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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / May 2005

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Newbie requests help RE: Oral Fixation in Pick's / Alzhiemer's patient

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Scott Begg - 29 Apr 2005 08:03 GMT
    Hello everyone!

    I just very recently subscribed to this group, but our family
has been contending for several years now with a member suffering (and
declining) from Alzheimer's.  Over the last several weeks, one problem
in particular has become pronounced, and we would very much appreciate
it if anyone else who has experienced this problem and has advice
would be so kind as to help us.

    A bit more background is in order, and I'll explain things
better here.  Our father was diagnosed as suffering from Alzheimer's
several years ago.  Later, a bit closer analysis of symptoms revealed
it to be Pick's Disease.  By the time he had been diagnosed, the
disease had progressed substantially.  The last several years have
seen a marked decline in him.  In the last year, it became essentially
impossible for my father to swallow anymore, and he had a GI tube
inserted for feeding.  Since then he has been given daily feedings by
syringe (four or five or more times a day, on a very rigid schedule).
Before the GI tube was inserted, his health had deteriorated
dangerously, and he had lost a lot of weight; after the tube was
inserted and the feedings made routine, he returned to his original
weight... There are problems with his feeding, however: he is very
restless, needs attention diverted during the process, etc. This has
necessitated a number of strategies on our part: we tie big mittens on
his hands which restrain his fingers (they are like boxing gloves) and
this keeps him from pulling the GI tube out; he has to be 'tied down'
in a chair during feedings (his arms are tied down, the television
turned on, etc.); and after feedings, he wears a special vest which
precludes his access to the tube.

    One of the problems we've noted since the tube and the
feedings is that saliva will still accumulate in his mouth, and so he
routinely spits--on the floor, the carpet, and on his caregivers.  We
are addressing this problem.  A much more serious problem, however, is
what appears to be an oral fixation he has recently acquired.  Since
he can not swallow anymore, no food or water goes into his mouth.  As
a result, he has taken to putting anything into his mouth and chewing
on it: his hearing aids, random objects, and especially these mittens
he must wear for feedings.

    Does anyone have any advice about how to dissuade him from
putting things in his mouth and chewing them?  We don't seem to have
any ideas, and any that you could forward to us would be greatly
appreciated.  I thought that one possibility might be some of that
foul tasting (but harmless) stuff you swab on pacifiers, etc., to keep
teething babies from putting stuff in their mouths, or to keep them
from sucking their thumbs... I wonder if that might work in this
context.

    Anyone who has any ideas or any experiences to share--or for
that matter, anything helpful to add, I would be very much grateful
for your advice.  Please either follow-up to this posting, or feel
free to email me at my address:

        scottbegg@charter.net

    I thank everyone in advance for your help.  Thanks!

Scott
Beth - 29 Apr 2005 13:07 GMT
Scott,  I hope someone can give you helpful ideas, but I would tell you
to give up "trying to convince him" because he is incapable of
responding to reason or logic due to the disease process.  Controlling
or manipulating his environment are your options.  If you think of the
process as reversing of childhood developmental milestones-he is
responding at an automatic, reflex kind of level....probably with little
cognitive input.  I was happy to hear that the feeding tube restored his
weight--we don't hear that much for dementia.
Best wishes-it's hard.
Beth
BeeBek - 08 May 2005 23:45 GMT
> Scott,  I hope someone can give you helpful ideas, but I would tell you
> to give up "trying to convince him" because he is incapable of
> responding to reason or logic due to the disease process.  Controlling
> or manipulating his environment are your options.

Hi Beth!  I'm leaving California for several weeks, so I
won't be able to develop the threads (herein) to an elaborate
extent, however, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOUR FOCUS ON
THE ENVIRONMENT!  In my father's case (who has a dimentia),
manipulating his environment is the best way in which to
implement his care plan (he is cared for at home). It really
works for us too! The last few years, we have grown to a
level where we feel that we can accomplish anything with
him via an arrangement of his immediate environment.

I thought your input was very valuable!

regards,

-BeeBek
b_bek_045@yahoo.com

If you think of the
> process as reversing of childhood developmental milestones-he is
> responding at an automatic, reflex kind of level....probably with little
> cognitive input.  I was happy to hear that the feeding tube restored his
> weight--we don't hear that much for dementia.
> Best wishes-it's hard.
> Beth
Florence A - 29 Apr 2005 13:42 GMT
Scott-

So sorry you, your family and your father are suffering so. How does one
respond to your post  without sounding as cruel & heartless as the
feeding regimen you described.

Knowing only what you have given,...

Take off the gloves, vest, etc.  Hopefully, your father will remove the
feeding tube himself ..  allowing some dignity to return to all... feed
him as best you can, and should he still be unable to take water &
sustenance---
allow nature to take its' course or "God's will be done"..
Evelyn Ruut - 29 Apr 2005 13:44 GMT
> Hello everyone!
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> Scott

Dear Scott,

I hope you don't think me callous, but I don't believe in the use of feeding
tubes, unless it is in someone who has an expectation of recovery.

Meanwhile, I hope you find a way to cope with your situation.

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?index
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Tumbleweed - 29 Apr 2005 14:56 GMT
> Hello everyone!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it if anyone else who has experienced this problem and has advice
> would be so kind as to help us.

<snip>

If I am ever in that situation my instructions are that someone pulls the
plug on me.
What is the point of the life you describe?

Signature

Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Lee - 29 Apr 2005 15:56 GMT
sounds like a difficult situation for everyone :(

what's the worst that caan happen if he does chew on something? IE why CAN'T
he have a teether or chew toy or pacifier for that matter?
Ronny TX - 29 Apr 2005 18:49 GMT
> Re: Newbie requests help RE: Oral
> Fixation in Pick's / Alzhiemer's patient
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> for that matter?
> ---
Ronny:
Now that sounds like a good idea that I surely hadn't thought of and
probably wouldn't have.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:25 GMT
Visual facial grasp.

Riestra AR, Heilman KM.

Department of Neurology of the Mexican Institute of Neurosciences,
Huixquilucan Estado de Mexico, Mexico.
alonso_riestra@intramedios.com.mx

Some patients with degenerative neurological diseases have a release of
the vestibular-ocular reflex (VOR), as detected by passive head
movement during visual fixation on a moving target ("doll's
eyes"maneuver). However, a positive doll's eyes sign might be induced
by other defects and the purpose of this article is to describe a new
ocular sign of cortical dysfunction, the visual facial grasp. We
observed three patients, one with progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP),
another with probable Alzheimer's disease (AD) and a third with
cortico-basal degeneration (CBD) all of whom appeared to demonstrate a
release of the vestibulo-ocular reflex (VOR) with passive head
movements. Whereas the patient with PSP, who was unable to inhibit the
VOR regardless of the visual target used probably had a true release of
the VOR, the patients with AD and CBD were able to inhibit this reflex
when the visual target was the examiner's moving face. These two
patients also exhibited spontaneous preference for visual fixation on
the examiner's face and improvement in smooth pursuit when the
examiner's face was the visual target. This clinical observation
suggests that the deficits in these two patients with AD and CBD were
related to the emergence of a primitive stimulus-bound behavior, the
visual facial grasp.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:25 GMT
Verbal learning and visuomotor attention in Alzheimer's disease and
geriatric depression.

