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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / April 2006

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wheelchair for dad?

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KatelynRain - 30 Mar 2006 19:55 GMT
My dad is 85 and in early stage alz. For quite some time now, he's had
trouble walking. Part of it is his knees are really bad from arthritis. His
doctor talked to him about knee replacement surgery years ago, but he
rejected that. The other part of the problem is that he has heart trouble
and has what the cardiologist told us is poor ejection fraction. It means
his heart isn't pumping as much oxygenated blood as his body needs. The
result of this is he tires and gets winded easily when walking--I'm talking
sometimes a matter of feet.

He's also a little unsteady on his feet. He's had a few falls in the last
couple of years, and has gotten hurt some of those times. A fall in his
bathroom a couple of years ago caused 3 broken ribs. He has a cane, but he
really doesn't use it. He says it trips him up. Truthfully, it's not really
sufficient anyway, although my sister thinks it would be better than
nothing, that at least it would steady him better. All his doctors have
talked to him about getting a walker and/or companion wheelchair. The
wheelchair would come in handy for outings or to go any kind of distance,
like getting to a doctor appointment in the hospital. He staunchly rejects
those options too. He says he doesn't want to "be a cripple"---probably the
skewed logic of the alz. disease process--as if using a wheelchair or walker
makes one a "cripple", not that his walking impairment necessitates the use
of an aid.

For a short time within the last year, he was a little improved. The
rheumotologist got him on some medication that helped a lot to ease the pain
w/ walking, and the cardiologist got his cardiac medications working
effectively, improving his cardiac output. He wasn't great, but he was
walking a little better, w/ less stress and struggle. Unfortunately, that
was temporary. In recent weeks, he's deteriorated and the same
symptoms--getting winded and tiring easily and the knee pain when
walking--have returned. He likes going out--if he's up to it, which some
days he isn't. My 2 sisters and I are taking turns looking in on him and
helping him with the practical tasks of daily life, like food shopping and
personal shopping. Sometimes we shop for him ourselves, but the problem is,
he won't agree to let us do all his shopping for him. He insists on being in
control of selection of food and clothing--it's important to him. So my 1
sister and I take him grocery shopping every week--which ever one of us is
available, once or twice a week. Believe me, getting him to agree to this
was a huge concession on his part. By his own admission, walking around the
store is easier for him than walking elsewhere because he uses the shopping
cart as a support--the principle behind a walker. He still gets winded
though and we catch him sometimes stopped in the middle of an aisle, leaning
way over the cart, "resting." It's kind of scary. I'm just waiting for the
day he keels over and paramedics must be summoned.

Shopping w/ him is an interesting and slightly comical experience though.
He's funny. He gets the sales ads that come out in the paper every week and
the lady who comes in to help him around the house 3x a week helps him make
up his shopping list based on what's on sale that appeals to him, and of
course on what he needs or really wants, whether it's on sale or not.
Somehow, having those ads to look through really helps his mind organize to
get a list put together. I don't know why, but it works. Then he has her
make a copy and, when we go shopping, he gives the other person (my sister
or me) the copy and he assigns us to get all the things on one half of the
list, and he says he'll do the other half. Of course, inevitably, he ends up
getting things on both sides of the list and then I have to run around
putting the extra items back. Ugh!

Last week when I took him shopping, I was rushing through the aisles
returning all the duplicate items to the shelves and he got into the
check-out line and had the cashier page me because he "couldn't figure out
what happened" to me. LOL! I guess I consider it lucky he didn't forget I
was with him and just leave on his own. One time, he got through the
check-out line while this was going on and he went to the service desk and
asked the asst. manager to call him a cab to go home. Luckily, we always
take him to the same store in the neighborhood where the whole staff know
him and understand the situation. When that happened, the asst. manager
asked him "didn't you come with your daughter? Oh there she is!"

Reading his list is often difficult as it's not always clear what he means,
and often things will show up twice on the list. What I think is happening
is that he insists that the woman helping him write down things the way he
tells her even when she tries to use logic on him. She has the patience of a
saint, I must say. But the surprising thing is I'm amazed at how most of the
time the information on the list, in terms of what's oin sale and the
prices, are accurate. He's so confused about so many other things, it amazes
me that he's able to get the list right as much as it is.

