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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / July 2005

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mammography and dementia

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Songbird - 23 Jul 2005 22:01 GMT
Mammogram shows Mom has a lump in her right breast. It was not on mammogram
15 months ago. Secondary views show it as well, but it cannot be seen on
ultrasound. The radiologist is saying wait six months and repeat the test.
Mom's mom died of breast cancer at a young age, so her risk is higher.

I'm just wondering -- if we need a biopsy, wouldn't sooner be better than
later, as far as progression of her dementia? She's still in early stages of
VaD, so I wouldn't rule out cancer treatment at this point if necessary.

Songbird
Dennis P. Harris - 23 Jul 2005 23:32 GMT
> I'm just wondering -- if we need a biopsy, wouldn't sooner be better than
> later, as far as progression of her dementia? She's still in early stages of
> VaD, so I wouldn't rule out cancer treatment at this point if necessary.

any invasive procedure requiring general anesthesia can cause a
preciptious decline in cognitive abilities.

what are her wishes?  would she want invasive treatment just so
she can have more time for her abilities to deteriorate?  
Songbird - 24 Jul 2005 01:26 GMT
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:01:24 -0400 in alt.support.alzheimers,
.

> what are her wishes?  would she want invasive treatment just so
> she can have more time for her abilities to deteriorate?

Dennis, I have struggled with that question also, but her wishes at this
point would be to fight the cancer. She still enjoys a good quality of life
and made several comments lately about not neing ready to die any time soon.
A lot would be determined by what type of cancer, any signs of spread, what
treatment required, etc. -- and my thinking is that if this *is* cancerous,
early detection = more options. Also, she is a worrier -- and if it is *not*
cancer, it would be a kindness to put her mind at ease. Stress only
increases her confusion, and it looks like Dad is facing another
hospitalization, so that will be enough stress in itself. (for her and me
both!)

Songbird
Evelyn Ruut - 24 Jul 2005 03:28 GMT
>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:01:24 -0400 in alt.support.alzheimers,
> .
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Songbird

Songbird, there is something about that waiting six more months, which
sounds odd to me.

Everyone I know who has had any kind of a lump discovered, the doctors are
extremely anxious to get it taken care of very quickly, and usually as soon
as there is an opening at the hospital, they do whatever surgery they need
to do as quickly as they can.   Also they have been treating the women I
know of (who have had any kinds of lumps) with procedures that don't seem to
require that they be fully anesthetized, which may be a good thing in your
mom's case.   At any rate it wouldn't be out of order to do a bit more
inquiry on this.   I wouldn't wait any six months either .....
Signature


Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Dennis P. Harris - 24 Jul 2005 03:52 GMT
> Dennis, I have struggled with that question also, but her wishes at this
> point would be to fight the cancer. She still enjoys a good quality of life
> and made several comments lately about not neing ready to die any time soon.
> A lot would be determined by what type of cancer, any signs of spread, what
> treatment required, etc. -- and my thinking is that if this *is* cancerous,
> early detection = more options.

Well, you're right about that.  You need to advise all the
doctors involved, since most will not be aware of the problem,
that any use of general anesthesia could result in significant
cognitive loss.  

You should also make them aware that any change in routine,
including hospitalization, could cause distress, and that she
will probably NOT be able to consistently follow doctor's
instructions without caregiver assistance, and that you need to
be present any time doctors discuss her situation with her.

Unless they have had to deal with a demented family member or
specialized in dementia care most doctors are woefully ignornant
of the problems that treatment for other conditions can create
for demented patients, or that demented patients cannot
adequately inform doctors about discomfort, pain. or other
problems.
Anthony Shipley - 24 Jul 2005 04:38 GMT
>Unless they have had to deal with a demented family member or
>specialized in dementia care most doctors are woefully ignornant
>of the problems that treatment for other conditions can create
>for demented patients, or that demented patients cannot
>adequately inform doctors about discomfort, pain. or other
>problems.

It surprises me that people with A.D. don't get a medic-alert bracelet (well,
not over here in .AU).

-
Mind control is being able to make all the voices in your head take turns.

Mod as a hooter!
Evelyn Ruut - 24 Jul 2005 11:56 GMT
>>Unless they have had to deal with a demented family member or
>>specialized in dementia care most doctors are woefully ignornant
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> (well,
> not over here in .AU).

