Medical Forum / General / Alternative / November 2009
Physicians and health professionals are now speaking out clearly of the risks and dangers of vaccination.
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john - 03 Nov 2009 11:42 GMT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now speaking out clearly of the risks and dangers of vaccination. We have tip toed around the American Medical model long enough. Vaccines come with a great risk including juvenile diabetes, asthma, ADD, ADHD, and Autism. And never mind the more subtle injury of teenagers who can't focus and are depressed.
PeterB - Original - 03 Nov 2009 21:23 GMT > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Autism. And never mind the more subtle injury of teenagers who can't focus > and are depressed. When my cousin was killed by vaccine some years ago, the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas beyond medicine. Thanks for the link.
Martin - 03 Nov 2009 22:09 GMT >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE >> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >When my cousin was killed by vaccine some years ago, Got any proof your cousin was killed by a vaccine?
> the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. PeterB - Original - 04 Nov 2009 01:00 GMT > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Got any proof your cousin was killed by a vaccine? I don't. My mother was very young (she was there with her niece) and lawsuits in those days were rare. Alanna was perfectly well going into the facility, perfectly dead an hour after vaccination.
> > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 01:34 GMT > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > lawsuits in those days were rare. Alanna was perfectly well going > into the facility, perfectly dead an hour after vaccination. What year are you talking about? Sounds like the pre-1950's.
> > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. PeterB - Original - 04 Nov 2009 02:02 GMT > > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > What year are you talking about? Sounds like the pre-1950's. I will not provide personal information about my family to those who distort the truth on behalf of their sponsors. That means you.
> > > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Martin - 04 Nov 2009 09:17 GMT >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I will not provide personal information about my family to those who >distort the truth on behalf of their sponsors. That means you. Ok, I'm sorry about my previous post. You are a hypocrite. Other people must meet an easonable burden of proof, sometimes even immoral, in the case of a placebo controlled trial with vaccines, while you yourself OTOH can make the most serious accusations and claims without even providing the tiniest shred of proof. So for now, I'm even calling the existence of said cousin in question. It's that biologically, you must have a mother, or else I'd doubt that as well. Say bye to the little bit of credibility you had left.
>> > > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by >> > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >> > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 01:38 GMT Once again, Martin Rady proves himself to be a hypocrite.
Wonder why he never asks his gang members for proof of their anecdotes??
> <p...@mytrashmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Ok, I'm sorry about my previous post. You are a hypocrite. Other > people must meet an easonable Whatever *esasonable* is.....
burden of proof, sometimes even immoral,
> in the case of a placebo controlled trial with vaccines, while you > yourself OTOH can make the most serious accusations and claims without > even providing the tiniest shred of proof. So for now, I'm even > calling the existence of said cousin in question. It's that > biologically, you must have a mother, Duh, everyone has a mother.
or else I'd doubt that as well.
> Say bye to the little bit of credibility you had left. You have never had any.
> >> > > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > >> > > >government. �Those days are over. �This lesson also extends to areas [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Mark Probert - 05 Nov 2009 02:11 GMT > Once again, Martin Rady proves himself to be a hypocrite. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > You have never had any. Wrong,. YOU never had any. And, you never will
t - 05 Nov 2009 13:29 GMT On Nov 4, 8:38 pm, Jan Drew <jdrew63...@aol.com> wrote:
> Once again, Martin Rady proves himself to be a hypocrite. > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > You have never had any. PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 01:52 GMT > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:02:36 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > claims without > even providing the tiniest shred of proof. Science is about the quality of the evidence, not "proof." My cousin's death is an anecdote, not evidence. In any public forum, personal histories may be offered, but none of us knows if the personal stories we read about in the newsgroups are true. My views on vaccine were not formed *because* of my cousin's death, as I only learned of the details quite recently.
> So for now, I'm even > calling the existence of said cousin in question. I suppose I should care that someone who lies about me routinely is calling anything I say into question. Still, you have every right to question what I say. My views on vaccine are based on the available science, nothing else.
> It's that > biologically, you must have a mother, or else I'd doubt that as well. > Say bye to the little bit of credibility you had left. Go back to sleep marty.
> >> > > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > >> > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > >> > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Peter Bowditch - 05 Nov 2009 00:13 GMT >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I will not provide personal information about my family to those who >distort the truth on behalf of their sponsors. That means you. Translation: I was lying.
>> > > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by >> > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >> > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 02:24 GMT > >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Translation: I was lying. I have no reason to lie about the circumstances of my cousin's death. My argument against vaccine is based on the available science, not personal or family history. The fact I am convinced that she died as a result of vaccination, however, is relevant to the topic when posting about it.
> >> > > > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > >> > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > >> > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Peter B-Aboriginal - 06 Nov 2009 02:43 GMT On Nov 4, 7:13 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
> PeterB - Original <p...@mytrashmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Translation: I was lying. I have no reason to lie about the circumstances of my cousin's death. My argument against vaccine is based on the available science, not personal or family history. The fact I am convinced that she died as a result of vaccination, however, is relevant to the topic when posting about it. ================================================ What? You blatantly contradict yourself here.
Your cousins death had no scientific cause, your "being convinced" has no scientific merit, no basis, just an idiots reasoning. Lie of truth matters little to you since she is dead, but is kept alive by your opinion.
PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 03:16 GMT > On Nov 4, 7:13 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > ================================================ > What? You blatantly contradict yourself here. There is no contradiction, none at all.
> Your cousins death had no scientific cause... There is always a cause of death. The fact she was healthy prior to vaccination and dead minutes afterward makes the link to vaccine highly probable.
> , your "being convinced" has > no scientific merit... It doesn't have to. The available science shows that vaccine has not accomplished what its proponents believe, nor is it proven safe.
> , no basis, just an idiots reasoning. Personal attack noted.
> Lie of truth > matters little to you since she is dead, but is kept alive by your > opinion. She deserves to be remembered. You deserve to be forgotten.
Peter B-Aboriginal - 06 Nov 2009 04:46 GMT On Nov 5, 9:43 pm, "Peter B-Aboriginal" <origin...@i-frag.com> wrote:
> "PeterB - Original" <p...@mytrashmail.com> wrote in > messagenews:9f3368e1-3cf1-424b-85f9-bc0fe73a7d5e@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > ================================================ > What? You blatantly contradict yourself here. There is no contradiction, none at all.
> Your cousins death had no scientific cause... There is always a cause of death. The fact she was healthy prior to vaccination and dead minutes afterward makes the link to vaccine highly probable. =============================================== The link to H2O is more significant as she had more of that. And as to "minutes" afterwards, lol. You do not know that, not at all.
> , your "being convinced" has > no scientific merit... It doesn't have to. The available science shows that vaccine has not accomplished what its proponents believe, nor is it proven safe.
> , no basis, just an idiots reasoning. Personal attack noted. ================================================== Sheesh, you are an idiot, reasoning. It was a description pure and simple. Her death might have been caused by the stabbing of a voodoo doll for all you know.
> Lie of truth > matters little to you since she is dead, but is kept alive by your > opinion. She deserves to be remembered. You deserve to be forgotten. ==================================================== For what reason? An untimely passing?
