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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / July 2006

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MIL needs prayers

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gensearchN@gmail.com - 07 Jul 2006 14:37 GMT
Yesterday I posted to Julian's thread about his grandfather that my MIL
had been holding her own for sometime now.   About an hour after I
posted, I had a call from her hospice nurse.  Della is 93 and in a SNF.
She had significant changes yesterday.  We had just gotten back from
vacation on Wednesday, our first in a long time and I was trying to
unpack so hadn't gotten out there yet yesterday.  Asking for prayers
for her to have a peaceful passing if it's time for her to leave us.
As soon as I get a sitter for my boys, I'm heading back over there. I
had to come home last night and leave her because hubby was having a
really hard time dealing with this. It his him last night that this is
probably the end. He's still not dealt with the grief over losing his
father (also Alzheimers) so this is doubly hard for him.

She had a really good day the day before we went out of town.  My boys
are under 12 and don't want to go.  I'm not making them go.   My 9yo
said he wants to remember her how she was when he saw her last week.
Both boys fed her dinner that night and she was sitting up talking to
them in her nonsensical way occassionally. When we called everyday
while we were gone, she remained the same as always but yesterday took
a turn for the worse.
Thank you.
Susan
Tumbleweed - 07 Jul 2006 14:54 GMT
news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>  Asking for prayers
> for her to have a peaceful passing if it's time for her to leave us.

I always wonder about prayers like this. Is the requestee implying that
there is a cruel* supernatural entity** that will respond to targetted
requests?

Better to talk to the doctors, they are the ones more likely to have an
effect. When its my 'time' I want someone intervening with Morphine, not
Odin (for example).

*cruel, since the MIL will apparently suffer unless some unspecified amount
of praying to said entity is carried out.

** do we need to pray to a specific entity? If we choose the wrong one,
might that annoy the one involved in the cruelty and do more harm than good?
WhIch one to pick, there's the question.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

ladylove77 - 07 Jul 2006 16:39 GMT
Susan, although some don't believe, I know God does answer prayers.  We've
seen evidence of that on another group I post to many, many times.  And my
own life bears that out.  Will be praying for your MIL that if this is her
time to go that she will pass easily.  And will pray expecially for your
husband.
Gwen

> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>  Asking for prayers
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> might that annoy the one involved in the cruelty and do more harm than
> good? WhIch one to pick, there's the question.
gensearchN@gmail.com - 08 Jul 2006 12:53 GMT
Gwen and Evelyn,
Thank you.
Whether tumble understood it or not, when you've worked with geriatric
patients as long as I did, you spend much time at the bedside of people
who are leaving this world.  I've seen too many over the years who died
painfully and suffering.  I'd much prefer that MIL be painfree and
comfortable as she passed. While I don't get to make that choice for
her, I personally do believe in prayer.  It doesn't matter what
religion someone practices, Most people do have a type of ritual
whether prayer or uplifting of postiive thoughts or energy that they
offer for others.

Tumble, while I understand your right to a view, when someone post
something like this, it's a time when they are looking for support and
not conflict.  Instead of posting on that thread, why not start your
own to post your opinion if you have nothing to say of support to the
person.  While I don't care that someone gives an opposite view to mine
and I certainly don't mind a good debate, I'm not particularly in a
mood for one at this time.

My MIL was a wonderful caring person. It is very difficult losing her,
even though we really lost her some years back as the person she was
due to the Alzheimers.  On top of that my husband has been ill for
sometime which is one reason I haven't been on as much (plus working
again now) and he is not dealing with losing his mother well.  She
adopted him as an infant and was a wonderful mother. They were very
close. He's still coping with losing his father and this has hit him
very hard. I was very blessed to have a wonderful MIL in a time when so
many have ones who are difficult.

Evelyn, thank you for that explaination of Buddhism.  It's been many
years since I took a course in World Religions in college so I'm a bit
rusty on the practices of some.

