Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / August 2007
How Do You Help When They Won't Let You?
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Robyn - 08 Aug 2007 16:22 GMT Hi, This is my first post here, and I'm lost. :-) My 88 year old great aunt has been diagnosed with dementia and I have no clue what to do. Apparently the diagnosis was over a year ago and she never told us. I knew she was getting forgetful, but it suddenly started getting worse. When she couldn't figure out her doctor's appointment, she asked us to take her, and the doctor told my husband of the diagnosis.
Now we've got a bad situation. She needs help, but won't allow it. We have no real idea of her financial situation, or what insurance she has, and she won't tell us. She gets extremely angry if we try to push the issue, at one point accusing my husband of "stealing" papers and threatening to call the police. She lives alone, always has, and walks 1/2 mile to the store. We're in the south, and the heat is brutal, yet she refuses to let us take her, or shop for her.
Now just recently, we found out second hand that she has someone living with her. We have no idea who, my husband is going over there later today to find out. She did this before and the person stole from her. I'm really at my wit's end.
I should also mention that we do have a durable Power of Attorney, we somehow convinced her to sign it, but I don't think she really knows what it was. How do you use such a thing? Take it to the bank and ask to see her accounts? Like I said, I'm lost. We need to arrange care for her, but don't know what she can afford. I'm afraid if we try and force the issue she'll end up hating us and make the situation even worse.
What I'd really like to see is a trained person staying with her in her home. It's only a small mobile home, but she's been there 25 years and isn't going to want to leave. Otherwise maybe some kind of assisted living facility? I just don't know. Everything seems so expensive, and I don't think she has a lot of money.
Right now her short term memory is almost completely gone, but she talks about being in Italy 70 years ago like it was yesterday. She can't stay by herself much longer. Even now, I don't think she's eating or drinking enough, and she keeps her home so hot that even her cat won't stay in it with her. (And what do I do about the cat? The poor thing's blind...) I also have no idea about her medications, whether she takes them as she should or not.
She has a doctor's appointment next week, and we're going to try and get the doctor to talk to her about care arrangements, maybe make her see reason.
Anyway, I'm sorry this went on so long, I just seemed to keep typing. :-) I'd really appreciate any sort of advice with this. How do you help someone who's completely unwilling?
Thanks for letting me vent, Robyn
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 08 Aug 2007 21:34 GMT Robyn, first stop must be a lawyer to find out what comes next so you are prepared. I'd also have a discussion with the doctor about her situation to get his help. You may have to have her declared incompetent, but she's already been diagnosed with dementia, she's having trouble with daily life, and she's proven vunerable to people who would exploit her, so its not like it will be an uphill battle.
The choices may none of them be pretty, but her safety must come first. When you visit the lawyer and start to use the power of attorney to figure out her financial situation, you can also consult him about medicaid/medicare in your state.
Then start shopping around for assisted living facilities that will take medicaid recipients. She will not be well enough to stay in the trailer, even with help, much longer. Alzheimer's is not just a disease of memory - she will lose her muscular coordination, control of her bladder and bowels, ability to talk etc. etc. and need heavier care than is practical in a trailer. She will also need 24/7 support and supervision.
Mary G.
Robyn - 08 Aug 2007 22:13 GMT > Robyn, first stop must be a lawyer to find out what comes next so you > are prepared. I'd also have a discussion with the doctor about her [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mary G. Thanks so much for your reply, Mary. It seems strange to laugh about it, but when I read where you said she'd lose the ability to talk, I thought to myself, "Thank Goodness!" All she does now is talk, constantly and repetitively, even while eating. How she doesn't choke I'll never know. :-)
Anyway, no lawyers. I've been ripped off by more than a couple and don't trust them. (Sad story on request.) But I know her doctor will work with us. I guess I'm just looking for some magic words to say to get her to see reason, but of course there aren't any.
Thanks, Robyn
Dennis P. Harris - 10 Aug 2007 08:18 GMT > Anyway, no lawyers. I've been ripped off by more than a couple and don't > trust them. (Sad story on request.) sorry, but this is the one time when you need one, to make sure tha dealing with her assets complies with Medicaid rules so they will pay for her care once her funds are exhausted. believe me, you really do need one; if she has low income, you may be able to find legal advice at little or no cost.
J J - 08 Aug 2007 21:36 GMT How do you help someone who's completely unwilling?
I have been asking that question for 4 years now. It is very difficult. you want might want to get a doc to sign papers stating that your aunt is not mentally capable of taking care of her finances. this way if you go to the bank ect they have proof that she is not able to take care of her bills ect. mom already had me on her checking account and I was able to access without any problem but if I should have to sell her house I have to have two doctors stating she cannot make any more decisions for herself. hope that helps a little. JJ
Robyn - 08 Aug 2007 22:17 GMT > How do you help someone who's completely unwilling? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > hope that helps a little. > JJ Thanks JJ, that seems like a good way to start. We see the doctor next week, so we'll see how that goes.
Robyn :-)
Evelyn Ruut - 08 Aug 2007 22:54 GMT >> How do you help someone who's completely unwilling? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Robyn :-) Robyn, all lawyers are not alike. Sorry you got involved with a bad one, but I have to tell you that our experience was just the opposite. The guy we chose was a local judge as well as an elder law specialist. He was not only a lovely person, but honest and knowledgeable. I have NO idea how we'd have managed without his help, and without all the proper paperwork in place.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 08 Aug 2007 23:46 GMT Robin, I have to agree with Evelyn.
If you are in the US, the rules on powers of attorney and how they can be invoked and used varies greatly from state to state. In many places, there are separate documents for financial and personal care decisions. Layer on top of that, your very convoluted health insurance and medicaid/medicare system not only varies from state to state, but is mined with potholes that can make all kinds of problems. It pays to get expert advice and guidance - are you sure the document you have in hand covers everything you will need to do?
On the prior issue of where her disease will take her, I have pasted the stages of AD below for your reference. My guess is she's in Stage 5 or so.
M.
