Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / July 2006
MIL needs prayers
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gensearchN@gmail.com - 07 Jul 2006 14:37 GMT Yesterday I posted to Julian's thread about his grandfather that my MIL had been holding her own for sometime now. About an hour after I posted, I had a call from her hospice nurse. Della is 93 and in a SNF. She had significant changes yesterday. We had just gotten back from vacation on Wednesday, our first in a long time and I was trying to unpack so hadn't gotten out there yet yesterday. Asking for prayers for her to have a peaceful passing if it's time for her to leave us. As soon as I get a sitter for my boys, I'm heading back over there. I had to come home last night and leave her because hubby was having a really hard time dealing with this. It his him last night that this is probably the end. He's still not dealt with the grief over losing his father (also Alzheimers) so this is doubly hard for him.
She had a really good day the day before we went out of town. My boys are under 12 and don't want to go. I'm not making them go. My 9yo said he wants to remember her how she was when he saw her last week. Both boys fed her dinner that night and she was sitting up talking to them in her nonsensical way occassionally. When we called everyday while we were gone, she remained the same as always but yesterday took a turn for the worse. Thank you. Susan
Tumbleweed - 07 Jul 2006 14:54 GMT news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Asking for prayers > for her to have a peaceful passing if it's time for her to leave us. I always wonder about prayers like this. Is the requestee implying that there is a cruel* supernatural entity** that will respond to targetted requests?
Better to talk to the doctors, they are the ones more likely to have an effect. When its my 'time' I want someone intervening with Morphine, not Odin (for example).
*cruel, since the MIL will apparently suffer unless some unspecified amount of praying to said entity is carried out.
** do we need to pray to a specific entity? If we choose the wrong one, might that annoy the one involved in the cruelty and do more harm than good? WhIch one to pick, there's the question.
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ladylove77 - 07 Jul 2006 16:39 GMT Susan, although some don't believe, I know God does answer prayers. We've seen evidence of that on another group I post to many, many times. And my own life bears that out. Will be praying for your MIL that if this is her time to go that she will pass easily. And will pray expecially for your husband. Gwen
> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> Asking for prayers [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > might that annoy the one involved in the cruelty and do more harm than > good? WhIch one to pick, there's the question. gensearchN@gmail.com - 08 Jul 2006 12:53 GMT Gwen and Evelyn, Thank you. Whether tumble understood it or not, when you've worked with geriatric patients as long as I did, you spend much time at the bedside of people who are leaving this world. I've seen too many over the years who died painfully and suffering. I'd much prefer that MIL be painfree and comfortable as she passed. While I don't get to make that choice for her, I personally do believe in prayer. It doesn't matter what religion someone practices, Most people do have a type of ritual whether prayer or uplifting of postiive thoughts or energy that they offer for others.
Tumble, while I understand your right to a view, when someone post something like this, it's a time when they are looking for support and not conflict. Instead of posting on that thread, why not start your own to post your opinion if you have nothing to say of support to the person. While I don't care that someone gives an opposite view to mine and I certainly don't mind a good debate, I'm not particularly in a mood for one at this time.
My MIL was a wonderful caring person. It is very difficult losing her, even though we really lost her some years back as the person she was due to the Alzheimers. On top of that my husband has been ill for sometime which is one reason I haven't been on as much (plus working again now) and he is not dealing with losing his mother well. She adopted him as an infant and was a wonderful mother. They were very close. He's still coping with losing his father and this has hit him very hard. I was very blessed to have a wonderful MIL in a time when so many have ones who are difficult.
Evelyn, thank you for that explaination of Buddhism. It's been many years since I took a course in World Religions in college so I'm a bit rusty on the practices of some.
With my MIL, she is on hospice. The group in our community is wonderful. I know most of the nurses and aides from the days when I was a SW in facilities. I brought this group into all three facilities that I worked in over the years. I've seen the comfort they provide to patients and families. Unfortunately, we're having some difficulty getting her comfort kit scripts from the doctor. I'm not sure why and it seems to be a problem with her office staff getting them sent back to the facility, but I'm about to raise some noise with that office. The hospice nurse and facility nurses have been calling them multiple times every day since Thursday. They promised Thurs night, they would be sent and still haven't been received. At least Hospice is now going to have their own medical director to write the scripts so then she will have the Morphine, Ativan and other meds when she needs them. So far, she seems comfortable. Even though her respirations were very low throughout the night, she appeared comfortable....not restless, moaning or anything. I asked them to bring in the O2 last night so that it is there when she needs it without having to wait.
I've seen people pull out of what appeared to be end of life conditions before and live for sometime so I know it's possible, but given her condition at this time, I don't believe that is the case.
Susan (formerly ncfisher on this group...had email change)
ladylove77 - 11 Jul 2006 02:23 GMT Susan, so glad Hospice is going to see that she gets the pain meds she needs to stay comfortable. Will continue praying for all of you. Gwen
> Gwen and Evelyn, > Thank you. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Susan > (formerly ncfisher on this group...had email change) Evelyn Ruut - 07 Jul 2006 18:02 GMT > news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> Asking for prayers [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > might that annoy the one involved in the cruelty and do more harm than > good? WhIch one to pick, there's the question. That is a very interesting philosophical question, Tumbleweed, and one I have answered many times, especially on the buddhist newsgroups. You see buddhists do not believe in a creator god type being. The next naturally arising question is "then to whom or what do buddhists pray?" Which is where your question comes in.
