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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / June 2005

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JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 05:15 GMT
My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's.  I am now
living with her as she has had a series of physical problems.  She has just
begun taking Aricept.  The doctor has been vague about providing details.
What is the average progression of the disease?
Does Aricept slow the progression for a prolonged period? Does anyone have
recommendations on books so I can learn more?

Thank you for any help.  I have never posted to a newsgroup before.

jaling
Boydette - 05 Jun 2005 06:00 GMT
Hi Janice my MIL is only in her fifties and is doing well on
Aricept...my parents have been denying their problems so no meds have
been given to them...I am sure there are others here who can help
you...I just wanted to respond to you and let you know I HEAR YA...Peace
to you   B

Maxine says:

Ever notice that the very people that tell you to calm down are the ones
that got you mad in the first place?
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 15:41 GMT
Thank you for your response.  I really appreciate the encouragment.
> Hi Janice my MIL is only in her fifties and is doing well on
> Aricept...my parents have been denying their problems so no meds have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Ever notice that the very people that tell you to calm down are the ones
> that got you mad in the first place?
Dennis P. Harris - 05 Jun 2005 08:49 GMT
> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's.  I am now
> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems.  She has just
> begun taking Aricept.  The doctor has been vague about providing details.
> What is the average progression of the disease?

The progression is extremely variable.  If the doctor is vague
about details, you need to have your mother sign a durable power
of attorney for health care decisions (so that you can make
decisions when she is no longer capable), a living will (so that
her wishes regarding things like feeding tubes, hydration, and
terminal care are set forth in advance) and most important, a
waiver allowing you and your siblings to discuss her medical
situation with her doctors.

Then you need to make an appointment to see the doctor without
your mother present to talk frankly with him about her condition.
You should ask then for a referral for a complete geriatric
neuro-psychiatric evaluation, including tests that could identify
other physical causes of her memory problems, particularly if he
is not a neurologist or geriatric psychiatrist.  Once you have
the referral, Medicare should pay for the tests (as well as your
appointment with him, which should be billed as a family office
visit).

If this is her primary care doc and he is not knowledgeable about
dementias, you really do need to get that evaluation and seek a
second opinion.  Things as simple as medication conflicts or low
thyroid can present as memory problems, as can the side effects
of statins used to lower blood cholesterol.

> Does Aricept slow the progression for a prolonged period? Does anyone have
> recommendations on books so I can learn more?

Aricept's ability to slow the progress of AD appears to depend on
the current stage of the disease.  It is common now, and appears
to be more effective in slowing the disease, to give Aricept and
Memantine together.

The gold standard of handbooks for caregivers is "The 36 Hour
Day" by Mace and Rabin, available in the elder care section of
most major bookstores.  I would also recommend using
http://groups.google.com to browse the archives of this
newsgroup, since many questions you will have have already been
answered here several times.

The FAQ for this group is at
http://www.muggsmulcher.com/kstuff/a.s.a/map.htm

Welcome to the group where no one wants to belong.  Feel free to
come her to vent, ask questions, or share with others who are
going through the same hell as you.
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 15:44 GMT
Thank you so much for the valuable information.  I will make an appointment
with her doctor who is a neurologist next week.  We have started all of the
legal work you mentioned.  Thank you also for the book title and how to
search archives.  I will do that before I post again.  What is so difficult
at this stage for me is that some days she is my old Mom and other days she
is so childlike.  For a moment I think there is improvement and then the
next day none.

>> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's.  I am now
>> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems.  She has
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> come her to vent, ask questions, or share with others who are
> going through the same hell as you.
Beth - 05 Jun 2005 16:56 GMT
>... some days she is my old Mom and other days she
is so childlike.  For a moment I think there is improvement and then the
next day none.<

Janice, Welcome.  Your statement is "classic" for early stage dementia.
 It is very difficult to face the reality.  But for those of us who
have been where you are....I say- stop and enjoy those times when you
have your old Mom - the best you can.  You won't be sorry later(as in
"I was too busy at the time" )-when you only get glimmers.
Best wishes.
Beth
JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 19:26 GMT
Thank you, Beth.  One of the reasons I decided to move in with her for a
little while was the very reason you relate.
I know there is a window of opportunity to connect with her and I want to
have that.
> >... some days she is my old Mom and other days she
> is so childlike.  For a moment I think there is improvement and then the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Best wishes.
> Beth
JANICE GIDDINGS - 06 Jun 2005 14:14 GMT
Thank you for the reference to the group's home page.  I was able to spend a
couple of hourse yesterday reading the material and it helped tremendously.
I also ordered the 36 hour day yesterday and will make an appontment this
week with her doctor.  I feel more empowered and proactive now.  Thanks.

>> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's.  I am now
>> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems.  She has
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> come her to vent, ask questions, or share with others who are
> going through the same hell as you.
Evelyn Ruut - 05 Jun 2005 12:47 GMT
> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's.  I am now
> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems.  She has
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> jaling

Welcome Janice,

Dennis has given you excellent information and pointed out our website to
you, so I won't do the same all over again.    I hope you come to this group
often, to share and to read.

I cared for my mother in law for almost four years with this group as my
main support.   For the last year of her life she was in a local nursing
home and she only just died at the end of April.

I cannot begin to tell you how much it meant to be able to come here to read
and to post.  Hope you find it as helpful as I did.

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

JANICE GIDDINGS - 05 Jun 2005 15:45 GMT
I am sorry for your loss.  I think I am just lifting the veil of denial and
starting to face the reality.  I will look in the archives for topics but
appreciate a place to vent and share feelings.  Thank you so much.
>> My mother who is 83 has been diagnosed with early Alzheimer's.  I am now
>> living with her as she has had a series of physical problems.  She has
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I cannot begin to tell you how much it meant to be able to come here to
> read and to post.  Hope you find it as helpful as I did.
Evelyn Ruut - 05 Jun 2005 16:19 GMT
>I am sorry for your loss.  I think I am just lifting the veil of denial and
>starting to face the reality.  I will look in the archives for topics but
>appreciate a place to vent and share feelings.  Thank you so much.

You can post anything you like.  There are enough of us here who have
already been through this journey that someone will surely be able to help
with some suggestion.

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Nati - 06 Jun 2005 21:13 GMT
Hi Janice. I do not post much because i have not much experience but my
87 yr old mother as yours has started to show memory problems. Last
week the doctor asked her to draw a clock and the last two numbers did
not fit. As she told us she was laughing happily. My dear mom. She told
us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to
visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father.
JANICE GIDDINGS - 06 Jun 2005 22:33 GMT
Thank you, Nati.  I know that this will get harder as time goes on and I am
glad I found this newsgroup for information and support.  I am living with
my Mom right now for the summer and then my sisters and I will have to have
a serious discussion.
> Hi Janice. I do not post much because i have not much experience but my
> 87 yr old mother as yours has started to show memory problems. Last
> week the doctor asked her to draw a clock and the last two numbers did
> not fit. As she told us she was laughing happily. My dear mom. She told
> us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to
> visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father.
Ruth - 07 Jun 2005 02:34 GMT
Nati,  I'm glad you mentioned the clock test.  Reminds me that my husband
had one recently - scored 2.  Can someone tell me what that means?

> Hi Janice. I do not post much because i have not much experience but my
> 87 yr old mother as yours has started to show memory problems. Last
> week the doctor asked her to draw a clock and the last two numbers did
> not fit. As she told us she was laughing happily. My dear mom. She told
> us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to
> visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father.
Beth - 07 Jun 2005 04:15 GMT
Ruth, I have just looked this up. The Clock Draw Test complements the
MMSE(Mini-Mental) by examining other cognitive areas including planning
and constructive abilities.  Instructions are to draw a clock-and in my
version you have them put in a time that requires both sides (as 2:45 or
11:15) with the hands and then write the time in figures.  Scoring:
The number 12 at the top=2 points
Exactly 12 numbers = 1 point
Two discernible hands= 2 points
Recording the clock time in figures= 2 points.
Scores between 6 and 7 are normal; scores between 0 and 5 suggest
cognitive impairment.

Beth, Physical Therapist in Maryland
lee - 07 Jun 2005 04:17 GMT
found quite a few pages online that explain it ...

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p981049.html says that

"Interpretation of the Score for Cognitive Impairment

A score of 10 suggests that cognitive impairment (CI) is unlikely, although
isolated short-term memory impairment such as that seen with carbon monoxide
poisoning may be missed. A score of eight or nine must be interpreted
clinically. However, a score of less than eight indicates almost CI, and a
score of less than five indicates prominent impairment. In medically stable
patients, scores remain stable from one day to the next. Interrater
reliability is good and the clock scores correlate with a number of formal
neuropsychological tests. "

there's more info on the website ...

> Nati,  I'm glad you mentioned the clock test.  Reminds me that my husband
> had one recently - scored 2.  Can someone tell me what that means?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> us the doctor said she got a 5 on her test. As you i have started to
>> visit more and be more loving. She lives with my 88 yr old father.
Nati - 09 Jun 2005 02:32 GMT
> Nati,  I'm glad you mentioned the clock test.  Reminds me that my husband
> had one recently - scored 2.  Can someone tell me what that means?

