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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / November 2004

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Nightwing - 16 Nov 2004 02:47 GMT
I have seen many reports recently about implantable id/tracking chips being
available soon for use in humans.  Would you consider it for your loved one?
Gwen Love - 16 Nov 2004 02:46 GMT
Nightwing, I would not have needed it since Grayson had two light strokes
and was almost unable to walk.  He wasn't going anywhere!
Gwen

> I have seen many reports recently about implantable id/tracking chips being
> available soon for use in humans.  Would you consider it for your loved one?
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Nov 2004 03:06 GMT
>I have seen many reports recently about implantable id/tracking chips being
>available soon for use in humans.  Would you consider it for your loved
>one?

Hmmmm.... a lot to think about.  At first thought it seemed a bit too "big
brother-ish" for me.   But then again you think of children who have been
lost etc.   Maybe the benefits are worth it, not really quite sure.

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Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

Robert E. Lewis - 16 Nov 2004 05:31 GMT
> I have seen many reports recently about implantable id/tracking chips being
> available soon for use in humans.  Would you consider it for your loved one?

They're available now for pets, of course.  I don't know why 'implantable'
would be essential for very many human beings -- except for children (and in
the rare cases where a child is abducted, I shudder at the thought of
abductor searching for and cutting an implant out). Something that could be
easily tucked/pinned inside a person's clothes and tracked might give some
peace of mind to a lot of caregivers for dementia patients.

I'm periodically asked to participate in online surveys for a major polling
agency, and was recently asked some questions about various elder alert-type
systems, including some questions that suggested there was a company
considering marketing a hang-around-the-neck transmitter with some sort of
GPS tracking in it.

A report at the end of Anderson Cooper 360 on CNN today talked about
low-cost radio tracking ID chips becoming so inexpensive they'd soon be on
every prescription bottle, possibly on every pill.  The best use the host
could come up with was making the orphaned sock a thing of the past.

Signature

Robert
(Father home from the hospital tonight, with both feet and all his toes.)

Tumbleweed - 16 Nov 2004 07:23 GMT
>I have seen many reports recently about implantable id/tracking chips being
>available soon for use in humans.  Would you consider it for your loved
>one?

I think you may be confusing several things.

RFID or small ID chips can be used to identify whatever they are attached
to. They ar small and can be implanted. They are used for pets for instance.
However, they have a range of a few feet at most, so they can only be used
to identify someone you have found / are with. I would suggest that a
medical ID bracelet would do for this.

There has been talk of GPS devices which can be used to locate lost people
from long distances. Such devices are quite large (lets say, at least the
size of a packet of cigarettes) and use quite a lot of electricity, so you
would need to replace the batteries frequently. They would have to be
attached to clothing or externally, and certainly couldnt be implanted,
because of size and the need to replace batteries.

I would also suggest that if your LO is in a position where they frequently
wander off and thus you are considering such a device, you are trying to
solving the wrong problem. They are in danger from their wandering and you
need to change arrangements so they cannot wander, rather than try and make
it easier for you to track them after the event.

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Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Mary Gordon - 16 Nov 2004 12:55 GMT
It would be helpful if the chip had sufficient range. There was a
death last week in Toronto of a middle aged man with severe autism who
managed to wander away from the special facility he lived in. He had
the mental capacity of a three year old and was non-verbal - they had
thousands of people out searching for him. Ultimately he was found,
dead, hidden in the muddy water of a creek that was quite close to the
home. His family went through absolute hell for more than a week while
the search was on. Some kind of homing device wouldn't have changed
the outcome - they think he died very shortly after he went missing -
but it would have made a difference to his loved ones.

If I had a wanderer and there was good technology available, I
wouldn't hesitate. No matter how careful or layered the security
efforts, people can and do slip out - and if Toronto is any sample -
wow, many dreadful stories every year of mobile people with impaired
mental capacity getting lost, them suffering and even dying, and their
families going through hell until they are found.

On the other hand, I'm so fed up with the sieve-like security I see
everywhere, plus the line ups, the stacks of paperwork, the ID we have
to lug, the inconvenience etc. I'm in that minority that says bring on
the DNA scanners, the iris and fingerprint scanners. I am who I say I
am, and I don't care who knows it, so if a chip would let me sail
through the security line ups at the border, the airport etc. imbed
one in me tomorrow.

Mary G.
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Nov 2004 14:31 GMT
> It would be helpful if the chip had sufficient range. There was a
> death last week in Toronto of a middle aged man with severe autism who
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Mary G.

As they always say, "those with nothing to hide, hide nothing" and in that
spirit, I would also go along with the chip.   I am just against having it
done without permission, or to everybody indiscriminately.   As long as it
is done for a reason, and with the permission of someone responsible.
Signature

Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

Tumbleweed - 16 Nov 2004 14:51 GMT
> It would be helpful if the chip had sufficient range. There was a
> death last week in Toronto of a middle aged man with severe autism who
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the outcome - they think he died very shortly after he went missing -
> but it would have made a difference to his loved ones.