The short answer is that it doesn't matter what or to whom you are praying, because essentially the reason you are praying is because it is a positive and good thing for me (and anyone) to have good wishes for other living beings who are suffering.
As a buddhist I pray every single day for the benefit and happiness of all living beings. I certainly am not beseeching some imaginary friend to intervene and change the rules of the universe according to my personal desires, because sometimes an intervention may not be in the best interest of all living beings.
For a buddhist, my prayers are an extension and an expression of good wishes, an affirmation of my own personal good-will for all beings to have whatever they need or want in their lives. Buddhists for example, might pray to a visualized being, which are often described somewhat incorrectly as "deities" but in reality they are meditation focii, not beings that exist from their own side. This is what so many people misunderstand about buddhists and who and what they pray to. We may pray to mentally generated images, created for a purpose, then dispersed afterwards, and all merit is dedicated again, to all living beings. All of it is a mental exercise done by the meditator (and pray-or).
Life goes on, and people live, suffer, die, love, eat, sh.t and have sex and a million other ways they express their lives. Everything they do is focused on self and the things of self. To pray with sincere heart for other living beings to be happy is to take the focus off of self for a little bit. For a buddhist to get the focus off of self for a while is a very good practice, and something worthwhile to do as often as possible.
Think of all the wars that have ever been. Think of all the people on either side of those wars, all believing with all their hearts that their god is on their side. Yet someone loses. Does that mean their god is false and the other sides god is real? Of course not, because often they claim they are believers in the same god. Life happens no matter who is praying or what they are praying for. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether there is a god or not, or whose prayers got listened to and whose did not.
Think of all the people who are sick and suffering or even dying at this very moment in time. Now think kind thoughts and say to yourself or to whatever you want to say it to; "I hope their suffering is relieved, and that they have peace" could it possibly hurt?
Once on this very newsgroup, when Gwen (who is a wonderful person) said she would pray for someone, and another person took offense, someone else replied "would it really hurt you to have a nice lady like Gwen pray for you?"
There is a world of wisdom in that statement. The praying is not the thing, it is the goodwill, the positive wish, the desire for good, expressed in the prayer.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Caz - 08 Jul 2006 06:43 GMT > "Tumbleweed" <thisaccountneverread@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Evelyn > (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox') Thanks for that, Evelyn. Makes wonderful sense, to me.
Caz
Tumbleweed - 10 Jul 2006 21:47 GMT I like that answer (left intact below). makes sense. ta
 Signature Tumbleweed
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> >> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > thing, it is the goodwill, the positive wish, the desire for good, > expressed in the prayer. Jan-ed - 12 Jul 2006 17:00 GMT I believe that desire is action. In prayer there is both desire and action, though in our world we rarely understand this and also rarely make use of this powerful tool.
Someone requesting prayer is asking for support, for comfort, for a community that listens and cares.
That is why I joined this group, and I am glad to share my prayers, my sense of hope and compassion, to give and receive, to be a part of an extended family during times that are difficult, painful and often seem to make little sense.
Jan-ed
> news:1152279459.149441.71180@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Asking for prayers [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > email replies not necessary but to contact use; > tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com carolinasongbird@gmail.com - 15 Jul 2006 14:57 GMT As C.S. Lewis said (paraphrased), "I don't pray because it changes God. I pray because it changes me."
When I pray for someone, I feel like I am coming alongside them, like the smaller boats that accompany a large Navy vessel. The sea may not change, but there is comfort in knowing you are not alone. I know this has been a comfort to me when I was the one so afraid of the waves I couldn't think straight.
Tumbleweed, I do believe in a specific God, and I do not believe he is capricious or malevolent although his actions may appear to be. That's because there is a bigger picture I can't understand. So my prayer is always, "God, your will be done, and if you can help me understand it, I would appreciate it but it is not neccesary. Comfort all those in pain because of what must be." (I also don't believe God micro-manages the world, but that's a theological discussion for another time and place.)
And if someone asks for prayers, it's often a way of saying "I'm scared (worried, concerned, angry, sad, fill in the blank.) I need help." If someone put it that way on the newsgroup, we would all reply with encouraging comments and a some friendly advice. We sit at our computer keyboards and think friendly and encouraging thoughts and then transmit them by electrons. Prayers just don't require the electrons!
And if you are not a person of prayer, don't feel you have to be. Just say, "Sorry to hear that. Drive safely. I'll be thinking about you." That's a blessing just as well.