With my MIL, she is on hospice.  The group in our community is
wonderful. I know most of the nurses and aides from the days when I was
a SW in facilities. I brought this group into all three facilities that
I worked in over the years. I've seen the comfort they provide to
patients and families.  Unfortunately, we're having some difficulty
getting her comfort kit scripts from the doctor. I'm not sure why and
it seems to be a problem with her office staff getting them sent back
to the facility, but I'm about to raise some noise with that office.
The hospice nurse and facility nurses have been calling them multiple
times every day since Thursday.  They promised Thurs night, they would
be sent and still haven't been received.  At least Hospice is now going
to have their own medical director to write the scripts so then she
will have the Morphine, Ativan and other meds when she needs them. So
far, she seems comfortable. Even though her respirations were very low
throughout the night, she appeared comfortable....not restless, moaning
or anything.  I asked them to bring in the O2 last night so that it is
there when she needs it without having to wait.

I've seen people pull out of what appeared to be end of life conditions
before and live for sometime so I know it's possible, but given her
condition at this time, I don't believe that is the case.

Susan
(formerly ncfisher on this group...had email change)
ladylove77 - 11 Jul 2006 02:23 GMT
Susan, so glad Hospice is going to see that she gets the pain meds she needs
to stay comfortable.  Will continue praying for all of you.
Gwen

> Gwen and Evelyn,
> Thank you.
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> Susan
> (formerly ncfisher on this group...had email change)
Evelyn Ruut - 07 Jul 2006 18:02 GMT
> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>  Asking for prayers
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> might that annoy the one involved in the cruelty and do more harm than
> good? WhIch one to pick, there's the question.

That is a very interesting philosophical question, Tumbleweed, and one I
have answered many times, especially on the buddhist newsgroups.   You see
buddhists do not believe in a creator god type being.   The next naturally
arising question is "then to whom or what do buddhists pray?"   Which is
where your question comes in.

The short answer is that it doesn't matter what or to whom you are praying,
because essentially the reason you are praying is because it is a positive
and good thing for me (and anyone) to have good wishes for other living
beings who are suffering.

As a buddhist I pray every single day for the benefit and happiness of all
living beings.   I certainly am not beseeching some imaginary friend to
intervene and change the rules of the universe according to my personal
desires, because sometimes an intervention may not be in the best interest
of all living beings.

For a buddhist, my prayers are an extension and an expression of good
wishes, an affirmation of my own personal good-will for all beings to have
whatever they need or want in their lives.   Buddhists for example, might
pray to a visualized being, which are often described somewhat incorrectly
as "deities" but in reality they are meditation focii, not beings that exist
from their own side.    This is what so many people misunderstand about
buddhists and who and what they pray to.  We may pray to mentally generated
images, created for a purpose, then dispersed afterwards, and all merit is
dedicated again, to all living beings.   All of it is a mental exercise done
by the meditator (and pray-or).

Life goes on, and people live, suffer, die, love, eat, sh.t and have sex and
a million other ways they express their lives.   Everything they do is
focused on self and the things of self.   To pray with sincere heart for
other living beings to be happy is to take the focus off of self for a
little bit.   For a buddhist to get the focus off of self for a while is a
very good practice, and something worthwhile to do as often as possible.

Think of all the wars that have ever been.   Think of all the people on
either side of those wars, all believing with all their hearts that their
god is on their side.   Yet someone loses.   Does that mean their god is
false and the other sides god is real?   Of course not, because often they
claim they are believers in the same god.   Life happens no matter who is
praying or what they are praying for.   It has nothing whatsoever to do with
whether there is a god or not, or whose prayers got listened to and whose
did not.

Think of all the people who are sick and suffering or even dying at this
very moment in time.   Now think kind thoughts and say to yourself or to
whatever you want to say it to;  "I hope their suffering is relieved, and
that they have peace"  could it possibly hurt?

Once on this very newsgroup, when Gwen (who is a wonderful person) said she
would pray for someone, and another person took offense, someone else
replied "would it really hurt you to have a nice lady like Gwen pray for
you?"

