Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / December 2004
Financial advice - UK
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Roy - 10 Dec 2004 20:06 GMT Hi
As eldest of 4 middle-aged offspring I am trying to sort out my mother's financial affairs on behalf of me and siblings. My mother was diagnosed with the disease 7 years ago (our father died some years before) and moved in to live with my eldest sister. At the time I suggested that my mother's funds be distribituted amongst us 4, mainly because it seemed that it was a matter of time before our mother needed full time residential care and Social Services would latch onto her savings. My mother's total assets amount to only ?50,000 thereabouts (a total ball-park figure - the house was sold in haste for peanuts, against my advice at the time, and all her savings / insurance from father's death were put into low-risk almost nil-interest-bearing building society accounts). To say my sisters have no financial savvy is pretty much an understatement.
Two of my sisters accused me of being cold and mercenary, and trying to profit from our mother's illness, the third saw my point of view. My view was simple: our mother had always said she wanted her estate to get split 4 ways, with the hope of her money helping towards her grand-children. I saw no point of leaving her money sitting idle waiting for the day the government could spend it. At the time this caused a massive split amonst us, my elder sister got power of attorney (along with the youngest sister, who also disgareed with me) and carried on with looking after our mother. I found their attitude frustrating - especially as between us we have chidren who could have used some of this money (computers, musical instruments, school trips etc) - none of us is well off. The older sister has to consult several astrologers, and various 0890 numbers, before she will make the simplest of decisions and has never (to my knowledge) looked at any of our mother's finances since she moved in - thus we only found out today that she has allowed a direct debit to continue on a joint-life insurance policy for our parents - and he died in 1989! The other sister with power of attorney took over the duty with absolutely no concept of what was required of her. Quite simply they have been a disaster in respect of our mother's money affairs - but I am the first to say they have given her total and unconditional love and care. I certainly could not have, I'm far too squeemish, so I'm glad I live at the other end of the country.
Our mother has recently deteriorated considerably and is now in hospital - we spoke with her consultant last night and he made it clear that our mother is highly unlikely to be able to go back to my sister's house. At the moment our mother is extremely agitated whenever anybody tries to handle her, especially nursing staff. I understand that if she is eventually deemed to require full time hospital care (as opposed to a nursing home) then the NHS pick up the bill - however this appears to be a minefield, with health authorities across the country having different policies on diagnosis for long-term care.
So, working on the scenario that our mother will have to go into a nursing home, is it reasonable for our mother's assets to now be distribituted amongst us, without Social Services trying to claw it back in (say) several months time? My sisters are today all in agreement that we should have acted along the lines I first suggested, so as far as I am concerned we need to get moving fast - that is, if it is not too late. My argument is that our mother's wishes were always clear and we would not be cheating anybody at this point ie before the doctors decide her fate.
I would appreciate any advice.
Roy
Tumbleweed - 10 Dec 2004 22:52 GMT > Hi > > As eldest of 4 middle-aged offspring I am trying to sort out my mother's > financial affairs on behalf of me and siblings. <snip> Roy, it might sound a harsh thing to say, but what you would have liked to have happened many years ago is irrelevant, and what you and your siblings thought then is also irrelevant. Your message could be boiled down to 'my mother has ?50k in b soc accounts that my sister has POA for, should we try and hide them from soc services in case they try and use them for nursing care?'
In whose name are the building society accounts? If its your mothers, which I think is what you are saying, then its really irrelevant what you do now, in that if social services decide she should pay, and they find out that the 'family' (which in reality is the sister with POA) have 'assett stripped' them, they could always get the money back through legal means.
You could of course deny she had any assetts and hope you get away with it, or on the other hand you might want to use them to help her in her final years instead of her ending up in any old home the local soc services decrees she should go to.
Did your mother make a living will of any sort? Did she ever say 'I'd rather you spent the money on school trips / computers for the kids(aka skiing trips and an XBox and mobile phones?)instead of putting me in a decent nursing home? If not, then I'd say spend the money on a decent home until it runs out. It should buy her 5 years at a guess.
Bear in mind you did say "I would appreciate any advice" :-)
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 11 Dec 2004 01:12 GMT Roy, your mother is alive, will need a lot of specialized care, and may live for some years yet, and in a variety of care situations as things change and progress.
