Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2003
David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion
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Jan - 04 Sep 2003 07:02 GMT >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net
>>you barely know where the colon IS.. Oh, sure he does -- it's where he keeps his head most of the time.
Auto-intoxication" -- getting drunk in your car. Carole may do this frequently; it would explain her postings.
Gee, you're not just a spammer -- you're a lying spammer. You sell the ginseng that just coincidentally happens to be the subject of your "free seminar." You a.shole.
ZZzz.
Orac - 05 Sep 2003 02:14 GMT > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the ginseng that just coincidentally happens to be the subject of your > "free seminar." You a.shole. One notes that Carole still hasn't produced evidence to support her claim that 90% of chronic ill health is caused by a "toxic colon" or that chronic disease is caused by "autointoxication," much less even defined what the hell it is they mean.
Perhaps you could help her out and explain what those things mean.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
David - 05 Sep 2003 14:24 GMT How bout you, being so much smarter than everyone else, figure it out on your own? Unless you are really just an average a.shole. In that case , carry on.
> > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Orac - 05 Sep 2003 17:53 GMT > How bout you, being so much smarter than everyone else, figure it out on > your own? Unless you are really just an average a.shole. In that case , > carry on. I'll take that as a "no" answer to my question about whether you're willing to bail Carole out.
> > > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > Perhaps you could help her out and explain what those things mean.  Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Carole - 24 Sep 2003 00:49 GMT > > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that chronic disease is caused by "autointoxication," much less even > defined what the hell it is they mean. What sort of "evidence" would you like? The evidence is that there are complementary treatments that are effective.
What I will say is that there are nutritional methods for treating common complaints that never get mentioned by conventional medicine. This is all tied up with the concept of nature cure. Auto-intoxication is otherwise known as self-poisoning from my understanding. This is where the normal body processes of digestion and cell metabolisation of food, result in waste products - this is perfectly logical to anybody. These waste products are usually eliminated through the normal organs of elimination but certain conditions can obviously hinder the process - including faulty nutrition, overloading the system, stress, fatigue, emotional problems. My hypothesis is the body heals itself if provided with the correct environment - and all without pharmaceutical drugs. Prove me wrong.
Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/health.htm
Hawki63 - 24 Sep 2003 02:11 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: hubbca@austarmetro.com.au (Carole) >Date: 9/23/2003 4:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <fcb180f1.0309231549.641df263@posting.google.com>
>My hypothesis is the body heals itself if provided with the >correct environment - and all without pharmaceutical drugs. Prove me >wrong. simply get yourself a book on human physiology
>These waste products are usually >eliminated through the normal organs of elimination but certain >conditions can obviously hinder the process - including faulty >nutrition, overloading the system, stress, fatigue, emotional the above will NOT affect the functions of the kidneys,,liver...lungs and colon...
so your theory is all wet...and full of the s.it you think our colons are...
ever looked into a colon??...hmmmm I have..probably 10,000 of them....shiny pink tissue...no places to "hide" toxins.. or waste products
hawki
Rich Shewmaker - 24 Sep 2003 08:32 GMT --
> >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion > >From: hubbca@austarmetro.com.au (Carole) [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > hawki Hawki, I'm on your side in any argument about "toxic colon" or the benefits of "cleansing" ones colon. But to be fair, all those pretty pink colons that you have examined have had the benefit of a cleanse in the form of Golytely and/or enemas. If you took a peek in mine right now, I'm sure you'd find some sh.t. Not that my condition is unhealthy....
;o) Rich --> Has carried out the order "SSE's until clear" far too often!
Hawki63 - 24 Sep 2003 08:46 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: "Rich Shewmaker" rich@ilhawaii.net >Date: 9/24/2003 12:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <sMCcnZxfk9tB1eyiU-KYjA@ilhawaii.net>
>Hawki, I'm on your side in any argument about "toxic colon" or the benefits >of "cleansing" ones colon. But to be fair, all those pretty pink colons that >you have examined have had the benefit of a cleanse in the form of
>Golytely >and/or enemas. If you took a peek in mine right now, I'm sure you'd find >some sh.t. Not that my condition is unhealthy.... lol lol...how true....
but I was referring to the alties claim that colons have "hidden spaces" filled with rotting wastes (not the tiny divertics)..
SSE's...wow haven't heard that since my nursing school days in the 60's!!!
golytely has always seemed like a misnomer don't ya think....?? go lightly???
actually my doc used fleets phospo soda x 2...it was way salty..but at least didn't come in a gallon jug!!!
cheers... hawki
David Wright - 24 Sep 2003 16:34 GMT >>Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >>From: "Rich Shewmaker" rich@ilhawaii.net [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >but I was referring to the alties claim that colons have "hidden >spaces" filled with rotting wastes (not the tiny divertics).. Oh, not not just that -- also, your colon is lined with hardened gunk, like a bad sewer pipe. And people *believe* this...
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Hawki63 - 24 Sep 2003 18:38 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) >Date: 9/24/2003 8:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <ZPicb.8056$TD4.7042@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>
>Oh, not not just that -- also, your colon is lined with hardened gunk, >like a bad sewer pipe. And people *believe* this... > > -- David Wright :: alphabeta at have you ever seen those photos of totally distended and malformed colons??? Probably from some poor bloke with legitimate disease..
actually the massage place I use also does "high colonics" ....when I ask if they have a clue about what they are doing...of course they give me a blank look...how scarey..doing high colonics in a massage place....wonder what they would do if they perforated the colon?? or if they would recognize it??
yikes...back rubs for me only please...
hawki
Jan - 25 Sep 2003 00:39 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Oh, not not just that -- also, your colon is lined with hardened gunk, >like a bad sewer pipe. And people *believe* this... Everyone colon is shinny pink and works perfectly, no one ever has colon problem. Colon cancr is unheard of.
And people *believe* this....
This year, about 148,000 people will be diagnosed with colorectal cancer -- cancer that occurs in the colon or the rectum.
Jan
Eric Bohlman - 25 Sep 2003 00:53 GMT > Everyone colon is shinny pink and works perfectly, no one ever has > colon problem. Colon cancr is unheard of. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This year, about 148,000 people will be diagnosed with colorectal > cancer -- cancer that occurs in the colon or the rectum. Colorectal cancer is *not* caused by the accumulation of anything inside the colon. It is not the result of your "insides" being dirty. The claim that undigested food does not accumulate in the colon over the years does *not* logically imply that colon cancer doesn't exist, so the fact that colon cancer does exist does not in any way support the notion that the colon needs to be "cleansed" for proper health.
