Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / October 2007
nasty
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William Stacy, O.D. - 12 Oct 2007 06:20 GMT Is nasty a part of alzheimers? My mom is undergoing a series of tests to try to find out exactly what her problem is, but lately she is becoming more agressive and nasty in her interactions with family.
She's always had a bit of a mean/nasty streak in her around family, esp. in-laws, but it seems a bit excessive since we got her relocated in a senior living situation and have been going through the medical maze to try to get a definitive diagnosis.
My question is, is it a characteristic of A's, or dementias, or can it just be her old nasty personality rearing its ugly head?
I'm starting to think that institutionalizing her may be the only option, so any advice would be appreciated. (She is driving my wife, who has been trying to help her, nuts)
w.stacy
Baird Stafford - 12 Oct 2007 10:03 GMT > Is nasty a part of alzheimers? My mom is undergoing a series of tests > to try to find out exactly what her problem is, but lately she is > becoming more agressive and nasty in her interactions with family. Paranoia is one of the "classic" symptoms, and frequently leads to abrasive (or "nasty") interaction with others.
> She's always had a bit of a mean/nasty streak in her around family, esp. > in-laws, but it seems a bit excessive since we got her relocated in a > senior living situation and have been going through the medical maze to > try to get a definitive diagnosis. You may get no diagnosis more definitive than "dementia." The paranoia I mentioned above, however, could easily exacerbate her aggression towards her family. I would suggest this is more likely to be the disease than her old nasty personality, however.
> My question is, is it a characteristic of A's, or dementias, or can it > just be her old nasty personality rearing its ugly head?
> I'm starting to think that institutionalizing her may be the only > option, so any advice would be appreciated. (She is driving my wife, who > has been trying to help her, nuts) You mentioned a "senior living situation" above. If this does not include medical care for her, you might well want to rethink your options. Some assisted living facilities, however, do offer medical care (the Dowager is in one such); if that is her "senior living situation," you might check on what else the company offers. If they don't offer medical care, then, yes, "institutionalizing" her may be your only choice.
You might keep in mind, though, that if she has had to move out of her old house into a new environment, all this may be almost as hard on her as it is on you.
Baird
Evelyn Ruut - 12 Oct 2007 14:11 GMT > Is nasty a part of alzheimers? My mom is undergoing a series of tests to > try to find out exactly what her problem is, but lately she is becoming [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > w.stacy There are probably a million reasons for that kind of nastiness. Let me try and find a few for you. The first one is paranoia.... they think that their kids are trying to "make me out to be crazy" for some nefarious reason. They think that since they can't remember where they put their bankbooks or their money or their jewelry, that someone has come in and taken it. They are losing their autonomy. People are talking to them and acting with them, as though they were crazy, making their decisions for them, moving them or their belongings here or there, without their knowledge (even though you may have discussed it in detail, they don't remember the discussion).
But besides all that, there is some genuine nastiness that comes with the illness. They forget who their loved ones are and think it is a stranger who is being overly familiar with them. They feel they are on a visit that they are going to go home from, but they don't know how to get back to their familiar home (even though it may be a childhood home long gone in time).
So those are just a handful of reasons. Think carefully and find out if her nastiness is connected with depression, because VERY often it is. When my mother in law went on Zoloft, an antidepressant, she became relaxed and much happier, and stopped the nastiness at least to some degree, where it was possible to live with her and care for her without some feisty and even physical reactions.
There are real reasons for the depression, and the depression itself is a real thing. Brain chemistry goes all awry with alzheimers. The person's actual physical brain is shrinking and atrophying. There are changes associated with that, and they often manifest as personality changes and/or depression, or even delusions.
Please tell your dear wife, that it absolutely isn't her fault, and it isn't personal. She may possibly be regarded as an intrusive stranger, not really recognized anymore, by your mom. This is a physical disease of the brain. All sorts of weird behavior can be expected, and indeed should be.
One time my mother in law began yelling at me rudely, thinking I was some stranger who had her in a car, and who wouldn't take her home fast enough. It was the most hellish ride of my life. I kept telling her who I was and it did no good, she had no idea who I was. I had taken her with me on a visit to my family in NJ to keep her out of my husbands hair while he did some work at our house, and she was going ballistic with me a hundred miles from home! Thank goodness, after a hellish ride, I finally got her home and she told my husband (whom she DID recognize) that some strange woman had her in a taxi and was driving her all over the place and was refusing to take her home. He told her that was no 'strange woman,' that was Evelyn, and she just looked at me strangely and went to bed. The next morning she again knew who I was and there was no problem at all.
