Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / August 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

"The Truth About the Drug Companies" - long and possibly off-topic

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Alan Meyer - 11 Aug 2006 03:03 GMT
I have just finished a book called _The Truth About the Drug
Companies_ by Dr. Marcia Angell, former executive editor of the
New England Journal of Medicine.

This book made me very angry.  What follows may appear to be an
off-topic rant to some of you.  I personally think it's on topic
for all people suffering with life threatening diseases.
However, if you think this is off-topic, please do not read on.

The facts that Dr. Angell presents are pretty disturbing.  In
2002, the top 10 American drug companies made more profit than
all of the remaining 490 companies in the Fortune 500 put
together.

By their own accounts, the drug companies spend far more money on
marketing than on research.  But if you look at their accounts,
you find that even a great part of the money they include in the
category of "research" is really marketing.

Also in 2002, the last year for which Dr. Angell had full data,
78 new drugs were approved by the FDA.  Of them, only 7 were "new
molecules" that represented a significant improvement over
previous treatments.  Not one of the seven was developed by a
drug company.

There are now 88,000 drug company salespeople in the United
States.  According to Google, there are now 301,000 physicians.
That means that a full time salesperson is effectively dedicated
to every 3.4 physicians.

Drug companies are not investing much in new drugs.  Their main
thrust is in what Angell calls "me-too" drugs.  After the first
statin drug became a best seller, five more statins were
developed by competing companies.  Most are small variations on
the original molecule.  Not one has demonstrated greater
effectiveness than any other.

After Viagra became a blockbuster drug, Cialis and Levitra were
developed.  As with the statins, no clinical trials have ever
been conducted to prove that one of these drugs is better than
the others.  One might be better, but we don't know, and don't
know which.  For all we know, the first one developed could be
the best.

Similar "me-too" drugs have been developed for selective
serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, etc.)
heartburn, blood pressure, and other conditions.  All of these
drugs have been developed and marketed at huge expense, but with
no evidence presented that any of the me-too drugs are more
effective than any others.

More drugs are developed for long term ills, like high cholesterol,
depression, and heartburn than for cancer, heart attack, and
other more acute killers.  Profits are better with patients who
don't die off or get better and stop buying.

The drug companies claim that we need the me-too drugs because
some people respond to some better than others.  But no clinical
trial has ever demonstrated that.  It is a claim based on, at
best, anecdotal evidence.  At worst, it is simply a made up claim
that serves the interest of the companies but has no basis at all
in fact.

With all of the me-too drugs, one might think that prices would
come down.  Competition is supposed to do that, isn't it?  But
the drug companies don't compete on price.  Even though Viagra is
sold for many, many, many times the cost of manufacturing, and
even though all R&D costs were recovered years ago, the cost of
Viagra, Cialis and Levitra are all pegged at the original Viagra
cost.  We still pay top prices.  The same is true for statins,
SSRI's, and other high profile blockbuster drugs.

The government is in collusion with the companies in all of this
profiteering.

There is now more than one drug company lobbyist in Washington
for each and every Senator and Congressman.  Drug company
contributions to the politicians are among the biggest in the
country.

In return for these bribes, the drug companies have won the
following concessions in the last 25 years:

   NIH funded research can be patented and owned by drug
   companies.  Our tax dollars develop drugs but we don't own
   them.

   Patent protection can be set at 20 years and extended by a
   variety of horrible schemes, such as patenting trivial
   variations on the drug or its usage or packaging, by testing
   in children (PMS drugs are tested in children because the
   government allows an extra 6 months of patent protection if
   the trials are done with children), and by tying up generic
   drug makers in court.

   It is illegal to import drugs from Canada, even though there
   have been more cases of drug counterfeiting in the U.S.
   (where profits from counterfeiting are much higher) than in
   Canada.

   The Medicare Drug Benefit boondoggle makes it illegal for
   Medicare to pay less than full retail price for drugs, even
   though all of the other big purchasers (including the VA) pay
   much less.

   FDA drug approvals, from being slower than other countries,
   have now become the fastest in the world, compromising safety
   in a number of high profile documented cases.

   Direct to consumer advertising, illegal in every other
   advanced country, has become commonplace in the U.S.

   Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and
   other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are
   extraordinarily common in the U.S., with little or no
   attempts by government to stop them.

Dr. Angell offers many ways to curb the power of the companies
and make drugs more affordable and research more productive.  One
of those ways is an incredibly simple plan for making things
better.  Just this one change would make a huge difference in the
cost of drugs and the benefits of research.

   She proposes that a drug only be approved for sale if a valid
   clinical trial demonstrates that it is more effective than
   the current treatments.