You keep bringing her up and exhibit her in your posts as "just cause" for your reasoning. She is your straw doll, nothing more.
PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 05:35 GMT > > What? You blatantly contradict yourself here. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > =============================================== > The link to H2O is more significant as she had more of that. She drank water every day. She did not receive vaccine every day.
> as to "minutes" afterwards, lol. You do not know that, not at all. She died the same morning as her vaccination and did not leave the clinic. My mother was emphatic about that.
> > , your "being convinced" has > > no scientific merit... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ================================================== > Sheesh, you are an idiot, reasoning. When calling someone else an idiot, you may want to write in complete sentences. Perhaps you should consider a newsgroup devoted to your particular set of skills. Let us know when you find out what they are.
> It was a description pure and > simple. Her death might have been caused by the stabbing of a voodoo [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ==================================================== > For what reason? An untimely passing? Note the topic of the thread, dipshit: "...the risks and dangers of vaccination."
> You keep bringing her up and exhibit her in your posts as "just > cause" for your reasoning. She is your straw doll, nothing more. I talk about her up to show that real people are harmed by the false claims of vaccine apologists and idiot pharmnuts like yourself. To date, you have demonstrated zero knowledge of this subject or any other. I predict you never will.
Jan Drew - 06 Nov 2009 07:46 GMT Jan Drew - 06 Nov 2009 07:40 GMT Peter Bowditch - 06 Nov 2009 03:09 GMT >> >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >she died as a result of vaccination, however, is relevant to the topic >when posting about it. Then stop posting about it.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 04:49 GMT > >> >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Then stop posting about it. Let us know when you learn how to read.
Jan Drew - 06 Nov 2009 07:43 GMT > >> >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Then stop posting about it. Shut up itch.
People are free to post anything here except lies and spam.
That is you. Get over your control problem old man,
> -- > Peter Bowditch Peter Bowditch - 06 Nov 2009 21:18 GMT >People are free to post anything here except lies and spam. Does that mean that you will never again say that something is off-topic?
>That is you. Get over your control problem old man, I'm just off to eBay to look for a new irony meter.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Citizen Jimserac - 06 Nov 2009 23:07 GMT > >People are free to post anything here except lies and spam. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Australian Council Against Health Fraudhttp://www.acahf.org.au > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com Bowdie!!!!!!
Good to hear from you!
You know how you are always mentioning the importance of scientific testing to verify that Homeopathy works?
Well, I have some rather disturbing news for you.
You had better sit down before reading onwards.
It seems that the scientific verification of the flu vaccines and certain well known flu remedies, has been rather lacking and that some scientists and officials apparently are accepting their efficacy ON FAITH!!!
I knew you would agree with me that the idea of Homeopathic Osciloococinum (or however you spell the crazy thing) which is in the Cochrane database as good for limiting the duration and severity of the flu (but not for preventing it) as being as good as, or BETTER than relenza or the other flu remedy is startling to say the least.
From THIS article in the Atlantic Monthly http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200911/brownlee-h1n1?utm_source=getresponse &utm_medium=email&utm_content=The%20Many%20Dangers%20of%20the%20Swine%20Flu%20Sc are&utm_campaign=homeopathyzone
by Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer Does the Vaccine Matter?
There is, to quote from the article, THIS curious set of anomalies in which people were, in effect, without vaccination protection for the then prevalent virus and yet, SURPRISE!!!! there was NO SPIKE IN THE MORTALITY rate. Here, read for yourself (quoted from the article)
"THE HISTORY OF FLU VACCINATION suggests other reasons to doubt claims that it dramatically reduces mortality. In 2004, for example, vaccine production fell behind, causing a 40 percent drop in immunization rates. Yet mortality did not rise. In addition, vaccine “mismatches” occurred in 1968 and 1997: in both years, the vaccine that had been produced in the summer protected against one set of viruses, but come winter, a different set was circulating. In effect, nobody was vaccinated. Yet death rates from all causes, including flu and the various illnesses it can exacerbate, did not budge." (quoted from the article "Does the Vaccine Matter?" by Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer)
I do know that a tremendously scientific chap, like yourself old Bowdie, will, upon verifying these very curious anomalies, probably want to add a web page or two to your excellent site in which you EXPOSE THE QUACKERY of allowing large populations to rely for "safety" on unproven injections whose efficacy it is is "politically incorrect" to challenge and whose testing, unlike Homeopathy, has been avoided for what could only be seen as reasons of political expediency.
I look forward to seeing an exposure of this particular quackpotty woo on your site, keep up the good work Bowdie.
Yours Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 07 Nov 2009 02:32 GMT >> >People are free to post anything here except lies and spam. >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >scientists and officials apparently are accepting their efficacy ON >FAITH!!! So what?
>I knew you would agree with me that the idea of Homeopathic >Osciloococinum (or however you spell the crazy thing) which is in the >Cochrane database as good for limiting the duration and severity of >the flu (but not for preventing it) as being as good as, or BETTER >than relenza or the other flu remedy is startling to say the least. Did you think I wasn't aware of the duck liver fraud? I've found that when people start telling me about the wonders of homeopathy a useful remedy is to tell them about the duck. I've found that even small children fall about laughing when I ask if they believe that all the flu medicine in the world can be made from just one duck. When I tell them that a major "medicine" company in France makes many millions of dollars a year by selling just one duck over and over again they laugh even louder and ask me if I made up the joke myself or heard it somewhere else.
200C duck liver! Priceless!
>From THIS article in the Atlantic Monthly >http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200911/brownlee-h1n1?utm_source=getresponse &utm_medium=email&utm_content=The%20Many%20Dangers%20of%20the%20Swine%20Flu%20Sc are&utm_campaign=homeopathyzone > >by Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer >Does the Vaccine Matter? Got anything from a medical journal, not written by hack journalists?
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:27 GMT - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -
> Jan Drew <jdrew63...@aol.com> wrote: > >People are free to post anything here except lies and spam.
> Does that mean that you will never again say that something is > off-topic?
> >That is you. Get over your control problem old man,
> I'm just off to eBay to look for a new irony meter.
> -- > Peter Bowditch aa #2243 > The Millenium Projecthttp://www.ratbags.com/rsoles > Australian Council Against Health Fraudhttp://www.acahf.org.au > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com Bowdie!!!!!!
Good to hear from you!
You know how you are always mentioning the importance of scientific testing to verify that Homeopathy works?
Well, I have some rather disturbing news for you.
You had better sit down before reading onwards.
It seems that the scientific verification of the flu vaccines and certain well known flu remedies, has been rather lacking and that some scientists and officials apparently are accepting their efficacy ON FAITH!!!
I knew you would agree with me that the idea of Homeopathic Osciloococinum (or however you spell the crazy thing) which is in the Cochrane database as good for limiting the duration and severity of the flu (but not for preventing it) as being as good as, or BETTER than relenza or the other flu remedy is startling to say the least.
From THIS article in the Atlantic Monthly http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200911/brownlee-h1n1?utm_source=...
by Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer Does the Vaccine Matter?
