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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / August 2006

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Help with "Physical" Problem

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David - 22 Aug 2006 23:47 GMT
Perhaps this is off-topic, but here goes...

My Dad seems to be in the early stages of Alzheimer's with mostly short-term
memory loss at this time. Maybe we'll know more when we get the PET scan
results this Thursday. He also suffers from long-term depression and a
myriad of physical ailments. A most nagging problem is regular constipation,
although I don't know that he is really constipated as it comes on so
regularly that I could almost set my watch by it.  When the urge hits he
drinks prune juice, takes a stool softener and frequently takes something
more powerful like magnesium citrate. After taking all the laxatives he has
diarrhea. This is a nightly ritual (over a year now) that is wearing on him
and me.

He eats very, very poorly - mostly milkshakes and candy bars; otherwise, he
eats practically nothing . He takes a diuretic. He doesn't drink enough
water despite my repeated insistence. He won't eat fibrous foods and won't
take a fiber supplement as he says it makes him more constipated. His
gastroenterologist (who I'm not impressed with) wants to do a colonoscopy
but THAT is going to be a MAJOR ordeal. He was diagnosed with Irritable
Bowel Syndrome some years ago.

Any ideas? Any help?

Thanks,

David
Dana Carpender - 23 Aug 2006 00:05 GMT
> Perhaps this is off-topic, but here goes...
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Any ideas? Any help?

Who makes his milkshakes?  Could you get one of the new flavorless,
non-gloppy fiber supplements and add it to all his shakes?

Dana
David - 23 Aug 2006 00:36 GMT
Thanks so much for the reply. You've got a good idea! I can get that done.

David

> Who makes his milkshakes?  Could you get one of the new flavorless,
> non-gloppy fiber supplements and add it to all his shakes?
>
> Dana
Dana Carpender - 23 Aug 2006 01:27 GMT
> Thanks so much for the reply. You've got a good idea! I can get that done.

Cool.  Take Evelyn's point, though, and make sure he gets enough fluids.

Dana
Evelyn Ruut - 23 Aug 2006 01:28 GMT
Don't forget that if he doesn't drink enough liquids, the fiber can actually
constipate him more.   If you read the labels on the fiber supplements, they
give a specific amount of liquid that must be taken with a specific amount
of the supplement.   This will insure that they work the way they are
supposed to.

Evelyn

> Thanks so much for the reply. You've got a good idea! I can get that done.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> Dana
A R Pickett - 23 Aug 2006 14:09 GMT
"Dana Carpender" wrote -

> > Perhaps this is off-topic, but here goes...
> >
> > My Dad seems to be in the early stages of Alzheimer's with mostly short-term
> > memory loss at this time.

partial snip

> > He eats very, very poorly - mostly milkshakes and candy bars; otherwise, he
> > eats practically nothing .

Remainder snipped

> Who makes his milkshakes?  Could you get one of the new flavorless,
> non-gloppy fiber supplements and add it to all his shakes?
>
> Dana

I had the same question as Dana.

Who provides milkshakes and candy bars?  I realize that he might still be
capable of getting himself to a store and shopping for inappropriate foods,
but there are some end arounds you might try.

Fresh fruit, yogurt, a little orange juice whipped up in a blender produces
a pleasant tasting "milkshake" and some fruits would still taste OK with
some cocoa powder added to the mix as well.  Adding some chipped ice would
bump up his water intake.

Juice bars ("Jamba Juice" is my local favorite) put all kinds of additives
into their stuff - extra fiber, extra vitamins, etc.  You could try
borrowing a page from their book and investigate what kind of powdered
supplements are available to add to the "milkshake"  I'll bet the local
health foods or GNC could give you pointers here.

And on the candy bar front - supermarkets now carry all kinds of nutrition
"bars"  I never pay too much attention, but I believe they are displayed
with sports snacks and/or in the pharmacy area.  And as I'm writing this, I
recall products like "Ensure" which look and taste like milkshakes but have
a good nutritional balance.

HTH

Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Remove lower case "e" to respond

Dana Carpender - 23 Aug 2006 17:37 GMT
> "Dana Carpender" wrote -
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> a pleasant tasting "milkshake" and some fruits would still taste OK with
> some cocoa powder added to the mix as well.

True!  Chocolate-raspberry is wonderful, and raspberries are one of the
highest fiber fruits.

  Adding some chipped ice would
> bump up his water intake.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> supplements are available to add to the "milkshake"  I'll bet the local
> health foods or GNC could give you pointers here.

Designer Whey protein powder in French vanilla blends well with just
about everything, and is wonderful.

