Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / August 2006
"The Truth About the Drug Companies" - long and possibly off-topic
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Alan Meyer - 11 Aug 2006 03:03 GMT I have just finished a book called _The Truth About the Drug Companies_ by Dr. Marcia Angell, former executive editor of the New England Journal of Medicine.
This book made me very angry. What follows may appear to be an off-topic rant to some of you. I personally think it's on topic for all people suffering with life threatening diseases. However, if you think this is off-topic, please do not read on.
The facts that Dr. Angell presents are pretty disturbing. In 2002, the top 10 American drug companies made more profit than all of the remaining 490 companies in the Fortune 500 put together.
By their own accounts, the drug companies spend far more money on marketing than on research. But if you look at their accounts, you find that even a great part of the money they include in the category of "research" is really marketing.
Also in 2002, the last year for which Dr. Angell had full data, 78 new drugs were approved by the FDA. Of them, only 7 were "new molecules" that represented a significant improvement over previous treatments. Not one of the seven was developed by a drug company.
There are now 88,000 drug company salespeople in the United States. According to Google, there are now 301,000 physicians. That means that a full time salesperson is effectively dedicated to every 3.4 physicians.
Drug companies are not investing much in new drugs. Their main thrust is in what Angell calls "me-too" drugs. After the first statin drug became a best seller, five more statins were developed by competing companies. Most are small variations on the original molecule. Not one has demonstrated greater effectiveness than any other.
After Viagra became a blockbuster drug, Cialis and Levitra were developed. As with the statins, no clinical trials have ever been conducted to prove that one of these drugs is better than the others. One might be better, but we don't know, and don't know which. For all we know, the first one developed could be the best.
Similar "me-too" drugs have been developed for selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, etc.) heartburn, blood pressure, and other conditions. All of these drugs have been developed and marketed at huge expense, but with no evidence presented that any of the me-too drugs are more effective than any others.
More drugs are developed for long term ills, like high cholesterol, depression, and heartburn than for cancer, heart attack, and other more acute killers. Profits are better with patients who don't die off or get better and stop buying.
The drug companies claim that we need the me-too drugs because some people respond to some better than others. But no clinical trial has ever demonstrated that. It is a claim based on, at best, anecdotal evidence. At worst, it is simply a made up claim that serves the interest of the companies but has no basis at all in fact.
With all of the me-too drugs, one might think that prices would come down. Competition is supposed to do that, isn't it? But the drug companies don't compete on price. Even though Viagra is sold for many, many, many times the cost of manufacturing, and even though all R&D costs were recovered years ago, the cost of Viagra, Cialis and Levitra are all pegged at the original Viagra cost. We still pay top prices. The same is true for statins, SSRI's, and other high profile blockbuster drugs.
The government is in collusion with the companies in all of this profiteering.
There is now more than one drug company lobbyist in Washington for each and every Senator and Congressman. Drug company contributions to the politicians are among the biggest in the country.
In return for these bribes, the drug companies have won the following concessions in the last 25 years:
NIH funded research can be patented and owned by drug companies. Our tax dollars develop drugs but we don't own them.
Patent protection can be set at 20 years and extended by a variety of horrible schemes, such as patenting trivial variations on the drug or its usage or packaging, by testing in children (PMS drugs are tested in children because the government allows an extra 6 months of patent protection if the trials are done with children), and by tying up generic drug makers in court.
It is illegal to import drugs from Canada, even though there have been more cases of drug counterfeiting in the U.S. (where profits from counterfeiting are much higher) than in Canada.
The Medicare Drug Benefit boondoggle makes it illegal for Medicare to pay less than full retail price for drugs, even though all of the other big purchasers (including the VA) pay much less.
FDA drug approvals, from being slower than other countries, have now become the fastest in the world, compromising safety in a number of high profile documented cases.
Direct to consumer advertising, illegal in every other advanced country, has become commonplace in the U.S.
Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are extraordinarily common in the U.S., with little or no attempts by government to stop them.
Dr. Angell offers many ways to curb the power of the companies and make drugs more affordable and research more productive. One of those ways is an incredibly simple plan for making things better. Just this one change would make a huge difference in the cost of drugs and the benefits of research.
She proposes that a drug only be approved for sale if a valid clinical trial demonstrates that it is more effective than the current treatments.
Right now, a company need only demonstrate that its drug is better than a placebo. It need not demonstrate that it's better than other drugs. It can be worse. That's fine. No problem. It can be worse than standard over the counter medications like aspirin or ibuprofen or Tylenol or Tums, and have far more serious side effects. But if it is better than a placebo and doesn't kill people, it will be approved and can be marketed as the next wonder drug.