Such braceletes do exist, and they can be purchased privately.

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Anthony Shipley - 25 Jul 2005 05:18 GMT
>Such braceletes do exist, and they can be purchased privately.
Yep! I found that out last night but we're deferring such use for the time
being... :-)

-
Mind control is being able to make all the voices in your head take turns.

Mod as a hooter!
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 24 Jul 2005 12:12 GMT
Anthony, here is the Australian medic alert site, and they DO recommend
bracelets for people with AD.

http://www.medicalert.com.au/

I'm in Canada, and my mother in law had one. It didn't say AD on it,
but it did say memory impaired, with the details to follow if anyone
(such as police, doctors etc.) called the medic alert people.

Mary G.
Songbird - 24 Jul 2005 15:37 GMT
Mom has a bracelet, which specifies her other conditions (Diabetes,
pacemaker, takes Coumadin) and then has her name (in case she cannot
remember it). She was more comfortable with that than "memory impaired."
When the time comes that the impairment is more advanced, I suspect we will
swap the bracelet out and she will never notice.

Songbird

> Anthony, here is the Australian medic alert site, and they DO recommend
> bracelets for people with AD.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mary G.
Songbird - 24 Jul 2005 15:39 GMT
Dennis, thanks for the reminder. I could tell the radiologist had no clue
she was impaired (the average person meeting her briefly would never know)
and was a little surprised when I took the lead in the conversation. OK, so
I'm the pushy daughter. <G>

Songbird

>> Dennis, I have struggled with that question also, but her wishes at this
>> point would be to fight the cancer. She still enjoys a good quality of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> adequately inform doctors about discomfort, pain. or other
> problems.
Bud - 24 Jul 2005 01:06 GMT
> I'm just wondering -- if we need a biopsy, wouldn't sooner be better..

I'd recommend another physician's opinion. Who sent her for the
mammogram? Was a surgeon consulted? Biopsies can often be done under
local and/or narcotic analgesia/anesthesia with reduced danger of
cognative compromize. Who knows what advances in ad treatment might be
forthcoming as has treatment of breast Ca? Just MHO.
Songbird - 24 Jul 2005 15:42 GMT
Her primary care doc sent her for routine screening. When it came back
suspicious, she sent her for follow-up. Frankly, I was surprised radiologist
was one to recommend further investigation or not. Since second is
considered a diagnostic mammo (rather than screeening), they give you
results right away (which is nicer than having to wait as you bite your
nails.)  But I expected him to say "This is what we see, I'll discuss with
your doc whether she thinks we should watch or do further tests." After all,
Mom's mom died of BC at age 47. And although we put that in her file at the
diagnostic center, I have no guarantee he saw it.

Songbird

>> I'm just wondering -- if we need a biopsy, wouldn't sooner be better..
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Who knows what advances in ad treatment might be forthcoming as has
> treatment of breast Ca? Just MHO.
Adelle - 24 Jul 2005 18:38 GMT
Have been holding off on saying anything, because I didn't want to sound
negative or alarmist. Maybe the radiologist feels its not worth treating 'a
senior citizen' or someone with a dementia, or the kind of cancer s/he
suspects. Or maybe the size/shape, etc., looks like it's something benign
and s/he is willing to take the chance its not cancer.

The reason I say this is we just lost my husband's 71 yr old uncle to a
galloping form of stomach cancer. His primary care physician did not refer
him to an oncologist; he suggested hospice. The family simply made the appt
and told him to give them a referral, but couldn't get an expedited appt
because the docs office didn't communicate any urgency to the case.

In just a month between CT scans, the cancer had tripled in size and # of
metastases. If we had those three months from the initial suspicion of
cancer to his appt with the oncologist, perhaps it could have been slowed
down and there would have been some time to get things more in order. He
died four months from that appt with his PCP.

After our experience with this kind of ageism, we are pretty bitter. It's
paternalistic. Perhaps from the shape or locations of the cancer, he could
tell it wasn't amenable to treatment. But that should have been the family's
decision. Perhaps this oncologist is also trying to decide for your family.

Can they do a needle biopsy? IIRC, that is far less likely to need a general
anesthetic.

Adelle

> Mammogram shows Mom has a lump in her right breast. It was not on
> mammogram 15 months ago. Secondary views show it as well, but it cannot be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Songbird
 
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