> And on the candy bar front - supermarkets now carry all kinds of nutrition
> "bars"  I never pay too much attention, but I believe they are displayed
> with sports snacks and/or in the pharmacy area.  And as I'm writing this, I
> recall products like "Ensure" which look and taste like milkshakes but have
> a good nutritional balance.

Sorry, I have to object to Ensure.  It's not a lot better than drinking
a regular milkshake and swallowing a vitamin pill.  The stuff is
seriously high in sugar and bad fats.

Oh, and for the OP -- would your dad consider eating pancakes?  If so, I
 can give you a recipe for flax-based pancakes that taste great (no
weird, off, health-foody flavor) and are loaded with fiber, protein, and
healthy fats.

Dana
Evelyn Ruut - 23 Aug 2006 00:10 GMT
> Perhaps this is off-topic, but here goes...
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> David

Hi David,

Fiber supplements actually CAN be extremely constipating if one does not
drink enough fluids.   I knew a man who had that problem.   If you drink
enough liquid the fiber soaks it up and works the opposite way, the way it
is supposed to.

For some odd reason it is very hard to get elderly people to drink water.
My father refuses to drink water, and my mother in law refused to drink
water too.   They fail to realize that their sensation of thirst seems to
decline some as they age.   My mother in law would argue with me and tell me
she wasn't thirsty, but I knew she wasn't consuming enough water.   Gosh, I
hope I never get that stubborn or that foolish.

About the colonoscopy.... Many people have come to the conclusion that if a
person has been diagnosed with something like alzheimers disease already,
and knowing the tendency for sedation to set them back a great deal, they
will choose to simply forego such procedures, unless they are life and death
necessary.   It is well documented that many people with alzheimers who have
had to be anesthetized for some emergency surgery or something, often never
come back to the degree of cognition they had beforehand.

If I were you, I'd move ahead with the scan and any other diagnostics you
can, to get a clear picture on what is causing the memory loss problem,
before you deal with anything else.   Don't forget that there are actually
certain reversible causes of memory loss, and only full and proper testing
will reveal them.   If it does turn out to be alzheimers, then that is a
different situation.   He should get checked for thyroid problems and for
Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus to rule them out.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

David - 23 Aug 2006 01:27 GMT
Evelyn,

Thanks so very much for the reply. This caregiver business is just about
more than I can endure. You seem to be very insightful as to elderly
problems and I sure could use some insight as I can't figure them out.

Dad is under the care of  a geriatric psychiatrist. He has some dementia, he
has depression (over 8 years with no effective treatment so far), plus grief
with the death of Mom about 14 months ago. Thus far Dad has had an MRI which
was negative, and a cognitive test that indicated some dementia. The
psychiatrist told me that he suspects Alzheimer's. He had a PET scan last
month and we see the psychiatrist later this week to review the results. I
shall bring up thyroid problems and Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus which I'd
never heard of before.

As to the colonoscopy, I had not considered the affects of anesthesia. The
main reason to avoid the procedure is that the preparation will be nearly
impossible given his physical and mental state. I can envision having to go
through the whole process two or three times just to get one reading. Also I
have little confidence in the gastroenterologist quack, but in this rural
area he/she is the only game in town without traveling over 60 miles.

David

> Hi David,
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> different situation.   He should get checked for thyroid problems and for
> Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus to rule them out.
Evelyn Ruut - 23 Aug 2006 01:51 GMT
> Evelyn,
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> David

Dear David,

You definitely have my empathy.   I took care of my mother in law for a bit
over 3 years before we finally had to place her in a local nursing home.
We were two of us, and both of us were totally burnt out and exhausted, even
with daycare, a wonderful granny-sitter, and a local support group.

It was the most difficult thing I could have imagined, but it was also very
rewarding.   My mother in law had a good life for the last years of her
life.   She felt loved and protected and cared for, and her quality of life
in general improved a great deal over staying alone in her home.   I feel
that I did the right thing for her, and my husband can rest easy with his
memories now that she is gone, knowing that.

Hang in there and don't lose heart.   Your father took care of you when you
were young and helpless, and now you are returning the favor in his old age.
It can be a very valuable lesson in life, even if it is difficult and
exhausting.

This newsgroup is an incredibly valuable resource.   Look also for a local
support group for caregivers.   See if it is possible to find an adult
daycare center so that your dad is stimulated and safe if you need to work
while taking care of him.   Line up some trustworthy people so that you can
get out once in a while.  It can save your sanity and be ultimately kinder
to your dad.