If we make that illegal, all of the huge marketing, patent protection and, yes, even research costs for developing me-too drugs will go away. All of the recruiting for clinical trials for me-too drugs will go away and the small pool of available trials patients can be steered into real trials. If a drug is demonstrated as better than other drugs, it won't need marketing or advertising. Doctors will hear about it and prescribe it - as they did for the revolutionary cancer drug Gleevec, which was never promoted by the company that secured the rights to it (it was developed, of course, by a scientist named Goldwasser in Chicago who never made, or asked for, a penny out of it.)
I urge everyone to go down to your public library or book store and take a look at _The Truth About Drug Companies_. Then contact your congressional representatives and demand change.
Alan
Torpedo - 11 Aug 2006 03:30 GMT Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are extraordinarily common in the U.S., with little or no attempts by government to stop them.
My BIL is GP, with a pharmacy degree...who has gone on to specialize in Cardiology at the Ottawa Heart Institute. He's told us about all the perks he gets from the drug companies. Conferences held in hot, sunny places...with chartered planes, free accomodations...free meals...and all the free booze, and drug samples you can carry....Oh....and you can bring your wife, free of charge, too...and these take place sometimes 3 or 4 times a year!
It's nothing short of horrendous.
>I have just finished a book called _The Truth About the Drug > Companies_ by Dr. Marcia Angell, former executive editor of the [quoted text clipped - 149 lines] > > Alan Steph - 11 Aug 2006 05:04 GMT > Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and > other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It's nothing short of horrendous. I assume he's not a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, because accepting commercial hospitality like that is entirely contrary to the College ethical code. I suspect it's also contrary to the code of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario
Steph - 11 Aug 2006 06:05 GMT >> Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and >> other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > contrary to the College ethical code. I suspect it's also contrary to the > code of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario And you might want to get him to look at http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/cme/mainpro/maintenance%20of%20proficiency/polic y%20summaries/default.asp?s=1
Especially sections 17-24
Torpedo - 11 Aug 2006 11:22 GMT The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter flights.....it's just the way business is conducted when dealing with pharmaceutical companies.
What concerns me more is the influence these pharmaceutical companies have with our Governments. They can wine and dine the Doctors all they like but the bottom line is that these Doctors can't prescribe it if the Government doesn't approve it for sale to the public....
I think that if we REALLY knew the extent to which funding, research and approval of new drugs was dependant upon political alliances....it'd scare the heck out of all of us.
>>> Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and >>> other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Especially sections 17-24 Alan Meyer - 11 Aug 2006 18:26 GMT > The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there doesn't seem to be > much of a problem filling the seats on these charter flights.....it's just the way > business is conducted when dealing with pharmaceutical companies. Frightening isn't it?
Just think, the doctor that you trust to save your life has no problem accepting bribes from drug companies to prescribe their drugs.
"...it's just the way business is conducted..."
> What concerns me more is the influence these pharmaceutical companies have with our > Governments. They can wine and dine the Doctors all they like but the bottom line is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think that if we REALLY knew the extent to which funding, research and approval of new > drugs was dependant upon political alliances....it'd scare the heck out of all of us. I agree that we need the government to step in and regulate an industry that can't possibly regulate itself. One of the things I really liked about Dr. Angell's analysis of our options was that she found a single thing we could do that would go far towards solving the problem - require new drugs to demonstrate that they are better than existing drugs, in order to gain approval.
At the very, very least, I should think we should require that new drugs are not worse than existing drugs. Too often new drugs are introduced that do not do as good a job as drugs that have been used for years. But doctors and patients are both fooled into believing that the "latest and greatest" must be better than that old stuff the pharmacy has been selling for years.
Alan
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 21:10 GMT >> The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there >> doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > solving the problem - require new drugs to demonstrate that they > are better than existing drugs, in order to gain approval. For values of 'better' that are defined by whom? Suppose they are 1/2 the price but slightly less effective? Or 1/10th the price but with an extra side effect for a minority? Or have less side effects for some people but more for others? Or have a quicker cure rate for some but slightly more side effects for others? etc etc.
"There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible, and wrong". H. L. Mencken
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Alan Meyer - 11 Aug 2006 22:56 GMT > ... > For values of 'better' that are defined by whom? > Suppose they are 1/2 the price but slightly less effective? Or 1/10th the price but with > an extra side effect for a minority? Or have less side effects for some people but more > for others? Or have a quicker cure rate for some but slightly more side effects for > others? etc etc. Valid questions.
