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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / December 2004irrational financial decisions
my 74 year old dad was recently diagnosed with alzheimers and is progressing rapidly. he has always taken care of all financial matters, and my mom was happy to leave that to him. Now he has gone completely fanatacal with trading stocks. without going into too much detail he has made some potentially disasterous decisions. since he has power of attorney over my mom's accounts, he has even taken control in this area. we see a lawyer soon about getting some control over this situation. in the meantime, i don't know exactally how we are going to tell my dad that he can no longer make any more decisions without having someone else approve them. he refuses to believe that he has alzheimers. he thinks that the decisions he is making are absolutely the best. we can't convince him otherwise because he has no capacity to reason, or even discuss any matter when it is in disagreement with him. another one of his major freedoms is about to be taken away from him. first it was driving, and now this. i know is there is no easy\peaceful way to do this, but does anybody have any advice that might help? My advice is to see that lawyer ASAP before he loses everything! Since he is acting like a child, you must treat him as such, leaving him as much dignity as possible while doing it. Gwen > my 74 year old dad was recently diagnosed with alzheimers and is > progressing rapidly. he has always taken care of all financial [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > i know is there is no easy\peaceful way to do this, but does anybody > have any advice that might help? I agree you need to see an atty, but be sure it's an Elder Law atty who knows what he/she is doing. Your question as to how to handle it would be to tell him you are looking out for "both" him and your mother should anything happen to "her", and that you need to take power of attorney yourself. Sounds like your dad is a strong person; probably very intense, so you might begin a conversation with examples of what has happened to "someone else" who became ill and the daughter/son had no way to tend to their finances to get their bills paid - or whatever story you make up. Iin the same breath, "by the way, we need to make sure that scenario doesn't happen to you!" then talk about taking over the P/A. My father refused to depend on anybody for anything. It took a while to convince him that I needed P/A and gave him various scenarios before approaching him about it. It was basically "in case you go to the hospital" I need the right to make decisions in an emergency. (don't forget to record it in Real Property Records to protect him from signing his home away to someone. I hated lying to him, but losing one's ability to reason is part of AD. I never told Dad he had dementia, but that forgetfulness was part of aging and it was now my responsibility to take care of him - like he took care of me. (that made him smile). The more you fight him about it, the more he will resist, the more he will become fearful of the future - and who wouldn't? My point is: reassure him. Don't make him afraid of what's coming, but that "forgetting" is a natural thing and you will ALWAYS be there for him. I need not tell you, that people with AD or dementia begin to read people's expressions so don't let fear show in your eyes when you discuss it. As he goes further into AD, he will depend more on the sense of "touch". So give him more hugs, more kisses, more strokes of his hand or hair. Let me know how it goes. (sorry for the long e-mail) Christina www.saintsohias.org > wrote in message news:9aadff0c.0411251355.127f4d4c@posting.google.com... > my 74 year old dad was recently diagnosed with alzheimers and is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > i know is there is no easy\peaceful way to do this, but does anybody > have any advice that might help? > my 74 year old dad was recently diagnosed with alzheimers and is > progressing rapidly. he has always taken care of all financial [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > i know is there is no easy\peaceful way to do this, but does anybody > have any advice that might help? I am just a lurker at the moment (just discovered my 85 year old uncle is at stage two Alzheimer's and he won't give up his REVOKED driver's license) but I have asked the same questions you are asking. Below is the link to the Mini-Mental State Exam. It is short but can be very revealing to you, his wife and himself. http://www.fpnotebook.com/NEU72.htm Good luck in your efforts. Lots of pride is at risk and you might suspect it will not be given up easily. Doug > I am just a lurker at the moment (just discovered my 85 year old uncle is > at stage two Alzheimer's and he won't give up his REVOKED driver's > license) but I have asked the same questions you are asking. Getting rid of the car is the issue, not the license...it can always be at the mechanics being fixed, back 'tomorrow'  SignatureTumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com >> I am just a lurker at the moment (just discovered my 85 year old >> uncle is at stage two Alzheimer's and he won't give up his REVOKED >> driver's license) but I have asked the same questions you are asking. > > Getting rid of the car is the issue, not the license...it can always > be at the mechanics being fixed, back 'tomorrow' Yes, we know that because we let the air out of two tires to disable his immediate use of the car. So what happened? He called the Auto Club and got them pumped up the next day. His reply was that a friend of his, nearly blind and deaf, does not have a car but also does not have Alzheimer's, so he could drive my uncle from place to place, using the disability license plates to park in the preferred parking areas. I have since recorded "Golden Road" which discusses the end of driving for our elderly population based on impaired driving skills. It was broadcast on public broadcast services (PBS), in the US that was the KCET channel. It was produced by an insurance company that handles over 1000 claims daily. I hope this production by a channel he financially supports will allow him to see the dangers of driving when impaired by health, age, medicines, skills (lack of them now), hearing and reaction times. Of course, having the license revoked ought to have SOME bearing on his willingness to give up driving voluntarily. As to that revoked license, all three policing agencies refused to take a single pro-active step to intervene in getting him to stop driving. Two said to steal his car! FWIW, he uses the retention of his (revoked) license as the valid reason he relies upon to drive! He says it does not show that it is revoked so, for as long as he has it in his possession, he will take the chance of getting stopped by police and then deny he was informed that it was revoked. Doug >>> I am just a lurker at the moment (just discovered my 85 year old >>> uncle is at stage two Alzheimer's and he won't give up his REVOKED [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > course, having the license revoked ought to have SOME bearing on his > willingness to give up driving voluntarily. If you are discussing this 'reasonably' then you havent understood that AZ means the end of rational discussion. Would you argue with an 8 year old about if he was allowed to drive? > As to that revoked license, all three policing agencies refused to take a > single pro-active step to intervene in getting him to stop driving. Two > said to steal his car! I suspect you need to make it 'personal' and have a word with a police officer face to face. > FWIW, he uses the retention of his (revoked) license as the valid reason > he relies upon to drive! He says it does not show that it is revoked so, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Doug You arent trying hard enough. Remove or disable a part and have it taken away. Otherwise the chances are someone will be killed. Or how about having word with a local policeman to see if he could actually take his lience away, saying he has been seen driving? Real lives are at danger here. SignatureTumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com >>>> I am just a lurker at the moment (just discovered my 85 year old >>>> uncle is at stage two Alzheimer's and he won't give up his REVOKED [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > that AZ means the end of rational discussion. Would you argue with an > 8 year old about if he was allowed to drive? Oh, I think you misunderstand what I know about AZ or not. He is an uncle, not a father. I have no powers to impose my will in stead of his own. I have no court order permitting me to make decisions for him. I am not appointed as his guardian. I am exploring these possibilities but the law moves slowly and, as I show in this thread, within the law the officials are unwilling to enforce it. What political powers to I have to change systems steeped in apathy? One thing at a time. The next thing is to follow up with our local newspaper, the Orange County Register, and seek to have them run articles on the state of law enforcement (lack of it really) about drivers unwilling to discontinue driving, even following notice and reporting when their licenses are revoked! >> As to that revoked license, all three policing agencies refused to >> take a single pro-active step to intervene in getting him to stop >> driving. Two said to steal his car! > > I suspect