Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / September 2006
blowing off some steam
|
|
Thread rating:  |
A R Pickett - 13 Sep 2006 14:09 GMT My 91 year old father who has vascular dementia had dental surgery yesterday to remove three abcessed teeth. What follows is my sister's report on how the day went. I have been concerned anticipating this event. In person to person conversations as well as on the phone my siblings and I have been urging Dad to take advantage of a "respite care" room at his apartment house where and RN can assist with any post surgical care needs. In this day and age of immediate discharge from hospitals, the facility rightly plans to provide a little extra care when residents need it.
Begin quote from my sister -
I called the apt complex a few minutes ago to check on Dad. He was under Dr's orders to stay put in "respite care" for a minimum of 24 hours after the administration of anesthesia. ( 24 hours after surgery would be 2:45 p.m. Wednesday Sept13).
Sometime around 8:00 this evening, when the nurse was doing her rounds at the Alzheimers unit, he took off and went home to his apartment. He has refused to take any pain medication and is convinced that there is no need for him to remain where it's convenient for the nurses to monitor his condition, . Now it means that the night shift RN has to tromp downstairs to check on him. Kerri, the nurse who helped me get him out of my car and delivered to the 4th floor, tried her best but failed to get it across to him that he ought to cooperate.
He was given specific instructions concerning what and what not to eat, and how to eat, so as to minimize the possibility of a "dry socket". I don't know if the staff can persuade him to comply with instructions.
Today was a never-ending exercise in frustration. The wheelchair that I was told would be available at the oral surgeon's office was not. Another patient was using it. So we had to coax Dad out of my car, through the door and down the hall, leaning on me and the nurses for balance. [[ insert from Woodstock, my Dad uses a walker for all ambulatory movement he is very unsteady on his feet]] I was told that I should wait; it would be only 30 minutes until he was ready to return to his apt house. It turned out to be more than an hour.(I had suspected as much but didn't go back to my office because the oral surgeon's staff insisted they were right) Then the Rx for pain medication had not been filled when I went to pick it up. Long story; the short version is that the complex's latest "improvement in delivering service" is a setback in some areas. I had told my boss that I didn't think my whole afternoon would be consumed with this, but it was, and I ended up at the office until well past 6:00 doing what I could/should/would have done had I not been trucking Dad to and fro.
When I finally got back to my office my boss [[ insert from Woodstock - my sister's boss is a wonderful man, very patient and understanding of the demands Dad puts on my sister's time. For him to be visibly angry shows how frustrating this whole thing was for my sister ]] my boss was trying his best, unsuccessfully, to conceal his anger that I was away from work when he needed my help. He is an angel; even when things go wrong he doesn't explode. I think this is because I have worked for him long enough that no one could fill my shoes. He could hire another paralegal; (the town is overflowing with people who have completed paralegal training coursework) that's not the point. The point is that it takes years to build what I can deliver to him as his assistant. No one could walk in tomorrow and do it.. My success in my "paid for" job means everything to me. I could scream at Dad for his needs resulting in a black mark on my employee record.
Our mother is rolling in her grave and I am pissed. None of you need do anything; Dad won't change. I just feel better unloading. Thanks for reading through all of the foregoing garbage.
End of quote from my sister.
Since I function as long distance support for her, I am frustrated too and I am thinking about calling my Dad on his reneging on his promise to me in a phone conversation to stay in the respite care room. As I write this, I am reminding my self of the ongoing theme here that familiary surroundings become increasingly important to a person with dementia and I think that we could have anticipated this action on his part. There are enough financial resources that we could have hired a home health care aid to stay in his apartment overnight. Blindsided one more time! He is still capable of participating in a rational conversation at times - I will see how his demeanor is when I talk to him later today or tomorrow. If I was on the phone with him now he would be on the receiving end of a "talking to"
Thanks for listening. Woodstock
 Signature
"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth" Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author
Read my book reviews at: http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html
Remove lower case "e" to respond
Evelyn Ruut - 13 Sep 2006 14:55 GMT > My 91 year old father who has vascular dementia had dental surgery > yesterday [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > Thanks for listening. Woodstock Hi Woodstock,
Re; "calling him on it," ....... Do you think he even remembers the conversation where he promised anything? I don't think so.