Right now, a company need only demonstrate that its drug is
better than a placebo.  It need not demonstrate that it's better
than other drugs.  It can be worse.  That's fine.  No problem.
It can be worse than standard over the counter medications like
aspirin or ibuprofen or Tylenol or Tums, and have far more
serious side effects.  But if it is better than a placebo and
doesn't kill people, it will be approved and can be marketed
as the next wonder drug.

If we make that illegal, all of the huge marketing, patent
protection and, yes, even research costs for developing me-too
drugs will go away.  All of the recruiting for clinical trials
for me-too drugs will go away and the small pool of available
trials patients can be steered into real trials.  If a drug is
demonstrated as better than other drugs, it won't need marketing
or advertising.  Doctors will hear about it and prescribe it - as
they did for the revolutionary cancer drug Gleevec, which was
never promoted by the company that secured the rights to it (it
was developed, of course, by a scientist named Goldwasser in
Chicago who never made, or asked for, a penny out of it.)

I urge everyone to go down to your public library or book store
and take a look at _The Truth About Drug Companies_.  Then
contact your congressional representatives and demand change.

   Alan
Torpedo - 11 Aug 2006 03:30 GMT
Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and
   other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are
   extraordinarily common in the U.S., with little or no
   attempts by government to stop them.

My BIL is GP, with a pharmacy degree...who has gone on to specialize in
Cardiology at the Ottawa Heart Institute.  He's told us about all the perks
he gets from the drug companies.  Conferences held in hot, sunny
places...with chartered planes, free accomodations...free meals...and all
the free booze, and drug samples you can carry....Oh....and you can bring
your wife, free of charge, too...and these take place sometimes 3 or 4 times
a year!

It's nothing short of horrendous.

>I have just finished a book called _The Truth About the Drug
> Companies_ by Dr. Marcia Angell, former executive editor of the
[quoted text clipped - 149 lines]
>
>    Alan
Steph - 11 Aug 2006 05:04 GMT
> Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and
>    other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> It's nothing short of horrendous.

I assume he's not a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons
of Canada, because accepting commercial hospitality like that is entirely
contrary to the College ethical code. I suspect it's also contrary to the
code of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario
Steph - 11 Aug 2006 06:05 GMT
>> Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and
>>    other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> contrary to the College ethical code. I suspect it's also contrary to the
> code of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario

And you might want to get him to look at
http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/cme/mainpro/maintenance%20of%20proficiency/polic
y%20summaries/default.asp?s=1


Especially sections 17-24
Torpedo - 11 Aug 2006 11:22 GMT
The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there
doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter
flights.....it's just the way business is conducted when dealing with
pharmaceutical companies.

What concerns me more is the influence these pharmaceutical companies have
with our Governments. They can wine and dine the Doctors all they like but
the bottom line is that these Doctors can't prescribe it if the Government
doesn't approve it for sale to the public....

I think that if we REALLY knew the extent to which funding, research and
approval of new drugs was dependant upon political alliances....it'd scare
the heck out of all of us.

>>> Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and
>>>    other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Especially sections 17-24
Alan Meyer - 11 Aug 2006 18:26 GMT
> The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there doesn't seem to be
> much of a problem filling the seats on these charter flights.....it's just the way
> business is conducted when dealing with pharmaceutical companies.

Frightening isn't it?

Just think, the doctor that you trust to save your life has no
problem accepting bribes from drug companies to prescribe
their drugs.

"...it's just the way business is conducted..."

> What concerns me more is the influence these pharmaceutical companies have with our
> Governments. They can wine and dine the Doctors all they like but the bottom line is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think that if we REALLY knew the extent to which funding, research and approval of new
> drugs was dependant upon political alliances....it'd scare the heck out of all of us.

I agree that we need the government to step in and regulate an
industry that can't possibly regulate itself.  One of the things I
really liked about Dr. Angell's analysis of our options was that
she found a single thing we could do that would go far towards
solving the problem - require new drugs to demonstrate that they
are better than existing drugs, in order to gain approval.

At the very, very least, I should think we should require that
new drugs are not worse than existing drugs.  Too often
new drugs are introduced that do not do as good a job as
drugs that have been used for years.  But doctors and patients
are both fooled into believing that the "latest and greatest" must
be better than that old stuff the pharmacy has been selling for
years.

   Alan
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 21:10 GMT
>> The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there
>> doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> solving the problem - require new drugs to demonstrate that they
> are better than existing drugs, in order to gain approval.

For values of 'better' that are defined by whom?
Suppose they are 1/2 the price but slightly less effective? Or 1/10th the
price but with an extra side effect for a minority? Or have less side
effects for some people but more for others? Or have a quicker cure rate for
some but slightly more side effects for others?  etc etc.