Jan - 25 Sep 2003 02:45 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: Eric Bohlman ebohlman@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Colorectal cancer is *not* caused by the accumulation of anything inside >the colon Yeah, it's caused by the bright glow of the shinny pink.
>It is not the result of your "insides" being dirty. Yeah, the colon is the cleanest part of the body.
>The claim >that undigested food does not accumulate in the colon over the years does *not* logically imply that colon cancer doesn't exist, so the fact that
>colon cancer does exist does not in any way support the notion that the >colon needs to be "cleansed" for proper health. You got that down pat Eric. Congrads you get an A in sock puppetry.
Organized medicine can't find a cause, that's because it would make them liars of saying the colon is always shinny pink.
So the number hust keeps climbing every year, but what the hey, organized medicine could NEVER EVER admit they might be wrong. <GRASP>.
Jan
Hawki63 - 25 Sep 2003 02:56 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) >Date: 9/24/2003 4:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030924193917.28259.00000113@mb-m22.aol.com>
>Everyone colon is shinny pink and works perfectly, no one ever has colon >problem. Colon cancr is unheard of. actually ONLY the area of the cancer is nOT shiny pink and healthy looking....
again...Janny..don't argue with someone who has done over 10,000 scopings...and yes I found many many colon cancers....the areas above and beyond the lesion itself was indeed very shiny pink and healthy looking
MY "actual experience"
so you have none...
sad that...
btw....areas around the lesion can be as small as a few inches...in a 23 foot small and large colon,,that leaves a lot of shiny and pink...
hawki
Marcus Probertious - 25 Sep 2003 22:13 GMT > >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Everyone colon is shinny pink and works perfectly, no one ever has colon > problem. Colon cancr is unheard of. He did not say that. And, are you claiming that feces is a cause of colon cancer?
> And people *believe* this.... > > This year, about 148,000 people will be diagnosed with colorectal cancer -- > cancer that occurs in the colon or the rectum. It *occurs* there. However, what is its cause?
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 12:22 GMT > >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion > >From: hubbca@austarmetro.com.au (Carole) [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > hawki Orac - 24 Sep 2003 15:22 GMT > Excuse me, what are you, Hawki63, doing in an Alternative Health group? What does it matter to you? It is an unmoderated group. Anyone who wants to can post here.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 15:45 GMT > > Excuse me, what are you, Hawki63, doing in an Alternative Health group? > > What does it matter to you? What does it matter to you that I asked? It is an unmoderated group. Golly Gee! did you go to school to learn that? Anyone who wants
> to can post here. Yes, I have noticed several drug users, drug pushers, "doctors", other types of low life here. Speaking of which, why are YOU here? Are you here to save and protect the world? Highly developed Jesus complex to judge by your posts.You know, there is help for your condition.
> -- > Orac the confused > > | Orac - 24 Sep 2003 16:57 GMT > Yes, I have noticed several drug users, drug pushers, "doctors", other types > of low life here. Speaking of which, why are YOU here? Are you here to save > and protect the world? Nope. Just to do my tiny little part when I have time to make sure that grossly wrong and irresponsible medical advice doesn't go without at least an attempt to refute it. I have no illusions that it does all that much good, given how resistant you and your altie buds seem to be to evidence, reason, and logic. But you never know. Also, posting here also serves as a diversion, in which altie claims prod me to look up medical information that I might not normally otherwise bother with, broadening my knowledge of conventional medicine beyond my specialty. It's actually worked too.
>Highly developed Jesus complex to judge by your > posts. Nahh. I leave the Jesus complexes to folks like you. One excellent example: Your buddy "Dave" the Glowlife spammer has a highly developed Jesus complex. After all, he claims to exist on a "higher spiritual plane" and to have an "understanding" that I (or any other scientist) can never achieve. He claims his "understanding" came to him without knowledge or study.
All I claim is that I know a lot about biology and medicine (which is true). I've never claimed to have a "higher spiritual understanding" that others can't achieve. I've never claimed to "know" that a particular treatment will "cure" something unless I have evidence to back it up.
>You know, there is help for your condition. Not from you, there isn't.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Hawki63 - 24 Sep 2003 18:41 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: Orac orac@mac.com >Date: 9/24/2003 8:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <orac-8A1454.11575624092003@host9.newsfeeds.com>
>Speaking of which, why are YOU here? Are you here to save >> and protect the world? part of professional medical practice is education...and refuting the oh so obviously ridiculous things that are posted here...
hopefully it will protect at least ONE person...and maybe make my job a bit easier...it surely is tuf to keep up with the hair brained theories you guys tout when folks come in and repeat what they have read..or been told by an altie
hawki
David Wright - 24 Sep 2003 16:38 GMT Tools, what are you doing with a second identity? Pulling a Gohde?
And please, please tell me you're not falling back on that stupid, tired old game of whining about how the awful, evil debunkers are on m.h.a, and not joining the choir of "all alt therapies are manna from heaven." I don't think much of you, but I'd thought better of you than *that*.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
>> >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >> >From: hubbca@austarmetro.com.au (Carole) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> hawki toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 21:37 GMT Had a bad case of computer worm.
> Tools, what are you doing with a second identity? Pulling a Gohde? > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >> > >> hawki Carole - 25 Sep 2003 15:37 GMT > >My hypothesis is the body heals itself if provided with the > >correct environment - and all without pharmaceutical drugs. Prove me > >wrong. > > simply get yourself a book on human physiology You get yourself a book on cellsalts.
> >These waste products are usually > >eliminated through the normal organs of elimination but certain [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the above will NOT affect the functions of the kidneys,,liver...lungs and > colon... Why should I believe you? Look at the long list of chronic complaints conventional medicine can't cure, while all the time they overlook the subject of proper nutrition and auto-toxemia or self-poisoning - which occurs when the body can't get rid of wastes fast enough and they bank up in the system.
See "Toxemia Explained" by JD Tilden MD ad http://www.soilandhealth.org library - health section.
> so your theory is all wet...and full of the s.it you think our colons are... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > hawki So what is a bowel pocket, or what is constipation all about?