My mother in law had dental work too, and the doctor distinctly told her NOT to rinse out her mouth, (same reason you said... not to dislodge the clot and create a dry socket).
She said "OK" and I reminded her of it several times too. She went into the bathroom to (presumably) go potty, and of course, there she was, vigorously washing out her mouth with water, over and over. I yelled at her and told her she wasn't supposed to do that. The doctor made it very clear.
She didn't remember having any teeth pulled at all.
 Signature
Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
A R Pickett - 13 Sep 2006 20:18 GMT Evelyn wrote - > Re; "calling him on it," ....... Do you think he even remembers the
> conversation where he promised anything? I don't think so. You're right, of course. Thanks for the reminder. I needed to vent some frustration when I posted earlier today, and as the day has worn on I've come to my senses a little.
My sister reports that he now denies the surgery was necessary in the first place, has ignored diet restrictions while he recovers, has removed the gauze packing, and refuses to let the nurses at his apt facility examine his mouth!
I and my siblings have our fingers crossed that no infection develops. This is not his first display of completely ignoring post operative instructions from a doctor. Short of hog tying him to his bed we are out of ideas. Our mother would be livid with rage if she were still here.
 Signature A R Pickett aka Woodstock
"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author Read my book reviews at: http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html
Remove lower case "e" to respond
Evelyn Ruut - 13 Sep 2006 20:38 GMT > Evelyn wrote - > Re; "calling him on it," ....... Do you think he even > remembers the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Our > mother would be livid with rage if she were still here. Woodstock, my mother in law was just as bad. She wouldn't follow any directions about anything because she didn't really remember that she'd had any work done in the first place. Maybe your dad feels reasonably comfortable, and so he thinks there is nothing wrong. I hope for your sake that he doesn't develop any kind of problem from it. My mother in law didn't, and it was a near miracle, because she disobeyed every instruction the doctor gave too.
Now my father is coming into the same state of mind. In his case paranoia and hostility are always his first line of defense when anything comes into question. We are all three of us still quite afraid of him. My mother handled my father somewhat OK, but that was because she was on tranquilizers most of the time. He's never been an easy guy to get along with, but with his vascular problems he is nearly impossible.
One thing that has me wondering; If the facility he is in has a nurse that is supposed to be watching over him as he gets better, why wasn't she able to keep him where he was supposed to be? Is it an assisted living or a more secure kind of facility?
 Signature
Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
> "Sometimes the facts threaten the truth" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Remove lower case "e" to respond A R Pickett - 13 Sep 2006 23:10 GMT Evelyn inquired - > One thing that has me wondering; If the facility he is in has a nurse that
> is supposed to be watching over him as he gets better, why wasn't she able > to keep him where he was supposed to be? Is it an assisted living or a > more secure kind of facility? As it happens she also is on call for nursing tasks which come up at the Alzheimers unit in the same complex (Dad is still in "supported independent" area) and left to go over there (about 1/2 block away) While she was gone, Dad decamped and refused to return.
She did visit him every couple of hours throughout the evening and night. This morning he has removed the gauze padding, ordered and eaten regular food (not the prescribed soft diet) refuses to let them inspect the mouth/stitches etc. To top it off also tells staff and friends that the whole thing was not necessary in the first place. Although the situation with his teeth could have led to an infection of his heart valves, according to the dentist and surgeon.
What a stubborn old guy he is! If his physical health declines to the point where he needs assisted living and/or skilled nursing care we will probably be in the soup big time.
I'm probably calm enough to give him a call here in a few minutes. I'll see how the conversation goes and may gently remind him of his promise to me to take advantage of the extra care.
 Signature A R Pickett aka Woodstock
"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth" Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author
Read my book reviews at: http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html
Remove lower case "e" to respond
august - 14 Sep 2006 00:10 GMT > What a stubborn old guy he is! If his physical health declines to the > point [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to > take advantage of the extra care. It's not stubborness. You are dealing with an injured brain so rational decision making is simply not going to happen.
