Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / September 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

blowing off some steam

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
A R Pickett - 13 Sep 2006 14:09 GMT
My 91 year old father who has vascular dementia had dental surgery yesterday
to remove three abcessed teeth.  What follows is my sister's report on how
the day went.  I have been concerned anticipating this event.  In person to
person conversations as well as on the phone my siblings and I have been
urging Dad to take advantage of a "respite care" room at his apartment house
where and RN can assist with any post surgical care needs.  In this day and
age of immediate discharge from hospitals, the facility rightly plans to
provide a little extra care when residents need it.

Begin quote from my sister -

I called the apt complex a few minutes ago to check on Dad.  He was under
Dr's
orders to stay put in "respite care" for a minimum of 24 hours after the
administration of anesthesia. ( 24 hours after surgery would be 2:45 p.m.
Wednesday Sept13).

Sometime around 8:00 this evening, when the nurse was doing her rounds at
the Alzheimers unit, he took off and went home to his apartment.  He has
refused to take any pain medication and is convinced that there is no
need for him to remain where it's convenient for the nurses to monitor
his condition,  .  Now it means that the night shift RN has to tromp
downstairs to check on him.  Kerri, the nurse who helped me get him out
of my car and delivered to the 4th floor,  tried her best but failed to
get it across to him that he ought to cooperate.

He was given specific instructions concerning what and what not to eat,
and how to eat, so as to minimize the possibility of a "dry socket".  I
don't know if the staff can persuade him to comply with instructions.

Today was a never-ending exercise in frustration.  The wheelchair that I
was told would be available at the oral surgeon's office was not.
Another patient was using it.  So we had to coax Dad  out of my car,
through the door and down the hall, leaning on me and the nurses for
balance.  [[ insert from Woodstock, my Dad uses a walker for all ambulatory
movement  he is very unsteady on his feet]]  I was told that I should wait;
it would be only 30 minutes
until he was ready to return to his apt house.  It turned out to be more
than
an hour.(I had suspected as much but didn't go back to my office because
the oral surgeon's staff insisted they were right)   Then the Rx for pain
medication had not been filled when I went to pick it up.  Long story;
the short version is that the complex's latest "improvement in delivering
service" is a setback in some areas.      I had told my boss that I didn't
think my whole afternoon would be consumed with this, but it was, and I
ended up at the office until well past 6:00 doing what I
could/should/would have done had I not  been trucking Dad to and fro.

When I finally got back to my office my boss [[ insert from Woodstock - my
sister's boss is a wonderful man, very patient and understanding of the
demands Dad puts on my sister's time.  For him to be visibly angry shows how
frustrating this whole thing was for my sister ]] my boss was trying his
best, unsuccessfully, to conceal his anger that I was away from work when he
needed my help.   He is an angel; even when things go wrong he doesn't
explode.  I think this is because I have worked for him long enough that
no one could fill my shoes.   He could hire another paralegal; (the town is
overflowing with people who have completed paralegal training coursework)
that's not the point.  The point is that it takes years to build what I can
deliver to him as his assistant.  No one could walk in
tomorrow and do it..  My success in my "paid for" job means everything to
me.  I could scream at Dad for his  needs resulting in a black mark on my
employee record.

Our mother is rolling in her grave and I am pissed.  None of you need do
anything; Dad won't change.  I just feel better unloading.  Thanks for
reading through all of the foregoing garbage.

End of quote from my sister.

Since I function as long distance support for her, I am frustrated too and I
am thinking about calling my Dad on his reneging on his promise to me in a
phone conversation to stay in the respite care room.  As I write this, I am
reminding my self of the ongoing theme here that familiary surroundings
become increasingly important to a person with dementia and I think that we
could have anticipated this action on his part.  There are enough financial
resources that we could have hired a home health care aid to stay in his
apartment overnight.  Blindsided one more time!  He is still capable of
participating in a rational conversation at times - I will see how his
demeanor is when I talk to him later today or tomorrow.  If I was on the
phone with him now he would be on the receiving end of a "talking to"

Thanks for listening.  Woodstock
Signature


"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Remove lower case "e" to respond

Evelyn Ruut - 13 Sep 2006 14:55 GMT
> My 91 year old father who has vascular dementia had dental surgery
> yesterday
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>
> Thanks for listening.  Woodstock

Hi Woodstock,

Re; "calling him on it," .......  Do you think he even remembers the
conversation where he promised anything?   I don't think so.