However, except for the price questions, we have no data to answer them. It is possible that Lipitor is slightly less effective than Crestor. Or that Crestor has an extra side effect compared to some other cholesterol drug.
But we can't find that out. It might be that one of the drugs really does work better for you than the other, but no clinical trials are done to find out if one works better than another, or if one works better for a specific population than another for the simple reason that the drug companies don't run trials to compare their drugs with other drugs. They only run trials comparing their drugs with placebo. Any other kind of trial is dangerous for them because it can turn out wrong - killing their shot at marketing.
Even if you try two drugs yourself, you can't be sure that one works better than another. It often happens that the standard dose of one drug is twice as much as the standard dose of another - with more potency and more side effects. By increasing your dose of the first drug you might have done better than you did with the second, even though your own experience with the "standard" dose was better with the second.
With no scientific data to rely on, it's impossible to determine which drug is best for you. With six me-too drugs to choose from, if they really are different, you have only a 17% chance (1/6) of getting the one that is best for you.
Of course you can trust your doctor to tell you which is best, but he hasn't done any trials either, and you might want to count the drug company salesmen going into and out of his office each day before
> "There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible, and wrong". H. > L. Mencken Indeed.
Did he know about Aricept?
Alan
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 12:55 GMT >> ... >> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > less effective than Crestor. Or that Crestor has an extra > side effect compared to some other cholesterol drug. So maybe a better simple (and also wrong?) solution would be that all drugs have to be tested against exuisting cures..except that would put the price up...maybe beyond the point its worth doing...so we wouldnt get any new drugs for existing conditions.
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Alan Meyer - 12 Aug 2006 16:57 GMT >>> ... >>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > tested against exuisting cures..except that would put the price up...maybe beyond the > point its worth doing...so we wouldnt get any new drugs for existing conditions. I'm not an expert on all this. Mostly I'm just quoting from an expert (Marcia Angell).
My non-expert speculation is that, yes, all drugs should be tested against existing cures.
That won't keep us from getting new drugs for existing conditions. It just means that any new drugs that are approved will be, in at least some way, better than existing drugs for those conditions.
A drug company wouldn't have to prove that their new drug is better in every case. But they would at least have to prove that there is some population of patients for which their drug is better. If they can't do that, then what good is their drug?
A massive study was conducted by NIH of drugs to reduce blood pressure (see http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/new/press/02-12-17.htm)
Three different categories of new drugs were tested, and the old standard diuretic drugs were tested. It turned out, to everyone's surprise, none of the newer drugs was as effective as the old, cheap diuretics at reducing blood pressure and preventing death by heart attack. Patients on the new drugs had significantly higher risk of stroke, heart failure, angina, and other problems.
And yet the percentage of patients taking diuretics had greatly declined over the last 20 years as doctors, convinced one way or another by the drug company marketing, began prescribing the newer drugs instead.
24 million Americans take these drugs.
Alan
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 20:30 GMT >>>> ... >>>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > some population of patients for which their drug is better. If > they can't do that, then what good is their drug? It might be very good for that pop of patients, but the costs of the trial might outweigh the risk it wont be multiplied by the cost of the trials. So you might not get the drug.
> A massive study was conducted by NIH of drugs to reduce blood > pressure (see http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/new/press/02-12-17.htm) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Alan ...and your point is? Ah, I see, the point is that a massive, expensive trial was needed to find this out. Which wouldn't have been feasible (I guess) for any of the individual companies making the new drug to undertake ny themsleves. In this case the old drug came out best *for the population at large* though I'm willing to bet that there are sub segments for whom the new drugs are better, but I dont see any resaon to draw a general conclusion that therefore no new drugs will be better.
Of course, this is somewhat of a special case, because we are looking at drugs given to treat a general condition, e.g. high blood pressure, that leads on, in general , to a set of further problems when compared statistically, though you cant say in any one case 'this will cure you' or 'thyouw ill definitely get these problems later on if you dont take the drug. This is as compared to a specific immediate problem, say Alzheimer's or cancer for which you arent into statistics in the same way, eg in these cases you have an illness _now_ not a condition that _might_ lead to an illness later. In these latter cases, say Az, you definitely _will_ see trials conducted versus existing treatments rather than a placebo, for two reasons, (1) its not ethical to remove a known treatment in place of one that may have no effect at all, and (2), you wouldn't get many takers for the new drug .."wanna try this, we don't know what it would do..or you could take this, which is the accepted treatment"'.
Tw
Alan Meyer - 13 Aug 2006 02:24 GMT >>>>> ... >>>>> For values of 'better' that are defined by whom? [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > segments for whom the new drugs are better, but I dont see any resaon to draw a general > conclusion that therefore no new drugs will be better. I'm quite sure that the drug companies pay far more to market their drugs than NIH paid for this massive trial.