There is, to quote from the article, THIS curious set of anomalies in which people were, in effect, without vaccination protection for the then prevalent virus and yet, SURPRISE!!!! there was NO SPIKE IN THE MORTALITY rate. Here, read for yourself (quoted from the article)
"THE HISTORY OF FLU VACCINATION suggests other reasons to doubt claims that it dramatically reduces mortality. In 2004, for example, vaccine production fell behind, causing a 40 percent drop in immunization rates. Yet mortality did not rise. In addition, vaccine “mismatches” occurred in 1968 and 1997: in both years, the vaccine that had been produced in the summer protected against one set of viruses, but come winter, a different set was circulating. In effect, nobody was vaccinated. Yet death rates from all causes, including flu and the various illnesses it can exacerbate, did not budge." (quoted from the article "Does the Vaccine Matter?" by Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer)
I do know that a tremendously scientific chap, like yourself old Bowdie, will, upon verifying these very curious anomalies, probably want to add a web page or two to your excellent site in which you EXPOSE THE QUACKERY of allowing large populations to rely for "safety" on unproven injections whose efficacy it is is "politically incorrect" to challenge and whose testing, unlike Homeopathy, has been avoided for what could only be seen as reasons of political expediency.
I look forward to seeing an exposure of this particular quackpotty woo on your site, keep up the good work Bowdie.
Yours Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 07 Nov 2009 16:55 GMT > CitizenJimserac<jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >People are free to post anything here except lies and spam. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > 200C duck liver! Priceless! Then you'd better DUCK the highly esteemed Cochrane database in which the test for Oscilococcinum indicates efficacy above placebo for reducing the severity AND duration of the flu) http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001957.html
and...
Rabe, M. Weiser, P. Klein, Effectiveness and tolerability of a homoeopathic remedy compared with conventional therapy for mild viral infections. Int J Clin Pract. 2004 Sep;58(9):827-32.
> Got anything from a medical journal, not written by hack journalists? See the above for yourself, sketpic Bowdie......
Returning to the main discussion.... (quote from the Atlantic Monthly article questioning the usefulness of the Flu Vaccine follows:) "In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all. Jackson’s papers “are beautiful,” says Lone Simonsen, who is a professor of global health at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., and an internationally recognized expert in influenza and vaccine epidemiology. “They are classic studies in epidemiology, they are so carefully done.”" (quoted from "DOES THE VACCINE MATTER?" by Brownlee and Lenzer, Atlantic Monthly magazine).
Continue reading to see what journal published the study....
I will repeat that comment, from the University Professor of Global Health, for the benefit of "skeptic" Bowdie: "They are classic studies in epidemiology they are so carefully done".
And...
"The results were also so unexpected that many experts simply refused to believe them. Jackson’s papers were turned down for publication in the top-ranked medical journals. One flu expert who reviewed her studies for the Journal of the American Medical Association wrote, “To accept these results would be to say that the earth is flat!” When the papers were finally published in 2006, in the less prominent International Journal of Epidemiology, they were largely ignored by doctors and public-health officials." (quoted from "DOES THE VACCINE MATTER?" by Brownlee and Lenzer, Atlantic Monthly magazine)
"...they were largely ignored by doctors and public-health officials" AND BY SKEPTIC BOWDIE, WHO GOES ON THE WAR PATH AGAINST HOMEOPATHY AT THE SLIGHTEST WHIFF OF INSUFFICIENT TESTING (AND CORRECTLY SO IN MY OPINION), BUT SOMEHOW..... LOOKS THE OTHER WAY WHEN THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN ONE OF HIS FAVORITE "STANDARD" MEDICAL TREATMENTS.
AND THIS is the double standard about which I have spoken many times, clearly evidenced.
Again, Bowdie, you have NOT ADDRESSED another major defect in the publicity touting the flu vaccines, namely THIS:
"The history of flu vaccination suggests other reasons to doubt claims that it dramatically reduces mortality. In 2004, for example, vaccine production fell behind, causing a 40 percent drop in immunization rates. Yet mortality did not rise."
I will repeat that for BOWDIE - "Yet mortality did not rise".
How very very interesting! Why not? If the flu vaccines are indeed working, and there was 40% drop in the number of people getting "immunized" (sic) [the reader will note my interpolation of the Latin "sic" here, yes, it could be considered a pun but in fact refers to my personal objection of utilizing the word "immunization" with regard to the flu vaccine because against all types of the virus one is most certainly NOT immunized.
Although I do NOT agree with everything John has posted, the assertion that there has NOT REALLY BEEN any real definitive testing of the flu vaccines can be seen in a new light on the basis of the Atlantic Monthly article, which describes the experiences of researchers who, after careful research, came up with the politically incorrect conclusion that the flu vaccines are not as "useful" as they have been made out to be.
What will it be SKEPTIC BOWDIE? Science or presumption? I am absolutely certain that Bowdie, being a devotee of "science' will not for one moment tolerate vaccination testing woo.
Therefore, I Am looking forward to the expose' of the flu vaccine testing inadequacies at your excellent(!?) web site!
Keep up the good work, skeptic Bowdie, you are an inspiration to al... er, to most of us!
Citizen Jimserac (Aside to MolluscMensch, am greatly missing your postings, many thanks for numerous interesting links, sorry about your misconception of R. Steiner and the Antrhoposophists.)
Peter Bowditch - 07 Nov 2009 21:59 GMT >> CitizenJimserac<jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >People are free to post anything here except lies and spam. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >for reducing the severity AND duration of the flu) >http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001957.html http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD001957/frame.html
Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes
The editorial group responsible for this previously published document have withdrawn it from publication.
Reason for withdrawal
This review was withdrawn from The Cochrane Library, Issue 3, 2009 as the authors were unable to update it. The review will be updated by a new team of authors.
I guess that says it all. It now has a homeopathic existence in the Cochrane Library, so further reference to it or citing it will mean nothing.
<snip faith in the impossible>
200C duck liver!! What a joke.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:14 GMT People are free to post anything here except liesandspam.
That is you. �Get over your control problem old man.
Martin - 07 Nov 2009 08:50 GMT >>People are free to post anything here except lies and spam. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I'm just off to eBay to look for a new irony meter. I have a confession to make. I actually do make money of posting on usenet, but not by sponsoring from Big Pharma as PeterB thinks. You see, I'm the world's leading manufacturer of irony meters and you are among my best customers, together with Jesus and Mo.
Martin - 06 Nov 2009 17:05 GMT >> >> > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >death. My argument against vaccine is based on the available >science, There is no science against the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Lying seems to be a habit for you.
> not personal or family history. The fact I am convinced that >she died as a result of vaccination, however, is relevant to the topic [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >> >> > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 23:51 GMT > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:24:08 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > There is no science against the safety and efficacy of vaccines. > Lying seems to be a habit for you. Unlike you, marty, I cite my sources. The published science shows that vaccine has not had the impact on public health its proponents believe. [ref. "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehold, pg 43.] At least as important, in the absence of proper study demonstrating vaccine safety, there is no way to measure population- wide health outcomes using vaccine.