Anyway, I try also to get him out for lunch and sometimes a movie once a
week when ever possible. He loves movies and he loves going out to eat, and
it's an outing and activity he can do that doesn't take walking once we get
there. But the getting there and back is more of a problem all the time.
Even places that have adjoining parking lots and I can get a handicapped
space as near to the entrance as possible, it's still always far enough a
distance to get to and from the car that it's a problem. The most he will
allow is for me to come around and take his arm for support as we go along
slowly. Getting to accept even this much help from me was a big concession
for him. But in the last few weeks, even this has become too big an
obstacle. His walking is so bad now, and so precarious, it's just not
practical to walk even a short distance w/ him. We went to a movie and lunch
afterwards (there's a couple of theaters in the area that offer really early
matinees, and that's all that works for him because he's zonked by 4 pm)
last Fri. and he loved the movie (Thank You For Smoking) and he enjoyed
lunch (by blessed happenstance, there's a nice restaurant next to the movie
theater so it could not have been more convenient), but getting into the
theater and to and from the car parked a short distance away was an ordeal.
As if the walking isn't bad enough, his pants were loose on him and kept
slipping down and he had to keep pulling them up as we went along. My sister
took him out last year and bought him 3 pairs of new pants measured to fit
him properly, and a new belt. I don't believe he's lost any weight since
then, so the pants should still fit him. I asked which pair he was wearing
and he said they're his tightest ones. He also wasn't wearing the belt. I
asked him why and he said he couldn't find it--the lady who cleans must've
:"hidden it". When I got him home, I went up w/ him and found the belt in
his room pretty quickly. It's frustrating.

This is an instance where it would've been really convenient to have a
companion wheelchair. I could've folded it and stashed it in the car, then
pulled it out when I parked the car and wheeled him from the car into the
theater, which is completely accessible. I tried to talk to him about this
as calmly and casually as I could after the movie, over lunch. As always, he
instantly rebelled against the suggestion, refusing even to listen. He
starts singing loudly--a song w/ "dirty words" he remembers from his army
days. Of all things to remember w/ perfect recall! LOL! He does this
deliberately to embarrass me so that I'll shut up. I tried to get him to see
how much simpler and safer it would be for him and for me if we had a
stowable wheelchair for moments like this, but he wouldn't even listen.

That evening, I spoke to both my sisters on the phone and reported the
situation. Both are aware of the problem and have observed it themselves. We
had a long talk about what to do, but could not reach a consensus. Dee Dee,
the older sister--the one who shares the shopping trips w/ me--thinks we
should start w/ a walker and delay the wheelchair idea for the time being.
Delphi, the middle sister, agrees w/ me that he should have the companion
wheelchair for any type of "outing" and says we should just all go in on it
together, buy it for him, present it to him, and "threaten" that we won't
take him out w/ us anywhere if he refuses to let us bring it along and to
use it. She thinks a walker is a good idea too, and suggests we buy that for
him as well.

My reaction is multi-fold. First, I think he would benefit from both a
walker and a wheelchair, but I know darn well he won't accept a walker any
more cheerfully than he will the wheelchair. Second, while the walker offers
advantages the wheelchair doesn't (mainly steadying him when he gets up or
down and allows him to feel more ambulatory), it will do nothing to address
him getting winded and tiring, which results from his heart trouble. Third,
while I in no way object to spending my money on a gift for him, I don't
agree w/ the idea of buiying him these items. He has the money for such
purchases and also has insurance coverage. He would need to make the
purchase himself to get the insurance to pay. Delphi knows that but thinks
it would be worth the money to us to force the issue on him. We can purchase
the walker and wheelchair and simply present it to him, while we can't
"force" him to buy something for himself he doesn't want.

Also, I dislike the idea of using emotional blackmail on him to get him to
comply w/ our dictates. If we say "you do this or else we never take you out
again" all it will succeed in doing, IMO, is getting him very angry and very
hurt, and it's not even practical. If we do it and he still refuses the
wheelchair and walker, will we really not take him anywhere again? We'll
just leave him to fend for himself? Not very practical or realistic.

Delphi wants us to get together w/ him at the same time and use the
"intervention" approach. Dee Dee refuses to be any part of that and says she
thinks we should just keep talking to him about it individually and maybe
we'll get through to him at some point. But we've been doing that for years
now, and his doctors have been telling him the same thing repeatedly too for
just as long, and it's not making a dent.

My husband, who went through this w/ his own dad for years up until his
dad's death last year (and it really stinks that we have to go through this
all over again), doesn't like the "intervention" approach either, but
suggests this: next time I take him out anywhere, get a folding wheelchair
to rent for the day ($5/day) from our local pharmacy, stick it in the car
and "surprise" him w/ it when we park and get out. He thinks if the chair
"appears" when it's most needed, my dad will see the benefit of it and will
allow me to push him in the chair to our destination. He thinks I should
then begin doing this each time, which he believes will get my dad gradually
introduced to the idea of using the wheelchair for such occasions, and that
he'll then see the wisdom in buying one to have on hand instead of us
renting one each time.