You seem not interested at all in her comfort or care, or what may be in her best interest to ensure she has the best possible quality of life. What if your sister wishes to hire extra help to keep her in a home setting? What if your mother needs specialized care beyond what basic national health coverage includes? What if she needs to be in a hospital for only a short time, and then in a nursing home beyond that? Her assets are what she worked for all her life, her savings for her care until she dies. You have no rights to them while she lives. She has already given you your real inheritance - she raised you and made sure you had opportunities. Anything else you might happen to get is a bonus. I can understand why your sisters are unhappy with you.
Mary G.
Dennis P. Harris - 11 Dec 2004 03:24 GMT > Roy, your mother is alive, will need a lot of specialized care, and may > live for some years yet, and in a variety of care situations as things [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > bonus. > I can understand why your sisters are unhappy with you. I'll echo what Mary said, along with the comment that if you want legal advice ASK A SOLICITOR who is knowledgeable about the particular problem. Of course Roy is probably too cheap to pay for that.
And if I were the sister with the POA, I would use the money for your mother, and if there was anything left over, I would give it to the children that took care of her for so long, not to the child who lived far away, hardly ever visited, and only wanted to spend her money while she was still alive.
:^p... Roy - 11 Dec 2004 10:33 GMT >> Roy, your mother is alive, will need a lot of specialized care, and may >> live for some years yet, and in a variety of care situations as things [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > child who lived far away, hardly ever visited, and only wanted to > spend her money while she was still alive. Thanks for the replies. I can understand exactly the sentiments underlying each one, and I empathise with them - were I an outsider looking in then what I'd see is a scheming family with no interest in mother's welfare. However this is not the case. I'd be more than happy for every penny of our mother's money to go towards her care if it really would make a difference for her. Our impression is that should our mother end up in a nursing home then the level of care she would receive would be the same whether she had ?10 in the bank or ?100,000 - the local authority would provide the same level of care regardless but would use her assets above 12,500 on a sliding scale up to ?20,000, then the whole lot whilst she was in their care.
That's why I have asked for advice - we do not know any differently to what I outlined above. It is also why I asked for UK advice - I need facts, not judgement - were I looking for pious and self-righteous indignation I'd have asked further afield.
Our mother suffered dreadfully during the life of our father, and we were delighted (no exaggeration) when he died - we saw a chance for our mother to finally start living a life. She had just started building one when she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Life is cruel, and bloody governments are cruel - I want what is best for my mother but I see no merit in chucking her money at the local authority if it will have absolutely no impact on the quality of her remaining years. Of course, were we living in Scotland this thread would not exist.
So, on that note, if you think my logic is wrong I'd be delighted if you could tell me what the options are as regards the levels of care available to my mother. Oh, and the reason I became an absentee son was the same as why my sisters left home at age 16 - to escape a regime Saddam himself could not have devised. I built a new life as far away as possible, my sisters closer to "home", so please don't judge me on that one.
Roy
Tumbleweed - 11 Dec 2004 11:53 GMT >>> Roy, your mother is alive, will need a lot of specialized care, and may >>> live for some years yet, and in a variety of care situations as things [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > 12,500 on a sliding scale up to ?20,000, then the whole lot whilst she was > in their care. Then you are incorrect, or at least IME. When I looked around for my father, we found a huge variety of homes, some OK, some bad, some indifferent, one good. My father is in the good one, a private one but funded by local soc services. Some of the others were, and I choose my words carefully, awful.We were very lucky to get the one he is in. I believe we had the option (but didnt need to use it), to put additional money in to get the home we wanted. eg if the local authority pay 500, and the home you want is 700 hundred you can pay the extra 200. Or, if you found the right home, you could put her in it privately at 700 even if they wouldnt pay and want her to go into one at 500 even if you dont like that. If I were you I would do this; -Look for homes. -You will probably only find one or two that you like. -See if social services will fund it. -If they wont, put her in the one you like using the 50k. -Worry about what happens when the money runs out at the time, not now.
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Roy - 11 Dec 2004 12:50 GMT > Then you are incorrect, or at least IME. When I looked around for my > father, we found a huge variety of homes, some OK, some bad, some [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -If they wont, put her in the one you like using the 50k. > -Worry about what happens when the money runs out at the time, not now. Thanks very much Tumbleweed
That's exactly the kind of advice I am after. My mother was admitted to hospital last week and my sisters are looking to me to explore the way ahead. As I'm off to France to visit my daughter over Xmas and New Year I'm frantically exploring all our options before I go. I'd sooner we go into the New Year with some clear direction than leave it until the last minute - we expect the hospital will have worked out some sort of care strategy by then.