Strang JM, Donnelly KZ, Grohman K, Kleiner J.

We compared the verbal learning and visuomotor attention of 34
Alzheimer's patients and 18 depressive patients. Verbal learning was
assessed using The Hopkins Verbal Learning Test--Revised (HVLT--R);
visuomotor attention was assessed using the Trail Making Test (TMT).
The Alzheimer's patients had significantly lower scores on immediate
and delayed recall of a word list. There was a nonsignificant trend in
this group toward a fewer number of true positives and a greater number
of false positives. Alzheimer's patients were significantly slower on
Trails A, with a nonsignificant trend toward slower performance on
Trails B. No difference was observed in accuracy of attentional
processing. The results are discussed in terms of other factors, such
as stage of cognitive decline, which might have influenced the findings.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:26 GMT
Visuospatial deficits due to impaired visual attention: investigation
of two cases of slowly progressive visuospatial impairment.

Suzuki K, Otsuka Y, Endo K, Ejima A, Saito H, Fujii T, Yamadori A.

Division of Neuropsychology, Department of Disability Medicine, Tohoku
University Graduate School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.
kyon@mail.cc.tohoku.ac.jp

Two patients with slowly progressive visuospatial impairment
demonstrated a peculiar type of visuoconstructive deficit. The most
prominent manifestation appeared when handling kanji (logogram)
characters and other figurative patterns. The patients showed pure
agraphia for complex kanji but not for kana (syllabogram) or Arabic
numerals. Their abilities to read and understand kanji characters and
to orally describe the structure of a kanji character were preserved.
They could not draw or copy figures or symbols except for single lines
or simple symbols, although they could identify and name the targets
easily. They also performed poorly in such visuoconstructive tasks as
the block design subtest and matching to sample tests that require the
ability to simultaneously attend to multiple saliencies. When asked to
copy multiple kana characters scattered on a sheet of paper, they could
correctly describe the location of a particular character in relation
to the others, but actually wrote each character in grossly mislocated
positions. These findings suggest that when the patients start
particular tasks, which require detailed visual analysis, their range
of visual attention becomes extremely narrow. This task-dependent
narrowing and fixation of visual attention might explain some of the
visuoconstructive symptoms described in patients with slowly
progressive visuospatial impairment.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:26 GMT
Consistent immunohistochemical detection of intracellular
beta-amyloid42 in pyramidal neurons of Alzheimer's disease entorhinal
cortex.

D'Andrea MR, Nagele RG, Wang HY, Lee DH.

Johnson and Johnson Pharmaceutical Research and Development, Spring
House, PA 19477, USA.

We compared the effects of three pretreatment immunohistochemical
techniques (no pretreatment, pepsin predigestion and heat pretreatment
(HEAT)) for detecting intracellular beta-amyloid42 (Abeta42) in
pyramidal neurons of formalin-fixed Alzheimer's disease (AD) cortices
(n = 25). Although all three protocols immunostained Abeta42 in amyloid
plaques using four commercially-obtained Abeta42 specific antibodies,
only the HEAT protocol consistently detected prominent intracellular
Abeta42 in pyramidal neurons. This suggests that the Abeta42 present in
amyloid plaques may be structurally distinct from that located within
the neurons perhaps due to differential binding proteins coupling or a
consequence of formalin fixation. Detection of an abundant
intracellular Abeta42 in neurons may provide alternate explanations for
the origin of dense-core amyloid plaques in AD cortices other than the
conventional chronic extracellular Abeta42 deposition hypothesis.
Copyright 2002 Elsevier Science Ireland Ltd.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:26 GMT
Neither major depression nor glucocorticoid treatment affects the
cellular integrity of the human hippocampus.

Muller MB, Lucassen PJ, Yassouridis A, Hoogendijk WJ, Holsboer F, Swaab
DF.

Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry, Kraepelinstrasse 2-10, 80804
Munich, Germany. muellerm@mpipsykl.mpg.de

In major depression, decreased hippocampal volume has been attributed
to hypercortisolemia, a frequent sign of the disorder, because in
animals an excess of corticosteroids has led to dendritic atrophy,
astrogliosis and loss of neurons in this brain region. The present
study is the first to investigate the structural integrity of the human
hippocampus in major depression and following glucocorticoid treatment.
Post-mortem hippocampal tissue from 15 patients who had had major
depression or bipolar affective disorder, 10 patients who had been
treated with glucocorticoids and 16 controls was assessed using
haematoxylin-eosin, Nissl and Bodian staining. The patterns of reactive
astrogliosis (glial fibrillary acidic protein, GFAP), synaptic density
(synaptophysin), synaptic reorganization (growth-associated protein
B-50) and early signs of Alzheimer's disease (Alz-50) were examined
immunocytochemically. Multivariate analysis, with the patients' age,
tissue fixation time and postmortem delay as covariates, was performed.
There was no evidence of neuronal cell loss or other major
morphological alterations in any of the groups, nor was there a
significant change in the distribution pattern of synaptophysin or
Alz-50. Changes in B-50 and GFAP staining were observed in the
steroid-treated and depressed patients in areas CA1 and CA2 only. The
human hippocampus in major depression and after glucocorticoid
treatment does not reveal any major morphological changes or signs of
neuronal cell death, but does show subtle alterations in B-50 and GFAP
expression in selected parts of the pyramidal cell layer.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:26 GMT
Optimization of techniques for the maximal detection and quantification
of Alzheimer's-related neuropathology with digital imaging.

Cummings BJ, Mason AJ, Kim RC, Sheu PC, Anderson AJ.

Institute for Brain Aging, University of California, Irvine, CA
92697-4540, USA.

Prior to undertaking quantitative neuropathological studies of
Alzheimer's disease, methods for detecting plaques and tangles must be
optimized. While suitable antibodies have been developed with great
sensitivity, specificity, and reliability, there is no standard
pre-treatment protocol for key AD-related pathology. It is well known
that formic acid treatment enhances the detection of beta-amyloid. But
what concentration of formic acid is best; can similar methods enhance
the detection of tau-related pathology? This study compared multiple
antigen retrieval techniques (e.g. boiling in citrate or glycine
buffer, microwaves, formic acid concentrations), to develop an optimal,
standardized protocol for quantitative digital microscopy.
Free-floating (40 microm) and paraffin-embedded (12 microm) sections of
formalin fixed frontal cortex from mild, moderate, and severe AD cases
(n = 18) were pretreated with fifteen different protocols and stained
with each of the following antibodies: beta42, PHF-1, MC-1 and AT8.
Random fields were digitally captured and images were thresholded to
select for positively stained areas versus background (e.g. "load"). As
previously reported, high concentrations of formic acid were extremely
effective in enhancing the detection of beta-amyloid; as much as a
2-fold enhancement in Abeta "load" values were observed. Surprisingly,
tau-related pathology detection also increased significantly following
pretreatment. Depending on the antibody, between a 3-fold and 6-fold
enhancement was possible relative to no pretreatment. Comparable
results were found in paraffin-embedded sections. Similar enhancements
in the detection of pathology were obtained following 99% formic acid
exposure, microwaving in citrate buffer (pH 9.0) or exposure to 99%
formic acid then boiling in citrate buffer (pH 6.0). Because the latter
treatments were often harsh on the tissue and more difficult to
control, we recommend a standard tissue pretreatment of 99% formic acid
for seven minutes for both beta-amyloid and tau-related pathology.
Dr. Harman - 29 Apr 2005 16:27 GMT
Dynamic allocation of attention in aging and Alzheimer disease:
uncoupling of the eye and mind.

