Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / March 2006
My dad in no rush to update will
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Just Me - 25 Mar 2006 16:25 GMT My dad had almost got sucked into setting up a trust for several thousand dollars, but I managed to talk him out of it and he got his money back. Now he won't go forward and get something done with local attorneys. He filled out paperwork for estate planning but he doesn't think he needs to do that. He last updated mom and his wills almost 40 years ago. Mom has alz and he has no power of attorney for either of them, not medical or financial. My sister was named executrix but he said she and I are to get equal shares of everything. He does not have his house set up as joint tenancy for my sister and I, which I think means that if she were to die (my sister) she could pass half the house to her kids instead of to me. My dad is so stubborn and not very good at planning. They don't ever have a burial signt as yet. I think he is just so exasperated with my mom and dealing with her 24/7. Any suggestions?
Evelyn Ruut - 25 Mar 2006 16:54 GMT > My dad had almost got sucked into setting up a trust for several thousand > dollars, but I managed to talk him out of it and he got his money back. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > her > 24/7. Any suggestions? There is always so much difficulty in getting these things accomplished, and they are SOOOO important, especially if one partner has alzheimers, but they are important for everyone.
If I were you I wouldn't push too hard, because that is how to make him get his feet dug in even harder to resist.
Wait a bit, then make only a gentle suggestion.
Look around in the meantime to find a good local attorney, and then maybe go and get your own paperwork in order from that same attorney. Then show your dad what you have done, and suggest at that time that he might go the same route, stressing that you trust that attorney, telling him what it cost and sharing what knowledge you gained from it about what paperwork was needed etc.
Again, don't be too insistent.
My own father is such a curmudgeonly old guy (who listens to no one), that I sympathize with you, but as I age myself, I also see how I tend to procrastinate about so many things all the time too, so I see it from both sides in a certain way.
 Signature Best Regards,
Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
~karen~ - 25 Mar 2006 22:08 GMT > My dad had almost got sucked into setting up a trust for several thousand > dollars, but I managed to talk him out of it and he got his money back. Now [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > as yet. I think he is just so exasperated with my mom and dealing with her > 24/7. Any suggestions? Would your dad be more comfortable with having a financial planner come to the house and help him outline his options? If he had some help making the decisions before seeing a lawyer maybe he would feel like he was directing the lawyer to suit his decisions rather than risk being hit with a lot of questions he hadn't time to prepare for. The financial planner might also be able to narrow down the field of lawyers to choose from so that he didn't feel like he was relying on "eeny, meeny, miny, moe" to find reputable legal help. Perhaps there is a lawyer that could come to the house too. Might be worth asking him about these options. ~karen~
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 26 Mar 2006 03:07 GMT Can you get an attorney to make a house call? He might be more receptive if the lawyer comes to him.
Certainly, don't leave it to him to make the appointment. You set things up, arrange for a sitter for your mom, tell him when it is, and come get him and take him there with his shoebox of papers. Inertia is a powerful thing, and you cannot afford to have anything happen without current legal instruments in place.
M.
Alan Meyer - 27 Mar 2006 06:35 GMT > My dad had almost got sucked into setting up a trust for several thousand > dollars, but I managed to talk him out of it and he got his money back. Now [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > as yet. I think he is just so exasperated with my mom and dealing with her > 24/7. Any suggestions? You've gotten some suggestions about attorneys and financial planners.
Another possibility is to buy him a good book on the subject.
Some problems I've found with attorneys are
1) They can charge a lot of money. 2) They can apply a lot of pressure to do things their way. 3) They sometimes try to get their foot in the door as executors or co-executors of the estate. My wife's grandfather's estate was ripped off by a guy like that.
If he reads a good book however he can learn about the problems and pitfalls of inadequate planning, and learn the techniques for overcoming them. Then when he goes to a lawyer, he'll be more likely to feel in control and to know what he wants to do.
If he's not the type to read such a book, perhaps you or your sister would want to do that for him.
Now of course your next question, no doubt, is What's the best book?
You've got me there. Maybe someone else who knows a good one can chime in. Maybe I'll buy it too.