Ask questions here.... don't worry, everyone who posts here has been through
this disease with a loved one, and collectively there is a lot of knowledge.
We are a very caring bunch around here :-)

Bookmark this website and read there often.

http://www.muggsmulcher.com/kstuff/a.s.a/intro.htm

There are some good books out there about caregiving.   Look into getting a
copy of  "The 36 hour day" as it contains lots of valuable information.   It
is available in paperback, and inexpensive.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 23 Aug 2006 17:39 GMT
> As to the colonoscopy, I had not considered the affects of anesthesia. The
> main reason to avoid the procedure is that the preparation will be nearly
> impossible given his physical and mental state. I can envision having to go
> through the whole process two or three times just to get one reading. Also I
> have little confidence in the gastroenterologist quack, but in this rural
> area he/she is the only game in town without traveling over 60 miles.

Mary responds:

The anesthesia is very likely to knock him for a shocking loop. My MIL
broke a hip in early AD and required a surgical repair. At the time,
she'd been very high functioning and hadn't yet been diagnosed. She was
a little forgetful, but living alone very competently, driving, doing
her shopping, cooking and cleaning, etc. When she woke up from the
anesthesia and in the days and weeks that followed. Hoo-boy. She was
loopy to the point that the hospital dispatched a social worker who
told us she should immediately be placed in care, she couldn't go home
and we were in deep deep denial and fibbing that she'd been pretty good
before the hip break. If you haven't seen this for yourself, you'd find
it hard to believe. She did come back a fair ways, but it took weeks
and weeks, and she was never as sharp as she'd been before the surgery.

When you talk about the medications and dietary stuff your dad is up
to, the smartest move is probably to talk to the doctor about getting
him off the majority of the meds he's taking i.e. does he need the
diuretic, particularly if he isn't taking in enough fluids as it is? If
he's regular, should he be taking all those softeners and laxatives? It
sounds less like a physical problem, and more like a dietary problem,
compounded by abuse of laxatives etc.

I'm thinking a lot of what is going on could be better (less
stressfully and more healthily) addressed with some dietary changes -
more fluids...which also helps the bowel issues, and more fiber (even
if you have to sneak it into other foods, which is quite do-able).

Would he listen to the doctor as an authority figure? Could you get the
doctor to write out some orders about diet so if your dad forgets what
the doctor said, you can show him?

My MIL had irritable bowel syndrome, but we really think her problems
were related to undiagnosed allergies or more likely, celiac disease.
However, she wasn't taking all the stuff your dad was into, and her
diet was better. She took Questran and it seemed to help with her
tendency to diarrhea.

M
Beth Cole - 23 Aug 2006 17:56 GMT
> As to the colonoscopy, I had not considered the affects of anesthesia. The
> main reason to avoid the procedure is that the preparation will be nearly
> impossible given his physical and mental state. I can envision having to go
> through the whole process two or three times just to get one reading. Also I
> have little confidence in the gastroenterologist quack, but in this rural
> area he/she is the only game in town without traveling over 60 miles.

One of the peculiarities of colonoscopies and edoscopies is that they
are not done under full anesthesia.  They require conscious sedation,
because they require the patient to be able to follow a few instructions
about swallowing or relaxing or tensing at certain moments.  The
sedation is designed to make the patient unaware that they are following
those instructions, as well as blocking out any discomfort.  The most
common CS med used is Versed, which also causes memories that were made
during the procedure to not be retained.

Having had an endoscopy, and being pretty much in full possession of my
faculties, I would have serious reservations about having an Alzheimer's
patient undergo CS.  I found the experience disorienting, to say the
least.  I can't imagine the reaction of someone with a significantly
diminished mental capacity.

Beth

Signature

Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain

Tumbleweed - 23 Aug 2006 07:50 GMT
> Perhaps this is off-topic, but here goes...
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> David

Got to agree with Evelyn, general anesthesia is likely to give him a serious
setback.

You dont say how old your dad is , but consider what you would do if the
colonoscopy found something. Would he be fit enough for a major op, which
would involve another general anesthetic, and thus would set him back again?

If there is no actual indication of of cancer or something major like that,
then a colonoscopy seems to me not worth risking the side effects of
anesthesia , and if there is an indication, is he fit enough for a major op
and would the chances of a cure be worth the likely serious setback in
mental capabilities. I'm not saying the answer to these is a foregone
conclusion, just that you should consider them before proceeeding.

have you tried moderating his 'self treatment' so that he doesnt take all 3
'cures' to see if one or two of them will work without such drastic effects?

