Medical Forum / General / Alternative / October 2006
Is a wireless office (2.4GHz) *completely* safe for our health?
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Shiperton Henethe - 18 Sep 2003 09:54 GMT Hi
Help - my office is about to get zapped at 2.4GHz! Is that actually safe?!
Apologies for the cross-posting but I wanted to canvass some opinions on the health impact of "wireless offices".
We are about to install a "wireless office". I wanted get a balanced spread of opinions.
Apparently it transmits at a frequency of 2.4GHz (802.11b) .
I am concerned that if we sit all day in an office flooded with (what is that frequency in layman's terms - short wave radio or something??) EM waves that it might not be very good for our health!
Clearly a high-enough power of EM waves will eventually damage us... but does anyone know what intensity of 2.4GHz is actually safe?
- Are there any scientific papers to prove it is safe?
- How safe is a "wireless office" likely to be compared to say 20 minutes/day on a mobile phone?
- Has anyone scientifically measured the impact of these type of frequencies on the human aura (which I gather does have atleast *some* basis in science)
We dont really *need* a wireless office. It's basically just showing off (and saving a little on wiring costs)...!
==> Any views?
Ship
P.S. I also us a "stylus" mouse replacement pointer for my PC - which I assume works on some kind of EM radiation, because it knows where you are pointing without actually touching. Is that safe? Will that be *completely* safe combined with the "wireless office" - or could we get standing waves etc building up...?
P.P.S FWIW, here's what we are about to buy from www.dlink.com:
1 * DWL-1700AP (Out door access point for main house range 600m) @ ?899.00 1 * DWL-900AP+ Repeater stables @ ?106.24 X * PCMCIA Wireless cards for laptops @ ?47.49 X * PCI cards for PC systems @ ?54.99 (X) reflects the number of computers or laptops you have that will require wireless access.
P.P.S. Do these wireless offices and mobile phones interfere with each other?
j j - 18 Sep 2003 13:55 GMT > Hi > > Help - my office is about to get zapped at 2.4GHz! > Is that actually safe?! well, if you haven't had kids yet I suggest saving some sperm in the freezer because your balls won't appreciate being put in the microwave...
Rick Russell - 18 Sep 2003 16:31 GMT > Apparently it transmits at a frequency of 2.4GHz (802.11b) . > I am concerned that if we sit all day in an > office flooded with (what is that frequency in layman's terms > - short wave radio or something??) EM waves > that it might not be very good for our health! It's the microwave range.
> Clearly a high-enough power of EM waves will > eventually damage us... but does anyone know what > intensity of 2.4GHz is actually safe? The maximum transmit power allowed is 1 watt, but most home/office 802.11b/g devices operate in the sub-100 milliwatt range.
Of course, the actual transmitted power depends on the antenna. A well-designed dipole antenna might boost the transmitted power from an 802.11b/g device to slightly more than 100 milliwatts.
> - Are there any scientific papers to prove it is safe? You can't really prove that something is safe. At best, you can only note the lack of observable effects.
> - How safe is a "wireless office" likely to be compared > to say 20 minutes/day on a mobile phone? It's unclear, since studies on the safety of mobile phones have yet to demonstrate any significant and reproducible health effects.
From a strict exposure standpoint, mobile phones are much more powerful, and operate closer to the human body.
> - Has anyone scientifically measured the impact of > these type of frequencies on the human aura > (which I gather does have atleast *some* basis > in science) I'm going to guess "no".
> P.P.S. Do these wireless offices and mobile phones > interfere with each other? I don't think any of the mobile phones are using 2.4 Ghz yet, but I could be wrong. Typical frequencies for mobile phones are 900Mhz and 1.8Ghz.
Rick R.
Paul Landregan - 18 Sep 2003 17:25 GMT > I don't think any of the mobile phones are using 2.4 Ghz yet, but I > could be wrong. Typical frequencies for mobile phones are 900Mhz and > 1.8Ghz. > > Rick R. Is 3G around the 2.2GHz mark?
Bluetooth is 2.4GHz
Robert McCarty - 18 Sep 2003 19:40 GMT see below
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > P.P.S. Do these wireless offices and mobile phones > interfere with each other? OK..some common sense finally being injected! YES you DO have a legitimate complaint. I. amoung other expertises, am primarily an R_F engineer. ( changed to health after retirement)
If one is sitting with a saturated field of RF..( as in using a closely held cell phone) the effect on the brain can indeed be deleterious. One MUST be outside the one meter zone ("near field") to be evn remotely safe! I shudder every time I see someone using a portable cellular phone that has no reflector as does Motorola and a very few others who KNOW the problem.
Motorola was challenged with this problem in the very beginning ans makes one of the very FEW SAFE phones. I noted another Japanese model recently.
To use a cellular phone safely, it MUST be at least one meter ( about 37 inches) away from the user. SOME folks actually have the "Extended ear piece" and are relatively safe as a result. ( a microphone is built-into the ear piece as well because one may actually talk via the ear canal as far as close proximity is concerned.)
The old "disease" known as HODGKINS is quite alive and well with cellular users. Be advised and pass this on..tyoo FEW even relaize it! It MAY get ALL of the phone maufacturerss to ntice that the public is NOT to be ignored for the sake of profit! Dr. B-0b1 ph.D
Rick Russell - 18 Sep 2003 20:15 GMT > If one is sitting with a saturated field of RF..( as in using a > closely held cell phone) the effect on the brain can indeed be > deleterious. One MUST be outside the one meter zone ("near field") > to be evn remotely safe! As an RF engineer, you probably know that the transmitted power is just as important as the range. "One meter" might be a reasonable approximation for certain devices, but not others. It's certainly not reasonable for 802.11b (~100 milliwatts transmit power).
Looking at power absorption numbers, the difference between the high numbers and the low numbers is not very much -- 1.5 watts at the high end, 0.8 or so at the low end. I'm not sure why I should be worried about less than a watt. It's certainly not enough to ionize anything at those frequencies.
Rick R.
Jeff - 20 Sep 2003 18:35 GMT (...)
> If one is sitting with a saturated field of RF..( as in using a closely > held [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > profit! > Dr. B-0b1 ph.D Where are the peer-reviewed studies to back your claims?
I think you are totally incorrect.
Jeff
John Michael Williams - 21 Sep 2003 19:01 GMT > (...) > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Jeff There are a few, I think unconfirmed, studies in the literature showing cancer-related damage from RF.
Most are unreliable epidemiological studies (eg Mild, et al). I consider them unreliable because they confuse cause and effect and require lab confirmation to mean anything.
Neurological damage has been confirmed in the Hocking & Westerman study, and shown by Salford et al, which are cited in my posting of the 19th. These are peer-reviewed.
There are others, too, mostly on small mammals or birds. Lu et al, 1999, for example. Also peer-reviewed.
RF can be harmful far below thermal levels used to set "safety" limits. The main factor seems to be pulsed RF (digital RF): The height of the pulse seems to be important, but not the average power. Current, poorly thought-out "thermal" safety limits ignore pulse height and just take a time average. This is why they are not only wrong but actually inapplicable to digital or other pulsed RF. They work for continuous irradiation, as from a mw oven.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Jeff - 21 Sep 2003 20:41 GMT > > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > There are a few, I think unconfirmed, studies in > the literature showing cancer-related damage from RF. Many of them do not look at the economic status of the people living near the towers. People who live near the towers tend to be poorer and tend to be exposed to more enviornmental toxins.When the economic status of people is accounted for, the increased cancer in these peopel in accounted for.
