008

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baby aspirin - strokes

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John M - 20 Jan 2008 12:40 GMT
I think my mother has had small strokes.  She's dragging her right foot
a bit and her right eye seems to be a bit more closed than her left.
Took her to the doctor last week and I believe he recommended baby
aspirin once a day.  At least I think that's what he said.  Would this
be something like St. Joseph's aspirin for children? Anyone else run
into a case where a daily dose of aspirin is recommended? Is this some
regular thing for stroke patients? I guess the baby or children's thing
is to keep down the dosage.

Thanks,
John
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 20 Jan 2008 14:36 GMT
John, if you can SEE the effects of the strokes, she hasn't been
having tiny strokes - mini-strokes are subtle, and don't have overt
symptoms like foot dragging and her eyes wandering. GET ANOTHER
DOCTOR. She needs a brain scan to see what is going on, and a visit to
a specialist to determine the best course of action. There may be
nothing that could be done, but her doctor is not taking appropriate
action to determine a diagnosis.

Mary G.
John M - 20 Jan 2008 20:22 GMT
Thank you.  I've assumed that the doctor has not given me a referral for
a specialist because he figured nothing could be done, but perhaps I've
overestimated his competance.

John

> John, if you can SEE the effects of the strokes, she hasn't been
> having tiny strokes - mini-strokes are subtle, and don't have overt
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Mary G.
John M - 20 Jan 2008 21:30 GMT
I don't think I was entirely clear.  Her eyes seem to follow you all
right it's just that her right eyelid seems to shut a bit more than her
left.  I've been thinking about changing doctors.  The one she has now
seems loathe to make referrals as a matter of course.  Brought to mind
something I'd read somewhere that in certain managed care situations
doctors are given bonuses based on not racking up testing and specialist
visitation bills.  That being said my mother has advanced Alzheimers,
that diagnosis being based on a CAT scan and the observations of a
neurologist.  She hasn't spoken in about 15 months and her balance
(outside of her right side problems) has been getting worse.  When she
first got her diagnosis, about 5 years ago, the neurologist was talking
about seeing her every three months.  I did this a couple of times and
it did seem to me to be a waste of time.  The neurologist just gave her
the standard few questions quiz (a bit difficult as she is very hard of
hearing and even then, early on, could not figure out her hearing aids
anymore) and occasionally wrote her aricept and namenda perscriptions
when the refills ran out.

Her current doctor noticed something called cogwheel rigidity which he
thinks is Parkinson's though if it's that it must be mild because the
shaking is fairly rare.  I shall have to talk to her insurer (HIP).  I
think her doctors (at least her primary care physicians) used to be the
insurer's direct employees but there are now new layers of bureaucracy
and they're just sitting atop a multitude of approved doctors, doctor's
groups and hospitals.

Maybe I'll vote for Kusinich.  I'm beginning to think a single payer
system is the only way to clear up a muddled medical system.  Might save
some money too.

thanks

John

> John, if you can SEE the effects of the strokes, she hasn't been
> having tiny strokes - mini-strokes are subtle, and don't have overt
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Mary G.
Dennis P. Harris - 21 Jan 2008 05:07 GMT
> Brought to mind
> something I'd read somewhere that in certain managed care situations
> doctors are given bonuses based on not racking up testing and specialist
> visitation bills.

If she's over 65, Medicare should pay.  presuming you are in the
US.
Dennis P. Harris - 21 Jan 2008 05:05 GMT
> I think my mother has had small strokes.  She's dragging her right foot
> a bit and her right eye seems to be a bit more closed than her left.
> Took her to the doctor last week and I believe he recommended baby
> aspirin once a day.  At least I think that's what he said.  Would this
> be something like St. Joseph's aspirin for children?

yes, but.  if that's ALL he recommended, and didn't recommend
that she get a full neuro assessment to determine the extent of
damage and what possible rehab she should have, IT'S TIME TO
CHANGE DOCTORS.

it sounds to me like he's trying to blow you off, or that he has
little knowledge of what should be done.  you really should ask
for a referral to a neurologist or stroke specialist.
Adelle - 21 Jan 2008 19:12 GMT
>> I think my mother has had small strokes.  She's dragging her right foot
>> a bit and her right eye seems to be a bit more closed than her left.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> little knowledge of what should be done.  you really should ask
> for a referral to a neurologist or stroke specialist.

Have to agree with Dennis here. I think there  may be some ageism at work
here. Or perhaps a 'failure to communicate' the assumptions upon which the
medical advice was based.

When someone presents this way, there is usually a referral to a neurologist
to find out the cause of the stroke. For one kind, a blood clot, baby
aspirin  is appropriate because it is a blood thinner and reduces the
chances of another clot.. [If you don't treat a clot related stroke within
hours, the damage is done, no clot busting drugs will help to reduce the
impact of the stroke.]

But if the stroke was from a bleed, then aspirin could actually exacerbate
the problem and even cause more strokes. The failure of the doc to tell you
this, explain why he thinks its clot related thus needing the aspirin is
enough to make me run to another doctor for a second opinion - covered by
insurers and Medicare. Its just plain dismissive.