Is that true? He must have been kidding. He meant 12! ha ha
Ruth - 10 Jun 2005 02:40 GMT
Sadly, it was 2.   An MMSE was given at the same time and that was 23.
Seems lopsided but consistent with the most prominent types of deficits I
see.
Ruth

>> Nati,  I'm glad you mentioned the clock test.  Reminds me that my husband
>> had one recently - scored 2.  Can someone tell me what that means?
>
> Is that true? He must have been kidding. He meant 12! ha ha
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 10 Jun 2005 07:18 GMT
That is interesting Ruth.

As I have related here before, I was the one who told the family doctor
that something subtle was up with my mother in law - hubbie and I and
my mother in law all saw the same doc who had known her for YEARS. I
had taken her over for an appointment and took the doctor aside in the
hall prior to her going in. At the time, I wasn't thinking Alzheimer's
at all - I thought she was getting fuzzy because of her B12 problems.

He expressed surprise I raised the issue because she seemed quite alert
and coherant, well groomed, with it etc. - probably because her
personality was very much intact as was her ability to carry on a
social conversation. He asked her a bunch of routine questions like the
date, some personal details, who the prime minister was (we're
Canadians) and some other questions similar to the MMSE and she did
okay. So far so good. But then...he asked her to copy some simple line
drawings, and do various clock face tests, and omigod.

He left her in the examining room, came out, called me over and showed
me what she had drawn. Shocking doesn't describe it (for him as well as
me). Clearly, here was a another case where there were MAJOR cognitive
deficits that didn't reveal themselves too dramatically on the basis of
verbal tests, but DID overtly show on figure copying and clock face
tests.

Mary G.
JANICE GIDDINGS - 10 Jun 2005 17:34 GMT
Well.  This brings up a question.  The neurologist who diagnosed my Mom with
early Alzheimer's only performed the mini mental status exam.  Should I ask
that he do the clock face draw as well?  She has had a CAT scan and many
tests to rule out other physical problems.

Thanks,
Janice
> That is interesting Ruth.
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Mary G.
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 10 Jun 2005 18:57 GMT
What WAS really useful for us was the battery of cognitive tests they
put my MIL through when she got sent to the dementia specialist by the
family doctor. Hubbie went with her, and sat with her during the tests.
They had a psychometrist administer a pile of tests - very similar to
what you would put a child through looking for learning disabilities -
you know, verbal tests, putting puzzles together, copying little
drawings etc. etc.

I know the abilities of a person with Alzheimer's are always a moving
target, but these tests did give us a starting point for coming to
grips with what she could and couldn't do. Because she was so intact in
terms of personality, and ability to relate socially, if you had met
her at this point, you would not have suspected there was anything
really wrong with her.  My husband (her only child) and I were the ONLY
family members for a very long time who thought something was up - she
carried on her normal life, and friends, her sisters, other family,
neighbours etc. didn't see any signs of a problem. So, we weren't sure
how much of what we were perceiving was us being nutty, vs. genuine
disability, or perhaps depression, stubborness, being difficult and
ornery, who knows what.

When my husband could actually see for himself the concrete evidence of
fairly major holes in her abilities, he was shocked (can I say that
again? It was off the scale shocked.) It was very, very helpful for us,
to nudge us out of complacency and towards a much more realistic set of
expectations for her. We had been getting frustrated with her often
because she seemed like herself, so when she didn't do something, you
didn't know if it was because she couldn't, or just wouldn't because
she didn't feel like it etc. All of a sudden, we realized she was
seriously impaired on many fronts (i.e. she could read text out loud
without comprehending what she read, so leaving written reminders or
instructions didn't help her much). Changed our whole outlook on
dealing with her, and also made us ask a LOT more questions - for
example, when she told us something, we stopped believing her without
checking up and ensuring what she said was actually true (i.e. that she
actually DID make that appointment, and that she actually DID show up).

The results of the testing were also very helpful for dealing with
family members who were unsupportive because they thought she was fine.
It was harder for them to argue faced with concrete evidence.

Personally, I think its worth having done, if you have any doubts about
how impaired your mom is. You might be surprised. Usually they are
much, much worse than they look. After all, its rare you really grill a
loved one to find out if they really CAN read a calendar, tell time or
whatever.