I doubt it since chances are such a device wouldnt work underwater. Either
because it wouldnt be sufficiently waterproof or because you cant receive a
GPS signal underwater/under tree cover, and you cant transmit under water. I
suppose you could strap one of those things they use for yachts to such a
person but they are about a foot in diameter and weigh several pounds.

I'd be more worried about a facility that couldnt prevent a 3 year old
wandering off. WOuld you accet that from your pre-school "oh its OK Mrs
Gordon, hardly any of our pre-schoolers wander off for more thana few hours
each day"
We mostly are able to prevent people who would dearly like to, breaking out
of prison, spending hugely to do it, but wont spend 1% of that on innocent's
safety. Thats the issue, not implanted chips.

> If I had a wanderer and there was good technology available, I
> wouldn't hesitate. No matter how careful or layered the security
> efforts, people can and do slip out - and if Toronto is any sample -
> wow, many dreadful stories every year of mobile people with impaired
> mental capacity getting lost, them suffering and even dying, and their
> families going through hell until they are found.

Consider the downside which is that people would inevitably slacken off on
security since they would consider they had 'backup' available. Either
consciously (dont need so many people now since we can always find our
residents quickly), or unconsciously ("risk compensation").
Then consider the additional people that would go missing and wouldnt be
found because the batteries were flat/the person was in a location where GPS
didnt work (indoors, under trees, etc), or the person took it off. In the
latter case, FWIW, and quite commonly, my father was (is?) paranoid about
any electrical devices and would unplug / disconnect / switch off any
functioning electronic device. Good luck to anyone trying to attach such a
thing to him :-)

This is a (IMHO bad) technology problem to a people/resource issue. I would
not be at all pacified to be able to know quickly that my dad had been run
over because the GPS device had been sufficiently hardened to survive the
accident and report back. I'd rather the facility he was in spent every
spare cent on preventative measures rather than telling me swiftly which
creek he drowned in.

> On the other hand, I'm so fed up with the sieve-like security I see
> everywhere, plus the line ups, the stacks of paperwork, the ID we have
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Mary G.

It would also let the terrorist/criminal sail through as well. Either on
their own ID, or with false/forged (not the same) ID. Giving you a nice but
entirely false sense of security. Perhaps thats why you are in the minority.
"yes Mr Atta, this chip and iris scan confirms you are indeed Mr Atta so
please board the plane."

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Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Mary Gordon - 17 Nov 2004 00:12 GMT
I absolutely agree that the home shouldn't have let him escape - and I
would never suggest that safety ever be dependent on a single method.

Any good security system to keep wanderers safe needs to have layers
of "barriers", so if one fails, the next layer is there to catch them.
For example, you might have attendants who do frequent head counts,
keypads on interior elevators, a security person in the lobby watching
the door, a wanderguard that sets off an alarm if the person gets out,
etc. etc. When someone gets lost from an institution, it usually means
there have been a cascade of multiple failures (i.e. the attendant was
distracted by a fight, a guest let the person onto the elevator, the
lobby guard was having coffee, the wanderguard alarm was on the fritz
due to electrical maintenance etc.)

Even with the multiple layers of protection, it happens quite often
that wanderers get out - and certainly from private homes, its more
common than from institutions...and then time is of the essence to
locate them before something bad happens. A tracking device could only
act as the final failsafe when everything else has tanked.

And I agree the technology isn't there yet to really let you put a
chip in someone and let you track them over a distance. However, if
such a thing existed, I wouldn't hesitate to let them "tag" a loved
one who was in danger of wandering. On the AD ward (which had keypads
on the ward doors, headcounts, lobby guards, and alarms on exterior
doors), my MIL wore a bulky wanderguard that she couldn't remove on
one wrist for a couple of years until the disease took her ability to
walk. It was not the most comfortable or attractive thing, and if
she'd gotten out the door, it wouldn't have helped us to figure out
where she'd gone.

Mary G.
Tumbleweed - 17 Nov 2004 01:35 GMT
<snip>

> And I agree the technology isn't there yet to really let you put a
> chip in someone and let you track them over a distance. However, if
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Mary G.

mary, do you know what that was, what technology it used?

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Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Camille - 16 Nov 2004 12:55 GMT
My dog is microchipped but the chip must be scanned to get his information.
It can't be used for tracking.

I don't think I would use one for my mother.  She's not a wanderer but if
she were I think I would go some other route to fix it.

Camille

>I have seen many reports recently about implantable id/tracking chips being
>available soon for use in humans.  Would you consider it for your loved
>one?
 
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