Stages of Alzheimers
In 1982 Dr. Barry Reisberg published what was to become the best and most widely accepted description of the stages of Alzheimer's disease. Even today, years later, when experts refer to a person being in stage 5 or stage 6, they are referring to Dr. Reisberg's scale of seven stages.
Adapted from Reisberg, B., Ferris, S.H., Leon, J.J. & Crook, T. The global deterioration scale for the assessment of primary degenerative dementia. American Journal of Psychiatry, 1982
Level 1
No cognitive decline - (or Normal Adult). No subjective complaints of memory deficit. No memory deficit evident on clinical interviews.
Level 2 Very mild cognitive decline (forgetfulness or normal older adult). Subjective complaints of memory deficit, most frequently in the following area: (a) forgetting where one has placed familiar objects; (b) forgetting names on formerly knew well. No objective evidence of memory deficit on clinical interview. No objective deficits in employment or social situations. Appropriate concern regarding symptoms.
Level 3 Mild cognitive decline (early confusional or Early AD). Earliest clear- cut deficits. Manifestations in more than one of the following areas: (a) patient may have gotten lost when traveling to an unfamiliar location; (b) co-workers become aware of patient's relatively low performance; (c) word and name finding deficit becomes evident to intimates; (d) patient may read a passage of a book and retain relatively little material; (e) patient may demonstrate decreased facility in remembering names upon introduction to new people; (f) patient may have lost or misplaced an object of value; (g) concentration deficit may be evident on clinical testing. Objective evidence of memory deficit obtained only with an intensive interview. Denial begins to become manifest in patient. Mild to moderate anxiety accompanies symptoms. Deficits noticed in demanding employment situations.
Level 4 Moderate cognitive decline (Late Confusional or Mild AD). Clear-cut deficit on careful clinical interview. Deficit manifest in following areas: (a) decreased knowledge of current and recent events; (b) may exhibit some deficit in memory of one's personal history; (c) concentration deficit elicited on serial subtractions; (d) decreased ability to travel, handle finances, etc.
Frequently no deficit in the following areas: (a) orientation to time and person; (b) recognition of familiar persons and faces; (c) ability to travel to familiar locations. Inability to perform complex tasks. Denial is dominant defense mechanism. Flattening of affect and withdrawl from challenging situations occur.
Level 5 Moderately severe cognitive decline (Early Dementia or moderate AD). Patient can no longer survive without some assistance. Patient is unable during interview to recall a major relevant aspect of their current lives, e.g., an address or telephone number of many years, the names of close family members (such as grandchildren), the name of the high school or college from which they graduated. Frequently some disorientation to time (date, day of week, season, etc.) or to place. An educated person may have difficulty counting back from 40 by 4s or from 20 by 2s. Persons at this stage retain knowledge of many major facts regarding themselves and others. They invariably know their own names and generally know their spouse's and children's names. They require no assistance with toileting and eating, but may have some difficulty choosing the proper clothing to wear.
Level 6 Severe cognitive decline (Middle Dementia or Moderately Severe AD). May occasionally forget the name of the spouse upon whom they are entirely dependent for survival. Will be largely unaware of all recent events and experiences in their lives. Retain some knowledge of their past lives but this is very sketchy. Generally unaware of their surroundings, the year, the season, etc. May have difficulty counting from 10, both backward and sometimes forward. Will require some assistance with activities of daily living, e.g., may become incontinent, will require travel assistance but occasionally will display ability to orient in familiar locations. Diurnal rhythm frequently disturbed. Almost always recall their own name. Frequently continue to be able to distinguish familiar from unfamiliar persons in their environment. Personality and emotional changes occur. These are quite variable and include (a) delusional behavior, e.g., patients may accuse their spouse of being an impostor, may talk to imaginary figures in the environment, or to their own reflection in the mirror; (b) obsessive symptoms, e.g., person may continually repeat simple cleaning activities; (c) anxiety symptoms, agitation, and even previously nonexistent violent behavior may occur; (d) cognitive abulla, i.e., loss of willpower because an individual cannot carry a thought long enough to determine a purposeful course of action.
6a - Requires Assistance dressing 6b - Requires Assistance bathing properly 6c - Requires Assistance with mechanics of toileting 6d - Urinary incontinence 6e - Fecal incontinence
Level 7 Very severe cognitive decline (Late Dementia or Severe AD). All verbal abilities are lost. Frequently there is no speech at all - only grunting. Incontinent of urine, requires assistance toileting and feeding. Lose basic psychomotor skills, e.g., ability to walk, sitting and head control. The brain appears to no longer be able to tell the body what to do. Generalized and cortical neurologic signs and symptoms are frequently present.
7a - Speech ability limited to about a half-dozen intelligible words 7b - Intelligible vocabulary limited to a single word 7c - Ambulatory ability lost 7d - Ability to sit up lost 7e - Ability to smile lost 7f - Ability to hold up head lost
Robyn - 09 Aug 2007 16:44 GMT > Robin, I have to agree with Evelyn. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Stages of Alzheimers (snipped extremely informative and helpful stages)
Thank you so much for posting that, it was the first time I'd seen it. Yes, she's definitely stage 5, maybe a little 6 at times, as she sometimes comes up with the strangest accusations. (She thinks the phone company is out to get her.)
I'm going to print the stages out so I have them for reference. The info should help in talking to her doctor, as well.
As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got the forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed the signing (whom I trust) said all was in order. I can only hope that that takes care of it. :-)
Thanks, Robyn
Tumbleweed - 09 Aug 2007 20:22 GMT > As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got the > forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed the > signing (whom I trust) said all was in order. I can only hope that that > takes care of it. :-) so does that mean i could download some forms off the net, get someone to witness me signing them, and then I would have POA over you?
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
June - 09 Aug 2007 21:01 GMT >> As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got the >> forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so does that mean i could download some forms off the net, get someone to > witness me signing them, and then I would have POA over you? Only if SHE signs them in front of notary. Did this for my mother and had an Eldercare attorney look at them a few months later(When I could finally get an appointment) and he said my POA was completely legal......June
Tumbleweed - 10 Aug 2007 23:04 GMT >>> As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got >>> the forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > finally get an appointment) and he said my POA was completely > legal......June Indeed, thats a different kettle of fish to just signing them yourself, which is what I read into what RObyn wrote , but perhaps didnt mean, or i misunderstood?