"There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible, and
wrong".   H. L. Mencken

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Alan Meyer - 11 Aug 2006 22:56 GMT
> ...
> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom?
> Suppose they are 1/2 the price but slightly less effective? Or 1/10th the price but with
> an extra side effect for a minority? Or have less side effects for some people but more
> for others? Or have a quicker cure rate for some but slightly more side effects for
> others?  etc etc.

Valid questions.

However, except for the price questions, we have no
data to answer them.  It is possible that Lipitor is slightly
less effective than Crestor.  Or that Crestor has an extra
side effect compared to some other cholesterol drug.

But we can't find that out.  It might be that one of the drugs
really does work better for you than the other, but no clinical
trials are done to find out if one works better than another,
or if one works better for a specific population than another
for the simple reason that the drug companies don't run
trials to compare their drugs with other drugs.  They only
run trials comparing their drugs with placebo.  Any other
kind of trial is dangerous for them because it can turn out
wrong - killing their shot at marketing.

Even if you try two drugs yourself, you can't be sure that
one works better than another.  It often happens that the
standard dose of one drug is twice as much as the standard
dose of another - with more potency and more side effects.
By increasing your dose of the first drug you might have
done better than you did with the second, even though
your own experience with the "standard" dose was better
with the second.

With no scientific data to rely on, it's impossible to
determine which drug is best for you.  With six me-too drugs
to choose from, if they really are different, you have only a
17% chance (1/6) of getting the one that is best for you.

Of course you can trust your doctor to tell you which is best,
but he hasn't done any trials either, and you might want to
count the drug company salesmen going into and out of
his office each day before

> "There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible, and wrong".   H.
> L. Mencken

Indeed.

Did he know about Aricept?

   Alan
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 12:55 GMT
>> ...
>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> less effective than Crestor.  Or that Crestor has an extra
> side effect compared to some other cholesterol drug.

So maybe a better simple (and also wrong?) solution would be that all drugs
have to be tested against exuisting cures..except that would put the price
up...maybe beyond the point its worth doing...so we wouldnt get any new
drugs for existing conditions.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Alan Meyer - 12 Aug 2006 16:57 GMT
>>> ...
>>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> tested against exuisting cures..except that would put the price up...maybe beyond the
> point its worth doing...so we wouldnt get any new drugs for existing conditions.

I'm not an expert on all this.  Mostly I'm just quoting from an
expert (Marcia Angell).

My non-expert speculation is that, yes, all drugs should be tested
against existing cures.

That won't keep us from getting new drugs for existing conditions.
It just means that any new drugs that are approved will be, in at
least some way, better than existing drugs for those conditions.

A drug company wouldn't have to prove that their new drug is better
in every case.  But they would at least have to prove that there is
some population of patients for which their drug is better.  If
they can't do that, then what good is their drug?

A massive study was conducted by NIH of drugs to reduce blood
pressure (see http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/new/press/02-12-17.htm)

Three different categories of new drugs were tested, and the old
standard diuretic drugs were tested.  It turned out, to everyone's
surprise, none of the newer drugs was as effective as the old,
cheap diuretics at reducing blood pressure and preventing death
by heart attack.  Patients on the new drugs had significantly higher
risk of stroke, heart failure, angina, and other problems.

And yet the percentage of patients taking diuretics had greatly
declined over the last 20 years as doctors, convinced one way or
another by the drug company marketing, began prescribing the
newer drugs instead.

24 million Americans take these drugs.

   Alan
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 20:30 GMT
>>>> ...
>>>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom?
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> some population of patients for which their drug is better.  If
> they can't do that, then what good is their drug?

It might be very good for that pop of patients, but the costs of the trial
might outweigh the risk it wont be multiplied by the cost of the trials. So
you might not get the drug.

> A massive study was conducted by NIH of drugs to reduce blood
> pressure (see http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/new/press/02-12-17.htm)
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>    Alan
...and your point is? Ah, I see, the point is that a massive, expensive
trial was needed to find this out. Which wouldn't have been feasible (I
guess) for any of the individual companies making the new drug to undertake
ny themsleves. In this case the old drug came out best *for the population
at large* though I'm willing to bet that there are sub segments for whom the
new drugs are better, but I dont see any resaon to draw a general conclusion
that therefore no new drugs will be better.

Of course, this is somewhat of a special case, because we are looking at
drugs given to treat a general condition, e.g. high blood pressure, that
leads on, in general , to a set of further problems when compared
statistically, though you cant say in any one case 'this will cure you' or
'thyouw ill definitely get these problems later on if you dont take the
drug.  This is as compared to a specific immediate problem, say Alzheimer's
or cancer for which you arent into statistics in the same way, eg in these
cases you have an illness _now_ not a condition that _might_ lead to an
illness later. In these latter cases, say Az, you definitely _will_ see
trials conducted versus existing treatments rather than a placebo, for two
reasons, (1) its not ethical to remove a known treatment in place of one
that may have no effect at all, and (2), you wouldn't get many takers for
the new drug .."wanna try this, we don't know what it would do..or you could
take this, which is the accepted treatment"'.

