Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / August 2005
guilt
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Galena - 18 Aug 2005 14:12 GMT I think the main problem is that my family is not united about Mom. My brother told me she is driving just fine and what am I talking about. He also said her decline is just natural with aging. I have more than one brother who refuses to see that she is getting worse. I fear they will refuse to see anything until something dire happens.
I think I need to keep a little distance from it all and give them a chance to notice some of her problems. I sound like an interferring witch to them, I believe. I live 4 hours from her and can only go over when I have a week off but I phone her quite often.
Has anyone else lost it and said what they were thinking to their family member suffering with dementia. I am feeling guilty about that. I should not have said what I did about her not keeping her house clean and looking after herself. I guess it only came across as hurtful.
Lesanne - 18 Aug 2005 14:28 GMT I lose it and say inappropriate things all the time, and then feel very thankful that Mom no longer remembers and carries a grudge. I do have to watch out because if I walk around angry and NOT saying something she picks up on that and will pee on my chair or something.
Mom is 91 now, and totally impaired, but when she was in her mid 80's she still drove her car. She got lost a couple of times before anyone got aware of it, I was working around 30 miles away at the time and not coming home until rather late. She had been a brilliant woman, and she was quite creative at hiding her problems at first.
One day she had gone to the church with a friend of hers, and they got lost on the way home and neither could figure out how to get home for a couple of hours. The son of the other lady called me and said "Did you know our Mom's were lost all afternoon yesterday?"
That was the first big clue. I quit my job at the end of that school year and "helped" her drive. Those first years were really nice, being able to spend time together and travel. I had worked since age 16 steadily at one thing or another. It was like a vacation. This past year or so has been seriously hard.
 Signature Lesanne
>I think the main problem is that my family is not united about Mom. My > brother told me she is driving just fine and what am I talking about. He [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > looking > after herself. I guess it only came across as hurtful. Galena - 18 Aug 2005 21:39 GMT I don't know how to reply right under the message yet, so I hope this turns out OK.
Pees on your chair...oh, that is funny. Of course it wouldn't be if it were my chair!
I'm glad you got to spend some good times with your Mom. I'm trying to do the same whenever I can and I am encouraging all the kids to do the same. Grandchildren too.
Thanks for your response.
Lesanne - 18 Aug 2005 21:51 GMT I always top post and ignore anyone who complains, but I am a crabby old nurse caregiver. I don't hold grudges against people who fuss either. Figure it is their right to voice their opinion.
I imagine it is rather funny for someone to hear about her peeing on my chair, but I sure get bent out of shape. I have taken to putting a heavy footstool in it when my rear is not in there ;).
 Signature Lesanne
>I don't know how to reply right under the message yet, so I hope this turns > out OK. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thanks for your response. Gwen Love - 18 Aug 2005 22:20 GMT Lesanne, that's a very smart thing to do! Gwen
> I always top post and ignore anyone who complains, but I am a crabby old > nurse caregiver. I don't hold grudges against people who fuss either. Figure [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > Thanks for your response. Lesanne - 18 Aug 2005 23:18 GMT That would be the nursing process. An intervention that works. :)
 Signature Lesanne
> Lesanne, that's a very smart thing to do! > Gwen [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > >> > Thanks for your response. Evelyn Ruut - 18 Aug 2005 15:26 GMT >I think the main problem is that my family is not united about Mom. My > brother told me she is driving just fine and what am I talking about. He [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > looking > after herself. I guess it only came across as hurtful. Yes, I "lost it" a few times. Fortunately they forget all about it.
In my mother in law's case, she forgot completely when she last had a bath, and if you asked her, she would say "just yesterday".... but the tub was full of buckets and mops and other junk, and had an inch of dust in the bottom. No one had taken a bath in that tub a for a long time.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Galena - 18 Aug 2005 21:41 GMT Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. I won't have the courage to say anything about that, I think.
> In my mother in law's case, she forgot completely when she last had a bath, > and if you asked her, she would say "just yesterday".... but the tub was > full of buckets and mops and other junk, and had an inch of dust in the > bottom. No one had taken a bath in that tub a for a long time. Evelyn Ruut - 18 Aug 2005 21:52 GMT > Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. > I > won't have the courage to say anything about that, I think. I think most do.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Lesanne - 18 Aug 2005 21:53 GMT We do the shower war once in a while around here, but lately I have mostly been standing her in front of her sink on a towel, warming the bathroom and washing her with those neat new little cloth like things they make for bathing babies.
Seems to get her nice and clean and she doesn't mind that nearly as much as the shower.