And unless your mom is so affected by her dementia (and I'm assuming that's
an issue, because you came to our group and not another) that she couldn't
follow what they were asking of her, the failure to even discuss rehab and
why it may or may not be appropriate is also a failure on the doc's part.

We found a considerable amount of dismissiveness from doctors as my parents
aged. We understand some medical care needs to be rationed, to spend our
medical and tax dollars wisely. But in this case, even if the course of
treatment is correct, the failure to explain the rationale behind it tells
me the doc falls into the group I term lazy, even if its not a fair label.
They are either overworked, distracted, or are too much linear thinkers,
failing to provide enough info so that patients or their caregivers can make
informed decisions and actions.

Adelle
John M - 21 Jan 2008 21:34 GMT
One reponse in line

>>>I think my mother has had small strokes.  She's dragging her right foot
>>>a bit and her right eye seems to be a bit more closed than her left.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> follow what they were asking of her, the failure to even discuss rehab and
> why it may or may not be appropriate is also a failure on the doc's part.

Actually she is very advanced.  Hasn't spoken in about 15 months.
Doesn't understand language.  Is unable to get out of a chair without
assistance.  I still think I'll try to get her to a neurologist.  I
think for something like $75 a month HIP gives you the option to see
specialists without a referral.  Lowers the cost of copays for generic
drugs too.  Maybe I'll change doctors too.
Thanks for your response.
John

> We found a considerable amount of dismissiveness from doctors as my parents
> aged. We understand some medical care needs to be rationed, to spend our
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Adelle
Evelyn Ruut - 21 Jan 2008 22:21 GMT
John, if she is as advanced as you say, the doctor could be honoring a DNR.
Are you sure this isn't the case?   I almost hate to say this, but it could
be a blessing in disguise.   Doing anything heroic to save her might simply
doom her to a death from alzheimers itself.   My mother in law (mercifully)
died of pancreatic cancer before she got to that point.   She had a DNR
document in place (Do Not Rescuscitate) as was required by the nursing home
when they accepted her as a patient.   They still treated her for anything
she had to the best of their ability, but heroic efforts, as would be done
for an otherwise healthy young person, were not done.
Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

> One reponse in line
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>>
>> Adelle
John M - 22 Jan 2008 11:43 GMT
I believe she is DNR.  At any rate, I have medical power of attorney and
I'm certain that would be her wish.  The only reason to pursue anything
is to cut down on the possibility that she's in pain.  Hence my
questions about aspirin.  Pain and the possibility that she's lonely or
frightened are the things that worry me most.  I've tried to impress on
the home health aides that it is not a good idea to leave her alone for
too long even if she's no longer capable of getting up and hurting
herself in a fall.  I'm fairly sure if you leave the room for a moment
or two that, for all she knows, she's all alone.  Some of the aides are
really good about keeping her company but it's a tough job if you do it
right.  I almost wish the agency didn't divide the day into two people
doing 12 hour shifts.  It'd probably be easier to keep her company if
you only had 8 or less.

John

> John, if she is as advanced as you say, the doctor could be honoring a
> DNR. Are you sure this isn't the case?   I almost hate to say this, but
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> heroic efforts, as would be done for an otherwise healthy young person,
> were not done.
stellalouise03@gmail.com - 22 Jan 2008 10:46 GMT
If she's having TIA's (mini strokes) and she has advanced Alzheimers,
then the doctor acted appropriately.  What good would it do to put a
confused person through all the tests, CT scans, MRI's?  What ever the
outcome of the tests, it's not going to change the outcome of the
Alzheimers.  Just love her, and don't make her go to strange doctors
and have strange tests.  That would be cruel.
Stellalouise

> Actually she is very advanced.  Hasn't spoken in about 15 months.
> Doesn't understand language.  Is unable to get out of a chair without
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thanks for your response.
> John
Adelle - 22 Jan 2008 15:20 GMT
If she's having TIA's (mini strokes) and she has advanced Alzheimers,
then the doctor acted appropriately.  What good would it do to put a
confused person through all the tests, CT scans, MRI's?  What ever the
outcome of the tests, it's not going to change the outcome of the
Alzheimers.  Just love her, and don't make her go to strange doctors
and have strange tests.  That would be cruel.
Stellalouise

Have to agree with that. But am still uncomfortable with the advice about
adding baby aspirin without explanation of *why* the doc thinks the strokes
are clot related and not bleed related. I prefer docs who err on the side of
giving lots of information instead of less.