you need to make it 'personal' and have a word with a police > officer face to face. Yeah, that is likely the next step. >> FWIW, he uses the retention of his (revoked) license as the valid >> reason he relies upon to drive! He says it does not show that it is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You arent trying hard enough. That is a bit judgmental I think. I have taken the legal steps open to me, even going past those with vandalizing his car to make it unavailable to use. I have contacted three policing agencies, persisting after each one refused to take pro-active steps. I have sought influential resources to assist in persuasion just short of physically restraining a person that lives alone and outside of my view. I have met with, and discussed here, visits with my uncle and his doctor to discuss the nature of the diagnosis. I have researched AZ as best possible and learned that he, indeed, is at second stage AZ. I have offered to provide all necessary travel accomodations. I am trying my best. > Remove or disable a part and have it > taken away. Easily said, very difficult to do. Besides, the idea you offer might also compromise the legal use of a vehicle driven by another, a paid chauffer or friend. That goes beyond the law's intent doesn't it? It also prevents sale of that vehicle which completely removes its use on a voluntary way. > Otherwise the chances are someone will be killed. Bah. Chances are someone's property will be damaged is more like it. It is possible that death might happen, after all look at what happened in Santa Monica when an 86 year old held his foot to the gas pedal thinking it was the brake? Ten people died. How many instances are we told about that death is caused by AZ drivers? One? > Or how > about having word with a local policeman to see if he could actually > take his lience away, saying he has been seen driving? Real lives are > at danger here. I have done that, by phone, as was told three times that they cannot do anything until he violates the law. Well, in California, retention of a driver's license that is revoked IS against the law. So? They still refuse to take any pro-active steps even if informed of a law being violated. It is a societal problem, one where apathy within law enforcement permits the police to ignore dangerous conditions. Maybe I will mount a campaign to change that apathy, maybe not. Have you ever attempted to change "the system" from outside of it? Doug Doug, I apologise re my message below, didnt realise you were more at arms length..(my bad) even so, PLEASE do whatever you can with local relatives....personally, I would send written letters to local law enforcement on the simple grounds it sdocumented and they are then forced to take action in case they get sued. SignatureTumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com >>>>> >>>>> I am just a lurker at the moment (just discovered my 85 year old [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > Doug > Doug, I apologise re my message below, didnt realise you were more at > arms length..(my bad) even so, PLEASE do whatever you can with local > relatives....personally, I would send written letters to local law > enforcement on the simple grounds it sdocumented and they are then > forced to take action in case they get sued. I had overlooked the idea of documentation of this! Great idea. Thanks. As you must be able to tell, this is all new to me and I am doing as much as I can to get up to speed, including finding this NG, so that I don't make a mess out of things and ruin a relationship with my uncle over becoming the Bad Cop since I don't have the ability to bring on board a Good Cop to fix what is happening. Thanks for letting me know about your misunderstanding about how close my uncle and I are at the moment. Eventually, I thinkn I will likely become his primary caregiver and probably executor of his estate once the AZ moves into stage three. Doug > email replies not necessary but to contact use; > tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] >> >> Doug > Eventually, I thinkn I will likely become his primary caregiver and probably > executor of his estate once the AZ moves into stage three. i hope that he's already done the paperwork. since he's been diagnosed, anything he signs now could be challenged by other relatives as being signed when he was incompetent to do so. >> Eventually, I thinkn I will likely become his primary caregiver and >> probably executor of his estate once the AZ moves into stage three. >> > i hope that he's already done the paperwork. since he's been > diagnosed, anything he signs now could be challenged by other > relatives as being signed when he was incompetent to do so. I, and my sister, ARE the other relatives. Yes, he did sign paperwork allowing my sister to administer his cash accounts. We don't have custodial orders for his person yet. We are considering getting those and will likely move to do so a quickly as possible because of the time it might take to get court action to a stage of making orders. > I am trying my best. and where are his children? >> I am trying my best. >> > and where are his children? Never was married and, if he had kids, they never came forward saying "Hi Dad" yet. Doug > How many instances are we told about that > death is caused by AZ drivers? One? there are a lot, but sometimes they aren't reported that way. most accidents don't make the paper, even when someone is killed. once again, why aren't his CHILDREN doing anything? >> How many instances are we told about that >> death is caused by AZ drivers? One? > > there are a lot, but sometimes they aren't reported that way. > most accidents don't make the paper, even when someone is killed. > once again, why aren't his CHILDREN doing anything? He saw how his sister's kids worked out (my sister and myself) and must have decided one lesson is enough. Since then he has financially supported zero population growth. ;) Doug Doug, dumb question, but why don't you take a pair of scissors to that revoked license? Mary G. > Doug, dumb question, but why don't you take a pair of scissors to that > revoked license? > > Mary G. Well, he won't show it to me for one. I am working on this, in part because he is a man with progressive AZ that still functions in most ways rather well. That it, he sets appointments, keeps a calendar of them, pays his own bills, carries on normal (sorta) phone conversations, goes out to dinner with us and seems pretty normal to everyone around us. With men, this loss of driving privileges, according to 21st Century Insurance, is devastating. He even mentioned once that he would consider suicide over this. Recently, he gave his pistol to the police so that he would not impulsively use it to complete that suicide. So yes, getting the license is a decent thing to try to do so long as we get his permission, which he feels he can grant or not, regardless of its revocation. Thanks for the idea. Doug > > hope this production by a channel he financially supports will allow him to > see the dangers of driving when impaired by health, age, medicines, skills > (lack of them now), hearing and reaction times. Of course, having the > license revoked ought to have SOME bearing on his willingness to give up > driving voluntarily. It won't. HE CANNOT REASON. Like many folks just becoming acquainted with this disease, you seem to think that you can reason with someone who has little or no short term memory. It will not work. Sometimes, folks simply have to be unpleasant and direct, and simply take over and do what needs to be done. It's tough for younger relatives to take on the parental role, but it MUST be cone for their safety AND THE SAFETY OF OTHERS. Don't worry about him getting killed. How will you feel when he has a head-on with a young family and kills them all? >> hope this production by a channel he financially supports will allow >> him to see the dangers of driving when impaired by health, age, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > reason with someone who has little or no short term memory. It > will not work. I don't merely think he can reason, I have seen him reason well enough to out think me. Well, maybe that is not a great leap after all. :) > Sometimes, folks simply have to be unpleasant and direct, and > simply take over and do what needs to be done. It's tough for > younger relatives to take on the parental role, but it MUST be > cone for their safety AND THE SAFETY OF OTHERS. Fortunately, for us and well as him, we are not able to take over his life at this stage of AZ. He lives in a fully secured community of retired folks and rarely must leave his place. When leaving is absolutely needed, then my wife and myself are only 30 minutes away and can take him at a moment's notice. > Don't worry about him getting killed. How will you feel when he > has a head-on with a young family and kills them all? I have really dwelled on that and honestly cannot say I have the right answer yet. I am doing my best. But then Bush is trying to demonstrate how the United States can effectively become the police for the world and that is not working out so great either. Thanks for your reply. >>> hope this production by a channel he financially supports will allow >>> him to see the dangers of driving when impaired by health, age, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Thanks for your reply. dear doug, keep on doing your best. it will all work out. we never thought we would be able to get my mother in law to leave her house and