I see his point, and it could be a great solution...it's just that I also
see the distinct possibility that I do this and dad will go ballistic when I
pull out the wheelchair the first time and be totally insulted and furious.
He'll refuse to use it and make a terrible scene. He's capable of that.

So the options as I see them are as follows:

1. Delphi and I go to dad's together and essentially "confront" him on the
issue, insisting that he agree to either a walker, companion chair or both.
We play "tough love"  and give him an ultimatum, or we don't...if we do, he
very well may take it badly and we'll accomplish nothing. If we don't, it's
quite possible that he'll say as he's always said before that he won't
consider it and we need to mind our own business;

2. We go in on a wheelchair and/or walker together and present it/them to
him, along w/ a bill to reimburse us that he may or may not pay. If he
refuses to reimburse us (which I know he would insist on doing if he accepts
the purchases), we leave the walker and chair w/ him anyway and write it off
as an expedient way of solving our problem. He may or may not agree to keep
it/them or use it/them;

3. We take the soft ball approach and keep bringing the issue up
individually when a convenient moment arises and hope that maybe,
eventually, the "wearing down" approach will produce results. So far, that
approach has not worked;

4. My husband's suggestion that I rent a wheelchair from my local pharmacy
next time I take him out somewhere, and any time after that, hoping it will
appeal to him more when there's an immediate need in front of him and that
this may gradually get him comfortable with the idea of buying one to have
on hand when he needs it. The down side: dad may pitch a fit on the scene if
I "surprise" him like this. A modification of that plan would be to talk to
him on the phone about renting the chair before I come by so as not to take
him by surprise and limit his possible outrage to a private discussion on
the phone, not a public scene. Down side of that: he'll probably say :"No
way!", and then what?;

5. Some other option none of us have thought of yet.

<sigh> In some ways, we're in the worst possible stage of this disease. He's
just feeble-minded enough to exacerbate every other problem he has and make
finding solutions a lot more complicated, but still copis mentis enough that
we can't force our will on him and make decisions for him whether he likes
it or not. That's not just an assumption either...we've talked to a couple
of attornies about this. He's given POA to my 2 sisters IF he becomes
incapacitated, but he's not yet incompetent enough to enforce POA. So, at
this stage, it is a careful, difficult dance around all these heavily loaded
issues. In short, it's a tough spot.

I'm sorry this has run on so long. I didn't mean it to starting out. I
wanted to give everyone reading a comprehensive picture of the situation.
It's frustrating and worrisome and stressful. Maybe that's why I ran on a
bit. I hope no one here will hold it against me.

So, how about it? Anyone have any thoughts? (thanks in advance)

~katelyn~
Gwen Love - 30 Mar 2006 22:02 GMT
Katelyn, you are right in that you are at the worst time with your dad.  He
either knows too much or he doesn't know enough.  Either way, he wants to do
just exactly what he wants to do, and nothing else.  I think I agree with
your husband about renting a wheelchair and spring it on him when you get
where he needs to walk.  If he makes a scene, just try not to be embarrassed
about it.  You know he is sick so don't worry about what anyone else will
think.
I had to do that with Grayson when we went out to eat.  I had to cut his
food, but a bib on him and sometimes wipe food off the bib and his lap, and
help him sit down and get up, etc.  I just ignored everyone else who was
around and did what I needed to do.  You'll find that you and your sisters
will have to make decisions for him whether he likes it or not; he is not
capable of making good decisions about his care now. It is a hard row to
hoe, but good luck to you in getting through it all.
Gwen

> My dad is 85 and in early stage alz. For quite some time now, he's had
> trouble walking. Part of it is his knees are really bad from arthritis.
[quoted text clipped - 229 lines]
>
> ~katelyn~
KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 04:38 GMT
> Katelyn, you are right in that you are at the worst time with your dad.
> He either knows too much or he doesn't know enough.  Either way, he wants
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and help him sit down and get up, etc.  I just ignored everyone else who
> was around and did what I needed to do.

I'm not at all worried what strangers on the street or in a public place
will think. Certainly public scenes are highly unpleasant and no one is
oblivious to the embarrassment of them. My real concern is that my dad will
simply refuse to use the chair if I pull it out of the car and direct him
into it. He could get really angry and try to run off. He did that once
before when I was out w/ him. I can't exactly shove him in the chair and get
him to sit still while I push him to wherever we're going. I want to find a
way that's most likely to win his compliance.

