Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Alzheimer's / September 2004
Wherer does it say...
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Nightwing - 09 Sep 2004 05:12 GMT ...the government owes us free drugs?
I would prefer that the government stay as much out of my life, and wallet as possible.
Dennis White - 09 Sep 2004 06:30 GMT > ...the government owes us free drugs? > > I would prefer that the government stay as much out of my life, and wallet > as possible. I agree. But I also mistrust big business as much as the government! I realize the high cost of research, and the costs of bringing new drugs to market, but I also know that the cost of pharmaceuticals are driven by whatever the market will bear. I wish I knew the answer to the dilemna many face. The wealthy can afford the drugs, and the poor are usually covered by Medicaid. Those in the middle bear the brunt of it. Again, I wish I knew the answer.
Dennis
Dennis P. Harris - 09 Sep 2004 06:31 GMT > the government owes us free drugs? my point was that repugnicans tout is as a "benefit" when it's clearly not a benefit to anyone except their corporate friends.
and expect to get re-elected because of it.
Gwen Love - 09 Sep 2004 18:40 GMT I should stay out of this, but beg to differ in that my card has been a benefit to me on several of the drugs I take. The cost has gone down considerably. And when you have 14 prescriptions, even a little less on several would make a big difference. Gwen
> > the government owes us free drugs? > > my point was that repugnicans tout is as a "benefit" when it's > clearly not a benefit to anyone except their corporate friends. > > and expect to get re-elected because of it. Dennis P. Harris - 10 Sep 2004 02:54 GMT > I should stay out of this, but beg to differ in that my card has been a > benefit to me on several of the drugs I take. The cost has gone down > considerably. And when you have 14 prescriptions, even a little less on > several would make a big difference. the major beneficiary of the bill that passed, however, were the drug companies. the bill protected their predatory pricing and guaranteed that medicare would pay the highest possible price, by forbidding H&SS from negotiating with drug companies for bulk prices for medicare patients.
it was a pharmaeceutical industry law, not a consumer-friendly law. yet another reason to throw about 70% of the congress out of office in november.
Nightwing - 09 Sep 2004 20:04 GMT Dennis you might be a bit more convincing if you would drop the name calling. BTW AARP did endorse the plan.
>> the government owes us free drugs? > > my point was that repugnicans tout is as a "benefit" when it's > clearly not a benefit to anyone except their corporate friends. > > and expect to get re-elected because of it. augustwestern - 10 Sep 2004 19:35 GMT BTW AARP did endorse the plan.
Yes they did, And I promptly canceled my AARP membership because they sold us down the river. I agree with everything Dennis said. The big winner with the new Medicare drug bill is the pharmaceutical industry which now will receive fixed high and uncontrolled escalating prices. Medicare and Social Security will be destroyed by this ill conceived law.
The Senator from Louisiana who wrote the Medicare drug bill has now retired from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical industry.
Nightwing - 10 Sep 2004 20:00 GMT You miss my point. The government should not be involved. As for the "evil" drug companies, what about the programs that they have to make sure people can get needed medications free or at a discount if they can't afford them? You don't seem to hear about that much, but the programs do exist. If the market place were allowed to function the price would be less, why would a company price something too high to sell?
> BTW AARP did endorse the plan. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical > industry. Dennis White - 10 Sep 2004 22:18 GMT > You miss my point. The government should not be involved. As for the > "evil" drug companies, what about the programs that they have to make sure > people can get needed medications free or at a discount if they can't afford > them? You don't seem to hear about that much, but the programs do exist. I for one would like to hear more about these programs and what percentage versus overall sales is given away. I don't expect drug companies to be in business for anything other than making money, but I think the argument given here is a bit ingenuous.
> If the market place were allowed to function the price would be less, why > would a company price something too high to sell? The price is, of course, never "too high to sell.". the price is (in the US and Europe at least) the price the consumer is *capable* of paying. Pharmaceuticals are definately one commodity where prices favor as much as the market will bear. That is why the price of the same drugs sold in the US are cheaper in Canada, for instance. And even more clearly, where the cost of drugs sold in the US are far more expensive than those sold in Africa. In both cases the lower costs and the profits deferred are passed on to US consumers. Pharmaceuticals, like many other goods, are not in a "closed market".
Dennis
> > BTW AARP did endorse the plan. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical > > industry. Dennis White - 11 Sep 2004 02:03 GMT snip.....