Mapstone M, Rosler A, Hays A, Gitelman DR, Weintraub S.

Cognitive Neurology and Alzheimer's Disease Center, Northwestern
University Medical School, 320 E Superior St, Chicago, IL 60611.

CONTEXT: Visual attention can be distributed focally, in the direction
of gaze, or globally, throughout the extrapersonal space. Aging, and
especially Alzheimer disease (AD), may influence global attention,
resulting in shifts of gaze to attend to the global workspace.
OBJECTIVE: To determine if subjects who have AD and cognitively intact
older subjects shift their gaze more often than young subjects while
viewing a dynamic stimulus that emphasizes global attention. DESIGN:
Experimental study of eye fixation patterns in response to a simulated
driving scene with stationary and moving distractors. SETTING: Urban,
medical school, National Institute on Aging-funded Alzheimer's Disease
Center. PARTICIPANTS: Thirteen subjects with mild probable AD, 13
age-comparable cognitively intact older control subjects, and 11 young
control subjects. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE: Proportion of eye fixations
within and outside of a central region of interest encompassing the
"road" surface. RESULTS: Young controls made significantly more eye
fixations (mean number of eye fixations, 47.5) than either of the other
2 groups (older controls mean, 33.2; patients with AD mean, 32.2).
However, 76% of their fixations remained within the central region of
interest. Older controls and subjects with AD made proportionately
fewer fixations within this region (48% and 49%, respectively) than
young controls and moved their eyes more often to the periphery but did
not differ from one another. CONCLUSIONS: Young controls maintain
central eye position regardless of peripheral distraction. Older
controls move their eyes to the periphery, presumably to widen the
window of attention. Subjects with mild AD did not experience an
additional disadvantage beyond that associated with aging.
Ronny TX - 29 Apr 2005 18:55 GMT
Scott,I don't have any answer for you on this;but onething that jumped
out at me from your post and concerned me greatly was where you said
your Dad sometimes puts his hearing aids in his mouth and chews on them!
It seems that would ruin his hearing aids;but more importantly I'm
thinking of what might happen if he swallowed a hearing aid battery. I
could be wrong on this;but it seems I've read somewhere that swallowing
such a battery could make a person very ill or even kill them? So y'all
surely need to talk to your Dad's doctor or someone knowledgeable about
that.
Dennis P. Harris - 30 Apr 2005 04:09 GMT
> In the last year, it became essentially
> impossible for my father to swallow anymore, and he had a GI tube
> inserted for feeding.  

Pardon me for asking, and I don't want to sound critical, but why
in the world would anyone install a gastric feeding tube for
someone with a fatal dementia?  Why didn't you just let nature
take its course when he could no longer swallow food?  Why are
you torturing this poor man by feeding him through a tube when he
obviously doesn't like it?  Is your family keeping him alive so
that he can die slowly from declining brain function?  Is it
being done FOR him or TO him?

This is why I have a living will that instructs my doctor and
other caregivers that I DO NOT want to be fed through a tube.  To
me, it sounds like slow torture.

And no, I can't offer any advice because in my family we all
agree that we would never want to be treated like that.  My
mother simply stopped eating several weeks before she died, and
we acted in accordance with her living will and her expressed
wish that she be allowed to die with dignity and without invasive
medical intervention.
J - 30 Apr 2005 06:42 GMT
Dennis you are a True Turd!
Evelyn Ruut - 30 Apr 2005 13:27 GMT
Hello J,

Why is it that you singled Dennis out for this comment, when others
including myself also said so?
Dennis told it like it is.

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?index
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

> Dennis you are a True Turd!
Scott Begg - 02 May 2005 09:10 GMT
>    Hello everyone!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> [RE: the problem with chewing mittens, other objects, etc.]
>  (SNIP)

  To those who have responded so far to my query:

    I wish to thank all of you who have already responded to my
posting.  I especially would like to thank those who have added
helpful suggestions.  A number of opinions were tendered, and not all
of them do I fully agree with, but I thank all of you for the
suggestions nonetheless.

    I perhaps failed to describe the situation as fully as might
have been necessary.  The situation is much more complex than I have
described.  As well, I am not the primary caregiver involved in this.
As such, I am not the one making the decisions involving my father's
care at this time--that role falls to my mother, who is still quite
competent.  Some time ago, a consensus was reached that when the time
comes that my father is fully failing, then we would place him in the
appropriate assisted living environment, and no excessive (unnecessary
and painful) treatment measures would be resorted to then... at that
point, then, 'nature will be allowed to run its course'... However, as
long as there was still some quality of life present for my father,
then care and treatment would continue.  At this time, he is not
capable of swallowing, and requires a GI tube. Insertion of a GI tube
is not considered an extraordinary measure at this time, though; in
fact, it is not an uncommon treatment at all at this point in the
progression of Alzheimer's disease.  He may be incapable of swallowing
now; however, he is still capable of talking, answering simple
questions (his answers are limited pretty much to 'yes' and 'no' now),
walking (sometimes long walks, in excess of a half a mile or even a
mile).  He still understands some of the things we say to him, but we
have discovered that the processing time has been greatly lengthened.
He can also read passages from a book (with guidance), with assistance
he still recognizes some of us, and he is capable of writing out
sentences, etc., (again with guidance), watching TV/movies, playing
catch with a ball, etc.  We understand that he is not fully aware of
his environment, and that this is an ultimately fatal condition, but
the consensus was that it is not yet time to cease assistance on our
part.  Some of you might disagree with this decision, and that is all
well and good--you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    I took some time and thought long and hard about whether I
should respond or not, but decided in the end that I should.  Some of
you might disagree with what I say in the following, but my intention
is not to be personal or critical.  Again I thank everyone who
responded, and I still hope to hear of any other
experiences/advice/web links which might be pertinent.

    Beth: I perhaps misspoke when I asked for something that would
'dissuade' him from continued chewing. I certainly didn't mean to
'convince' in an intellectual sense.  My father is well passed that
now.  I meant more of a physical dissuasion, as for example, a bitter
taste when chewing on something.  Since I posted, I was informed that
bitter taste might not even be a sufficient deterence, as the taste
sensation in his mouth, and his reaction to 'bitterness' might not be
functioning either.  Also, such deterence doesn't work if there is not
association or learning, and that might be the case here.  I want to
thank you as well for your support regarding the GI feeding tube and
my father's weight gain.  