Statistics from http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/colon.html#statistcs . 1. 150,000 people in the United States are diagnosed with colon and rectal cancers every year. 2. 75,000 people died of these cancers in 1989. 3. Over 100,000 colostomies are performed every year. 4. 95% of our country is chronically constipated with impacted colons. 5. Average impacted waste in a colon is 4 to 12 lbs. 6. It is not unusual for a person to carry 10--20 Ibs in extra fecal weight adding to waist size! 7. Most people carry a nest of worms and other parasites in this waste material. 8. All bowel problems can be alleviated with colon hydrotherapy. 9. Most health problems are aggravated by toxins originating in the colon
Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/
Hawki63 - 25 Sep 2003 17:46 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: hubbca@austarmetro.com.au (Carole) >Date: 9/25/2003 7:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <fcb180f1.0309250637.1f3d4a47@posting.google.com>
>You get yourself a book on cellsalts. I have read far too much of your drivel...
>See "Toxemia Explained" by JD Tilden MD ad >http://www.soilandhealth.org library - health section. i know what toxemia is....and I don't have to read about it on a site entitled "SoilandHealth"...where books are being sold....that surely biases the content....NOR do I believe everything I read on a website....
I believe in evidence....not bs propagated by some kook whose kookiness supports YOUR kookiness
>So what is a bowel pocket, or what is constipation all about? for your edification...a "bowel pocket".. called diverticulosis are TINY little pockets that are seen in probably 50% of folks over age 50...the "theory" is that the many years of muscular action of the colon can cause these tiny outpouchings...and yes,,,,they are tiny...most are so small that either NOTHING is seen in them,,or very tiny bits of feces...we used to tell folks to avoid fruits with seeds,,,now that is considered overkill...
there is a condition called diverticuLITIS when a pocket gets infected....believe me,,,you know if you have that..and antibiotics will knock it out...
"constipation" is merely a condition when one is NOT eating enuf fiber and/or water....it is not pathology...actually worrying about it can make it worse,,as can repeated interventions like colon cleanses,,enemas etc....the colon CAN forget how to work..so it is NOT recommended except in very severe cases to intervene with harsh treatments
>. 1. 150,000 people in the United States are diagnosed with colon >and rectal cancers every year. > 2. 75,000 people died of these cancers in 1989. > 3. Over 100,000 colostomies are performed every year. those are probably accurate...however colon cancer and constipation are NOT related
> 4. 95% of our country is chronically constipated with impacted >colons. laughable...
> 5. Average impacted waste in a colon is 4 to 12 lbs. > 6. It is not unusual for a person to carry 10--20 Ibs in extra >fecal weight adding to waist size! OMG do you actually believe that???? lol lol.....I HAVE seen some impacted colons....but they are rare...
BTW...oh those neat colon pics are on that site!!! There must only be one set..since I have been seeing the same gross pictures for over 20 years....does megacolon exist?? sure it does....how often does it progress to the pathology represented???? give me a break..
> 7. Most people carry a nest of worms and other parasites in this >waste material. one would be very sick if this were the case....a "nest of worms"...yikes..even known a poor kid infested with pinworms?? little buggers about the diameter of a human hair??? their presence is sooooo annoying that said kids would NOT tolerate it for long....one little pill will kill the buggers (common in preschool sandbox inhabitants,,who don't have handwashing after bowel movements down pat yet)
> 8. All bowel problems can be alleviated with colon hydrotherapy. by this are you insinuating that a colon cancer will go away with a high colonic?? you are sadder than I thought
>9. Most health problems are aggravated by toxins originating in >the colon any legitimate reference,,peer reviewed journals???
hawki
Jan - 26 Sep 2003 00:20 GMT >From: hubbca@austarmetro.com.au (Carole) >Date: 9/25/2003 9:37 AM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <fcb180f1.0309250637.1f3d4a47@posting.google.com> It appears hawki is here because she has a low self esteem, she wants all the know all about her education. i.e. brainwashing from organized medicine.
All colons are shinny pink.
She evidently doesn't know about the rate of colon cancer. Cancer is shinny pink.
She is also here to tell everyone how smart she is and how stupid all others are. Yikes!
Jan
>> >My hypothesis is the body heals itself if provided with the >> >correct environment - and all without pharmaceutical drugs. Prove me [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >Carole >http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/ Hawki63 - 26 Sep 2003 01:12 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) >Date: 9/25/2003 4:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030925192011.01706.00000280@mb-m29.aol.com>
>It appears hawki is here because she has a low self esteem, she wants all the >know all about her education. i.e. funny coming from a preschool teacher who presumes to lecture to those of us with the education...
nothing wrong with MY self esteem....
>All colons are shinny pink. yikes...you can't even spell "shiny" and you presume to lecture me??
again...how many colons have you inspected??? I have "actual experience"...you don't
>She evidently doesn't know about the rate of colon cancer. Cancer is shinny >pink. No...YOU have no knowledge of the rate...
Never said the CANCER was shiny pink..but go up or two maybe 3 inches from the lesion...voila shiny pink?? care for me to send you a picture of cancers I have found?? "actual experience"...not from a bizarro book
>She is also here to tell everyone how smart she is and how stupid all others >are. Yikes! actually/....aside from you,,dave and carole...all of whom have repeatedly "told" on themselves...have never anyone else was stupid...oh wait..there was rb...truly an idiot...
>>. 1. 150,000 people in the United States are diagnosed with colon >>and rectal cancers every year. >> 2. 75,000 people died of these cancers in 1989. >> 3. Over 100,000 colostomies are performed every year. the above stats I did not argue with...etiology of the cancer...ie constipation,,,ie..I did... hawki
D. C. Sessions - 26 Sep 2003 02:32 GMT > again...how many colons have you inspected??? I have "actual experience"...you > don't Only one, but she sees a LOT of it.
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end
Ilsa9 - 26 Sep 2003 20:08 GMT >> again...how many colons have you inspected??? I have "actual >experience"...you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >| Microsoft: ***** SPLORRRFFF! ***** There goes another keyboard......
toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 20:30 GMT > >> again...how many colons have you inspected??? I have "actual > >experience"...you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ***** SPLORRRFFF! ***** There goes another keyboard...... Well, we all get to see yours almost every day here. Oh I'm sorry, that was your ANUS you show here. My bad.
Markus Proberteous - 26 Sep 2003 20:30 GMT > > again...how many colons have you inspected??? I have "actual experience"...you > > don't > > Only one, but she sees a LOT of it. It brings a whole new meaning to a person seeing the world with blinders on.
Perhaps this explains why she is so narrow minded.
D. C. Sessions - 27 Sep 2003 05:28 GMT >> > again...how many colons have you inspected??? I have "actual > experience"...you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Perhaps this explains why she is so narrow minded. It also gives a hole new meaning to "head case."
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end
Orac - 24 Sep 2003 03:00 GMT > > > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > What sort of "evidence" would you like? The evidence is that there are > complementary treatments that are effective. What specific evidence? Effective in treating what specific conditions?
