Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / April 2006
Help with elder in need of care but starting to refuse care ?
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Peter - 14 Apr 2006 14:51 GMT What are the steps that one could take to deal with the need for some kind of determination that an elder should have some kind of intervention ?
If the person I am caring for all of a sudden does not want anyone with her, at all, what does one do ? It is clear that she needs someone, and could be in danger to herself. What if she just refuses to have anyone near her, but will have trouble that way ?
She is coming up with imaginary and threatening statements of what took place, but which has not taken place.
It could get dangerous for me if she calls the police and tells them something not true.
I don't know where to start to approach this. I have been handling it so far with love and care and my personal attention for a long time, but she has changed fairly dramatically recently, for the worse.
I have been taking care of her for quite a while and those who know her see how much she had improved since I had started more or less full time, a while back.
But now she seems to be coming up with untrue rememberings and if she will not let anyone in her house - I am concerned all around.
Whatever I eventually do, she will probably see it as a bad thing on my part and say bad things to whomever.
But basically I just want to know who to talk to and how to start dealing with this. The police ? A social worker ? I know I can walk into a police station, but beyond that I don't know where to go or what to do. She does not have any family remaining. I don't know if a person can just be allowed to live alone if they are not in good shape. Or if they should be required to go to someplace where there is a staff to look over them.
Peter notspam-sec4251@yahoo.com (remove the "notspam-")
Barb Terry - 14 Apr 2006 15:39 GMT Peter, My mom one time told the man who delivered her oxygen,that we were keeping her hostage and to please call the cops when he left.And yes i was a bit concerned whether or not he would.But on the other hand i think he could see she had alz.And no,the cops were not called.Good luck to you.But in situations like that i believe your pretty safe.Barb
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 14 Apr 2006 19:55 GMT I would start with her doctor - its clear there is something happening cognitively - what you are looking at is entirely consistent with a progressive dementia. She needs to be examined and diagnosed, if there is any way possible to get her seen. Depending on the underlying cause of her mental decline, there may be things that can be done to slow down the progress, reduce her delusions, paranoia and agitation. Its also very important that someone trusted have powers of attorney for financial and medical decisions as it is likely she will not be competent to sign legal documents much longer.
If that happens, you have to go to court to get guardianship and have her declared incompetent - which is expensive and can be ugly and upsetting.
She is going to get worse - if she's having delusions, your time to get things set is short (i.e. she's already advancing in her cognitive slip). I'd see about the doctor, and also consult a social worker ASAP.
Mary G.
Karen - 14 Apr 2006 23:47 GMT My MIL would not accept any help and wouldn't tolerate anyone staying around to help. She made many wild accusations to people around her, family, friends etc. One of her docs (a psychiatrist) insisted that we put her somewhere or he would and he helped us through the process. We had to collect letters from him and another doc that stated she was unable to live alone. Those letters were the basis for the legal docs (POAs, Living Trust, etc) to become active and that gave us the legal authority to take her to an Alz. facility with a locking door.
Yes, she pitched a fit. Somehow she managed to call several people including the police to report herself as abducted. After regular medication for about 3 weeks, she became much more rational, although she was never able to admit she had been in need of help before. And we remained villians in her eyes for quite a while after. If she had gotten on Risperdal sooner, we might have been able to avoid the trauma of tricking her into entering the locking area and leaving her there. It was very traumatic for her and us.
When my MIL was still living in her home town (before she advanced to the point that we could move her near us) we carried a copy of the letters from her various docs anytime we took her anywhere. You may want to obtain a similar letter from her doc stating her condition. It would protect you both because can you imagine if they were to separate the two of you and release her, by herself, assuming that she was competent? By the time you had it straightened out, she could be lost.
Mary had an VERY important point -- you have to have contingency plans in place (i.e. POAs) so she can be taken care of when she's no longer competent to speak for herself. Even if you plan to pay all the bills, you need a Medical POA to be able to make medical decisions. If these papers haven't been done yet, you may need to get her on Risperdal or something like it to stop the delusions so she will sign.
Hope this helps.
Karen
> What are the steps that one could take to deal with the need for some > kind of determination that an elder should have some kind of [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Peter > notspam-sec4251@yahoo.com (remove the "notspam-") Peter - 16 Apr 2006 09:23 GMT Mary and Karen, it does help. However, one significant difference is that you seemed to have an entire family on your side to support you. I am getting the impression that unlike almost any other aspect of society, that there is really no one who will step in and take over matters, or make some kind of determination which can be enacted or enforced. It seems to fall upon the individual who has been taking care of the person.
Nobody really likes to deal with a person who will not accept others helping them and is not in good shape mentally.
I guess key is researching extensively and getting everything set up in advance. And thus having one's ammunition dry and ready. That is going to take some time and some doing.
In the meantime, it is a very, very tough go.
This is an incomplete communication. I post this while I think further on what you contributed. Thanks, Peter
>My MIL would not accept any help and wouldn't tolerate anyone staying around >to help. She made many wild accusations to people around her, family, [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> Peter >> notspam-sec4251@yahoo.com (remove the "notspam-") Evelyn Ruut - 16 Apr 2006 11:59 GMT > Mary and Karen, it does help. > However, one significant difference is that you seemed to have an [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > This is an incomplete communication. I post this while I think further > on what you contributed. Thanks, Peter Peter it is the most difficult position to be in.
My mother in law had no clue she couldn't take care of herself anymore, and would not allow us to help her. It was awful, because we were waiting for a disaster to happen. Her neighbors were sort of looking after her, but she forgot how to walk the dog, how to shower and how to prepare herself food. She lost weight and neglected her teeth, her health, just everything.