Could you recomend any online resources for selecting suitable care?
Roy
Tumbleweed - 11 Dec 2004 14:32 GMT >> Then you are incorrect, or at least IME. When I looked around for my >> father, we found a huge variety of homes, some OK, some bad, some [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Roy Sorry, we just looked around locally, closeness to my mother was one of the main criteria. my mother had a book from soc services with lists of homes. You also have to go look at them anyway, so about all the net could give you is a phone number and address.
One piece of advice, (IMHO) whilst your mother is in hospital you are in the 'driving seat' when it comes to getting a home, in that they want her out of hospital to release the bed. So, whilst there will be pressure on you to move, dont take the first place offered (unless its good) and bear in mind that you may be able to hold out to get another place you want, even if its more expensive on the grounds they will trade the extra money off against the free bed (If tahts the case. Also IMHO once she is in a home you will find it much harder to get her moved, so you do need to make sure you get it right first time.
OTOH, all these decisions seem to be local so maybe your local authority will be less helpful than ours.
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 11 Dec 2004 13:42 GMT Roy, what happened to you years ago is not an excuse for your behaviour now. Your father may have been Satan incarnate, but he's dead, and the here and now is a mother who needs attention and support, and what happened or didn't happen 7 years ago or 27 or 47 years ago means nothing. Lots of us had crappy childhoods and miserable parents. Its not about what happens to you, its about what you do with it - and having a crummy childhood doesn't give you any special rights to his money, now in the hands of your poor mother.
I'm a Canadian in Toronto, and we have a similar medical system to the UK, and there ARE special services and small comforts that a family with some resources can provide to a person even in a publicly funded not-for-profit nursing home - things we used my MILs assets to provide for her when we saw that overworked staff could not always provide the kind of care we would have wanted for ourselves, were we in her shoes.
I also am an extremely strong believer in socialized medicine, and understand to the heart that the sliding scale payment system for nursing homes is about ensuring everyone is included, and I thank heaven that I live in a place where unlike the US, reasonable care was within reach of this middle class family. Its not about trying to take advantage and shirk paying what you are able to pay - which in the end, makes the care available for everyone that much poorer.
If you really wish to make a grab for her assets, your first step needs to be to a solicitor to understand the law. Here in Ontario, financial powers of attorney do not give the person accountable the right to seize assets and distribute them to others for their benefit - not that your sister would agree to do this anyway, and I suspect you'd need to go to court to have her supplanted as POA....now that would be an interesting presentation.Your mother is not able to gift assets because she isn't competent to do so, and even if she were able, there are limits to gifts because they have tax and other implications.
You asked for opinions. Sorry you don't like them. I still agree with the older sisters.
Mary G.
Dennis P. Harris - 11 Dec 2004 19:47 GMT > That's why I have asked for advice - we do not know any differently to what > I outlined above. It is also why I asked for UK advice so pay a knowledgeable solicitor for her or his advice. usenet newsgroups are NOT the place to seek legal advice, which is what you want.
Roy - 13 Dec 2004 22:53 GMT > > That's why I have asked for advice - we do not know any differently to what > > I outlined above. It is also why I asked for UK advice
> so pay a knowledgeable solicitor for her or his advice. usenet > newsgroups are NOT the place to seek legal advice, which is what > you want. I disagree Dennis. You are obviously not UK, or you are genuinely thick, because were you UK-based or slightly intelligent you would have grasped what I was getting at.
Our mother herself (back in 1989 when she made her will) was vehemently against the idea of the state procuring her meagre estate after her death. Through family in-fighting about our mother's best interests we have procrastinated from 1997 until now - nobody would talk to anybody else.
However we now are trying to right our mistakes.
As the eldest (and the boy) I am doing my best to get the best outcome for our mother - my sisters have asked me to do this because they know I am ok with figures, and they know I will try to do the right thing.
Our mother has always wanted her estate to go to her grand-children. The government want my mother's estate. I want my mother to live her remaining time in comfort, and not squalor.
My question has always been how do I maximise my mother's comfort whilst minimising the government's income, at the same time maximising our children's inheritence?
I do not need Oprah-watching brain-dead types trying to sound off please. Dennis, this is strictly speaking a legal matter, however a number of people have seen fit to help - so please climb under another soap-box.