Alan
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 27 Mar 2006 08:13 GMT It just occurred to me in reviewing Just Me's original post....even if your father's house is left in in joint tenancy so that you and your sister both come to own equal shares, that does NOT mean you get her half if she dies - unless she stipulates that in HER will, which she is under no obligation to do.
If she gets half the house and dies, her specified heirs get her interest by law - and even if she dies without a will, her spouse (if any) and children are in line before a sibling. Here in Ontario, a sib wouldn't enter into the equation in the case of someone who is intestate unless there was no spouse and no children. My mother, for example, died without a will, and her sibs got exactly zip. And my grandfather - who died back in 1977 - has an active estate due to a trust set up to look after his much younger second wife - my father and his only sib (a brother) are both dead - my dad died in 1990 and his brother in 1997 - and their respective families inherited their relative shares in the estate - my father's share did not revert to his brother.
Did I misunderstand your idea about the house and joint tenancy?
M.
Adelle - 28 Mar 2006 13:54 GMT > It just occurred to me in reviewing Just Me's original post....even if > your father's house is left in in joint tenancy so that you and your > sister both come to own equal shares, that does NOT mean you get her > half if she dies - unless she stipulates that in HER will, which she is > under no obligation to do. Sorry, but you are wrong on that.
Joint Tenancy is a legal term of art and has a "right of survivorship' - namely, the surviving joint tenants get the house automatically, without probate.
Tenancy in Common is the form where each owner passes their portion of the house down in to their heirs.
[Tenancy by the Entireties is a Joint Tenancy only available to married people. The legal rights are the same as Joint Tenancy]
Your natural heirs are your spouse and children.
When neither of those survive you, then parents.
If no parents, then siblings.
Once property has passed (from person A to B), that's it. It passes to B's natural heirs. It doesn't revert back to A's heirs unless there is a requirement by law (or will) that B had to survive A by a certain length of time (often sometime between 30 days and three months).
Adelle Stavis (atty in my incarnation before kids. And property law was my only Law school A)
Adelle - 28 Mar 2006 14:08 GMT > Sorry, but you are wrong on that. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > (atty in my incarnation before kids. And property law was my only Law > school A) Sorry to follow up on my own post, but I left out a word or two.
Second Paragraph should read - Tenancy in Common is the form where each owner passes their portion of the house down in their wills or probate to their heirs.
So it all depends on how the rights were written and recorded on the deed. One chooses these things when you purchase the property. When none is chosen, the Tenancy in Common is presumed. But that is very rare now. Lawyers are supposed to ask and make sure the property is titles the way the purchaser wants.
American Law on this comes from British Common Law (we used to be a colony, too), so I imagine Canadian law is quite similar.
Adelle
Just Me - 28 Mar 2006 15:11 GMT Adelle, that's what I thought. A friend of mine bought a home many years ago with a woman who was like her sister. They had the house in joint tenancy. When my friend's roommate passed away a few years ago, my friend is now complete owner of the house. Her deceased roommate's sister came along and stole the original deed, but she can't do much with that as my friend has a copy of the deed and the deed is recorded.
It always amazes me how heirs would be entitled to monies or properties that they may not even deserve or worked for. I can understand children of the deceased getting properties and money from their parents, but when it starts going down the chain I don't think that's right. I am sure there are a lot of greedmongers out there just waiting for the day when they can get their hands on their grandparents' money or someone else they may never had much use for when they were alive. I'm sure my sister would like to get my inheritance and pass on to her kids. She doesn't even live here in the same state as our elderly parents and she doesn't take care of them like I do. But then again...whoever said life was fair.
> > Sorry, but you are wrong on that. > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Adelle Adelle - 28 Mar 2006 17:07 GMT > Adelle, that's what I thought. A friend of mine bought a home many years > ago [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > state as our elderly parents and she doesn't take care of them like I do. > But then again...whoever said life was fair. Well, inheritance always goes down the list first.
I don't fully recall your circumstances. For your sister to inherit from you would mean you had neither living children, grandchildren (great-grandchildren?) and your parents were also deceased. Or - you choose to leave her something in your will.