My mother in law had dental work too, and the doctor distinctly told her NOT
to rinse out her mouth, (same reason you said... not to dislodge the clot
and create a dry socket).

She said "OK"  and I reminded her of it several times too.    She went into
the bathroom to (presumably) go potty, and of course, there she was,
vigorously washing out her mouth with water, over and over.   I yelled at
her and told her she wasn't supposed to do that.   The doctor made it very
clear.

She didn't remember having any teeth pulled at all.
Signature


Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

A R Pickett - 13 Sep 2006 20:18 GMT
Evelyn wrote - > Re; "calling him on it," .......  Do you think he even
remembers the
> conversation where he promised anything?   I don't think so.

You're right, of course.  Thanks for the reminder.  I needed to vent some
frustration when I posted earlier today, and as the day has worn on I've
come to my senses a little.

My sister reports that he now denies the surgery was necessary in the first
place, has ignored diet restrictions while he recovers, has removed the
gauze packing, and refuses to let the nurses at his apt facility examine his
mouth!

I and my siblings have our fingers crossed that no infection develops.  This
is not his first display of completely ignoring post operative instructions
from a doctor.  Short of hog tying him to his bed we are out of ideas.  Our
mother would be livid with rage if she were still here.

Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"

Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author
Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Remove lower case "e" to respond

Evelyn Ruut - 13 Sep 2006 20:38 GMT
> Evelyn wrote - > Re; "calling him on it," .......  Do you think he even
> remembers the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Our
> mother would be livid with rage if she were still here.

Woodstock, my mother in law was just as bad.   She wouldn't follow any
directions about anything because she didn't really remember that she'd had
any work done in the first place.  Maybe your dad feels reasonably
comfortable, and so he thinks there is nothing wrong.   I hope for your sake
that he doesn't develop any kind of problem from it.   My mother in law
didn't, and it was a near miracle, because she disobeyed every instruction
the doctor gave too.

Now my father is coming into the same state of mind.  In his case paranoia
and hostility are always his first line of defense when anything comes into
question.   We are all three of us still quite afraid of him.   My mother
handled my father somewhat OK, but that was because she was on tranquilizers
most of the time.    He's never been an easy guy to get along with, but with
his vascular problems he is nearly impossible.

One thing that has me wondering;  If the facility he is in has a nurse that
is supposed to be watching over him as he gets better, why wasn't she able
to keep him where he was supposed to be?   Is it an assisted living or a
more secure kind of facility?
Signature


Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

> "Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Remove lower case "e" to respond
A R Pickett - 13 Sep 2006 23:10 GMT
Evelyn inquired - > One thing that has me wondering;  If the facility he is
in has a nurse that
> is supposed to be watching over him as he gets better, why wasn't she able
> to keep him where he was supposed to be?   Is it an assisted living or a
> more secure kind of facility?

As it happens she also is on call for nursing tasks which come up at the
Alzheimers unit in the same complex (Dad is still in "supported independent"
area) and left to go over there (about 1/2 block away)  While she was gone,
Dad decamped and refused to return.

She did visit him every couple of hours throughout the evening and night.
This morning he has removed the gauze padding, ordered and eaten regular
food (not the prescribed soft diet) refuses to let them inspect the
mouth/stitches etc.  To top it off also tells staff and friends that the
whole thing was not necessary in the first place.  Although the situation
with his teeth could have led to an infection of his heart valves, according
to the dentist and surgeon.

What a stubborn old guy he is!  If his physical health declines to the point
where he needs assisted living and/or skilled nursing care we will probably
be in the soup big time.

I'm probably calm enough to give him a call here in a few minutes.  I'll see
how the conversation goes and may gently remind him of his promise to me to
take advantage of the extra care.

Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Remove lower case "e" to respond

august - 14 Sep 2006 00:10 GMT
> What a stubborn old guy he is!  If his physical health declines to the
> point
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to
> take advantage of the extra care.

It's not stubborness. You are dealing with an injured brain so rational
decision making is simply not going to happen.