It may be true that the new drugs are better for some subset of the population. But what is that subset? The drug companies never attempted to find out.
We now do know that, in the average case, the new blood pressure drugs are worse than the old one. How many tens of thousands of people who died of stroke or heart attack on the new drugs might have had their lives prolonged by the old ones?
I never concluded that no new drugs will be better. What I want to do is to re-orient the drug companies to searching for new drugs that _are_ better instead of trying to develop me-too drugs that are not better - just have their brand name on them instead of someone elses - or worse, are not as good.
Instead of having them pour millions into yet another new statin or another new Viagra, I'd like them to put some of that money into a new AD drug and new cancer drugs.
> Of course, this is somewhat of a special case, because we are looking at drugs given to > treat a general condition, e.g. high blood pressure, that leads on, in general , to a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Tw Tw,
Your point about cancer is right. The FDA does not allow cancer drugs to be tested against placebo if there is a standard treatment that is known to be better than placebo. I don't believe that's true for Alzheimer's. But of course there is no currently approved drug for AD except the drugs that don't slow the progress of the disease, only alleviate symptoms for some people for some period of time.
Alan
Tumbleweed - 13 Aug 2006 07:13 GMT .
> Instead of having them pour millions into yet another new statin > or another new Viagra, I'd like them to put some of that money > into a new AD drug and new cancer drugs. Good intentions, but suppose there is no profit in doing that? Who are you to say the company should be bankrupted? if you dont know there is a profit in doing that, which you surely dont, you are now directing the company to spend its money in a way that might bankrupt it.
Lets say that evil pharma company makes1 billion dollars profit (after taxes) in 2006. How much of that money should they spend in 2007 developing a new Az drug? 10%? 50% All of it? SUppose that wasa good year and previously they'd been losing money, maybe they need that to pay off debts or develop new drugs before their old ones go out of protection? Should the new drug be an Az drug? Why not an anti-malarial? Suppose they are unsuccessful, and they spent 500m (because you directed they should spend 50%) on that and its all wasted because the new Az drug doesnt work? You just taxed them $500m. Maybe that money would have been better spent developing a new statin that is, actually, much better than existing ones. But they decided upfront that the chances it would be werent worth the risk of failing the new expensive trials you'd have them do.
Why not come clean and say you want a tax on pharma companies (because thats what this proposal amounts to) which will then be spent on drug development, which drugs to be decided by a government committee. Once you have taken that step, then its illogical to say that only pharma companies should be taxed, just because they happen to make drugs. You should have a drug tax on all companies, because if you didnt, then making drugs is inherently less profitable than making anything else and companies would move into other fields. But we do already have a tax on all companies. So, perhaps to come clean and make it plain to all whats happening, the government should start spending money directly on drug development, either starting up its own pharma companies, or spending the tax money with existing ones, to develop the drugs it does want.
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Alan Meyer - 14 Aug 2006 02:41 GMT > . >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > directly on drug development, either starting up its own pharma companies, or spending > the tax money with existing ones, to develop the drugs it does want. I think that we're getting to the crux of the matter here. You are saying that the drug companies are ordinary capitalist enterprises. Their aim is to make a profit. They are free to do what they want to make that profit.
I am saying that they are, but should not be, ordinary capitalist enterprises. They should be highly regulated and required to do many things that are not profitable, or not as profitable, if they wish to stay in business in the United States.
Every other advanced country does this.
The U.S. does it too, but not as much as I think should be done.
For example, we require drug companies to get FDA approval before they can sell new drugs. We require that they perform clinical trials establishing the safety and efficacy of their drugs - with specific scientific requirements for what is required and what is not allowed in a trial. We require them to provide drug labels that list all side effects, describe the chemicals inside, and warn doctors and patients of potential problems. When they advertise on TV (something that used to be illegal before the Clinton administration changed the law) they are required to state the adverse side effects in their ads.
These regulations have resulted in a dramatic improvement in the quality of drugs available to us.
We regulate lots of industries, not just drug companies. Auto makers have to conform to government crash safety testing and rules. They have to post miles per gallon expectations based on uniform government testing. They have to conform to clean air standards.
As a result of these regulations, accident deaths have declined, and cars are safer, higher mileage, and less polluting.
We apply these kinds of regulations in spite of the protestations of the industries involved because there is a clear public benefit to them. We say to the industries - this is a cost of doing business in the U.S. You may not make money by hurting people or by failing to protect people when known protections are available.