> You'll find that you and your sisters will have to make decisions for him
> whether he likes it or not; he is not capable of making good decisions
> about his care now. It is a hard row to hoe, but good luck to you in
> getting through it all.

Thanks, Gwen. I appreciate your caring.

~katelyn~
Tumbleweed - 01 Apr 2006 08:37 GMT
> I'm not at all worried what strangers on the street or in a public place
> will think. Certainly public scenes are highly unpleasant and no one is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and get him to sit still while I push him to wherever we're going. I want
> to find a way that's most likely to win his compliance.

Katelyn, there may not be one. There will come a time that he cant get to
the supermarket. Maybe this is it. It will happen sometime.

Alternatively, if his memory is long enough that he can remember an
agreement between the time you make it before you get in the car, and the
time you get to the supermarket, then you could simply issue an ultimatum,
that because of his difficulties getting around, you'll wheel him in the
supermarket, and if he's not up for that, you'll go by yourself.

In the immortal words of the Rolling Stones
"You cant always get what you want"

Good luck whatever you do, but bear in mind that going along with his wishes
seems likely, from what you say, to end up with a collapse in the
supermarket.

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 13:42 GMT
>> I can't exactly shove him in the chair and get him to sit still while I
>> push him to wherever we're going. I want to find a way that's most likely
>> to win his compliance.

> Katelyn, there may not be one. There will come a time that he cant get to
> the supermarket. Maybe this is it. It will happen sometime.

It may be that we'll have to end his trips to the supermarket now. There are
other places we take him. Maybe he can't go to movies or out to lunch
anymore either.

> Alternatively, if his memory is long enough that he can remember an
> agreement between the time you make it before you get in the car, and the
> time you get to the supermarket, then you could simply issue an ultimatum,
> that because of his difficulties getting around, you'll wheel him in the
> supermarket, and if he's not up for that, you'll go by yourself.

In some ways, the supermarket is a more difficult problem than our outings
to movies or restuarants. No way can I push him in a wheelchair and push a
grocery cart around the store. Of course, we could schedule the shopping for
when his aide comes in, so she could push him while I or my sister push the
cart. When I take him to a movie or lunch, OTOH, I only have to focus on
getting him there and back. Maybe the middle sister is right then when she
says we have to tell him "you do it my way or we don't go."

> In the immortal words of the Rolling Stones
> "You cant always get what you want"

I realize that.

> Good luck whatever you do, but bear in mind that going along with his
> wishes seems likely, from what you say, to end up with a collapse in the
> supermarket.

Or on the street, or in the movie theater, etc. Yeah, I got that.

~katelyn~
Beth Heimlich - 01 Apr 2006 18:31 GMT
Katelyn,  Please reply to me privately.  I got a Permanent Failure reply
in attempting to contact you.
Beth
Tumbleweed - 01 Apr 2006 19:54 GMT
> In some ways, the supermarket is a more difficult problem than our outings
> to movies or restuarants. No way can I push him in a wheelchair and push a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> focus on getting him there and back. Maybe the middle sister is right then
> when she says we have to tell him "you do it my way or we don't go."

I think she is spot on the ball.

FWIW here in the UK we have special shopping carts (we call them 'trolleys'
here :-) which clip on to wheelchairs, so you have the wheelchair with the
'trolley' in front so you only have one thing to push. I take it they havent
been invented in the US....maybe an opportunity for a budding businesslady?

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Beth Heimlich - 31 Mar 2006 00:12 GMT
Katelyn,  My sympathies, the early stages of Alz. or dementia can be the
hardest.  Your Dad is of the generation that tends to resist help.
Personally, I think it's because all their lives they've thought of
"those" things as demeaning and by God, that wasn't going to happen to
them, no matter what.  So now, they feel everyone will think of them as
they thought of others...when that's not the case.  So especially men
will not listen to all the reason in the world-especially from "mere"
daughters.  Early stage dementia is particularly well-known for not
being able to recognize their own needs, and we know reasoning doesn't
work well.