> Most are unreliable epidemiological studies (eg Mild, > et al). I consider them unreliable because [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > or other pulsed RF. They work for > continuous irradiation, as from a mw oven. Can you please provide full references (Journal, year and page, at least)?
Jeff
> John > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams John Michael Williams - 22 Sep 2003 05:55 GMT > ... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > exposed to more enviornmental toxins.When the economic status of people is > accounted for, the increased cancer in these peopel in accounted for. Yes: This is one reason why epidemiology can not be used to show cause or effect. It only reveals correlations.
> > Most are unreliable epidemiological studies (eg Mild, > > et al). I consider them unreliable because [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Jeff They are in my posting in this thread: 19th Sep. Go to the links; they will give you a good starting point.
Lu, et al (1999) is cited, with some related pubs, in http://arXiv.org/pdf/physics/0102007
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Jeff - 25 Sep 2003 04:01 GMT Hi John,
> > ... > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes: This is one reason why epidemiology can not be > used to show cause or effect. It only reveals correlations. But the epidemiology does not even show a correlation after the appropriate variables are accounted for.
> > > Most are unreliable epidemiological studies (eg Mild, > > > et al). I consider them unreliable because [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams I found a couple of them (below).
At best, the data are suggestive that there could be a problem, but clearly nothing has been proved.
The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get through the skull very well.
Jeff
Neuro-oncol. 1999 Jul;1(3):212-20. Related Articles, Links
Extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields (EMF) and brain cancer in adults and children: review and comment.
Gurney JG, van Wijngaarden E.
Division of Epidemiology/Clinical Research, Department of Pediatrics, School of Medicine, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.
Epidemiologic and experimental research on the potential carcinogenic effects of extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields (EMF) has now been conducted for over two decades. Cancer epidemiology studies in relation to EMF have focused primarily on brain cancer and leukemia, both from residential sources of exposure in children and adults and from occupational exposure in adult men. Because genotoxic effects of EMF have not been shown, most recent laboratory research has attempted to show biological effects that could be related to cancer promotion. In this report, we briefly review residential and occupational EMF studies on brain cancer. We also provide a general review of experimental studies as they relate both to the biological plausibility of an EMF-brain cancer relation and to the insufficiency of such research to help guide exposure assessment in epidemiologic studies. We conclude from our review that no recent research, either epidemiologic or experimental, has emerged to provide reasonable support for a causal role of EMF on brain cancer.
Lancet. 2000 Nov 25;356(9244):1837-40. Related Articles, Links
Comment in: Lancet. 2000 Nov 25;356(9244):1782-3. Lancet. 2001 Mar 24;357(9260):960-1.
Epidemiological evidence on health risks of cellular telephones.
Rothman KJ.
Epidemiology Research Institute, Newton Lower Falls, MA 02462-1450, USA. KRothman@aol.com
It is too soon for a verdict on the health risks from cellular telephones, especially in view of changing technology. From the Interphone project and some other large studies in progress, better information may emerge. Based on the epidemiological evidence available now, the main public-health concern is clearly motor vehicle collisions, a behavioural effect rather than an effect of radiofrequency exposure as such. Neither the several studies of occupational exposure to radiofrequencies nor the few of cellular telephone users offer any clear evidence of an association with brain tumours or other malignancies. Even if the studies in progress were to find large relative effects for brain cancer, the absolute increase in risk would probably be much smaller than the risk stemming from motor vehicle collisions. Cellular telephones affect the quality of our lives in myriad ways, for good and ill; the health risk is just one part of a picture that is slowly coming into focus.
Walter Roberson - 25 Sep 2003 08:19 GMT :The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get :through the skull very well. What stops EMF in the skull? Your citation was for 'Extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields (EMF)'; when I look at some of the references that have been provided, I see that the "skin effect" [depth at which the field has dropped exponentially] is inversely proportional to frequency -- so on the order of 1/e of the original field is present at a depth of about 2 cm at microwave (2.45 GHz) frequencies, and at about 20 GHz the 1/e depth would be only something like 0.4 cm. Thus at very low frequencies, the 1/e depth should be quite high unless there is some other effect completely that blocks the field [eg., the capacative resistance that was mentioned.]
 Signature WW{Backus,Church,Dijkstra,Knuth,Hollerith,Turing,vonNeumann}D ?
Tony Morgan - 25 Sep 2003 15:29 GMT >:The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get >:through the skull very well. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >unless there is some other effect completely that blocks the field >[eg., the capacative resistance that was mentioned.] I don't want to get dragged into this, but isn't "skin effect" only applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and not to EM radiation?
 Signature Tony Morgan Smile in the face of adversity - and adversity will probably think you're taking the piss and kick the sh.t out of you.
Jeff - 25 Sep 2003 22:00 GMT > >:The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get > >:through the skull very well. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and > not to EM radiation? I did not know bone was made of skin.
Shiperton Henethe - 26 Sep 2003 20:07 GMT > > >:The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get > > >:through the skull very well. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I did not know bone was made of skin. Even I know that that was a moronic statement. Oh or was it humour...?
Ship
Jeff - 27 Sep 2003 01:35 GMT > > > >:The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get > > > >:through the skull very well. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Even I know that that was a moronic statement. > Oh or was it humour...? Sarcasm.
> Ship Walter Roberson - 25 Sep 2003 23:58 GMT :I don't want to get dragged into this, but isn't "skin effect" only :applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and :not to EM radiation? Bodies -are- conductors to some extent.
The "Radiofrequency Radiation dosimentry Handbook" that was referenced earlier, http://www.brooks.af.mil/AFRL/HED/hedr/reports/handbook/home.html has describes the effect in section 3.3.4 "Planewave Absorption Versus Frequency". It is part of "planar models, which are the simplest but least representative of humans".
Quoting, The results for planar models have a characteristic generally true for other objects as well: At low frequencies the fields penetrate much deeper than at high frequencies. At very high frequencies any lossy-material heating due to planewave irradiation will be primarily surface heating.
Thus my question -- if one is discussing "very low frequency" EMF, then would the EMF penetration of the skull turn out to be high, not the low penetration someone indicated in earlier in this subthread? Or is there another mechanism that acts to block the penetration?
Perhaps the question is one of semantics, about what qualifies as "very low frequency"? I tend to think of GHz as being fairly high frequency (at least compared to every-day life). "Very low frequency" to me would tend to imply something on the order of the first free harmonics and subharmonics of 60 Hz -- i.e., the sort of frequencies that one would expect to find associated with the electrical transmission lines that are presumably the focus of the referenced studies, with GHz radiation possibly having very different properties.
 Signature I don't know if there's destiny, but there's a decision! -- Wim Wenders (WoD)
John Michael Williams - 26 Sep 2003 07:35 GMT Hi Walter.
> :I don't want to get dragged into this, but isn't "skin effect" only > :applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > lines that are presumably the focus of the referenced studies, with > GHz radiation possibly having very different properties. It's a complicated issue, because conductive material, such as salt water or blood, tends to reduce penetration. The dosimetry handbook should explain this, but maybe not very simply.
The longer the wavelength, though, the deeper the penetration; so, if you KNOW (somehow) that a certain frequency penetrates the head to a depth of 3 cm, then doubling the frequency will halve the wavelength and thus about halve the penetration to 1.5 cm.