    Lee: I will look into the 'chew toy' or 'teething device' or
pacifier option.  I had not thought of that, and I will relay the
information on to my mother.  Thank you for your suggestion.

    Ronnie:  I thank you for your support as well, and
particularly your input regarding the battery issue.  I will inform my
mother of this promptly.

    J:   Thank you, too.

    Dr. Harmon:  Thank you for whatever advice you gave me in all
those posted article abstracts.  But I don't believe that 'visual
facial grasp' is at issue with the behavior I described at this point.
I think it's more simply a case of chewing, and 'getting at' the
gloves / mittens which are on his hands (which he must find
distressing at some level), as well as other things...

    Evelyn:  I thank you for your reply, and no, I don't believe
what you said was callous.  I don't happen to fully agree with it, but
I appreciate your input anyway.  At that point a year ago or so, a
consensus was reached to go with the GI tube implant.  I understand
that there is no expectation of recovery, but that fact alone does not
and should not necessarily preclude any and all treatment.  He still
has some good time left in him--how much longer though, we don't know.

    Tumbleweed:  I thank you as well for your input.  However,
there was no 'plug' involved, and thus no need to pull anything... I
don't have an answer to your question, other than to say that the
decision was made to prolong his life as long as there was still some
good time left in him, and after that to not take extraordinary
measures.  Again, I appreciate your response to my query--but you
didn't answer the question I asked...

    Dennis:    I wish to thank you as well for your response.  At
the time when he was losing his ability to swallow, it was quite
evident that my father was in great distress; he obviously didn't like
the fact that he was starving...  And so, the decision was made to
have a GI tube inserted--again, a not uncommon decision at all made
for patients who have reached this point in their disease.  Since
then, he has regained his old weight, and is still engaging
life--albeit at an inexorably declining rate.
    I hope you forgive what I am going to say now, as it will be
blunt.  I don't mean to be personal, but I feel it is necessary to say
this.
    I appreciate that you have an opinion on this matter--I
imagine it is certainly better than not having one.  However, I do not
fully agree with your take on it.  Moreover, you (and a few others)
did not answer the question I asked; you answered what you wanted to
hear--in other words, the question you wanted to have been asked.
Ultimately, that is entirely self-serving and of little help to the
person asking for help.
    Obviously, this is a necessarily fatal dementia, and we are
quite well aware of that.  Every question that you posed is one that
our family has struggled with for a very long time as well.  It is
arrogant to assume that others haven't considered these issues, or to
assume that treatment such as a GI tube insertion must be tantamount
to torture.  That is an opinion and nothing more.  There are a great
many things which can cause distress to those who suffer dementia. One
example of this would be scratching at itches to the point that
lesions form.  It is reasonable to restrain a patient in such
situations (by use of mittens, etc) so as not to worsen the lesions.
That a patient suffers from an inevitably fatal disease of dementia
should not preclude reasonable efforts taken, then, to ameliorate any
other threat, even if the treatment itself (GI tube) causes distress
as well. Following the sort of logic you advocate to the extreme, one
would be fully justified in allowing a victim of, say, a terminal
cancer to die from a minor infection when you have the means to cure
it, or in shutting off the breathing apparatus for a quadriplegic
suffering progressively worsening paralysis--even while both still
have some quality time left.  After all, the patient is just going to
die in the end anyway, right?
    Not everyone necessarily agrees with you, and not everyone
defines quality of life the same way.  Suffice it to say, different
people arrive at different conclusions and make different decisions;
perhaps it is best that each decision be given the respect it
deserves.  And as well, just to reiterate, the situation is much more
complex, and I am not the decisionmaker.
    Finally, I appreciate that this is a strong moral position
that you and your family have taken regarding living wills and dying
with dignity, and I respect your courage and foresight in having done
so.  But our parents did not make the same decision, and neither have
we, their children--at least not yet.  In hijacking an honest request
for assistance and turning it into an opportunity for personal
fulmination, one defeats the whole purpose of a forum such as this,
which is to share information, experience, advice, etc, and to answer
questions in an environment free of acrimony, judgement, or
incivility.  Turning a request for assistance into a private soapbox
is pretentious and rude.

    Again, I thank all of you for the advice you have given me so
far.  I appreciate your help, and look forward to any other
information or web links anyone can give me.

Scott
Dennis P. Harris - 02 May 2005 09:53 GMT
> In hijacking an honest request
> for assistance and turning it into an opportunity for personal
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> incivility.  Turning a request for assistance into a private soapbox
> is pretentious and rude.

i'm sorry that you feel that way, but i really do find what you
are doing to be intolerable to me and violates everything i
believe.  

'nuff said.
Florence A - 02 May 2005 18:57 GMT
Scott---

From you  post I'm guessing you feel justified with your "Family
decision"...It's difficult for me to think that anyone would choose
these conditions, much less choose them for another..
How does your Mother view this?  has she to this very day not said i(in
essence)  ...Please!!! no no no, not for me.

If this is a a family, march step, religious view ---I can understand..
I hope you take this as kindly as I mean to say it.... '
However,I"m with Dennis ...'nough said.
Scott Begg - 03 May 2005 06:43 GMT
>Scott---
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I hope you take this as kindly as I mean to say it.... '
>However,I"m with Dennis ...'nough said.

    Thank you for your reply and your perspective, Florence.  You
are correct; I don't believe that the family decision is entirely
wrong (so far).  However, again, I am still somewhat tangential to
this whole thing.  As well, each of us realizes that the time is fast
approaching that the situation will have to change.  As you might
surmise, different individuals will respond to the change in different
ways; I believe that my mother and sister (both nurses) have accepted
the inevitability of the outcome, but I believe that some other
members of the family will still be in denial when the time
approaches.  The situation is very complex, and in some respects
rather delicate...

    With regard to our family, we are religious, but practice to
varying degrees of consistency.  I don't believe this is a 'march
step' situation with our family, though.  We are certainly
heterogeneous in our respective world views...

    How does my mother view this?  Regarding the situation with my
father, she was the primary author of this decision.  Again, once the
situation is reached that quality of life is very much diminished, she
has said that he will be placed in a full care facility, and no
extraordinary treatment will be pursued.  Regarding what she wishes to
be done for her if / when she faces the same situation--that is a good
question, and it would be a very good idea for the entire family to
sit down and iron it out before that time comes.  I will certainly
suggest this the next time I see them.  As well, all responses I
receive (even the ones I don't entirely agree with) are being compiled
and forwarded to all members of my family by email so that they can
consider the information as well

    Thank you again for your contribution.

Scott
Florence A - 03 May 2005 17:52 GMT
Sounds like "too many cooks".  agreeing on nothing...
Agree on one advocate, then all others can feel blameless.
I take it---
No one wants to be the In Charge One  

Many excuses to say "not me but HE would have chosen (So & So) had he
known it would come to this.  

