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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / September 2004

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Nightwing - 09 Sep 2004 05:12 GMT
...the government owes us free drugs?

I would prefer that the government stay as much out of my life, and wallet
as possible.
Dennis White - 09 Sep 2004 06:30 GMT
> ...the government owes us free drugs?
>
> I would prefer that the government stay as much out of my life, and wallet
> as possible.

I agree.  But I also mistrust big business as much as the government! I
realize the high cost of research, and the costs of bringing new drugs to
market, but I also know that the cost of pharmaceuticals are driven by
whatever the market will bear.  I wish I knew the answer to the dilemna many
face.  The wealthy can afford the drugs, and the poor are usually covered by
Medicaid.  Those in the middle bear the brunt of it. Again, I wish I knew
the answer.

Dennis
Dennis P. Harris - 09 Sep 2004 06:31 GMT
> the government owes us free drugs?

my point was that repugnicans tout is as a "benefit" when it's
clearly not a benefit to anyone except their corporate friends.

and expect to get re-elected because of it.
Gwen Love - 09 Sep 2004 18:40 GMT
I should stay out of this, but beg to differ in that my card has been a
benefit to me on several of the drugs I take.  The cost has gone down
considerably.  And when you have 14 prescriptions, even a little less on
several would make a big difference.
Gwen

> > the government owes us free drugs?
>
> my point was that repugnicans tout is as a "benefit" when it's
> clearly not a benefit to anyone except their corporate friends.
>
> and expect to get re-elected because of it.
Dennis P. Harris - 10 Sep 2004 02:54 GMT
> I should stay out of this, but beg to differ in that my card has been a
> benefit to me on several of the drugs I take.  The cost has gone down
> considerably.  And when you have 14 prescriptions, even a little less on
> several would make a big difference.

the major beneficiary of the bill that passed, however, were the
drug companies.  the bill protected their predatory pricing and
guaranteed that medicare would pay the highest possible price, by
forbidding H&SS from negotiating with drug companies for bulk
prices for medicare patients.

it was a pharmaeceutical industry law, not a consumer-friendly
law.  yet another reason to throw about 70% of the congress out
of office in november.
Nightwing - 09 Sep 2004 20:04 GMT
Dennis you might be a bit more convincing if you would drop the name
calling.  BTW AARP did endorse the plan.

>> the government owes us free drugs?
>
> my point was that repugnicans tout is as a "benefit" when it's
> clearly not a benefit to anyone except their corporate friends.
>
> and expect to get re-elected because of it.
augustwestern - 10 Sep 2004 19:35 GMT
BTW AARP did endorse the plan.

Yes they did, And I promptly canceled my AARP membership because they sold
us down the river. I agree with everything Dennis said. The big winner with
the new Medicare drug bill is the pharmaceutical industry which now will
receive fixed high and uncontrolled escalating prices. Medicare and Social
Security will be destroyed by this ill conceived law.

The Senator from Louisiana who wrote the Medicare drug bill has now retired
from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical
industry.
Nightwing - 10 Sep 2004 20:00 GMT
You miss my point.  The government should not be involved.  As for the
"evil" drug companies, what about the programs that they have to make sure
people can get needed medications free or at a discount if they can't afford
them?  You don't seem to hear about that much, but the programs do exist.
If the market place were allowed to function the price would be less, why
would a company price something too high to sell?

> BTW AARP did endorse the plan.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical
> industry.
Dennis White - 10 Sep 2004 22:18 GMT
> You miss my point.  The government should not be involved.  As for the
> "evil" drug companies, what about the programs that they have to make sure
> people can get needed medications free or at a discount if they can't afford
> them?  You don't seem to hear about that much, but the programs do exist.

I for one would like to hear more about these programs and what percentage
versus overall sales is given away.  I don't expect drug companies to be in
business for anything other than making money, but I think the argument
given here is a bit ingenuous.

> If the market place were allowed to function the price would be less, why
> would a company price something too high to sell?