> What I will say is that there are nutritional methods for treating > common complaints that never get mentioned by conventional medicine. > This is all tied up with the concept of nature cure. > Auto-intoxication is otherwise known as self-poisoning from my > understanding. The body is well-equipped to rid itself of the "toxins" caused from oxidative phosphorylation and other bodily processes.
>This is where the normal body processes of digestion > and cell metabolisation of food, result in waste products - this is > perfectly logical to anybody. Notice that rarely, if ever, does an altie tell us which SPECIFIC "toxins" cause which specific disease, nor do they ever tell us which specific toxin their "treatment" removes. They almost always speak only vaguely of unspecified "toxins."
>These waste products are usually > eliminated through the normal organs of elimination but certain [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > correct environment - and all without pharmaceutical drugs. Prove me > wrong. It is not up to me to "prove you wrong." You made an assertion that the body heals itself if provided with the "correct" environment. The burden of proof to back up that assertion is therefore on you. It is therefore up to you to prove yourself correct. It is also incumbent upon you to define what the "correct" environment is.
But if you really want to be proven wrong, I'll start with one condition that can't be cured by your methods. Severe gangrene is a condition that no amount of environmental manipulation or nutritional therapies is going to heal. It needs antibiotics and surgery to either debride the dead tissue or to amputate the gangrenous limb. Period.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 12:53 GMT Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac would not get to hurt someone.
> > > > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net > > > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Orac - 24 Sep 2003 15:21 GMT > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac would > not get to hurt someone. Really?
Perhaps you could educate us. Tell us: What specific methods are you referring to? What is your evidence that the methods you have in mind will "cure" gangrene. Remember, by definition, gangrene means that there is necrotic (dead) tissue around, which is what the bacteria are feasting on and which is the source of the infection and sepsis. Gangrene is literally putrefaction of a person's dead tissue. How do your "methods" get rid of this putrefying dead tissue and eliminate the systemic sepsis caused by the bacteria that are busily chowing down on the dead tissue?
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 15:44 GMT > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac would > > not get to hurt someone. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" If, by this time you do not know the answer, you are beyond learning.
Orac - 24 Sep 2003 16:48 GMT > > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > would [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > If, by this time you do not know the answer, you are beyond learning. If, by this time, you cannot provide the answer, you are beyond my bothering to take seriously.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 21:37 GMT Then don't.
> > > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > > would [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Orac - 24 Sep 2003 22:04 GMT > Then don't. Don't worry. I don't.
> > > > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, > Orac [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > If, by this time, you cannot provide the answer, you are beyond my > > bothering to take seriously.  Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Rich Shewmaker - 24 Sep 2003 20:20 GMT --
> > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Perhaps you could educate us. Tell us: What specific methods are you > > referring to?
> If, by this time you do not know the answer, you are beyond learning. Don't play games, tools. What IS your answer.
I might suggest maggots and hyperbaric oxygen, but those aren't exactly AM.
--Rich
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 21:37 GMT Hmmm, maggots would do the job, but it IS difficult to find them when you need them.
> -- > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > --Rich Ilsa9 - 24 Sep 2003 16:04 GMT >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac >would [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >systemic sepsis caused by the bacteria that are busily chowing down on >the dead tissue? Med(S)tools believes that a combination of Urine Therapy and Qi-Gong will cure such an infection. I believe he said as much in a post a couple of years ago.
As dysfunctional as he is, at least Tools practices what he p(r)ea-ches.
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 16:18 GMT > >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > >would [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > As dysfunctional as he is, at least Tools practices what he p(r)ea-ches. P.S, I agree that the dead tissue needs be removed.
Orac - 24 Sep 2003 16:49 GMT > > >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > > >would [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > As dysfunctional as he is, at least Tools practices what he p(r)ea-ches. > P.S, I agree that the dead tissue needs be removed. Oh, really? Then how does one remove that dead tissue without surgical debridement?
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 24 Sep 2003 20:24 GMT I read a report wherein maggots (loose discription) were used to remove the dead tissue.
Is that a herbal remedy, alt med, or just gross?
>>>>>Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac >>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Oh, really? Then how does one remove that dead tissue without surgical > debridement? toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 21:37 GMT Effective.
> I read a report wherein maggots (loose discription) were used to remove > the dead tissue. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Oh, really? Then how does one remove that dead tissue without surgical > > debridement? Orac - 24 Sep 2003 22:03 GMT > I read a report wherein maggots (loose discription) were used to remove > the dead tissue. > > Is that a herbal remedy, Well, maggots are the larvae of insects. They are not herbs.
>alt med, Hard to say. Conventional medicine has intermittently used them for such purposes.
>or just gross? Well, they are that, but they can be effective.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Orac - 24 Sep 2003 16:49 GMT > >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > >would [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > As dysfunctional as he is, at least Tools practices what he p(r)ea-ches. Then, for his sake, I hope he never develops gangrene, because if he does and tries such things to "cure it," there is a very high probability he will die.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 24 Sep 2003 21:37 GMT > > >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > > >would [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Oh? And how do you know this? How do you KNOW that I do not have a remedy for gangrene?
Orac - 24 Sep 2003 22:06 GMT > > > As dysfunctional as he is, at least Tools practices what he p(r)ea-ches. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Oh? And how do you know this? How do you KNOW that I do not have a remedy > for gangrene? Well, given that you have not described any such remedy for gangrene, other than your claim that you can cure it, let's just say I'm--shall we say?--skeptical. Besides, you're using a logical fallacy. You claim you have a method of curing gangrene without drugs or surgery. It is therefore up to you to prove it. Also, extraordinary claims usually require extraordinary evidence; consequently, your evidence had better be convincing if you expect anyone to buy your story.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Ilsa9 - 25 Sep 2003 01:54 GMT >> > >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, >Orac [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Oh? And how do you know this? How do you KNOW that I do not have a remedy >for gangrene? If it doesn't work any better than your chosen remedies for Stupidity, a.s-Clownery, and Bladder Hostility, then it doesn't work at all.
toolz toolz - 25 Sep 2003 15:03 GMT > >> > >> Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, > >Orac [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > If it doesn't work any better than your chosen remedies for Stupidity, > a.s-Clownery, and Bladder Hostility, then it doesn't work at all. This is your best? Sad.
Carole - 25 Sep 2003 16:49 GMT > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac would > > not get to hurt someone. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > systemic sepsis caused by the bacteria that are busily chowing down on > the dead tissue? It is a little disappointing that Tools chose to get coy about his techniques. However, I'll give my thoughts on the matter.
