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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / January 2007

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Mom's declining fast

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Dana Carpender - 30 Dec 2006 01:49 GMT
Last July, Mom could carry on semi-cogent conversations, although she
had no sense of time, thought she was in her forties, was unclear on why
I didn't remember her childhood, stuff like that.  But she knew all of
us, knew her friends, and could do basic self-care just fine -- bathing,
feeding, toileting, all that stuff.  She could do simple cooking tasks,
like making a salad or warming a slice of pizza.  Given plenty of time,
she could fold laundry.  We could take her to the zoo, a movie,
whatever, she could go to her book group, and she'd behave appropriately
and enjoy herself.

Since we put her in care -- absolutely necessary, as she'd become
paranoid and started to wander -- she has gone downhill *sharply.* For a
while she went through very bizarre sundowning, where after bedtime
she'd strip off all her clothes, overturn large pieces of furniture, and
crawl into bed with other patients. From my sister and dad, who are near
her and see her regularly, I hear she cannot speak clearly, but mumbles,
has to be fed, is starting to stoop and bend forward, doesn't know her
family.   The head of nursing at her facility has referred to her being
in "end stage," and expects Mom to be bedridden within 6 months.

What I'd really like to know is if anyone has any clue what this means
in terms of her projected lifespan?  I know there are no guarantees, and
that Mom could lie in a bed, her fingers curling into claws, for a
decade.  I'm just looking for an average, you know?

I confess, I'm hoping her difficulty eating means that she'll start
aspirating stuff, and getting pneumonia.  Sounds awful, I know, but she
made me promise several times that I'd help her die if she were ever
like this.  I can't do it; I'd spend the rest of my life in prison.  But
I wish without ceasing, all day, every day, for her to die.  So long as
they gave her something for the pain, pneumonia would be a blessing.

Dana
Evelyn - 30 Dec 2006 03:13 GMT
> Last July, Mom could carry on semi-cogent conversations, although she
> had no sense of time, thought she was in her forties, was unclear on why
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Dana

Dear Dana,

Nobody knows how long it is going to be till someone passes.   Maybe
some who see this illness all the time can speculate, but even those
people can tell you they have seen exceptions going either way.
Whatever anyone tells you is going to be a guess.   From what you say
though, your mom's illness is moving rather quickly.   That could be a
blessing in disguise.

When my mother in law first got diagnosed, she realized she had to
trust someone.  At that point she still had some of her facuties left
and was somewhat functional, but just beginning to be impaired.    She
knew she needed to get some legal stuff in place, and fast.  We made
the appointment and fortunately we saw a very excellent elder law
attorney who explained everything in detail that would be needed.

He talked to her in detail about what she wanted, in case of extended
illness, and in the course of discussion she said she wanted to just
jump off the roof of her house to die, if she was sick with something
terminal.   This of course, was not a good option.   He took a lot of
time and showed a lot of patience with her, in explaining every option.
 One thing she did agree about and was anxious to get in writing was
that she didn't want to be in pain.  In signing her health care
directives, she stated what she wanted.   This included the use of pain
medication ........ (get this next phrase)...

*****even though the use of such medications MIGHT shorten her life
*****

The truth of the matter is that pain medications often can and DO
shorten a persons life.   They depress respiration, circulation, and
often they ease the person's passage from this life to the next while
keeping them out of pain.   If you ask me, and if you ask a lot of
people, I think you will find that most people are perfectly OK with
this, and that is why that phrase I highlighted above is included in
the legal paperwork for health directives.   Taking heavy pain meds may
keep you comfortable as you die, but it also may hasten that
eventuality.

If your mom has any kind of health care proxy filled out where you can
make decisions for her, she may have already stated what her
preferences are regarding the use of pain medications etc.   One thing
we have talked about on this newsgroup a few times is how utterly CRUEL
it is to tube feed, or go to extensive means to prolong a persons life
who already has a terminal illness like Alzheimers disease.

If you love your family member, your decisions for them will be based
on their ultimate good, even if that means letting them go in as
painless and dignified a way as possible.    I know how sad and
difficult a time this can be and how hard it is to deal with these
issues and what awful decisions you are called upon to make.   You are
not the first person to see their mother in these kinds of
circumstances, and I assure you that in a nursing home most of the time
the people there are professionals, and they see it all the time.
Talk to them.  Talk to the director, talk to her doctor.    I suggest
that you play it by ear, as they say..... but first talk to the person
in charge of your mothers medical care to get an idea of what sort of
things you can expect, and what they do to keep the person comfortable
when the end is near.