Where there is no such public interest, we don't regulate. The software industry, for example, is free to write software any way they chose. Which is fine. Software doesn't pollute or kill people and is not sold as life saving medication.
It seems to me that the drug companies are among those companies with the very greatest need for regulation in the public interest. I don't think for one minute that the companies will be driven out of business, or that prices will rise, or that innovation will cease because of such regulation. On the contrary, I think prices will fall and innovation will increase. It is possible that some companies will go out of business, but I have no doubt that better ones will take their place. Lots of drug companies have gone out of business in the unregulated market too. But there is a ton of money to be made in developing new, effective drugs. Regulation won't change that.
Alan
Tumbleweed - 14 Aug 2006 18:15 GMT > I think that we're getting to the crux of the matter here. You are > saying that the drug companies are ordinary capitalist enterprises. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Every other advanced country does this. AFAIK thats not true, for example, in Europe, drug companies are free to develop whatever drugs they wish. They arent directed to develop particular drugs, or, AFAIK (again) have to show that a drug that is for condition 'X' is 'better' (whatever that means) than other drugs for condition 'X'.
Why also do you thibk they should be "required to do many things that are not profitable" whereas other companies arent? If the governments want a drug against 'X' developed, why dont they put it out to tender, using the tax payers money? MOre efficient and direct than the 'beating about the bush' method of making them develop drugs that are 'better'. For example, they might decide to spend their money developing a better wart drug, or a better treatment for haemmaroids (sp?), going through all the hoops you care to mention, but thats not what you want is it, you want them to develop better drugs for specific conditions. Why not just cut to the chase. That might work, it worked when you put a man on the moon, or it might be a complete failure, like 'Concordski'.
> The U.S. does it too, but not as much as I think should be done. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Where there is no such public interest, we don't regulate. The software > industry, for example, is free to write software any way they chose. Actually, thats not true at all. For example, its illegal for you to attempt to circumvent the region coding on a DVD , even though the only point of that is to make money for the media industries, there is no technical interest. And if you had a rogue program on your PC put there, for example by Sony, it would be illegal for you to write a program that attempted to find out what it was doing.
> Which is fine. Software doesn't pollute or kill people and is not sold > as life saving medication. Well, software most certainly does kill people, what do you think guides all those smart bombs and fighter planes etc. indeed the US government classifies some algorithms as 'weapons' and restricts their export.
> It seems to me that the drug companies are among those companies > with the very greatest need for regulation in the public interest. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Alan All these regulations are for safety though, not to get specific new drugs developed. But a new effective wart drug isnt what you want is it? So, why hesitate at just these new rules, why not just nationalise them and be done with the pretence? After all, if it really was going to be profitable to develop, say a drug for Az that _really_ worked, dont you think they would be doing that? In fact, I see trial reports all the time about this and that drug trial going on, so maybe its not just as easy as passing a simple rule. What that _might_ do, is prevent a company trying to make a new Az drug in case its only roughly the same as we have, wehreas maybe they think there isa higher chance the new wart cure will be a big success. ...which might mean that, for example the combination of aricepta nd memantine together wouldnt have taken place, since memantine wouldnt have got approval.
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Alan Meyer - 15 Aug 2006 05:17 GMT >> I think that we're getting to the crux of the matter here. You are >> saying that the drug companies are ordinary capitalist enterprises. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (again) have to show that a drug that is for condition 'X' is 'better' (whatever that > means) than other drugs for condition 'X'. I haven't advocating forcing companies to develop particular drugs, though it's not a bad idea. What I advocate is that they shouldn't be given FDA approval for drugs which are not proven even to be as good as, much less better than, the existing treatments.
A case could be made for "as good as", if there is some population better served by the new drug. But in the absence of proof of that why should the FDA approve them?
> Why also do you thibk they should be "required to do many things that are not > profitable" whereas other companies arent? If the governments want a drug against 'X' [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > bombs and fighter planes etc. indeed the US government classifies some algorithms as > 'weapons' and restricts their export. I had forgotten about the export restrictions on encryption programs, which were pretty silly and only served to restrict American exports. I think they've all now been lifted.
I'm not aware of any other export restrictions, though there are programs owned by the U.S. government that are classified as secret.
>> It seems to me that the drug companies are among those companies >> with the very greatest need for regulation in the public interest. I don't [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > combination of aricepta nd memantine together wouldnt have taken place, since memantine > wouldnt have got approval. The argument that the drug companies would be developing more useful drugs if they could would be more convincing if it weren't for the fact that the money spent on research is declining. Almost all the significant new drugs ("new molecules" that show improved effects in patients) are now being developed either with NIH funding (most of them) or at small biotech companies, not at big drug companies.