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Robyn - 09 Aug 2007 21:05 GMT >> As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got the >> forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so does that mean i could download some forms off the net, get someone to > witness me signing them, and then I would have POA over you? No, of course not. I'm sorry if I was unclear... I thought it went without saying that my great aunt signed the form, as well as my husband. It was witnessed by two others and notarized. And as for getting the forms online, what difference does it make, it's all the same form. I get my tax forms online, too. It's no less legitimate than getting them at a library, law office, or anywhere else. Why waste gas?
Robyn
Dennis P. Harris - 10 Aug 2007 08:24 GMT > And as for getting the forms > online, what difference does it make, it's all the same form. NO, THEY ARE NOT.
Tumbleweed - 10 Aug 2007 23:07 GMT >>> As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got >>> the forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No, of course not. I'm sorry if I was unclear... I thought it went > without saying that my great aunt signed the form, nothing goes without saying here :-)
>as well as my husband. It was witnessed by two others and notarized. And as >for getting the forms online, what difference does it make, it's all the >same form. No difference, its just that I read you as saying that you just obtained some forms and then signed them yourself and that was it :-)
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Robyn - 11 Aug 2007 00:04 GMT >>> so does that mean i could download some forms off the net, get someone >>> to witness me signing them, and then I would have POA over you? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No difference, its just that I read you as saying that you just obtained > some forms and then signed them yourself and that was it :-) I bet there's a lot of thieves in the world that wished it worked that way. :-) It turns out we did need to also get a courthouse seal, but that's as easy as a trip downtown on Monday.
Robyn
Dennis P. Harris - 10 Aug 2007 08:23 GMT > As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got the > forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed the > signing (whom I trust) said all was in order. I can only hope that that > takes care of it. :-) well, there are several types of power of attorney. was it a power of attorney for business decisions? does it also give you the right to make health care decisions for her? in most states, they are separate types of documents, BUT THIS IS WHY YOU NEED A LAWYER EXPERIENCE IN YOUR STATE'S ELDER LAW.
please, we are trying to save you a lot of grief. don't let you experience with one attorney keep you from seeking the professional advice you will need in order to navigate the idiotic legal maze this country has created for those who are trying to get incompetent relatives into care.
august - 11 Aug 2007 03:17 GMT > As for the Power of Attorney, it's durable, and for my state. I got the > forms from a reputable online source, and the Notary that witnessed the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks, > Robyn As you know each state has slightly different forms of POA. I also got our medical power of attorney off the web, had it signed, witnessed and notarized. We took the MIL with us to the notary in the car. Fortunately my MIL knows that she really needs care and was never averse to signing the POA (she has vascular dementia). We also had a full POA and a Living Will drawn up by an attorney and keep that in the safe deposit box. I keep the medical POA on the computer and just run off a signed copy whenever we visit a new medical professional, which fortunately is not that often. AW
Robyn - 09 Aug 2007 00:26 GMT > Robyn, all lawyers are not alike. Sorry you got involved with a bad one, > but I have to tell you that our experience was just the opposite. The > guy we chose was a local judge as well as an elder law specialist. He > was not only a lovely person, but honest and knowledgeable. I have NO > idea how we'd have managed without his help, and without all the proper > paperwork in place. Evelyn, I understand what you're saying, but it wasn't just one bad one, it was four. In a nutshell, the guy in charge of my Dad's estate cheated me out of my inheritance. The guy I hired to get him out of there strung me along until he found out there wasn't enough money to make it worthwhile, then cut me loose. The second one I hired took a $5,000 retainer, did nothing for 6 months, and vanished with my money. In between all this, yet another bloodsucker cheated me out of a piece of property I had. So, no lawyers. I'd rather screw up and lose my own money than have it stolen.
Robyn
Evelyn Ruut - 09 Aug 2007 01:19 GMT >> Robyn, all lawyers are not alike. Sorry you got involved with a bad >> one, but I have to tell you that our experience was just the opposite. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Robyn Robyn,
That is indeed a sad story.
Anyway for this, if it costs you more than $1,000 I would be surprised.
If you do decide to take a chance, call the local office of the aging or your local alzheimers society, and see if they have someone reputable that you could trust.
All you are inquiring about is the paperwork. In any case if you try to have her declared incompetent, which you might just have to do, I think you will need an attorney.
This goes on all the time, and there are people who are getting some form of dementia or other every day. Our society has certain ways of dealing with it, and unfortunately it may require some legal help.
Again, I have never yet had a bad legal experience and I am almost 66. I have no idea why that is, but it is the honest truth.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn
Adelle - 09 Aug 2007 01:53 GMT >> Robyn, all lawyers are not alike. Sorry you got involved with a bad >> one, but I have to tell you that our experience was just the opposite. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Robyn Unscrupulous people see the pattern of you being cheated and determine you are an easy mark. That's how people get victimized over and over. I'm sorry it happened to you.
OK - You are willing to 'screw up and lose my own money.' Are you willing to be held criminally and civilly liable for your mistakes, perhaps being charged with breach of fiduciary duty, elder abuse, fraud or malfeasance. Are you willing to risk that your great aunt will get inadequate care because the paperwork you needed to get done wasn't done right, so she gets put in the first available nursing home bed (and they are available because no one wants their family members in that kind of home)? Are you willing to risk other family members coming after you because they feel it is their place to second guess and make your life miserable?
Its never the professionals who get into trouble with this. The atty's and acct's who 'mess up' (purposefully or not) know how to cover their a.ses. It's the lay people who wind up losing their homes, livelihoods and freedom because of honest mistakes.
This kind of law - elder law - is a complete minefield because it involves Federal laws (entitlements like Medicare and HIPPA issues) and state laws (administration of Medicare/Medicaid, agency law, family law, estate law, health care law, and contract law). It crosses so many fields that you really have to know all your stuff.