Tw
Alan Meyer - 13 Aug 2006 02:24 GMT
>>>>> ...
>>>>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom?
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> segments for whom the new drugs are better, but I dont see any resaon to draw a general
> conclusion that therefore no new drugs will be better.

I'm quite sure that the drug companies pay far more to market
their drugs than NIH paid for this massive trial.

It may be true that the new drugs are better for some subset of the
population.  But what is that subset?  The drug companies never
attempted to find out.

We now do know that, in the average case, the new blood pressure
drugs are worse than the old one.  How many tens of thousands of
people who died of stroke or heart attack on the new drugs might have
had their lives prolonged by the old ones?

I never concluded that no new drugs will be better.  What I want
to do is to re-orient the drug companies to searching for new drugs
that _are_ better instead of trying to develop me-too drugs that
are not better - just have their brand name on them instead of
someone elses - or worse, are not as good.

Instead of having them pour millions into yet another new statin
or another new Viagra, I'd like them to put some of that money
into a new AD drug and new cancer drugs.

> Of course, this is somewhat of a special case, because we are looking at drugs given to
> treat a general condition, e.g. high blood pressure, that leads on, in general , to a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Tw

Tw,

Your point about cancer is right.  The FDA does not allow
cancer drugs to be tested against placebo if there is a standard
treatment that is known to be better than placebo.  I don't believe
that's true for Alzheimer's.  But of course there is no currently
approved drug for AD except the drugs that don't slow the
progress of the disease, only alleviate symptoms for some
people for some period of time.

   Alan
Tumbleweed - 13 Aug 2006 07:13 GMT
.

> Instead of having them pour millions into yet another new statin
> or another new Viagra, I'd like them to put some of that money
> into a new AD drug and new cancer drugs.

Good intentions, but suppose there is no profit in doing that? Who are you
to say the company should be bankrupted? if you dont know there is a profit
in doing that, which you surely dont, you are now directing the company to
spend its money in a way that might bankrupt it.

Lets say that evil pharma company  makes1 billion dollars profit (after
taxes) in 2006. How much of that money should they spend in 2007 developing
a new Az drug? 10%? 50% All of it? SUppose that wasa good year and
previously they'd been losing money, maybe they need that to pay off debts
or develop new drugs before their old ones go out of protection? Should the
new drug be an Az drug? Why not an anti-malarial? Suppose they are
unsuccessful, and they spent 500m (because you directed they should spend
50%) on that and its all wasted because the new Az drug doesnt work? You
just taxed them $500m. Maybe that money would have been better spent
developing a new statin that is, actually, much better than existing ones.
But they decided upfront that the chances it would be werent worth the risk
of failing the new expensive trials you'd have them do.

Why not come clean and say you want a tax on pharma companies (because thats
what this proposal amounts to) which will then be spent on drug development,
which drugs to be decided by a government committee. Once you have taken
that step, then its illogical to say that only pharma companies should be
taxed, just because they happen to make drugs. You should have a drug tax on
all companies, because if you didnt, then making drugs is inherently less
profitable than making anything else and companies would move into other
fields. But we do already have a tax on all companies. So, perhaps to come
clean and make it plain to all whats happening, the government should start
spending money directly on drug development, either starting up its own
pharma companies, or spending the tax money with existing ones, to develop
the drugs it does want.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Alan Meyer - 14 Aug 2006 02:41 GMT
> .
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> directly on drug development, either starting up its own pharma companies, or spending
> the tax money with existing ones, to develop the drugs it does want.

I think that we're getting to the crux of the matter here.  You are
saying that the drug companies are ordinary capitalist enterprises.
Their aim is to make a profit.  They are free to do what they want
to make that profit.

I am saying that they are, but should not be, ordinary capitalist
enterprises.  They should be highly regulated and required to
do many things that are not profitable, or not as profitable, if they
wish to stay in business in the United States.

Every other advanced country does this.

The U.S. does it too, but not as much as I think should be done.

For example, we require drug companies to get FDA approval before
they can sell new drugs.  We require that they perform clinical trials
establishing the safety and efficacy of their drugs - with specific scientific
requirements for what is required and what is not allowed in a trial.
We require them to provide drug labels that list all side effects,
describe the chemicals inside, and warn doctors and patients of
potential problems.  When they advertise on TV (something that
used to be illegal before the Clinton administration changed the law)
they are required to state the adverse side effects in their ads.

These regulations have resulted in a dramatic improvement in the
quality of drugs available to us.

We regulate lots of industries, not just drug companies.  Auto makers
have to conform to government crash safety testing and rules.  They
have to post miles per gallon expectations based on uniform government
testing.  They have to conform to clean air standards.

