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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / October 2005Yes, I am back to rant again...
I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to take better care of Mom, which I suggested could best be done by moving to a retirement community near me which would allow them to continue to live in the same apartment while she received more advanced care, he basically threw me out of the house and cut me off from all communication. As usual, he viewed it all from his own perspective -- "you're telling me my life is over." (To which I wanted to say, "No, Dad, you're an rude, inconsiderate idiot who is too lazy to clean house, to feed your ill wife on a regular schedule, to accompany her to doctor's visits and so ego-centric you insist on taking a job you are not qualified for and dragging her along with you after I fuss that she should not be left alone!" But I doubt that would have been helpful! <G>) He has sent me some terse e-mails about her health, which were confusing at best. Then this past Wednesday we "ran into" each other at the local hospital. I was in for an endoscopy -- he was on the next gurney having a colonoscopy. (How odd was that?!?) My mom called that night to ask how I was, but she got my voice mail since I was sleeping off the sedation. The next night my Dad calls just a few minutes after I noticed the voice mail and launches right into "Your mother called you last night and you didn't call her back" in an accusatory tone. I basically got him off the phone, since I was cooking dinner. I realized that night that stress was playing a major role in my digestive problems, and that Dad and the situation with him and Mom was the major source of that stress. So I wrote him a lengthy letter (*that* won't surprise you) outlining how he had upset me and sent it to him by email. He responded that he and Mom wanted to talk about it and that he would be in touch first of this week. Well, I have now learned that they went to the complex I was suggesting they move to for a tour Saturday and then went back yesterday morning, sat down with the director for two hours, and put a deposit down on a unit. (hurray! we think) Then this morning he called and asked for his deposit back -- on a whim they had gone to another facility Monday afternoon and decided to go there instead because it is cheaper. Of COURSE it is cheaper. Facility B (as I shall not-so-creatively call it) is an independent living facility as opposed to retirement/assisted like Facility A. Facility A: 21 meals a week (and snacks if you go ask for them in the kitchen), transportation to doctor's visits, grocery stores, drugstores and field trips, on-site medical staff, on-site assistance with post-hospitalization care, 24-hour health care aide on call, meal reminders if needed, medication assistance if needed, personal care assistance if needed, guest room for visiting family Facility B: 12 meals a week (expected to make own breakfasts every day plus dinner on Saturday and Sunday -- and forget snacks), no transportation (they'll call a taxi), no on-site medical care (if you fall and use the call button, they will call 911 -- Facility A sends an LPN or nursing tech to your room to assess the situation first), no meal assistance, no reminders of any sort, no guest room. If you need personal care, you have to retain a personal care helper from an outside agency just as if you lived at home. Basically it is an apartment building which has a dining room. PLUS Facility B is being purchased by the same company that owns Facility A -- and prices are expected to go up as soon as that is completed. Of course, I am not supposed to know this. (The staff at Facility A told the independent social worker I had been consulting that they were closing the file on my parents, and he called me to give me a heads-up. I then called the director of Facility A for more details. I am friends with directors of both Facilities, and both are excellent. They are just *different.*) I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom! I don't know how to proceed from here. Nobody home I can rant to tonight, so I'm using your forgiving ear! Thanks!!! Songbird > I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to > report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Songbird Try this old saw? "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and wastes your time." I spent 10 mins. composing a thoughtful, reasonable, seriously sympathetic reply, SB, and then canned it. I hope you aren't offended by my sometime mantra. I try and try, but I usually fail at being sensibly serious and frequently fall back on being inappropriately amused. I wouldn't find this the least bit amusing if I didn't understand, however. *Really* understand, I mean. I'm at the beach.(Yeah, _that_ one, not too terribly far from you. Unmunge my email address, if you wish to.) I do hear what you say, though, and I feel for what you're going through. This, too, shall pass. (Not quickly enough, I get that. LOL.) > I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom! > I don't know how to proceed from here. simple. use your durable power of attorney to get your mother into facility A. tell your father that if he wants to live with her, he'll have to move there too. YOU have to do what's best for your mother, whether he likes it or not. it's obvious to me that some of his anger is about losing control, not only over what's happening with your mother, but over his own health. the only way to deal with a self-centered type like him is to give him back what he gives, and just as hard. don't be cowed, don't give in, and don't let it upset your digestion. >> I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom! >> I don't know how to proceed from here. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > give him back what he gives, and just as hard. don't be cowed, > don't give in, and don't let it upset your digestion. Hi Dennis, I am not so sure about that tactic working with someone like for instance, my own father. He is as willful and controlling as Songbird's dad is. If you try to push him, he will dig his feet in even more and get as ugly as he perceives it necessary to maintain control. I think Songbird had the right idea when she wrote him that letter. The reason I think that, is because he actually took her up on it and they looked at facility A on their own. He has to think it is his idea. We women are used to dealing with that sort of attitude from the males in our lives. If you push some guys, they will shove back twice as hard, and it usually doesn't work. I think that Songbird should maybe try again to talk them into reconsidering facility A. Neither one of her parents is going to benefit much by going into facility B, as her father is in denial about his own inability to manage. Good judgement usually is what we finally get when we see the results of our previous bad judgement. Maybe that will be what it will take for him to get a clue, going first into facility B, and seeing that there are still problems, and needing to move all over again. Songbird, what is the usual course when people go into facility B and end up needing more care than they can provide? Do they have some sort of arrangement for that? Surely as night follows day, many people who move into facility B must come to a place in their lives where they need more care? Surely they must have encountered that situation somewhere along the line? It wouldn't hurt to ask, (and maybe to even tip them off) that you think your parents need more care than they give? Maybe Songbird's dad needs to operate under the illusion that he is independent for a while, but as time goes on it will become more obvious to everyone that it isn't working. The people in facility B will be in a position to spot it, and I would be willing to bet that it wouldn't be the first time this happened either. I would bet that they have had this happen before, and maybe they even have some sort of test or criteria that people must be able to be able to manage on their own before they go into that place. Maybe he is just the kind of guy who needs an independent person to tell him that, like the people in the facility?  SignatureBest Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox') Evelyn, What happens when people need more care than Facility B is that they move into Facility C, Facility B's sister complex, just down the parking lot. The problem is that they would now be living separately, with the combined cost about twice what it would be in Facility A. Nor will Facility B personnel say "we can't take care of you any more." It's basically a landlord/tenant situation, and just as you have some great landlords who will take a personal interest, that could happen here, but with a change of director (who is NOT a licensed nursing home administrator as at Facility A), things could change overnight. Facility A can take care of them until they need true 24-hour nursing care. The folks at Facility B I suspect do not realize what they really need, having only talked to Dad. I have talked to the folks at Facility A, so they made sure to let me know of this development because they know the level of care he needs. In some ways, they seemed more alarmed about his health than hers. (She could not remember enough about her medical history to give them a true picture, and he didn't offer it apparently. The sales director kept saying "oh my" as I filled in the picture for her. "They can't handle any of that at B!" I went to my doc this morning and was told I am facing abdominal surgery before end of year, so I need to get ducks in a row. I am probably going tocall Dad this afternoon because I know he has a doc's appointment. I expect he will tell me of his decision and I will try to apporach it from the reasonable, "How did you decide that is where you would like to move?" and try to get him to see he has made yet another F*ing mistake! (Sorry -- that is not my normal language -- but I am at a wall!) I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's "woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right. And thanks to June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone! Songbird Sorry you are going through such a tense situation. I hate to say it, but with your dad's personality, sounds like you are going to have to give him some time. They will move into Facility B, which while isn't optimum like Facility A, is certainly better than living totally on their own. Sooner or later, things will decline to the point where I'm sure it will sink into your dad's head they will have to move again - to Facility A. Sounds like your dad is just going to have to experience it for himself. You have already helped tremendously, even though you don't see or feel it. I'm surprised he is moving at all to any type of facility that offers some measure of assistance - that is great! Hopefully before you have to have