    The price is, of course, never "too high to sell.".  the price is (in
the US and Europe at least) the price the consumer is *capable* of paying.
Pharmaceuticals are definately one commodity where prices favor as much as
the market will bear.  That is why the price of the same drugs sold in the
US are cheaper in Canada, for instance.  And even more clearly, where the
cost of drugs sold in the US are far more expensive than those sold in
Africa.  In both cases the lower costs and the profits deferred are passed
on to US consumers.  Pharmaceuticals, like many other goods, are not in a
"closed market".

Dennis

> > BTW AARP did endorse the plan.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical
> > industry.
Dennis White - 11 Sep 2004 02:03 GMT
snip.....

> I for one would like to hear more about these programs and what percentage
> versus overall sales is given away.  I don't expect drug companies to be in
> business for anything other than making money, but I think the argument
> given here is a bit ingenuous.

Ingenuous?  What?  Of course I meant to say *dis*ingenuous.  :-0
Dennis
kansasman - 12 Sep 2004 22:07 GMT
> > You miss my point.  The government should not be involved.  As for the
> > "evil" drug companies, what about the programs that they have to make sure
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> business for anything other than making money, but I think the argument
> given here is a bit ingenuous.

Well, while AARP supported more Medicare availability, it also
supported provisions that allow for more improvements to be made--
which means the Medicare Prescription bill is not the end-all-be-all.
It is just part of instigating a bigger solution.
Evelyn Ruut - 10 Sep 2004 20:04 GMT
> BTW AARP did endorse the plan.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical
> industry.

He always was their man......

Signature

Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

augustwestern - 15 Sep 2004 06:02 GMT
from the NY Times

A CONVERSATION WITH | MARCIA ANGELL
A Doctor Puts the Drug Industry Under a Microscope
By CLAUDIA DREIFUS

Published: September 14, 2004

ASHINGTON - In many ways, Dr. Marcia Angell is an unlikely muckraker. A
pathologist by training, she is the former editor in chief of The New
England Journal of Medicine. She is also a senior lecturer at Harvard
Medical School.

But just days short of her 65th birthday and her first Social Security
check, Dr. Angell is taking on the American pharmaceutical industry with a
new book, "The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What
to Do About It" (Random House)."I don't worry about labels," Dr. Angell said
in an interview at the Hotel Monaco, where she stopped during a book tour.

In a 1996 book, she noted, she argued "that there wasn't a shred of evidence
that the breast implants were causing all the disease they were said to."

"I was said to be a tool of the pharmaceutical and device companies," Dr.
Angell recalled. "I call them as I see them."

Q. Why produce an investigative book on the pharmaceutical industry?

A. Because everyone knows that prescription drug prices are sky-high.
Americans pay far more for our drugs than people in other countries. The
drug companies say, "We need high prices to cover our staggering research
and development costs, and if you do anything to squeeze our prices, it will
stifle innovation." The book was written to examine that argument.

Q. The pharmaceutical companies say their prices are steep because they
spend somewhere in the neighborhood of a billion dollars per drug bringing
them to market. Did your research support this assertion?

A. A group of economists - mainly funded by the drug companies - came up
with the widely quoted figure on this. They said that it cost $802 million
to bring a drug out. They, however, were looking at the most expensive drugs
to develop: new chemical compounds developed entirely in house. Most new
drugs aren't that at all. Most are what people call "me too" drugs, which
are slight variations of older drugs already being sold.

According to these economists, the real cost of bringing out those rare
original drugs is actually around $403 million. But they doubled it by
factoring in how much money the companies might have earned if they'd
invested that $403 million. Moreover, the economists did not figure into
their total the many generous tax breaks these companies receive for doing
research and development. This is a highly inflated figure.

The fact is that for the last two decades the drug companies have been
hugely profitable. Last year there was a little wiggle downward, but in
2002, the 10 biggest American drug companies had a median profit of 17
percent of sales compared to a median of 3 percent for the other Fortune 500
companies. In the 1990's, profits ran between 19 and 25 percent. Prices are
high to keep profits high.