And that's the real thing here. If you have a valid will or your property is in a valid trust, your property goes in whatever way those legal documents specify. SO if you say, I'm leaving it all to x charity and my family, having been provided for in their lifetime (or having been estranged, or...), are to receive nothing - that's exactly what they get. Or if you put the property in trust for the benefit of yourself, children and/or grandchildren, or even your pet, the trustees have to use the property for the benefit of those people or pet (in US, pets cannot inherit in a will). You have to state an ending time for the trust (death of pet, youngest grandchild reaching the age of 30, or somesuch according to some arcane rules) and also state what happens to the remaining property in the trust when the trust ends (divided equally, goes to charity...). There are some special rules if the trust is for your own benefit (legal arcana which must be adhered to or the trust will be invalid creating all sorts of tax and inheritance messes). That's why these require an atty and tax consult - just so you know the current requirements for validity (and best set up for you).
So - perhaps the cost of legal services for the trust your Dad was going to sign was inappropriate (not sure what complexities were involved, tax consulting, etc.), but having property in a trust is an excellent way of passing on your property because it avoids/reduces probate and its inherent costs in addition to reducing inheritance taxes.
The attorney must have additional monies above the legal fees owed because you have to begin the trust with a minimal amount of money. There must be some property for the trust to control. I always used $1.00, because you can always add money to a trust. But that's where Canadian law may differ. Dunno. Or, if he was placing the house in trust, maybe there is a problem with the title search or mortgage discharge that needs to be researched and fixed. Only the atty who was to do the work could explain his/her fee structure.
Hoped this helped instead of muddying the picture more.
Adelle
Adelle - 28 Mar 2006 17:21 GMT > My dad had almost got sucked into setting up a trust for several thousand > dollars, but I managed to talk him out of it and he got his money back. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sister and I, which I think means that if she were to die (my sister) she > could pass half the house to her kids instead of to me. Depends on how he phrased it in the will. If he specified Joint Tenency, it wouldn't go down to the kids. But it is typical that he didn't specify. And if your sister did pass, yes it would go to her kids. And rightfully so that her children get to inherit their parents property the same way you and your sister did inherited from your parent.
Many families work out a buy out situation when that happens. The person living in the house (or who want to keep the house) has to buy the fraction from the people who want to sell it.
Just one thought - if its joint tenancy and you pass before your sister, she would get the whole thing. Doesn't sound like you want that. So maybe joint tenancy isn't as beneficial to you as you think.
Adelle
Just Me - 28 Mar 2006 23:11 GMT Adelle, I think joint tenancy sounds the better of two evils, as tenants in common doesn't sound that much better to me.
I live in the US, (Penna) and laws are much different here than say Calif. A trust is really not commonly done in PA due to the laws.
I want my dad to get a trust made up but every atty I call seems to frown on it.
> > My dad had almost got sucked into setting up a trust for several thousand > > dollars, but I managed to talk him out of it and he got his money back. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Adelle Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 28 Mar 2006 23:30 GMT Would your father not do better to split his assets 50%-50% at his death, with you two daughters getting equal shares? Then you could get the house valued and you could elect to take your share of your house in the form of the house (although you may need to take out a mortgage if the value is more than 50% of his total assets).
That's what my father did - he left his estate in equal shares to my brother and myself. I was the executor, but I waived any fees. When the entire estate had been valued and probated, my brother knew the value of his half. I asked if he wanted to essentially "buy" my father's house from his share of the total value. He declined, and it was sold, and the cash rolled into the entire estate, later dispersed as per my father's will.
It seems very unfair for your sister's children to be cut out of her share, unless you intend to will your interest in equal shares to any children and any nephews and nieces there may be.
M.
Just Me - 30 Mar 2006 00:14 GMT yes, in his will he has his their assets split 50/50 between my sis and I, but I thought that the house needs to be in joint tenancy or tenants in common despite whether or not we get 50/50. I think it's different if children inherit money/assets from their parents that their parents earned in their lifetime, but I think grandchildren inheriting what the grandparents earned is a different matter. I suppose if someone were going to inherit money, it's nice if it stays within the family, but of course it can get complicated with different family dynamics coming into play, yada, yada, when sometimes you don't want certain family members to think they have a nice some of $$$ possibly coming their way one day. I don't take anything for granted as the most important thing is having my parents in my life. The money isn't a big concern to me at this point in our lives, but I feel it's essential to plan for the future and have things on paper to protect the best interest of the family..