surgery, and before they move, you can go to Facility B & give them all the details about the situation you had given to Facility A. Maybe there is an outside chance they will call a halt & not accept them? Especially if you drop some comments that if anything should happen, they *might* be found at fault? I dunno... At this point, maybe it is better not to rock the boat. I still think having them in any type of facility is better than being on their own. I have my own set of abdominal problems. Emergency appendectomy a couple of years back, then had to have gallbladder removed back in December - caught it probably just before it was getting to the emergency state. You are so right. Stress definitely just exacerbates tummy problems!! You have your own health to attend to right now. You must take care of yourself first. Otherwise, you will be in no condition to take care of your mom & dad. When you have regained your health, if things decline & your dad remains in denial, if your mom's health starts deteriorating because of his lack of care, at *that* point is when I'd pull out the medical power of attorney. With the backing of her doctors, after you've appraised them of the situation. What a rotten situation all the way around. Truly, my thoughts for strength are with you, Songbird. ~~~Octavia > Evelyn, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone! > Songbird > Evelyn, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone! > Songbird Songbird, you are strong, smart and capable and you've got all the bases covered. I am sure you have accurately assessed all of the options. Unfortunately sometimes the old people often have their own ideas and resent the smart and capable younger ones "interference" in their bumbling, decision-making processes. I know exactly where you are at, and I am sort of in the same situation; i.e. aging father who resents any and all input, with his own paranoid power and control issues running at full tilt. Add to this various sibling rivalries among the kids and his belief he is going to live forever, and we have a real mess. I hope you ace that surgery and please, if all attempts at reasoning with him fails,... first and foremost take care of you. SignatureBest Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox') I wonder if the approach I used to decide where to place my MIL would help or if your Dad is too far gone in his need to fell in control to look at facts. Basically, I took the low cost place and started adding in the cost of all the extras or additions (like the cost of food versus 3 meals/day) and extrapolated that out to more services than my MIL needed at that time (although she's using them now). After a frank talk with my MIL's doc about what to expect, that approach actually showed me I wouldn't be saving money at all by going with a facility that looked lower priced at first. You already know that but I wonder if the numbers in black and white would get his attention? At bare minimum, if nothing else works and he does go through with the move to Facility B, you're still ahead. Because that means... 1. He's at least begun to acknowledge that there is a problem (in whatever baby steps are necessary for him). 2. He will have begun the process that seems to be the most cumbersome for seniors -- that of downsizing from a home to an apartment. 3. Your Mom will be in a place designed with seniors in mind with grab bars in the bathroom and the ability to call assistance if she needs it (even if it is 911 instead of on site). 4. Your Mom and Dad will both be taking meals with other people the majority of the time which will give her additional social stimulation (as opposed to him being her main social contact) And it can't hurt that other people will be able to tell you how well your Mom is coping, which could be handy if you do decide to exercise the POA. Having said all that, do you remember that old, much copied cartoon that said "stress is caused by suppressing the desire to choke the living s**t out of somebody that desperately needs it"? For some reason, that floated to the top of my recall. Can't imagine why... ;-) Karen > Evelyn, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone! > Songbird These are difficult interpersonal situations. I have seen in my own family that my father-in-law doesn't want to believe that he can't live independently any more even though he really can't. Some of his children bawl him out for trying and try to tell him what he should do and demand then that he do what they tell him. Is it surprising that he digs in his heels and refuses? Would you want to be told by your children that you're no longer responsible and you better damned well do what you're told? For that matter, would you really want to give up independent living and go into an instutition where your life is governed by institutional schedules and rules, where all you get is institutional food, and where you pay through the nose to get it? I sympathize with the old folks who don't want that for themselves. I don't want it for myself. My advice is, be sensitive to your Dad's feelings about this. He's met you halfway by deciding to move into facility B. Give him some positive reinforcement for doing that. Try to help him make facility B work. Even if this is only a stepping stone to facility A, it may be one that makes his life easier than it is now, and may help ease him into facility A when the time comes that even he sees that he needs it. Sometimes when we think a