The best way to get a decent elder affairs lawyer is to check with the reference librarian of your local library about agencies which help elders plan their estates. The attorneys who list their names with these agencies do it because they see the need and are compelled to help. They often do this at a reduced fee. The one who worked with my MIL got her out of a huge jam.
Some things can be handled on one's own, if you do enough research and work hard enough, like real estate closings, your own simple will, uncontested custody issues... But this is too big a minefield to tip toe through without a map or guide.
Adelle A Family Law Atty in her life before having kids.
Evelyn Ruut - 09 Aug 2007 02:36 GMT >>> Robyn, all lawyers are not alike. Sorry you got involved with a bad >>> one, but I have to tell you that our experience was just the opposite. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Adelle > A Family Law Atty in her life before having kids. Robyn, Adelle knows what she is talking about, and she has also been through this illness with a loved one, as all of us here have. I do hope you consider the ramifications.
Consider this......I have an acquaintance whose mother in law developed alzheimers disease, but they didn't want to go through the various legal processes involved. It is turning into a nightmare for them. They were using her money without proper kind of accounting for it, or the proper paperwork in place. You can guess the rest.
Now they are afraid to try and place her in a care facility, because they weren't covered or prepared, and the mother in law is getting .... well pretty bad now, and really NEEDS to be in a skilled facility. My friend has little kids, and a mother in law who is going more and more seriously impaired by the day. It is a real mess. They have no idea what to do now. Now they say they are finally going to seek legal help but I think it is already awfully late in the game.
The worst part of this is that I told them (exactly what I told you), a couple of years ago, before it got this bad. They even denied that she had alzheimers disease at all and refused to do anything I suggested. People can sometimes be their own worst enemy. I feel especially bad about this, because she knew what I went through with my own mother in law, but her husband wouldn't listen or do the right thing.
There is a legal newsgroup, a moderated one, where you might ask some questions. It is; misc.legal.moderated
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn
Robyn - 09 Aug 2007 16:27 GMT > Unscrupulous people see the pattern of you being cheated and determine you > are an easy mark. That's how people get victimized over and over. I'm [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Adelle > A Family Law Atty in her life before having kids. Ahh, as soon as I read the scary legalese of your first paragraph I said to myself, "Ah, yes, there's one." I'd really like to know how I'm an "easy mark" just for giving an attorney a retainer? That's the way things are done, correct? Yet she took off for parts unknown instead of doing what she was contracted to do. I had her disbarred for it, BTW. I'm sorry but, Easy Mark, my foot! I did nothing to bring this stuff on and followed all the right steps to fight it.
Oh, and I almost forgot the law firm that talked my husband into filing bankruptcy some years back. They flat out lied to us about the effect it would have on my credit, and the length of time it would stay on his record. It was the worst financial mistake we ever made. Again, we trusted a lawyer.
I do recognize that there are probably some honest ones out there. But without a way to find them, the odds are too great of picking another bloodsucker. Even if I was willing, I can't afford it, the others got most of my money.
Anyway, this group's supposed to be about Alzheimer's, not Robyn's Lawyer Phobia. :-) Although, I'll admit it feels good to vent about it. I've got enough pent up anger to power a small town, I think. I can't even watch law shows on TV, I get so angry I can't enjoy them.
Oh, and I also want to add that although I don't know about her financial situation, I don't think she has a lot, to where the courts would get involved. I'm pretty good with paperwork, and excellent with numbers, so I think I can manage that part, if she would only cooperate. And there are no other family members, so no trouble there. I wish there was, because I don't want this.
Thank you for your advice, Robyn
Dennis P. Harris - 10 Aug 2007 08:35 GMT > Anyway, this group's supposed to be about Alzheimer's, not Robyn's Lawyer > Phobia. :-) Although, I'll admit it feels good to vent about it. I've got > enough pent up anger to power a small town, I think. I can't even watch law > shows on TV, I get so angry I can't enjoy them. well, you need to GET OVER IT because YOU WILL NEED A LAWYER. i don't like them either, but i use one when i have to, because when i haven't, it cost me more money than if i had.
believe me, none of us like them BUT WE HAVE ALL BEEN THROUGH THIS and we know that one is needed, sooner rather than later. just make sure that you pick one recommended by your AZ association, then check references with other clients; any attorney worth his salt should be happy to give you references.
we are here to help, and nothing is more annoying than someone who asks for advice, and when it is given, insists on giving reason after reason why the advice won't work when we all know it will.
if you insist on continuing this "no lawyers" "phobia", i feel sorry for your loved one, and for you. i also will not bother responding to posts from someone who irrationally refuses to give any credence to the sincere advice offered here, based on experience and given in the hope that you won't make that same mistakes that others have.
you asked for advice, you got it. if you don't like it, that's your problem.
Adelle - 12 Aug 2007 17:27 GMT >> Unscrupulous people see the pattern of you being cheated and determine >> you are an easy mark. That's how people get victimized over and over. I'm [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > but, Easy Mark, my foot! I did nothing to bring this stuff on and followed > all the right steps to fight it. Good for you.
But I've seen it in my mom, who was cheated by several contractors and other service providers. Some she hinted at 'the ordeals she's been through'. Others she told flat out that she had been cheated. And well, if you have been cheated once, chances are you will fall for stuff again.
> Oh, and I almost forgot the law firm that talked my husband into filing > bankruptcy some years back. They flat out lied to us about the effect it > would have on my credit, and the length of time it would stay on his > record. It was the worst financial mistake we ever made. Again, we trusted > a lawyer. Again, sorry you wound up with someone less than competent and above board.
Like doctors, atty's are service providers. And like in every profession, you have competent and incompetent; people who graduated near the top of the class, and people who graduated at the bottom. And often, its the people who had the B and C averages in law school who make the best 'in the trenches' atty's. Theoretically, a professional should give you accurate information. But one needs to research the basics about the options one chooses, just like being an informed patient. People make mistakes. People cover for their lack of knowledge with bravado so you will trust them. They want you to do business with them, just like other sales people. They need to bring clients in; they need to meet their billable hours for the month, just as a sales clerk needs to fulfill their sales quota for the month.