Q. Exactly what are these "me too" drugs you argue against?

A. They are minor variations of old drugs already on the market. Sometimes a
company creates a "me too" drug as a way of extending a patent on an older
one. For example, AstraZeneca created Nexium to replace the virtually
identical Prilosec when its patent was about to expire. By putting out these
me-too's, the companies can get new exclusive marketing rights on what are
essentially the same old drugs.

Other companies come in with their own me-too's because markets are
expandable. It's been shown that when you advertise one me-too drug, you
increase the sales of all of them.

Q. Why do you have a problem with this?

A. The prevalence of the me-too's really says an awful lot about the lack of
innovation within the pharmaceutical industry. If you look at the new drugs
marketed over the last six years, 78 percent weren't even new chemical
compounds. They were just new combinations or different formulations of old
drugs. And 68 percent were classified by the F.D.A. as unlikely to be
improvements over drugs already on pharmacy shelves.

At the same time, there are shortages of some important drugs that the
pharmaceutical companies aren't much interested in making because they are
not as profitable as the me-too's. But the companies don't have to turn out
needed drugs, if they are not lucrative. And they don't.

Q. How much of the high cost of drugs is the result of marketing and sales
expenditures?

A. The companies spend over 30 percent of their revenues on marketing and
administration. Their marketing budgets are so enormous because they have to
persuade doctors and patients to prescribe one me-too drug over another. If
you had a truly innovative drug - a cure for cancer, for instance - you
wouldn't have to market it much. The world would beat a path to your door.

Q. Was there anything in your life that pushed you to write this book?

A. As a journal editor, I witnessed a disturbing trend in pharmaceutical
research. Twenty years ago, most drug trials were conducted at academic
medical centers and the pharmaceutical companies tended to stand back during
the testing period. However, in recent years, the companies have succeeded
in attaching strings to research contracts, often designing the studies
themselves, keeping the data in-house and deciding whether or not to publish
the results. They also began to contract with private research companies for
testing. Moreover, the medical schools and even individual researchers began
to enter into entrepreneurial arrangements with the drug companies.

While all this was occurring, I began to see bias creep into medical
research. And I saw a lot of it. The most obvious example were studies
comparing a new drug to a placebo. That may be enough to get a drug F.D.A.
approval, but it should not be enough for The New England Journal of
Medicine. Doctors don't want to know whether a drug is better than nothing.
They want to know if it's better than what they are already using.

Q. You've written that "because most medical journals are dependent on drug
ads for their survival, it probably also influences what they publish." Were
you speaking of The New England Journal of Medicine there?

A. No. That's because the Journal was virtually unique. We had a real wall
between the advertising people and the editorial offices. But many other
medical journals - and there are thousands of them - are little more than
vehicles for advertisements. Still others, while they are not quite that,
will put out occasional sponsored supplements, which I wouldn't have any
confidence in whatsoever.

Q. You left the editor's chair at The New England Journal of Medicine in
2000. Have there been any big changes there since your departure?

A. There's only one I know of - we had a policy that review articles and
editorials could not be written by anyone with any financial connection to a
company whose product was featured in that article. We said that disclosing
the connection was not enough.

When we printed papers on original research and there were often conflicts
of interests, we published those articles with disclosures. It's my
understanding that the policy on reviews and editorials is no longer in
place. I'm sorry they made that change. But they say it's too hard to find a
prominent author who doesn't have a conflict of interest.

Q. The first phase - the discount card phase - of the new Medicare drug
benefit is about to go into effect. Do you, as a newly minted senior,
believe it will make prescription drugs more affordable?

A. It's not going to have a major effect. These discounts are very small,
maybe 10 to 15 percent. At the rate of inflation of drug prices, they'll be
overtaken in a very short time.

Now, the main Medicare drug benefit that goes into effect in 2006 is
designed to funnel billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry. It's
an absolute bonanza for it. The pharmaceutical industry's lobbyists made
certain that the legislation contained a provision barring Medicare from
negotiating drug prices.