"Every disease is due to a deficiency of one or another of the cellsalts." --The Biochemic Handbook Going by my own experience of over 25 years, I have no reason to doubt this quote. I would predict that one or other cellsalt, maybe a combination, maybe a different combination for each case, taken in the right quantity would have a definite beneficial effect on gangrene, which is a terrible condition characterised by smelly rotting flesh from what I've seen in movies.
There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up pathological accumulations and remove them from the tissues so they don't harm the surrounding tissues and so on. You'd have to get a book on cellsalts and do some experimenting.
Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/cellsalts.htm
Orac - 25 Sep 2003 22:24 GMT > > > Orac, is wrong. Gangrene may be cured by other methods. But then, Orac > > > would [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > don't harm the surrounding tissues and so on. You'd have to get a book > on cellsalts and do some experimenting. You've got to be kidding. Gangrene is FAR more than just a smelly condition. It's a condition where dead flesh is literally rotting while still attached to the body. "Experimenting" with cell salts to try to cure it would be totally ineffective and unethical to boot, particularly when surgical debridement and antibiotics can do the job, provide the gangrene has not progressed too far.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Eric Bohlman - 25 Sep 2003 23:45 GMT > I would predict that one or other cellsalt, maybe a combination, maybe > a different combination for each case, taken in the right quantity > would have a definite beneficial effect on gangrene, which is a > terrible condition characterised by smelly rotting flesh from what > I've seen in movies. Sigh. You claim the whole world is being manipulated, *and* you admit that at least some of your medical knowledge comes from Hollywood entertainment. The mind boggles.
> There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up > pathological accumulations and remove them from the tissues so they > don't harm the surrounding tissues and so on. You'd have to get a book > on cellsalts and do some experimenting. Gangrene cured with natural deodorants. Film at 11.
What one worries about in gangrene is limb loss and septicemia, *not* unpleasant odors.
Orac - 26 Sep 2003 00:22 GMT > > There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or > > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What one worries about in gangrene is limb loss and septicemia, *not* > unpleasant odors. Indeed. If you have serious gangrene, believe me, the LEAST of your worries is the unpleasant odor.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
D. C. Sessions - 26 Sep 2003 02:35 GMT > There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up > pathological accumulations and remove them from the tissues so they > don't harm the surrounding tissues and so on. You'd have to get a book > on cellsalts and do some experimenting. How often have we been lectured on how scientific medicine only treats the symptoms, but altmed gets to the real causes? So here we have Carole telling us that all you need to know about a disorder is whether it's "smelly."
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end
Orac - 26 Sep 2003 03:24 GMT > > There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or > > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > here we have Carole telling us that all you need to know about > a disorder is whether it's "smelly." And, of course, the blatant hypocrisy of it will escape her.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
D. C. Sessions - 27 Sep 2003 05:21 GMT >> > There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or >> > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And, of course, the blatant hypocrisy of it will escape her. That places blatant hypocrisy in good and plentiful company, no?
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end
Carole - 30 Sep 2003 02:04 GMT > >> > There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or > >> > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > That places blatant hypocrisy in good and plentiful company, no? Just shows how much you lot understand about nature cure. Smelly anything is a symptom, not just a cosmetic situation. The body should smell bad and if it does there is something wrong - not just to be covered up with sweet smelling deodorant. I.e., smelly armpits indicates silica deficiency. The smelly armpits won't make you sick but silica deficiency contributes to all sorts of crippling effects including clogged arteries and arthritis.
You read but you don't understand.
Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/health.htm
Markowski Probertowski - 30 Sep 2003 21:51 GMT > > >> > There are cellsalts which deal with smelly conditions - potassium or > > >> > silica for smelly feet or underarms. Calcium or silica which break up [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You read but you don't understand. Are you discussing beach sand deficiency syndrome?
Carole - 25 Sep 2003 16:27 GMT
> > > One notes that Carole still hasn't produced evidence to support her > > > claim that 90% of chronic ill health is caused by a "toxic colon" or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What specific evidence? Effective in treating what specific conditions? Vitamin C cures scurvy. Cellsalts in treating housedust allergies and asthma.
> > What I will say is that there are nutritional methods for treating > > common complaints that never get mentioned by conventional medicine. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The body is well-equipped to rid itself of the "toxins" caused from > oxidative phosphorylation and other bodily processes. You're talking about the HEALTHY BODY. The DISEASED body is not well equipped to rid itself of toxins because there has been a breakdown in the process and intervention is needed in the form of cellsalts.
> >This is where the normal body processes of digestion > > and cell metabolisation of food, result in waste products - this is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > specific toxin their "treatment" removes. They almost always speak only > vaguely of unspecified "toxins." The cellsalt theory doesn't work by diagnosing an actual disease but by symptoms - disease names are actually irrelevant, its the symptom that is considered. Each deficiency of a cellsalt produces a certain symptom which is then corrected by supplying the missing cellsalt.
"Should a deficiency occur in one or more of these workers, of whom there are twelve, some abnormal condition arises. These abnormal conditions are known by the general term disease, and according as they manifest themselves in different parts of the body, they have been designated by various names. But these names totally fail to express the real trouble. Every disease which afflicts the human race is due to a lack of one or more of these inorganic workers. Every pain or unpleasant sensation indicates a lack of some inorganic constituent of the body. Health and strength can be maintained only so long as the system is properly supplied with these call-salts." --The Biochemic Handbook
Maybe the symptom is itching between the toes for example. It doesn't matter whether it is as a result of a fungus, or eczema. What the itching will be caused by is the skin is eliminating something which the opportunistic fungus will gravitate towards.
> >These waste products are usually > > eliminated through the normal organs of elimination but certain [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > up to you to prove yourself correct. It is also incumbent upon you to > define what the "correct" environment is. I'm not the first person to say this. Back in the 1850s there was a school of thought which said that the cells changed according to the environment they existed in. That germs were only opportunistic scavengers which worked to return the half-dead and dying cells back to nature to be recycled -- like fungus lives on dead rotting wood, or like a dead plant or animal gets recycled back to the earth by micro-organisms which feed on it.
Beauchamp said it, Virchow said it and Pasteur was even said to have said it on his deathbed, that this was the case.