Some people call Hospice in to help both the patient and the family at
this point.   The nursing home where my mother in law was had their own
sort of "hospice" care.   It was excellent, and we have only the
highest praise for them.   My mother in law's passing was gentle.
They did keep her out of severe pain as much as they could, and she had
an illness that was a really bad one on top of the alzheimers.  She had
pancreatic cancer.   We were grateful for the sensitivity that was
shown to her and to us at that time.

At any rate, once you know what the policy is there, you take it one
day at a time and hope for the best.

Good luck to you and your mom.

Evelyn
Chuck Whealton - 30 Dec 2006 04:21 GMT
Dana, this is very sad to hear.

My Aunt died from the effects of alzheimers.  She began to show
symptoms several months after my own Mother died.  It started with her
becoming EXTREMELY forgetful.

Within several months my Uncle (also suffering from dementia) had put
her in a pretty nice home right down the road from their house.

Without going into a bunch of depressing details, I don't believe it
took much more, if even a year for her to die.  Unfortunately, it's
different for everybody in how long it takes.  I have a colleague at
work who's Mother was in a home for YEARS.  It took so long that colon
cancer ended up killing her before her alzheimers - that's not to scare
or depress you.  That isn't the norm.

As for you wanting your Mother to go.... Well, I don't believe you're
the first person going through this to wish for it to end, and I doubt
you'll be the last.  It's a helpless feeling to know you can't do a
thing to help them.  I hated the way it felt.

Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Chuck Whealton - 30 Dec 2006 14:10 GMT
> My Aunt died from the effects of alzheimers.  She began to show
> symptoms several months after my own Mother died.  It started with her
> becoming EXTREMELY forgetful.

Everybody...  'Ya know?  When I reread my own post here, I looked at
the paragraph above and said to myself "No kidding, Ace.  Of course it
started with her becoming forgetful!".

What I meant to imply was that it was bad right from the start, not
gradual that any of us were able to see.  It was almost as if somebody
hit a switch one day and she started out somewhere BEYOND what I'd
consider the beginning, tell-tale, stages of the disease.  For my Aunt,
it wasn't an innocent forgetful episode here and there, but almost
everything at once.

I just wanted to clarify that.  I was NOT trying to be "funny".

Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Evelyn - 30 Dec 2006 14:44 GMT
> > My Aunt died from the effects of alzheimers.  She began to show
> > symptoms several months after my own Mother died.  It started with her
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Charles R. Whealton
> Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com

Chuck, I knew exactly what you meant, and I am sure others take on it
was pretty much the same as mine was.

Yes, usually noticing forgetfulness is the very first sign, but a
fellow I know who recently died, showed a strange "first sign".... he
started becoming a "masher" with attractive young ladies he knew in the
local bank, or in local organizations.  He suddenly started coming on
to these young women like he was a young single guy.   His wife didn't
know what to make of it.

His mother had died of alzheimers disease, and so I suspected that he
might be developing 'something,' but at that time nobody noticed any
other sign.  It got so bad that his "favorites" were actually given
permission to take a break and go into the back room to escape him when
he came into the local bank.

The issue of sexual harassment came up (in an organization we both
belonged to) and he never even imagined it could be about him!

In my mother in law it was her hygeine that began to suffer.  I hugged
her "hello" when we came to visit and I was astonished that she seemed
to smell a bit.  She was always a very clean person and it struck me as
really odd.  This was BEFORE we noticed forgetfulness, but as I look
back I did see some other odd things, but they never registered at the
time.

Have any members of this group noticed some other particular 'first
signs?'

Regards,
Evelyn
Chuck Whealton - 30 Dec 2006 15:11 GMT
> Chuck, I knew exactly what you meant, and I am sure others take on it
> was pretty much the same as mine was.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to these young women like he was a young single guy.   His wife didn't
> know what to make of it.

<deleted>

Thanks, Evelyn.

Strange you would mention this one.  Another colleague at a place I
have worked had the same thing happen with their Father (not the same
colleague who's Mother was in a home with alzheimers).

If I remember correctly, he would do the same thing at a place he was
going to for physical therapy and it (understandably) created a lot of
friction between he and his Wife.  He would actually go so far as to
call the women.

I can still see the worry on my colleague's face while they were
telling me about it.

Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 31 Dec 2006 01:41 GMT
The sexual thing sounds more like Pick's disease than Alzheimers.
Pick's (a relatively uncommon frontal lobe dementia) can be very
upsetting, since it often takes hold when the person is relatively
young, and the first symptoms are the personality changes and loss of
inhibitions - so the person's memory may seem fine but everyone is
horrified when the respected minister suddenly starts propositioning
the parishioners or making a grab for the church ladies in the soup
kitchen.

M
A R Pickett - 30 Dec 2006 15:38 GMT
Evelyn inquired - as I look
> back I did see some other odd things, but they never registered at the
> time.
>
> Have any members of this group noticed some other particular 'first
> signs?'