At the suggestion of our dentist we will no longer have any dental work done
on our LO unless there is pain or infection. AW
Evelyn Ruut - 14 Sep 2006 01:23 GMT
> Evelyn inquired - > One thing that has me wondering;  If the facility he
> is
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> to
> take advantage of the extra care.

Hi again Woodstock,

Do you think he will recall either the conversation or the promise?

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Tumbleweed - 15 Sep 2006 08:38 GMT
> I'm probably calm enough to give him a call here in a few minutes.  I'll
> see
> how the conversation goes and may gently remind him of his promise to me
> to
> take advantage of the extra care.

Sorry to be blunt, but I dont think you you 'get it'. You are reminding
someone with Alzheimers? To what effect?

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 14 Sep 2006 19:35 GMT
Woodstock

Having been through this.....its time to get out the screwdriver and
collectively give your attitude/perception/expectation screw a couple
of turns.

I hear your frustration and irritation and your sister's, but its aimed
at a man who has a progressive dementia.  He has an injured brain which
affects his insight into his own situation and problems. He can't see
what you can see, even if it seems blindingly obvious. His ability to
think things through and come to rational decisions is impaired. So,
you can urge him to cooperate until you are blue, you can lay out all
the facts and reasons so the conclusion is inescapable, and you won't
necessarily get the outcome you want. He is doing the best he can with
what he has going for him cognitively. He is not being stubborn,
irrational, balky, deliberately annoying etc. because those words apply
to a person with an intact brain who can actually understand the
consequence of their actions and behaviours. Your sister is annoyed
with him for the demands on her time - but honestly, what other choice
is there, unless you hire someone to look after him, ferry him to
appointments, or have him live in the level of supportive care where
there staff who can look after escorts to appointments and procedures.

To keep him safe and healthy, never mind trying to get him to do
anything. Arrange it so there are no choices on his part, and no
actions required. Get someone to look after him in his apartment.

Giving him a talking to is a waste of breath. Its like wagging your
finger at a toddler for being a toddler. He's not capable of being
sensible when it comes to his own care, so the failure is in the
unrealistic expectations of the caregivers, the way you perceive his
abilities and motivations, and the fact you'all are still holding onto
beliefs about him based on who he was before his brain was damaged -
rather than on a flinty eyed version of current reality. Don't be
fooled by his ability to sound rational and with it during a phone
conversation. If you had talked to my MIL right into mid dementia, you
would never have believed for one minute she was impaired. She was
very, very, VERY good at sounding just fine, diverting your attention,
being vague, sounding reasonable. However, as I have mentioned before,
my husband sat with her through some cognitive testing, like what they
put a kid through to look for learning disability, and it was
absolutely shatteringly shocking. She had holes in her cognitive
abilities that you could drive a Hummer through, none of which were
apparent to anyone having family or social interactions with her.

Don't ask for his cooperation. Don't expect him to agree or give
permission. Don't expect him to understand the trouble you go to, to
see the inconvenience he causes, or to feel bad about your frustration,
the impacts on your time, employment or anything else. Don't think he's
doing this deliberately - he is not. Don't expect him to be grateful.
Just do whatever you have to do to keep him safe.

Mary G
Bud - 15 Sep 2006 01:39 GMT
> Just do whatever you have to do to keep him safe.

Very good advice from someone who must have BTDT to have said it so clearly.

Bud
Dennis P. Harris - 15 Sep 2006 07:42 GMT
> Don't ask for his cooperation. Don't expect him to agree or give
> permission. Don't expect him to understand the trouble you go to, to
> see the inconvenience he causes, or to feel bad about your frustration,
> the impacts on your time, employment or anything else. Don't think he's
> doing this deliberately - he is not. Don't expect him to be grateful.
> Just do whatever you have to do to keep him safe.

what she said.  been there, done that.

she's right.  things are different now, and you and your family
should stop expecting him to cooperate in any way.  that may come
later, but only because his cognitive abilities will have
deteriorated to the point that he will do almost anything he's
told to do.

i would suggest what she mentioned:  a cognition test that you
can observe, either in person or on videotape, so that you get a
real idea of his deficiencies.  consciously or unconsciously, you
are in denial about his current abilities, very typical of
families dealing with folks at his current state of dementia.

that will help you decide about whether it's time for placement
in a more secure facility.

for everyone's sake, i hope that he recovers from the oral
surgery without an infection.  dental infections are particularly
dangerous because of their proximity to the brain, and also
because for demented folks, any kind of illness or infection
seems to greatly reduce cognitive ability.
A R Pickett - 15 Sep 2006 17:14 GMT
Thanks to everyone who responded.  Several of you pointed out where my
thinking was skewed and that was a message I needed to hear.  So thanks
again, and I mean that sincerely

For august - the three teeth involved were all abcessed and the diagnosing
dentist, the oral surgeon, and the MD at his apt facility all were concerned
that the infection would migrate to a heart valve.  So I think the surgery
was indicated.