"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat, diseased tissue - rather than being the cause of the diseased tissue." - Rudolph Virchow (1821-1902)
"Bernard was right, the germ is nothing--the milieu [the environment within] is everything." - Louis Pasteur
"Many forms of diagnosis are dependent upon what germ life exists, and its existence in the body usually indicates a bad state of deterioration. Disease germs are nature's undertakers" --Bernard Jenson, The Science and Practise of Iridology
> But if you really want to be proven wrong, I'll start with one condition > that can't be cured by your methods. Severe gangrene is a condition that > no amount of environmental manipulation or nutritional therapies is > going to heal. It needs antibiotics and surgery to either debride the > dead tissue or to amputate the gangrenous limb. Period. My guess is that gangrene could be fixed with cellsalts - probably large doses of calcium, potassium or sodium - maybe some combination of the three in the right dose - would make a difference. Lets face it conventional medicine has got a pathetic record of cure and I think its because its all based on the wrong ideas.
Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/conspiracy.htm
Orac - 25 Sep 2003 16:37 GMT > > > > > One notes that Carole still hasn't produced evidence to support her [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Vitamin C cures scurvy. Oh, please. Scurvy is due to a deficiency in Vitamin C, NOT "autointoxication." Vitamin C as a treatment/preventative for scurvy has been part of "conventional" medicine for a couple of centuries.
>Cellsalts in treating housedust allergies and > asthma. Do you have evidence to back up this assertion?
> > > What I will say is that there are nutritional methods for treating > > > common complaints that never get mentioned by conventional medicine. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > equipped to rid itself of toxins because there has been a breakdown in > the process and intervention is needed in the form of cellsalts. Other than diseases in which organs that dispose of waste fail (such as kidney or liver failure), this is not necessarily true. So, let's start with these basic two kinds of disease, kidney failure or liver failure. Please show evidence that cell salts remove "toxins" and cure these diseases.
We can go into other kinds of diseases later, diseases in which a dysfunctional body part is making toxins, but in these diseases, the "toxins" are usually a consequence of other dysfunction (for instance, gangrene or sepsis or perhaps not enough oxygen). If you don't reverse the dysfunction causing the release of toxins like lactic acid, etc., removing all the "toxins" in the world is not going to "cure" the patient. So show us evidence that your "cell salts" can cure the causative dysfunction in these diseases.
As for many other kinds of diseases, they have nothing to do with "autointoxication."
> > >This is where the normal body processes of digestion > > > and cell metabolisation of food, result in waste products - this is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > by symptoms - disease names are actually irrelevant, its the symptom > that is considered. Oh really? Which specific "toxins" do individual "cell salts" get rid of?
>Each deficiency of a cellsalt produces a certain > symptom which is then corrected by supplying the missing cellsalt. Again, evidence?
[Drivel deleted to get to the real howler by Carole]
> > But if you really want to be proven wrong, I'll start with one condition > > that can't be cured by your methods. Severe gangrene is a condition that > > no amount of environmental manipulation or nutritional therapies is > > going to heal. It needs antibiotics and surgery to either debride the > > dead tissue or to amputate the gangrenous limb. Period. [Here's the howler coming up]
> My guess is that gangrene could be fixed with cellsalts - probably > large doses of calcium, potassium or sodium - maybe some combination > of the three in the right dose - would make a difference. Lets face it > conventional medicine has got a pathetic record of cure and I think > its because its all based on the wrong ideas. ROTLMAO!
I sincerely pray that you never develop gangrene of any body part and decide to try this "cell salt" method to treat it. There would be a high probability that you would end up dead.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Rich Shewmaker - 25 Sep 2003 19:07 GMT --
> > My guess is that gangrene could be fixed with cellsalts - probably > > large doses of calcium, potassium or sodium - maybe some combination [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > decide to try this "cell salt" method to treat it. There would be a high > probability that you would end up dead. Yes, especially if she tried high doses of potassium.
--Rich
David Wright - 26 Sep 2003 15:16 GMT > >> > > One notes that Carole still hasn't produced evidence to support her [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Vitamin C cures scurvy. Cellsalts in treating housedust allergies and >asthma. Treating? Treating? Ha! The constant litany from the AM fantatics is that conventional medicine doesn't want to cure anything, they just want to treat it forever (because that's more profitable). Now we find that you're going to do the same thing with your precious cell salts.
>> > This is where the normal body processes of digestion >> > and cell metabolisation of food, result in waste products - this is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >The cellsalt theory doesn't work by diagnosing an actual disease but That would require actual work and understanding.
>by symptoms - disease names are actually irrelevant, its the symptom >that is considered. Each deficiency of a cellsalt produces a certain >symptom which is then corrected by supplying the missing cellsalt. Oh, so you're just treating symptoms -- like those awful MDs. The alties love to tell us that MDs only treat symptoms, not the underlying disease. And, to make it even more fun, you're saying that a given symptom would always be treated the same way, no matter what the underlying cause (which you can't diagnose or even name) may be. I just love this...
>I'm not the first person to say this. Back in the 1850s there was a >school of thought which said that the cells changed according to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Beauchamp said it, Virchow said it and Pasteur was even said to have >said it on his deathbed, that this was the case. I have not been able to verify the story, however -- I believe it's one of those apocryphal things, like Darwin recanting evolution on his deathbed (he didn't).
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 16:25 GMT Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative Medicine covers a wide range of styles, treatments, beliefes, and schools. Simply lumping all Alternative folks in one pot is quite shortsighted. For example, A herbalist will not support the same diagnosis as a Crystal healer. An acupunturist will likely disagree with a naturopath, etc. And yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and stop looking like an idiot. Thank you.
toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 16:32 GMT PS stuff your spell check.
> Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and > stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. Markus Proberteous - 26 Sep 2003 17:22 GMT > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > others constantly refer to "Altis". Just for clarification, it is Alties.
What you miss is that Alternative
> Medicine covers a wide range of styles, treatments, beliefes, and schools. Just for clarification, it is beliefs.
And, there are no mail order medical degrees, but Hulda has a mail order ND degree.
> Simply lumping all Alternative folks in one pot is quite shortsighted. It is done for convenience.
For
> example, A herbalist will not support the same diagnosis as a Crystal > healer. Thus showing the inherent dangers of going to either.
> An acupunturist will likely disagree with a naturopath, etc. And > yet, you try to say that they are all the same. You just proved it. If they cannot agree on the diagnosis, then they are merely treating the wallet.
Please educate yourself, and
> stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. Well, MedStoolz, you sure do have a way of providing an excellent example.
toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 20:12 GMT Mark, you may bite me.
> > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > > others constantly refer to "Altis". [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Well, MedStoolz, you sure do have a way of providing an excellent example. Markus Proberteous - 26 Sep 2003 20:31 GMT I am sorry, but I have good taste.
