Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / June 2005
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JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 05:15 GMT My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's. I am now living with her as she has had a series of physical problems. She has just begun taking Aricept. The doctor has been vague about providing details. What is the average progression of the disease? Does Aricept slow the progression for a prolonged period? Does anyone have recommendations on books so I can learn more?
Thank you for any help. I have never posted to a newsgroup before.
jaling
Boydette - 05 Jun 2005 06:00 GMT Hi Janice my MIL is only in her fifties and is doing well on Aricept...my parents have been denying their problems so no meds have been given to them...I am sure there are others here who can help you...I just wanted to respond to you and let you know I HEAR YA...Peace to you B
Maxine says:
Ever notice that the very people that tell you to calm down are the ones that got you mad in the first place?
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 15:41 GMT Thank you for your response. I really appreciate the encouragment.
> Hi Janice my MIL is only in her fifties and is doing well on > Aricept...my parents have been denying their problems so no meds have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ever notice that the very people that tell you to calm down are the ones > that got you mad in the first place? Dennis P. Harris - 05 Jun 2005 08:49 GMT > My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's. I am now > living with her as she has had a series of physical problems. She has just > begun taking Aricept. The doctor has been vague about providing details. > What is the average progression of the disease? The progression is extremely variable. If the doctor is vague about details, you need to have your mother sign a durable power of attorney for health care decisions (so that you can make decisions when she is no longer capable), a living will (so that her wishes regarding things like feeding tubes, hydration, and terminal care are set forth in advance) and most important, a waiver allowing you and your siblings to discuss her medical situation with her doctors.
Then you need to make an appointment to see the doctor without your mother present to talk frankly with him about her condition. You should ask then for a referral for a complete geriatric neuro-psychiatric evaluation, including tests that could identify other physical causes of her memory problems, particularly if he is not a neurologist or geriatric psychiatrist. Once you have the referral, Medicare should pay for the tests (as well as your appointment with him, which should be billed as a family office visit).
If this is her primary care doc and he is not knowledgeable about dementias, you really do need to get that evaluation and seek a second opinion. Things as simple as medication conflicts or low thyroid can present as memory problems, as can the side effects of statins used to lower blood cholesterol.
> Does Aricept slow the progression for a prolonged period? Does anyone have > recommendations on books so I can learn more? Aricept's ability to slow the progress of AD appears to depend on the current stage of the disease. It is common now, and appears to be more effective in slowing the disease, to give Aricept and Memantine together.
The gold standard of handbooks for caregivers is "The 36 Hour Day" by Mace and Rabin, available in the elder care section of most major bookstores. I would also recommend using http://groups.google.com to browse the archives of this newsgroup, since many questions you will have have already been answered here several times.
The FAQ for this group is at http://www.muggsmulcher.com/kstuff/a.s.a/map.htm
Welcome to the group where no one wants to belong. Feel free to come her to vent, ask questions, or share with others who are going through the same hell as you.
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 15:44 GMT Thank you so much for the valuable information. I will make an appointment with her doctor who is a neurologist next week. We have started all of the legal work you mentioned. Thank you also for the book title and how to search archives. I will do that before I post again. What is so difficult at this stage for me is that some days she is my old Mom and other days she is so childlike. For a moment I think there is improvement and then the next day none.
>> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's. I am now >> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems. She has [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > come her to vent, ask questions, or share with others who are > going through the same hell as you. Beth - 05 Jun 2005 16:56 GMT >... some days she is my old Mom and other days she is so childlike. For a moment I think there is improvement and then the next day none.<
Janice, Welcome. Your statement is "classic" for early stage dementia. It is very difficult to face the reality. But for those of us who have been where you are....I say- stop and enjoy those times when you have your old Mom - the best you can. You won't be sorry later(as in "I was too busy at the time" )-when you only get glimmers. Best wishes. Beth
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 19:26 GMT Thank you, Beth. One of the reasons I decided to move in with her for a little while was the very reason you relate. I know there is a window of opportunity to connect with her and I want to have that.
> >... some days she is my old Mom and other days she > is so childlike. For a moment I think there is improvement and then the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Best wishes. > Beth JANICE GIDDINGS - 06 Jun 2005 14:14 GMT Thank you for the reference to the group's home page. I was able to spend a couple of hourse yesterday reading the material and it helped tremendously. I also ordered the 36 hour day yesterday and will make an appontment this week with her doctor. I feel more empowered and proactive now. Thanks.
>> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's. I am now >> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems. She has [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > come her to vent, ask questions, or share with others who are > going through the same hell as you. Evelyn Ruut - 05 Jun 2005 12:47 GMT > My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's. I am now > living with her as she has had a series of physical problems. She has [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > jaling Welcome Janice,
Dennis has given you excellent information and pointed out our website to you, so I won't do the same all over again. I hope you come to this group often, to share and to read.
I cared for my mother in law for almost four years with this group as my main support. For the last year of her life she was in a local nursing home and she only just died at the end of April.
I cannot begin to tell you how much it meant to be able to come here to read and to post. Hope you find it as helpful as I did.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 15:45 GMT I am sorry for your loss. I think I am just lifting the veil of denial and starting to face the reality. I will look in the archives for topics but appreciate a place to vent and share feelings. Thank you so much.
>> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's. I am now >> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems. She has [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I cannot begin to tell you how much it meant to be able to come here to > read and to post. Hope you find it as helpful as I did. Evelyn Ruut - 05 Jun 2005 16:19 GMT >I am sorry for your loss. I think I am just lifting the veil of denial and >starting to face the reality. I will look in the archives for topics but >appreciate a place to vent and share feelings. Thank you so much. You can post anything you like. There are enough of us here who have already been through this journey that someone will surely be able to help with some suggestion.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Nati - 06 Jun 2005 21:13 GMT Hi Janice. I do not post much because i have not much experience but my 87 yr old mother as yours has started to show memory problems. Last week the doctor asked her to draw a clock and the last two numbers did not fit. As she told us she was laughing happily. My dear mom. She told us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father.
JANICE GIDDINGS - 06 Jun 2005 22:33 GMT Thank you, Nati. I know that this will get harder as time goes on and I am glad I found this newsgroup for information and support. I am living with my Mom right now for the summer and then my sisters and I will have to have a serious discussion.
> Hi Janice. I do not post much because i have not much experience but my > 87 yr old mother as yours has started to show memory problems. Last > week the doctor asked her to draw a clock and the last two numbers did > not fit. As she told us she was laughing happily. My dear mom. She told > us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to > visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father. Ruth - 07 Jun 2005 02:34 GMT Nati, I'm glad you mentioned the clock test. Reminds me that my husband had one recently - scored 2. Can someone tell me what that means?
> Hi Janice. I do not post much because i have not much experience but my > 87 yr old mother as yours has started to show memory problems. Last > week the doctor asked her to draw a clock and the last two numbers did > not fit. As she told us she was laughing happily. My dear mom. She told > us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to > visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father. Beth - 07 Jun 2005 04:15 GMT Ruth, I have just looked this up. The Clock Draw Test complements the MMSE(Mini-Mental) by examining other cognitive areas including planning and constructive abilities. Instructions are to draw a clock-and in my version you have them put in a time that requires both sides (as 2:45 or 11:15) with the hands and then write the time in figures. Scoring: The number 12 at the top=2 points Exactly 12 numbers = 1 point Two discernible hands= 2 points Recording the clock time in figures= 2 points. Scores between 6 and 7 are normal; scores between 0 and 5 suggest cognitive impairment.
Beth, Physical Therapist in Maryland
lee - 07 Jun 2005 04:17 GMT found quite a few pages online that explain it ...
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p981049.html says that
"Interpretation of the Score for Cognitive Impairment
A score of 10 suggests that cognitive impairment (CI) is unlikely, although isolated short-term memory impairment such as that seen with carbon monoxide poisoning may be missed. A score of eight or nine must be interpreted clinically. However, a score of less than eight indicates almost CI, and a score of less than five indicates prominent impairment. In medically stable patients, scores remain stable from one day to the next. Interrater reliability is good and the clock scores correlate with a number of formal neuropsychological tests. "
there's more info on the website ...
> Nati, I'm glad you mentioned the clock test. Reminds me that my husband > had one recently - scored 2. Can someone tell me what that means? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to >> visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father. Nati - 09 Jun 2005 02:32 GMT > Nati, I'm glad you mentioned the clock test. Reminds me that my husband > had one recently - scored 2. Can someone tell me what that means? Is that true? He must have been kidding. He meant 12! ha ha
Ruth - 10 Jun 2005 02:40 GMT Sadly, it was 2. An MMSE was given at the same time and that was 23. Seems lopsided but consistent with the most prominent types of deficits I see. Ruth
>> Nati, I'm glad you mentioned the clock test. Reminds me that my husband >> had one recently - scored 2. Can someone tell me what that means? > > Is that true? He must have been kidding. He meant 12! ha ha Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 10 Jun 2005 07:18 GMT That is interesting Ruth.