 Signature Lesanne
> Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. > I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> full of buckets and mops and other junk, and had an inch of dust in the >> bottom. No one had taken a bath in that tub a for a long time. Karen - 19 Aug 2005 04:33 GMT I know my MIL is at that stage. It seems curious that all of the people on her facility that still have enough resources to protest do so over bathing. They've started giving her a bath on the nights we visit because I seem to be able to get her started by suggesting that she has to take a bath or she'll get a rash. It works for now.
And actually, on that note, is "diaper rash" a fairly common problem? She's having a problem in the creases of her legs and under the tummy that won't go away in spite of the special cream, special powder and frequent cleanings.
Karen
> Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. I > won't have the courage to say anything about that, I think. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > full of buckets and mops and other junk, and had an inch of dust in the > > bottom. No one had taken a bath in that tub a for a long time. Dennis P. Harris - 19 Aug 2005 09:12 GMT > Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. I > won't have the courage to say anything about that, I think. you'll have to when the odor becomes overwhelming, she's filthy, and her hair is a dirty mess. one thing you have to understand now is that even if she is your mother, at some point you will have to simply take charge and even do things like ORDER her to bathe. one good way is to simply act as if she had decided to do it (since she won't remember) and just put her through the steps.
google the archives for evelyn's description of how she got ida to bathe.
Evelyn Ruut - 19 Aug 2005 13:00 GMT >> Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. >> I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > google the archives for evelyn's description of how she got ida > to bathe. If you can't find it, just ask me again here.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 19 Aug 2005 14:21 GMT > Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. I > won't have the courage to say anything about that, I think. Mary responds: Of course they do, and you will find the courage - to DO something about it. Talking won't help, other than in the very early stages when verbal prompts still result in some kind of receptive understanding and action. By mid AD, you can tell a person verbally they need to do something until you are blue and it will get you nowhere. They might even agree with you, and promise to take action, but will forget the conversation 15 seconds later, or be unable to translate their intent into action.
People with AD become completely unaware of social niceties, and also can't assess their own condition - so, like a toddler, they can be totally filthy from head to toe and stink and not be aware of it, much less care or realize anyone will notice, OR know what to do about it if they do notice. Even if they feel uncomfortable, they won't associate that problem with the solution (they've lost the reasoning power and problem solving link....okay, so I'm itchy, my skin looks black, that means I'm dirty, so what I should do...is go into the little tiled room and climb into the strange water thing and that will......what was the question, dear?"
A dirty appearance or smell will be shockingly apparent to YOU, but they won't see it, even if you try to point it out. My mother in law's sister Norah also had AD, and the first evidence I saw was her showing up to a family gathering with an absolutely filthy (but washable) pantsuit on, and greasy hair. At the time, she seemed quite together socially, so I was sitting at the table yacking with her and a bunch of female relatives, and I was STARING at the crusty blackened cuffs and stains, filthy collar etc. on the pink suit and my mind was boggled that she couldn't see it needed a launder - and I did what everyone does - I made excuses for her in my mind (well, maybe she just grabbed it from the back of the closet and threw it on, not realizing until too late it was dirty....well, maybe she normally gets her hair washed at the local salon and her appointment got canned.)
They can't remember when they've washed last, so they will assume they must have done it and just can't recall it (i.e. I always take a bath on Wednesday night, so I must have done so). Because washing is usually a private activity, they can feel exposed and violated by help (its an affront to dignity) or insulted that anyone would question them.
Washing is also a complex activity. You need to know the purpose of all the components, how to work the plumbing and use the various products like the toothpaste, the soap, the shampoo. There is so much to keep track of - and taking a bath, for example, requires a sequence of actions that must be done in a specific order. Understanding sequences is a skill lost early in the game for many people with AD. They might know the actions involved, but they get confused about the order. Quite often, the whole thing is so upsetting and confusing that they will avoid the whole thing entirely - its just too stressful - but they can't articulate that is what is going on, much less recall that's part of the reason they aren't clean.
You have to form the intent to have a bath and know what it's for, know to put the plug in the drain, turn the water on and adjust the temperature, know when and how to stop the water. You have to know what you will need (towel, washcloth, soap, shampoo). You have to take all your clothing off and get in, and know how to wash yourself etc. etc. etc.
You really need to move your mother now. If you have hopes of her being able to live independently as long as possible, she needs to be in a situation that will facilitate that - closer to supports and supervision, and where driving is not a requirement. And that has to happen now, or the opportunity is lost. If she has any kind of progressive dementia, she will get worse, and she will completely lose the ability to adapt to new surroundings.
Mary G.