> Mark, you may bite me. > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > > Well, MedStoolz, you sure do have a way of providing an excellent example. toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 20:39 GMT > I am sorry, but I have good taste. Exactly the reason you have the opportunity to BITE ME.
> > Mark, you may bite me. Marko Proberto - 26 Sep 2003 20:52 GMT > > I am sorry, but I have good taste. > > > Exactly the reason you have the opportunity to BITE ME. You are not Charlie Tuna.
> > > Mark, you may bite me. Peter Bowditch - 27 Sep 2003 00:03 GMT >And, there are no mail order medical degrees, but Hulda has a mail order ND >degree. You can get a mail order MD from the University of Antigua. It costs lots of money, and is being used by chiropractors and others to add "MD" to their business cards. You have to do some clinical practice to graduate, but you get to choose someone to be a mentor for this yourself. The degrees do not qualify the holder to practice medicine in most civilised places.
One famous graduate is Devi S. Nambudripad, inventor of the NAET scam.
-- Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Markowitz Probertowitz - 27 Sep 2003 16:19 GMT > >And, there are no mail order medical degrees, but Hulda has a mail order ND > >degree. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > One famous graduate is Devi S. Nambudripad, inventor of the NAET scam. Thanks, I was not aware of this.
Perhaps Spammin' Scammin' Dave should get a mail order degree in MLMing.
Orac - 26 Sep 2003 18:03 GMT > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and > stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. But doesn't the very fact that different "flavors" of alties will come up with different diagnoses (sometimes radically) for the same set of symptoms and findings make you wonder about the validity of these disciplines?
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Ilsa9 - 26 Sep 2003 19:38 GMT >> Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few >> others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >symptoms and findings make you wonder about the validity of these >disciplines?
>> Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few >> others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >symptoms and findings make you wonder about the validity of these >disciplines? Despite Med(S)tools advocacy, one should consider Acupuncture (TCM, actually) preeminent amongst such systems. It has an extensive pathology system along with a high degree of internal validity and interratability. Of course, one may well dispute the external validity and value of a system based on representational models, but at least it has foregoing factors in its favor.
To paraphrase Michael Myers (from SNL, not Halloween) If its not TCM, its (probably) Crap!
toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 20:16 GMT > >> Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > >> others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >-- > >Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." If TCM, allows one such as ilsa to participate, then TCM is very suspect. Ilsa, when does your pass from the institution you live in run out?
Jan - 27 Sep 2003 00:05 GMT >Subject: Re: David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion >From: "toolz toolz" medtools2@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >If TCM, allows one such as ilsa to participate, then TCM is very suspect. >Ilsa, when does your pass from the institution you live in run out? LOLOLOL!!!!!
Jan
Ilsa9 - 28 Sep 2003 03:44 GMT <snip for bandwidth>
>If TCM, allows one such as ilsa to participate, then TCM is very suspect. TCM does not discriminate. All are welcome, provided that they have a bona-fide complaint and it is not more appropriately treated by Mainstream medicine. Bigotry is a component of many alt-belief systems, but not among the functional ones, such as TCM.
>Ilsa, when does your pass from the institution you live in run out? Tools, you need to rephrase that and put it to your attending physician.
toolz toolz - 28 Sep 2003 13:42 GMT > <snip for bandwidth> > > >If TCM, allows one such as ilsa to participate, then TCM is very suspect. > > TCM does not discriminate. All are welcome, even if they are too stupid to come in from the rain, like ilsa. provided that they have a
> bona-fide complaint and it is not more appropriately treated by Mainstream > medicine. You are one strange bird, first you blather about TCM, giving it a bad name. And then you drop to your knees as soon as the "doctor" walks in.
> >Ilsa, when does your pass from the institution you live in run out? Ilsa9 - 28 Sep 2003 20:35 GMT David Leak <Med(S)tools wrote from his parents' basement:
>> <snip for bandwidth> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> bona-fide complaint and it is not more appropriately treated by Mainstream >> medicine.
>You are one strange bird, first you blather about TCM, giving it a bad name. >And then you drop to your knees as soon as the "doctor" walks in. Perhaps you fantasize about more than a 30 minute prostate exam, but keep your unfullfilled urges out of this thread.
You seem to believe that somehow, someway, there is never a condition or situation wherein Mainstream medicine is not the most appropriate choice. That, along with your personality disorders and bizarre compulsions, defines you as a catagory 4 a.s-Clown.
BTW, I'm merely a consumer and advocate of TCM. Perhaps you have confused me with a licensed Zhenjuologist of some great repute.
Now, revert to your semi-literate, clown persona to draft your reply. Do NOT forget, I order you to do so and to speak out _Against_ TCM.
>> >Ilsa, when does your pass from the institution you live in run out? toolz toolz - 28 Sep 2003 22:42 GMT > David Leak <Med(SO)tools wrote from his parents' basement: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Perhaps you fantasize about more than a 30 minute prostate exam, but keep your > unfullfilled SPELL CHECK urges out of this thread.
> You seem to believe that somehow, someway, there is never a condition or > situation wherein Mainstream medicine is not the most appropriate choice. You seem to have a reading problem. Please post where I said such.
> That, along with your personality disorders and bizarre compulsions, defines > you as a catagory 4 a.s-Clown. Your mommy told you to not look in a mirror while typing.
> BTW, I'm merely a consumer and advocate of TCM. Apparently, TCM cannot help with being a rosy red a.shole.
Perhaps you have confused me
> with a licensed Zhenjuologist Oh dear, now you start with fancy words that you saw in a magazine yesterday.
of some great repute.
> Now, revert to your semi-literate, clown persona to draft your reply. Do NOT > forget, I order you to do so and to speak out _Against_ TCM. OK, TCM tm. has some great idiots who support it. This is one of the most disturbing things about it. For example, apparently a practitioner of TCM tm. allowed a clearly deranged and nasty person calling themselves ilsa9, to leave their office. When this person clearly should have been escorted to the nearest state hospital for the criminally insane, and permanently kept. So, their IS something wrong with TCM tm., Somewhere there is a practitioner of TCM tm., that cares not for the public good.
> >> >Ilsa, when does your pass from the institution you live in run out? Ilsa9 - 29 Sep 2003 20:12 GMT David Leak <Med(S)tools wrote from his parents' basement in Austin Tx:
>Apparently, TCM cannot help with being a rosy red a.shole. It has obviously failed you as you have failed so many of life's tests.
You are the weakest leak, uh, link. Bye, bye!