let us take care of her because she was proud and fiercely independent all her life, but there came a time when even she realized she couldn't go it alone anymore. we took her to live here on a ruse that it was just for a visit, and she just never went home. she had a little over three good happy years here with us before her needs became greater than we could manage in a home setting. we learned as we went along, and you will too. coming here we got good advice all during that time. SignatureRegards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox") Thanks! My mother-in-law also suffers from AZ, except it has reached stage 3 and she has gone into and come out of comas a few times. Because of that, we have learned about Alzheimer's wings of various personal care providers. It is especially nice for you to let us know about being able to care for your Mom within your home. Doug >>>> hope this production by a channel he financially supports will >>>> allow him to see the dangers of driving when impaired by health, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > we learned as we went along, and you will too. coming here we got > good advice all during that time. > As to that revoked license, all three policing agencies refused to take a > single pro-active step to intervene in getting him to stop driving. Two > said to steal his car! the next time he does call the cops and have him arrested. sometimes that's what it takes. if they won't arrest someone driving without a license, then it's time to call your city council member or state legislator and ask them to light a fire on their slow, lazy feet. Dennis P. Harris <NO_SPAM_TO_dpharris@gci.net> is alleged to have said: >> As to that revoked license, all three policing agencies refused to take a >> single pro-active step to intervene in getting him to stop driving. Two [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > council member or state legislator and ask them to light a fire > on their slow, lazy feet. But what can they do? If he's arrested, will they put him in jail? Seems a bit harsh, as he hasn't hurt anyone yet. If arrested, will a judge order him committed to an Alzheimer's facility? That would take a full-blown competency hearing, I think. Stopping people from doing something they really want to do, and are still able to do, usually involves locked doors. My mother still wants cigarettes, for instance, but she can't think through calling a cab, going to the store and buying them. Sounds like your uncle hasn't deteriorated that much yet. You say your sister can take over his financial affairs. Now, or only if he becomes incapacitated? I was thinking of her donating the car to charity. Of course, if he's stubborn enough, and has friends that will help him, he might end up driving their cars. The elder law attorney sounds like a better idea all the time. They may have some ideas we don't. I think I'd risk sabotage. Karo syrup in the crankcase will stop him cold (it is a rather expensive repair, and is offered somewhat tongue in cheek...) Draining the oil will cause the engine to seize up and destroy it -- another expensive repair. But something more than flat tires is required, because they can be repaired by a tow truck. You need something that requires the car being towed to the shop. Then you can talk to the garage owner and maybe get him to keep the car for a while. They want to hang onto cars for days for the simplest maintenance work anyway! After all, you just have to keep him from driving until his disease progresses to the point where he can't find a way around missing keys or flat tires. SignatureJo Ann Malina, make spamthis best to find my address Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hour's drive away if your car could go straight upwards. -- Fred Hoyle > Dennis P. Harris <NO_SPAM_TO_dpharris@gci.net> is alleged to have > said: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > something they really want to do, and are still able to do, usually > involves locked doors. No jail caused by me. Hey, if God gave us the right of free will, who am I to change that? Hopefully no one gets hurt, either physically or in the pocketbook by his driving. But the locked doors thing, well that appears to be coming, in not in jail then in a facility to care for him around the clock. Right now, I must admit that he can outmanuever me about this car thing so how really bad can he be? > My mother still wants cigarettes, for instance, but she can't think > through calling a cab, going to the store and buying them. Sounds > like your uncle hasn't deteriorated that much yet. He hasn't. > You say your sister can take over his financial affairs. Now, or only > if he becomes incapacitated? I was thinking of her donating the car > to charity. Of course, if he's stubborn enough, and has friends that > will help him, he might end up driving their cars. That is limited so far, just to administering his cash accounts. No other power of attorney stuff exists yet. > The elder law attorney sounds like a better idea all the time. They > may have some ideas we don't. Right. AND soon, I may be contacting one. > I think I'd risk sabotage. Karo syrup in the crankcase will stop him > cold (it is a rather expensive repair, and is offered somewhat tongue [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a while. They want to hang onto cars for days for the simplest > maintenance work anyway! Nowadays, these cars are pretty well protected from anything other than breaking and entering unless you have a key. I can't get a key so that leaves only the breaking and entering thing. But on Beverly Hills Cop, I noticed Eddie Murphy stuff up the exhaust pipes and that made havoc for the cops trying to chase him down. ;) > After all, you just have to keep him from driving until his disease > progresses to the point where he can't find a way around missing keys > or flat tires. I am working on it. I will keep everyone up to speed about what works, if anything. Doug > No jail caused by me. Hey, if God gave us the right of free will, who am I > to change that? HE DOESN'T HAVE "FREE WILL". HE HAS AN INJURED BRAIN, DAMAGED BY AN AWFUL DISEASE. HE CAN'T REMEMBER, HE ****CANNOT**** REPEAT, CANNOT REASON? sorry to shout, but that's the bare truth, and you need to get used to it. HE'S NOT RESPONSIBLE. free will only exists for those with good mental health, which he does NOT have. you need to get used to the idea that HE IS NOT LEGALLY COMPETENT TO MAKE ANY DECISIONS. i'm sure as hell glad i don't live anywhere near him. look, i had to have the doc take away my mom's license, and was damn near written out of her will for it, but i did it anyway because i didn't want her to kill someone. fortunately she DID stop driving, but i had to "borrow" the car so i could "get to her house quickly in an emergency" (especially after running 8 blocks on a bad ankle to meet the ambulance she called at 3 a.m.) so that she wouldn't "just make a quick trip to the store". it's not easy, BUT YOU MUST DO IT. >> No jail caused by me. Hey, if God gave us the right of free will, >> who am I to change that? > > HE DOESN'T HAVE "FREE WILL". HE HAS AN INJURED BRAIN, DAMAGED BY > AN AWFUL DISEASE. HE CAN'T REMEMBER, HE ****CANNOT**** REPEAT, > CANNOT REASON? At stage three, these things are true, but they are not effectively true at earlier stages. What is true, in this case, is that the State of California revoked his driving privileges and the State of California has laws about requirments that such licenses be returned and replaced with Identification Cards from our DMV. But the State of California does NOT require its police to ever enforce their own laws apparently. As for reasoning, he is doing just fine against me. :( > sorry to shout, but that's the bare truth, and you need to get > used to it. HE'S NOT RESPONSIBLE. free will only exists for > those with good mental health, which he does NOT have. Oh? Well then God needs to fix what he granted. Too bad God is such a dunce isn't it? > you need to get used to the idea that HE IS NOT LEGALLY COMPETENT > TO MAKE ANY DECISIONS. Why me? I am a nephew. What I can do is to raise the awareness of what our society does to enforce the good laws that exist or to avoid enforcement of those that are trained and able to enforce our laws. I am doing that. > i'm sure as hell glad i don't live anywhere near him. Yeah, me too. > look, i had to have the doc take away my mom's license, and was > damn near written out of her will for it, but i did it anyway > because i didn't want her to kill someone. I have been nearly that far with good old happy uncle. > fortunately she DID stop driving, but i had to "borrow" the car > so i could "get to her house quickly in an emergency" (especially > after running 8 blocks on a bad ankle to meet the ambulance she > called at 3 a.m.) so that she wouldn't "just make a quick trip to > the store". We have asked to borrow the car and he said OK. But when time came to borrow it, he refused. He does have a friend in the same complex where he lives that does drive him from place to place. We are seeking to meet up with that friend and we will sooner rather than later. How will be find him? We will copy his private phone book and contact ALL friends to inform them that their friend, my uncle, has rapidly progressing AZ. Then we will seek to gain their help in making him comfortable by donating time and visits to make sure he feels cared for and not isolated. I believe the fear of being isolated drives his need to feel he must drive his car. > it's not easy, BUT YOU MUST DO IT. I am new at this. I am willing to learn as quickly as possible but I am not going to make impulsive decisions that might forever ruin my relationship with him either. Sorry. I am not so compelled to use force yet. Doug > >> No jail caused by me. Hey, if God gave us the right of free will, > >> who am I to change that? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > At stage three, these things are true, but they are not effectively true at > earlier stages.... > As for reasoning, he is doing just fine against me. :( > > you need to get used to the idea that HE IS NOT LEGALLY COMPETENT > > TO MAKE ANY DECISIONS. ... > > it's not easy, BUT YOU MUST DO IT. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I am not so compelled to use force yet. Doug, Dennis will almost certainly reply that your uncle will not remember your acting to take away his ability to drive. Dennis has a black-and-white view of Alzheimers -- a person with Alzheimers IS this, IS that. He hasn't seen your uncle, but the application of an Alzheimers diagnosis for the man casts in concrete an absolute knowledge in Dennis' mind of your uncle's mental state. There are no 'stages' or degrees of dementia in Dennis' worldview -- AD is a precipice, a line in the sand and anyone with symptoms of dementia is on the other side and WILL exhibit the mental behavior right now that fits his stereotype of the AD sufferer. Dennis will insist that anything you do will be quickly forgotten by your uncle -- and will not, in my experience, acknowledge that this is ever untrue. Dennis was urging me from my first appearance to trick my father with so-called 'loving deception' to do things he was unwilling to do, and simply would not recognize as the least bit valid my first-hand observation that my father's cognitive decline was not *yet* to the point that such trickery would work. The truth is, even after a couple of years of gradual decline, the first time I actually engaged in a 'loving deception' -- making a doctor's appointment and telling him I'd told him about it -- he *did* see what was being done, and only went along because the arrangement was for my visiting sister to accompany him and he didn't want to be seen as intransigent to both of us. The truth is, if I had been manipulating and bullying my father as often suggested here (and especially by Dennis) in the conviction that is mental decline was progressed more than it really was, by now my father would be paranoid, distrustful of me (and rationally so), frightened and even more uncertain of his memory loss than he already is. In my father's case, we cut his driving back in stages: no driving at night, with the quiet agreement his vision wasn't good enough; no driving to the big city or on a freeway, where quicker reflexes are needed; then he stopped driving down the country road to his church on Sunday; then stopped driving in to the small-town post office and supermarket, even occasionally; he continued until very recently to drive down the 40mph country road three miles to a hamburger joint where he has a bi-monthly lunch with old friends, and he did so safely, in my opinion. Now he does understand he's not up to driving at all, and expresses gratitude every time I drive him someplace. If I had tried to force him into this position two or three years ago, when he *wasn't* that incapacitated, it would have been disastrous. I'm not saying you shouldn't intervene in your uncle's case, just that dementia is not the one-dimensional state of being that some absolutist statements would have you believe, as you seem to understand; I have unfortunately concluded that I have to kill-file Dennis' posts because of his one-dimensional view and inability or unwillingness to accept as valid direct observations that counter his view of the disease. Have you ridden with your uncle driving someplace recently? What's *your* opinion of how safely he is driving? Any degree of dementia is certainly reason to *closely* monitor the driver's ability (and I think states ought to do yearly tests at least of drivers over 65 to monitor for themselves). Good luck. -- Robert <snip> > I'm not saying you shouldn't intervene in your uncle's case, just that > dementia is not the one-dimensional state of being that some absolutist [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Robert Robert, IIRC the issue is that the state has taken away his driving licence, and therefore, he really shouldnt be driving anyway(irrespective of dementia) and could be liable to jail, and indeed it has happened to others. The options that are open apart from waiting for a disaster (AKA death) to happen, are , speak to a friendly local policeman who may come and take away the licence under pretence he has seen him driving and is being lenient "this time", to *write* to the police (so its documented and they are forced to act for fear of being sued) that he is still driving, or to have a variety of lies as to why the car cannot be driven. If the Az isnt that bad yet, that latter option may not work of course. This is often a huge issue reported here, we were lucky in a way in that my mother made my father sell the car, she simply refused to go in it anymore after an 'incident' and since he couldnt remember where anywhere was he couldnt drive there by himself 9and he would have forgotten where he was going even if he knew how to get there). It still caused issues for about a year after it was sold though , and then he completely forgot about it. And my mother doesnt have the death of anyone on her conscience either. Unfortunately we treat driving as a right rather than a privilege so even deaths caused by people who patently should not be driving are usually classed as 'accidents' rather than murder. SignatureTumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com > Doug, Dennis will almost certainly reply that your uncle will not > remember your acting to take away his ability to drive. Dennis has a > black-and-white view of Alzheimers -- a person with Alzheimers IS > this, IS that. I noticed. I wonder why it is so important to Dennis that people with any level of AZ be deemed so utterly disabled in all ways? > He hasn't seen your uncle, but the application of an > Alzheimers diagnosis for the man casts in concrete an absolute [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > anything you do will be quickly forgotten by your uncle -- and will > not, in my experience, acknowledge that this is ever untrue. Yes, it appears true what you say. 'Ya think he is a Republican? :) > Dennis was urging me from my first appearance to trick my father with > so-called 'loving deception' to do things he was unwilling to do, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > accompany him and he didn't want to be seen as intransigent to both > of us. This also applies toward my uncle's ability to see through deceptive ideas, such as "can we borrow your car" to which his reply intially was "Sure" but after considering that we wanted him to stop driving, he concluded that loaning his car to us would result in never seeing that car again. He then asked if that was the plan. My wife said she intended to return the car when he got his driver's licence reinstated. He then grabbed the keys so that she could not pick them up. No, deceptions can create huge problems that leave the caregivers on the outside unable to provide real care and confidence to their family members with AZ. > The truth is, if I had been manipulating and bullying my > father as often suggested here (and especially by Dennis) in the > conviction that is mental decline was progressed more than it really > was, by now my father would be paranoid, distrustful of me (and > rationally so), frightened and even more uncertain of his memory loss > than he already is. You are absolutely correct here. How could it be otherwise? > In my father's case, we cut his driving back in stages: no driving at > night, with the quiet agreement his vision wasn't good enough; no [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I had tried to force him into this position two or three years ago, > when he *wasn't* that incapacitated, it would have been disastrous. We are doing our best not to impose restrictions and to encourage trust in what we tell him about his driving skills going downhill fast. He agrees! In response to his agreement, he says he only intends to drive locally, maybe no more than 5 miles one way ever. In other words, he justifies being unsafe but says he is not going to be driving where even unsafe drivers will be at risk to him or because of him. > I'm not saying you shouldn't intervene in your uncle's case, just that > dementia is not the one-dimensional state of being that some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unwillingness to accept as valid direct observations that counter his > view of the disease. I think he really is a Republican. They seem to think they have all the answers we, of the unwashed masses, must need but can't figure out for ourselves. > Have you ridden with your uncle driving someplace recently? About a year ago. After that, we informed him that we no longer will be passengers. Disneyland has rides that we used lettered tickets to ride. The A ticket was for little kids or informational rides. The E ticket was for rides that adults cannot ride because of possible stroke or heart attack. Riding with my uncle was clearly an E Ticket! He went over the speed limit (well that kept him up with traffic) never looked