I'd also be more sympathetic to the drug companies if I didn't see all the corruption they engender. Surely you don't condone the millions in bribes paid to doctors to prescribe their drugs, and to congressmen to pass favorable legislation.
Well, as you said in another posting, they've achieved a ceasefire in the mideast, and we may need to do it too.
It's been an interesting discussion.
Regards,
Alan
Steve Kramer - 12 Aug 2006 02:03 GMT > Just think, the doctor that you trust to save your life has no > problem accepting bribes from drug companies to prescribe > their drugs. More like, "the doctor that saved my life."
Steph - 12 Aug 2006 05:11 GMT > I agree that we need the government to step in and regulate an > industry that can't possibly regulate itself. One of the things I > really liked about Dr. Angell's analysis of our options was that > she found a single thing we could do that would go far towards > solving the problem - require new drugs to demonstrate that they > are better than existing drugs, in order to gain approval. It's called a clinical trial.
> At the very, very least, I should think we should require that > new drugs are not worse than existing drugs. Too often [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Alan Some are, not all
Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 20:02 GMT > The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there > doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > approval of new drugs was dependant upon political alliances....it'd scare > the heck out of all of us. I'm convinced that quite a lot of the truly horrific nutritional advice we've gotten over the past 30 years or so -- to avoid eggs, to eat vegetable oils instead of animal fats, to load up on lots of bread and pasta -- are designed to sell more drugs.
Dana
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 21:18 GMT >> The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there >> doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dana "Never use a conspiracy as an excuse when ignorance or stupidity will suffice"
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Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 22:35 GMT >>>The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there >>>doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "Never use a conspiracy as an excuse when ignorance or stupidity will > suffice" "Follow the money."
Dana
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 09:31 GMT >>>>The truth of the matter is....policy, code of ethics or not.....there >>>>doesn't seem to be much of a problem filling the seats on these charter [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Dana Touche :-) But I just tend to go with stupidity, as Dilbery says its the most powerful natural force.
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Sue Burnham - 12 Aug 2006 03:03 GMT > Gifts, kickbacks, resort travel, bogus consulting fees, and > other payments to doctors who prescribe a company's drugs are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It's nothing short of horrendous. My husband and I used to manage a restaurant in this little backwater village for an absentee owner. We discovered that our fill -in staff had become adept in doing Take-out orders ( we weren't a take-out establishment) for the Pharma reps certain days of the month. This couple pumped out the food and delivered it in any sort of container available...... to our local Health Clinic.. charged to an Amex account for Pfiizer, Novartis, Astra Zeneca, Abbott, Forest.. you name the company, it had been done.
WE held a small local " food safety" course one summer, inviting our local clinic docs and PA's to emphasize the importance of temperature control on grilled foods and avoiding cross-comtamination from grilled rare meats to summer salads on seasonal picnics and BBQ.
They were soo good, and so specific, and sooooo helpful.... we invited them to the restaurant kitchen to see how their Take-Out meals, bought by the drug companies...... needed to be prepared and packaged for them since we "DID NOT DO TAKE OUT".
Sorry, you ordered 7 Blackened Salmon Caesar Salads... you want us to put the hot fish on the cold greens, put the stuff in Saran Wrap and you'll get to it sometime..??????? Maybe you are all set for today, and you'll save this for tomorrow.... in your desk drawer????? Without refrigeration??
Needless to say, there was some infernal internal awareness raised in a big hurry and our local Community Clinic no longer accepts free take-out meals from drug company reps.
One needle at a time. It is a big haystack.
Sue in Maine
David&Joan - 11 Aug 2006 04:51 GMT But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest health care cost of any nation in the world.
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 08:27 GMT > But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest > health care cost of any nation in the world. I always find it ironic that Americans, home of capitalism, complain the loudest about how it works!
 Signature Tumbleweed
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Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 20:01 GMT >>But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest >>health care cost of any nation in the world. > > I always find it ironic that Americans, home of capitalism, complain the > loudest about how it works! "Home of capitalism?" Right. We inherited it from the Europeans.
Maybe they've just gotten over it sooner.
Dana
Tumbleweed - 11 Aug 2006 21:16 GMT >>>But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest >>>health care cost of any nation in the world. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dana Its the home of capitalism *now*. As George Bush apparently said, "the French don't even have a word for Entrepreneur". :-)
 Signature Tumbleweed
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dave perry - 11 Aug 2006 23:48 GMT Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan speech where he said there is no word for "freedom" in the Russion language. Good grief. Dave Perry
> >>>But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest > >>>health care cost of any nation in the world. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > email replies not necessary but to contact use; > tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com Steve Jordan - 12 Aug 2006 01:18 GMT > Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan speech where he said there is no word for > "freedom" in the Russion language. Good grief. > Dunno whether that's true or not, as Dave did not post a reference.