At the suggestion of our dentist we will no longer have any dental work done on our LO unless there is pain or infection. AW
Evelyn Ruut - 14 Sep 2006 01:23 GMT > Evelyn inquired - > One thing that has me wondering; If the facility he > is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > to > take advantage of the extra care. Hi again Woodstock,
Do you think he will recall either the conversation or the promise?
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Tumbleweed - 15 Sep 2006 08:38 GMT > I'm probably calm enough to give him a call here in a few minutes. I'll > see > how the conversation goes and may gently remind him of his promise to me > to > take advantage of the extra care. Sorry to be blunt, but I dont think you you 'get it'. You are reminding someone with Alzheimers? To what effect?
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 14 Sep 2006 19:35 GMT Woodstock
Having been through this.....its time to get out the screwdriver and collectively give your attitude/perception/expectation screw a couple of turns.
I hear your frustration and irritation and your sister's, but its aimed at a man who has a progressive dementia. He has an injured brain which affects his insight into his own situation and problems. He can't see what you can see, even if it seems blindingly obvious. His ability to think things through and come to rational decisions is impaired. So, you can urge him to cooperate until you are blue, you can lay out all the facts and reasons so the conclusion is inescapable, and you won't necessarily get the outcome you want. He is doing the best he can with what he has going for him cognitively. He is not being stubborn, irrational, balky, deliberately annoying etc. because those words apply to a person with an intact brain who can actually understand the consequence of their actions and behaviours. Your sister is annoyed with him for the demands on her time - but honestly, what other choice is there, unless you hire someone to look after him, ferry him to appointments, or have him live in the level of supportive care where there staff who can look after escorts to appointments and procedures.
To keep him safe and healthy, never mind trying to get him to do anything. Arrange it so there are no choices on his part, and no actions required. Get someone to look after him in his apartment.
Giving him a talking to is a waste of breath. Its like wagging your finger at a toddler for being a toddler. He's not capable of being sensible when it comes to his own care, so the failure is in the unrealistic expectations of the caregivers, the way you perceive his abilities and motivations, and the fact you'all are still holding onto beliefs about him based on who he was before his brain was damaged - rather than on a flinty eyed version of current reality. Don't be fooled by his ability to sound rational and with it during a phone conversation. If you had talked to my MIL right into mid dementia, you would never have believed for one minute she was impaired. She was very, very, VERY good at sounding just fine, diverting your attention, being vague, sounding reasonable. However, as I have mentioned before, my husband sat with her through some cognitive testing, like what they put a kid through to look for learning disability, and it was absolutely shatteringly shocking. She had holes in her cognitive abilities that you could drive a Hummer through, none of which were apparent to anyone having family or social interactions with her.
Don't ask for his cooperation. Don't expect him to agree or give permission. Don't expect him to understand the trouble you go to, to see the inconvenience he causes, or to feel bad about your frustration, the impacts on your time, employment or anything else. Don't think he's doing this deliberately - he is not. Don't expect him to be grateful. Just do whatever you have to do to keep him safe.
Mary G
Bud - 15 Sep 2006 01:39 GMT > Just do whatever you have to do to keep him safe. Very good advice from someone who must have BTDT to have said it so clearly.
Bud
Dennis P. Harris - 15 Sep 2006 07:42 GMT > Don't ask for his cooperation. Don't expect him to agree or give > permission. Don't expect him to understand the trouble you go to, to > see the inconvenience he causes, or to feel bad about your frustration, > the impacts on your time, employment or anything else. Don't think he's > doing this deliberately - he is not. Don't expect him to be grateful. > Just do whatever you have to do to keep him safe. what she said. been there, done that.
she's right. things are different now, and you and your family should stop expecting him to cooperate in any way. that may come later, but only because his cognitive abilities will have deteriorated to the point that he will do almost anything he's told to do.
i would suggest what she mentioned: a cognition test that you can observe, either in person or on videotape, so that you get a real idea of his deficiencies. consciously or unconsciously, you are in denial about his current abilities, very typical of families dealing with folks at his current state of dementia.
that will help you decide about whether it's time for placement in a more secure facility.
for everyone's sake, i hope that he recovers from the oral surgery without an infection. dental infections are particularly dangerous because of their proximity to the brain, and also because for demented folks, any kind of illness or infection seems to greatly reduce cognitive ability.