in the lanes he would change into, rolled through stop signs (it IS California isn't it?), tailgated at speed on the freeway (just like all those other drivers) and paid little attention to driving, more like herding his car. > What's *your* opinion of how safely he is driving? Gee, now that I reviewed what I just wrote, probably on a par with most other California drivers. Just kidding. He is unable to respond to what other drivers do in any timely way. > Any degree of dementia is certainly reason to *closely* > monitor the driver's ability (and I think states ought to do yearly > tests at least of drivers over 65 to monitor for themselves). Good > luck. We are doing all we can. Hopefully, we will overcome his fears of being isolated because he will no longer drive. What it is coming down to is our ability to make him believe that it is HIS idea to stop driving, not ours or the States. After all, isn't that was a good salesman does to make a sale? Doug >> Doug, Dennis will almost certainly reply that your uncle will not >> remember your acting to take away his ability to drive. Dennis has a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > create huge problems that leave the caregivers on the outside unable to > provide real care and confidence to their family members with AZ. Words fail me. What are you going to do when he decides to go 'home' (where he lived 50 years ago)...tell him, sure off you go and let him try and drive? >> The truth is, if I had been manipulating and bullying my >> father as often suggested here (and especially by Dennis) in the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > being unsafe but says he is not going to be driving where even unsafe > drivers will be at risk to him or because of him. Great, so he'll only kill a local family. Wouldnt you rather it was one further away? >> I'm not saying you shouldn't intervene in your uncle's case, just that >> dementia is not the one-dimensional state of being that some [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > About a year ago. After that, we informed him that we no longer will be > passengers. Translation "but we dont give a f.ck who else he kills" > Disneyland has rides that we used lettered tickets to ride. The A ticket > was for little kids or informational rides. The E ticket was for rides [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > other California drivers. Just kidding. He is unable to respond to what > other drivers do in any timely way. The phrase 'For f.cks Sake' really does need to be spelled out in full here. >> Any degree of dementia is certainly reason to *closely* >> monitor the driver's ability (and I think states ought to do yearly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Doug How would you do that? You can't reason with an Az patent. Even if you could, he'll forget. If he wants to drive, you wont be able to persuade him not to, and even if you could, he'd forget. Suppose he agrees and you take the car away? Whats going to happen when an hour later he demands his car, would you give it back to him? Suppose he denies ever having made such an agreement? You are happy to let him kill someone to keep him quiet? I think you have lot to lean about Az, unfortunately. And possibly the US legal system if there is an accident and your words here come to light. SignatureTumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com I am sorry you feel the need to force others that you don't know, that you never will meet in real life, to conform solely to your directives. For me, I will continue to seek answers to questions as they develop. I tried using tactics you reference here, scaring the sh.t out of my uncle, reciting even the prosecution of the 87 year old man that did kill 10 people and injured another 17 in Santa Monica, California. Your entire argument rests on the inability of any AZ patient to remember. That argument is flawed. It begins with error because, among other reasons, I have pointed out HOW effectively my uncle does remember, how he DOES take steps to make sure he follows up on doctor's appointments, takes his medications (nine of them daily), how he knows how to call and does call to confirm appointments. I mentioned how he understood what is happening to him, that he has AZ, that he needs medications to mollify its effects on him and that he knows it is necessary for others to aid him. Where in all of what I already discussed is found any evidence of a complete lack of memory or cognitive skills? I discussed stubbornness, an unwillingness to voluntarily stop doing what he said he knows how to do since 15 years old. He defended his actions! Defending actions known to be wrong (he knows his license is revoked) requires skill in manipulating the facts and logic in the nature of avoiding the cops so he doesn't get arrested. These are not the steps of a stage three AZ patient. You mention causing death as the extreme result of his driving. Yet, except for his discussion with us that he will travel only 5 miles locally, where is this risk of killing anyone? If the risk is as great as you make it appear, then why are three policing agencies so unwilling to take any pro-active steps of their own. It remains true that the DMV revoked his license, you know by letter, to be read, understood, acted upon by what you claim is a person unable to reason or remember. Is that logical? Should the DMV merely write letters only to revoke driver's licenses, and send those letters to people you claim are unable to comprehend what is said in them? I have NO exposure to civil actions for the driving habits of relatives that don't live with me, in the same city as me, or that otherwise chose to break laws because they are incompetent. Trying to scare me with warnings of risk to me ruins your credibility altogether. Trying to make me feel guilt over events that never happened and likely will never happen is silly. As far as what I do understand about AZ, it is probably less that I will come to understand in the next few weeks, but I believe I have a pretty good grasp of it based on what is happening to my MIL and uncle recently. I am still a kid here, 62 year old kid, with a fair amount of life experiences. Doug >>> Doug, Dennis will almost certainly reply that your uncle will not >>> remember your acting to take away his ability to drive. Dennis [quoted text clipped - 137 lines] > the US legal system if there is an accident and your words here come > to light. Doug, You write very clearly about your Uncle's retained ability to reason. But you also write that he is unable to react in a timely manner to other driver's actions. So he may be able to argue in the present and even project into the future, but not have any grasp on the near past. It seems your uncle's disease is either not progressing along the typical path of AD, or is another form of dementia, which affects the brain in different sequence. My Father in Law had Frontal Lobe dementia and insisted on continuing his independence by driving. He would also become violent if you tried to stop him. The violent streak was from the dementia. My MIL was never able to get him to stop driving, until the doctor put him into a nursing home. And in the interim, my husband would not act because his mom asked him not to make waves so she wouldn't have to deal with his anger (and my husband would never contradict a parent, even when he knew they were wrong). Except for losing his keys and not remembering where he was parked, my father in law continued to appear as a competent driver - he stayed in lane, signalled turns, drove a reasonable speed, remembered what lane he needed to be in and when.... In reality, he was a lucky driver. He was never presented with one of those situations where one needs to react fast and safely. He would have been totally unable to do so. And the result would have been tragic. Your uncle's ability to reason or out-stubborn the rest of the family doesn't change that he is a potential menace on the road. You ask, what can occur in just five miles? What is the density of that five miles? Each person and car in that density is a potential 'point' for an accident if your Uncle doesn't react in a timely way to their actions. Most car accidents happen in fairly close proximity to one's home. My friend died on a rain slicked road when he lost traction while on the way to the store to get milk. He was less than a mile from home. He was perfectly healthy. Someone with compromised reactions would be even more likely to get into an accident. While you, as a nephew, might not have the leverage to get your Uncle to stop driving, I ask you to reconsider the seriousness of the fact that he does drive and its potential for danger. The guy who hit people at an outdoor market this last Summer - how far was he from his home? Please, don't discount it or treat it blithely. Yes, my family took chances and were lucky. How lucky does your family feel? A family meeting about how to move your uncle towards not driving would be helpful. Some of the things you can use to appeal to him are: Without a license, he is automatically wrong in an accident. If sued, he could lose everything he has ever worked hard for. Is he insured? Or has the insurance company cancelled his policy because he lost his license? Would he risk everything to drive uninsured? [Can a major engine fuse be tampered with to keep the car from turning on? Those are a bitch to find and figure out.] As for the gov't's actions - one small possibility is: The DMV is the agency which deals with