I know many in this group have had to make some tough decisions along
the way..  I sincerely wish you well.  
Scott Begg - 04 May 2005 08:02 GMT
>Sounds like "too many cooks".  agreeing on nothing...
>Agree on one advocate, then all others can feel blameless.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I know many in this group have had to make some tough decisions along
>the way..  I sincerely wish you well.  

    Thank you for your reply, Florence.

    I would rather not comment entirely upon what is occurring
with my family right now, but suffice it to say, you may be on to
something.

    My mother is making the decisions with some input from my
brother(s) and sister, but she is still the final 'advocate', or the
one in charge... That said, however, there are things going on which
are much, much more difficult.  There is denial to the point of
impediment to everyone else on the part of one brother, and there are
other family dysfunctions.  These things were there before the onset
of my father's illness, but his disease seems to have exacerbated the
matter, and caused things to reach a boiling point.  I don't want to
be more specific than that, but it is a very troubling and difficult
situation.

    I thank you again for your sympathy and words of
encouragement.

Scott
Dennis P. Harris - 04 May 2005 10:21 GMT
> There is denial to the point of
> impediment to everyone else on the part of one brother, and there are
> other family dysfunctions.  

Topics that caregiver and family support groups encounter all the
time.  Check www.alz.org for the Alzheimer's Association office
in your area and ask them about support groups.  You will
discover that others that have been there already can help
provide a lot of insight about your own situation.
Scott Begg - 05 May 2005 06:13 GMT
>> There is denial to the point of
>> impediment to everyone else on the part of one brother, and there are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>discover that others that have been there already can help
>provide a lot of insight about your own situation.

    Thank you very much, Dennis.  I will forward the link and add
it to my favorites.

Scott
J - 03 May 2005 04:22 GMT
Told you that Dennis was a Turd!!!

He consistently posts GARBAGE to the newsgroups and seems to be out
with an agenda here.   Best to plonk him and send him to the killfile!
Gwen Love - 03 May 2005 05:39 GMT
J, I think it much better to plonk you!
Gwen

> Told you that Dennis was a Turd!!!
>
> He consistently posts GARBAGE to the newsgroups and seems to be out
> with an agenda here.   Best to plonk him and send him to the killfile!
Evelyn Ruut - 03 May 2005 13:10 GMT
> Told you that Dennis was a Turd!!!
>
> He consistently posts GARBAGE to the newsgroups and seems to be out
> with an agenda here.   Best to plonk him and send him to the killfile!

Better to plonk you.
PLONK!

Signature

Best Regards,
Evelyn

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?index
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

J - 03 May 2005 19:39 GMT
Pipe down Evelyn or I'll have to plonk you, too!
Most of your stuff is junk anyway.
Julian 'Penny for the guy'  Hales - 05 May 2005 02:22 GMT
> Pipe down Evelyn or I'll have to plonk you, too!
> Most of your stuff is junk anyway.

Shes given me good advice thats for sure, i value her comments, not like u
Lesanne - 03 May 2005 04:01 GMT
Hey Scott. I am a nurse, and I lurk here. My Mom has Alzheimer's, and yes
each situation is what it is where it is. People have strong opinions, and
unless they want to come stay with your family for a month or so and
evaluate what is going on, maybe they ought to keep those opinions to
themselves (that one would be mine). I had to wonder if possibly there is
some connection between feeding/chewing still going on in some neural
pathway. I would try one of the indestructible sort of chew toys, but keep
careful watch to be sure he did not bite his tongue or lips while chewing.
Maybe one of the nylabone rings that they make for pups. Non toxic, not
likely to be bitten into little pieces that could aspirate, but still
designed to be in a mouth. I would test the whatever first myself to be sure
a little piece could not be bitten off. And make sure to disinfect often,
like in the dishwasher. Nothing like having something to chew to keep one
from chewing inappropriate somethings, right?
Is this just happening during feedings, or at other times?
Is there a pattern that could indicate anxiety, or pain? Some dementia
sufferers have incongruent responses to pain or anxiety, and pain medication
(in the case of my Mom a tylenol will suffice) helps.
I often ask for suggestions here, and usually get a long list of things that
I already know since I am a nurse, and on occasion suggestions that I will
be needing a nursing home (this is a nursing home, complete with R.N.
director and staff now).  I get suggestions that I change settings on my
computer because my messages don't wrap, and always one or two useful posts.
Hang in there, people here mean well. My own Momma has gotten to the point
where if she gets a bad infection she is most likely heading for heaven, but
it has not been to that point before this year. Had her ability to swallow
gone two years ago, we might have done a GI tube, Today certainly not. I had
a knee jerk reaction to your first post also, but didn't feel that I needed
to share that.

Signature

LESLIE ARNIM

Scott Begg - 03 May 2005 06:25 GMT
>Hey Scott. I am a nurse, and I lurk here. My Mom has Alzheimer's, and yes
>each situation is what it is where it is. People have strong opinions, and
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>a knee jerk reaction to your first post also, but didn't feel that I needed
>to share that.

    Thank you very much for your reply to my query, Lesanne.  I
will definitely forward your suggestions to my mother.  There is,
however, a time-delay in making contact with them, and I probably
won't be able to until this next weekend when I drive down to see them
again (I see them once every two weeks or so)... Due to a number of
reasons I won't go into here (part of the 'complexity' of the
situation), telephone contact is sporadic and inconsistent at best.

    I probably should also have included the information in my
last two posts that my mother is a Registered Nurse, and my sister is
an LVN, too, but it took your reply to jar the neurons and get me to
realize that I should probably have included that information as well.
Both have much experience working with patients suffering with many
diseases, including dementia patients.

    Regarding the connection between GI feeding and chewing
behavior: I will have to speak to my family members about that as
well, as their description wasn't entirely clear.  If I may hazard,
from what little I know, I believe that the chewing behavior is
semi-independent of the feedings.  It also appears to be directed
mostly to the mittens (he evidently wants them off his hands, or
desires his hands to be free to go after something)...

    Again, thank you for the very helpful contribution, and I will
relay the information back to my family as soon as I can.

Scott
Karen - 03 May 2005 13:20 GMT
Speaking of jogging neurons loose -- a friend of mine that was caring for an
older dementia patient mentioned to me that they had to put mittens on the
old lady because she kept trying to pull her diaper off.  She started
chewing on the mittens trying to get the mittens off.  So you may be on to
something there, it may not be related to a desire to chew so much as a
desire to have his hands free.  Just a notion.