My parents' 50th wedding anniversary was in 1998.  There was an extended,
rather acrimonious, series of discussions about how to recognize the
milestone, with my mother at the center of most of the controversy (She had
her own set of difficulties, none related to memory)  Finally my father
planned a family weekend, with all kids and grandchildren there, and a
couple of other guests.

He planned an elaborate menu, including an appetizer array of what he called
a "cold buffet"  He was an excellent cook, and fixed quite a few things in
advance, and froze them.  When he turned to one of his daughters-in-law and
asked her to help him spread the "cold buffet" for guests to enjoy, she
discovered that everything was still frozen solid!

My parents did not have a microwave.

My father could not be dissuaded from serving this portion of the menu, so
my sisters and sisters-in-law boiled water and steamed everything to an
edible temperature.

He did not seem at all dismayed or embarrassed by his failure to defrost
things.  And he was on the verge of angry belligerence when someone
suggested skipping the buffet and concentrating on the main course.

The first TIA anyone witnessed or was aware of was about 14 years later.
But this incident is the most unnerving of quite a few things which now seem
very very significant.

We can now, sort of, laugh at our memories of that afternoon.  In family
lore, that menu is referred to as "the cold buffet, with a capital 'C' "

Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Now blogging!
http://www.journalscape.com/woodstock/

Remove lower case "e" to respond

Dana Carpender - 30 Dec 2006 16:20 GMT
> Have any members of this group noticed some other particular 'first
> signs?'

My mom became negative and fearful.  Years before we realized her memory
was a real problem, I recall telling her that my husband and I wanted to
go to England for a vacation, but that we hated the idea of 8 hours in
coach, so we thought we'd take a night flight, and each take an Ambien
right after take off. That way we could just sleep all the way to
England, and wake up ready to enjoy ourselves.

Her response?  "You can't do that! What if the plane goes down?"  I was
really pretty surprised; first of all, when was the last time you heard
of a plane dropping out of the sky into the Atlantic?  They mostly crash
on takeoff and landing.  And anyway, if the plane's going to crash into
the north Atlantic, I'm pretty sure I'd rather be asleep, you know?

It just surprised me.  This was the woman who, when I was fourteen, flew
us to California, picked up a 26' rental RV, had the guy show her how to
drive it around the block a couple of times, then took off across the
Sierra Nevada.  This was the girl who, when she was taking a steam liner
across the Atlantic to see my father, who was in the Navy and stationed
in the Mediterranean, took advantage of rough seas and everyone else
being laid up with sea sickness to sneak up to first class and enjoy
free hors d'ouvres, champagne, and dancing with the officers.  This was
not a timid woman.

As her memory went, and it became clear this was something serious, she
became more and more fearful, to the point where she was terrified -- in
a peaceful suburb -- of people sneaking up and looking through her
windows.  She was afraid to use her garage door opener, for fear the
electricity would go out and she'd be trapped in the garage -- even
though the garage had a regular entry door as well as the bay door.

But looking back, I see her fear of us taking sleeping pills on a night
flight as a real watershed moment.

Dana
Evelyn - 30 Dec 2006 16:43 GMT
> > Have any members of this group noticed some other particular 'first
> > signs?'My mom became negative and fearful.  Years before we realized her memory
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Dana

Hi Dana,

Yes, it is so amazing how these things stand out as time goes on, but
they were just "a bit odd" at the time.

Ida got sort of fearful and negative too early on.   This is a woman
who took her little boy and fled with her sister and brother in law
across the Baltic sea in a fishing boat to Sweden to escape the
Russians after WWII, then came to the US nearly the same way.   You'd
have thought nothing could phase her, but a few years before she
started showing any symptoms at all, she was very afraid in the airport
that we would get separated when Peter went to park the car in the long
term lot.   She couldn't grasp the idea that we all had tickets on the
same flight and would all get together before the plane took off.
This was years before any other symptoms showed themselves.   We joked
about it at the time.

Woodstock's "COLD buffet" is quite a tale too!   Wow, I can just
imagine trying to defrost everything quickly without a microwave!

Regards,
Evelyn
Val from Avon - 30 Dec 2006 07:35 GMT
Oh Dana - I feel for you and understand fully what you are saying. My Mum
has just recently had to move into a nursing home . She is very frail and
weak.

She got pneumonia and the Doctors said she wouldn't live the night out - but
she did - but of course she could no longer look after herself.

She has dementia and has started wandering so they have moved her to a
secure wing.

She is very sad and it breaks my heart every time I see her.

Quality of life  - that  is the thing I have the most trouble with. Where
is her quality of life now. She just sits on the side of her bed and cries.
She doesn't seem to know who I am anymore.
She eats, sleeps and sits. So very sad.