Adelle - 19 Aug 2005 15:34 GMT Great Post, Mary.
One other thing. When he could still post, Char's John said the spray from the shower was physically uncomfortable. And that was just the light shower on their houseboat. He couldn't describe it further. But there must be something sensory happening also. (Maybe that's why our LO prefer sweet things to eat, the other taste sensors aren't conveying well, either.)
So on top of thinking they have already bathed, but not remembering when or how, they also know it feels yucky; and like little kids, they avoid it because it doesn't feel good.
Adelle
>> Oh dear, I wonder if all dementia patients get to the non-bathing stage. >> I [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Mary G. Evelyn Ruut - 19 Aug 2005 15:53 GMT > Great Post, Mary. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Adelle Ditto on the kudos to Mary on an excellent post, and only a brief note to add to Adelle's comments.
We found that having a shower head on a hose (an appliance easily available in any plumbing supply or hardware store) was an extremely valuable tool. In fact, I would call it essential.
My mother in law found it more controllable and less threatening than a stream flowing down on top of her head. I could use it strategically which helped preserve her modesty, and it enabled me to rinse her shampooed head, and direct the spray to rinse her off anywhere without too much difficulty.
I could adjust the temperature to 'just right,' before turning the spray on her physically. She would OK it, as to the temperature (and I could check that it was right too) beforehand, reducing her anxiety that it might be too cold or too hot. Remember they get confused and are afraid they can't remember how to do such things anymore.
I recall my mother in law turning on the faucet in the bathroom sink to wash her face, and forgetting how to turn it off. We heard the water running a long time before we came in to check, and found her trying to turn it one way and then the other, forgetting that turning it only adjusted the temperature, and that to turn it off you needed to push the knob downward. Such confusion is not at all unusual. In a shower such a mistake could scald a person.
Making her shower as free of fear or any negative feelings, was the key. Having a shower chair for her to sit on comfortably was also essential. After I began assisting her in the shower, she never got smelly again. She was clean and fresh like she always was before she became ill.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Galena - 19 Aug 2005 23:43 GMT Yow, I have SO much to learn. It horrifies me and scares me and I feel like I could run screaming and maybe move to Tuktoyaktuk (naw, too cold). I am not even living with my Mom and I am having tons of stress and worries.
My Mom is scared too. I can sense it in her desperation to remember things, and her anger when she can't.
The main reason I can't find a place where she will be safe and comfortable is because of the "boys". They honestly, truly believe that she will be able to make it through the winter at home. They think I am just a fear-monger when I bring up her decline. I would like to be able to physically pop their heads back out of their nether regions, but I suspect I do not have the strength.
In the mean time I have taken up chewing my nails down to stubs and not getting a good nights sleep.
Oh Dennis, I would so like to do as you say and feel no guilt! I have to work on that as it seems to eat me up from the inside out.
Thank you every one for being here and helping me understand this better.
Most sincerely, Galena
Dennis P. Harris - 20 Aug 2005 07:06 GMT > The main reason I can't find a place where she will be safe and comfortable > is because of the "boys". They honestly, truly believe that she will be > able to make it through the winter at home. They think I am just a > fear-monger when I bring up her decline. go buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" for each of them. and one for yourself, too.
June - 20 Aug 2005 14:47 GMT I definitely know what Galena is going through. Denial can be so strong. There's always excuses and just plain I don't want to take sides when a family member brings up problems. LIke this is a big fight or something! I finally got to the point that I was going to get guardianship and to hell with my brothers. Fortunately I didn't have to but I came very close. Find a doctor that will evaluate your mother and if she is deemed to be incompetent then do what you have to do. Have the doctor write a letter that you can show your brothers and also take to a lawyer if necessary. Sounds tough I know. Damn, the disease is bad enough. Some men would deny there's a problem even if their arm fell off! Must be in the genes.... Not all men BTW. Just blowing off steam but I know how unbelievable some people's denial can be........June
>> The main reason I can't find a place where she will be safe and >> comfortable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > go buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" for each of them. and one for > yourself, too. Galena - 20 Aug 2005 15:30 GMT I have POA June (shared with a brother). I haven't used it yet, but I will soon have to for her finances anyway. She hasn't a clue about money. All her bills come directly out of her account and all her cheques go directly in, so that is one worry less. She was double paying, or not paying her accounts and losing her pension cheques until I set the automatic stuff up. Your comment about the arm falling off reminded me of the Monty Python movie In Search of the Holy Grail. That movie is a hoot. I am going to visit her next Tuesday and I am going to search out all the assisted living places in the area and talk to them about available spaces. I imagine there will be a waiting list for them so I had best get moving.