I hadn't registered in on the opinion issue because (IMO) few times in life
have as many gray areas as the beginning and the end.  I've been told that
with Alzheimer's, what abilities get zapped first and last can be variable
to each individual.  Some (like myself) would aggressively not want
treatment, some would want aggressive treatment to prolong every speck of
life left.  So long as no one is trying to force their views on me by law,
pursue what works for you.  My family knows my views but I've never been
know to be shy with my opinions.  :-)

Karen

----snip----
> Regarding the connection between GI feeding and chewing
> behavior: I will have to speak to my family members about that as
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Scott
Scott Begg - 04 May 2005 07:21 GMT
>Speaking of jogging neurons loose -- a friend of mine that was caring for an
>older dementia patient mentioned to me that they had to put mittens on the
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>
>> Scott

    Karen:

    Thank you very much for your reply.  What you added was very
infomative.  From what I've seen during the feedings (I only visit my
family once every two weeks or so, since I don't live in their city,
and have a job elsewhere), one of my brothers and my mother have the
thing down to a science.  And the mittens-thing has been a response on
our part to concrete actions he has taken (trying to get at the GI
tube, especially during feeding, and incessant scratching at skin
until it is bloody and raw); they are put on to lessen those sorts of
destructive behaviors, and only when necessary--certainly not all the
time.  And I agree--I think the chewing of the mittens in particular
seems to be oriented to removing them as impediments so that his hands
simply might be freed.

    Thank you again, and I will pass the information on to my
family.

Scott
larnim48@hotmail.com - 03 May 2005 14:34 GMT
Well there goes my morning thoughts, if your Mom is a nurse. I was
wondering if there might be problems with how the feeding was going
(cold, too fast, etc.) those things are well known by most nurses. For
anyone else who might be wondering cold feedings or hot, or too fast
all cause severe pain. If he is fighting, maybe someone thinks fast is
better to get it over with, but I would say that is a very bad, even
cruel idea. I might ask anyway if I were in your shoes, and the other
thought was that since he has swallowing difficulty if this is going on
during the feedings, sometimes saliva is a problem, he may feel as if
he is going to choke. The people who know the most about that sort of
issue are speech therapists. But again, an RN ought to already know
this, and have asked. If it is a feeding time issue with saliva, a
clean wash cloth to chew would be the intervention more than likely. Or
the mittens, as in let him chew those, but they are probably more
expensive to replace than washcloths :).
If he is trying to remove the mittens (and I know I would be ! ) then
maybe some other type of restraint would be better, a posey or
something that allowed movement but not as far as his head. Personally
with my Mom when a behavior has been a problem close attention to it
and try this try that has always ended up providing a solution.
Scott Begg - 04 May 2005 07:30 GMT
>Well there goes my morning thoughts, if your Mom is a nurse. I was
>wondering if there might be problems with how the feeding was going
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>with my Mom when a behavior has been a problem close attention to it
>and try this try that has always ended up providing a solution.

    I appreciate your contribution regarding feeding strategems.
It took them (my brother and my mother, the registered nurse) a while
before they could get the feedings systematized, but now its pretty
much down to a science.  They make sure that the feedings are not too
cold or hot, and I have seen how they do it--it is certainly slow and
measured.  They are also extremely attentive to such things as
residuals, etc., in order to guard against blockages and other
potential problems.  They actually measure residuals volumetrically,
and they are always on the ball if there is too much.

    Thanks as well for the input regarding the spitting.  I
believe the spitting is semi-independent from the feedings, but it
might increase during or just afterwards.  I will forward the
suggestion of the damp washcloth to chew on to my family as well.  And
I will certainly tell my family about the posey which might limit
movement--although I don't quite know what a 'posey' is.

    P.S.  What's a 'posey'?

    Thanks again!

Scott
Lesanne - 05 May 2005 03:51 GMT
A posey is a sort of vest that is usually used to keep a person from rising
from a wheelchair, but can be fixed so that it limits arm movements
somewhat.

Signature

LESLIE ARNIM

>
>>Well there goes my morning thoughts, if your Mom is a nurse. I was
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Scott
Scott Begg - 05 May 2005 06:15 GMT
>A posey is a sort of vest that is usually used to keep a person from rising
>from a wheelchair, but can be fixed so that it limits arm movements
>somewhat.

    Thank you for the description.  I finally got through this
evening and spoke with my mother.  She was familiar with what a posey
was, but was nonetheless very appreciative for the ideas and
suggestions.

Scott
Adelle - 03 May 2005 17:57 GMT
Scott,

Hi! My name is Adelle and my Father in Law passed away a few years ago from
an unspecified dementia that affected the frontal lobes earlier than AD.
Pick's is one of the Frontal Lobe dementia's and FLD behaves a little
differently than AD and other dementias which tend to begin in the rear
parts of the brain first. With my FIL, the first signs were not being able
to retrieve the word he wanted (so he'd talk around something like, "You
know, the red thing that goes on the pan" for potholder), obsessively
entering contests and buying screwdrivers, forgetting where he'd hidden
things and not being able to follow the instructions for woodworking (his
major hobby).

In FLD, the functions of the frontal lobe deteriorate first, progressing
toward the back of the brain. problems with oral motor skills and language
tend to crop up, hence the inability to swallow, even though the remainder
of his body is fairly hale. The time a FLD patient has in deep,
uncommunicative dementia is longer than the typical AD patient because of
where the damage in the brain occurs. So this need for a feeding tube can
happen while the patient is otherwise pretty healthy physically. Sometimes
it even occurs before a patient loses continence and mobility.

Oral issues tend to present a lot in FLD's. The spitting is both the
inability to swallow and the removal of 'executive function,' that voice on
the shoulder which says something isn't appropriate or OK. He just doesn't
know anymore that spitting is rude, or unsanitary or anything. All he knows
is that there is something in his mouth and he has to get rid of it.

No wisdom here. My FIL had cardiac problems which took him after a cascade
of stuff  occurred from surgery for a broken hip. He never got to this
stage. I just remember reading on some website that many FLD patients lose
skills early and often need to be in NH's sooner in the disease process than
other dementia patients.

Have you done web searches on Pick's and other FLD's?

Adelle

>>Hey Scott. I am a nurse, and I lurk here. My Mom has Alzheimer's, and yes
>>each situation is what it is where it is. People have strong opinions, and
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Scott
Scott Begg - 04 May 2005 07:56 GMT
>Scott,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>things and not being able to follow the instructions for woodworking (his
>major hobby).

    Thank you very much for your reply, Adelle.  It took awhile,
but after numerous visits to doctors, my father was diagnosed some
time ago with Pick's Disease, and not Alzheimer's Disease.  We all (my
family and me) have done some research on this, and understand that
this means that the forebrain functions are the first to go, i.e.,
judgement, decision-making, inhibitions, etc., followed by language /
oral skills / throat and swallowing mechanisms...  We have seen just
this sort of progression in him.  What's interesting to note is that
for a while we were not giving him credit with being as aware and
responsive as he actually was, and it took us a while before we began
to understand that due to this pathway of progressive loss of
oral/motor functions, he took much longer to process information and
make it known in verbal communication... however, he could still
comment on things (to a rudimentary degree)--we just had to be
significantly more patient, as it would take him longer to process and
to get the words out.  Now, of course, communication is pretty much
reduced to yes and no questions.

>In FLD, the functions of the frontal lobe deteriorate first, progressing
>toward the back of the brain. problems with oral motor skills and language
>tend to crop up, hence the inability to swallow, even though the remainder
>of his body is fairly hale. The time a FLD patient has in deep,
>uncommunicative dementia is longer than the typical AD patient because of
>where the damage in the brain occurs.