> I for one would like to hear more about these programs and what percentage > versus overall sales is given away. I don't expect drug companies to be in > business for anything other than making money, but I think the argument > given here is a bit ingenuous. Ingenuous? What? Of course I meant to say *dis*ingenuous. :-0 Dennis
kansasman - 12 Sep 2004 22:07 GMT > > You miss my point. The government should not be involved. As for the > > "evil" drug companies, what about the programs that they have to make sure [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > business for anything other than making money, but I think the argument > given here is a bit ingenuous. Well, while AARP supported more Medicare availability, it also supported provisions that allow for more improvements to be made-- which means the Medicare Prescription bill is not the end-all-be-all. It is just part of instigating a bigger solution.
Evelyn Ruut - 10 Sep 2004 20:04 GMT > BTW AARP did endorse the plan. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > from the Senate to become a shill for guess who - the pharmaceutical > industry. He always was their man......
 Signature Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")
augustwestern - 15 Sep 2004 06:02 GMT from the NY Times
A CONVERSATION WITH | MARCIA ANGELL A Doctor Puts the Drug Industry Under a Microscope By CLAUDIA DREIFUS
Published: September 14, 2004
ASHINGTON - In many ways, Dr. Marcia Angell is an unlikely muckraker. A pathologist by training, she is the former editor in chief of The New England Journal of Medicine. She is also a senior lecturer at Harvard Medical School.
But just days short of her 65th birthday and her first Social Security check, Dr. Angell is taking on the American pharmaceutical industry with a new book, "The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It" (Random House)."I don't worry about labels," Dr. Angell said in an interview at the Hotel Monaco, where she stopped during a book tour.
In a 1996 book, she noted, she argued "that there wasn't a shred of evidence that the breast implants were causing all the disease they were said to."
"I was said to be a tool of the pharmaceutical and device companies," Dr. Angell recalled. "I call them as I see them."
Q. Why produce an investigative book on the pharmaceutical industry?
A. Because everyone knows that prescription drug prices are sky-high. Americans pay far more for our drugs than people in other countries. The drug companies say, "We need high prices to cover our staggering research and development costs, and if you do anything to squeeze our prices, it will stifle innovation." The book was written to examine that argument.
Q. The pharmaceutical companies say their prices are steep because they spend somewhere in the neighborhood of a billion dollars per drug bringing them to market. Did your research support this assertion?
A. A group of economists - mainly funded by the drug companies - came up with the widely quoted figure on this. They said that it cost $802 million to bring a drug out. They, however, were looking at the most expensive drugs to develop: new chemical compounds developed entirely in house. Most new drugs aren't that at all. Most are what people call "me too" drugs, which are slight variations of older drugs already being sold.
According to these economists, the real cost of bringing out those rare original drugs is actually around $403 million. But they doubled it by factoring in how much money the companies might have earned if they'd invested that $403 million. Moreover, the economists did not figure into their total the many generous tax breaks these companies receive for doing research and development. This is a highly inflated figure.
The fact is that for the last two decades the drug companies have been hugely profitable. Last year there was a little wiggle downward, but in 2002, the 10 biggest American drug companies had a median profit of 17 percent of sales compared to a median of 3 percent for the other Fortune 500 companies. In the 1990's, profits ran between 19 and 25 percent. Prices are high to keep profits high.
Q. Exactly what are these "me too" drugs you argue against?
A. They are minor variations of old drugs already on the market. Sometimes a company creates a "me too" drug as a way of extending a patent on an older one. For example, AstraZeneca created Nexium to replace the virtually identical Prilosec when its patent was about to expire. By putting out these me-too's, the companies can get new exclusive marketing rights on what are essentially the same old drugs.
Other companies come in with their own me-too's because markets are expandable. It's been shown that when you advertise one me-too drug, you increase the sales of all of them.
Q. Why do you have a problem with this?
A. The prevalence of the me-too's really says an awful lot about the lack of innovation within the pharmaceutical industry. If you look at the new drugs marketed over the last six years, 78 percent weren't even new chemical compounds. They were just new combinations or different formulations of old drugs. And 68 percent were classified by the F.D.A. as unlikely to be improvements over drugs already on pharmacy shelves.
At the same time, there are shortages of some important drugs that the pharmaceutical companies aren't much interested in making because they are not as profitable as the me-too's. But the companies don't have to turn out needed drugs, if they are not lucrative. And they don't.
Q. How much of the high cost of drugs is the result of marketing and sales expenditures?
A. The companies spend over 30 percent of their revenues on marketing and administration. Their marketing budgets are so enormous because they have to persuade doctors and patients to prescribe one me-too drug over another. If you had a truly innovative drug - a cure for cancer, for instance - you wouldn't have to market it much. The world would beat a path to your door.
Q. Was there anything in your life that pushed you to write this book?
A. As a journal editor, I witnessed a disturbing trend in pharmaceutical research. Twenty years ago, most drug trials were conducted at academic medical centers and the pharmaceutical companies tended to stand back during the testing period. However, in recent years, the companies have succeeded in attaching strings to research contracts, often designing the studies themselves, keeping the data in-house and deciding whether or not to publish the results. They also began to contract with private research companies for testing. Moreover, the medical schools and even individual researchers began to enter into entrepreneurial arrangements with the drug companies.