For Dennis - we have had several cognition tests.  He cooperates quite
cheerfully, regards them as a kind of mental game of "can you stump the
neurologist?"  That series of tests is where we got the diagnosis of
vascular dementia.  He has had several TIA's one witnessed by our mother,
one by my sister and her husband and we suspect there have been others based
on his descriptions of some "mental lapses" as he terms them.

Our irritation (my sister's and mine) was primarily at the staff of the
surgeon's office and his apt facility, and the perceived failure (perceived
primarily by my sister) of those various staffs to comprehend fully what the
challenges were and to cooperate with her as she helped him through that
day.  My sister has a medical POA for his care, and often feels like staff
forgets and/or ignores its existence.

I have spoken with him.  I did not "call him on anything"  I took Evelyn's
advice to heart on that.  But he himself volunteered that he took an
opportunity to leave the nursing care unit room when the nurse was absent
for some reason.  And that although he had told us he would use that
facility, on thinking it all over he didn't think it was a good idea.  He
refused to discuss rinsing his mouth, diet choices, etc.  I just let that
go.

I lurked here for awhile before I started posting.  I've looked again at the
original title of my post on this issue.  I was primarily looking for a
place to vent some frustrations.  I did get some valuable advice and I
sincerely thank you all for it.

But I think perhaps ASA is not the best place to "vent"  Back to lurking
Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Remove lower case "e" to respond

Evelyn Ruut - 15 Sep 2006 17:43 GMT
> Thanks to everyone who responded.  Several of you pointed out where my
> thinking was skewed and that was a message I needed to hear.  So thanks
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> But I think perhaps ASA is not the best place to "vent"  Back to lurking

Hi Woodstock,

Sad to say you are not the first to complain here about it 'not being a good
place to vent.'   I both agree and disagree.   You see, when you vent, it is
because you have encountered a problem, some sort of a frustrating
situation.    Sometimes we can't see "the forest for the trees" as they say.
Sometimes another person who has been in your shoes can offer something of
value, sometimes not.   It is always up to you what to take as valuable
advice, and what to discard as inapplicable in your case.

If you take the comments too much as "criticism" you are bound to get hurt.
It is important to remember that all criticism does not come from ill will.
For the most part I would say that NO criticism here from a fellow caregiver
comes from ill will.

Those who offer advice cannot control much how their commentary is taken,
only how it is given, and not everyone is all that skillful that their
desire to help comes through clearly.

All of usenet is like this.   Newbies in almost every newsgroup (I frequent
a couple of them) are told to "grow a thicker skin," and it is a very, very
hard thing to do.   When we speak from our hearts about problems we
encounter in areas close to our lives, and someone blows us off as though it
was nothing, or says something that strikes at the heart, it can hurt a lot.
Believe me I know.   I have been on the receiving end many times.

Of course we can simply go away (or just lurk) and lose the value of
communication with others, both good and bad, and to my way of thinking that
is not such a good deal.

My advice to you is this;  don't take offense unless you are totally sure
offense was being given.   Of course, the written word comes across without
a smile, without a soft tone of voice, and someone who is thinking they are
just being concise, often appears to be curt.    Give the benefit of the
doubt.

Believe me, we are all on YOUR side here.    Hey, if someone trashes you I
personally will defend you.    If I am not defending you, then maybe no one
was giving offense.

You may be oversensitized because you are stressed by the whole situation,
and who can blame you?

Don't get offended and go away.   If you do, you may lose advice or
information or insights that came the hard way to others.

((((((((  hug )))))))))

(just in case you needed one :-)

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Tumbleweed - 15 Sep 2006 22:56 GMT
wot she said.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.