Never mind: this thread and its clones have devolved into utter silliness. I have plonked it, including the crossposts. I have more interesting and important matters about which to be concerned.
Regards,
Steve J
"I believe it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to know than to be ignorant." -- H. L. Mencken
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 09:33 GMT >> Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan speech where he said there is no word for >> "freedom" in the Russion language. Good grief. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have plonked it, including the crossposts. I have more interesting and > important matters about which to be concerned. Absolutely, I see a middle east ceasefire has been arranged, well done!
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Dana Carpender - 11 Aug 2006 20:00 GMT > But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest > health care cost of any nation in the world. And one of the worst longevity and infant mortality rates.
Dana
Steve Kramer - 12 Aug 2006 02:07 GMT >> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the highest >> health care cost of any nation in the world. > > And one of the worst longevity and infant mortality rates. Speaking for those in our newsgroup, we apologize for the incursion into yours. Please resist responding into ours; especially with inane statements.
bj - 12 Aug 2006 02:43 GMT > Speaking for those in our newsgroup, we apologize for the incursion into > yours. Please resist responding into ours; especially with inane > statements. Whose is "our" and whose is "yours"? bj (posting from a.s.cancer)
Alan Meyer - 12 Aug 2006 17:02 GMT >> Speaking for those in our newsgroup, we apologize for the incursion into yours. Please >> resist responding into ours; especially with inane statements. > > Whose is "our" and whose is "yours"? > bj > (posting from a.s.cancer) Sorry bj,
This is my fault, not Steve Kramer's. I inappropriately posted my original message in three newsgroups - for which I apologize.
Steve Kramer was responding to the posting as it appeared in the alt.support.cancer.prostate newsgroup. He probably didn't realize that it was crossposted and just hit the reply button.
Alan
Tumbleweed - 12 Aug 2006 12:57 GMT >>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the >>> highest health care cost of any nation in the world. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yours. Please resist responding into ours; especially with inane > statements. Its very nice of you to have done a full survey of all the people in 'your' newsgroup before responding, perhaps you could mention which one it is just so we can check you covered everyone.
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Evelyn Ruut - 12 Aug 2006 13:43 GMT >>>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the >>>> highest health care cost of any nation in the world. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 'your' newsgroup before responding, perhaps you could mention which one it > is just so we can check you covered everyone. Bingo! You got it, Tumbleweed!
Some idiot cross posted from a couple of cancer groups into our alzheimer group. Not that any of them noticed, before complaining about it.......
What on earth does cancer of any kind have to do with alzheimers anyway!
(I amended the newsgroup line not to start a flame war among them)
 Signature
Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Alan Meyer - 12 Aug 2006 17:08 GMT > ... > Some idiot cross posted from a couple of cancer groups into our alzheimer group. Mea culpa.
I'm sorry Evelyn, Tumbleweed and all others. I am the idiot who did the cross posting. I follow all three groups and decided to post the same message to each. I made the mistake, which I will not repeat, of putting all three groups on one header line instead of posting separately three times.
Steve Kramer and others whose responses are mixed here are not responsible for the problem. I'm sure he just clicked the reply button, not realizing that the replies went to three groups.
(Incidentally, Steve is an excellent person - a cancer patient himself and very helpful to many other people who have cancer.)
I had never cross posted before and so had no first hand experience of the confusion it creates. But I know now.
Please accept my apologies.
Alan
Evelyn Ruut - 12 Aug 2006 17:26 GMT >> ... >> Some idiot cross posted from a couple of cancer groups into our alzheimer [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Alan Hi Alan, and sorry I called you an idiot ;-(
I have done the same thing myself in the past, and later realized it works out better to post separately, because the replies sometimes start flame wars with all new people and unrelated groups etc.
Alls well though, and sorry again.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Alan Meyer - 13 Aug 2006 02:26 GMT > Hi Alan, and sorry I called you an idiot ;-( No need to apologize. What I did was idiotic. But I didn't realize the consequences at the time.