    I wonder if you know the heritability of this disease.  To
what degree might it be hereditary?  I don't believe anyone in his
family suffered from it (none of his brothers or sisters--five in
total--and neither parent).  I also wonder when onset of symptoms are
first manifested.

    A short aside...

    I read through your list of symptoms, and couldn't help but
notice that most of the symptoms are things I notice in myself, e.g.,
not being able to retrieve a word and talking around it--I find this
happens about once a day with me, but I sure hope I can attribute it
to stress or scatterbrainedness on my part (I've pretty much always
been scatterbrained, and tend to suffer from the TOT Phenomenon--the
'Tip of the Tongue' Phenomenon, that is)... Also, there is my
diagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), my forgetting where I
put things, and even my inability to follow directions... Of course,
when I talk about these symptoms, I have to be honest and state that
I've pretty much had them most all of my life to some degree more or
less (I'm in my 40s now).  I tend to be a pack rat, and it's amazing I
can find anything, and with respect to 'following directions'...what I
mean by that is being able to read and follow any 'directions' or
'technical manual' that accompanies any of my software or hardware or
computer or some modern technology (DVD players to my cheap digital
LED wrist watch).  I've gotten to the point that I simply have no
patience for any of these 'manuals' or directions anymore.  In the
last case of my wrist watch, I am amazed how a fine-printed one or two
sheets of paper translated fifteen different ways from Chinese into a
jargonized quasi-English can be so impenetrable these days...

    Anyway, I sure hope I'm not the only one who has things like
this happen to them occasionally...

>So this need for a feeding tube can
>happen while the patient is otherwise pretty healthy physically. Sometimes
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Adelle

    I've done a little research on Pick's, and my brother has done
certainly much more.  Now that I know of FLDs, I can expand my online
search.  If you or anyone else might know of any good weblinks to
pages that would be helpful, I would certainly appreciate them.

    Thanks again for all the good information you've given me, and
I will relay it back to my family.

Scott
Adelle - 05 May 2005 02:17 GMT
(Lots of snippage to save bandwidth)

>  What's interesting to note is that
> for a while we were not giving him credit with being as aware and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to get the words out.  Now, of course, communication is pretty much
> reduced to yes and no questions.

Yes!!! In some ways, FLD patients are much higher functioning for longer,
but are still just as impaired because of the communication issues (and the
behavioral ones, too.)

> I wonder if you know the heritability of this disease.  To
> what degree might it be hereditary?  I don't believe anyone in his
> family suffered from it (none of his brothers or sisters--five in
> total--and neither parent).  I also wonder when onset of symptoms are
> first manifested.

I believe I recall that Pick's is the one that is not inherited. But the FLD
which is not Pick's has a 50% inheritability rate.

> A short aside...
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> been scatterbrained, and tend to suffer from the TOT Phenomenon--the
> 'Tip of the Tongue' Phenomenon, that is)...

But it's not multiple times per conversation, is it? And it's not getting
progressively worse? We all have TOT moments. That's human. It's how it
increases that's a sign.

>Also, there is my
> diagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), my forgetting where I
> put things, and even my inability to follow directions... Of course,
> when I talk about these symptoms, I have to be honest and state that
> I've pretty much had them most all of my life to some degree more or
> less (I'm in my 40s now).

LOL Doesn't count, then. If you never had the skill, you can't lose it.

> I've done a little research on Pick's, and my brother has done
> certainly much more.  Now that I know of FLDs, I can expand my online
> search.  If you or anyone else might know of any good weblinks to
> pages that would be helpful, I would certainly appreciate them.

I did the search probably 5 years ago. Wiped it out after my FIL passed
away.
Sorry.

Adelle
BeeBek - 09 May 2005 00:27 GMT
> >Hey Scott. I am a nurse, and I lurk here. My Mom has Alzheimer's, and yes
> >each situation is what it is where it is. People have strong opinions, and
> >unless they want to come stay with your family for a month or so and

> >evaluate what is going on, maybe they ought to keep those opinions to
> >themselves (that one would be mine). I had to wonder if possibly there is
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> reasons I won't go into here (part of the 'complexity' of the
> situation), telephone contact is sporadic and inconsistent at best.

Hi scott:

Yeah, the telephone problem is very common, and it
happened in my family as well.  What it ended up
being, however, was the attempt to control
the auditory environment on behalf of my
father (some dimentia patients are prone
to noise, and they get agitated quite
easily; they tend to expres their agitatin
in "non-linear" pathways as well.

does you Dad need quite "spaces"
and "low-noise areas?" perhaps he has
a tendancy to agitate if the phone
rings during certain times of the
day.  Is he cared for at home?

just a thought

BeeBek

>     I probably should also have included the information in my
> last two posts that my mother is a Registered Nurse, and my sister is
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Scott
Scott Begg - 10 May 2005 06:50 GMT
>Yeah, the telephone problem is very common, and it
>happened in my family as well.  What it ended up
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>BeeBek

    Thank you for your contribution, BeeBek.

    As you surmised, this is the situation.  It is an attempt to
control the auditory environment, as my father becomes quite agitated
by disruptions like the telephone, especially during feeding time.

    And yes, the house has been divided up into 'aural zones'.

    Thanks again!

Scott
BeeBek - 09 May 2005 00:29 GMT
> >Hey Scott. I am a nurse, and I lurk here. My Mom has Alzheimer's, and yes
> >each situation is what it is where it is. People have strong opinions, and
> >unless they want to come stay with your family for a month or so and

> >evaluate what is going on, maybe they ought to keep those opinions to
> >themselves (that one would be mine). I had to wonder if possibly there is
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> reasons I won't go into here (part of the 'complexity' of the
> situation), telephone contact is sporadic and inconsistent at best.

Hi scott:

Yeah, the telephone problem is very common, and it
happened in my family as well.  What it ended up
being, however, was the attempt to control
the auditory environment on behalf of my
father (some dimentia patients are prone
to noise, and they get agitated quite
easily; they tend to expres their agitatin
in "non-linear" pathways as well.

does you Dad need quite "spaces"
and "low-noise areas?" perhaps he has
a tendancy to agitate if the phone
rings during certain times of the
day.  Is he cared for at home?

just a thought

BeeBek

>     I probably should also have included the information in my
> last two posts that my mother is a Registered Nurse, and my sister is
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Scott
Songbird - 04 May 2005 16:29 GMT
> Hey Scott. I am a nurse, and I lurk here. My Mom has Alzheimer's, and yes
> each situation is what it is where it is. People have strong opinions, and
> unless they want to come stay with your family for a month or so and
> evaluate what is going on, maybe they ought to keep those opinions to
> themselves (that one would be mine). I> I

I get suggestions that I change settings on my
> computer because my messages don't wrap, and always one or two useful
> posts.

Somehow you got it straightened out then -- you're wrapping now and I'm glad
you're hanging in with us!