whether a person may drive and under what conditions. And just as there is no provision in their powers to notify police or other agencies when one is *granted* a license (Hey, local police depts - the following people just earned their licenses...), those same notice provisions probably apply to when a license is revoked. There is no reasonable way for the DMV to notify all the potential law enforcement agencies about someone not being able to drive, and then have those agnecies act on the info. Without pulling everyone over, how do you determine whether each driver is licensed? Not every licensed driver is in a car registered to them.). A license to drive is considered a priviledge, not a right, and therefore does not require the same level of notice and action on the part of a state gov't as when a right would be taken away, such as when the right to vote is revoked for persons convicted of a felony. Just as we, personally, and through family members, make sure that underage drivers are not on the road, so is the responsibility to keep unlicensed or incompetent older drivers off the road a familial duty. We personally failed in that regard but were lucky. Again - How lucky does your family feel? Adelle > I am sorry you feel the need to force others that you don't know, that you > never will meet in real life, to conform solely to your directives. [quoted text clipped - 189 lines] > > the US legal system if there is an accident and your words here come > > to light. > Doug, > > You write very clearly about your Uncle's retained ability to reason. > But you also write that he is unable to react in a timely manner to > other driver's actions. So he may be able to argue in the present and > even project into the future, but not have any grasp on the near past. I also wrote about his liver cancer, its medication that tells him not to drive when using it. He is, after all, no spring chicken and weakened by illness and age. He does argue in the present, and does understand the future but can also give perfect directions to get to any place in Orange County, California. When he is our passenger, he DOES give directions like every good back seat driver ever could. Lots and lots and lots of directions! He beats me every time we do cross-word puzzles together. He does those every day from the newspapers. > It seems your uncle's disease is either not progressing along the > typical path of AD, or is another form of dementia, which affects the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > husband would never contradict a parent, even when he knew they were > wrong). I will explore what you offered as a better explanation ASAP. Thanks for this. > Except for losing his keys and not remembering where he was parked, my > father in law continued to appear as a competent driver - he stayed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > needs to react fast and safely. He would have been totally unable to > do so. And the result would have been tragic. He did better than Uncle Bud is doing now. One thing I learned about AD patient's driving is to watch them slow down way before normal drivers slow down for stop signs or to turn. Seems they know about some limitations and act as best they can to compensate for these shortcomings. > Your uncle's ability to reason or out-stubborn the rest of the family > doesn't change that he is a potential menace on the road. You ask, > what can occur in just five miles? What is the density of that five > miles? Each person and car in that density is a potential 'point' for > an accident if your Uncle doesn't react in a timely way to their > actions. I am fully aware of what you discuss. I am also aware that his stores and doctors are mostly only a few blocks from his home and that he does drive slowly with great concern for being noticed. I don't justify anything he does while driving. I just am not in a position to force him to stop yet. > Most car accidents happen in fairly close proximity to one's home. My > friend died on a rain slicked road when he lost traction while on the > way to the store to get milk. He was less than a mile from home. He > was perfectly healthy. Someone with compromised reactions would be > even more likely to get into an accident. I am sorry about your friend. The reason most accidents may occur near home is because....we are always traveling near home to go on a trip or returning from one. That is the one constant in our driving practices, that we come and go near home everytime we get into our cars. > While you, as a nephew, might not have the leverage to get your Uncle > to stop driving, I ask you to reconsider the seriousness of the fact > that he does drive and its potential for danger. Of course. That concern is what brought me to this newsgroup, right? > The guy who hit > people at an outdoor market this last Summer - how far was he from > his home? Please, don't discount it or treat it blithely. Yes, my > family took chances and were lucky. How lucky does your family feel? Not so lucky at all. I feel I am doing as much as I can considering the limitations imposed on me. But I am making progress, some coming from help offered here. > A family meeting about how to move your uncle towards not driving > would be helpful. Some of the things you can use to appeal to him [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > major engine fuse be tampered with to keep the car from turning on? > Those are a bitch to find and figure out.] The idea of disabling the car at the fuse box (fuel relay with a note stuck in its place is on the table) but we first have to be INSIDE the car to access the fuses and relays. > As for the gov't's actions - one small possibility is: The DMV is the > agency which deals with whether a person may drive and under what [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pulling everyone over, how do you determine whether each driver is > licensed? I notified them of a driver with a revoked license. They ARE on notice. Nobody at any policing agency cares enough to take pro-active action, and show up and ask why the license was not returned. > Not every licensed driver is in a car registered to them.). That cuts both ways. His car can be driven by a licensed friend if need be. > A license to drive is considered a priviledge, not a right, and > therefore does not require the same level of notice and action on the > part of a state gov't as when a right would be taken away, such as > when the right to vote is revoked for persons convicted of a felony. He knows and understands that. He relies on having the physical possession of the license. Take that away by a policeman and he likely would stop driving. > Just as we, personally, and through family members, make sure that > underage drivers are not on the road, so is the responsibility to > keep unlicensed or incompetent older drivers off the road a familial > duty. Doing my best. > We personally failed in that regard but were lucky. Again - How lucky > does your family feel? Not lucky thus here is where you find me asking about methods that worked for others in similar situations. Thanks again. Doug > Adelle > [quoted text clipped - 197 lines] >>> the US legal system if there is an accident and your words here come >>> to light. >> [Can a > > major engine fuse be tampered with to keep the car from turning on? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in its place is on the table) but we first have to be INSIDE the car to > access the fuses and relays. Those fuses are under the hood of my car, not in the passenger compartment. Yeah, you need to get into the car to release the hood lock. Any chance Uncle Bud would accept an offer from a family member to do an oil change and check the fluid levels, and then have that person disable a fuse, too? > Doing my best. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Doug Wishing you luck! Adelle Forgive me if I jump in late to this discussion. Mom didn't fit the Alzheimers profile. She most certainly had dementia. I kept repeating the "Alzheimers test" that I had read somewhere: If you lose your keys, it is not Alz. If you forget what keys do, it is Alz. It is not Alz. if you forget where you parked your car at the mall. It is Alz. if you forget you came to the mall in a car. Mom knew what keys were. She knew how to unlock the door. She could pick her car out from others in the parking lot. A part of me wanted to believe she didn't have Alz. But she couldn't balance her checkbook, couldn't remember the steps to getting ready for bed or even to dress herself. Once she "dressed herself." She had on two blouses, bra inside out, panties and no pants. No one could say she didn't have some form of dementia. From what I learned, there are 49 different kinds of dementia of which Alz. is just one. I heard it said here, if you have met one person with Alz. then you have met one person with Alz. Everyone is different, so I agree that it isn't black and white what will happen next. I was always told Mom would forget who I was. She never did. We just buried her two weeks ago. Mom still had much of her senses intact when she left one morning to drive to my aunt's to eat lunch with her. Probably within that 5 mile limit you refer to. Eleven hours later someone called us from her cell phone to tell us she was in another state about 4 hours away. She missed a turn and wound up driving all day. She would probably still be driving if it had not been for the fact she burned the clutch totally out of the car. She had enough sense to stop the car, gas