My mom's first oncologist made a huge mistake, misdiagnosing the kind of cancer she had. ANd even though my mom heard the doctor refer to the kind of cancer differently than the pathologists' reportw(hich mom personally read), she didn't confront the doctor or push for different care. The doctor is only lucky we can't sue, because the actual kind of cancer is so aggressive that the difference in treatment wouldn't have made a bit of difference for my mom's survival.
It happens to many of us.
> I do recognize that there are probably some honest ones out there. But > without a way to find them, the odds are too great of picking another > bloodsucker. Even if I was willing, I can't afford it, the others got most > of my money. If you Aunt is close to indigent already, it probably won't matter whether you have an atty. Please do your best to avoid paying for anything for her care from your own pocket and then reimburse yourself. It opens the door for medicaid to question intermingling of assests. So even if you keep good records and are clearly correct, it will create hassle for you and delays for your aunt. Clearly something you neither need nor want.
> Anyway, this group's supposed to be about Alzheimer's, not Robyn's > Lawyer Phobia. :-) Although, I'll admit it feels good to vent about it. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And there are no other family members, so no trouble there. I wish there > was, because I don't want this. She cannot cooperate. Cooperation requires being able to process information. She cannot do that anymore.
Some people with dementia change personalities. But many become more of what they were. My Grandfather and his sister were both 'un-trusting' and curt people, (suppose being Holocaust refugees will contribute to that). As their dementia increased, they became more and more paranoid and nasty. My FIL was a milquetoast before, and as long as his antipsychotics were given on schedule, he was even milder after (without the antipsychotics he became violent if touched, which he interpreted as a threat).
If you have dealt with a toddler having a major tantrum, you get the idea of how to deal with these paranoid and angry rants. The anger and lashing out come from feeling out of control. There is no way for them to have control in that situation, because their nervous system doesn't have the capacity for them to have control. In toddlers, things are in disarray because the neural connections are in the process of forming. In dementia patients, the neural connections are in the process of dissolution.
All you can do is move forward in whatever way is in their best interest. One technique I liked was to 'channel' Mr. Rogers. I would just imagine what Mr. Rogers would say and do in that moment. Worked for me both with my kids and the adults with dementia in out family (3. Two of my relatives, one of my husbands).
Wishing you much luck and patience on this journey.
Adelle
stopalz@gmail.com - 13 Aug 2007 19:46 GMT > > How do you help someone who's completely unwilling? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Robyn :-) Well, I think that i can help you a little, but isnt easy:
The Chronic Progressive Dementization, (CPD), the scientific name of that vulgarly called alzheimer, is a quite different question than depression, different types of psychosis and obviously of sometimes surprising behaviors of the normal aging, and in the long run much more serious.
Although the final phase of cerebral disintegration is similar, there are two types of processes: the one that occurs in young adults or greater adults, and another different one that it happens in very greater adults, around 80 years or more. In these, at the final phase the problem it is "simply" the loss of the vital motivation, the exhaustion of desire to continue living. Abandonment of dreams, as Miguel de Unamuno would say on the cession of such dreams that Don Quixote in favor of Sancho did, and then, obviously, dying.
Persons with risk for a CPD (alzheimer) are those that generally have an introverted personality, few and restricted social relations, with and isolation tendency, coping deficit for difficulties and losses, tendency to depend on others, to had constructed their personal identity in the shade of another one (the woman of the doctor, the husband of...) or some other equivalent transference, tendency to be obstinate to proper painful events or of the others?s life, which is diagnosed in general like depression.
THEN, IN ANY WAY IT TOUCHES TO ANYONE.
There is nothing of chance?s dependance, neither suddenly nor no magician in it. Logically with advance into years the probability that these people suffer a painful loss increases, obviously, like everybody. With its coping deficit the risk increases enormously when they have a painful loss, for example her husband who gave or lent the personal identity, or a son or daughter who gave sense to their life, of their work that justified the existence to him, of their corporal and mental capacity to which he had bet or concentrated, and when not counting on a familiar network and a social network that stopped its fall after the duel impossible to elaborate and to go on, the person collapses.
It is the beginning of the aim. It can have 40 years old (the younger case than we have was a woman of 38 years), or 80 yo. It does not related to aging, but only that when they advance the years is more probable that we suffer painful losses. Until this moment its brain is totally normal, does not show absolutely anything abnormal and is totally useless to want to see something in images or less even in electroencephalograms, that it is something so coarse and inadequate as a toad arrives of a luxurious piano of tail. The landslide of the person, its "delivery" as much in the dictionary of the Real Spanish Academy like in the original dictionaries of all the languages, is expressed in the idea to wish to die, in the fixation of the attention in its own one and wished death. Then the abnormal thing begins, the unnatural thing, the destructive thing, because in fact we are programmed biologically, ancestrally, for all the opposite, as it is to explore, to fight, to defend to us, to hunt (in the literal sense and the symbolic sense), to attack, to ask to us, to inquire to us, and our attention concentrated in each objective part of a basic alert status that we never lose, except for when we slept very well. We are not programmed to give to us tamely, as it is not it in any animal.
How takes place then the cerebral damage that leads to the death?
To understand this we need to explain some very basic things, although surprising little known. In the first place that we have nine senses: vision, hearing, equilibrium, tact, space perception/orientation, taste, sense of smell, sense of strange it (or familiarity sense) and of the corporal perception. All these senses, and perhaps others more, are active in the basic alert status and they have two components: an automatic one of immediate reaction (one falls in love a light and blinking, it smells sulphydric vapors, the substance that is put to the gas tubes to detect a loss immediately, and I separate, etc.), and another component of recognition, in which the stimuli are sent to the brain and there it is collated if that information has been loaded. They are the sensorial recognition systems we have.
Then, EVERYTHING WHAT WE DO, EVERYTHING WHAT WE THOUGHT, BY MORE BANAL OR INSIGNIFICANT THAN IS, IS RECORDED IN THE BRAIN IN FORM OF NEURONAL NETWORK IN WHICH PARTICIPATE NEURONS OF THIS SENSORIAL RECOGNITION ?S SYSTEMS OF THE NINE CHANNELS, INEXORABLY.