Songbird
BeeBek - 09 May 2005 00:16 GMT
> >    Hello everyone!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 146 lines]
> so.  But our parents did not make the same decision, and neither have
> we, their children--at least not yet.

Scott:

you seem like a very nice person - it shows
that you possess both intelligence and compassion
(which are rare together!).  I empathize with your
family's situation - it is a tough one at best!

I'm a bit unclear on one issue, and I remain
uncertain if its discussion would be helpful
or distracting.  Also, I wish neither to offend
nor to cause discord by discussing such.

Here it goes:

I'm confused.  who is making
health care and/or personal care discisions
for you father?  On the one hand, you make
mention of a family "concensus," thus implying
that your family members "vote" on health care
and/or personal care issues (thereby arriving
at "concensus discisions)."  ut, you also
state that your mother has the role of
making care discisions for  your father.
Additionally, you imply the following:
that since YOU are not the primary
caregiver for your father, YOU are not the
one who makes decisions in the areas of
health care and/or personal care. Finally,
(above) you make mention of "living wills."
Don't be sore at me, because this area is
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in your situation:
Question:  does your father have a living
will or a living trust?  If so, have you
seen it, read it, and/or obtained copies
of it?

There is an incredibly important document
called an "Advanced HealthCare Directive."
In this document, your father would have
stated his desires in the areas of health
care and personal care, he would have
designated representatives having
"durable powers of attorney," and he
would have had the opportunity to make
very specific who has the powers to
make health care and/or personal care
descisions.  Usually, the person designated
to make these descisions are NOT the
ones performing the healthcare and/or
personal care (for obvious reasons
involving rest and respite, etc.)
Also, alternates are many designate
if original representative are not
able to make such descisions for
different reasons.

Again, I don't wish to be disruptive
or hurtful, and feel free to email
me for more confidential communi-
cation if you so desire.

Otherwise, I feel the "chew toy"
is a GREAT idea, however could
he not end up chewing things
MORE since the toy would be
encouraging his oral fixation?

BeeBek
b_bek_045@yahoo.com

In hijacking an honest request
> for assistance and turning it into an opportunity for personal
> fulmination, one defeats the whole purpose of a forum such as this,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Scott
Scott Begg - 10 May 2005 07:05 GMT
>Scott:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>seen it, read it, and/or obtained copies
>of it?

    Thank you again for the contribution.

    The arrangement is somewhat informal.  My mother makes all the
final decisions, but we have family meetings, where everyone
contributes, and we all discuss the issues.  From this, a 'consensus'
is reached, or at the least an agreement from all parties.  We are all
concerned primarily about our father's ultimate wellbeing these final
days/weeks/months/? that he has with us, and generally it is not
difficult to obtain an agreement.  There have been some instances of
conflict: in one case, my father had already been placed in an AD
facility, and one family member had complained about the medication
schedule/dosage/etc... My father had a strict regimen, and the staff
was made aware of this, and we discovered after a bit of snooping
around (actually, this family member did) that 'behind closed doors',
the facility was halving the dosage of medication given to my father
without informing us and without our permission.  They were called on
this numerous times, but kept doing this.  After a family
meeting--called primarily by this family member--the situation was
discussed, and my mother came around to agree that he was to be taken
out, and he was...
    Other than the rare situation such as that, it has been my
mother who has made the important decisions, although via family
meeting, consensus, and general innovation upon individuals' parts,
some decisions can be modified if a better way to accomplish something
is discovered, e.g., a better way to guide my father while walking
with him, etc.

    The major reason why I say that I am not involved (much) in
the decision making is simply because I live farther away than anyone
else, while all my other siblings live in the same city as my parents.
As such, I can not visit them more often than once every two weeks or
so.

>There is an incredibly important document
>called an "Advanced HealthCare Directive."
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>BeeBek
>b_bek_045@yahoo.com

    In response to your last question, As far as I know, I do not
believe that my father ever had a living will or a living trust.

    Thank you again for your perspective.

Scott
Jo Ann Malina - 23 May 2005 12:34 GMT
BeeBek <b_bek_045@yahoo.com> is alleged to have said:

> Otherwise, I feel the "chew toy"
> is a GREAT idea, however could
> he not end up chewing things
> MORE since the toy would be
> encouraging his oral fixation?

I am catching up on some older threads and have a comment:

A "chew toy" for someone who can't swallow seems like a bad idea, as it
will stimulate production of saliva that might be choked on.  Whatever
it is would have to also absorb the saliva, and be replaced in a timely
manner.

However, if what he wants is not to chew but just to clench his jaw,
an athletic mouthguard might do the trick.  Along with protecting the
teeth from sports injuries, they are also used to prevent teeth grinding.

But whatever brings a little comfort to someone in this state is ok
by me.

Signature

Jo Ann Malina, make spamthis best to find my address
Moral qualities rule the world; but at short distances, the senses are
 despotic.    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson, _Essays_

BeeBek - 09 May 2005 00:18 GMT
> >    Hello everyone!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 145 lines]
> with dignity, and I respect your courage and foresight in having done
> so.

Scott:

you seem like a very nice person - it shows
that you possess both intelligence and compassion
(which are rare together!).  I empathize with your
family's situation - it is a tough one at best!

I'm a bit unclear on one issue, and I remain
uncertain if its discussion would be helpful
or distracting.  Also, I wish neither to offend
nor to cause discord by discussing such.

Here it goes:

I'm confused.  who is making
health care and/or personal care discisions
for you father?  On the one hand, you make
mention of a family "concensus," thus implying
that your family members "vote" on health care
and/or personal care issues (thereby arriving
at "concensus discisions)."  ut, you also
state that your mother has the role of
making care discisions for  your father.
Additionally, you imply the following:
that since YOU are not the primary
caregiver for your father, YOU are not the
one who makes decisions in the areas of
health care and/or personal care. Finally,
(above) you make mention of "living wills."
Don't be sore at me, because this area is
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in your situation:
Question:  does your father have a living
will or a living trust?  If so, have you
seen it, read it, and/or obtained copies
of it?

There is an incredibly important document
called an "Advanced HealthCare Directive."
In this document, your father would have
stated his desires in the areas of health
care and personal care, he would have
designated representatives having
"durable powers of attorney," and he
would have had the opportunity to make
very specific who has the powers to
make health care and/or personal care
descisions.  Usually, the person designated
to make these descisions are NOT the
ones performing the healthcare and/or
personal care (for obvious reasons
involving rest and respite, etc.)
Also, alternates are many designate
if original representative are not
able to make such descisions for
different reasons.

Again, I don't wish to be disruptive
or hurtful, and feel free to email
me for more confidential communi-
cation if you so desire.

Otherwise, I feel the "chew toy"
is a GREAT idea, however could
he not end up chewing things
MORE since the toy would be
encouraging his oral fixation?

BeeBek
b_bek_045@yahoo.com

But our parents did not make the same decision, and neither have
> we, their children--at least not yet.  In hijacking an honest request
> for assistance and turning it into an opportunity for personal
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Scott
 
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