As a result of these regulations, accident deaths have declined,
and cars are safer, higher mileage, and less polluting.

We apply these kinds of regulations in spite of the protestations of
the industries involved because there is a clear public benefit to them.
We say to the industries - this is a cost of doing business in the U.S.
You may not make money by hurting people or by failing to protect
people when known protections are available.

Where there is no such public interest, we don't regulate.  The software
industry, for example, is free to write software any way they chose.
Which is fine.   Software doesn't pollute or kill people and is not sold
as life saving medication.

It seems to me that the drug companies are among those companies
with the very greatest need for regulation in the public interest.  I don't
think for one minute that the companies will be driven out of business,
or that prices will rise, or that innovation will cease because of such
regulation.  On the contrary, I think prices will fall and innovation will
increase.  It is possible that some companies will go out of business,
but I have no doubt that better ones will take their place.   Lots of
drug companies have gone out of business in the unregulated
market too.  But there is a ton of money to be made in developing
new, effective drugs.  Regulation won't change that.

    Alan
Tumbleweed - 14 Aug 2006 18:15 GMT
> I think that we're getting to the crux of the matter here.  You are
> saying that the drug companies are ordinary capitalist enterprises.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Every other advanced country does this.

AFAIK thats not true, for example, in Europe, drug companies are free to
develop whatever drugs they wish. They arent directed to develop particular
drugs, or, AFAIK (again) have to show that a drug that is for condition 'X'
is 'better' (whatever that means) than other drugs for condition 'X'.

Why also do you thibk they should be "required to do many things that are
not profitable" whereas other companies arent? If the governments want a
drug against 'X' developed, why dont they put it out to tender, using the
tax payers money? MOre efficient and direct than the 'beating about the
bush' method of making them develop drugs that are 'better'. For example,
they might decide to spend their money developing a better wart drug, or a
better treatment for haemmaroids (sp?), going through all the hoops you care
to mention, but thats not what you want is it, you want them to develop
better drugs for specific conditions. Why not just cut to the chase. That
might work, it worked when you put a man on the moon, or it might be a
complete failure, like 'Concordski'.

> The U.S. does it too, but not as much as I think should be done.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Where there is no such public interest, we don't regulate.  The software
> industry, for example, is free to write software any way they chose.

Actually, thats not true at all. For example, its illegal for you to attempt
to circumvent the region coding on a DVD , even though the only point of
that is to make money for the media industries, there is no technical
interest. And if you had a rogue program on your PC put there, for example
by Sony, it would be illegal for you to write a program that attempted to
find out what it was doing.

> Which is fine.   Software doesn't pollute or kill people and is not sold
> as life saving medication.

Well, software most certainly does kill people, what do you think guides all
those smart bombs and fighter planes etc. indeed the US government
classifies some algorithms as 'weapons' and restricts their export.

> It seems to me that the drug companies are among those companies
> with the very greatest need for regulation in the public interest.  I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>     Alan
All these regulations are for safety though, not to get specific new drugs
developed. But a new effective wart drug isnt what you want is it? So, why
hesitate at just these new rules, why not just nationalise them and be done
with the pretence?  After all, if it really was going to be profitable to
develop, say a drug for Az that _really_ worked, dont you think they would
be doing that? In fact, I see trial reports all the time about this and that
drug trial going on, so maybe its not just as easy as passing a simple rule.
What that _might_ do, is prevent a company trying to make a new Az drug in
case its only roughly the same as we have, wehreas maybe they think there
isa higher chance the new wart cure will be a big success. ...which might
mean that, for example the combination of aricepta nd memantine together
wouldnt have taken place, since memantine wouldnt have got approval.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Alan Meyer - 15 Aug 2006 05:17 GMT
>> I think that we're getting to the crux of the matter here.  You are
>> saying that the drug companies are ordinary capitalist enterprises.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> (again) have to show that a drug that is for condition 'X' is 'better' (whatever that
> means) than other drugs for condition 'X'.

I haven't advocating forcing companies to develop particular drugs, though
it's not a bad idea.  What I advocate is that they shouldn't be given FDA
approval for drugs which are not proven even to be as good as, much
less better than, the existing treatments.

A case could be made for "as good as", if there is some population
better served by the new drug.  But in the absence of proof of that
why should the FDA approve them?

> Why also do you thibk they should be "required to do many things that are not
> profitable" whereas other companies arent? If the governments want a drug against 'X'
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> bombs and fighter planes etc. indeed the US government classifies some algorithms as
> 'weapons' and restricts their export.

I had forgotten about the export restrictions on encryption programs,
which were pretty silly and only served to restrict American exports.
I think they've all now been lifted.

I'm not aware of any other export restrictions, though there are
programs owned by the U.S. government that are classified as
secret.