And those networks that are armed in our brain also were reinforced when we return to make the same act or the same thought. But in addition BECAUSE IN FACT ALL IS CONCECTED WITH ALL, WHICH WE ARE GOING TO DO WAS CONNECTED IN MORE OR LESS STRAIGHT FORWARD FORM WITH WHICH ALREADY WE HAVE DONE AND LOADED LIKE NEURONAL NETWORKS IN OUR BRAIN.
Some of those connections have a great importance in the every day actions and others very remotely: although the door seems to be very heavy, already we know that the force that we must make to open it isn't so high. Or for example the natural attraction by rhythm that are multiple or sub multiple of the heart rate (that we listened for the first time in our mother's uterus), seems like related with this indeed. That is to say, to live means to be stimulating everything somehow what we have done, lived and thought. It seems exhausting, but it is a fascinating question.
However, when a person fix attention to death, that is something abstract that does not rquiered any motor or cognitive reply, AND RESORTING TO THE NATURAL AND AVAILABLE MECHANISM DISPOSED IN ALL PERSONS THEY TO BLOCK THE RECEPTION OF OTHER STIMULI WHEN WE CONCENTRATED THE ATTENTION IN SOMETHING INTENSIVELY ATTRRACTED, THESE PEOPLE HAPPEN TO BLOCK, at the outset in oscillating form, with variations throughout a day or of days, THE SENSORIAL STIMULI OF THE DIFFERENT CHANNELS. It is a biological basic mechanism since we must be concentrated in the tiger that attacks to us and we cannot disperse with the colored birds that are jumping back: it's a survival principle. Who know more the utility of this principle is the pickpockets of the human agglomerates: one of them produces a smaller but clear aggression on the victim. In reaction the victim is put in guard and concentrates its attention on the aggressor, while his companion removes the wallet or cuts the portfolio's strap, because we have blocked the tact and the corporal perception when putting to us in guard in front of the aggressor and concentrating the attention in him.
The displacement of the attention towards different objectives is a normal and a routinely task, but in the people who enter CPD process they are persistently blocking the reception of stimuli by the different sensorial channels and the consequent arrived to the brain, so that the neurons of the sensorial recognition systems that comprise of the sensorial networks doesn't receive stimuli, with which in the long run lose the synaptic connections and the networks are disarmed. Something equivalent to the atrophy of a muscle we never use. This avoid progressively all the recognition tasks. No longer they recognize, no longer have capacity of recovery of recent events (weak neuronal networks, with low sensorial stimulation), and however still can recover events of the past. But not anyone, but THOSE IN WHICH THE LIVED EVENTS (SENSORIAL NETWORKS ARMED IN THE PAST) WERE POSSIBLE WITH A GREAT STIMULATION (EMOTIONAL), PROLONGED REINFORCED AND CONNECTED WITH MULTIPLE OTHER SENSORIAL NETWORKS, LIKE THE DOOR OF OUR HOME AT OUR CHILDHOOD, by where we did not shelter, by where we shook to arrive all smeared, by where we arrived to eat, etc.
Thus faults of the systems of sensorial recognition were the more consistent biological indicators to detect that a person is in dementizaci?n of this type.
THE PROGRESSIVE DISINTEGRATION OF THE NEURONAL NETWORKS IN OUR BRAIN BY STIMULATION DEFICIT OF THE RECOGNITION SENSORIAL SYSTEMS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE DEMENTIZATION PROCESS, AND LEADS TO THE DEATH BECAUSE AN AUTOMATIC ESSENTIAL SYSTEM HAS CONNECTIONS WITH SENSORIAL NETWORKS YOU, THAT WHEN ALSO THEY GET TO BE AFFECTED, CAUSES THE DEATH.
Then isn't properly a disease ("signs and symptoms that responds to a well-known cause"), isn't genetic, it doesn't have relation with aging (confusion comes from that to greater age is the probability of suffering painful losses, that are a very frequent trigger one, since we have already said), does not begin with any damage in the brain but that concludes in the long run in this, isn't a problem of the memory but of the attention, and before this one of the desire, and before this one of the satisfaction search, and before this one of the biological and psychological impulsions arranged by the will, and even before the basal state of alert that characterizes to us. One of the last forms of the expression of the process is the problem with the memory, but in fact the difficulty to recover events is the last link of a very long chain, and to have concentrated in it and not in the attention's deficit of can be the reason of the delayed to understand the process, we think.
And finally, isn't irreversible, since it is possible and it gives clear and forceful result, to elevate to those people the self-esteem and the attention to him, and to permute the abstract idea to him of death wished by the one of real life that surrounds it, the shade by the light that surrounds us to all to little that we lend a little attention, taken care of and love, and inserting it in a new extolling routine for the dairy life. It is not easy, is an abyss of difference with giving a tablet, but it is tremendously positive as much for the affected ones as for which we worked with the protocols derived from the psycho-social neuro sensorial disintegrative theory of the chronic progressive dementization (alzheimer).
Prof.Lic.Luis Mar?a S?nchez, Neurobiologist, Director, Alzheimer?s Project Argentina TE 0054 3442 431442 stopalz@gmail.com www.stopalz.org
august - 09 Aug 2007 03:56 GMT > Hi, > This is my first post here, and I'm lost. :-) My 88 year old great aunt [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Thanks for letting me vent, > Robyn The legal system in some rural counties in the South can be terrible. If you find that you need a lawyer - since you really need a lawyer that specializes in elder care (and not general law) forget about all the local attorneys and go to Atlanta or Nashville or Birmingham or where ever and hire an elder care expert and leave the local attorneys to their thievery. Unless your aunt has property worth stealing the local attorneys probably are not interested in her case anyways.
Decide what level of care you want to be responsible for. If you are her sole relative and she has no one else you will probably have to make many unpleasant choices before your aunt passes, so get used to the idea of doing things that will be difficult.