> > not personal or family history. The fact I am convinced that > >she died as a result of vaccination, however, is relevant to the topic [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> >> > > >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > >> >> > > >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:01 GMT http://www.myspace.com/mrady66
Martin - 04 Nov 2009 09:14 GMT >> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >lawsuits in those days were rare. Alanna was perfectly well going >into the facility, perfectly dead an hour after vaccination. So, without proof. That makes it a baseless claim. And since you are not a hypocrite and hold yourself to the same high standards you hold others, you will not ever mention this claim again, right?
>> > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by >> >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >> >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 01:14 GMT > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:00:46 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > are not a hypocrite and hold yourself to the same high standards > you hold others, you will not ever mention this claim again, right? I never said her death was not anecdotal. I never said I could prove exactly how it happened. I tell the story because it affected my mother so deeply and the association to vaccine was marked. I may remind others that *their* stories are anecdotal and therefore unproven. Everyone here is free to recount their personal histories as they wish, and I've never said they shouldn't.
> >> > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by > >> >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > >> >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Martin - 06 Nov 2009 17:03 GMT >> <p...@mytrashmail.com> wrote: >> >> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:29 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >remind others that *their* stories are anecdotal and therefore >unproven. The point is, that is not what you do. You demand, with a very agressive tone, unreasonable evidence for anything other people say and at the same time, YOU get to decide what is evidence and what is not. Your demand for instance that you want a randomized placebo controlled trial for vaccinations for instance shows that you neither understand what constitutes evidence in medicine nor anything about morals. Yes Petey, witholding vaccines from people is immoral.
So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding your cousing, I say you made it up out of whole cloth.
> Everyone here is free to recount their personal histories >as they wish, and I've never said they shouldn't. Strawman time again.
>> >> > the public still believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by >> >> >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >> >> >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. PeterB - Original - 07 Nov 2009 00:31 GMT > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:14:04 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > say and at the same time, YOU get to decide what is evidence and > what is not. There is no such thing as "unreasonable evidence." You either have it or you don't. I produce the published science supporting my position on the issues and I expect others to do the same. If you can't do that, your claims are baseless.
> Your demand for instance that you want a randomized > placebo controlled trial for vaccinations for instance shows that > you neither understand what constitutes evidence in medicine nor > anything about morals. Yes Petey, witholding vaccines from > people is immoral. Ethical medicine requires that the intervention must first do no harm. When there is no evidence that a medical intervention is safe, using it is immoral.
> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding your > cousin, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. Do your pharmnut thing. I'm not here to stop you.
> > Everyone here is free to recount their personal histories > >as they wish, and I've never said they shouldn't. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> >> >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > >> >> >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Martin - 07 Nov 2009 08:56 GMT >> >> So, without proof. That makes it a baseless claim. And since >> >> you are not a hypocrite and hold yourself to the same high [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >There is no such thing as "unreasonable evidence." You either have it >or you don't. I produce the published science supporting my position No, you don't.There is no science supporting your position. There are only claims made by clueless twits and frauds.
>on the issues and I expect others to do the same. If you can't do >that, your claims are baseless. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >harm. When there is no evidence that a medical intervention is safe, >using it is immoral. Well, that means vaccines are not immoral.
>> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding your >> cousin, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. > >Do your pharmnut thing. I'm not here to stop you. Oh, then why are you here? Oh yes, I forgot, to push supplements on behalf of your employers. Tell me Petey, I hear the economy is picking up again. Will you be getting a real job again soon, so you'll no longer need the income from posting here? I haven't failed to notice you disappeared when the economy was doing great and reappeared when unemployment had gone up. The pattern is unmistakable.
>> > Everyone here is free to recount their personal histories >> >as they wish, and I've never said they shouldn't. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> >> >government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas >> >> >> >beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. PeterB - Original - 07 Nov 2009 16:48 GMT > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:31:23 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > No, you don't.There is no science supporting your position. You mean there is no science you understand or grasp. I realize you and your sponsors have to operate at the margins, but that's not my problem. Here is a re-post of my earlier synopsis on vaccine:
Infectious disease mortality declined dramatically prior to availability of most vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole and R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, of the decline in disease-related mortality from 1900 to 1975 could be attributed to measures introduced for the control of these diseases. This means that vaccine may have accounted for only 1% of the dramatic decline in disease-related mortality during the twentieth century, or none at all. What's more, without assessment of the risk of adverse reactions that might show vaccines to be responsible for an overall reduction in life years, this "intervention" violates the Precautionary Principle, as well. The Precautionary Principle states that the burden of proof for any intervention (medical or otherwise) must rest with its proponents. It is critical to understand that rates of infection, unlike measles mortality, were never reliably assessed and were, in fact, dramatically under reported. According to Alfred S. Evans and Richard A. Kaslow in their book, "Viral Infections of Humans," incidence of measles were under-reported by at least a factor of ten. So say the authors: "...prior to introduction of measles vaccine, about 400,000 cases of measles were reported in the United States every year, but 4 million children were born and essentially all of them ultimately developed measles antibody that could only have been acquired as the result of infection. Thus, the mean true number of cases per year was about 4 million." So, the infection rate was ten times higher than is commonly reported, meaning the true mortality rate prior to vaccine was just one tenth what is claimed by the drug makers. False information dispensed by pro- vaccine agents of industry rests mostly on theoretical science in the form of antibody titres, community surveys and historical fallacies. Any discussion of the fatality risk of measles based on data supplied by vaccine makers, in the absence of meaningful safety data, represents an assault on public health.
> There > are only claims made by clueless twits and frauds. Admission is the first step to recovery.
> >on the issues and I expect others to do the same. If you can't do > >that, your claims are baseless. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Well, that means vaccines are not immoral. You already admitted that randomized placebo controlled trials for vaccinations do not exist. You can't have it both ways.
> >> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding > >> your cousin, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. > > >Do your pharmnut thing. I'm not here to stop you. > > Oh, then why are you here? I'm here to help to help you get your message out. Every time you post to me, it's another opportunity for you to make your case.
> Oh yes, I forgot, to push supplements > on behalf of your employers. We both know you never produced the post you said proved this false claim of yours. And we both know what that means.
> Tell me Petey, I hear the economy is picking up again. Will you be > getting a real job again soon, so you'll no longer need the income > from posting here? I haven't failed to notice you disappeared when > the economy was doing great and reappeared when > unemployment had gone up. > The pattern is unmistakable. Marty and his pharmnut friends can be found in the "Warning" post, at http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e
Citizen Jimserac - 07 Nov 2009 17:02 GMT > > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:31:23 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > Marty and his pharmnut friends can be found in the "Warning" post, athttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e How interesting that my favorite poster, Bowdie, seems to be laboring under similar delusions as Marty!
I am certain that they will see reason, once the TOTAL ABSENCE OF FULL SCIENTIFIC VERIFICATION of the flu vaccines becomes obvious to even the most casual observer. As it must.
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 07 Nov 2009 21:47 GMT >> > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:31:23 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >> [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] >SCIENTIFIC VERIFICATION of the flu vaccines becomes obvious to even >the most casual observer. As it must. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez A search for "efficacy of influenza vaccine" gives 1224 results. Take a look at a few abstracts, and it will become obvious to even the most casual observer that there is loads and loads and loads of FULL SCIENTIFIC VERIFACTIONS of flu vaccines. Your refusal to do even the most basis research about the subject is almost sickening.