Similarly, halving the frequency will double the wavelength and thus about double the penetration to 6 cm or so.
By "penetration", it might mean anything: Reduction of intensity to 1/e, or 1/10, or nearly 0 (not measurable). This has to be understood before correcting "penetration depth" from one frequency to another.
I would say that usually, the "penetration depth" is the depth at which the intensity is reduced to 1/e (about 1/3) of what it was just below the skin.
60 Hz power is not EMF, so penetration depth doesn't mean the same thing as it would for 3 GHz microwaves.
Power lines usually don't radiate: They are not antennas but are connected at both ends; so, they don't radiate. You would need an unconnected extension cord about 500 km long to get any significant EMF at 60 Hz.
If you connected something to it, say a lamp, current would flow one way in one wire ("hot") and the opposite way in the other ("neutral"), the two fields would cancel, and there would not be any radiation, even though 60 Hz current was flowing.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
John Michael Williams - 26 Sep 2003 19:25 GMT Hi Walter.
Previously, I posted a sort of approximate rule about halving the frequency and doubling the wavelength to get twice the penetration. That is very coarse and assumed the head was a nonconductor. The formula for a conductor is
I = k*exp(-x*sqrt(f)),
where f is frequency, k is some constant, x is depth in the head or other absorbing medium, and I is intensity at that depth and frequency. This is the formula for a conductor, such as copper, so it isn't quite right.
So, doubling the depth can be achieved by reducing the frequency by a factor of sqrt(1/2), not by 1/2.
The answer is frequency-dependent, any way: If at 2 GHz, penetration by some criterion is 2 cm, to get a penetration of 4 cm, this doubles x in the formula above, so to compensate x, it would be necessary to decrease the frequency to about halve the square root of f. Therefore, f would be about 1.4 GHz for a conductor.
The head is midway between a conductor and a nonconductor, so the actual result would be somewhere beteeen 1.4 GHz and 1 GHz. Durney, et al really should be consulted for a more accurate answer.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
> :I don't want to get dragged into this, but isn't "skin effect" only > :applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > lines that are presumably the focus of the referenced studies, with > GHz radiation possibly having very different properties. Dr Chaos - 30 Sep 2003 02:31 GMT >>:The other thing that has to be accounted for is that EMF does not get >>:through the skull very well. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and > not to EM radiation? No. Well, at really high frequencies, like microwaves, you can't really distinguish electrical current in a conductor from the EM fields in the space around it.
There is the other issue, though, which is the magnetic field, which will propagate nearly unimpeded as significant magnetic permeability is not a biological phenomenon.
You will induce some kinds of currents or potentials of unknown effect.
2Ghz seems awfully high to do much but I have heard comments from a rather careful and serious academic physicist/neuroscientist who, quite surprisingly to the physicist audience, expressed some health concern over cell phone radiation. (He thought that power lines posed negligible dangers).
D. C. Sessions - 30 Sep 2003 03:46 GMT > I don't want to get dragged into this, but isn't "skin effect" only > applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and > not to EM radiation? Skin effect is present for any frequency, but it also depends on the conductivity of the material. More conductive, thinner "skin depth."
However, there's another factor that needs to be considered: by the time you get up into the GHz range you're hitting the resonant frequencies of common molecules. Microwave ovens are effective partly because water is especially efficient at absorbing microwaves at oven frequencies.
A complex colloidial soup like human flesh tends to absorb a *lot* of frequencies in that range. The result is poor penetration, but efficient heating. There is some reason to believe that "cell phone cancer" is more heat-induced than anything else.
| "Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a | | completely unintentional side effect. " -- Linus Torvalds | +--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
LawsonE - 30 Sep 2003 10:59 GMT > > I don't want to get dragged into this, but isn't "skin effect" only > > applicable to high frequencies electrical current in a conductor, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > to believe that "cell phone cancer" is more heat-induced > than anything else. Recall hearing once that DNA resonates with EM in the gigahertz range. Just a thought...
Alex - 25 Sep 2003 14:56 GMT > Hi John, > [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > ways, for good and ill; the health risk is just one part of a picture that > is slowly coming into focus. Hi John & Jeff, The problem exist in the actual testing methods. RF, EMF, lets call it what it really is, Microwaves (MW). The testing being presently done is inadequate and controlled to reach inconclusive results. It's how you can simply distort the truth. For example: presently the practice is to irridate cells in a petri dish with MW. This type of testing holds the same weight as throwing a glass of water at a 40 ft. sport fishing boat to see if it will sink. This is the ratio that is being presently used and accepted. The medical field by far is the worst type of expert testimony one would want on a witness stand concerning MW since the testing method that is done (by medical experts) is bogus and accepted as hard fact. We all know that MW causes (creates an environment) the cells to divide, and when that happens we call it cancer. The proper way to conduct the test and show true results are put aside. The behavior of MW on the living human body reacts (flows) much different than that in a petri dish. I know this sounds like I'm bashing the medical field, but their findings are controlled. MW that is generated by any communication device is not good and has adverse effects. I became involved in the behavior of MWs' back in the 70's, while compiling my own research on geo and astronomical EMR fields. Back then I knew about the affects of MW radiation on the human body and its unique interaction and behavior. I can't fight a multi-billion dollar communication industry, can you? To make matters worse, certain prominent attorneys that are handling MW poisoning cases go by what evidence those medical experts are giving them. In clearer words, "they are barking up the wrong tree". They are letting the plumbers educate them on heart transplants. Unbelievable. Regards guys, Alex
Jeff - 25 Sep 2003 04:01 GMT > > ... > > > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams Neuro-oncol. 1999 Jul;1(3):212-20. Related Articles, Links
Extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields (EMF) and brain cancer in adults and children: review and comment.
Gurney JG, van Wijngaarden E.
Division of Epidemiology/Clinical Research, Department of Pediatrics, School of Medicine, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.
Epidemiologic and experimental research on the potential carcinogenic effects of extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields (EMF) has now been conducted for over two decades. Cancer epidemiology studies in relation to EMF have focused primarily on brain cancer and leukemia, both from residential sources of exposure in children and adults and from occupational exposure in adult men. Because genotoxic effects of EMF have not been shown, most recent laboratory research has attempted to show biological effects that could be related to cancer promotion. In this report, we briefly review residential and occupational EMF studies on brain cancer. We also provide a general review of experimental studies as they relate both to the biological plausibility of an EMF-brain cancer relation and to the insufficiency of such research to help guide exposure assessment in epidemiologic studies. We conclude from our review that no recent research, either epidemiologic or experimental, has emerged to provide reasonable support for a causal role of EMF on brain cancer.
Lancet. 2000 Nov 25;356(9244):1837-40. Related Articles, Links
Comment in: Lancet. 2000 Nov 25;356(9244):1782-3. Lancet. 2001 Mar 24;357(9260):960-1.
Epidemiological evidence on health risks of cellular telephones.
Rothman KJ.
Epidemiology Research Institute, Newton Lower Falls, MA 02462-1450, USA. KRothman@aol.com
It is too soon for a verdict on the health risks from cellular telephones, especially in view of changing technology. From the Interphone project and some other large studies in progress, better information may emerge. Based on the epidemiological evidence available now, the main public-health concern is clearly motor vehicle collisions, a behavioural effect rather than an effect of radiofrequency exposure as such. Neither the several studies of occupational exposure to radiofrequencies nor the few of cellular telephone users offer any clear evidence of an association with brain tumours or other malignancies. Even if the studies in progress were to find large relative effects for brain cancer, the absolute increase in risk would probably be much smaller than the risk stemming from motor vehicle collisions. Cellular telephones affect the quality of our lives in myriad ways, for good and ill; the health risk is just one part of a picture that is slowly coming into focus.