parent is overcontrolling, we have to also look at ourselves and ask whether perhaps we're being overcontrolling too. I know it's difficult to watch your parents make choices that seem wrong to you. But, after all, it is their lives and the choices are theirs to make. Your Mom may be unable to decide things for herself. But until your Dad becomes mentally incompetent, right or wrong, he really is the person who ought to be making these decisions, shouldn't he? Obviously, I don't know the real dynamics of your family situation. I don't know your Dad or Mom. I don't know what they are able or unable to do. I have not seen either facility you have described. I am certainly in no position to make pronouncements either to you or to him, and don't think it would be my place to do so even if I did know all the facts. I'm just trying to give a little of your Dad's possible perspective on this and encourage you to try to help him, as you have, but also cut him some slack. Alan Thanks, Alan, and I have been trying to see it from his perspective. (That's why I come here to rant from *mine* <G>!) Instead of telling him what to do in the past, I have tried to ask questions. The answers would lead 95 percent of reasonable people to the same decision. That way *he* makes the decision. Dad never tried to control my life. I sort of grew like a weed -- neither parent was too involved other than for the basics. I have been on my own since 18, found my own $ way through college, married at 21, etc... The problem right now is he is not communicating with me, so I can't ask questions. I am not supposed to know he has even looked at these places. And if it were just him, he could do whatever he wants and reap the consequences. He is in his right mind, simply following a lifelong propensity for making the wrong decision at every turn because he doesn't get all the information and all the facts until too late. (And then expects someone -- currently me -- to fix it.) In his mind, I'm sure, both places serve meals, so they are equal. (Never occurs to him that one will make sure Mom eats, the other sees it as saved cost if she no-shows. And he thinks, Ok, one doesn't serve breakfast, I can make breakfast -- but what happens when he isn't there?) Both places have a call button, so they are equal. (So what that one of them is basically a one-push to call 911, the other one actually summons a real live person.) It's hard to balance his rights and Mom's needs and the mess that will fall on me eventually to sort out. My husband says just walk away. If he dies or is incapacitated and Mom's needs aren't met, the building will eventually evict her because she's not paying the bill and protective services will come in and find her a placement. She wasn't the world's greatest Mom, either, but I just can't do that to her. Songbird Songbird, I feel for you. We knew my FIL needed more care than MIL could provide. She fought us on letting us take him or both of them to our house and on anyone else I brought in to help her. She flat out wouldn't let them in the door. She would occassionaly let us help but it depended on her mood that day. Her decision making skills were poor. Finally, we quite honestly caught her in a moment of weakness and took advantage of it and got the POAs signed for both of them. The notary who did them had been their neighbor and known in-law as well as us for many years and knew the situation. Fortunately, once that was done, MIL willingly handed over the reins so to speak to hubby for the most part regarding his father. She still fought tooth and nail over anything with her for a while, but it was almost like once the burden was off her, she could let go. She had previously always stated, "it's my burden." when referring to their situation when we tried to help and she refused. That would infuriate hubby that she referred to his dad as a burden. She had been becoming more and more incapable of managing his dad and her senility had been increasing also. Thankfully shortly after that we were able to move them into the downstairs of our house into their own lil apartment and that worked well for several years. They so often can't let go of that last shred of independence. I think many times they recognize the inability to manage, but fight it. Given the dynamics you describe, I think you're right to work things so he feels it's his idea. However, you may reach a point where the issue of your mother's safety is more critical and has to take precidence over his feeling independent. If you have POA for your mother, it may reach the point where you have to utilize it for her own protection if your dad is not capable of letting go or making rational decisions regarding her care. It seems like you're already aware of this though. The struggle you're in with trying to keep things where you're able to maintain a proper level of care while preserving his dignity and independence as long as possible is a hard one.....although it's going to drive you nuts in the process. Hope your stress level decreases soon though. It's so hard to figure out the right thing to do. I've been on both sides of this question myself. When my brother- in-law tried to push his Dad to leave the house after a serious illness (but not dementia), I urged him (the brother-in-law) to hold back and take it slow, letting his Dad make these decisions for himself. On the other hand when my own father showed serious signs of dementia I talked him into giving control over his bank