>Citizen Jimserac Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 23:01 GMT > On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:02:53 -0800 (PST), Citizen Jimserac > [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > Your refusal to do even the most basis research about the subject is > almost sickening. http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/55499/
PeterB - Original - 09 Nov 2009 04:42 GMT > On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:02:53 -0800 (PST), Citizen Jimserac > [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez > A search for "efficacy of influenza vaccine" gives 1224 results. And a search on "vaccine failure" gives 3,090 results. Don't tell me, it only works when you do it. I'm sure you will proceed to tell us how your result is somehow more meaningful, despite the fact your word string search was ambiguous and mine was not. Go ahead, make a bigger jackass out of yourself than you already have, as if that were possible.
> Take > a look at a few abstracts, and it will become obvious to even the most > casual observer that there is loads and loads and loads of FULL > SCIENTIFIC VERIFACTIONS of flu vaccines. > Your refusal to do even the most basis research about the subject is > almost sickening. marty, getting a hit on a search about vaccine does not prove vaccine safety or effectiveness. I proved that to Blowdip when I did a search using the word string "chemotherapy Early Death." Do you know how many hits there were?
Martin - 07 Nov 2009 21:54 GMT >> >> >> So, without proof. That makes it a baseless claim. And >> >> >> since [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >availability of most vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," >by R. Beaglehole and R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, < snip >
So that's what you have, a few quotes from a book. No reference to any science. Exactly like I said - you have zero science to back up your claims. And thank you for proving my point. Who needs allies with enemies like you who keep on shooting themselves in the foot.
>> There >> are only claims made by clueless twits and frauds. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >You already admitted that randomized placebo controlled trials for >vaccinations do not exist. You can't have it both ways. I did not admit that. All I said is that you are so incredibly stupid and ignorant about the most basic things regarding medical research that you do not understand that evidence in medical research does not equal randomized placebo controlled trials. There is for instance no such research for stopping arterial bleeding, but I hope that even you must admit that stopping arterial bleeding is a safe and effective intervention, even with the absense of such trials. If you don't agree with that I can only conclude that you are completely insane.
>> >> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding >> >> your cousin, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I'm here to help to help you get your message out. Every time you >post to me, it's another opportunity for you to make your case. You usually make my case all by yourself. Like when you claim that when some says they can cure all disease it does not mean they can cure all patients.
>> Oh yes, I forgot, to push supplements >> on behalf of your employers. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Marty and his pharmnut friends can be found in the "Warning" post, at >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e Bob Officer - 08 Nov 2009 06:20 GMT >>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:31:23 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>availability of most vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," >>by R. Beaglehole and R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST,
>< snip > > >So that's what you have, a few quotes from a book. No reference to any >science. Exactly like I said - you have zero science to back up your >claims. And thank you for proving my point. Who needs allies with >enemies like you who keep on shooting themselves in the foot. That's his only citation. and those are basically references to a nonpeer reviewed study of questionable merit IIRC.
Peatey's use of the single refuted Beaglehole study is as bad as John citing articles on his own web site as authoritative in nature.
>>> There >>> are only claims made by clueless twits and frauds. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >intervention, even with the absense of such trials. If you don't agree >with that I can only conclude that you are completely insane. Peatey will redefine words, to meet his own meanings when necessary.
>>> >> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding >>> >> your cousin, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>Marty and his pharmnut friends can be found in the "Warning" post, at >>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e The fallacy of self citation. It isn't a fact because he says so. no matter how many times he says it, it still does not make it factual.
 Signature Bob Officer Posting the truth http://www.skeptics.com.au
PeterB - Original - 09 Nov 2009 05:22 GMT > On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:48:59 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > So that's what you have, a few quotes from a book. This particular quote refutes the myth that vaccines had more than a tiny impact on declining rates of mortality from 1900 to 1975. You see, marty, published information by a respected WHO scientist carries weight because, unlike you, he is a published scientist. If you have a source you can cite to counter, now is the time to do it. No? I didn't think so.
> No reference to any > science. marty, you're an idiot. It's a miracle you can even SPELL the word "science."
> Exactly like I said - you have zero science to back up your > claims. And thank you for proving my point. Who needs allies with > enemies like you who keep on shooting themselves in the foot. So (for the hundredth time) post your sources. No? I didn't think so.
> >> There > >> are only claims made by clueless twits and frauds. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I did not admit that. Not only did you admit it, you defended it. You said it would be "immoral" to withhold untested vaccine. It's your argument, dumbass, not mine.
> All I said is that you are so incredibly stupid > and ignorant about the most basic things regarding medical research > that you do not understand that evidence in medical research does not > equal randomized placebo controlled trials. Please enlighten us. Don't forget to cite your sources. Oh, that's right, you don't believe in sources. It's just you against published science.
> There is for instance no > such research for stopping arterial bleeding, but I hope that even you > must admit that stopping arterial bleeding is a safe and effective > intervention, even with the absense of such trials. Artificial immunization can't be compared to arterial bleeding, which is an emergency medical condition. You're a complete moron.
> >> >> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding > >> >> your cousin, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You usually make my case all by yourself. That must explain why you always have something stupid to add.
> Like when you claim that > when some says they can cure all disease it does not mean they can > cure all patients. > > >Marty and his pharmnut friends can be found in the "Warning" post, at > >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e Citizen Jimserac - 10 Nov 2009 13:23 GMT > > On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:48:59 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > > >Marty and his pharmnut friends can be found in the "Warning" post, at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e Man, you are a seriously patient dude!
When they go wack-a-doodle, I just politiely ignore them.
Citizen Jimserac (aside to Bowdie: You're the man! I liked that link, well done.)
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 22:26 GMT >I haven't failed to notice That you are Martin Rady? Harasser, atheist, over weight and here to argue?
Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 02:20 GMT > >I haven't failed to notice > > That you are Martin Rady? Harasser, atheist, over weight and here to > argue? What does atheism and weight have to do with anything.
If weight mattered, then you being as light in the head as you are, would matter.
Hmmm....
Peter Bowditch - 08 Nov 2009 04:47 GMT >>I haven't failed to notice > >That you are Martin Rady? Harasser, atheist, over weight and here to >argue? How do you know that he is Martin Rady? (Don't provide a MySpace page for a Martin Rady as evidence.)
How do you know that he is an atheist, and what does it matter if he is?
How do you know that he is overweight and what business of yours is it anyway?
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Mark Probert - 07 Nov 2009 00:35 GMT > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:14:04 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > understand what constitutes evidence in medicine nor anything about > morals. Yes Petey, witholding vaccines from people is immoral. Exactly. He plays thgese games, and when called on it, blames the person, such as me, who calls him. If he stopped his games, there may be a discussion.
I am not holding my breath.
> So, as long as you do not come up with evidence regarding your > cousing, I say you made it up out of whole cloth. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Strawman time again. Not again, still.
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:19 GMT > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:14:04 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Exactly. He plays thgese Whatever *thgese* is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/A1974true/73819e3a.gif
Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 02:16 GMT > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:14:04 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Whatever *thgese* is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It is a typo, Stoopid. I keep telling you that.