John Antypas - 18 Sep 2003 19:46 GMT Now people, let's be nice. An honest question was asked, and if you watch TV alot, hysteria does sell. Not everyone has a background in this stuff.
That said, in theory, microwave radiation isn't good for cellular tissues, however, neither is ultraviolet or X-ray radiation. And, you are getting stronger of doses of both from the sunlight outside the office and your monitor.
In addition, all energy is slowed when it hits things, like bone and by distance (power = inverse sqaure.) I can't swear to the figures, but as I recall, a cell is either 600 mw or 60 mw (correct me folks). Your average PC at your desk maybe puts out 50mw TOPS. Move a couple of meters and the power is far less (1/d^2). The AP nearby, by the time it gets to you, puts out even less power. Now add bone, and what gets to your brain is almost unmeasurable.
As a neurophysiologist, I do know something about this, and no, I don't work for cellular companies, or wireless gear companies. However, given relative differences between the various type of RF energy you're exposed to everyday, this risk is VERY low. You have a far greater chance of getting radiation exposure waiting in line at the Starbuck's coffee cart outside or by standing in front of the company microwave oven.
Put another way, of all the things that can kill me, hurt me, etc. I have a MUCH greater chance of being hit by an SF MUNI bus than by this.
Hope this was actually helpful.
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > P.P.S. Do these wireless offices and mobile phones > interfere with each other? Tim Tyler - 18 Sep 2003 20:05 GMT In sci.life-extension Shiperton Henethe <shiphen@yahoo.com> wrote:
: ==> Any views? News stories on a related issue:
``Teenage rats should not use mobile phones''
- http://www.mobile.commerce.net/story.php?story_id=2722&s=3
``Mobile phones make rats forget''
- http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s71123.htm
``Mobile Phones Kill Brain Cells in Rats
- http://www.prevent.se/english/newsletter/mobile_phones_kill_brain_cells_in_rats.asp
``Mobile phones 'may trigger Alzheimer's'''
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2728149.stm
``Mobile phones dont cause cancer in rats''
- http://www.electronicsnews.com.au/articles/9e/0c00e99e.asp
Some abstracts on the subject:
- http://infoventures.com/emf/top/spectrum_Discussion.html
 Signature __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org
Shiperton Henethe - 18 Sep 2003 21:44 GMT Yes it was an honest question which I asked.
This is very much not my area of specialist knowledge. So far I have got:
Mobile phones could well be fairly dangerous. But this is highly controversial. (With so much money at stake - what would you expect?)
Okay lets assume mobile phones ARE moderately dangerous.
What I'm fishing for is just how dangerous a "wireless office" is likely to be *compared* to a mobile phone.
The frequencies seem, well not massively different...
The power levels... well provided I'm over a foot away from any transmitter I guess that shouldnt be too bad...
But what concerns me is being bathed in the stuff ALL DAY LONG. I mean I guess the human body can take a massive battering provided it has time to recover. My undersanding is that this is why EM pollution overnight is so dangerous.
Incidentally sunlight is basically good for you - even better than they thought apparently. It's power to stop things like heart attacks is supposedly very much greater than it's power to cause death by skin cancer. Or so I'm told (with some authority).
Well, I dont feel very much closer to the answer to be honest.
Can anyone tell me with any authority, how dangerous a wireless office is likely to be *compared* to a mobile phone?
Ship
- BTW Re mobile phones, dont they still think that EM radiation whizzes up the earpiece which acts like an antenna... concentrating the EM rays right into your ear!?
- Is it possible to buy a mobile phone that only transmits *away* from your head? (I'd be perfectly happy to rotate and point towards the nearest station, on the rare occassions when I have to use a mobile...)
> In sci.life-extension Shiperton Henethe <shiphen@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > - http://www.prevent.se/english/newsletter/mobile_phones_kill_brain_cells_in_rats.asp
> ``Mobile phones 'may trigger Alzheimer's''' > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - http://infoventures.com/emf/top/spectrum_Discussion.html Phil Thompson - 19 Sep 2003 08:29 GMT >Can anyone tell me with any authority, how dangerous >a wireless office is likely to be *compared* to a mobile >phone? much less dangerous on account of:
a) the emitted power of each device is much lower than mobile phones - 50 or 100 mW vs 1 or 2 Watts
b) the wireless devices will not be held against your head
Phil
Tim Keating - 19 Sep 2003 10:41 GMT >>Can anyone tell me with any authority, how dangerous >>a wireless office is likely to be *compared* to a mobile [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >b) the wireless devices will not be held against your head c) Average transmitt duty cycle will be very low. (less than 1%).
Shiperton Henethe - 22 Sep 2003 13:24 GMT > >Can anyone tell me with any authority, how dangerous > >a wireless office is likely to be *compared* to a mobile [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a) the emitted power of each device is much lower than mobile phones - > 50 or 100 mW vs 1 or 2 Watts Fair enough. Except does anyone know if it's the intensity or the length of time of exposure (i.e. duration) that is the more dangerous?
Ship
Walter Roberson - 22 Sep 2003 18:48 GMT :> a) the emitted power of each device is much lower than mobile phones - :> 50 or 100 mW vs 1 or 2 Watts
:Fair enough. :Except does anyone know if it's the intensity or the length :of time of exposure (i.e. duration) that is the more dangerous? Intensity and duration both have to be taken into account.
As far as I understand, there is no damage unless a chemical reaction occurs, such as a chemical bond being broken or an atom being ionized and thus allowing it to interact with another atom. In the steady state, each chemical reaction has an energy barrier to overcome [because if it already had enough energy then it would already have taken place.] The question then becomes "To what extent does the exposure provide the energy to overcome the energy barriers?"
In order for input energy to help overcome the energy barriers, the input energy has to be present in the right energy range, and for long enough for a reaction to occur.
A very high energy particle (which of course is simultaneously a wave under the theory of wave/particle duality) won't have much direct effect because it has too *much* energy for a quantum transition into one of the gaps needed for the chemical reaction in tissue. Very high energy particles thus interact with tissue mostly by hitting another particle and triggering cascades of lower energy particles until finally some of the resultant particles are in the right energy range to cause problems. The really high energy particles such as "cosmic rays" stream through you all the time and rarely interact with your tissue. X-rays are an example of a lower energy "high energy" source: the x-rays themselves aren't what does damage, but the energies used for medical x-rays are chosen to be more susceptable to hitting atoms and breaking them apart.
Similarily, an energy that is not present for very long does not have *time* to cause a chemical reaction. Virtual quantum particles are created and destroyed all the time, but their timescale is usually far far far too short for there to be interaction with tissue. There are thus minimum durations before there can be -any- reaction.
Speaking of minimums, we now have to look back at the energy barriers needed for the chemical reactions to start. If the maximum energy being supplied is too low, then the effect is like trying to jump over a large wall by getting a 'boost' by stepping on a paperclip. And if its a big enough wall, then even if the paperclip is relatively huge (for a paperclip) then you still don't get very far. But if you were already close to being able to get over the wall, then even just a moderately large paperclip might be enough of a boost. The height of the wall (energy of the barrier) is always the same, but sometimes there's a lot of sand to stand on; the average height of the sand is measured by "temperature": the higher the temperature, the closer to the critical barrier height, the less energy (additional height) has to be supplied to get over the barrier (wall).