Old age sucks - I hope I don't live long enough to have to go through what
Mum is facing.

Val

> Last July, Mom could carry on semi-cogent conversations, although she had
> no sense of time, thought she was in her forties, was unclear on why I
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Dana
June - 30 Dec 2006 21:13 GMT
I suppose each person's perception of quality of life is different. This
true of my mother since she's so different than others.   I feel so bad for
her as she tries to struggle with her sanity.   She asked me the other day
if the "War of Worlds" story was real or not.  She mostly sleeps and eats.
She reads over and over the same magazines and books.   She has only close
family now.   She used to have a wide circle of friends but many have passed
or simply dropped her.   Well over 13 years of confusion and forgetfulness
and no end in sight.   My daughter is the only grandchild out of  7 that is
old enough to remember her before the dementia.  If it were me, I would
rather have the fast moving Alz and get it over with and as far as I'm
concerned, a good quality of life with dementia is an oxymoron.......June

> Oh Dana - I feel for you and understand fully what you are saying. My Mum
> has just recently had to move into a nursing home . She is very frail and
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>>
>> Dana
Dennis P. Harris - 31 Dec 2006 01:36 GMT
> If it were me, I would
> rather have the fast moving Alz and get it over with

it sounds like your mom's dementia is not ALZ.  it sounds more
like the result of stroke damage.  if that's the case, she could
stay at this plateau level for years unless she has another
stroke.

after my mom's first couple of mini-strokes, i expected the next
one to just take her, especially when she was frequently going
off her meds, including her blood pressure medication.  what
happened instead was another mini-stroke, which put her in a
group home, where she refused to eat.
June - 31 Dec 2006 02:26 GMT
Yes,  I figure it's strokes too but so subtle and so slow (since 1993).   I
really don't see a whole lot of difference from last year to this year or
even two years ago.   I do see a little difference from three years ago.
The one thing is she always had somewhat low blood pressure for years and
then last summer it was weird -- 172/0 at one doctor's office and the next
day at a different doctor's office it was pretty much the same.  Then after
several different tries the nurse finally settled on 170/48.  The doctor
ordered blood tests which came back normal.  I guess the point of my post is
no matter what the cause of the dementia, I would rather go quickly even if
it's somewhat benign slow dementia.  Just my feelings, but then I'm sure my
mother felt the same way...........

> it sounds like your mom's dementia is not ALZ.  it sounds more
> like the result of stroke damage.  if that's the case, she could
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> happened instead was another mini-stroke, which put her in a
> group home, where she refused to eat.
Beth Cole - 02 Jan 2007 14:24 GMT
> What I'd really like to know is if anyone has any clue what this means
> in terms of her projected lifespan?  I know there are no guarantees, and
> that Mom could lie in a bed, her fingers curling into claws, for a
> decade.  I'm just looking for an average, you know?

I wish I could give you good news and say that this means she'll go
fast.  My MIL has been at that stage for 3 1/2 years.  She managed to
outlive her hospice benefits from Medicare, so she's back in "regular"
nursing home care, having been in the home for 5 years as of
Thanksgiving week.

I hope for your mother's sake that she does not linger the way my MIL has.

Beth

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Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain

Dana Carpender - 02 Jan 2007 18:35 GMT
>> What I'd really like to know is if anyone has any clue what this means
>> in terms of her projected lifespan?  I know there are no guarantees,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I hope for your mother's sake that she does not linger the way my MIL has.

That's my fear.  The women in her family have tended to live to heroic
ages -- her Aunt Bertha made it to 97.  Mom is only 76, and physically
is in good shape.  I'm hoping for aspiration pneumonia, which is a
horrible kind of thing to wish for, but there it is.

Dana
Adelle - 04 Jan 2007 20:04 GMT
>>> What I'd really like to know is if anyone has any clue what this means
>>> in terms of her projected lifespan?  I know there are no guarantees, and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Dana

Not horrible. Merciful.

My FIL was in a NH, continent, mobile, and fairly good natured (when his
meds were balanced, on verge of psychotic when not) and we anticipated he
might go on that way for over a decade as his family was long lived - until
he fractured his hip. He lost so many skills from the anesthesia, including
oral motor skills which precipitated aspiration pneumonia. We all considered
it merciful he did not languish in continued loss of self  for so long.

Adelle
ladylove77 - 04 Jan 2007 20:44 GMT
Adelle, I felt the same way with Grayson.  I still miss him at times, think
about him often, and my son told me last week that he still misses his dad.
But I would not want him back in the condition he was in.  I loved him too
much.
Gwen

>>>> What I'd really like to know is if anyone has any clue what this means
>>>> in terms of her projected lifespan?  I know there are no guarantees,
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Adelle
 
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