 My suggestion is to enlist the "help" of his docs-particularly the
cardiologist.  Coming from authority might do the trick...although he
can "forget".  Depending on the numbers...his cardiac status will most
likely substantiate a need for a wheelchair from Medicare.  Although, I
must say that the qualifying criteria can be interpreted differently by
vendors from day to day  Thus you're going to need an MD's
justification.  When you get his doctor to write something like "must
use wheelchair for distances greater than 20' or whatever....then you
can bring it out when he forgets.  I'd also check around for a loan
closet...many times that works better than all the other fuss--for
wheelchairs and walkers.  And if by any chance he gets hospitalized,
address it at discharge...because that's an opportune time.

My guess, is he will remember and resent you and your siblings
"interference".  Better from the doctor or someone he'll take it from.
Some docs are fine with this role, others could care less.  I hope yours
are the first kind.

Best wishes.
Beth, Physical Therapist in Maryland
KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 05:27 GMT
> Katelyn,  My sympathies, the early stages of Alz. or dementia can be the
> hardest.  Your Dad is of the generation that tends to resist help.
> Personally, I think it's because all their lives they've thought of
> "those" things as demeaning and by God, that wasn't going to happen to
> them, no matter what.

Yep. That's it in a nutshell.

>  My suggestion is to enlist the "help" of his docs-particularly the
> cardiologist.  Coming from authority might do the trick...although he can
> "forget".

The doctors *have* been strongly advising him to start using a walker, and
have talked to him about the wheelchair idea for when he's out. All of them
bring it up when they see him, and for a long time now. He just won't hear
of it. He did finally accept a cane and took it out w/. him a few times but
now just leaves it in the closet. He complains it "trips him up" and I don't
think it was helping him much anyway.

>  Depending on the numbers...his cardiac status will most likely
> substantiate a need for a wheelchair from Medicare.  Although, I must say
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> distances greater than 20' or whatever....then you can bring it out when
> he forgets.

Any of the doctors would order it, no problem. I doubt there would be any
problem getting coverage for it, but it would have to be his coverage. If we
buy it, no way can any of us bill our insurance. My oldest sister is helping
him w/ his bills, so maybe she could submit it for him. Anyway, the money is
not really the issue. If it came down to it, he could pay for it out of his
pocket. He has the money for it.

I think it will come down to forcing it on him and getting it out each time
we go anywhere w/ him. Maybe we can convince him he agreed before he would
use it but must have forgotten. He knows he can't remember things. Oddly
enough, though, he frequently surprises me w/ what he does remember.

> I'd also check around for a loan closet...many times that works better
> than all the other fuss--for wheelchairs and walkers.  And if by any
> chance he gets hospitalized, address it at discharge...because that's an
> opportune time.

Now that's a great suggestion! Usually, he goes into the hospital for
something every year. It's very likely he'll have an admission again in the
next few months. Of course, it might be for getting hurt falling down
somewhere.  : (

> My guess, is he will remember and resent you and your siblings
> "interference".

Yep! That's just the kind of thing he *does* remember! He hangs on to
perceived insults and slights, reminding us of them repeatedly when he sees
us, for months until they fade from memory at last. He loves going to the
movies, though more and more I realize he understands what's happening in
them less and less, and won't remember what we've seen a day or a week
later. Yet it surprises me that some of it does stick in his mind sometimes.
He loved a movie I took him to a year ago--Sideways. He doesn't really
remember it anymore, but every now and again he'll say, "I loved that movie
w/ the woman who ran down the street naked." I know what he means. As it
happens, it wasn't a woman in the scene. It was a naked man. But there was
some female nudity in it and he liked that better...but he remembers the man
running out of the house naked and confuses it w/ the women he saw naked in
the movie. Another interesting thing...he tells me repeatedly he sees a lady
dcotor on TV and she's the same one who ran down the street naked in that
movie he loved. It took me a while, but I finally realized he's talking
about the actress, Sandra Oh. She plays a doctor on ABC's "Grey's Anatomy"
and she was indeed in the movie Sideways and is shown partially naked,
briefly. He's got the details confused but it amazes me he sees her on TV
and makes the connection between her and this movie he saw over a year ago.

>  Better from the doctor or someone he'll take it from. Some docs are fine
> with this role, others could care less.  I hope yours are the first kind.

His doctors care a lot and all of them seem like the sort who would go the
distance to help their patients. The trouble is, all of them have talked to
him about this and have urged him in the strongest possible terms that he
needs to begin using a walker, and a wheelchair for longer distances. They
have warned him repeatedly of the risk to him if he refuses this necessary
aid. I think we're past the point of discussing it w/ him and advising him.
It's obvious we need to step up the pressure and find a more effective way
of addressing the issue. I don't think his doctors can do anything more. It
looks like it may be up to the family to play the heavy here. We're going to
have to find some way to force it on him.