Adelle

> Actually she is very advanced. Hasn't spoken in about 15 months.
> Doesn't understand language. Is unable to get out of a chair without
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thanks for your response.
> John
Evelyn Ruut - 22 Jan 2008 15:42 GMT
> If she's having TIA's (mini strokes) and she has advanced Alzheimers,
> then the doctor acted appropriately.  What good would it do to put a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Adelle

Perhaps you are right, but.......  I thought about it as if it were me.   If
it was me I would let nature take its course.  Having been through the
alzheimer bit with my MIL, I would not stop something that could conceivably
end it.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

>> Actually she is very advanced. Hasn't spoken in about 15 months.
>> Doesn't understand language. Is unable to get out of a chair without
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Thanks for your response.
>> John
Tumbleweed - 26 Jan 2008 23:22 GMT
> Actually she is very advanced.  Hasn't spoken in about 15 months. Doesn't
> understand language.  Is unable to get out of a chair without assistance.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thanks for your response.
> John

WOW, that is some major new info you posted out of the blue!
Your original post made it sound like your mother was previously fine but
now had a drooping eyelid or some such that was being cruelly ignored by an
incompetent doctor!

The facts as we now know them;
She can't speak. She can't understand, she can't stand, she can't walk.
And you focus on one eyelid possibly drooping a bit?

I suspect the doctor prescribed the asprinin as a palliative, not for your
mother,  but for you, so you think something is being done.

What do you *really* think a neurologist could do if she is that far
advanced? What difference do you think a new doctor would provide? I think
you inadvertently *seriously* mislead the previous responders to your post.

You know there is only one way this disease ends, why try and prolong it,
with, as another poster said, all sorts of pointless, confusing and possibly
traumatic tests that your mother can't understand and more to the point wont
benefit from.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

John M - 27 Jan 2008 11:57 GMT
Actually, I'd posted about my mother a few times before.  The only
reason I'm thinking about a neurologist is that I'm a bit worried that
she may be in pain and I'd sort of like to have a better idea about
what's going on.  Her doctor had also mentioned at one point that she
had cogwheel rigidity which is either Parkinson's or a reaction to some
drug that she isn't taking.  Although she doesn't show signs of a tremor
very often, I'd sort of like to know about the Parkinson's which he did
not put in her medical record.  By now she's got 24 hour home health
aide folks and, at a minimum, I'd sort of like to know if maybe her
condition would mean that more of that humongous sum of money spent on
home care is tax deductible.

Although there's no cure for what ails her, she hasn't seen a
neurologist in about three years.  I don't think it would bankrupt the
nation's health care system is she was to see a specialist once in while.

It would also seem that there's a problem with posts showing up.  I'd
responded to Mary Gordon's response the same day she'd replied - also
the same day as the original post (1/20):

"I don't think I was entirely clear.  Her eyes seem to follow you all
right it's just that her right eyelid seems to shut a bit more than her
left.  I've been thinking about changing doctors.  The one she has now
seems loathe to make referrals as a matter of course.  Brought to mind
something I'd read somewhere that in certain managed care situations
doctors are given bonuses based on not racking up testing and specialist
visitation bills.  That being said my mother has advanced Alzheimers,
that diagnosis being based on a CAT scan and the observations of a
neurologist.  She hasn't spoken in about 15 months and her balance
(outside of her right side problems) has been getting worse.  When she
first got her diagnosis, about 5 years ago, the neurologist was talking
about seeing her every three months.  I did this a couple of times and
it did seem to me to be a waste of time.  The neurologist just gave her
the standard few questions quiz (a bit difficult as she is very hard of
hearing and even then, early on, could not figure out her hearing aids
anymore) and occasionally wrote her aricept and namenda perscriptions
when the refills ran out.

Her current doctor noticed something called cogwheel rigidity which he
thinks is Parkinson's though if it's that it must be mild because the
shaking is fairly rare.  I shall have to talk to her insurer (HIP).  I
think her doctors (at least her primary care physicians) used to be the
insurer's direct employees but there are now new layers of bureaucracy
and they're just sitting atop a multitude of approved doctors, doctor's
groups and hospitals.

Maybe I'll vote for Kusinich.  I'm beginning to think a single payer
system is the only way to clear up a muddled medical system.  Might save
some money too.

thanks

John"

Also posted this on 1/22 in response to an Evelyn Ruut post dated 1/21:

"I believe she is DNR.  At any rate, I have medical power of attorney
and I'm certain that would be her wish.  The only reason to pursue
anything is to cut down on the possibility that she's in pain.  Hence my
questions about aspirin.  Pain and the possibility that she's lonely or
frightened are the things that worry me most.  I've tried to impress on
the home health aides that it is not a good idea to leave her alone for
too long even if she's no longer capable of getting up and hurting
herself in a fall.  I'm fairly sure if you leave the room for a moment
or two that, for all she knows, she's all alone.  Some of the aides are
really good about keeping her company but it's a tough job if you do it
right.  I almost wish the agency didn't divide the day into two people
doing 12 hour shifts.  It'd probably be easier to keep her company if
you only had 8 or less.

John"

I'm using an old mac with an old os so I'm not sure what's going on but
I assumed repeated postings wouldn't help.  They do show up at my end
(using AT&T Worldnet).  My best guess is that EddyJean has hacked Yahoo
and is arbitralily deleting posts.

>>Actually she is very advanced.  Hasn't spoken in about 15 months. Doesn't
>>understand language.  Is unable to get out of a chair without assistance.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> traumatic tests that your mother can't understand and more to the point wont
> benefit from.
 
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