So... *generally* speaking, if the intensity of the energy of the cell phone or wireless device were low enough, it wouldn't be enough for there to be -any- biological effect (provided the temperature were in human-comfortable ranges.) And that's the classic analysis: that the energies involved in 802.11a/b/g wireless devices are not enough to cause problems in any situation people are likely to find themselves in.
Recently, though [earlier this year], there has been a more advanced analysis. Notice above that I spoke about the "average" height of the sand near the wall. For any given temperature (*average* kinetic energy), the molecules have individual energies that follow what is known as a Boltzmann Distribution. A Boltzmann distribution is a "negative exponential" towards higher energy: for each higher-energy step, the proportion of particles that lie in that energy range falls by a factor of about 2.7. Two steps and you are down to 1/7th of the original, 3 steps and you only have 1/20th, and so on. Depending on the number of molecules involved (proportionate to the mass of tissue) and the starting temperature, statistically there could end being some molecules that are very close to getting over the barrier by themselves. Energies emitted by a source can follow a similar kind of distribution, depending on the details of how the energy is produced. And if it just so happens that one of the molecules that is relatively near the top of the barrier meets up with the energy from the source then the molecule can end up kicked over the energy barrier. The probability of this depends on the initial temperature and the height of the energy barrier -- and on how much time you allow for the molecules to catch a ride.
I am not a physicist, and it would take me a bunch of research to figure for sure out whether the intensity of the energy source is more or less important than the duration of exposure. I -think- that the way it goes is that the probability of a reaction increases exponentially with an increase in energy, but only linearly with an increase in duration. If that is the case, then it'd take about 6 hours exposure to 100 mW to match the risk of 1 second of exposure at 1 watt.
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Tony Morgan - 22 Sep 2003 19:23 GMT Snipped....
ROFL... Someone practising for his doctoral thesis?
> If that is the case, then it'd take about 6 hours exposure to 100 mW >to match the risk of 1 second of exposure at 1 watt. Seriously though, the quotation of mW or W is inappropriate in this context. What *would* be relevant is the quoting of mW per square metre.
Even more relevant is that since the EM power incident on a piece of tissue is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the radiation source, the likelihood of any adverse effects resulting from exposure to 802.11 energy is infinitesimally small - unless of course you have a habit of holding your WAP or adapter against your forehead
:-) This rational obviously doesn't apply to mobile phones, however, but in spite of much publicity there doesn't appear to be any real evidence to support the suggestion that damage might occur.
 Signature Tony Morgan Smile in the face of adversity - and adversity will probably think you're taking the piss and kick the sh.t out of you.
Walter Roberson - 22 Sep 2003 20:13 GMT |n message <bkncl0$bnk$1@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>, Walter Roberson |<roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> writes |Snipped....
|ROFL... Someone practising for his doctoral thesis? Nah, I usually write like that ;-)
|> If that is the case, then it'd take about 6 hours exposure to 100 mW |>to match the risk of 1 second of exposure at 1 watt.
|Seriously though, the quotation of mW or W is inappropriate in this |context. What *would* be relevant is the quoting of mW per square metre. And in turn one should have to consider the size of the energy source and the radiation pattern; assuming a point source could lead to a significant error in the calculation at the distances involved.
|Even more relevant is that since the EM power incident on a piece of |tissue is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the |radiation source, the likelihood of any adverse effects resulting from |exposure to 802.11 energy is infinitesimally small - unless of course |you have a habit of holding your WAP or adapter against your forehead Quite true, but this matter in turn depends where one's adapter is. If it's built into one's laptop, then one's hands might average on the order of 4" away from the source, for hours at a time. One cannot use a plain inverse-square calculation in this matter because the laptop is likely not transparent to the energies involved: it might have shielding, and parts of it might act like wave-guides.
Going back to your comment about mW per square metre: absorption of energy is not pure surface effect, so one should be doing a volume calculation. Question: should the intensity of the field be considered to be essentially constant (proportionate to the distance from the source), or should one be taking into account some manner of "shielding" according to depth of the tissue the field has passed through? Shielding does, though, presuppose that the energy is caught within the upper layers of tissue; this in turn leads to the question of whether there are energy capture mechanisms which have lesser biological effects than the effect of radiation. For example, at microwave wavelengths, capture by tissue would lead to a generalized heating, but one could speculate: would there also be a certain amount of ionization going on, and if so and if it happens that the biological effects of that ionization are worse than generalized heating, then having the energy captured as heat in the outer layers might reduce the effective field strength deeper in the tissue.
Hmmm, if we assumed a particular received energy, then how would hand (mostly bone) react compared to skull (mostly bone) and brain (lots of water)? I can't quite remember at the moment why relatively dry things heat faster in a microwave than watery things considering that it's pretty much the water molecule that is being targetted at those frequencies.
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Gymmie Bob - 23 Sep 2003 00:38 GMT Mass of the liquid is the factor. Specific Thermal Density
"Walter Roberson" <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message news:bknhk5
> I can't quite remember at the moment why relatively > dry things heat faster in a microwave than watery things considering > that it's pretty much the water molecule that is being targetted at > those frequencies. John Michael Williams - 23 Sep 2003 16:10 GMT Hi Walter.
> > :> a) the emitted power of each device is much lower than mobile phones - [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > taken place.] The question then becomes "To what extent does the > exposure provide the energy to overcome the energy barriers?" This isn't necessarily true for the action of microwaves on living tissue: Biologically active proteins change state (choose which action, if any, they will catalyze) because of their geometric shape, not because of energy barriers. The shapes are maintained by hydrogen bonds (internally and with nearby water molecules). Hydrogen bonds break and re-form on a picosecond time scale.
Because they break spontaneously, there is no threshold energy involved. What is important is not an energy barrier, but the average location of other atoms in molecules nearby.
The problem can't be stated meaningfully in terms of the energy of individual microwave photons, unlike the case for ionization. Microwaves in principle can be harmful even though they don't have energy individually high enough to cause ionization (detatchment of an electron bond from an atom).
EM radiation thus can be harmful in two independent ways: by ionization, as for X-rays or ultraviolet light; or, by protein conformation change (microwaves or other nonionizing radiation).
It's easy to see that nonionizing individual photons can cause changes in protein: The human eye can be used to see NONIONIZING visible light! Therefore, such light affects proteins in the eye without ionization.
These proteins are irreversibly "damaged" by single nonionizing photons. The eye has specialized metabolic pathways to restore them to sensitivity, so we can see continuously in the light.
The eye can detect single photons, too, if completely dark-adapted; so, single, nonionizing photons definitely do change active proteins in the body.
It is not known how microwaves damage the body without any heating; they definitely do in some circumstances, but often they do not: If not, it must be that the hydrogen bonds are re-formed quickly in their original state.
It appears that pulsed microwaves can be harmful because of the amplitude of the pulse more than the frequency of pulses or their duration, but this is not certain.
I cited references on this elsewhere in this thread.
