Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / January 2007
Is this permanent?
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Steve - 01 Jan 2007 04:39 GMT My 81 year-old dad who was most recently diagnosed with "mild dementia" had a heart procedure done three weeks ago (angiplasty thing) and since then he's been basically "out of it." The first couple days were terrible - extreme agitation, no opening of the eyes, etc. then it got a little better for a couple of days but since then has gotten progressively worse (agitation, confusion, etc.). One doctor at first said it might be temporary "sundowning," but this obviously is not the case given the regressive nature of things and the time period. I understand the confusion one might experience from the trauma of a new setting, procedure, etc., but this appears really extreme (absolutely no recognition of family members, too restless to sleep, eyes almost always closed, etc.). Medical complications (stroke, etc.) have been ruled out. Any thoughts/advice please? Thanks!
Steve
Alan Meyer - 01 Jan 2007 07:19 GMT > My 81 year-old dad who was most recently diagnosed with "mild dementia" > had a heart procedure done three weeks ago (angiplasty thing) and since [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > always closed, etc.). Medical complications (stroke, etc.) have been > ruled out. Any thoughts/advice please? Thanks! I'm not a doctor and am not qualified to have any opinion about this, but I'm curious to know how medical complications have been ruled out.
If you do a Google search for "heart surgery" and "stroke" you'll find lots of hits indicating that stroke is a common complication of heart surgery. For example from http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1999/A/199900348.html
"Stroke is one of the most devastating complications of heart surgery," says Charles W. Hogue Jr., M.D., associate professor of anesthesiology and chief of cardio-thoracic anesthesia at Washington University and Barnes-Jewish Hospital in St. Louis, Mo.
Stroke incidence is as high as 5 percent in individuals undergoing bypass surgery, almost 9 percent in bypass patients age 75 or older and nearly 16 percent in patients with pre-existing disease involving blood flow in the brain or those undergoing heart valve surgery, according to Hogue. Bypass surgery involves rerouting blood flow around blocked blood vessels.
Alan
Baird Stafford - 01 Jan 2007 10:15 GMT > > My 81 year-old dad who was most recently diagnosed with "mild dementia" > > had a heart procedure done three weeks ago (angiplasty thing) and since [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > always closed, etc.). Medical complications (stroke, etc.) have been > > ruled out. Any thoughts/advice please? Thanks!
> I'm not a doctor and am not qualified to have any opinion about this, > but I'm curious to know how medical complications have been ruled > out.
> If you do a Google search for "heart surgery" and "stroke" you'll find > lots of hits indicating that stroke is a common complication of heart > surgery. For example from > http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1999/A/199900348.html
> "Stroke is one of the most devastating complications of heart > surgery," says Charles W. Hogue Jr., M.D., associate > professor of anesthesiology and chief of cardio-thoracic > anesthesia at Washington University and Barnes-Jewish > Hospital in St. Louis, Mo.
> Stroke incidence is as high as 5 percent in individuals > undergoing bypass surgery, almost 9 percent in bypass [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bypass surgery involves rerouting blood flow around blocked > blood vessels. Angioplasty involves none of the above: it's where they go in through the aortic artery in the groin and push a little balloon, with or without a stent, into a blocked vein/artery on the heart. I've had three or four of 'em. One is given a sedative rather than anaesthised, and can often watch the procedure on TV.
Blessed be, Baird
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Alan Meyer - 01 Jan 2007 17:51 GMT > ... > Angioplasty involves none of the above: it's where they go in through > the aortic artery in the groin and push a little balloon, with or > without a stent, into a blocked vein/artery on the heart. I've had > three or four of 'em. One is given a sedative rather than anaesthised, > and can often watch the procedure on TV. Ah yes. Good point.
Alan
ladylove77 - 01 Jan 2007 21:58 GMT I have not been given anesthesia when having heart caths, but was out completely from the shots I was given. I don't know if this would have the same effect as anesthesia on a person with dementia. Gwen
>> > My 81 year-old dad who was most recently diagnosed with "mild dementia" >> > had a heart procedure done three weeks ago (angiplasty thing) and since [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Blessed be, > Baird august - 01 Jan 2007 07:20 GMT > My 81 year-old dad who was most recently diagnosed with "mild dementia" > had a heart procedure done three weeks ago (angiplasty thing) and since [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Steve The answer is no telling at this point in time. Our LO with dementia has had major and minor surgery and always has major setbacks each time that last from a day or so (dentist) to 6 months or longer (burst appendix hospitalization). Minor wrist surgery took about 3 months to get back to "normal" impairment level. The only answer is "time will tell". good luck, AW
How was stroke ruled out? MRI? if not, then the Drs are just guessing about strokes or complications. Microstrokes after any medical procedure can create profound mental deficits. An MRI on a patient with dementia involves another round of strong anesthesia, so MRIs are often not done unless absolutely necessary.