account to me, and I refused to give it back even when he begged and pleaded and told me I was killing him. I had long decided that if I had to make a mistake, I would rather make the mistake on the side of trusting my Dad rather than doubting him, but I finally decided that, as much as I hated taking away the old man's financial decision making ability, it would be a serious disservice to him if I did not. I lost a lot of sleep during that period and it broke my heart to listen to his pleading every day and to try, always unsuccessfully, to win him over to what I had done. It's obvious that you are trying hard to do the right thing, and I'm sure you will make the best decision you can. That's all that any of us can do. Best of luck with it. Alan > I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he > thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's > "woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right. Tell your hubby that I'd be happy to have one, as long as it's a local micro or home brew (support your local brewers!). I'm reminded of the promo that ran for most of August for the new Gina Davis "Commander In Chief" series ---- where Donald Southerland kept telling her that she shouldn't be President because a womand wouldn't want to use The Power if she had it. That's the situation here because you have The Power (of attorney for health care for your mother, not him). The male method would be to remind the opponent that you have The Power through an actual or symbolic display. Teddy Roosevelt, an alpha male if there ever was one, said to "Walk softly and carry a big stick". I'll have to rely on Evelyn to tell me what the female method would be. ;^) I know that you may not want to use that big stick, but if it's the right thing for your mother, don't hesitate. I know how tough it is. The hardest thing in the world was when I had to become a parent to my mother --- hard for both of us. >>Tell your hubby that I'd be happy to have one, as long as it's a local micro or home brew (support your local brewers!). He'd be in favor of that as well! >>I'm reminded of the promo that ran for most of August for the new Gina Davis "Commander In Chief" series ---- where Donald Southerland kept telling her that she shouldn't be President because a womand wouldn't want to use The Power if she had it. >>That's the situation here because you have The Power (of attorney for health care for your mother, not him). Actually I have them for both of them and have used them. I was the one who agreed to the surgery that saved his life back in June. >>The male method would be to remind the opponent that you have The Power through an actual or symbolic display. Teddy Roosevelt, an alpha male if there ever was one, said to "Walk softly and carry a big stick". When I showed it -- he hit back. He has now sent me a counter letter going back more than 10 years to complain I never used to call them "just to pass the time." At the time I was working fulltime and going to school full time and I didn't then (and still don't) call anyone "just to pass the time." And when I did call, they were both tipsy and depressed, which meant I limited my calls. He did finally tell me they are moving. He says the call that triggered all this was intended simply to check and see if I was in the hospital. (Of course I have now told him three times I will be having surgery in the next few weeks, and he has yet to respond to that once.) He says the doctor says they don't need AL. Well, he doesn't, and she wouldn't if he would do what he should. And even so, the doctor hasn't lived with her. She can hold it together for 20 minutes in an exam room unless you know enough to question the information she volunteers. I'm backing off until he asks for help or I see that she is being endangered. I'm also concentrating on taking care of myself, finding a counselor and increasing my health maintenance program. Songbird > I'm backing off until he asks for help or I see that she is being > endangered. I'm also concentrating on taking care of myself, finding a > counselor and increasing my health maintenance program. > > Songbird I think all of that is good. At least your mom will be getting some meals on a regular basis, and there will be some help available for the time being. As her illness marches on, she will require more help, and any neglect on his part will be easily spotted. Best of luck to you in dealing with all of this. SignatureBest Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox') That happened with my in-laws too. FIL was obvious but MIL wasn't. She could sit and talk to the dr for 10 min about the weather, get vitals and bloodwork done. But if he'd taken 10 min to really sit and talk to her, then he would have seen. Or if he'd listened to us, he would have realized from her behaviors. If he'd spent an hour with her at home, he'd have quickly seen what was happening. ". And even so, the doctor hasn't lived with her. She can hold it together for 20 minutes in an exam room unless you know enough to question the information she volunteers. " > I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to > report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Songbird I too worry about my mother but sometimes you just have to let things take their course. It's not easy when you know what really should be done. If you feel that your mother is in danger of neglect then notify the director. There are social services that could be notified too. Just