Thanks for your input, Beth.

~katelyn~
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 31 Mar 2006 01:42 GMT
What about one of these walkers with a cargo basket and a seat, so the
person can sit down when they get tired?

http://www.allegromedical.com/walkers_canes_crutches/4_3_wheeled_walkers/invacar
e/sandstorm_rollator.P189004


M
KatelynRain - 31 Mar 2006 02:52 GMT
<Mary_Gordon wrote:
> What about one of these walkers with a cargo basket and a seat, so the
> person can sit down when they get tired?

Thanks, Mary. I've seen those walkers before and they *are* very nice. But I
guess my concern isn't so much what *kind* of walker or wheelchair to get
him as it is the best way to get him to accept it. And I still think a
walker will not resolve the problem of getting him to and from parking lots
and buildings, like movie theaters, restaurants and doctor offices. He's
getting winded every 10 ft. or so. It's just not practical to have him sit
and rest every 10 ft. It's not an efficient way to deal with his mobility
problem. And anyway, I don't agree w/ my older sister that a walker is going
to be less objectionable to him than a wheelchair. He says both things are
for "cripples". <sigh> Guess what dad?

~katelyn~
Evelyn Ruut - 31 Mar 2006 04:55 GMT
> <Mary_Gordon wrote:
>> What about one of these walkers with a cargo basket and a seat, so the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> ~katelyn~

Hi Katelyn,

My son picked up a really nice used wheelchair at a fleamarket a few years
ago for my mother when she was still alive.   When my mother-in-law came to
live with us later on, we asked my dad about it.   By then, my mom had
already passed away, and my dad told me he was keeping it in case he ever
might need it for himself oneday in the future.    Luckily my son found
another one at the fleamarket, and it needed only a couple of small parts
that we picked up very cheaply, so we were OK.

What I am thinking is that you might do as some have suggested.... try and
enlist the doctor to suggest that for any distance over so many feet he
might find it easier to use a wheelchair, and if that doesn't seem to fly,
you or your sister might try and pick up a used one inexpensively somewhere.

Since your dad is rather frugal minded (I gathered that from the coupon
clipping etc.)  that might seem more acceptable to him.   If you told him
you got it free or very cheaply, and it was already there, he might be less
inclined to make a fuss about it.

It is so difficult dealing with someone whose pride won't let them
understand their own limitations, I know.   My dad is in the same boat, but
he hasn't got alzheimers, he is just very old and he doesn't like to have to
admit that he isn't as strong, smart or capable as he was when he was young.
We are confronting it in one way or another all the time.   Fortunately he
still has enough mental capacity that it isn't as difficult as dealing with
as my mother in law who was, who definitely did have alzheimers.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Lesanne - 31 Mar 2006 23:25 GMT
I got Mom into it at first by telling her that I wanted to be able to get
extra help in the __________ (wherever we were going) and that we were late
and had to go fast. I bought a used one at a garage sale, put it in the
trunk, and when I wanted her in it I placed it by the door of the car, and
told here "sit in this, we are late and they will let us go first if you are
in this..."

Signature

Lesanne

>
>> <Mary_Gordon wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> as dealing with as my mother in law who was, who definitely did have
> alzheimers.
Dennis P. Harris - 31 Mar 2006 05:35 GMT
> I'm just waiting for the
> day he keels over and paramedics must be summoned.

why?  wouldn't it be more merciful to him to die of cardiac
arrest than for him to suffer a slow deterioration that will only
make him unhappier?   you should ask him NOW whether he wants to
be resuscitated if that happens.  the answer may surprise you.
KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 03:07 GMT
>> I'm just waiting for the
>> day he keels over and paramedics must be summoned.

> why?  wouldn't it be more merciful to him to die of cardiac
> arrest than for him to suffer a slow deterioration that will only
> make him unhappier?   you should ask him NOW whether he wants to
> be resuscitated if that happens.  the answer may surprise you.

Funny, how you know next to nothing about me, my father and the details of
our lives, yet you jump in quickly w/ numerous presumptions about all these
things.

For one thing, you wrongly interpret my sentence. I never said "I live in
dread of the day my father keels over dead in the supermarket." What I said
was what appears above. The 2 statements represent very different thoughts.

For another thing, you wrongly presume that if he keels over in the
supermarket it would mean sudden death. In fact, there are many other
possible scenarios, and many of them could be very bad--much less merciful
than sudden death. A large percentage of elderly who fall end up with
serious injuries that result in all sorts of complications that impede
quality of life and can mean days, weeks, even months of pain and suffering.
I would say that's something certainly to fear--and to try to prevent--for
someone one loves.