> I definitely know what Galena is going through. Denial can be so strong. > There's always excuses and just plain I don't want to take sides when a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > go buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" for each of them. and one for > > yourself, too. Galena - 20 Aug 2005 15:23 GMT I'm reading it right now Dennis, but perhaps I should get them a copy too. One of my fears is that perhaps they are right and I am just being too critical of her. Then she talks some gibberish to me and I know I am right (at least for a little while, then doubt sets in again)
> > The main reason I can't find a place where she will be safe and comfortable > > is because of the "boys". They honestly, truly believe that she will be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > go buy a copy of "the 36 hour day" for each of them. and one for > yourself, too. LJ - 20 Aug 2005 15:43 GMT I understand your dilemma. My 56 yr old husband goes along just fine then he does something weird or says sentences with wrong words all through. It is tough trying to be both understanding and making them get help they need
LJ Untitled Normal Page
> I'm reading it right now Dennis, but perhaps I should get them a copy too. > One of my fears is that perhaps they are right and I am just being too > critical of her. Then she talks some gibberish to me and I know I am right > (at least for a little while, then doubt sets in again) Dennis P. Harris - 21 Aug 2005 07:11 GMT > I'm reading it right now Dennis, but perhaps I should get them a copy too. > One of my fears is that perhaps they are right and I am just being too > critical of her. Then she talks some gibberish to me and I know I am right > (at least for a little while, then doubt sets in again) stop doubting. the nature of this horrible disease is that in the beginning and middle stages especially, abilities come and go. something as small as a cold can reduce abilities immensely.
Karen - 20 Aug 2005 16:57 GMT Someone told me a long time ago that baseless guilt is your mind's attempt to feel some sort of control over a situation in which you have none. I think it's safe to say everyone here has feel it as some point. I know that even when we were doing everything we could, there was the feeling of "we should have ..." that would hit on items that we couldn't have handled any differently given the info we had at that time. It helped that Hubby and I could support each other. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to go through it without a supportive partner.
It was especially hard at that difficult time where things had deteriorated so badly but we didn't yet have things set up so we could take control. Some people notice the deterioration earlier than others. I think some would never notice it.
Karen
----snip----
> Oh Dennis, I would so like to do as you say and feel no guilt! I have to > work on that as it seems to eat me up from the inside out. > > Thank you every one for being here and helping me understand this better. > > Most sincerely, Galena June - 18 Aug 2005 16:03 GMT >I think the main problem is that my family is not united about Mom. My > brother told me she is driving just fine and what am I talking about. He > also said her decline is just natural with aging. I have more than one > brother who refuses to see that she is getting worse. I fear they will > refuse to see anything until something dire happens. Hi Galena..... I could have written your post a few years ago. I too, have two brothers that were in denial for years about my mother's dementia. It's like has the whole world has gone mad and an I'm only the sane one???? I have posted this information before but you may have missed it. My mother has had dementia for 12 years now and it is progressing very, very slowly. She first told me about it in October 1993. My brother helped buy her a new car in 1996. He was down in Florida where she was spending her winters (she spends her summers in Indiana). The deal was made and I went along with it because at the time she was married even though her husband couldn't drive and nobody asked me about it anyway. They probably wouldn't told me (I live in Indiana) except that as a GM employee I had a discount that my mother could use. The one everybody gets now BTW... sorry for the plug...Well, Mom's husband died in '98 and my oldest brother continued to take her to Florida as he had done for years and left her car there for her to drive. In the fall of 2000 my brother told me that Mom wanted a new car. He lives in near me here in Indiana and of course I was supposed to get the discount for her. I finally had enough and told him that he shouldn't be spending her money on a car she couldn't afford and had no business driving. He said that Mom wasn't impaired enough to quit driving and I was totally wrong. He backed off though but she was still driving. I and my husband had since retired from GM so we went down to spend a few weeks with her in Florida in January 2001. I realized at that time she was getting noticeably worse. She never drove more than a few blocks but sometimes would get out on a busy road. She said if she got lost she would ask for directions to the railroad tracks and then she could find her way home. She lived in a park that was near the tracks. Also when I was down there I has to spend several hours cleaning the bathrooms and doing laundry and cleaning the kitchen before I would even unpack and I convinced her to let me do the cooking. Neither one of brothers really noticed this when they would visit. I might add that both were bachelors. To make a long story short, I went online to the bureau of motor vehicles for the state of Florida and followed