Definitely, keeping a distance from a digital microwave transmitter is a good idea; this has no effect on the energy of individual photons, but it reduces the number of them in a pulse, thus lowering the total pulse amplitude.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
> In order for input energy to help overcome the energy barriers, the > input energy has to be present in the right energy range, and for long [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > duration. If that is the case, then it'd take about 6 hours exposure > to 100 mW to match the risk of 1 second of exposure at 1 watt. Walter Roberson - 23 Sep 2003 22:08 GMT :This isn't necessarily true for the action of microwaves on :living tissue: Biologically active proteins change [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :bonds (internally and with nearby water molecules). Hydrogen :bonds break and re-form on a picosecond time scale. What you write is quite interesting; I didn't think at all about conformation changes. When I have some more time, I will have another look over what you write and see if I have anything to add.
I found an interesting (but somewhat technical) page showing how microwaves heat water, especially how the effect changes a lot with frequency and on whether the water is 'free' or 'bound' or ice, and changes based upon salts. The microwave oven frequency 2.45 GHz is explicitly marked in the discussion:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/microwave.html
Considering all the salts and bound water in the body, I would not want to make a prediction as to how frequencies near 2.4 GHz would heat various kinds of tissue.
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John Michael Williams - 24 Sep 2003 02:57 GMT Hi Walter.
> :This isn't necessarily true for the action of microwaves on > :living tissue: Biologically active proteins change [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to make a prediction as to how frequencies near 2.4 GHz would heat > various kinds of tissue. I looked at the posting briefly. If you are interested in actual data on THERMAL effects on tissue (heat being the end-product of most other effects, and being harmful if excessive), try the online manual at: http://www.brooks.af.mil/AFRL/HED/hedr/reports/handbook/home.html
Beware: Most of the traditional (and, incorrect) literature is based on the assumption that the ONLY effect of the microwaves is a temperature rise. Thus, the assumption is that the reactance of the tissue (water) is solely resistive. This, I think, usually is an oversimplification.
For example, in the link you provided, the author maps a dipole-moment rotation lag to power transfer to the tissue as heat. It may in fact be true that ULTIMATELY, this maps to thermal power; but, consider that the same phase lag could be caused by a capacitive reactance, which could couple the dipole moment (polarization) rotational power somewhere else and not deposit any heat nearby at all.
In an electric motor, for example, the rotor H phase lags the applied field, indicating that power is being converted from the field to rotary power. In a motor, the reactance mostly is not resistive.
The author is probably not concerned with tissue effects, but in that context, he is begging the question that the only effect will be heating. In a vessel of water, this may be very true; on tissue or organ boundaries, it probably is not true.
I think capacitive reactance has to be very important in considering effects on tissue, because it is well known that membranes in all living organisms are highly capacitive. They are models, in fact, of the high capacity electrolytic capacitors which are popular in DC power supplies.
A lot of microwave energy must go into mechanical, and nonthermal electrical, effects on membranes before being converted to heat.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Shiperton Henethe - 24 Sep 2003 19:01 GMT You guys are also missing just how complex living systems are. It really isnt enough to talk simplistically about individual photons and individual molecules and their hydrogen bonds.
The point is that living systems can be stressed for a while and they dont mind. They may even love it - yes even in the long term - PROVIDED that they have a good rest/recovery peroid to restore all their balances.
A living cell has at least 50,000 chemical substances all interacting and reacting with one another. In multi-cellular organisms, particularly large ones such as a human, messages can take a while to get around the body. Certain stores of reserves gradually get used up during times of stress. A minor stress can become a massive stress after a while.
Just try sitting in your seat without the weight off your buttocks. Well it's fine for a minute, fine for 10 minutes, it maybe fine for an hour or three. But if you dont shift for 12 hours, or two or three days you'll do serious damage to yourself. Bed sores is what it's called. Cause by persistent pressure and inadequate blood circulation and lymph drainage.
Likewise you can chew tobacco for many month before you get a mouth sore or ulcer, and it may take years before you get lip cancer. But your likelihood of getting lip/mouth/throat cancer goes up and up and up the longer you keep chewing.
My point is that low-level stressors can be recovered from - the body has all sorts of wonderful repair mechanisms including DNA repairing enzymes - but the body needs to be in different *modes* (generally controlled by hormonal signals) for these various different modes to be effective.
And likewise certain types of stressors may take a large amount of time many years even to have their potentially deadly full impact.
Looking at mere atoms, photos, and molecules is a bit like looking at individual logic states in my CPU or magnetic states (1s and 0s) on my hard disk, and trying to tell me whether I have a photograph of a beautiful woman on my computer and whether it will crash my PC. One is made up of the other, but it's not necessarily a very helpful way of looking at the problem.
Ship Shiperton Henethe
Tony Morgan - 24 Sep 2003 19:59 GMT Snipped....
No doubt someone somewhere has a lab rat taped to a WAP antenna somewhere (or more likely caged in an enclosure blasted my megawatts of 2.4GHz EM radiation).
And no doubt they'll be waiting for the said lab rat to behave abnormally - or even die - which I suppose can be considered abnormal behaviour :-)
Until that happens its all speculation - especially in view of Ship's observations.
You never know, 2.4GHz EM radiation might be a good thing - might even kill tumours. Not that I would advocate sticking your WAP's aerial up your backside to fix colonic cancer :-)
 Signature Tony Morgan Smile in the face of adversity - and adversity will probably think you're taking the piss and kick the sh.t out of you.
Walter Roberson - 24 Sep 2003 23:14 GMT :You guys are also missing just how complex living systems are. :It really isnt enough to talk simplistically about individual :photons and individual molecules and their hydrogen bonds.
:The point is that living systems can be stressed for a while :and they dont mind. You appear to be indicating that the biological effects of 2.4 GHz wireless is so unpredictable as make it not useful to examine specific physics or chemistry to predict what the effects of wireless might be. No point in examining first, second, third, or fourth order mechanisms that might account for a majority of the effects, because the 49999'th order mechanism accounting for 1 ppb of the cell might happen to love the same energy field that is bursting apart cells elsewhere in the body?
Biology is often subtle, yes, but it's complexity is not reason to throw up one's hands and say "We will *never* be able to make a meaningful prediction of effects!"
 Signature Take care in opening this message: My grasp on reality may have shaken loose during transmission!
John Michael Williams - 25 Sep 2003 00:35 GMT Hi Shiperton.
You are missing the point: Before designing a computer disc drive, it has to be shown WHETHER it will work. If it is shown, using a single bit, that it won't work, then that disc drive will never be built. Noone would go ahead and build the disc drive knowing that not one single bit of storage could work.
The claim that the only effect of microwaves on humans is heat, is here shown false. If it could be shown true, then the usual safety standards for microwave exposure could be assumed correct, and your examples of chronic harm could be ignored, even if the exposure were continuous for a lifetime.
Secondly, noone is claiming that the only effect of microwaves is, like tobacco, only chronic. Hocking and Westerman studied a worker (and cited a half dozen others) who were OBVIOUSLY brain-damaged by 2 hours exposure while working on a CDMA (digital cell phone) relay transmitter.
Lu et al showed that rats experienced PERMANENT circulatory damage after just 6 minutes exposure to a spark-gap transmitter.
All these exposures were within safe limits if measured only by thermal effects. And noone agrees yet on how to measure the risk any other way.
There are scores of experiments showing harm, and scores not. Almost always, the results are flawed because of lack of a rationale to design the study or lack of understanding to interpret the outcomes.