>> It seems to me that the drug companies are among those companies
>> with the very greatest need for regulation in the public interest.  I don't
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> combination of aricepta nd memantine together wouldnt have taken place, since memantine
> wouldnt have got approval.

The argument that the drug companies would be developing
more useful drugs if they could would be more convincing if
it weren't for the fact that the money spent on research is
declining.  Almost all the significant new drugs ("new molecules"
that show improved effects in patients) are now being developed
either with NIH funding (most of them) or at small biotech companies,
not at big drug companies.

I'd also be more sympathetic to the drug companies if I didn't
see all the corruption they engender.  Surely you don't condone
the millions in bribes paid to doctors to prescribe their drugs,
and to congressmen to pass favorable legislation.

Well, as you said in another posting, they've achieved a ceasefire
in the mideast, and we may need to do it too.

It's been an interesting discussion.

Regards,

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 12 Aug 2006 02:03 GMT
> Just think, the doctor that you trust to save your life has no
> problem accepting bribes from drug companies to prescribe
> their drugs.

More like, "the doctor that saved my life."
Steph - 12 Aug 2006 05:11 GMT
> I agree that we need the government to step in and regulate an
> industry that can't possibly regulate itself.  One of the things I
> really liked about Dr. Angell's analysis of our options was that
> she found a single thing we could do that would go far towards
> solving the problem - require new drugs to demonstrate that they
> are better than existing drugs, in order to gain approval.

It's called a clinical trial.

> At the very, very least, I should think we should require that
> new drugs are not worse than existing drugs.  Too often
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>    Alan

Some are, not all
Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 20:02 GMT
> The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there
> doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> approval of new drugs was dependant upon political alliances....it'd scare
> the heck out of all of us.

I'm convinced that quite a lot of the truly horrific nutritional advice
we've gotten over the past 30 years or so -- to avoid eggs, to eat
vegetable oils instead of animal fats, to load up on lots of bread and
pasta -- are designed to sell more drugs.

Dana
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 21:18 GMT
>> The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there
>> doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Dana

"Never use a conspiracy as an excuse when ignorance or stupidity will
suffice"

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 22:35 GMT
>>>The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there
>>>doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> "Never use a conspiracy as an excuse when ignorance or stupidity will
> suffice"

"Follow the money."

Dana
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 09:31 GMT
>>>>The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there
>>>>doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Dana

Touche :-)  But I just tend to go with stupidity, as Dilbery says its the
most powerful natural force.
Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Sue Burnham - 12 Aug 2006 03:03 GMT
> Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and
>     other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> It's nothing short of horrendous.

My husband and I used to  manage a restaurant in this little backwater
village for an absentee owner.   We discovered that our  fill -in staff  had
become adept in  doing Take-out orders ( we weren't a take-out
establishment)  for the Pharma reps certain days of the month.    This
couple pumped out the food and delivered it in any sort of container
available...... to our local Health  Clinic.. charged to an Amex account
for Pfiizer, Novartis, Astra Zeneca, Abbott, Forest.. you name  the
company, it had been done.

WE held  a small local   " food safety"  course one summer, inviting our
local clinic  docs and PA's to emphasize  the  importance of    temperature
control  on  grilled foods and  avoiding  cross-comtamination  from grilled
rare meats  to summer salads  on  seasonal picnics and  BBQ.

They were soo  good, and so specific,  and sooooo helpful.... we invited
them to the restaurant  kitchen to see how  their Take-Out meals, bought by
the drug companies...... needed to be  prepared and packaged for them since
we  "DID NOT  DO TAKE  OUT".

Sorry, you ordered 7  Blackened  Salmon Caesar Salads... you want us to  put
the hot fish on the cold greens,  put the stuff in Saran Wrap and  you'll
get to it sometime..??????? Maybe you are  all set for today, and you'll
save this for tomorrow.... in your  desk drawer?????  Without
refrigeration??

Needless to say,  there was some   infernal internal awareness  raised  in a
big hurry and our local   Community Clinic  no longer accepts free  take-out
meals from drug  company reps.

One needle at a time.   It is a big haystack.

Sue in Maine
David&Joan - 11 Aug 2006 04:51 GMT
But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
health care cost of any nation in the world.
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 08:27 GMT
> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
> health care cost of any nation in the world.

I always find it ironic that Americans, home of capitalism, complain the
loudest about how it works!

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 20:01 GMT
>>But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
>>health care cost of any nation in the world.
>
> I always find it ironic that Americans, home of capitalism, complain the
> loudest about how it works!

"Home of capitalism?"  Right.  We inherited it from the Europeans.

Maybe they've just gotten over it sooner.