Songbird
A R Pickett - 16 Jul 2006 02:20 GMT Songbird wrote in part - So my prayer is
> always, "God, your will be done, and if you can help me understand it, > I would appreciate it but it is not neccesary. Comfort all those in > pain because of what must be." (I also don't believe God micro-manages > the world, but that's a theological discussion for another time and > place.) A long time ago, when it seemed to me that the roof had fallen in on the structure of my life, I read somewhere, or perhaps someone I trusted told me, that God is not a magician. He (or She if you prefer) is the Creator. There is no magic incantation which will make things go the way we wish they might. However, it does not follow that the Creator has no concern, no love, no empathy with us. And it DOES follow that prayer is a worthwhile and beneficial action during bad times and during good times. After I heard that concept and began to understand it, it seemed to me at the time that my Creator's heart was breaking, too, to perceive and come to me in the depth of my pain.
It helped at the time, and it has helped since. It did not magically restore the roof in an instant. It was the first step in replacing the roof which had fallen.
My two cents.
 Signature A R Pickett aka Woodstock
"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author
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ncgen - 16 Jul 2006 08:41 GMT Thank you all. My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th. My boys, knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say goodbye even though they didn't want to see her like that. They wanted to remember their last visit with her before she became unresponsive. At their ages, I had not pushed them to go. So, I was proud of them and they handled it well. They were so young when FIL passed way, this was really their first experience losing a loved one.
After I dropped them off following their visit at the sitters, I went back to sit with MIL for the night. She peacefully drifted away about 45 minutes later. It happened so quickly, her hospice nurse didn't get there until after she passed. I stepped out to let the facility nurse know she needed to come to the room. When she walked in my MIL was already gone. With the AD, the person we knew and loved had been gone for years though. We returned last night from the town we used to live in and where she lived for over 50 years. We had her services there since it was really home to her. Susan
Liz (Aust) - 16 Jul 2006 11:16 GMT Susan
My deepest sympathy on the loss to your family. I am glad that your MIL passed peacefully and hope you find consolation in that.
I understand your sons wanting to remember her as she was, I visited my grandmother in a nursing home at the request of my father and I am sorry that I did for she did not know I was there, let alone who I was. She had changed so much from the last time I saw her that I had to get the nurse to tell me which of the woen in that room was her and I cried when I saw how much she had deteriorated.
However I was rewarded in a way as one lady in her room put her arms out to me with a beautiful big smile on her face and I went over a gave her a hug, so I like to think I made her happier for a brief time. She said nothing to me and possibly could not speak, but her face said it all.
I am sure your sons will still remember their grandmother as she was and gain comfort from all their happy memories.
My heart goes out to you and your family, particularly your husband.
Liz
> Thank you all. My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th. Adelle - 18 Jul 2006 14:10 GMT > Susan > > My deepest sympathy on the loss to your family. I am glad that your MIL > passed peacefully and hope you find consolation in that. Dear Susan;
The same from me.
Your boys so sound wonderful. It was a very important thing they did. It will help them to process the whole cycle and teach them they are strong and resilient enough to endure even the most painful things. My husband has missed that within his own family. They are not big on enduring the painful moments (or working to create really great ones either). Sounds like the same for your husband.
Wishing you and your husband strength. May happy and loving memories be of comfort when you are ready for them.
Adelle
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Jul 2006 12:01 GMT > Thank you all. My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th. My boys, > knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there since it was really home to her. > Susan Dear Susan,
Losing a loved one is always so sad, even in the circumstance of a long term illness like alzheimers. May your very best memories sustain you through this time.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
ladylove77 - 16 Jul 2006 14:14 GMT My sympathy to all of you, Susan, and my prayers. Gwen
> Thank you all. My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th. My boys, > knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there since it was really home to her. > Susan Chuck Whealton - 16 Jul 2006 22:32 GMT > Thank you all. My MIL passed away on Monday, the 10th. My boys, > knowing their dad couldn't go, took it upon themselves to go say [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there since it was really home to her. > Susan Susan:
I'm certainly sorry to hear about your MIL. I have no doubt it's also hard on your husband, having lost both of his parents to the disease now.
My own mother went from dementia, probably caused by repeated mini-strokes (I'm told), and then my Aunt and Uncle went within two years of each other from AD (the Aunt) and Pick's diseaes (the Uncle). It was very hard on all of us, but particularly my cousins. I began to notice my Aunt's symptoms within months after my Mother died.
I don't even know what else to say besides "I'm sorry", and that hardly seems good enough, knowing how it feels. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about my late parents.
Charles R. Whealton Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
A R Pickett - 17 Jul 2006 00:54 GMT All my sympathy Susan, to you, your family and friends.
Woodstock
ncgen - 18 Jul 2006 13:08 GMT Thank you everyone. During the days before she passed, she was not showing signs of pain or anything and remained calm. Although we had the meds on hand, she only received them a couple of times in the days before she passed both times being after a bath or repositioning. Her hospice aide was wonderful. She came to check on her and helped me bathe Della even on her days off and called repeatedly to the facility to check on her. The girl called her Granny and had known her at her old facility too. I was glad that she had someone so caring being with her during the day in the months before she passed.
Hubby is having a hard time. It didn't make it any easier that the minister who did her service kept referring to him as an orphan. Typically, we think of orphans as being children, but a friend of ours told me that after both his parents passed away last year, he felt that way even at 40. I'm hoping my husband will take advantage of the grief counseling that Hospice offers. He's never really dealt with losing his father and this has reopened all of those wounds.
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