Typos happen.
What is strikingly sad, is your utter lack of comprehension and critical thinking skills.
That is why I tell you that you are stupid. I am encouraging you to develop those skills.
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/A1974true/73819e3a.gif- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - PeterB - Original - 07 Nov 2009 04:39 GMT > Exactly. He plays thgese games, and when called on it, blames > the person, such as me, who calls him. If he stopped his games, > there may be a discussion. I can't blame you for having zero knowledge of medical science, markey. I also can't blame you for failing to cite your sources, as there aren't any. It's funny you would suggest having a discussion when you aren't capable of having one, but maybe you derive some satisfaction being a comic.
> I am not holding my breath. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Not again, still. Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 02:17 GMT > > Exactly. He plays thgese games, and when called on it, blames > > the person, such as me, who calls him. If he stopped his games, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > when you aren't capable of having one, but maybe you derive some > satisfaction being a comic. Thanks for proving me correct.
> > I am not holding my breath. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 03:59 GMT Martin Rady is a gang member does nothing but lie and insult. Like so many other atheists
dr_jeff - 03 Nov 2009 23:04 GMT >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE >> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas > beyond medicine. Thanks for the link. Nothing is absolutely safe. When ones poops, there is a risk of bacteria entering the blood stream. The government never claimed that vaccines are absolutely safe. The lesson of how dangerous vaccine-preventable diseases are has not been lost, either. That's why vaccines save lives.
Jeff
Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 00:37 GMT > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > >> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > are absolutely safe. The lesson of how dangerous vaccine-preventable > diseases are has not been lost, either. I disagree. There are many people who claim that the diseases are mild and cause no long term problems. They claim the risk is higher with vaccination.
I would love to see a nice, extensive herpes zoster epidemic and have these people have a lesson. The immunity one gets from the disease does not last a lifetime. The complications of the disease often wait for adulthood.
That's why vaccines save lives.
> Jeff Jan Drew - 04 Nov 2009 03:02 GMT > > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > >> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I would love to see a nice, extensive herpes zoster epidemic and have > these people have a lesson. So, you want to be people sick. Not surprised, and a very hate filled Jew.
Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 14:37 GMT > > > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > > >> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > So, you want to be people sick. Not surprised, and a very hate filled > Jew. Actually, BIGOT, I would prefer that they encouraged people to have their chidlren vaccinated with the safe and effective chicken pox vaccine to prevent late onset herpes zozter.
However, you, being the anti-vac liar pro-infectious disease merchant of disability and death, do not want children to be protected.
Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 02:07 GMT Hiow much is * Moree ??
Your words:
I would love to see a nice, extensive herpes zoster epidemic and have these people have a lesson.
So, you would love to see people sick?
That's one hate filled Jew. And is very sad.
Mark Probert - 05 Nov 2009 02:26 GMT > Hiow much is * Moree ?? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So, you would love to see people sick? I would like to see them suffer the consequences of their anti-vac lies.
> That's one hate filled Jew. > And is very sad. t - 05 Nov 2009 13:32 GMT Poor Mark, wont be able to see people suffer as much as he wants. He did not cause enough suffering yet, so he wants more. On Nov 4, 9:07 pm, Jan Drew <jdrew63...@aol.com> wrote:
> Hiow much is * Moree ?? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So, you would love to see people sick? I would like to see them suffer the consequences of their anti-vac lies.
> That's one hate filled Jew. > And is very sad. Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:47 GMT Whatever Moree is.
God help the people who do business with him.
He cannot even type.
Bob Officer - 07 Nov 2009 15:11 GMT > Whatever Moree is. > >God help the people who do business with him. > >He cannot even type. Jan Shrew, The Hypocrite! I have seen Jan make spelling and typing errors
 Signature Bob Officer Posting the truth http://www.skeptics.com.au
Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 02:08 GMT > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:47:47 -0800 (PST), in misc.health.alternative, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Jan Shrew, The Hypocrite! I have seen Jan make spelling and typing > errors They are merely amusing.
It is her comprehension errors that are strikingly stupid.
Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 02:06 GMT > Whatever Moree is. > > God help the people who do business with him. > > He cannot even type. Jan, I do not give a rqat's a.s about the accuracy of my typing in the newsgroup.
When my client's get a report, it is perfect.
You can whine awy, make like a moron, but, it only amuses me, and everyone else.
You are quite pathetic.
Tikkun Olam
Mike - 04 Nov 2009 05:20 GMT >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE >>>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I disagree. There are many people who claim that the diseases are mild > and cause no long term problems. This is true. With some diseases, for most people they are mild and cause no long term problems. Same as with vaccines: safe for most people.
> They claim the risk is higher with vaccination. For some people this is true, for others, the opposite its true. You never know. People have a right to assess risks and make decisions.
> I would love to see a nice, extensive herpes zoster epidemic and have > these people have a lesson. Are you saying that there were nice, extensive zoster epidemics and that they were stopped by chickenpox vaccine? If not then what's the point?
I could say that the vaccine is more likely to bring zoster epidemics. Exposure to kids infected with chickenpox were boosting older people's immunity. Not any more. Once the chickenpox-vaccine generation reached high school we started seeing chickenpox outbreaks in high schools. When they reached college age the college chickenpox outbreaks began. That did not happen before. Extrapolating from that, once they reach old age... - well, most of people reading this, myself included will not see what happens then. Herd immunity will be destroyed by vaccination.
> The immunity one gets from the disease > does not last a lifetime. For syphilis, yes, there is no immunity whatsoever. For a disease like mumps, it is lifetime immunity.
> The complications of the disease often wait > for adulthood. Or the diseases wait for adulthood when the complications become more likely.
> That's why vaccines save lives. Correction needed: *some* vaccines save lives. A blanket statement "vaccines save lives" is incorrect.
john - 04 Nov 2009 09:10 GMT > Nothing is absolutely safe. When ones poops, there is a risk of bacteria > entering the blood stream. The government never claimed that vaccines are > absolutely safe. The lesson of how dangerous vaccine-preventable diseases > are has not been lost, either. That's why vaccines save lives. > > Jeff 4 Lies, breastfeeding is safe, and they say all the time vaccines are safe. Vaccines don't prevent disease and don't save lives
Martin - 04 Nov 2009 12:09 GMT >> Nothing is absolutely safe. When ones poops, there is a risk of bacteria >> entering the blood stream. The government never claimed that vaccines are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >4 Lies, breastfeeding is safe, Not 100%.
>and they say all the time vaccines are safe. Yes they are, according to normal people's definition of safe. Not for you of course, but you're not normal.
>Vaccines don't prevent disease and don't save lives Yeah, sure.
Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 01:46 GMT Once again, Martin Rady does nothing but make up lies and insults.
Like most atheists.