as if a child were be neglected. Perhaps things aren't quite as bad as you think. I worry about my Mom not being cared for up to my standards but really she's doing ok(my brother is her main caretaker). I've learned that it's never going to be perfect. Good Luck, believe me I know how hard denial can be to deal with.......June After reading some of your postings I get the impression that perhaps you are not seeing the situation from your fathers viewpoint. It isn't clear why you have the power of attorney for your mother and why it is not your father who has the Power of Attorney with you being the alternate. Was it your initiative that resulted in your having the power of attorney and your father was not consulted? If so I can understand why he is not happy about the arrangement. You have to understand what is happening in your fathers life relative to the life he has led most of his life. He is being asked to change his life drastically and hand over to a third party much of the control that he has had in his lifetime. He sees the home he has known for decades being broken up, and all his possessions being disposed of in a variety of ways. He is probably concerned about the cost of buying the services that are offered by assisted living centers, and is afraid that he will be warehoused. I would recommend that you try to use a more sympathetic and understanding approach to what is happening in your fathers life, and instead of wanting to take control, use an approach that consists of you assisting him in doing what has to be done. Start using expressions like " we can get through this Dad" and "I know it's hard to make these changes" etc. etc. he seems to be computer literate so he must be a reasonably intelligent man, so respect that and give him credit for it, verbally and often. Perhaps he has been a man who has guided and controlled others in his lifetime. Now he finds that others are eager to control him. Remember he is still married to your mother and presumably she trusted him in the past. I have just sold my house, disposed of all the contents, mainly by giving them away, and I now live in an apartment. let me tell you that it is very hard to do that. Things I have grown fond of I can no longer retain and have had to part with them. Thing I have made with own hands when money was short. Things I prized but others think are worthless now. These are a few of the things your father is certainly laboring under, quite apart from the fact that the woman he has been with a large portion of his life is now deteriorating. Try some understanding and compassion. It might work a lot better than the tough talk and perhaps allow a side of your father to emerge that you have failed to see in the past. I am blessed with a daughter who understands these things, and as a result of that, we are now closer than ever before, and both our lives are the richer. Frederick 81 years young > I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to > report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Songbird > I would recommend that you try to use a more sympathetic and > understanding approach to what is happening in your fathers life, and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lifetime. Now he finds that others are eager to control him. Remember he is > still married to your mother and presumably she trusted him in the past. Frederick, good to have you back, but you really need to go back and read the past several months' posts from Songbird before offering advice. This is a good example of what happens when you join a discussion in midstream without knowing what happened earlier. Her father has always been the one in control, and refuses to recognize how impaired his wife is, refusing to provide her the level of assistance and care that she needs. He has been in denial about his wife's level of impairment for quite some time. He has always been selfish and stubborn, which only complicates matters since it appears that he is now having memory problems as well as his heart problems. Please, please go back and read her posts, and then come back and offer advice. > Try some understanding and compassion. It might work a lot better than > the tough talk and perhaps allow a side of your father to emerge that you > have failed to see in the past. She has, and it hasn't. Her father is still in denial about her mother's needs, which is one reason why she has the durable POA. Dennis--- I have always admired your "no nonsense" answers. BUT---there are times in life, when setting a slower pace, might be the answer. I am sure her Dad is trying to maintain control of "HIS" life. No one wants to be marginalized. I am thankful my kids don't run over my ideas as though they don't matter. They now tell me, I hung on too long taking care of Don. I think of myself as a tough (and of course brilliant) old broad. They might be right and they are entitled to their opinion. I'd like to comment about the elder lawyer deal...Yes she is expensive, but if there are assets to be preserved so the spouse is not left destitute why not pay for relief of that fear. There are many deadlines to be met., not only the 3 yr lookback.. The lawyer's product is knowledge... At the end of eleven years of caretaking I"m worn out---this may be the best thing I am doing solely for myself. The rules are different between husband wife. Rules are much different between children & parents.. Enough said--- |
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