Finally, you presume that decisions like resuscitation and such have not
been made, or that I'm not privy to them. In fact, this discussion and its
decisions were held and made a long time ago, the papers are drawn up,
signed and filed, and all of us are aware of my father's wishes, and we're
in agreement. Certainly I have no intention of sharing the details of any of
this w/ you, however.

Next time you feel the impulse to charge in to lecture someone--a pasttime
you seem to relish--you might take a moment to reflect on how you put your
foot in your mouth and made a giant jackass of yourself in this discussion.

~katelyn~
Dennis P. Harris - 31 Mar 2006 05:42 GMT
> Dee Dee,
> the older sister--the one who shares the shopping trips w/ me--thinks we
> should start w/ a walker and delay the wheelchair idea for the time being.

ask anyone with an AD LO who tried.  it won't work.  HE CANNOT
LEARN NEW THINGS.  he will NOT remember that he needs to use,
even if he finally agrees that he does.

you are going to have to learn to take charge and be the parent.
the simplest way is to tell him that if he wants to go out, he
has to use the wheelchair or there won't be any outings.
period.  all of you need to agree on this, and agree to be firm
about it.  you also need to get all of his medical folks and
caregivers saying the same thing --- "it's not safe for you to to
walk, you're too weak, and the doctor said you MUST use the
wheelchair."
KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 03:31 GMT
>> My older sister--the one who shares the shopping trips w/ me--thinks we
>> should start w/ a walker and delay the wheelchair idea for the time
>> being.

> ask anyone with an AD LO who tried.

Oh what's this? Is Dennis P. Harris, NG guru and net posting expert, using
short-hand terms in his post? Don't you know that doing that is irritating
and distracts from your message, and is a sure way to end up in everyone's
killfile?? I instruct you in my superior wisdom to spell out every word.

> it won't work.  HE CANNOT
> LEARN NEW THINGS.  he will NOT remember that he needs to use,
> even if he finally agrees that he does.

Also, you're using too many upper-case words in your post, which on usenet
is considered shouting and very bad netiquette. In fact, using upper-case
letters in ordinary words in the middle of sentences is a way bigger and
more widely recognized usenet taboo than using shorthand. If you want to
emphasize a word, the usenet accepted method is to place an asterik or
underscore bar before and after the word. Example: *emphasize* or
_emphasize_

And why don't you use upper-case letters to begin your sentences? Don't you
know that's bad grammar?? Please type the way sensible people type!

I'm snipping the advice part of your reply as it is totally irrelevant.
Whatever wisdom you might have had to share is rendered completely worthless
in the face of the egregious posting sins you have committed.

Don't say you didn't have it coming.

~katelyn~
Dennis P. Harris - 31 Mar 2006 05:45 GMT
> Delphi wants us to get together w/ him at the same time and use the
> "intervention" approach. Dee Dee refuses to be any part of that and says she
> thinks we should just keep talking to him about it individually and maybe
> we'll get through to him at some point. But we've been doing that for years
> now, and his doctors have been telling him the same thing repeatedly too for
> just as long, and it's not making a dent.

they are right.  your sister is in denial.  she thinks that logic
will work, and that he can think rationally, which is NOT true.
PLEASE buy her a copy of "the 36 hour day" and make sure that she
reads it, or simply ignore her if she won't help.
KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 04:16 GMT
>> Delphi wants us to get together w/ him at the same time and use the
>> "intervention" approach. Dee Dee refuses to be any part of that and says
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> for
>> just as long, and it's not making a dent.

> they are right.  your sister is in denial.  she thinks that logic
> will work, and that he can think rationally, which is NOT true.

Then explain to me if you will, Oh Wise One, how the doctors are right and
my sister is wrong when the doctors are doing the same thing my sister (and
the rest of us) has been doing in regard to this issue--telling him
repeatedly that he needs to do this? I said in my story that my other sister
and I don't agree that this approach will work, as it has not so far, and
that more forceful measures are needed. My sister Dee Dee is *not* in
denial--she knows the score. She just doesn't agree w/ the suggestion of an
intervention approach. She wants to go for a gentler, lower key approach,
which obviously won't work, but I can hardly blame her for dreading w/ a
sick fear the idea we start bludgeoning our father over the head with the
harsh reality of his heartbreaking situation. He's mentally impaired, no
question, but he's not so far gone yet that he can't make any decsions for
himself. Naturally, all of us (his doctors included) want to allow him the
right to some degree of self-determination for as long as he can handle it.
I think we all realize that we're fast approaching the point of no return on
that one, but none of us are in a rush to get there, and there's the
question of how to go about it. We'd like to accomplish it in the manner
least traumatic to our father. That's why I was asking for ideas.