It's a strange disease. I know it is hard, but you just cannot take this stuff personally. No matter how it hurts, it isn't about you, it is the twistings and turnings of confused thinking from a truly sick brain. Tell your wife, that if she goes away for a day or an hour, or returns again the next morning, it will be a clean slate again. If there is something GOOD to say about the manifestations of this disease, it is that they do forget, again and again. And that is also the BAD part of alzheimers... they do forget over and over again. There were times when we'd had serious words with one another, and the next morning ..... GONE. There were times I was grateful for that. Dealing with alzheimers is a lesson for us (who do remember), in how to let go.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 13 Oct 2007 00:45 GMT Hi Bill - personality changes go with the territory. She also will be losing her inhibitions and understanding of social niceties - she'll say whatever comes into her head, and won't be able to stop herself, much less realize the impact the words may have on others.
They often have very limited insight into their own situation or behavior, no matter how blindingly obvious things may seem to those around them.
The brain damage also means they can't reason, much less remember, so the world is a frustrating and stressful jumble. Agitation and outbursts (called catastrophic reactions) are not uncommon, particularly when they feel stressed (tired, hungry, sick, too many demands being made on them, too much going on around them)too many deemandtoo much elenen
I know it is very hard, but you just can't take it personally. One of the hardest lessons in dealing with dementia is to know the person is past the point of doing things on purpose. The old labels of mean, stubborn, being difficult, trying to annoy etc. - all those need an intact brain to pull off all that conscious plotting and scheming. You have to put a new spin on their behavior and accept they are doing the best they can with what their brains will allow. So, as your wife has likely discovered, arguing and reasoning get you nowhere.
Its crummy.
Mary G.
august - 13 Oct 2007 01:28 GMT > Is nasty a part of alzheimers? My mom is undergoing a series of tests to > try to find out exactly what her problem is, but lately she is becoming [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > w.stacy You have gotten some good answers.
Yes, AD and dementia patients often have a mean, nasty and/or paranoic stage. Never take their remarks personally because the person making them has a broken brain. Do not waste your time trying to make them acknowledge their rude behavior or recognize the wrongness of their actions or words. This won't happen because the part of the brain that accomplishes this type self analysis is also probably broken beyond repair. And yes- ignoring their insults is very hard to do.
Remind yourself and your wife that these mean stages are usually temporary and often the next stage (at least with vascular dementia) is often child-like and agreeable behavior - much like a puppy that knows you are the person who feeds them and is therefore usually willing to try and please you as best they are able. That's not much to look forward to but it beats staying pissed off and angry about a situation that you can not change. AW
William Stacy, O.D. - 13 Oct 2007 03:56 GMT Well thanks for all the answers. The thing is, my mom has always had this nasty streak in her, and it would come out occasionally, like on holidays and family get togethers. Now it seems to be coming out every 2nd or 3rd day. Today was fine. I took my wife off the case and decided to handle her myself (because as many have pointed out, one has to not take this crap personally, and Sharon seems to be unable to not take it personally).
Fortunately, I'm semi-retired (don't start work until 11:00) so I can actually do some of this running around (yesterday to the psych eval, today to the echo-cardiogram, etc) myself without too much stress. And I do seem to be able to write off a lot of the nasties to the disease.
It was interesting yesterday, the social worker interviewed her, then the nurse checked her out, then the honcho came in to try to convince her to undergo some intensive "outpatient" therapy, which really was more like daytime inpatient stuff for 6 hours a day, then home. She said no way no how. So that was that.
And to be fair, today she was pretty well behaved. Apologetic, really about yesterday and seemed concerned that Sharon was not with me. Her lucidity and energy seems to contradict the Alz. Dx. so I still think the jury is out on that one. I'm not sure if I favor her having Alz or schizophrenia...
And amazingly enough, she seems to be taking her meds pretty well. One of the nice things about this little automatic pill dispenser I bought is that you can see the ones she's taken out and the ones she hasn't. Unfortunately it doesn't tell me what she did with the pills after she took them out... I guess I could put a web cam in there... maybe not...