Interestingly, the federal government negotiates drug prices for the
Veterans Affairs system and gets very low prices because it is a bulk
purchaser. And Medicare would have been the biggest bulk purchaser of all -
so it could have negotiated very low prices. That provision allows the drug
companies to continue raising their prices faster than the inflation rate,
and the drug benefit will soon become unaffordable.
Nightwing - 15 Sep 2004 15:39 GMT
This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to
offer this plan at all.
> from the NY Times
Dennis White - 15 Sep 2004 17:55 GMT
> This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to
> offer this plan at all.
> > from the NY Times

Why the resistance?  Just curious.

Dennis
Dennis P. Harris - 16 Sep 2004 08:47 GMT
> > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to
> > offer this plan at all.
>
> Why the resistance?  Just curious.

he's a libertarian, and once again back in my killfile.

=================================================================
Libertarians:  People who want to sink the lifeboat we all live
in because they think their political philosophy will enable them
to walk on water. --- Mike Doogan
   Dennis P. Harris           NO_SPAM_FOR_dpharris@gci.net
              http://www.ejuneau.net
Dennis White - 16 Sep 2004 15:04 GMT
> > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to
> > > offer this plan at all.
> >
> > Why the resistance?  Just curious.
>
> he's a libertarian, and once again back in my killfile.

   Well, that's what I gathered from my short time at this newsgroup.
There are alot of libertarians (and Libertarians!) trolling usenet.  I
wondered if  he had any particular reason to post to this group beside
expressing his political views.

Dennis
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Sep 2004 15:43 GMT
>> > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority
> to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Dennis

Nightwing is a long time poster here, and a legitimate caregiver, not a
spammer.

Signature

Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

Camille - 16 Sep 2004 16:29 GMT
It only took me a few seconds to google the archives and find out how long
Nightwing had been posting and why he was posting here.  I think you
(Dennis) could have made the same attempt before questioning his reason to
post.

Best I can tell, we have people of every political persuasion here.  Which
is fine, we are not drawn together by our politics, we are drawn together
because our LO(s) are affected by Alzheimer's Disease or other dementia.

Camille

>>> > > This still does not show where the government has the legal
>>> > > authority
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Nightwing is a long time poster here, and a legitimate caregiver, not a
> spammer.
Dennis White - 16 Sep 2004 19:08 GMT
> It only took me a few seconds to google the archives and find out how long
> Nightwing had been posting and why he was posting here.  I think you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Camille

    Whoa!!!!!  Hold on!!!!  I didn't accuse Nightwing of anything.  I
simply asked him why he was so resistant to government sponsored programs to
lessen the cost of drugs.  I'm not a bit concerned about Nightwing's
politics.  I added that I was "just curious".  I was asking him to expand a
bit on his comments.  So far he did not respond, and I can see why he might
not given the presumption and jumping-to-conclusions my comment has gotten.
    I never questioned his right to post.  I made no ad homimum attack.
I'm unconcerned about his general view on government.  As a matter of fact I
hold very many views that are considered to be libertarian.
    I don't google archives to find other's previous views the bona fides
in terms of length of time posting, etc., and commit them to past positions.
I do however, comment when others interject themselves into a conversation.
Sorry that you seem offended, but I think you should calm down.

Dennis
Robert E. Lewis - 17 Sep 2004 21:16 GMT
> > > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority
> to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> wondered if  he had any particular reason to post to this group beside
> expressing his political views.

There are people of a number of political persuasions 'trolling' this
newsgroup.  There is a majority consensus on this newsgroup, and they exert
influence to make other posters conform.  For example, political-themed
signature files are acceptable, indeed, there will be several posts with
nothing at all to do with the subject of the group, just endorsing the sig
files -- if they conform to the majoritarian belief.  Posts of a contrary
nature will be criticized as off-topic, trolling, spamming, and will launch
a flurry of posts expressing angry disagreement (and these posters will not
be criticized by the majority).  Such is the subtle effort to silence
opposing viewpoints.