A R Pickett - 15 Sep 2006 17:14 GMT Thanks to everyone who responded. Several of you pointed out where my thinking was skewed and that was a message I needed to hear. So thanks again, and I mean that sincerely
For august - the three teeth involved were all abcessed and the diagnosing dentist, the oral surgeon, and the MD at his apt facility all were concerned that the infection would migrate to a heart valve. So I think the surgery was indicated.
For Dennis - we have had several cognition tests. He cooperates quite cheerfully, regards them as a kind of mental game of "can you stump the neurologist?" That series of tests is where we got the diagnosis of vascular dementia. He has had several TIA's one witnessed by our mother, one by my sister and her husband and we suspect there have been others based on his descriptions of some "mental lapses" as he terms them.
Our irritation (my sister's and mine) was primarily at the staff of the surgeon's office and his apt facility, and the perceived failure (perceived primarily by my sister) of those various staffs to comprehend fully what the challenges were and to cooperate with her as she helped him through that day. My sister has a medical POA for his care, and often feels like staff forgets and/or ignores its existence.
I have spoken with him. I did not "call him on anything" I took Evelyn's advice to heart on that. But he himself volunteered that he took an opportunity to leave the nursing care unit room when the nurse was absent for some reason. And that although he had told us he would use that facility, on thinking it all over he didn't think it was a good idea. He refused to discuss rinsing his mouth, diet choices, etc. I just let that go.
I lurked here for awhile before I started posting. I've looked again at the original title of my post on this issue. I was primarily looking for a place to vent some frustrations. I did get some valuable advice and I sincerely thank you all for it.
But I think perhaps ASA is not the best place to "vent" Back to lurking
 Signature A R Pickett aka Woodstock
"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth" Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author
Read my book reviews at: http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html
Remove lower case "e" to respond
Evelyn Ruut - 15 Sep 2006 17:43 GMT > Thanks to everyone who responded. Several of you pointed out where my > thinking was skewed and that was a message I needed to hear. So thanks [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > But I think perhaps ASA is not the best place to "vent" Back to lurking Hi Woodstock,
Sad to say you are not the first to complain here about it 'not being a good place to vent.' I both agree and disagree. You see, when you vent, it is because you have encountered a problem, some sort of a frustrating situation. Sometimes we can't see "the forest for the trees" as they say. Sometimes another person who has been in your shoes can offer something of value, sometimes not. It is always up to you what to take as valuable advice, and what to discard as inapplicable in your case.
If you take the comments too much as "criticism" you are bound to get hurt. It is important to remember that all criticism does not come from ill will. For the most part I would say that NO criticism here from a fellow caregiver comes from ill will.
Those who offer advice cannot control much how their commentary is taken, only how it is given, and not everyone is all that skillful that their desire to help comes through clearly.
All of usenet is like this. Newbies in almost every newsgroup (I frequent a couple of them) are told to "grow a thicker skin," and it is a very, very hard thing to do. When we speak from our hearts about problems we encounter in areas close to our lives, and someone blows us off as though it was nothing, or says something that strikes at the heart, it can hurt a lot. Believe me I know. I have been on the receiving end many times.
Of course we can simply go away (or just lurk) and lose the value of communication with others, both good and bad, and to my way of thinking that is not such a good deal.
My advice to you is this; don't take offense unless you are totally sure offense was being given. Of course, the written word comes across without a smile, without a soft tone of voice, and someone who is thinking they are just being concise, often appears to be curt. Give the benefit of the doubt.
Believe me, we are all on YOUR side here. Hey, if someone trashes you I personally will defend you. If I am not defending you, then maybe no one was giving offense.
You may be oversensitized because you are stressed by the whole situation, and who can blame you?
Don't get offended and go away. If you do, you may lose advice or information or insights that came the hard way to others.
(((((((( hug )))))))))
(just in case you needed one :-)
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Tumbleweed - 15 Sep 2006 22:56 GMT wot she said.
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
|
|
|