Peter Bowditch - 05 Nov 2009 00:16 GMT >> Nothing is absolutely safe. When ones poops, there is a risk of bacteria >> entering the blood stream. The government never claimed that vaccines are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >4 Lies, breastfeeding is safe, and they say all the time vaccines are safe. >Vaccines don't prevent disease and don't save lives Almost all autistic children have been breastfed before the onset of autism. Coincidence? I think not.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
john - 05 Nov 2009 17:49 GMT "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
> Almost all autistic children have been breastfed before the onset of > autism. Coincidence? I think not. Just a coincidence like all deaths and disease after vaccination ;0)
dr_jeff - 03 Nov 2009 23:02 GMT > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Autism. And never mind the more subtle injury of teenagers who can't focus > and are depressed. That's totally untrue. Vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective. They are not 100% safe: There are some risks. However, the benefits greatly outweigh the risks. There is no evidence that vaccines cause ADHD, autism, difficulty focusing or depression. If I am incorrect, please provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal articles.
Have a lovely day.
PeterB - Original - 04 Nov 2009 00:48 GMT > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > incorrect, please provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal > articles. In the absence of proper safety data on vaccine, it's use violates a responsible application of the Precautionary Principle, which states that proponents of any intervention (medical or otherwise) be required to prove such safety. As a proponent of vaccine, it is YOUR responsibility to produce that data. Unfortunately, you can't, because it doesn't exist. BTW, VAERS (which your own CDC claims is a valid repository of adverse vaccine reports) has not been vetted by the vaccine makers despite decades of access. You might want to talk to your sponsors about that.
dr_jeff - 04 Nov 2009 01:20 GMT >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that proponents of any intervention (medical or otherwise) be required > to prove such safety. Yet, your assumption that there are not proper safety data are flawed.
> As a proponent of vaccine, it is YOUR > responsibility to produce that data. Actually, you got that backwards. It's your responsibility to support your claims.
> Unfortunately, you can't, > because it doesn't exist. BTW, VAERS (which your own CDC claims is a > valid repository of adverse vaccine reports) has not been vetted by > the vaccine makers despite decades of access. Really? When did the CDC claim that it is "valid repository of adverse vaccine reports"? It never did. VAERS was made to address a particular issue, that is, to catch any adverse events that might be occuring. It is not meant to prove the safety of anything.
> You might want to talk > to your sponsors about that. I can't do that. I don't have any sponsors.
Jeff
PeterB - Original - 04 Nov 2009 02:18 GMT > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Yet, your assumption that there are not proper safety data are flawed. That must explain why you didn't post any.
> > As a proponent of vaccine, it is YOUR > > responsibility to produce that data. > > Actually, you got that backwards. It's your responsibility to support > your claims. Nope, the Precautionary Principle puts the onus of proof on those who advocate the policy of intervention. Only an irrational pharmnut would claim otherwise. Are you an irrational pharmnut?
> > Unfortunately, you can't, > > because it doesn't exist. BTW, VAERS (which your own CDC claims is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Really? When did the CDC claim that it is "valid repository of adverse > vaccine reports"? It never did. I never said it was a direct quote, however CDC acknowledges the importance of VAERS as a repository of such reports. It's there, look it up.
> VAERS was made to address a particular > issue, that is, to catch any adverse events that might be occuring. It > is not meant to prove the safety of anything. More importantly, VAERS is not meant to determine the safety of vaccine prior to use. But if adverse events associated with vaccine were properly vetted, a meaningful review of vaccine safety could be developed for those yet to be affected.
> > You might want to talk > > to your sponsors about that. > > I can't do that. I don't have any sponsors. You mean you don't have the balls to admit it.
dr_jeff - 04 Nov 2009 02:35 GMT <...>
>> VAERS was made to address a particular >> issue, that is, to catch any adverse events that might be occuring. It [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > were properly vetted, a meaningful review of vaccine safety could be > developed for those yet to be affected. Of course not. VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine is being used. Other safety studies are done as part of the clinical trials prior to licensure.
>>> You might want to talk >>> to your sponsors about that. >> I can't do that. I don't have any sponsors. > > You mean you don't have the balls to admit it. No, I mean that I only speak for myself. I get no money from any drug company or other type of pharmaceutical company.
Jeff
Jan Drew - 04 Nov 2009 03:12 GMT PeterB - Original - 04 Nov 2009 03:52 GMT > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Of course not. Yes, the proper vetting of VAERS reports would permit a meaningful review of vaccine safety in those already affected.
> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine > is being used. No kidding.
Other safety studies are done as part of the clinical
> trials prior to licensure. I have found no meaningful safety data on vaccines. If I'm wrong, where is it?
> >>> You might want to talk > >>> to your sponsors about that. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, I mean that I only speak for myself. I get no money from any > drug company or other type of pharmaceutical company. I didn't say you did.
Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 14:40 GMT > I have found no meaningful safety data on vaccines. If I'm wrong, > where is it? Right there in PubMed. If your head was not as far up you a.s as it is, you would not be so blind and you could see it.
dr_jeff - 05 Nov 2009 01:09 GMT >> <...> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Yes, the proper vetting of VAERS reports would permit a meaningful > review of vaccine safety in those already affected. No it wouldn't. Look at how the CDC went to Kaiser Permente to get data about rotavirus vaccine safety when there were potential issues. The database is not designed that way at all. Anyone can enter a report.
>> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine >> is being used. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have found no meaningful safety data on vaccines. If I'm wrong, > where is it? I have posted it before. Perhaps you need to open your eyes and look.
jeff
>>>>> You might want to talk >>>>> to your sponsors about that. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I didn't say you did. Mark Probert - 05 Nov 2009 01:12 GMT > >> <...> > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > I have posted it before. Perhaps you need to open your eyes and look. It is not his eyes that are closed. His mind is.
PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 02:32 GMT > >> <...> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The database is not designed that way at all. Anyone can enter a > report. No database represents an evaluation of information stored, that is why such reports are vetted. They are not vetted by the drug makers because they cannot afford to uncover the truth about vaccine hazards.
> >> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine > >> is being used. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I have posted it before. Perhaps you need to open your eyes and look. Story telling and biographical vignettes do not constitute science. I shudder to think that someone like yourself practices medicine, assuming you do.
> >>>>> You might want to talk > >>>>> to your sponsors about that. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > I didn't say you did. Peter B-Aboriginal - 06 Nov 2009 03:19 GMT On Nov 4, 8:09 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote:
> PeterB - Original wrote: > > On Nov 3, 9:35 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > The database is not designed that way at all. Anyone can enter a > report. No database represents an evaluation of information stored, that is why such reports are vetted. They are not vetted by the drug makers because they cannot afford to uncover the truth about vaccine hazards.
> >> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine > >> is being used. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I have posted it before. Perhaps you need to open your eyes and look. Story telling and biographical vignettes do not constitute science. I shudder to think that someone like yourself practices medicine, assuming you do. ============================================= Like your story about your dead cousin?
PeterB - Original - 06 Nov 2009 05:49 GMT > On Nov 4, 8:09 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > ============================================= > Like your story about your dead cousin? No, sh.t for brains. The other had provided those anecdotal accounts in response to a challenge that he post the published science supporting his belief that vaccines are safe and effective. I have never said that my cousin's death represented a scientific assessment of vaccine risk. Your limited intellectual grasp of the facts notwithstanding, I have provided the published science showing vaccine has not accomplished what its proponents believe it has, and so far, those of your ilk have been unable to provide anything *but* anecdotal reports to counter. Don't worry, no one is expecting you to break the mold.
dr_jeff - 07 Nov 2009 03:50 GMT > On Nov 4, 8:09 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote: >> PeterB - Original wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > because they cannot afford to uncover the truth about vaccine > hazards. The data in the VAERS database are not vetted by anyone. Anyone may enter a report, which then goes into the database.