As I have related here before, I was the one who told the family doctor that something subtle was up with my mother in law - hubbie and I and my mother in law all saw the same doc who had known her for YEARS. I had taken her over for an appointment and took the doctor aside in the hall prior to her going in. At the time, I wasn't thinking Alzheimer's at all - I thought she was getting fuzzy because of her B12 problems.
He expressed surprise I raised the issue because she seemed quite alert and coherant, well groomed, with it etc. - probably because her personality was very much intact as was her ability to carry on a social conversation. He asked her a bunch of routine questions like the date, some personal details, who the prime minister was (we're Canadians) and some other questions similar to the MMSE and she did okay. So far so good. But then...he asked her to copy some simple line drawings, and do various clock face tests, and omigod.
He left her in the examining room, came out, called me over and showed me what she had drawn. Shocking doesn't describe it (for him as well as me). Clearly, here was a another case where there were MAJOR cognitive deficits that didn't reveal themselves too dramatically on the basis of verbal tests, but DID overtly show on figure copying and clock face tests.
Mary G.
JANICE GIDDINGS - 10 Jun 2005 17:34 GMT Well. This brings up a question. The neurologist who diagnosed my Mom with early Alzheimer's only performed the mini mental status exam. Should I ask that he do the clock face draw as well? She has had a CAT scan and many tests to rule out other physical problems.
Thanks, Janice
> That is interesting Ruth. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Mary G. Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 10 Jun 2005 18:57 GMT What WAS really useful for us was the battery of cognitive tests they put my MIL through when she got sent to the dementia specialist by the family doctor. Hubbie went with her, and sat with her during the tests. They had a psychometrist administer a pile of tests - very similar to what you would put a child through looking for learning disabilities - you know, verbal tests, putting puzzles together, copying little drawings etc. etc.
I know the abilities of a person with Alzheimer's are always a moving target, but these tests did give us a starting point for coming to grips with what she could and couldn't do. Because she was so intact in terms of personality, and ability to relate socially, if you had met her at this point, you would not have suspected there was anything really wrong with her. My husband (her only child) and I were the ONLY family members for a very long time who thought something was up - she carried on her normal life, and friends, her sisters, other family, neighbours etc. didn't see any signs of a problem. So, we weren't sure how much of what we were perceiving was us being nutty, vs. genuine disability, or perhaps depression, stubborness, being difficult and ornery, who knows what.
When my husband could actually see for himself the concrete evidence of fairly major holes in her abilities, he was shocked (can I say that again? It was off the scale shocked.) It was very, very helpful for us, to nudge us out of complacency and towards a much more realistic set of expectations for her. We had been getting frustrated with her often because she seemed like herself, so when she didn't do something, you didn't know if it was because she couldn't, or just wouldn't because she didn't feel like it etc. All of a sudden, we realized she was seriously impaired on many fronts (i.e. she could read text out loud without comprehending what she read, so leaving written reminders or instructions didn't help her much). Changed our whole outlook on dealing with her, and also made us ask a LOT more questions - for example, when she told us something, we stopped believing her without checking up and ensuring what she said was actually true (i.e. that she actually DID make that appointment, and that she actually DID show up).
The results of the testing were also very helpful for dealing with family members who were unsupportive because they thought she was fine. It was harder for them to argue faced with concrete evidence.
Personally, I think its worth having done, if you have any doubts about how impaired your mom is. You might be surprised. Usually they are much, much worse than they look. After all, its rare you really grill a loved one to find out if they really CAN read a calendar, tell time or whatever.
Mary G.
Beth - 10 Jun 2005 19:27 GMT Janice, You can give her the clock test yourself, even if you don't have the experience to interpret the results. It's fairly straight forward. Google-Draw a Clock test. Seeing the results helps YOU comprehend what's missing as Mary so eloquently described. It won't be of much use to her as she won't make sense of explaining the deficit. FWIW, we chose not to subject my MIL to the extensive cognitive testing, mostly because we didn't want to re-enforce her losses to her. At the time, she was well aware she had problems and we did better keeping her anxiety level down by concentrating on what was working. However, the family was in agreement about her deficits and we didn't need to prove anything to anyone. Our only questons revolved around how the progression was going to go-and the tests don't help with that. I think it's important to recognize what is working and use it. Unfortunately, the test results don't tell you how to focus on strengths. I think that's a strength of this list, because sharing experiences certainly helps.