This happens in a lot of newsgroups, and the group that compasses the
majority varies from group to group.  In this forum, it is ironically a
political orientation that wraps itself in a mantle of 'tolerance,' and
absurdly imagines that 'McCarthyism' is exclusively a sin of 'the other
side.'

Signature

Robert
(who will likely be roundly flamed for saying this)

Dennis White - 17 Sep 2004 22:40 GMT
> There are people of a number of political persuasions 'trolling' this
> newsgroup.  There is a majority consensus on this newsgroup, and they exert
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> absurdly imagines that 'McCarthyism' is exclusively a sin of 'the other
> side.'

    I guess the above makes me ask:  "Is there a political component to
caregiving those with AZ and other forms of dementia?"  Or *should* there
be?  I'm sure there as many opinions on this matter as there are caregivers.
Personally,  I believe there *is* a political/social agenda that must be
addressed re: Dementia and caregiving.  However, it is pretty darned hard to
take care of an LO and have extra time or energy to devote to influencing
policies and attitudes.   Maybe it's the job of those of us who have found
ourselves unburdened after the death or insititutionalization of a Loved
One.  At least those of us who have the time and inclination.
    I have not spent enough time at this ng to determine for myself whether
the majority here has" [wrapped] itself in a mantle of 'tolerance,' and
absurdly [imagined] that 'McCarthyism' is exclusively a sin of 'the other
side.'  The accusation seems a little overstated to me at this point in my
observation.  However, I am an old hand at usenet, and I agree
political/anti-political correctness is common.  I think that people who
unbendingly adhere to either side of an argument are bound to criticize the
views as well as the tactics of the other.  In the meantime the *real*
issues-in this case the positive support of other caregivers-are left lying
on the floor.

Dennis White
Nightwing - 17 Sep 2004 00:10 GMT
I love this ,Dennis P. Harris is not only wrong but showing he is still a
coward.

I am not a big or little "L" libertarian.  As I said I feel that not every
problem needs a government solution.  There are many private agencies that
can provide assistance.  One reason the prices for health care are getting
so high is the involvement of the government.

I prefer to make my own decisions involving my life, and I am willing to
live with the consequences.

That's about it.

>> This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to
>> offer this plan at all.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Dennis
Dennis White - 17 Sep 2004 00:32 GMT
Snip...

 One reason the prices for health care are getting
> so high is the involvement of the government.
>
> I prefer to make my own decisions involving my life, and I am willing to
> live with the consequences.
>
> That's about it.

Thanks for the short explanation.  I hope you haven't conflated the names
Dennis White and Dennis P. Harris, by the way.  Although this isn't the
forum to discuss it, I *would* like to say that I mistrust big business as
much as I mistrust government.  I believe both are short-sighted, bloated at
the top, self-interested and have long ago ceased to serve the interests of
the common man and woman.  Still, I believe there are exceptions and
reasonable arguments to be made both for and against both our individual
positions.
Respectfully,
Dennis White
Nightwing - 17 Sep 2004 02:32 GMT
I don't trust them either, but business can be held accountable more easily
than the government.

> Snip...
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Respectfully,
> Dennis White
Evelyn Ruut - 17 Sep 2004 17:42 GMT
>I don't trust them either, but business can be held accountable more easily
>than the government.

Hi Nightwing,

For some reason I don't quite go along with your statement above.  We can
VOTE people out of office who mishandle things.   Hopefully we will see this
evidenced in November.
Signature

Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

Nightwing - 17 Sep 2004 20:19 GMT
Remember you and I don't talk politics;^)
>>I don't trust them either, but business can be held accountable more
>>easily than the government.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> VOTE people out of office who mishandle things.   Hopefully we will see
> this evidenced in November.
augustwestern - 16 Sep 2004 06:16 GMT
> This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to
> offer this plan at all.

Congress passed Bush's Medicare drug bill. Congress passes law. President
signs law. Authority created.
 
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