> PLEASE buy her a copy of "the 36 hour day" and make sure that she
> reads it, or simply ignore her if she won't help.

"Ignore her", you say? Oh great advice! My sisters and I are working as a
team to manage my father's care and disease, clearly a concept foreign to
you. I don't imagine you can work as a team w/ anyone. My sister is showing
some weakness in confronting this problem forcefully, but she's devoted to
my father and does the lion's share of helping him with everything that now
requires assistance, and has taken the lead numerous times in taking on
difficult discussions and decision making. This is breaking her heart, as
it's breaking all of our hearts.

Also, you really are big on presumptions, aren't you? We've all read that
"36 Hour" book. You talk like you know everything. Really, you don't know
much.

~katelyn~
Dennis P. Harris - 01 Apr 2006 06:53 GMT
> "Ignore her", you say? Oh great advice! My sisters and I are working as a
> team to manage my father's care and disease, clearly a concept foreign to
> you. I don't imagine you can work as a team w/ anyone.

it's obvious you will never ever pay attention to anything i say,
so you're now in my killfile.  you can now post with all the cute
U's and unjustified hostility you want, and i won't read or
respond to any of it.

and yes, i had a very good final caregiving team with my siblings
when, after i was primary caregiver for my mother for almost ten
years, they finally decided to come help me in her final month of
illness.

i am also part of a very fine employee team at my workplace;  my
fellow employees appreciate my contributions to the team very
much, as i appreciate theirs.  

i agree that it would not be good if your father fell, but your
post sounded as if your worst fear was that he would have a
cardiac arrest in the supermarket, not a fall.  you might want to
learn how to better express your thoughts, stop posting with cute
use of abbreviations, and stop taking offense when folks try to
post with helpful or useful information.  this is usenet, where
folks are often blunt and to the point.  if the information
posted in reply to a query is not useful, it's better to ignore
whatever you find irrelevant and move on.

PLONK.
KatelynRain - 01 Apr 2006 22:56 GMT
**PLONK** 2 U 2 f***head

U R in my killfile 2

What a jerk.
Evelyn Ruut - 01 Apr 2006 23:13 GMT
> **PLONK** 2 U 2 f***head
>
> U R in my killfile 2
>
> What a jerk.

Dear Katelyn,

I know you can't really relate to what I am saying, but Dennis isn't at all
like what you think he is.  I guess it is just his style you don't care for,
but the truth is that Dennis gives pretty honest, straightforward advice.
I hope you rethink your bad impression of him at some point.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

June - 31 Mar 2006 15:48 GMT
Hi Katelyn........I think the hardest part of this illness for some people
is the fact that now they have to be the parent.   My mother's dementia has
been going on for over 12 years now and brother finds it difficult to accept
this role.   He has durable power of attorney but really is in over his
head.   He still tries to find logical answers for her actions.
I think that you're trying to use logic on a person with a mental illness.
It's tough when you want them to keep their dignity and independence.   You
know in your heart what you must do but can't bring yourself to do it.   If
you don't feel this is the case then perhaps you're still in denial.   Most
of us have been there especially in the beginning.   I know this isn't what
you want to hear but sugar coating it won't make it any easier to swallow.
Sometimes when I wonder what I should do, I just think about what I would
want done if it were me.   It helps a little.........June
Sparky - 01 Apr 2006 13:32 GMT
I had the same problem with Mom not wanting to use the wheelchair. I
bought one used at a yard sale and put it in the car. The first time I
brought it out, she refused and started off to the store without me.
Without it, she would tire quickly and our shopping trip would be cut
short. The lady who sat with Mom volunteered to help me. We went
shopping and she presented Mom with the wheelchair. Only she called it
the "little chair." She told her how much better it would be to go
through the store being pushed around in a "little chair." She sat
right down and into the store we went. It helped too that she saw
others her age using the store-provided wheelchair. After that, I never
called it a wheelchair. I asked her if she would like to sit in the
"little chair" and got no problems from her. Sometimes it helps to
enlist the assistance of someone outside to help. Mom would do for her
caregiver better than she would for me. Of course I also never called
the lady who sat with her a caregiver in Mom's presence. She was just a
friend who came to spend some time with her.
 
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