There is a world of wisdom in that statement.   The praying is not the
thing, it is the goodwill, the positive wish, the desire for good, expressed
in the prayer.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Caz - 08 Jul 2006 06:43 GMT
> "Tumbleweed" <thisaccountneverread@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> Evelyn
> (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Thanks for that, Evelyn. Makes wonderful sense, to me.

Caz
Tumbleweed - 10 Jul 2006 21:47 GMT
I like that answer (left intact below). makes sense. ta

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

>
>> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> thing, it is the goodwill, the positive wish, the desire for good,
> expressed in the prayer.
Jan-ed - 12 Jul 2006 17:00 GMT
I believe that desire is action.  In prayer there is both desire and
action, though in our world we rarely understand this and also rarely
make use of this powerful tool.

Someone requesting prayer is asking for support, for comfort, for a
community that listens and cares.

That is why I joined this group, and I am glad to share my prayers, my
sense of hope and compassion, to give and receive, to be a part of an
extended family during times that are difficult, painful and often seem
to make little sense.

Jan-ed

> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >  Asking for prayers
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
carolinasongbird@gmail.com - 15 Jul 2006 14:57 GMT
As C.S. Lewis said (paraphrased), "I don't pray because it changes God.
I pray because it changes me."

When I pray for someone, I feel like I am coming alongside them, like
the smaller boats that accompany a large Navy vessel. The sea may not
change, but there is comfort in knowing you are not alone. I know this
has been a comfort to me when I was the one so afraid of the waves I
couldn't think straight.

Tumbleweed, I do believe in a specific God, and I do not believe he is
capricious or malevolent although his actions may appear to be. That's
because there is a bigger picture I can't understand. So my prayer is
always, "God, your will be done, and if you can help me understand it,
I would appreciate it but it is not neccesary. Comfort all those in
pain because of what must be." (I also don't believe God micro-manages
the world, but that's a theological discussion for another time and
place.)

And if someone asks for prayers, it's often a way of saying "I'm scared
(worried, concerned, angry, sad, fill in the blank.) I need help." If
someone put it that way on the newsgroup, we would all reply with
encouraging comments and a some friendly advice. We sit at our computer
keyboards and think friendly and encouraging thoughts and then transmit
them by electrons. Prayers just don't require the electrons!

And if you are not a person of prayer, don't feel you have to be. Just
say, "Sorry to hear that. Drive safely. I'll be thinking about you."
That's a blessing just as well.

Songbird
A R Pickett - 16 Jul 2006 02:20 GMT
Songbird wrote in part - So my prayer is
> always, "God, your will be done, and if you can help me understand it,
> I would appreciate it but it is not neccesary. Comfort all those in
> pain because of what must be." (I also don't believe God micro-manages
> the world, but that's a theological discussion for another time and
> place.)

A long time ago, when it seemed to me that the roof had fallen in on the
structure of my life, I read somewhere, or perhaps someone I trusted told
me, that God is not a magician.  He (or She if you prefer) is the Creator.
There is no magic incantation which will make things go the way we wish they
might.  However, it does not follow that the Creator has no concern, no
love, no empathy with us.  And it DOES follow that prayer is a worthwhile
and beneficial action during bad times and during good times.  After I heard
that concept and began to understand it, it seemed to me at the time that my
Creator's heart was breaking, too, to perceive and come to me in the depth
of my pain.

It helped at the time, and it has helped since.  It did not magically
restore the roof in an instant.  It was the first step in replacing the roof
which had fallen.

My two cents.

Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"

Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Remove lower case "e" to respond

ncgen - 16 Jul 2006 08:41 GMT
Thank you all.   My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th.  My boys,
knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say
goodbye even though they didn't want to see her like that.  They wanted
to remember their last visit with her before she became unresponsive.
At their ages, I had not pushed them to go. So, I was proud of them and
they handled it well.  They were so young when FIL passed way, this was
really their first experience losing a loved one.