We had to resort to trickery of a sort, but once we were able to get her to agree to come and "visit" us, we finally got it all sorted out and we just never took her back home. But the difference is that my husband is her son and her only child, and she did finally get proper paperwork in place allowing us to care for her.
For a non family member, it may just come to a place where she gets sick and can't get up off the floor, or somehow comes to the attention of the authorities in some manner. Maybe she will go for a walk and get lost and not be able to recall her address. Maybe she will turn on the stove and have a fire. Maybe anything. None of it good.
Like I said, it is the worst position to be in, because you want to help and can't. You can show up every day and pretend that she called you over and hope that her forgetfulness will carry you through. You can notify the local police that this is a person who may be in need of some help. But most of all you may need to get some legal advice from the office of the aging where you live, or from a lawyer (who will probably charge you for the time out of your own money, not hers).
I wish you luck. I know how awful it is, but there is not a lot you can do when the person trusts no one and isn't aware of their own deficits.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
>>My MIL would not accept any help and wouldn't tolerate anyone staying >>around [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] >>> Peter >>> notspam-sec4251@yahoo.com (remove the "notspam-") Alan Meyer - 17 Apr 2006 22:43 GMT > Mary and Karen, it does help. > However, one significant difference is that you seemed to have an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > determination which can be enacted or enforced. It seems to fall upon > the individual who has been taking care of the person. Unfortunately, I think that's right. Most or all of the people you might turn to for help will consider this to be yours and your relative's problem, not theirs. No one will be eager to take over responsibility.
Fortunately, you do care and are taking responsibility. So your relative is in far better shape than those poor people with no family or no one who cares.
I agree with others that you need to begin taking long term action to get your relative into a better place. The steps include:
Short term:
Talk to her doctor to get his opinion, and to find out if anti-psychotic or anti-depressant drugs will help with her immediate problem of paranoia and rejection of help. However even if you get such drugs prescribed, it may be difficult to get her to take them.
Longer term - but start right now:
Get a power of attorney for health care and finances. Any way you can get her signature on the forms is going to be worth doing and will lead to far less hassle than getting her declared incompetent. You can find some good power of attorney forms on the net, or see a lawyer - who will charge you a bunch of money, but may be able to give useful legal advice.
Get her declared incompetent if necessary. If you get the right powers of attorney, you may not need to do that.
Visit local Alzheimer's care establishments, getting prices, and forming your impressions of what are the best ones for your relative.
Find out what financial help might be available through Medicare, Medicaid, or other sources. Local social work agencies can help with this, but you often have to call three or four of them before you find somebody who is really knowledgeable and helpful (and who can likely give you advice on the other matters too.)
Make a budget.
When the time is right.
Arrange for her to be admitted to a facility. They may require that one of their staff members visit with her first to evaluate her - which can often be arranged by saying something like "Mom, this is Mrs. Smith, she's a [nurse, friend, person who knows a lot of people who can help you, whatever works], etc. The staff member will very likely be good at what she does and will set your relative at ease.
Drive your relative to the home, stay with her for a bit while she gets involved in something, then slip out.
Doing all this will tear your heart out. She will call you on the phone and demand to know why you did this to her, what did she ever do to you, why are you killing her?
I've been there and done that, cried, lost months of sleep, hated myself and the world.
My only consolation was the clear, irrefutable evidence that all of the alternatives were even worse.
Best of luck to you.
Alan
Evelyn Ruut - 17 Apr 2006 23:12 GMT >> Mary and Karen, it does help. >> However, one significant difference is that you seemed to have an [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Alan Alan, this was an excellent and heartfelt post. All true.
 Signature
Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
AZdesertman - 21 Apr 2006 00:42 GMT Peter, As a caregiver to an 80 year old: I will give you my experience: One day Patty was particularly irascible, she demand that I drive her over to her mother's house in Des Moines, Iowa! No easy feat, as we reside in Tucson, Arizona. The repetition continued all day. Finally, when I went to the bathroom she escaped... she was in the arms of neighbor down the street. Patty told the neighbor that I was holding her prisoner, and had beaten her to prevent her leaving and all she wanted to do was to go to her Mother's. A second neighbor joined in before I could arrive and they took Patty into the neighbor's house and locked the door. I tried to explain the situation to them, but they had already called 911. By the grace of God, the police officer who responded had 30 years of police work under his belt, and his mother also was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. He told me I was lucky a 21 year old cop didn't get the call. Because, I would have been arrested for assault and battery, and Elder abuse (a separate crime in Arizona) just based on Patty's statements. He "interviewed" Patty in my presence and asked her what had happened, she first said I punched her, he said, "I don't see any marks or bruising Ma'am." She changed the story 4 more times, each time his reply was the same. She then told the Officer that he was as big of an a.shole as I was. At that point the Officer escorted her home. He then instructed me to get a letter from her Doctor, which I did and the Doctor was very cooperative. He stated , on his letterhead, that Patty was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and Dementia and that she was delusional at times claiming to having been physically abused, but that in fact she was in very good hands with me and that all claims of abuse should be ignored. The officer instructed me to have Patty's Daughter make a statement in writing that I was Patty's caregiver and was in charge of Patty's day to day affairs and seeing to her wellbeing and that the letter needed to be "Notarized." I have these letters in my possession at all times. I am now indemnified, protected and able to carry on my duties without fear of personal jeopardy.
Whatever else you decide to do, regarding treatments, settings, doctors: you must first protect yourself! Good Luck
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