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

David - 24 Aug 2006 01:32 GMT
Thank you all for the many suggestions. I shall try to implement some. I
think if I could just get him to drink more water and eat better I'd be half
way home. My motto for him would be, "If it ain't sweet, he won't eat." He
will eat a limited amount of fresh fruits.

I shall attempt to answer some questions that were asked:

Dad is 79 years old.

He takes about four drugs for congestive heart failure, including a
diuretic. He can't do without the diuretic! There's also a pill for
prostate, one for thyroid, one for cholesterol, one for bi-polar (a
comparatively recent addition), plus Lorazapam and a sleeping pill. He is a
regular walking pharmacy!

He has a bad knee but refuses to have knee replacement. Has carpal tunnel
due to using a walker because of the bad knee. Wears a urinary catheter
because he can't urinate without it, but after several tests the doctors can
find no physiological reason why. The catheter business is the urinary
analogy to his constipation problem. One urologist took me aside and said,
"Your Father badly needs psychological help."

He has depression, chronic I'd say, but every anti-depressant tried thus
far, about six I'd guess, has some bad side effects. If he were in a
generally better condition perhaps he could deal with the side affects, but
as things stand.

My very good neighbor (thank God for good neighbors!!!!) gets him a
milkshake on weekdays while I do the job on weekends. I hope to get some
daycare soon so perhaps we can tweak his eats some.

And an answer to what wasn't asked: I'm forty-something, have a full-time
job, live with Dad, and use about all my personal leave taking care of him.
I've a useless brother who promises help but delivers ZIP.

David
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 24 Aug 2006 02:09 GMT
Dave, thought you would be interested in this article. There is no
doubt that his poor diet and lack of fluids could contribute not just
to health problems, but to cognitive issues.

http://www.grandtimes.com/water.html

M
Elaine - 24 Aug 2006 20:32 GMT
David this is my first post and have been "lurking" lately trying to find
answers to some problems with my Mom, stage 7. She has a constipation
problem also from the meds. The RN hospice nurse recommended to form "balls"
with regular Vaseline about the size of you little finger nail, roll them in
sugar and put in the freezer. Take about 4-5 follow with a warm glass of
water. This is suppose to help lubricate the system naturally and see gentle
results within a few hours. We have not tried this ourselves but I found it
very interesting and thought it might help your dad. We are currently using
stool softeners 3 times a day and it has helped kept her regular.

Elaine in Ga

> Perhaps this is off-topic, but here goes...
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> David
David - 26 Aug 2006 00:58 GMT
Elaine,

I'm not a medical professional, but I would think that Vaseline could be
toxic.  Still, if an RN recommended it maybe it's OK. Right now I'm trying
to give him a couple of stool softeners before the onset of the
constipation.

David

> David this is my first post and have been "lurking" lately trying to find
> answers to some problems with my Mom, stage 7. She has a constipation
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Elaine in Ga
Evelyn Ruut - 26 Aug 2006 01:10 GMT
> Elaine,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> David

David, I don't think it is toxic, but if I were you I'd stick with the stool
softeners.   They are sold for that purpose, especially the ones that
contain a mild laxative too.    Here in the USA they are called Peri-Colace
(don't know exactly what country you are in)

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

>> David this is my first post and have been "lurking" lately trying to find
>> answers to some problems with my Mom, stage 7. She has a constipation
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> Elaine in Ga
Dana Carpender - 26 Aug 2006 01:32 GMT
>>Elaine,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> David, I don't think it is toxic, but if I were you I'd stick with the stool
> softeners.  

RE Vaseline:  My dad worked with the head of Cheseborough-Ponds for
years.  He was told that the founder of the company, the guy who first
put petroleum jelly in a jar, called it "Vaseline", and sold it for
cosmetic use, ate a spoonful a day of the stuff, and lived well into his
90s.  No word about his bowel function.

Do with this information what you will.

Dana
Evelyn Ruut - 26 Aug 2006 01:46 GMT
>>>Elaine,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Dana

Well you can't argue with success :-)

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Dennis P. Harris - 26 Aug 2006 03:42 GMT
> RE Vaseline:  My dad worked with the head of Cheseborough-Ponds for
> years.  He was told that the founder of the company, the guy who first
> put petroleum jelly in a jar, called it "Vaseline", and sold it for
> cosmetic use, ate a spoonful a day of the stuff, and lived well into his
> 90s.  No word about his bowel function.

we used to give it to cats when they had hairballs, so they could
pass 'em.  just put it on the roof of their mouth and they lick
it off and swallow it.
 
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