Beth
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 10 Jun 2005 22:00 GMT The funny thing with my MIL, is that because she was impaired, she had no idea if she did well or not. The psychometrist was very encouraging and positive and I don't think my MIL felt upset by the testing - she thought she did great. The results weren't discussed with her - just the final diagnosis.
What my MIL WAS upset about was seeing a shrink for a psychiatric review (they were trying to rule out depression etc.). To her, there was a huge stigma associated with psychiatry (she'd had a sister die in a mental institution in the 1940's and it was the big fat family secret, even though the sister had an organic disease that affected her mind). She also was very, very upset by being asked what she saw as nosy personal questions about her family, even though they were (to our eyes) very routine questions about her parents and sisters, her marriage - etc.
At the end of the day, she was happy to have a diagnosis, because in her mind, Alzheimer's was better than "being crazy".
Mary G.
Evelyn Ruut - 10 Jun 2005 22:19 GMT > The funny thing with my MIL, is that because she was impaired, she had > no idea if she did well or not. The psychometrist was very encouraging [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mary G. Hi Mary,
Your mother in law's experience was exactly like Ida's was. She absolutely hated the idea of going to the psychiatrist, associating it with being "crazy".
She kept saying she didn't want to go because she wasn't crazy. We kept telling her we knew she wasn't crazy, but the doctors needed to do all these tests to prove it. She even mentioned it to the psychiatrist after the testing was finished, saying the same thing.
Yet it was absolutely necessary to the process of diagnosing her.
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
JANICE GIDDINGS - 11 Jun 2005 02:08 GMT Thank you to Beth and Mary. Both points of view are worth thinking about. I think I will try the clock test myself just to see how she reacts with me. I also will ask the neurologist about other testing. We are in the process of dealing with varying degrees of acceptance among family and this may be a valid point. Thank you again for all the help in my new beginning.
Janice
> Janice, You can give her the clock test yourself, even if you don't have > the experience to interpret the results. It's fairly straight forward. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Beth Nati - 11 Jun 2005 15:47 GMT I have learnt a lot with this topic. Thanks Mary, Beth, Janice for starting it and everyone who contributed.
And Evelyn please excuse me for what i said about the clock results. I didnt know any better. Sorry.
Ruth - 11 Jun 2005 20:11 GMT >I have learnt a lot with this topic. Thanks Mary, Beth, Janice for > starting it and everyone who contributed. > > And Evelyn please excuse me for what i said about the clock results. I > didnt know any better. Sorry. No apologies are necessary. We are all here to learn and gather support from others who are wrangling with this awful, awful disease. This group offers me a great deal of comfort and a wealth of first hand info. Thanks to all and Nati, welcome to the group. Ruth
Evelyn Ruut - 12 Jun 2005 04:23 GMT >I have learnt a lot with this topic. Thanks Mary, Beth, Janice for > starting it and everyone who contributed. > > And Evelyn please excuse me for what i said about the clock results. I > didnt know any better. Sorry. No apologies necessary, Nati. We live and we learn. I wouldn't want to tell anyone how ignorant of the situation I was when we first found out my mother in law had Alzheimers. Fortunately the kind people on this group helped a lot. I am not all that easily offended anyway. :-)
 Signature Best Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 13 Jun 2005 17:10 GMT Ditto what Evelyn said.
Most of us who have been through this participate after our loved ones have passed because the one positive you can take away from the painful tragedy that AD brings is sharing what you have learned with others, to try and make their way easier.
I think about things we did and things we thought with regards to my MIL, and I shake my head. Its just SO hard to get your mind around progressive global brain damage and what it really means. We learned everything the hard way - trial and error, and hooooh boy, did we make some errors. And wow, did we go through all the predictable stages - denial, incredulity, anger, frustration, dismay, you name it, as we learned.
My MIL has been gone for six years (March 1999), and I am still involved in volunteer work for AD - I can't think of any other illness that would have had the same impact on our family that Dolli's AD had.
Having been there, I totally understand what people are going through when they are starting the journey.
Mary G.
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