their instructions for reporting an impaired driver. Everybody knew it was me that reported Mom even though this info is confidential but I didn't care. I knew what had to be done. My oldest brother vowed that Mom would pass her test. She went to the first interview (my aunt who was living near her at the time took her) at the license bureau and didn't do very well. Then they sent her a notice to come in and take a driving test. She couldn't remember to go and didn't know how to get there on her own anyway. Her license was suspended. My brother wanted to leave her car in Florida so a neighbor could take her to the store. Of course she would drive it if it were there. I told him I would report the car and it's license to the local authorities and if she were caught driving or was in an accident she could go to jail. I was pretty direct and quite frankly I had to be. Also my brother was so sure she would pass the driver's test here in Indiana. He tried to help her with the questions but soon realized that she could never pass. After all was said and done he finally told me that I was right ... she shouldn't be driving. Mom couldn't remember what happened and wasn't angry either. My other brother pretty much stayed out of it but in 2004 he married a lovely lady who happens to be a nurse and who finally opened his eyes to his mother's dementia...thank God.....Mom is still getting along ok and has a very sweet disposition and shows none of psychotic symptoms of dementia. Hopefully we will get her into an assisted living facility this fall meanwhile my oldest brother does a very good job of looking after her. I do believe his heart was in the right place but his brain just had to catch up......June
Songbird - 18 Aug 2005 17:15 GMT > Has anyone else lost it and said what they were thinking to their family > member suffering with dementia. I am feeling guilty about that. I should > not have said what I did about her not keeping her house clean and > looking > after herself. I guess it only came across as hurtful. I haven't lost it and said it to Mom, but I have said it to Dad, in an effort to shake him out of his denial and realize he needs help. Unfortunately, she is not so far gone as to not understand what I am saying. She knows, thinks I am right, and is embarassed but would hardly go against Dad's wishes.
The monastics used to have a phrase "to speak the truth in love." It meant that sometimes you had to confront your brother, not to rebuke him but to help him see the truth so he could amend his ways. That hardly fits when the person you are speaking to someone who *cannot* amend her ways, but it is helpful to me when dealing with others about her. I am not saying "her house is a wreck, she doesn't bathe, her clothes are not clean" to hurt or embarass her but to seek help for her.
It eases the guilt, but not always the pain.
Songbird
Galena - 18 Aug 2005 21:44 GMT Well my brother has no trouble rebuking me that's for sure. He was very angry at me for "getting on Mom's case". I only wanted to wake her up to the fact that things are badly sliding in her housekeeping, but I guess I over did it and now I am sorry about it. I was saying it out of love, but it sounded more like criticism I guess.
> > Has anyone else lost it and said what they were thinking to their family > > member suffering with dementia. I am feeling guilty about that. I should [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Songbird Karen - 19 Aug 2005 04:42 GMT Or it might feel more comfortable to make you the bad guy than to admit that you've noticed a problem he is hoping will go away so he won't have to deal with it.
I commented to my sister that my Mom seemed to be slipping and she thought I was over-reacting. But, I was unavailable one night when they were delivering her new mattress. It wasn't the right one, it was one of the high ones that she couldn't even get up onto but she let them set it up and haul off her old one (at 9PM). _Then_ she called my sister about 4-5 times within an hour, fussing, squawking and worrying. After that, Sis listens with an open ear when I tell her something. To my knowledge, my Mom doesn't have Alzheimer's.
Karen
> Well my brother has no trouble rebuking me that's for sure. He was very > angry at me for "getting on Mom's case". I only wanted to wake her up to > the fact that things are badly sliding in her housekeeping, but I guess I > over did it and now I am sorry about it. I was saying it out of love, but > it sounded more like criticism I guess. Dennis P. Harris - 19 Aug 2005 09:08 GMT > Has anyone else lost it and said what they were thinking to their family > member suffering with dementia. I am feeling guilty about that. I should > not have said what I did about her not keeping her house clean and looking > after herself. I guess it only came across as hurtful. you were telling her the truth, and you had the best of intentions. one rule of this group is that GUILT IS NOT ALLOWED, since caregivers often have to do things to keep their loved ones safe even though they may have promised to never do it (placement in a facility when it becomes impossible to provide 24/7 care, for example) or because telling them the truth would only get them upset for no good reason (when they have delusions, for instance, or to get them to a doctor's appointment when they don't want to go).
the two most helpful phrases to remember are IT'S NOT HER/HIM, IT'S THE DISEASE THAT'S DESTROYING HER/HIS BRAIN and GUILT IS NOT ALLOWED.
as far as your family is concerned, denial is not a river in egypt. it's very, very common for one sibling to be a realist, and everyone else, including a caregiver spouse, to be in denial.
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