Mary G.
Beth - 10 Jun 2005 19:27 GMT
Janice, You can give her the clock test yourself, even if you don't have
the experience to interpret the results.  It's fairly straight forward.
 Google-Draw a Clock test.  Seeing the results helps YOU comprehend
what's missing as Mary so eloquently described.  It won't be of much use
to her as she won't make sense of explaining the deficit.  FWIW, we
chose not to subject my MIL to the extensive cognitive testing, mostly
because we didn't want to re-enforce her losses to her.  At the time,
she was well aware she had problems and we did better keeping her
anxiety level down by concentrating on what was working.  However, the
family was in agreement about her deficits and we didn't need to prove
anything to anyone.  Our only questons revolved around how the
progression was going to go-and the tests don't help with that.
I think it's important to recognize what is working and use it.
Unfortunately, the test results don't tell you how to focus on strengths.
I think that's a strength of this list, because sharing experiences
certainly helps.

Beth
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 10 Jun 2005 22:00 GMT
The funny thing with my MIL, is that because she was impaired, she had
no idea if she did well or not. The psychometrist was very encouraging
and positive and I don't think my MIL felt upset by the testing - she
thought she did great. The results weren't discussed with her - just
the final diagnosis.

What my MIL WAS upset about was seeing a shrink for a psychiatric
review (they were trying to rule out depression etc.). To her, there
was a huge stigma associated with psychiatry (she'd had a sister die in
a mental institution in the 1940's and it was the big fat family
secret, even though the sister had an organic disease that affected her
mind).
She also was very, very upset by being asked what she saw as nosy
personal questions about her family, even though they were (to our
eyes) very routine questions about her parents and sisters, her
marriage - etc.

At the end of the day, she was happy to have a diagnosis, because in
her mind, Alzheimer's was better than "being crazy".

Mary G.
Evelyn Ruut - 10 Jun 2005 22:19 GMT
> The funny thing with my MIL, is that because she was impaired, she had
> no idea if she did well or not. The psychometrist was very encouraging
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Mary G.

Hi Mary,

Your mother in law's experience was exactly like Ida's was.   She absolutely
hated the idea of going to the psychiatrist, associating it with being
"crazy".

She kept saying she didn't want to go because she wasn't crazy.   We kept
telling her we knew she wasn't crazy, but the doctors needed to do all these
tests to prove it.   She even mentioned it to the psychiatrist after the
testing was finished, saying the same thing.

Yet it was absolutely necessary to the process of diagnosing her.

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

JANICE GIDDINGS - 11 Jun 2005 02:08 GMT
Thank you to Beth and Mary.  Both points of view are worth thinking about.
I think I will try the clock test myself just to see how she reacts with me.
I also will ask the neurologist about other testing.  We are in the process
of dealing with varying degrees of acceptance among family and this may be a
valid point.  Thank you again for all the help in my new beginning.

Janice
> Janice, You can give her the clock test yourself, even if you don't have
> the experience to interpret the results.  It's fairly straight forward.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Beth
Nati - 11 Jun 2005 15:47 GMT
I have learnt a lot with this topic. Thanks Mary, Beth, Janice for
starting it and everyone who contributed.

And Evelyn please excuse me for what i said about the clock results. I
didnt know any better. Sorry.
Ruth - 11 Jun 2005 20:11 GMT
>I have learnt a lot with this topic. Thanks Mary, Beth, Janice for
> starting it and everyone who contributed.
>
> And Evelyn please excuse me for what i said about the clock results. I
> didnt know any better. Sorry.

No apologies are necessary.  We are all here to learn and gather support
from others who are wrangling with this awful, awful disease.
This group offers me a great deal of comfort and a wealth of first hand
info.  Thanks to all and Nati, welcome to the group.  Ruth
Evelyn Ruut - 12 Jun 2005 04:23 GMT
>I have learnt a lot with this topic. Thanks Mary, Beth, Janice for
> starting it and everyone who contributed.
>
> And Evelyn please excuse me for what i said about the clock results. I
> didnt know any better. Sorry.

No apologies necessary, Nati.   We live and we learn.  I wouldn't want to
tell anyone how ignorant of the situation I was when we first found out my
mother in law had Alzheimers.   Fortunately the kind people on this group
helped a lot.    I am not all that easily offended anyway.  :-)

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 13 Jun 2005 17:10 GMT
Ditto what Evelyn said.

Most of us who have been through this participate after our loved ones
have passed because the one positive you can take away from the painful
tragedy that AD brings is sharing what you have learned with others, to
try and make their way easier.

I think about things we did and things we thought with regards to my
MIL, and I shake my head. Its just SO hard to get your mind around
progressive global brain damage and what it really means. We learned
everything the hard way - trial and error, and hooooh boy, did we make
some errors. And wow, did we go through all the predictable stages -
denial, incredulity, anger, frustration, dismay, you name it, as we
learned.

My MIL has been gone for six years (March 1999), and I am still
involved in volunteer work for AD - I can't think of any other illness
that would have had the same impact on our family that Dolli's AD had.

Having been there, I totally understand what people are going through
when they are starting the journey.

Mary G.
 
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