PUNT !!!

i am new to this group, so i dont really know the history of your parents,
but does she have a doctor that you coudl talk to about it?

on the face of what you say, i would do number 1, and i dont think #3 is
going to work, but then to sit back and do nothing a la number 2 is not
right either.  Your dad must have some incapacities himself not to see what
is going on with your mum.

i reckon i'd let him blow off some steam with taking her to the docs etc
himself, per the arrangements he has made, then try again a bit later.
maybe he wants to feel needed, maybe you could show him that you are not
trying to be the bad guy, and this is really hurting you?  maybe he has not
considered this?

i dont know, i am only just coming in at the 11th hour as they say.

and i dont think you should feel at all bad for taking up the groups time as
you say, you more than deserve all the support you can get, from wherever
you can get it!

chris

Songbird, forget about #2 and #3.  They are too risky and drastic.   He can
outlast you on the cold shoulder, and you don't want that.   As for going
the legal route, that seems to be a little heavy handed just for the moment,
although all of us here know that it is probably what needs to be done, for
some reason I think you should wait a little longer on that.

I'd go with #1 and just call everyday and act like nothing at all has even
happened.   Let him act pouty or angry or whatever.

I'd also go easy on any pressure on him for a little while.  He is going
through a tough transition.   I'd ignore any poutiness, crankiness, anger,
or anything else he says or does, as though it just isn't even happening.
Show up to take him to the doctor on time, and if someone else is taking
him, OK.   Same with your mom.  Your mom isn't angry with you, and probably
is grateful for your visit.

As for what to do, time is on your side.  It will happen soon enough that it
will become overwhelming for him.   But he is the kind of guy that would see
any legal action as an attack.   He feels he is fighting for his life, and
he thinks he is going to fight to be independent and free as long as he can.
I am all for letting him see for himself just how bad it is going to get
caring for your mom.

I'm going to agree with the rest of the group. Go with # 1.

Wish there was more to offer you than our shoulders. It's hard having to
watch this kind of situation. It's like watching a car wreck in progress and
in slow motion.

It gets really tempting to be the "white knight' who comes in and rescues
and makes everything 'all better.' Especially when you have the clarity to
see the whole picture. But in reality, the legal definitions of competence,
elder neglect/abuse, marital relationships and civil liberties complicate
things greatly. They are technically adults, even when acting like children.
Sometimes, you just have to wait for the crisis to happen. That was our only
option as well. (we live 500 miles from hubby's parents house, so helping
was difficult. Even so, every attempt at help was refused)

To get guardianship over your mom, not only do you have to prove she's
incompetent, you have to prove your dad is not a suitable guardian, as he is
her legal 'next of kin.' It's very similar to parenting law. Right now, even
if your mom is no longer legally competent (and she may be on the cusp with
sufficient lucid moments to make this questionable), your dad is. There is
no law against making unwise decisions, until they actually cause harm. Once
there is some harm, the kind and extent of the act/omission determines
whether there is abuse or neglect.

I once had a disabled client who was diabetic and wheelchair bound from a
very destructive form of arthritis. Husband used to leave her alone in the
apt over the weekend without any meals . While it was outrageous, the court
still required testimony of his hitting her before they would issue a
divorce decree based on abuse.

So to prove that your dad's behavior is worthy of removing him as your mom's
guardian will take more than proof  from what you have. Less than optimal
care is not necessarily abuse or neglect. There is food in the house, even
if some are unhealthful choices, etc. You listed it all yourself.

It's hard to have to watch and do nothing until the crisis happens.

My MIL was just letting things float along with my FIL staying isolated in
the house, dealing with his delusions, and walking on eggshells because he
got aggressive if you tried to get him to do something he didn't want to
(like taking his meds or not driving). He was refusing all his meds -
cardiac and psychotropic - because he couldn't remember he needed them. And
he would push my MIL around if she tried to get him to take them. But in
doctors offices, he held it together and sounded reasonable and competent.
She was potentially in physical danger (potential was the key word), and she
was allowing his health to suffer. But we had no legal option and MIL
wouldn't take any 'help' from us.

Finally, FIL had that medical crisis caused my not taking meds for
congestive heart failure. The hospitalization meant 24 hour care by
non-family who finally saw the deluded behavior because 24 hours a day was
too long for FIL to hold it together. Upon reports from the staff, the dr.
decided that he would only release FIL to a memory unit. That was it;
decision removed from the family.

It was a godsend. Evidence was needed from the right sources. And now that
she had an authority figure saying what ought to happen, MIL could trust
that and go with it. But it was so traumatizing a decision that she called
here and begged that my husband leave immediately to come help her make the
decision and deal either all the legal and financial issues placement
brought up.

Once FIL was placed, MIL slept for 18 hours straight. She never even
realized how much stress she was under until it was taken off her shoulders.

Wish there was more to give you.

Adelle

this is the right one to keep her safe and ensure her proper
care.  don't worry about his approval;  as you've already said,
you've never had it, you won't get it now.

i doubt if it will sever the relationship with him, but if it
does, it's his problem, not yours.  my question is how anyone
with his attitude and treatment of your mother (and you) could
have had a career as a pastor.

stop making excuses and just do it.  

My gut reaction - you should go proactive. Both your Dad's health & your
mom's is too important not to.

Haven't read the replies here yet, but here is my gut reaction.

Meet your dad at his surgeon's appointment. Find out what time it is & try
to get there before him. That way there is no prior discussion (aka
argument) about it - you will already be there. Same thing for your Mom's
appointment on Thursday. Don't waste your breath trying to discuss it with
him. I'm suggesting exactly what I would do, in the light of understanding
all to well about trying to deal with stubborn personalities:)

If you can, try to talk to his surgeon & your mom's doc for a few minutes &
see what their input is concerning how to handle the AL thing. Go ahead & do
#1, make the appointment for him. You can broach him by saying you knew he
was really busy & since he'd already agreed to a tour, you went ahead & took
the time to set up the appointment. I wouldn't go to #3 except as a last
resort. So I'm suggesting what I would do - try to be proactive as long as
you can get away with it. Take off the kid gloves & be as firm as possible
without having to resort to those boxing gloves. Save those as the last
resort.

Sigh... Last but not least, please know there are people out there like me
who truly feel for what you are going through. Sending you good luck vibes:)
~~~Octavia