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Tumbleweed - 01 Jan 2007 10:58 GMT > My 81 year-old dad who was most recently diagnosed with "mild dementia" > had a heart procedure done three weeks ago (angiplasty thing) and since [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Steve Did he have a general anaesthetic? That is known to set back Az sufferers some times very badly. I presume he had some sort of anesthesia to calm him so even if he wasnt totally unconscious it might have had a similar effect.
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Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 01 Jan 2007 17:41 GMT Hi Steve,
A couple of things occur to me. First off, "mild dementia" is not a diagnosis. Its a description of symptoms. Do the doctors know what the underlying cause of the dementia was. i.e. you get dementia FROM disease processes such as Alzheimer's or Pick's, or from events like strokes. Its important to know what the cause of his dementia was, since it gives you a clue to what might be going on now.
Most people with Alzheimer's will undergo a delirium post anesthesia that may last some time - my mother in law, for example, broke a hip in early Alzheimer's and was profoundly confused post surgery. She had been quite independent prior to the surgery, a little forgetful, but doing very well at managing her life - afterwards, she was loopy ot the point that the hospital sent a social worker to talk to us, suggesting we were lying about her presurgery condition, and that we were deep in denial.
She did come back mentally, but not quite all the way, and it took many weeks, if not months. Who knows exactly how much of it was from the anesthesia and how much from the stress of recovering from the hip break.
However, having said that, what you are describing, three weeks after the surgery, is certainly much more profound than what generally happens to people with AD. It makes me wonder, as per others here, if he didn't have dementia from multi-infarcts (an endless series of tiny strokes). With multi-infarct, the person often has what they sometimes call "TIAs" - transient ischemic attacks. If you look this up on the net, you will find they suggest that TIAs are a sign a stroke may be about to happen. However, more recent information suggests that every time a person has a TIA, its from a little blockage, and even if you don't get obvious stroke symptoms, damage is being done to the brain, and it accumulates, and results in cognitive decline. TIAs are not benign.
I would be insisting that some sort of brain scan be done to have a look at what is going on - have they done this? This is NOT normal in any way, even for a person with Alzheimer's.
I'm also confused by the doctor's use of the word sundowning. What sundowning refers to is the phenomenon of getting worse in the evenings. Many people with dementia do this - it has to do with the fact that they are holding onto their facilties with their finger nails - so they do best when they are well rested, calm, fed etc. - so early in the day they may seem quite with it, and as the day unravells, they seem to get worse. Not surprising that in the evening, when they are tired, perhaps stressed by all the end of day activities, it gets dark (many have vision and perception problems), etc. they seem to be more confused and agitated. "Sundowning" has NOTHING to do with post surgical confusion (which makes me think this doc knows nothing about dementia). Have they had a neurologist in to see him?
M.
Steve - 01 Jan 2007 23:12 GMT Note; no general anesthesia was admininstered. In fact we've opted out of other surgeries that may have been useful (for other problems) because of the fear of the potential effect of general anesthisia on his cognitive functioning. The prospect of of his having strokes for some time now is indeed scary. I guess we'll need to arrange for some sort of cat scan (hard to imagine he'll cooperate with that though; he's very chlostrophobic on top of everything else). They ruled out "stroke" per se by testing his movements/extremities, etc. but it appears these TIAs could only be ruled out with a scan? Thanks.
Steve
> Hi Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > M. Evelyn - 01 Jan 2007 23:39 GMT > Note; no general anesthesia was admininstered. In fact we've opted out > of other surgeries that may have been useful (for other problems) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve Steve there are places that have an "open MRI" if you look around. Ask questions. Someone surely should be able to help you find one.
Regards, Evelyn
august - 02 Jan 2007 03:42 GMT > Note; no general anesthesia was admininstered. In fact we've opted out > of other surgeries that may have been useful (for other problems) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve MRI works much better than a CT scan for testing for brain abnormalities. During a sedation MRI they give you a drug like Versed or Valium and a short acting painkiller to knock you out for just a few minutes. If you move around at all during the MRI it basically ruins the ability of the radiologist to accurately read the films. Good luck with this testing as it won't be easy in someone not cooperative. MRIs of the head aren't fun for anyone anyways. AW
Dennis P. Harris - 02 Jan 2007 11:19 GMT > They ruled out > "stroke" per se by testing his movements/extremities, etc. but it > appears these TIAs could only be ruled out with a scan? Thanks. Or strokes. Sound to me like someone is giving you the quick answers to get you out of their hair. They don't make much on Medicare patients these days.
You need to insist on a full neuro workup, with scans if needed. You need a correct diagnosis to deterine if there are meds that can help.
INSIST ON IT. If you can't get help at the place you're going now, go somewhere else, preferably a facility with a staff that has come actual knowledge about geriatric neuro and pysch problems.
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