While all this was occurring, I began to see bias creep into medical research. And I saw a lot of it. The most obvious example were studies comparing a new drug to a placebo. That may be enough to get a drug F.D.A. approval, but it should not be enough for The New England Journal of Medicine. Doctors don't want to know whether a drug is better than nothing. They want to know if it's better than what they are already using.
Q. You've written that "because most medical journals are dependent on drug ads for their survival, it probably also influences what they publish." Were you speaking of The New England Journal of Medicine there?
A. No. That's because the Journal was virtually unique. We had a real wall between the advertising people and the editorial offices. But many other medical journals - and there are thousands of them - are little more than vehicles for advertisements. Still others, while they are not quite that, will put out occasional sponsored supplements, which I wouldn't have any confidence in whatsoever.
Q. You left the editor's chair at The New England Journal of Medicine in 2000. Have there been any big changes there since your departure?
A. There's only one I know of - we had a policy that review articles and editorials could not be written by anyone with any financial connection to a company whose product was featured in that article. We said that disclosing the connection was not enough.
When we printed papers on original research and there were often conflicts of interests, we published those articles with disclosures. It's my understanding that the policy on reviews and editorials is no longer in place. I'm sorry they made that change. But they say it's too hard to find a prominent author who doesn't have a conflict of interest.
Q. The first phase - the discount card phase - of the new Medicare drug benefit is about to go into effect. Do you, as a newly minted senior, believe it will make prescription drugs more affordable?
A. It's not going to have a major effect. These discounts are very small, maybe 10 to 15 percent. At the rate of inflation of drug prices, they'll be overtaken in a very short time.
Now, the main Medicare drug benefit that goes into effect in 2006 is designed to funnel billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry. It's an absolute bonanza for it. The pharmaceutical industry's lobbyists made certain that the legislation contained a provision barring Medicare from negotiating drug prices.
Interestingly, the federal government negotiates drug prices for the Veterans Affairs system and gets very low prices because it is a bulk purchaser. And Medicare would have been the biggest bulk purchaser of all - so it could have negotiated very low prices. That provision allows the drug companies to continue raising their prices faster than the inflation rate, and the drug benefit will soon become unaffordable.
Nightwing - 15 Sep 2004 15:39 GMT This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to offer this plan at all.
> from the NY Times Dennis White - 15 Sep 2004 17:55 GMT > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to > offer this plan at all. > > from the NY Times Why the resistance? Just curious.
Dennis
Dennis P. Harris - 16 Sep 2004 08:47 GMT > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to > > offer this plan at all. > > Why the resistance? Just curious. he's a libertarian, and once again back in my killfile.
================================================================= Libertarians: People who want to sink the lifeboat we all live in because they think their political philosophy will enable them to walk on water. --- Mike Doogan Dennis P. Harris NO_SPAM_FOR_dpharris@gci.net http://www.ejuneau.net
Dennis White - 16 Sep 2004 15:04 GMT > > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to > > > offer this plan at all. > > > > Why the resistance? Just curious. > > he's a libertarian, and once again back in my killfile. Well, that's what I gathered from my short time at this newsgroup. There are alot of libertarians (and Libertarians!) trolling usenet. I wondered if he had any particular reason to post to this group beside expressing his political views.
Dennis
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Sep 2004 15:43 GMT >> > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority > to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Dennis Nightwing is a long time poster here, and a legitimate caregiver, not a spammer.
 Signature Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")
Camille - 16 Sep 2004 16:29 GMT It only took me a few seconds to google the archives and find out how long Nightwing had been posting and why he was posting here. I think you (Dennis) could have made the same attempt before questioning his reason to post.
Best I can tell, we have people of every political persuasion here. Which is fine, we are not drawn together by our politics, we are drawn together because our LO(s) are affected by Alzheimer's Disease or other dementia.
Camille
>>> > > This still does not show where the government has the legal >>> > > authority [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Nightwing is a long time poster here, and a legitimate caregiver, not a > spammer. Dennis White - 16 Sep 2004 19:08 GMT > It only took me a few seconds to google the archives and find out how long > Nightwing had been posting and why he was posting here. I think you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Camille Whoa!!!!! Hold on!!!! I didn't accuse Nightwing of anything. I simply asked him why he was so resistant to government sponsored programs to lessen the cost of drugs. I'm not a bit concerned about Nightwing's politics. I added that I was "just curious". I was asking him to expand a bit on his comments. So far he did not respond, and I can see why he might not given the presumption and jumping-to-conclusions my comment has gotten. I never questioned his right to post. I made no ad homimum attack. I'm unconcerned about his general view on government. As a matter of fact I hold very many views that are considered to be libertarian. I don't google archives to find other's previous views the bona fides in terms of length of time posting, etc., and commit them to past positions. I do however, comment when others interject themselves into a conversation. Sorry that you seem offended, but I think you should calm down.