Your examples mean nothing if you can't show that the exposure was below some threshold of immediate harm. You are assuming you know this for microwaves, and the evidence right now is that noone knows.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
> You guys are also missing just how complex living systems are. > It really isnt enough to talk simplistically about individual > photons and individual molecules and their hydrogen bonds. > ... Shiperton Henethe - 25 Sep 2003 11:02 GMT > Hi Shiperton. > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > for microwaves, and the evidence right now is that > noone knows. Your tone sounds like you're trying to disagree with me. But reading your words I cant find anything that I disagree with.
All I am saying is that in addition to immediate damage there could be long term damage. And that it *could* be time period sensitive not just dose-sensitive.
Ship
John Michael Williams - 26 Sep 2003 07:15 GMT Hi Ship.
> > Hi Shiperton. > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ship OK. I don't disagree with this. Some sort of damage might not become evident at ones; or, true, it might be repaired.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
John Michael Williams - 24 Sep 2003 23:05 GMT Hi Walter.
Terminology correction:
Correct electrical usage is that "Resistive reactance" should have been "Resistive impedance". I simply wrote without thinking.
Explanation:
Impedance (to current flow) is of three possible types: resistive, capacitive, or inductive.
Resistive impedance is NOT correctly called "reactance"; this was my terminology error. Resistive impedance results in dissipation of power as heat. The power is dissipated immediately and not stored anywhere, so it is physically real and is represented on the axis of real numbers.
Capacitive and inductive impedances are called "reactances"; they result in storage of energy and no immediate power dissipation. They react to a change in current but do not imply conversion to heat. They are plotted on an axis of imaginary numbers because they do not represent a real loss of energy. They are opposite in sign, so whichever one is greatest dominates the reactance term.
For example, Ohm's law implies P = I^2*Z, where P is power, I is current, and Z is impedance.
Z may be written as Z = R + j*X, where R is resistance (real), j denotes the imaginary number axis, and X is the sum of capacitive plus inductive reactance.
Net result of all this: Assuming microwaves ONLY produce heating is equivalent to assuming Z = R (and X = 0).
However, near any biological membrane, X is nowhere near 0 when compared with R and may dominate the way power is transferred to the tissue from the electromagnetic field.
John jwill@AstraGate.net
> Hi Walter. > > :This isn't necessarily true for the action of microwaves on [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams Tony Morgan - 24 Sep 2003 23:52 GMT >Impedance (to current flow) is of three possible types: resistive, >capacitive, or inductive. Or any combination thereof....
 Signature Tony Morgan Smile in the face of adversity - and adversity will probably think you're taking the piss and kick the sh.t out of you.
John Michael Williams - 30 Sep 2003 08:47 GMT Hi Walter.
> :This isn't necessarily true for the action of microwaves on > :living tissue: Biologically active proteins change [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to make a prediction as to how frequencies near 2.4 GHz would heat > various kinds of tissue. Yes: Martin Chaplin's web site on water is probably the most authoritative one on the web. He cites one of my papers at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html#health (ref #356), on the very topic of this thread.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
John Michael Williams - 30 Sep 2003 20:08 GMT Hi Walter.
On the data side, a Dutch double-blind study on humans just has reported headaches & nausea from a "3G" relay transmitter: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030930/80/e9ud0.html
This seems roughly the situation in which the Hocking & Westerman study found neurological damage, although the news report didn't give much detail.
What surprises me is that there are not more cell phone users who report tinnitus and headaches, at least. There may be something in the time-sharing protocol of a base transmitter that makes it different (and more harmful) than a common cell phone?
If my figuring holds up, a base transmitter delivering 100 mW/m^2 at a distance of 5 m implies power output (assuming some directionality) of maybe 3 W/m^2 at 1 m and so about 40 W total power.
So, a cell phone held to the head should do about the same harm as a base or omnidirectional transmitter at a distance of 5 m. This is quite a distance, and I would imagine people routinely get this close to such transmitters without even knowing it.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Robert McCarty - 30 Sep 2003 22:06 GMT see below
> Hi Walter. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams The "general" rules for ANY RF Transmitter (wattage not specified) is that ANYTHING within one meter or "the "NEAR" field ( assuming lamda is 1 meter or less) is subject to RF energy damages. (burns, etc)
However CELL Phones are in the 90 GHz range or MUCH higher and should NOT be dangerous as their POWER output is very low ( in comarison) About 50W would be a BIG transmtter...Cell power is usually in the Milli-watts. (The 1 meter still applies) So, unless the cell phone antenna is shielded ( as with Motorola...making it less than an 180 degrees envelope) It can and DOES have an effect on the BRAIN Stem and WILL eventually cause PARKINSON's disease! The RF patterns also spread like LIGHT or SCATTER in an UN-even fashion.
Other chemistries WITHIN the body involving POISONS such as ASPARTAME can and DO also hit the BRAIN STEM "chemically" with the same results. It's ODD that since the Cell Phones AND Aspartame BOTH appearing on the market in 1989 thru 1992 and going asymptotic since apparently have indeed caused BRAIN stem damage to the tune of over 65 million NEW cases. of PARKINSON's (a/o 2002). This, I believe rates a massive LOOK_SEE! B-0b1
Rick Russell - 30 Sep 2003 22:31 GMT > However CELL Phones > are in the 90 GHz range or MUCH higher and should NOT be dangerous > as their Off by a large factor -- I think cell phones range from about 900Mhz to about 2 Ghz.
Rick R.
John Michael Williams - 01 Oct 2003 03:27 GMT > > However CELL Phones > > are in the 90 GHz range or MUCH higher and should NOT be dangerous [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rick R. I agree with that, although some new protocols require up to maybe 5 GHz.
The power is way off: The average cell phone transmits at between about 1/4 W and 2 W. With the antenna against the head, this implies about 50 mW/cm^2 to 500 mW/cm^2; the smaller the phone antenna, the more wattage per unit area of head exposed.
The real problem is that the average power/cm^2 doesn't seem to mean much, in terms of possible harm. Digital devices probably are more harmful per unit power, because of the relatively narrow pulses. Probably, the lower the duty cycle per unit power, the more likely that amount of power might be harmful.
It's pretty safe just to listen and not transmit.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Dr Chaos - 01 Oct 2003 04:42 GMT >> > However CELL Phones >> > are in the 90 GHz range or MUCH higher and should NOT be dangerous [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the smaller the phone antenna, the more wattage per unit > area of head exposed. I was wondering about that. The antenna is not a point source on this scale, and the relevant physiology could well be in the near field.
I would imagine that it would be only the strength of the fields (and not the power flux through any given area) which would be significanct.
In that case, would a smaller antenna really be that much worse than a larger one? Or conversely, would a larger one not really be protective up to a few times the wavelength?
> The real problem is that the average power/cm^2 doesn't > seem to mean much, in terms of possible harm. Digital > devices probably are more harmful per unit power, because of > the relatively narrow pulses. Probably, the > lower the duty cycle per unit power, the more likely > that amount of power might be harmful.
> It's pretty safe just to listen and not transmit.
> John > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams John Michael Williams - 02 Oct 2003 00:10 GMT Hi Dr. Chaos.
> >> > However CELL Phones > >> > are in the 90 GHz range or MUCH higher and should NOT be dangerous [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > really be protective up to a few times the wavelength? > ... Yes, an antenna is not a point source, and I was quoting power/area because safety standards usually are in power/area, with an exposure time limit (6 minutes, e. g.). The result is a somewhat ambiguous energy spatial density as a safety limit. This is just an approximation, even assuming that the only effect on the tissues was heating. Clearly, exposure of an extremity would be less harmful than of the head or thorax, as for ionizing radiation. Irradiation of the brainstem, for example, might cause death.