Stay tuned.
thanks again
bill
Baird Stafford - 13 Oct 2007 09:30 GMT <snip>
> And to be fair, today she was pretty well behaved. Apologetic, really > about yesterday and seemed concerned that Sharon was not with me. Her > lucidity and energy seems to contradict the Alz. Dx. so I still think > the jury is out on that one. I'm not sure if I favor her having Alz or > schizophrenia... She will go back and forth, if my experience with the Dowager is any clue. Even now, during the final stages of the disease, she has some days when she can answer me in complete sentences (though they often have no relation to what I've just said to her), and others when all she can do is hum the little ditty that has kept her company for the past year or so. And I don't know which kind of day it will be until I see her.
During the earlier stages of the disease, she was lucid and energetic some days and lethargic and wandering on others. She never went through personally aimed paranoia like you're having to deal with, thank all the gods! - but there was a period when she was absolutely convinced that the government had stolen all her furniture and replaced it with pieces that looked exactly like her *real* stuff. That was...interesting...to deal with.
Baird
Dennis P. Harris - 13 Oct 2007 09:31 GMT > Well thanks for all the answers. The thing is, my mom has always had > this nasty streak in her, and it would come out occasionally, like on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to not take this crap personally, and Sharon seems to be unable to not > take it personally). there are good days and bad days. any kind of physical stress, including infections, can make a bad day. it's not schizophrenia.
and there is a syndrome known as going-to-the-doctor syndrome. the demented person will exert a lot of effort during the visit with doctor/pastor/old friends and then collapse or revert once the visit is over, exhausted from the effort needed to hold everything together for a few hours.
i once took my mom in for an unannounced MMRI (memory evaluation test) and she performed just fine, but on the way to the next apppointment she was totally confused, had no idea of what day it was or where we were going, although it was a regular weekly appointment with her respiratory therapist.
if she was cranky and nasty before the dementia, you can be assured that until her memory gets much worse (the point where she gives up trying to keep it all together, and just lets folks guide her around) she will probably get crankier and nastier as her ability to control and remember slips away. paranoia can make someone really cranky --- because they have no short term memory, it's always someone else who hides the checkbook/money or other valuables, who uses up the food, who changed the TV channel. they have no insight into their affliction at all.
please buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" --- you and your wife need to read it in order to understand how to cope. available in the health section of any large bookstore.
William Stacy, O.D. - 13 Oct 2007 18:19 GMT > please buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" --- you and your wife need > to read it in order to understand how to cope. available in the > health section of any large bookstore. It, along with 2 others are on the way from amazon.com right now.
The other 2 I ordered are "What if it's not Alzheimer's" and "The Fearless Caregiver"
I never really wanted to become an expert in this field, but I'm afraid I'm on my way...
Baird Stafford - 13 Oct 2007 21:06 GMT <snip>
> I never really wanted to become an expert in this field, but I'm afraid > I'm on my way... One of the usual greetings to those who join this newsgroup is, "Welcome the club that *nobody* wants to join...."
The hardest thing I found to deal with was the necessity to remember that none of the Dowager's problems, nor the problems she caused for the rest of the family, were *her* fault. All of them were due to the disease. It doesn't really matter whether it's Alzheimer's or another form of dementia, the symptoms are so similar that everyone has been welcomed while I've been here.
Baird
Evelyn Ruut - 13 Oct 2007 22:21 GMT >> please buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" --- you and your wife need >> to read it in order to understand how to cope. available in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I never really wanted to become an expert in this field, but I'm afraid > I'm on my way... Welcome to the club nobody really wants to join, William. All of us have been in your shoes at one time or another, with either a husband, a wife, a mother, or a father. Some have been through it with a neighbor, an aunt or an uncle.
Yes, it is important to get yourself educated about it, and I am glad to see you feel it is a necessary thing as well. This newsgroup got me through several years of some really rough times. It's a very valuable resource.
When you have a difficult time seeing changes in a loved one, and you don't know what to do, it is amazing how much of a comfort it is to speak with someone who has gone down that road before you.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 13 Oct 2007 17:38 GMT Bill, fluctuations in cognition are part of most dementias. One day they can do something, next day they can't. Loopy all week, coherent next week. Good in the morning, not so good by afternoon.