After I dropped them off following their visit at the sitters,  I went
back to sit with MIL for the night.  She peacefully drifted away about
45 minutes later.   It happened so quickly,  her hospice nurse didn't
get there until after she passed.  I stepped out to let the facility
nurse know she needed to come to the room. When she walked in my MIL
was already gone.  With the AD, the person we knew and loved had been
gone for years though. We returned last night from the town we used to
live in and where she lived for over 50 years.  We had her services
there since it was really home to her.  
Susan
Liz (Aust) - 16 Jul 2006 11:16 GMT
Susan

My deepest sympathy on the loss to your family. I am glad that your MIL
passed peacefully and hope you find consolation in that.

I understand your sons wanting to remember her as she was, I visited my
grandmother in a nursing home at the request of my father and I am
sorry that I did for she did not know I was there, let alone who I was.
She had changed so much from the last time I saw her that I had to get
the nurse to tell me which of the woen in that room was her and I cried
when I saw how much she had deteriorated.

However I was rewarded in a way as one lady in her room put her arms
out to me with a beautiful big smile on her face and I went over a gave
her a hug, so I like to think I made her happier for a brief time. She
said nothing to me and possibly could not speak, but her face said it
all.

I am sure your sons will still remember their grandmother as she was
and gain comfort from all their happy memories.

My heart goes out to you and your family, particularly your husband.

Liz

> Thank you all.   My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th.
Adelle - 18 Jul 2006 14:10 GMT
> Susan
>
> My deepest sympathy on the loss to your family. I am glad that your MIL
> passed peacefully and hope you find consolation in that.

Dear Susan;

The same from me.

Your boys so sound wonderful. It was a very important thing they did. It
will help them to process the whole cycle and teach them they are strong and
resilient enough to endure even the most painful things. My husband has
missed that within his own family. They are not big on enduring the painful
moments (or working to create really great ones either). Sounds like the
same for your husband.

Wishing you and your husband strength. May happy and loving memories be of
comfort when you are ready for them.

Adelle
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Jul 2006 12:01 GMT
> Thank you all.   My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th.  My boys,
> knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> there since it was really home to her.
> Susan

Dear Susan,

Losing a loved one is always so sad, even in the circumstance of a long term
illness like alzheimers.   May your very best memories sustain you through
this time.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

ladylove77 - 16 Jul 2006 14:14 GMT
My sympathy to all of you, Susan, and my prayers.
Gwen

> Thank you all.   My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th.  My boys,
> knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> there since it was really home to her.
> Susan
Chuck Whealton - 16 Jul 2006 22:32 GMT
> Thank you all.   My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th.  My boys,
> knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> there since it was really home to her.
> Susan

Susan:

I'm certainly sorry to hear about your MIL.  I have no doubt it's also
hard on your husband, having lost both of his parents to the disease
now.

My own mother went from dementia, probably caused by repeated
mini-strokes (I'm told), and then my Aunt and Uncle went within two
years of each other from AD (the Aunt) and Pick's diseaes (the Uncle).
It was very hard on all of us, but particularly my cousins.  I began to
notice my Aunt's symptoms within months after my Mother died.

I don't even know what else to say besides "I'm sorry", and that hardly
seems good enough, knowing how it feels.  There's not a day that goes
by that I don't think about my late parents.

Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
A R Pickett - 17 Jul 2006 00:54 GMT
All my sympathy Susan, to you, your family and friends.

Woodstock
ncgen - 18 Jul 2006 13:08 GMT
Thank you everyone. During the days before she passed,  she was not
showing signs of pain or anything and remained calm.  Although we had
the meds on hand, she only received them a couple of times in the days
before she passed both times being after a bath or repositioning.  Her
hospice aide was wonderful. She came to check on her and helped me
bathe Della even on her days off and called repeatedly to the facility
to check on her.  The girl called her Granny and had known her at her
old facility too.  I was glad that she had someone so caring being with
her during the day in the months before she passed.

Hubby is having a hard time. It didn't make it any easier that the
minister who did her service kept referring to him as an orphan.
Typically, we think of orphans as being children, but a friend of ours
told me that after both his parents passed away last year, he felt that
way even at 40.  I'm hoping my husband will take advantage of the grief
counseling that Hospice offers.  He's never really dealt with losing
his father and this has reopened all of those wounds.
 
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