For a cell phone, the immediate exposure definitely should be analyzed in the near field, because even 10 GHz implies a wavelength of about 3 cm in air, and the antenna of any handheld phone will be almost entirely within a few cm of the head during transmission. Longer wavelengths would push the near field analysis out to almost the far side of the head.
My estimates of a few cm^2 were based on the area of the head parallel to the antenna. Assume a 1/4 wave antenna and 3 GHz average frequency (note that digital RF is not well described as a modulated carrier), and the antenna will be about 2.5 cm long. The actual antenna, ignoring rubberized insulation, would be a mm thick. So, what fraction of 1 W will be absorbed by a head 1 cm from the base of such an antenna and, say, 3 cm from its tip?
There are too many variables and asumptions to be precise, so I just assumed that the absorbed fraction, for 1 W would be maybe 400 mW from plain geometry; the exposed area would not be the whole head, but just the few cm^2 closest to the antenna. The side of the head, including the temple and jaw, is nowhere near spherical and varies in average concavity among individuals.
Clearly, a shorter antenna could be held closer to the head, so I think the exposure would be more likely in excess of safety limits based on power/area, the shorter (higher frequency) the antenna.
I agree that other assumptions would be reasonable; if you have a specific suggestion, I encourage posting it.
In a previous posting, my estimates were based on antenna action by the whole body, assuming a total subtense of 1 steradian at 1 m . . . definitely arguable, especially because total power, not power/area, was calculated. Once the RF is being "received" by the body or the long limbs, it can be concentrated by diffraction anywhere, most likely at the head, hands, or feet.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
John Michael Williams - 05 Oct 2003 19:21 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > really be protective up to a few times the wavelength? > .... Further comment: The near-field analysis is not relevant to depolarization of cell membranes: This depends solely on dipole rotation and on frequency, not on coherence or spatial pattern.
Frequency is independent of whether the analysis is near-field or not; the complexity in the near field requiring special analytic techniques is phase-related (as a function of location), only.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Dr Chaos - 06 Oct 2003 02:57 GMT >> ... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > depends solely on dipole rotation and on frequency, > not on coherence or spatial pattern.
> Frequency is independent of whether the analysis is > near-field or not; the complexity in the near field requiring > special analytic techniques is phase-related (as a function > of location), only. I wasn't thinking about anything that complicated.
Just the question about whether a physically small antenna would necessarily have higher field strengths of biological conseqeucne in its immediate vicinity than a longer antenna.
Basically: is it healthier if you extend your antenna or not? Would there be lower field strenghts intersecting your brain?
Or would it increase the overall volume subject to a high level of field strength?
{disregarding any automatic power adjustement your phone might make, which may in truth be the dominant issue.}
I don't know the answer.
John Michael Williams - 06 Oct 2003 21:03 GMT > >> ... > >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > I don't know the answer. I was misunderstanding your question.
Extending the antenna (on a phone with this feature) probably puts the length closer to 1/4 wavelength, improving sensitivity in reception.
It also would increase the peak RF power possible during transmission. Because, as you point out, the phone is adaptive, if connection is possible at less than peak power, the phone will connect at about the same power regardless of the antenna state. Only when connection can't be made with the antenna retracted, would extending it increase RF exposure.
I think extending the antenna and positioning the end of it far from the head would on the average reduce RF exposure. The peak E fields on an antenna typically are near the tip.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
Dr Chaos - 06 Oct 2003 23:40 GMT > I was misunderstanding your question. > > Extending the antenna (on a phone with this feature) > probably puts the length closer to 1/4 wavelength, > improving sensitivity in reception. And presumably also in coupling a transmitter to the radiation field efficiently, right?
By changing this antenna geometry, can you change the ratio of near-field electric field strength (presumed health issue) to net radiated power? I understand that it might change the ratio of battery consumption to net radiated power (what the phone designer really cares about).
> It also would increase the peak RF power possible > during transmission. Because, as you point out, > the phone is adaptive, if connection > is possible at less than peak power, the phone will > connect at about the same power regardless of the > antenna state.
> Only when connection can't be made > with the antenna retracted, would extending it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exposure. The peak E fields on an antenna typically > are near the tip. It sounds like that extending the antenna is not harmful, and may be helpful. I am trying to figure out if it really is helpful or if it is unimportant.
> John > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams John Michael Williams - 08 Oct 2003 16:09 GMT > > I was misunderstanding your question. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > consumption to net radiated power (what the phone > designer really cares about). I think the radiated power is real power; so, if a poor antenna reduced it, the battery would NOT be drained. Nonradiated power would NOT be consumed; it would be returned to the transmitter circuitry (in effect).
By the way, a correspondent has informed me that Hocking and Westerman has been published online at:
This study, and its refs to others, documents neurological damage from CDMA at nonthermal "safe" levels:
http://occmed.oupjournals.org/cgi/reprint/51/6/410.pdf
> > It also would increase the peak RF power possible > > during transmission. Because, as you point out, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > helpful. I am trying to figure out if it really is helpful or if it > is unimportant. I can't say for sure. I doubt any difference would be greater than a factor of two or three, in RF dosage.
Refraining from transmitting would be the best way of ensuring harmlessness.
> > John > > jwill@AstraGate.net > > John Michael Williams B-Ob1 - 12 Oct 2003 05:36 GMT see below..LOL! B-0b1
> > ... > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > jwill@AstraGate.net > John Michael Williams JOHN..a SMALLER antenna simply means thet the OPERATING FREQUENCY is HIGHER...and INVERSE relationship. AM radio operates in the Khz range where a wave can be MILES long. The Antennas ( towers being PART of the antenna)are usually 1/4 wave in height. ( 50 0hms)
A cell phone operates at above 1 GIGA-hertz._ K and X bands) ..or VERY high frequency..so the 1/4 wave antenna is only an INCH or so..and a 1/4 to 1/2 wave antenna is less than 1 inches. It's all "relative"..LOL! HIGH fequencies scatter as does LIGHT...Low frequency follows the Horizons. I have a MASTERS DEGREE in "MAGNETICS" which covers this subject. During my carreer in the AEROSPACE BIZ..I invented the Minuteman antennas as well as those aboard SATELLITES that have already reached Jupiter and beyond. PIONEER 10 and 11 have already left the Solar ssytem> Gosh I feel OLD..LOL>>
IF you live in the SF Bay area...get out NOW as the Magnetic forces you feel are from SUB SONIC Waves ( from a LArge Volcano that is almst at the surface) which Does make one sick as well as Nauseous!! You have less than ONE month to clear OUT before Dec 03 ( wednesday...and be at least in the Eastern part of Arizona,) Be ADVISED!! B-0b1
John Michael Williams - 12 Oct 2003 19:24 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the Horizons. I have a MASTERS DEGREE in "MAGNETICS" which covers this subject. >... Sorry. You have to have at least a Ph. D. in "ELECTRICS" to be credible.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
John Michael Williams - 12 Oct 2003 19:35 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the Horizons. I have a MASTERS DEGREE in "MAGNETICS" which covers this subject. >... Sorry. You have to have at least a Ph. D. in ELECTRICS to be credible.
John jwill@AstraGate.net John Michael Williams
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