Dennis
Robert E. Lewis - 17 Sep 2004 21:16 GMT > > > > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority > to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > wondered if he had any particular reason to post to this group beside > expressing his political views. There are people of a number of political persuasions 'trolling' this newsgroup. There is a majority consensus on this newsgroup, and they exert influence to make other posters conform. For example, political-themed signature files are acceptable, indeed, there will be several posts with nothing at all to do with the subject of the group, just endorsing the sig files -- if they conform to the majoritarian belief. Posts of a contrary nature will be criticized as off-topic, trolling, spamming, and will launch a flurry of posts expressing angry disagreement (and these posters will not be criticized by the majority). Such is the subtle effort to silence opposing viewpoints.
This happens in a lot of newsgroups, and the group that compasses the majority varies from group to group. In this forum, it is ironically a political orientation that wraps itself in a mantle of 'tolerance,' and absurdly imagines that 'McCarthyism' is exclusively a sin of 'the other side.'
 Signature Robert (who will likely be roundly flamed for saying this)
Dennis White - 17 Sep 2004 22:40 GMT > There are people of a number of political persuasions 'trolling' this > newsgroup. There is a majority consensus on this newsgroup, and they exert [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > absurdly imagines that 'McCarthyism' is exclusively a sin of 'the other > side.' I guess the above makes me ask: "Is there a political component to caregiving those with AZ and other forms of dementia?" Or *should* there be? I'm sure there as many opinions on this matter as there are caregivers. Personally, I believe there *is* a political/social agenda that must be addressed re: Dementia and caregiving. However, it is pretty darned hard to take care of an LO and have extra time or energy to devote to influencing policies and attitudes. Maybe it's the job of those of us who have found ourselves unburdened after the death or insititutionalization of a Loved One. At least those of us who have the time and inclination. I have not spent enough time at this ng to determine for myself whether the majority here has" [wrapped] itself in a mantle of 'tolerance,' and absurdly [imagined] that 'McCarthyism' is exclusively a sin of 'the other side.' The accusation seems a little overstated to me at this point in my observation. However, I am an old hand at usenet, and I agree political/anti-political correctness is common. I think that people who unbendingly adhere to either side of an argument are bound to criticize the views as well as the tactics of the other. In the meantime the *real* issues-in this case the positive support of other caregivers-are left lying on the floor.
Dennis White
Nightwing - 17 Sep 2004 00:10 GMT I love this ,Dennis P. Harris is not only wrong but showing he is still a coward.
I am not a big or little "L" libertarian. As I said I feel that not every problem needs a government solution. There are many private agencies that can provide assistance. One reason the prices for health care are getting so high is the involvement of the government.
I prefer to make my own decisions involving my life, and I am willing to live with the consequences.
That's about it.
>> This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to >> offer this plan at all. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dennis Dennis White - 17 Sep 2004 00:32 GMT Snip...
One reason the prices for health care are getting
> so high is the involvement of the government. > > I prefer to make my own decisions involving my life, and I am willing to > live with the consequences. > > That's about it. Thanks for the short explanation. I hope you haven't conflated the names Dennis White and Dennis P. Harris, by the way. Although this isn't the forum to discuss it, I *would* like to say that I mistrust big business as much as I mistrust government. I believe both are short-sighted, bloated at the top, self-interested and have long ago ceased to serve the interests of the common man and woman. Still, I believe there are exceptions and reasonable arguments to be made both for and against both our individual positions. Respectfully, Dennis White
Nightwing - 17 Sep 2004 02:32 GMT I don't trust them either, but business can be held accountable more easily than the government.
> Snip... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Respectfully, > Dennis White Evelyn Ruut - 17 Sep 2004 17:42 GMT >I don't trust them either, but business can be held accountable more easily >than the government. Hi Nightwing,
For some reason I don't quite go along with your statement above. We can VOTE people out of office who mishandle things. Hopefully we will see this evidenced in November.
 Signature Regards, Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")
Nightwing - 17 Sep 2004 20:19 GMT Remember you and I don't talk politics;^)
>>I don't trust them either, but business can be held accountable more >>easily than the government. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > VOTE people out of office who mishandle things. Hopefully we will see > this evidenced in November. augustwestern - 16 Sep 2004 06:16 GMT > This still does not show where the government has the legal authority to > offer this plan at all. Congress passed Bush's Medicare drug bill. Congress passes law. President signs law. Authority created.
|
|
|