I have a great aunt about 90 who until recently was living alone on a fairly large farm in the rural South. Things are different in the South. The local Dr might be your best initial help - even before the lawyer. Hipaa laws are probably not as strictly enforced and your power of attorney rights (as a relative) would probably be unquestioned by your aunt's Dr. He already knows she has dementia and is probably waiting for someone to step forward to take over her care. I'd make a private appointment, without the aunt, with her Dr and ask for his advice and help about how things work in your area for getting her into assisted living. Idealy I would make your appt. before her next appt. next week. Get him on board and then start working through things to help get your aunt into assisted living. This process might take a while so do not expect quick miracles. The initial thing is to not get her so angry that she will not talk to you. Suspicion can be extreme in some people with dementia.
Buy a copy of The 36 Hour Day and read it and absorb the various issues you will now be dealing with.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446610410/bookstorenow57-20
good luck - you are going to need it, along with a lot of patience. AW
Robyn - 09 Aug 2007 15:52 GMT > The legal system in some rural counties in the South can be terrible. If > you find that you need a lawyer - since you really need a lawyer that [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > good luck - you are going to need it, along with a lot of patience. AW Thanks so much for the advice, I'm taking everything I read here to heart. :-) I should have been clearer about where we were, though. When I said the "south", I didn't mean the "South," as in the land of good whisky, BBQ, and Vidalia onions. I meant climatologically. I live in southern Florida, between Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. :-)
Yes, you were right about the Dr. She was delighted to see family members and will cooperate fully. We have already asked for an extended conference next week when she goes for her visit. Unfortunately, my husband took her for blood work yesterday. He took off work early, drove her all the way down and waited, only to have her announce to the nurse that she was "dizzy" and didn't want the blood drawn. They wouldn't do it, of course, and now the whole trip was wasted.
She's already said she doesn't want to go to the doctor next week. I'm hoping we can convince her. You're also right about the suspicion. Trouble is, she's been like that as long as I've known her, always very... sly and secretive, I guess. She's always believed that everybody is deeply interested in her business and money. Now it's only getting worse. But hopefully the doctor will help show us where to start. And of course I'm doing as much research online as I can.
Thanks again, Robyn
sweetpickleNO@SPAMknology.net - 09 Aug 2007 18:33 GMT Robyn, you have very little chance to convince AD patients about anything they don't want to do. The only way to handle things like that is to surprise them. Don't tell them before hand anything that is planned or they will definitely be against it. If there is something they like to do, tell them that is what you are taking them to do; then take them where you want them to go. (We don't call that telling a lie. It is a "loving deception" because it makes it easier on everybody concerned.) Take her out for ice cream, or to visit a friend, or to just go for a ride to see something she would like to see---anything you can think of that would keep her interest long enough to get her in the car and take her where she needs to go. You don't ask a child's permission to take them somewhere, and she doesn't have the mind of a child. Her brain is sick and she really has no control over it. However you have to do it, get her to the doctor for her appointment. You are going to have to do many hard things to take care of her. Of course, she thinks she can take care of herself. All of us who have been there know you will have some sleepless nights, and lots of decisions to make which definitely won't be easy. Just do the best you can with the information you have at the time, and never, ever feel guilty about anything you have to do to protect her and make life as easy for her as you can. In the meanwhile your life wont be easy, but it will only get worse, sorry to say. You certainly have my sympathy for being caught in this situation. Just know that she really can't help it, and be as loving and patient as you can. Gwen
>> The legal system in some rural counties in the South can be terrible. If >> you find that you need a lawyer - since you really need a lawyer that [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > Thanks again, > Robyn Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 09 Aug 2007 21:03 GMT Its very true you can't often get permission or agreement from someone with Alzheimer's. They have no insight into their own problems. They can be living in absolute filth, wearing the same clothing for a month, never bathing, eating half rotten food, all the utilities turned off from not paying bills...and they will still insist they are fine. They can't look at the situation and analyse what's wrong, let alone think it has to do with their brains. Part of it is loss of ability to reason, partly loss of memory (if the solution flits through their heads, its gone before they can grab it) and partly denial - since it must be flat out terrifying to think your perceptions are no longer reliable. They can't see what is obvious to everyone else, so all the logic, reasoning, pleading, arguing in the world does nothing.
You size up the situation, and you start to make arrangements. You don't ASK her if she wants a drive to the store. You show up one day with the car and tell her you're going shopping and need some company, or come up with some other plausible lie (lets go for lunch and we'll get your groceries on the way back).
You also have to think sneaky, which is a hard mindset when you've always been straight up with the loved one. I've told the story here of how when my MIL was still at home, we'd try to get her out of the way every now and then so I could do a thorough search of the papers, and the general condition of the apartment (looking for unpaid bills, tax notices, driving notices, general cleanliness, food in the cupboards, state of the appliances, you name it). Hubby would take her out, I'd start the search. We had to do the same thing in assisted living since I would find all kinds of things in her room that weren't hers - some left by other residents, some mixed up by the laundry, and some hoarded by her (like dozens of cloth napkins from the diningroom). I'd find soiled underwear in boots and pockets, strange dentures and hearing aids rolled up in socks etc. etc. When I was done I'd take a big armful of stuff to the nursing station for them to figure out who the real owners were. I'm sure she would never, ever have let me "snoop", but it was necessary, so I did it (and I promise you, I would not have gone through her private stuff ever, ever, ever before she got sick).
The point is, with dementia, you are almost never going to get permission or agreement. You just do what you gotta do, and figure out a way to cajole, distract, reassure, divert, and generally smooth over, including fibs, half truths and distortions (the loving deception). The one thing you don't do is argue, confront or try to reason with them - you get no where, they get all stirred up, and they often remember they are mad at you long after they've forgotten WHY they are mad.
So....besides wanting to go through her place looking for papers if you can arrange for her to be out, get the "boarder" or whatever he or she is out as well for a while, and give the place a really good toss. You can also assess how she's managing the cleanliness issue as well as food at the same time. And then...start to do what needs doing without her permission. Make it face saving, make it a surprise, tell her she said yes already, whatever story she'll buy. Just don't ask her to say yes before you do it. You'll be waiting forever.