Roy
Tumbleweed - 13 Dec 2004 22:58 GMT >> > That's why I have asked for advice - we do not know any differently to > what [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > minimising the government's income, at the same time maximising our > children's inheritence? IMHO the first and last are mutally incompatible, in that you cannot maximise one without affecting the other negatively. Concentrate on your mother first,if there is anything left over you might be able to keep it. The best way of having some left over is to persuade (cajole, harrass, annoy) the authorities into providing care on medical grounds as she has been diagnosed with Az. After that, the next best way is probably to conceal the money but that has probably been left WAY too late, had it been xferred over to you all 7 years ago you'd probably be OK. But it wasnt (AIUI).
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Roy - 13 Dec 2004 23:14 GMT As ever Tumbleweed,
Thank you for some dispassionate advice.
Roy
> >> > That's why I have asked for advice - we do not know any differently to > > what [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > had it been xferred over to you all 7 years ago you'd probably be OK. But it > wasnt (AIUI). Dennis P. Harris - 14 Dec 2004 03:39 GMT > I disagree Dennis. You are obviously not UK, or you are genuinely thick, > because were you UK-based or slightly intelligent you would have grasped > what I was getting at. How the hell to do you expect us to "grasp what you were getting at" if you didn't state what you were "getting at"? Do you think everyone in the group is psychic? Sorry, I learned a long time ago to NOT read between the lines of newsgroup posts, and to assume NOTHING.
> Our mother herself (back in 1989 when she made her will) was vehemently > against the idea of the state procuring her meagre estate after her death. Then you should have said so. Your original post never said a damn thing about your mother's wishes.
> Through family in-fighting about our mother's best interests we have > procrastinated from 1997 until now - nobody would talk to anybody else. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > government want my mother's estate. I want my mother to live her remaining > time in comfort, and not squalor. What your mother wants and what the law apparently requires (from what other Brits have posted here) are obviously two different things. I gather that Britain has similar rules to ours --- the government will only pay for nursing home care after the patient's assets have been exhausted.
> My question has always been how do I maximise my mother's comfort whilst > minimising the government's income, at the same time maximising our > children's inheritence? You don't, if you want to 1) obey the law, and 2) do what IMHO is morally right. Those that can afford it *should* contribute to the cost of their care. *Free* care should be reserved for those that can't afford to pay, unless the law provides it free for everyone (which IMHO *should* be what happens!).
> I do not need Oprah-watching brain-dead types trying to sound off please. I don't watch Oprah, and I'm not brain dead. Your initial post, and its followup, read as if familial greed was the most important thing.
> Dennis, this is strictly speaking a legal matter, however a number of people > have seen fit to help - so please climb under another soap-box. If you re-read your initial post from the viewpoint of someone who knew nothing about your situation, you might discover how selfish it seemed. You then followed that with another post which also sounded like your main concern was greed, not your mother's care. It's no wonder that you got such negative reactions from some of us.
I have no desire to help someone whose intent is to cheat the government's health programs of the payments to which they are rightfully entitled. If you want help breaking the law, don't ask for it here.
PLONK.
Tumbleweed - 14 Dec 2004 07:31 GMT <snip>>
> I have no desire to help someone whose intent is to cheat the > government's health programs of the payments to which they are > rightfully entitled. If you want help breaking the law, don't > ask for it here. Dennis, FWIW, in the UK, the opposite has been more recently the case, in that the government has been cheating the people, by making them pay for care which *according to the law* should have been free. Many thousands of people had to go as far as selling their homes to pay for free care. When they were defeated in law, they have then spent literally years before paying back the money, and as many of the people involved are elderly a significant proportion have died before they got their refunds.
Having said that, Roys originally post did f(rom a neutral POV, and IMHO) seemingly concentrate on getting grandmas money to the relatives rather than concentrate on getting better care for her. I suspect thats because Roy isnt yet aware how different homes can be, unfortanately it isnt the case that all homes are the same and that whatever one you'll be in it will be fine.
 Signature Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
donnah - 11 Dec 2004 14:29 GMT Roy, no advice but best wishes for getting it sorted out quickly! Do find a solicitor who can help you and your sisters make a decision. For myself, I have not walked in your shoes so I cannot/will not make any judgments about your actions. I know how hard it is to put into words events/feelings/your history in a post...some things are so involved and hurtful that they are hard to verbalize. That said, I do agree that your Mother's comfort must come first. And you could recognize what your sisters have done to help her and act accordingly... Life is not fair and cr*p happens, but we have to adjust and get on with our lives. donnah
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Roy
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