> Would your father not do better to split his assets 50%-50% at his > death, with you two daughters getting equal shares? Then you could get [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > M. Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 30 Mar 2006 02:18 GMT Whats so important about this house?
My father's house was the house I grew up in. It certainly had a lot of memories. Although a very nice 4 bedroom house, in a very nice subdivision, realistically, it wasn't the kind of house my husband and I wanted - it was somewhat out in the styxx as far as we were concerned (a long way from the city core, a long commute from work, no convenient public transit, and it required driving for everything, so mummy and daddy would have been full time chauffeurs). So, for lifestyle reasons, we gave it a pass. It also wasn't a suitable house for my brother, who at the time was engaged, no children - i.e. too big for him, in a poor location for a young couple who want a little more hip urban zing in their surroundings.
So, we sold it, the procedes were rolled into the estate, along with the cars, the investments that were cashed out, the pension, the bank deposits, the insurance - all the financial "stuff" most people have. There was dispersal of personal items per a codicil to my father's will that specified exactly who got what - and god bless my dad for that - there was no fighting about furniture, silverwear, artwork, china etc. The assets of the estate other than the household items, were essentially liquified, poured into a tank, and we each got half - there were no other heirs for the valuable stuff.
I can't begrudge my brother ultimately leaving his share (which is, after all HIS to do with exactly as he pleases) to his children, as he can't begrudge me looking out for my own children in my will.
I guess I'm not understanding why you think your sister's half should not be hers outright, to dispose of as she wishes. If she did own half the house, and you wanted it, you could buy her interest from her estate - and you could make an agreement to that effect (i.e. that each of you has the first right of refusal). If she is only inheriting in effect a life interest, that really isn't fair - that becomes a form of your parents reaching out from beyond the grave to try and control what their descendents do with their assets.
Just seems to me its much cleaner to just put everything in a pool and then if you want, you can elect to take yours share of the pool in the form of the house.
If this is about trying to protect assets by putting it into your names NOW, you may already be too late, as the look back periods for medicaid can be quite long.
M
Dennis P. Harris - 30 Mar 2006 07:49 GMT > yes, in his will he has his their assets split 50/50 between my sis and I, > but I thought that the house > I think it's different if > I think grandchildren > I suppose if someone this is your opinion, or your understanding, but it is not fact. i'm not going to try to correct your misunderstandings point by point because i am not familiar with your local and state laws regarding estates. in order to find out how the law works in your jurisdiction, you should talk to an attorney licensed to practice there.
i would be more concerned about him naming someone with a durable power of attorney for health care than i would about him changing a will that was written years ago and which he probably does not need to change.
Adelle - 29 Mar 2006 00:38 GMT > Adelle, I think joint tenancy sounds the better of two evils, as tenants > in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > on > it. Mixed you up with someone from Canada. Sorry.
I went to law school in Baltimore. Most teachers would comment if a neighboring state's laws were different on something. Don't recall my Trusts and Estates prof saying PA differed from MD on trusts. But that was also 20 years ago. Memory fades, even for the healthiest of us. I do know that certainly the wealthy, like the Heinz and Carnegie families use(d) trusts to preserve family assets.
Very interesting.
Adelle
Just Me - 30 Mar 2006 00:20 GMT Adelle, I know it depends also on the assets someone has. My dad is not a millionaire and does not have a lot of real estate other than the home they live in and their financial assets. I also heard that the federal laws are changing and will go into effect in several months. I know that the laws are changing about how far back the medicaid can go if children are named beneficiaries on the parents' home. It was three years, but it is now five. Did I mention that my uncle had told me a few years ago that my favorite aunt who is now deceased supposedly was leaving me a lot of money. So since I never saw a dime of it, if this is really true, I have asked for a copy of her will just to be sure no one is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. I really don't care about the money, it's really the principle of the matter. My aunt was very dear to me and I miss her every day.
> > Adelle, I think joint tenancy sounds the better of two evils, as tenants > > in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Adelle
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