Part of it is a function of how they are in other ways, both physically and emotionally. After all, if you are tired, stressed, hungry, irritated, or have a cold or a pain, you are not as sharp mentally as you are at other times. You may even feel foggy brained - and if you layer that feeling on top of her Alzheimer's, it can translate to a very noticable decline in cognition.
Sometimes families notice a pattern to it, and can time activities to coincide with times the person seems to be at their best (i.e. planning the stressful bathing in the morning rather than evening).
A lot of times, there just is no predicting. There are a couple of the dementias with a hallmark of major fluctuations, such as Lewy Body Dementia.
The brain is a strange thing, is it not? I'm kind of blown away by the "honcho's" suggestion she attend a therapy program 6 hours a day. What kind of therapy? Exactly what does this guy think therapy is going to accomplish if she does indeed have an organic, progressive, incurable nuerological disease like AD or Lewy Body?
M.
William Stacy, O.D. - 13 Oct 2007 18:25 GMT I'm kind of blown away by the
> "honcho's" suggestion she attend a therapy program 6 hours a day. What > kind of therapy? Exactly what does this guy think therapy is going to > accomplish if she does indeed have an organic, progressive, incurable > nuerological disease like AD or Lewy Body? > > M. Well it's a big mental hospital and I suppose they have group programs that could be helpful. I think the reason the PCP referred me there is at least they got her in quick (1 day) as compared to the probable 30 day wait for a private appt with a shrink. The PCP takes the suicide threats seriously. I'm kinda getting used to them.
One thing about the fluctuations in cognition, energy, etc. I'm pretty darned sure that nutrition is a big component. She was extremely frail, dizzy, and disoriented when we arrived at her house 2 months ago. The first week we were there she landed in the emergency room 3 times. There was not much worth eating in the house.
Now she's getting 2 or 3 squares a day and has not been in the ER since, she walks without a cane, walker or assistance now, and her short term memory has definitely improved. Still some major holes in it, but nothing like back in Montana.
Mon I take her in to the vascular surgeon as the carotids seem clogged. Will report back on that one. Her brother just had one side reamed out...
bill
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 14 Oct 2007 05:03 GMT Ask Evelyn about her mother in law and food. It was a similar situation when she was still living alone. Essentially not eating properly at all, and she definitely perked up once she was at Evelyn's house getting three squares a day.
My husband's aunt (1909-1992) used to survive on chocolate bars, toast and tea, and not much else, and down tons of pain pills for her osteoporosis. She sat in her little apartment all day not moving, getting frailer and frailer from lousy nutrition and lack of activity. She was addicted to "222"s (dunno if they even make those any more), with codeine in them. In the frail elderly, codeine isn't properly processed from the body, and it can actually accumulate. She was absolutely loopy from the lousy nutrition and the pills - and no one realized what was happening. We all thought she was getting Alzheimer's (we were getting middle of the night phone calls from one very confused Auntie Kay). The assisted living place dragged her off to the doctor (literally screaming she was being kidnapped) and searched her room. They took all the pills away, and cut off her supply (assorted friends and relatives she had buying them for her), and poof, she came around amazingly fast.
Not eating properly is for sure a component in overall decline. One contributing factor for those with Alzheimer's is that they lose most of their sense of smell early in the illness, which means most of their sense of taste goes as well - which impacts appetite. It also can mean they can't tell when food is spoiling. Shopping, handling money, food prep - all complicated, all require memory and understanding sequences and being able to do things in a particular order, the whole thing gets to be too much very early.
With my MIL, before she went into assisted living, we hired a housekeeper who came in to her apartment for half days, five days a week. The housekeeper got her bathed and dressed for the day, and gave her breakfast, and made her up a lunch (sandwich on a plate etc), as well as cleaning, doing laundry, and making sure there was food in the cupboards and fridge. Then "Meals on Wheels" would bring her a hot dinner. My MIL would insist she didn't need the help, but I know if we hadn't made those arrangements for three good meals a day, she would have been eating the tea and toast her sister subsisted on - or maybe cans of soup, and nothing else. At the time, she was still trying to recover from the trauma of a broken hip, and she NEEDED to eat to regain some lost weight.
Easy to see how they can get into a spiral, dementia or no dementia.
M.
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