M
Robyn - 09 Aug 2007 21:57 GMT > Its very true you can't often get permission or agreement from someone > with Alzheimer's. They have no insight into their own problems. They [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > M Thank you, I printed your post for reference. I'm thinking I might have to do exactly as you stated, just get in there and go through things. She actually responds better to my husband than she does to me, and she sometimes will give him paperwork and things. She treats me as if I were about 10, always has. I'm just going to have to be more aggressive about it.
Robyn :-)
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 09 Aug 2007 23:36 GMT > Thank you, I printed your post for reference. I'm thinking I might have > to do exactly as you stated, just get in there and go through things. She > actually responds better to my husband than she does to me, and she > sometimes will give him paperwork and things. She treats me as if I were > about 10, always has. I'm just going to have to be more aggressive about it. Mary responds:
My hubbie was an only child, and we did the good cop/bad cop thing with my MIL. I was the one who made the arrangements and was matter of fact about them, and he was the one who patted her hand, gave her a hug and told her that he agreed that everything was unfair and rotten. It helped that she was somewhat intimidated by me (I'm manager of a department and I can turn on the mode). I felt a bit guilty being the human bulldozer, but it just worked better if mean old me did the dirty work, and hubby did the soothing (not that I didn't do my share of the fluffing and patting as well).
Think sideways and creatively and call in every resource or source of persuasion and influence you can come up with. Face saving stuff does work a treat - i.e. you make it seem like something is her idea, or she's doing you a favor by letting you do something for her (Mom, we don't want you down on your knees cleaning that oven, we'd like to hire a cleaner to help with that - will you let us get you that as a gift? It would really make John feel better knowing you won't hurt yourself.....or....Doll, why are you struggling with those tax forms, why not let Joe do that? You don't need all that stress - he does our taxes too, so its no big deal if he helps with yours.
If she has someone in her past she respects or trusts, get them in on the conspiracy to help keep her safe and well cared for. We sometimes "swarmed" her to get to places (i.e. get a pile of friendly relatives together and swoop down and grab her up, and cart her off before she knew what was happening. Call in every favor, get other family friends and relatives on side. If she has a pastor/rabbi, get them involved, get her faith community to help (you'd be amazed at what you can muster if you tap into the volunteers from many churches/synagogs). Call social services or any seniors agencies and see what they have available in terms of volunteers or services .
We did try to involve her in some things, like what to take to assisted living - but that was a mistake, because she couldn't make practical decisions (i.e. she'd tell you a loopy story about the silver sling backs and at the end of an hour, no impractical shoes were in the "toss" pile, and no sensible shoes were in the "keep" pile.
M.
august - 10 Aug 2007 04:19 GMT (snip)
I'd make a private
>> appointment, without the aunt, with her Dr and ask for his advice and >> help about how things work in your area for getting her into assisted [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Thanks again, > Robyn As others have mentioned you and your husband (and the Dr in some circumstances) need to decide in advance exactly what you need to accomplish then say whatever it takes to accomplish your goal. If she takes prescriptions meds, tell her the Dr needs to see her before he will refill her pills. Just figure out what works and surprise her with it. Help her get ready but try to avoid discussing anything that would give her a choice about going or not.
The good news is that the more demented she becomes then eventually the less suspicious she will be or as interested in money. Her brain capacity to worry about these type things will probably be gone. The you will be on into continence issues.
Tonight we told my MIL we were going out to eat. She said ok and got ready. We were not watching her and were not hurrying to get her in the car. She dived back into bed and refused to go. We blew it by our not paying closer attention. You will find that dealing with a person with dementia is one long series of very frustrating episodes and you will need to learn many coping strategies or she can drive you nuts. The only thing my wife and I ever argue over is dealing with getting the MIL to eat. We have learned that we have to step back and if she doesn't want to eat, she is in no danger of starving at this point in time. She can drive us both nuts then go take a nap and when she wakes up she is very pleasant and does not remember one bit of her previous spiteful acting out. This is par for the course with dementia and you have to learn to not let it upset you or take it personally. Her brain is broken. good luck with your aunt. AW
June - 10 Aug 2007 00:47 GMT > Hi, > This is my first post here, and I'm lost. :-) My 88 year old great aunt [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Thanks for letting me vent, > Robyn No one here has mentioned social services but I know that Florida has Adult Protective Services. As most here know that my mother resided in Florida (also between Miami and Ft. Lauderdale) during the winter months. My brother was in such terrible denial that I thought I was going to have to call social services to evaluate her and get his attention that something was really wrong. Luckily I didn't have to because even with dementia my mother sometimes has more sense than he does. She told him that she didn't want to be alone in Florida so he didn't take her down and leave here there. She is now in assisted living near me here in Indiana. I did a lot of research over the internet about what services were available in Florida. I even contacted the Florida BMV over the internet to get her license revoked back in 2001. You could check online at : http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/as/ and maybe there will be something helpful for you.....June
Dennis P. Harris - 10 Aug 2007 08:15 GMT > I should also mention that we do have a durable Power of Attorney, we > somehow convinced her to sign it, but I don't think she really knows what it > was. How do you use such a thing? Take it to the bank and ask to see her > accounts? Like I said, I'm lost. We need to arrange care for her, but don't > know what she can afford. I'm afraid if we try and force the issue she'll > end up hating us and make the situation even worse. You have to stop worrying about what she will think, since her ability to reason is already impaired. She's horribly afraid of everything, especially of losing control. Her short term memory is probably horrible, so that she can no longer think logically.
You need to find an attorney experienced in elder care law to help you. You should be able to get a referral from your local Alzheimer's Association office (see www.alz.org for locations), and they may have other resources available. If she gave you a power of attorney for health care issues, you need to give a copy to her doctor so that he can discuss her case.
What she can afford for care shouldn't matter, since when her funds run out, Medicaid will take over payment for her care in a facility. You need to start looking for a facility ASAP, though, since the good ones always seem to have waiting lists.
This stage, where they know they are impaired but are in denial about it (and truly have no insight into their impairment), is one of the worst to deal with, especially when dealing with folks who have always been independent or in charge.
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