Dana
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 21:16 GMT
>>>But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
>>>health care cost of any nation in the world.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Dana

Its the home of capitalism *now*. As George Bush apparently said, "the
French don't even have a word for Entrepreneur".  :-)

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

dave perry - 11 Aug 2006 23:48 GMT
Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan speech where he said there is no word for
"freedom" in the Russion language.  Good grief.
Dave Perry

> >>>But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
> >>>health care cost of any nation in the world.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Steve Jordan - 12 Aug 2006 01:18 GMT
> Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan speech where he said there is no word for
> "freedom" in the Russion language.  Good grief.
>  
Dunno whether that's true or not, as Dave did not post a reference.

Never mind: this thread and its clones have devolved into utter
silliness. I have plonked it, including the crossposts. I have more
interesting and important matters about which to be concerned.

Regards,

Steve J

"I believe it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it
is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better
to know than to be ignorant."
-- H. L. Mencken
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 09:33 GMT
>> Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan speech where he said there is no word for
>> "freedom" in the Russion language.  Good grief.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I have plonked it, including the crossposts. I have more interesting and
> important matters about which to be concerned.

Absolutely, I see a middle east ceasefire has been arranged, well done!

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 20:00 GMT
> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
> health care cost of any nation in the world.

And one of the worst longevity and infant mortality rates.

Dana
Steve Kramer - 12 Aug 2006 02:07 GMT
>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest
>> health care cost of any nation in the world.
>
> And one of the worst longevity and infant mortality rates.

Speaking for those in our newsgroup, we apologize for the incursion into
yours.  Please resist responding into ours; especially with inane
statements.
bj - 12 Aug 2006 02:43 GMT
> Speaking for those in our newsgroup, we apologize for the incursion into
> yours.  Please resist responding into ours; especially with inane
> statements.

Whose is "our" and whose is "yours"?
bj
(posting from a.s.cancer)
Alan Meyer - 12 Aug 2006 17:02 GMT
>> Speaking for those in our newsgroup, we apologize for the incursion into yours.  Please
>> resist responding into ours; especially with inane statements.
>
> Whose is "our" and whose is "yours"?
> bj
> (posting from a.s.cancer)

Sorry bj,

This is my fault, not Steve Kramer's.  I inappropriately posted my
original message in three newsgroups - for which I apologize.

Steve Kramer was responding to the posting as it appeared in
the alt.support.cancer.prostate newsgroup.  He probably didn't
realize that it was crossposted and just hit the reply button.

   Alan
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 12:57 GMT
>>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the
>>> highest health care cost of any nation in the world.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> yours.  Please resist responding into ours; especially with inane
> statements.

Its very nice of you to have done a full survey of all the people in 'your'
newsgroup before responding, perhaps you could mention which one it is just
so we can check you covered everyone.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Evelyn Ruut - 12 Aug 2006 13:43 GMT
>>>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the
>>>> highest health care cost of any nation in the world.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 'your' newsgroup before responding, perhaps you could mention which one it
> is just so we can check you covered everyone.

Bingo!  You got it, Tumbleweed!

Some idiot cross posted from a couple of cancer groups into our alzheimer
group.
Not that any of them noticed, before complaining about it.......

What on earth does cancer of any kind have to do with alzheimers anyway!

(I amended the newsgroup line not to start a flame war among them)
Signature


Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Alan Meyer - 12 Aug 2006 17:08 GMT
> ...
> Some idiot cross posted from a couple of cancer groups into our alzheimer group.

Mea culpa.

I'm sorry Evelyn, Tumbleweed and all others.  I am the idiot
who did the cross posting.  I follow all three groups and
decided to post the same message to each.  I made the
mistake, which I will not repeat, of putting all three groups
on one header line instead of posting separately three times.

Steve Kramer and others whose responses are mixed here
are not responsible for the problem.  I'm sure he just clicked
the reply button, not realizing that the replies went to three
groups.

(Incidentally, Steve is an excellent person - a cancer patient
himself and very helpful to many other people who have cancer.)

I had never cross posted before and so had no first hand
experience of the confusion it creates.  But I know now.

Please accept my apologies.

   Alan
Evelyn Ruut - 12 Aug 2006 17:26 GMT
>> ...
>> Some idiot cross posted from a couple of cancer groups into our alzheimer
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>    Alan

Hi Alan, and sorry I called you an idiot ;-(

I have done the same thing myself in the past, and later realized it works
out better to post separately, because the replies sometimes start flame
wars with all new people and unrelated groups etc.

Alls well though, and sorry again.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Alan Meyer - 13 Aug 2006 02:26 GMT
> Hi Alan, and sorry I called you an idiot ;-(

No need to apologize.  What I did was idiotic.  But I didn't
realize the consequences at the time.