Regards,
Alan
dave481 - 12 Aug 2006 15:37 GMT I've got prostate cancer. I've been treated with surgery, drugs, and radiation. I might live. Probably will live. Thanks to these drugs, Drs. and radiation. In all honesty I don't know who developed them, don't care, but , I'm sure they wanted paid for it. My daughter is a research biologist for a pharmaceutical company in North Carolina. she's not wealthy, but lives the American dream. She works 60-70 hour weeks. I have health insurance. One of the men that get radiation before me, everyday, also has ADT and surgery. He has no insurance, speaks no english, has been in this country illegaly since 1956. His daughter is bilingual, works as a janitor, is legal and brings him everyday. Her daughter, born here, speaks very little spanish, is a school teacher and has insurance. He is treated identical to me. Except he got cheaper suppositories when his butt hurt, I got foam. He has no money, is in his 70's. Worked on farms and ranches for 50 years at below minimum wage (housing provided by boss). The next time your in the grocery store give him thanks because you only spend 17% of you check on food. Point is, we both got treatment that saved of lives and retained most quality. His daughter might teach some kid, that will prescibe a medicine my daughter discovered, that will save a bunch more people. If my daughter is not paid well, she'll move on and not research medicines. She studied for years and works hard. One of her frustrations is the govt restrictions she wastes time on now. In 2002 drug companies did do well. My elderly retired parents have stock in Pfiser and Johnson&Johnson. They pay their bills, travel a little and owe no one. The govt spends no money on them. Since 02 my mom says the stocks have been up and down.
What I'm trying to say is, in my experience, the American system works, and works well. It's not an opinion, just what I've seen. That's all I can verify and comment on. That and I'm grateful for the support of this group, the drugs, Drs. (two are foreign born and chose this country) and machines that gave me some years to enjoy.
Thank-you David
p.s. What is "cross posting?"
> >>> But, it is the American way ;-) Why else do you think we have the > >>> highest health care cost of any nation in the world. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > email replies not necessary but to contact use; > tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com You smiled, you spoke, and I believed - 13 Aug 2006 03:21 GMT > I have just finished a book called _The Truth About the Drug > Companies_ by Dr. Marcia Angell, former executive editor of the [quoted text clipped - 149 lines] > > Alan everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and treatments to the market.
My brachetherapy cost $30,000. Insurance, another "evil" capitalist company paid most of it.
Am I happy with the result? Compared to the possible alternatives, you bet!
Patent rights & protection thereof is one of basic reasons that the US is the most innovative country in the world.
j.
Caz - 13 Aug 2006 15:37 GMT > everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and > pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and > treatments to the market. <snip>
Sorry to disillusion you, but *not* everyone on this group is alive "solely due to the medical and pharmeceutial (sic) companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and treatments to the market".
I don't take *any* drugs. I'm alive, and I'm here.
Over to you.
Caz
You smiled, you spoke, and I believed - 13 Aug 2006 23:19 GMT >>everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and >>pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Caz I am on alt. support.cancer.prostrate.
as far as I know, everyone on that group has pc, or is closely related to someone who has pc.
I don't know what group you are in, but if it is not the one listed above, be happy.
j.
btw, my signature is j.
there seems to be a j no period, out there, he/she is not me.
j.
Dana Carpender - 13 Aug 2006 23:56 GMT >>> everybody that is on this group is alive solely due to the medical and >>> pharmeceutial companies doing basic research, and bringing drugs and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I don't know what group you are in, but if it is not the one listed > above, be happy. I don't mean to be unkind, but my father has prostate cancer, while my mother has advanced Alzheimer's. Having seen both, I'd far prefer the cancer, thanks. Not that it's wonderful, by any means, but Dad still has a meaningful life, with a fair number of things to enjoy, and quite a lot of independence. Mom has none of that.
Dana
Alan Meyer - 14 Aug 2006 04:04 GMT > I don't mean to be unkind, but my father has prostate cancer, while my mother has > advanced Alzheimer's. Having seen both, I'd far prefer the cancer, thanks. Not that > it's wonderful, by any means, but Dad still has a meaningful life, with a fair number of > things to enjoy, and quite a lot of independence. Mom has none of that. > > Dana Speaking as a man who has been treated for prostate cancer (and may or may not be free of it) I agree 100%. I'd rather die of prostate cancer than of Alzheimer's.
Unfortunately, if something else doesn't get him first, your Dad will face some very tough times with the cancer. In its advanced stages, it is long, drawn out, debilitating, and intensely painful. And yet, even knowing that, I believe I could face it (or end it if I choose) more easily than I could face AD.
I think that perhaps our last task in life, the last thing to strive for, is a graceful death - one that leaves our friends, families and loved ones feeling good about us and feeling that we are at peace with our fates. With cancer, achieving that is difficult and arduous, but some people succeed. With AD, we can't achieve it at all.
Alan
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