Dave - 26 Sep 2003 20:27 GMT > >> Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > >> others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >and > >> stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. As an "altie" with considerable personal experience, I would say that this assertion is somewhere between unlikely and silly. This person has no more understanding than the person she is berating. First, an herbolist is someone who can grow herbs and can make potions, they don't diagnose conditions. A crystal healer is an intuitive healer who can "see" a persons true condition. An acupuncturist diagnoses by sight, smell and conversation as does a naturopath. On the other hand many acupuncturists and naturopaths use iridology or blood microscopy to diagnose conditions more accurately. On the bottom line they all should arrive at a common course of action. It should be noted that alternative medicine treats system deficiencies not specific disesases.
> >But doesn't the very fact that different "flavors" of alties will come > >up with different diagnoses (sometimes radically) for the same set of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > To paraphrase Michael Myers (from SNL, not Halloween) If its not TCM, its > (probably) Crap! toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 20:12 GMT > > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > > others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > symptoms and findings make you wonder about the validity of these > disciplines? Some of them yes. Though, conv. seems to have the same situation.
> -- > Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." > | > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Orac - 26 Sep 2003 23:03 GMT > > > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > > > others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > disciplines? > Some of them yes. Though, conv. seems to have the same situation. Not quite. Certainly there are controversies about how best to treat individual diseases. That is to be expected as medical advances are made. In contrast to "alternative medicine, for most diseases, in conventional medicine there is not significant disagreement about what symptom complex and objective findings on laboratory tests, radiologic studies, and other studies are diagnostic of the disease. That's the difference.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 28 Sep 2003 02:56 GMT > > > > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > > > > others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" As long as the goal of "helping the person get better, or a cure", is accomplished, I'm happy.
David Wright - 26 Sep 2003 18:11 GMT >Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few >others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative >Medicine covers a wide range of styles, treatments, beliefes, and >schools. On the contrary, I and others are quite aware of this. However, they tend to converge in their condemnations of conventional medicine. Of course they diverge in their diagnoses and treatments.
>Simply lumping all Alternative folks in one pot is quite shortsighted. For >example, A herbalist will not support the same diagnosis as a Crystal >healer. An acupunturist will likely disagree with a naturopath, etc. And >yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and >stop looking like an idiot. Follow your own advice, bub. You *need* it. And it doesn't bother you at all that these different alt folks come up with such radically different diagnoses?
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Ilsa9 - 26 Sep 2003 19:27 GMT Mr(?) Med(S)tools,
If you truly believe in or care about Chinese medicine, do not mention it ever again, except to criticize it. Your advocacy of it (or anything else) is hazardous to its credibility.
You may now revert into your semi-literate, clown persona to draft your reply.
>Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few >others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and >stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. toolz toolz - 26 Sep 2003 20:16 GMT > Mr(?) Med(S)tools, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and > >stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. You, ilsa / other name. May bite me. YOU are an embarrassment to Chinese Medicine, and any other brand. You, if you are involved in Chinese Medicine, are a danger to the public. You need extensive treatment, please get it. As for your "request", once again, BITE ME.
Orac - 26 Sep 2003 23:04 GMT > You, ilsa / other name. May bite me. YOU are an embarrassment to Chinese > Medicine, and any other brand. You, if you are involved in Chinese Medicine, > are a danger to the public. You need extensive treatment, please get it. As > for your "request", once again, BITE ME. Ah, yet another brilliant, erudite comeback from the pee-drinker.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
toolz toolz - 28 Sep 2003 02:56 GMT > > You, ilsa / other name. May bite me. YOU are an embarrassment to Chinese > > Medicine, and any other brand. You, if you are involved in Chinese Medicine, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Please explain how "brilliant" comebacks have anything to do with helping folks ?
Orac - 28 Sep 2003 03:43 GMT > > > for your "request", once again, BITE ME. > > > > Ah, yet another brilliant, erudite comeback from the pee-drinker. > > Please explain how "brilliant" comebacks have anything to do with helping > folks ? Please explain how pee drinking has anything to do with helping folks?
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Ilsa9 - 28 Sep 2003 04:03 GMT >> > > for your "request", once again, BITE ME. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Please explain how pee drinking has anything to do with helping folks? Med(S)tools believes that pee-ple are pee-deficient because they excrete rather than retain this "precious" fluid.
toolz toolz - 28 Sep 2003 13:42 GMT > >> > > for your "request", once again, BITE ME. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Med(S)tools believes that pee-ple are pee-deficient because they excrete rather > than retain this "precious" fluid. No he does not. He believes that ilsa should be put back in the institution before ilsa hurts anyone else. Ilsa, where did you put the body anyway?.
toolz toolz - 28 Sep 2003 13:42 GMT > > > > for your "request", once again, BITE ME. > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Please explain how pee drinking has anything to do with helping folks? Please explain how much research you have done on Urine Therapy. AND, where did you publish, and under what name?
> -- > Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." > | > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" Orac - 28 Sep 2003 17:36 GMT > > > > > for your "request", once again, BITE ME. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Please explain how much research you have done on Urine Therapy. AND, where > did you publish, and under what name? I don't have to do research on urine therapy to know it's a crock. All I need is the knowledge of biology, physiology, and medicine I've acquired over the years. As for publications, well, maybe if you're a nice boy I'll send you PDF files of a few of them.
 Signature Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?"
Ilsa9 - 28 Sep 2003 03:46 GMT >> You, ilsa / other name. May bite me. YOU are an embarrassment to Chinese >> Medicine, and any other brand. You, if you are involved in Chinese [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Ah, yet another brilliant, erudite comeback from the pee-drinker. Yeah, but at least he complied with _one_ of my direct orders. ("You may now revert into your semi-literate, clown persona to draft your reply.")
D. C. Sessions - 27 Sep 2003 05:24 GMT > Dear Mr. Wright, You seem to be terrably under-educated. You and a few > others constantly refer to "Altis". What you miss is that Alternative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yet, you try to say that they are all the same. Please educate yourself, and > stop looking like an idiot. Thank you. And yet none of them are wrong. None of them will say a word critisizing the others, and despite complete disagreement on the fundamental nature of the problem they (and especially their cheering squad here) insist that they treat the "true causes" of disease, in contrast to scientific medicine.
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end
Jan - 29 Sep 2003 00:23 GMT >Subject: Re: Fruit vs the root.... >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >heavy stock (card stock would be good). Crumple the printouts up >until they are corners everywhere. Then shove them up your a.s. This qualifies for David Wright's Intelligent Additions To Discussion.
Jan
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