Regards,

   Alan
dave481 - 12 Aug 2006 15:37 GMT
I've got prostate cancer. I've been treated with surgery, drugs, and
radiation. I might live. Probably will live. Thanks to these drugs,
Drs. and radiation. In all honesty I don't know who developed them,
don't care, but , I'm sure they wanted paid for it. My daughter is a
research biologist for a pharmaceutical company in North Carolina.
she's not wealthy, but lives the American dream. She works 60-70 hour
weeks.
I have health insurance. One of the men that get radiation before me,
everyday, also has ADT and surgery. He has no insurance, speaks no
english, has been in this country illegaly since 1956. His daughter is
bilingual, works as a janitor, is legal and brings him everyday. Her
daughter, born here, speaks very little spanish, is a school teacher
and has insurance. He is treated identical to me. Except he got cheaper
suppositories when his butt hurt, I got foam. He has no money, is in
his 70's. Worked on farms and ranches for 50 years at below minimum
wage (housing provided by boss). The next time your in the grocery
store give him thanks because you only spend 17% of you check on food.
Point is, we both got treatment that saved of lives and retained most
quality. His daughter might teach some kid, that will prescibe a
medicine my daughter discovered, that will save a bunch more people. If
my daughter is not paid well, she'll move on and not research
medicines. She studied for years and works hard. One of her
frustrations is the govt restrictions she wastes time on now.
In 2002 drug companies did do well. My elderly retired parents have
stock in Pfiser and Johnson&Johnson. They pay their bills, travel a
little and owe no one. The govt spends no money on them. Since 02 my
mom says the stocks have been up and down.

What I'm trying to say is, in my experience, the American system works,
and works well. It's not an opinion, just what I've seen. That's all I
can verify and comment on. That and I'm grateful for the support of
this group, the drugs, Drs. (two are foreign born and chose this
country) and machines that gave me some years to enjoy.

Thank-you
David

p.s. What is "cross posting?"

> >>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the
> >>> highest health care cost of any nation in the world.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
You smiled, you spoke, and I believed - 13 Aug 2006 03:21 GMT
> I have just finished a book called _The Truth About the Drug
> Companies_ by Dr. Marcia Angell, former executive editor of the
[quoted text clipped - 149 lines]
>
>     Alan

everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and
pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and
treatments to the market.

My brachetherapy cost $30,000.  Insurance, another "evil" capitalist
company paid most of it.

Am I happy with the result?  Compared to the possible alternatives, you bet!

Patent rights & protection thereof is one of basic reasons that the US
is the most innovative country in the world.

j.
Caz - 13 Aug 2006 15:37 GMT
> everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and
> pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and
> treatments to the market.

<snip>

Sorry to disillusion you, but *not* everyone on this group is alive "solely
due to the medical and pharmeceutial (sic) companies doing basic research,
and bringing drugs and treatments to the market".

I don't take *any* drugs. I'm alive, and I'm here.

Over to you.

Caz
You smiled, you spoke, and I believed - 13 Aug 2006 23:19 GMT
>>everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and
>>pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Caz

I am on alt. support.cancer.prostrate.

as far as I know, everyone on that group has pc, or is closely related
to someone who  has pc.

I don't know what group you are in, but if it is not the one listed
above, be happy.

j.

btw, my signature is j.

there seems to be a j no period, out there, he/she is not me.

j.
Dana Carpender - 13 Aug 2006 23:56 GMT
>>> everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and
>>> pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> I don't know what group you are in, but if it is not the one listed
> above, be happy.

I don't mean to be unkind, but my father has prostate cancer, while my
mother has advanced Alzheimer's.  Having seen both, I'd far prefer the
cancer, thanks.  Not that it's wonderful, by any means, but Dad still
has a meaningful life, with a fair number of things to enjoy, and quite
a lot of independence.  Mom has none of that.

Dana
Alan Meyer - 14 Aug 2006 04:04 GMT
> I don't mean to be unkind, but my father has prostate cancer, while my mother has
> advanced Alzheimer's.  Having seen both, I'd far prefer the cancer, thanks.  Not that
> it's wonderful, by any means, but Dad still has a meaningful life, with a fair number of
> things to enjoy, and quite a lot of independence.  Mom has none of that.
>
> Dana

Speaking as a man who has been treated for prostate cancer
(and may or may not be free of it) I agree 100%.  I'd rather
die of prostate cancer than of Alzheimer's.

Unfortunately, if something else doesn't get him first, your
Dad will face some very tough times with the cancer.  In its
advanced stages, it is long, drawn out, debilitating, and
intensely painful.  And yet, even knowing that, I believe I
could face it (or end it if I choose) more easily than I could
face AD.

I think that perhaps our last task in life, the last thing to strive
for, is a graceful death - one that leaves our friends, families
and loved ones feeling good about us and feeling that we are
at peace with our fates.  With cancer, achieving that is
difficult and arduous, but some people succeed.  With AD,
we can't achieve it at all.

   Alan
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.