up and get directions at one point. She forgot until someone reminded her that she had a cell phone and my phone number written down. The doctor told me to lie to her and tell her the car was beyond repair. I never lied to my Mom and told the doctor I didn't plan to start. I told her she scared me. I told her that what happened might or might not ever happen again, but if it did it could be worse the next time. I promised her that if she would give up driving, I would take her anywhere she wanted to go anytime she wanted to go. She agreed to stop driving and signed the car over to me. I wish you luck in stopping your uncle. Please leave the politics out of this. You won't agree with everything that is said here. I didn't either. But everyone here is here for your support. From what you said, you are the only family your uncle has to step in on his behalf. He may understand some things you do for him, then again he may not. In the latter stages of Mom's dementia, she didn't always appreciate my efforts either. But as his only family member who can help him, do this even if it borders on getting him mad at you. Please. -- Sparky > Forgive me if I jump in late to this discussion. Welcome to my delimma. (and please forgive my spelling) ;) > Mom didn't fit the > Alzheimers profile. She most certainly had dementia. I kept repeating [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "dressed herself." She had on two blouses, bra inside out, panties > and no pants. No one could say she didn't have some form of dementia. Yes, I recognize some of those traits in my mother in law, who suffered two comas brought about by her AZ as we learned from her doctor. > From what I learned, there are 49 different kinds of dementia of which > Alz. is just one. I heard it said here, if you have met one person > with Alz. then you have met one person with Alz. Everyone is > different, so I agree that it isn't black and white what will happen > next. I was always told Mom would forget who I was. She never did. We > just buried her two weeks ago. I agree. We can't jump to conclusions too quickly and ruin trusts. I certainly am unwilling to make drastic steps that might be avoidable with better information obtained in a timely way. > Mom still had much of her senses intact when she left one morning to > drive to my aunt's to eat lunch with her. Probably within that 5 mile [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and get directions at one point. She forgot until someone reminded > her that she had a cell phone and my phone number written down. In fact, this reminds me to get my uncle a cell phone, at least one easy to operate, like maybe this Mobile911 service that has one primary button to call 911. > The doctor told me to lie to her and tell her the car was beyond > repair. I never lied to my Mom and told the doctor I didn't plan to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > take her anywhere she wanted to go anytime she wanted to go. She > agreed to stop driving and signed the car over to me. You and I are in full agreement, at least for the stage of my uncle's current condition. No lying. > I wish you luck in stopping your uncle. Please leave the politics out > of this. You won't agree with everything that is said here. I didn't > either. But everyone here is here for your support. Not everyone, I am sorry to see. Some have personal agendas, as exist in other newsgroups, where being right (whether right or not) overrides being considerate it seems. So far, I have continued to learn about possibilities I had not yet considered. > From what you > said, you are the only family your uncle has to step in on his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > help him, do this even if it borders on getting him mad at you. > Please. I am doing my best. I expect in time I will need to take charge, likely as a caretaker. Doug > While you, as a nephew, might not have the leverage to get your Uncle to > stop driving, I ask you to reconsider the seriousness of the fact that he > does drive and its potential for danger. The guy who hit people at an > outdoor market this last Summer - how far was he from his home? Please, > don't discount it or treat it blithely. Yes, my family took chances and were > lucky. How lucky does your family feel? Doug knows it all, and obviously doesn't want to hear any opinions that disagree with his preconceived notions about his uncle's competetence, no matter what those who have already been through this experience think. He asked for advice, but when it doesn't agree with what he wants to hear, he doesn't accept it. As we often say here, denial is not a river in Egypt. He obviously doesn't have a clue as to his personal liability if the family of the folks his uncles kills *within five miles of his house* find out that he was aware of his uncle's illegal driving and did nothing to stop him. He may think he's not liable, but he's probably never been sued by a good personal injury attorney. I wish him luck, because none of this is easy. And you're right, it may well not be AD, but Lewy Body or some other dementia. *Plonk* >> While you, as a nephew, might not have the leverage to get your >> Uncle to stop driving, I ask you to reconsider the seriousness of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I wish him luck, because none of this is easy. And you're right, > it may well not be AD, but Lewy Body or some other dementia. >Doug knows it all, and obviously doesn't want to hear any >opinions that disagree with his preconceived notions about his >uncle's competetence, no matter what those who have already been >through this experience think. He asked for advice, but when it >doesn't agree with what he wants to hear, he doesn't accept it. >As we often say here, denial is not a river in Egypt. I think you're being unfair. I read it as Doug listening to what's being said by others but that he is making a decision based on the information at hand judging the best action. We should not expect to agree in all matters. Only Doug has the responsibility to make the decision; no other competent person - without a stake in the matter is in a position to decide. I certainly would be hesitant to be so assertive about what action somebody, possibly thousands of miles away, should take. >He obviously doesn't have a clue as to his personal liability if >the family of the folks his uncles kills *within five miles of >his house* find out that he was aware of his uncle's illegal >driving and did nothing to stop him. He may think he's not >liable, but he's probably never been sued by a good personal >injury attorney. I would hazard a guess (admittedly not being familiar with US law) that Doug would not be legally liable for the actions of his father should he continue to drive without a license - especially if the police are unwilling to take action. As you say, it's not easy to make such decisions. The nature of usenet is such that we often, or at least, I do, regret writing what, with hindsight, was unfortunately insensitive. Good luck to you all - both with your decisions and the outcomes thereof. - Mod as a hooter! > I certainly would be hesitant to be so assertive about what action somebody, > possibly thousands of miles away, should take. getting an impaired driver off the road, even if it angers him, is what's important. he doesn't seem to think so, or if he does, is not willing to make the effort to do so. this man could kill someone tomorrow on his way to the supermarket. all it takes is for some impulsive child to dart out from between parked cars on a quiet "safe" street when he's driving by. it may never happen, but it could happen at any time. the unpredictability of this disease is what makes drivers impaired by it so dangerous. sorry if i see this as a black and white issue, but i feel the same way about drunk drivers, and i will do anything i can to get them arrested and off the road. >> I certainly would be hesitant to be so assertive about what action >> somebody, possibly thousands of miles away, should take. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > same way about drunk drivers, and i will do anything i can to get > them arrested and off the road. So you actually sit outside of bars and call the police when the patrons head home? Bah! That remark saddens me... Speak with the victims of a drunk driver and see how they feel, weep with them at their loss, explain to them that "sh*t happens"... donnah >>> I certainly would be hesitant to be so assertive about what action >>> somebody, possibly thousands of miles away, should take. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Bah! > That remark saddens me... > Speak with the victims of a drunk driver and see how they feel, weep > with them at their loss, explain to them that "sh*t happens"... > donnah Well like you said, sh*t happens. No one here, anywhere, can ride herd over the choices everyone in the world makes daily. You are sad because consequenses arise from the choices people make. Must be sad all the time for you. Biblically, Adam failed to have a wife that cared enough about his well being to keep him from that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and look at the mess we are in today! Saadam's mother failed to help little Sadaam understand that someday he might need someone to look after him when he was grown up and old. At least Sadaam is not going to be driving anywhere when, or if, he lives long enough to come down with Alzheimer's. Heaven forbid that we ever see any kind of accident ever again on the roads of the USA. But tires come apart and cars role over, people go to sleep behind the wheel, some even talk on their cell phones, others get into fights with their passengers, some have let their brakes get worn down too much, others drive while taking medications needed to live, some get night blindness, others get blinded by the sun, fog settles in and rain makes the roads slippery. Are you sad that these things cause deaths too? Wouldn't it be better if we outlawed all driving where any possible unsafe condition made driving hazardous? We are NOT the world's police. We are trying to learn how to best deal with the AZ of our relatives and friends. I don't have God's ability to revoke our free will, whether you or anyone else is too ill to know it exists or not. The best I can do is to attempt to use effective means to make my uncle's life better and safer. Doug >>>> I certainly would be hesitant to be so assertive about what action >>>> somebody, possibly thousands of miles away, should take. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Bah! no, it's not sad for me all the time... just like you and everyone else, I'm doing the best I can at any given moment. sorry you felt the need to over react , but it's a free country, isn't it? donnah >> That remark saddens me... >> Speak with the victims of a drunk driver and see how they feel, [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >>> >>> Bah! > You are sad because consequenses arise from the choices people make. and one of the consequences of driving drunk should be a long jail sentence, followed by a long license revocation. >> You are sad because consequenses arise from the choices people make. > > and one of the consequences of driving drunk should be a long > jail sentence, followed by a long license revocation. I agree. Doug > So you actually sit outside of bars and call the police when the patrons > head home? i live on the edge of a downtown area where there are quite a few bars, and sometimes i bicycle or walk through the area in the evenings. if i see someone who is obviously too impaired to drive get into the driver's seat of a vehicle, i will most certainly use my cell phone to call the police, and have done so several times in the past year. when i didn't have one, i would either find a beat cop in the area or go to a pay phone. i also call the cops and report drivers who wander all over the road, drive at speeds over 80 mph, or are heading the wrong way on a divided highway. i don't care if they kill themselves, i just don't want them taking anyone else with them, and i want them off the road. >> So you actually sit outside of bars and call the police when the >> patrons head home? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > just don't want them taking anyone else with them, and i want > them off the road. Hey stand watch inside the bars, count the drinks of the patrons, rat them all out to the coppers. Or maybe spend some time serving the homeless. I am not part of a police state where neighbors are hell bent on running anyone they feel like ratting out to the cops. We live in different worlds it seems. Doug > Hey stand watch inside the bars, count the drinks of the patrons, rat them > all out to the coppers. no, i don't do that. but when someone who can barely walk gets behind the wheel of a vehicle, i'm damned sure NOT going to let them drive if i can help it. i've had too many friends KILLED by drunk drivers. drunk driving is assault with a deadly weapon, dammit. > Or maybe spend some time serving the homeless. i do that, too. what does it have to do with reporting drunk drivers? > I am not part of a police state where neighbors are hell bent on running > anyone they feel like ratting out to the cops. THEY ARE COMMITTING A CRIME. get that through your alcohol-besotted head. i want to keep unsafe drivers off the road. driving is a privelege, not a right, and impaired drivers should not be so privileged. you, of course, would let an impaired, unlicensed driver stay on the road because you're afraid to make him angry. i'll take the anger anytime if it means he can no longer endanger others. >> Hey stand watch inside the bars, count the drinks of the patrons, >> rat them all out to the coppers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > drunk drivers. drunk driving is assault with a deadly weapon, > dammit. Sorry your friends keep getting themselves killed off only by drunk drivers. Driving drunk is a bad thing but you and I are unable to control what others do. Are you next going to tell me how to form vigilante gangs? >> Or maybe spend some time serving the homeless. >> > i do that, too. what does it have to do with reporting drunk > drivers? Of course you do. How silly of me to suggest it. >> I am not part of a police state where neighbors are hell bent on >> running anyone they feel like ratting out to the cops. > > THEY ARE COMMITTING A CRIME. get that through your > alcohol-besotted head. Poor baby! You have delusions that I drink alcohol? Are there any other delusions you suffer from lately? > i want to keep unsafe drivers off the road. driving is a > privelege, not a right, and impaired drivers should not be so > privileged. I agree. > you, of course, would let an impaired, unlicensed driver stay on > the road because you're afraid to make him angry. i'll take the > anger anytime if it means he can no longer endanger others. So you do have other delusions after all? Where have I said or even inferred that I would "let an impaired, unlicensed driver stay on the road because I was afraid to make him angry?" You're making stuff up from your delusions again. Do you have anyone to talk to about these numerous delusions of yours about other people? Doug Doug & Dennis: This dog is dead. Please bury it. Gwen > >> Hey stand watch inside the bars, count the drinks of the patrons, > >> rat them all out to the coppers. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Doug > Doug & Dennis: This dog is dead. Please bury it. > Gwen amen! SignatureRegards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox") >> >> Hey stand watch inside the bars, count the drinks of the patrons, >> >> rat them all out to the coppers. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >> >> Doug Take it outside, boys. Ruth >> Doug & Dennis: This dog is dead. Please bury it. >> Gwen [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >>> >>> Doug good for you, Dennis! I don't seek out these drivers, but like you I will take action when necessary. There was an ad campaign several years ago, and I'm sorry I don't recall all of it. But it was something to the effect that if they have a problem, lets help with it--but lets get them off the road *first*. donnah >> So you actually sit outside of bars and call the police when the >> patrons [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > just don't want them taking anyone else with them, and i want > them off the road. <snip> >> Have you ridden with your uncle driving someplace recently? > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >ability to make him believe that it is HIS idea to stop driving, not ours or >the States. After all, isn't that was a good salesman does to make a sale? Doug, you'd better work harder at selling him on the idea. People with AD can lose the ability to respond safely and quickly to a road emergency long before they've lost everything else. I know - I watched my wife start to make illogical (and potentially dangerous) moves while driving when she was still in the early stages of AD. In her case, I just 'forgot' to renew her license, and she accepted that she shouldn't drive without it. (I also took the Crooklock key off her keyring.) This isn't just a matter of preserving your father's dignity. Think what it'd do to him (and you) if he accidentally ran down a pedestrian because he couldn't think quickly enough. . . Doug, Maybe you ought to think of your uncle being a vegetable or paralyzed for life should he get in an accident!!!!! > Doug, > Maybe you ought to think of your uncle being a vegetable or > paralyzed for life should he get in an accident!!!!! Not such a nice thought before hitting the hay for a nice night of nightmares is it? No Doug it's not a nice thought.I realize your in no position right now to change things but i just wanted you to think of what the consequenses could be should he have an accident.If you don't care about others then at least care about him.Barb > No Doug it's not a nice thought.I realize your in no position right > now to change things but i just wanted you to think of what the > consequenses could be should he have an accident.If you don't care > about others then at least care about him.Barb Barb, Do you have any idea how insulting your message is? Do you have any idea about the horrors I have been going through because of his decisions not to loan his car to us, not to return his license, not to agree to let us haul his butt everywhere and anytime he wants us to do just that? Are you sure you pain one iota of attention to all the efforts we have been taking to make his life easy enough to live comfortably with what we first refused to believe he is dealing with? Haven't you paid any damned attention to the efforts I made to get any of three policing agencies to take his license, to render his car inoperable, to have someone appear at his doorstep to get his license out of his possession, to visit with his doctors so they can tell him how dangerous his |
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