>>>> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine >>>> is being used. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ============================================= > Like your story about your dead cousin? I don't have any dead cousins. They are still all living.
Jeff
PeterB - Original - 07 Nov 2009 04:44 GMT > > On Nov 4, 8:09 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote: > >> PeterB - Original wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > The data in the VAERS database are not vetted by anyone. > Anyone may enter a report, which then goes into the database. My point is that VAERS data *should* be vetted.
> >>>> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine > >>>> is being used. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I don't have any dead cousins. They are still all living. You are responding to the other poster's comment to me, not mine.
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:33 GMT http://www.whale.to/m/putz.html
And now-- dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu>
Bob Officer - 07 Nov 2009 15:12 GMT >http://www.whale.to/m/putz.html > >And now-- dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> Scoffie's Law
 Signature Bob Officer Posting the truth http://www.skeptics.com.au
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 22:34 GMT Jan Drew <jdrew63...@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.whale.to/m/putz.html
And now-- dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu>
Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 14:32 GMT > > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > You mean you don't have the balls to admit it.- Notice how Petey uses idiotsyncratic semantics, logical fallacies, etc. as I have opten pointed out.
Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 02:01 GMT > > > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Poor Mark S Probert. Whatever *opten* is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/A1974true/73819e3a.gif
Mark Probert - 05 Nov 2009 02:25 GMT > > > > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > > > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Poor Mark S Probert. Whatever *opten* is. It is a typo, idiot. Don't you ever learn?
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/A1974true/73819e3a.gif- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:43 GMT Proven liar, harasser,disbarred lawyer who remain silent when disbarred. The, lied about it.
http://www.humanticsfoundation.com/PropagandistProbert.html
Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 02:04 GMT Nonsense, that Jan whines about, deleted.
Jan Drew - 04 Nov 2009 03:09 GMT > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > �As a proponent of vaccine, it is YOUR > > responsibility to produce that data.
> Actually, you got that backwards. It's your responsibility to support > your claims And yours and yours alone to take responsibility to prove you are a dr.
You have failed to do so. That makes you a hypocrite, Jeffrey, Peter, Joseph Utz.
Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 14:39 GMT > > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > And yours and yours alone to take responsibility to prove you are a > dr. Ilena did that so well, and no one can improve on that.
And, BIGOT, I will comment when I feel like it.
> You have failed to do so. That makes you a hypocrite, Jeffrey, Peter, > Joseph Utz.- Wrong. The fact that you, keeper of archives and master GoogleGroup searcher, have been told that you are wrong.
That just makes you uneducable. And StOOOOOpid.
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 04:51 GMT > > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > You have failed to do so. �That makes you a hypocrite, Jeffrey, Peter, > Joseph Utz. Mark Probert - 04 Nov 2009 14:31 GMT > >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > >>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > vaccine reports"? It never did. VAERS was made to address a particular > issue, that is, to catch any adverse events that might be occuring. So that they may be followed up to ensure that it is not a statistical fluke. The perfect example was the origianl RotaShield vaccination that was picked up as causing intussusception, was investigated and this lead to the withdrawal of the vaccine.
I am not aware of any system in the realm of alternatives that can do this.
It
> is not meant to prove the safety of anything. > > > You might want to talk > > to your sponsors about that. > > I can't do that. I don't have any sponsors. Pontificating Blowhard NEEDS you to have sponsors.
Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 01:57 GMT On Nov 4, 9:31�am, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com>
Mark S Probert calling names again. Showing more proof he lied when he posted he read Torah everyday.
Backs himself into a corner again. Open mouth insert both feet.
Peter Moran - 04 Nov 2009 06:45 GMT On Nov 3, 6:02 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote:
> john wrote: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > incorrect, please provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal > articles. In the absence of proper safety data on vaccine, it's use violates a responsible application of the Precautionary Principle, which states that proponents of any intervention (medical or otherwise) be required to prove such safety. As a proponent of vaccine, it is YOUR responsibility to produce that data.
PM Not really. We who have lived through the epidemics of the past know from our own observations that vaccines save lives and a great deal of morbidity at acceptable risk. My mother would never let me drink from a public water fountain druing the polio epidemics and the hospitals had ward after ward with of iron lungs. This is in prevaccination Australia where there has been no change in sanitation levels or healthier living in any way.
We who also have medical training have an intimate aquaintance with the history of vaccine development. So we can analyse propaganda like this post and tell you what is wrong with it --- three things. 1. Smallpox vaccine did have significant risks. It was more dangerous than any modern vaccine, but it was still still less lethal and damaging than smallpox epidemics. For many years all travellers had to undergo it. 2. Vaccinia was a live vaccine so that it probably was quite often ineffective in the days before widespread refrigeration 3. No data is provided about any other vaccine to show that the risks outweigh the benefits.
Any nitwit can understand that once you have had measles or polio and most other epidemic illnesses, you are extremely unlikely to ever get it again. Why should it be so difficult to understand how sensitising the immune system artifically to viral proteins will confer some or all of that immunity, depending on the vaccine, at far less risk than the actual infection?
PM.
No one is making anything up to make a buck.
Unfortunately, you can't, because it doesn't exist. BTW, VAERS (which your own CDC claims is a valid repository of adverse vaccine reports) has not been vetted by the vaccine makers despite decades of access. You might want to talk to your sponsors about that.
john - 04 Nov 2009 12:23 GMT "Peter Moran" <pmoran@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:007aa71f$0$26937
> We who also have medical training have an intimate aquaintance with the > history of vaccine development. So we can analyse propaganda like this > post and tell you what is wrong with it --- three things. > 1. Smallpox vaccine did have significant risks. It was more dangerous > than any modern vaccine, but it was still still less lethal and damaging > than smallpox epidemics. For many years all travellers had to undergo it. Absolute bollocks. Smallpox vaccine killed millions over 200 years http://www.whale.to/a/smallpox_hoax.html
> 2. Vaccinia was a live vaccine so that it probably was quite often > ineffective in the days before widespread refrigeration > 3. No data is provided about any other vaccine to show that the risks > outweigh the benefits. Absolute bollocks, see smallpox vaccine above. As for MMR, see http://www.whale.to/vaccines/measles.html
Peter Moran - 04 Nov 2009 21:20 GMT > "Peter Moran" <pmoran@internode.on.net> wrote in message > news:007aa71f$0$26937 [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Absolute bollocks, see smallpox vaccine above. As for MMR, see > http://www.whale.to/vaccines/measles.html You can cut and paste all the opinions you want. I have lived through the events described and know where the truth lies. In Australia there is nothing other than vaccination that would explain the extraordinary change in epidemic disease patterns over my lifetime.
We do get deaths from Pertussis and measles and diphtheria when vaccination levels drop. This is the experience of all major countries. And it is YOUR FAULT, through your attempts to create unreasonable fear of vaccines.
PM
john - 04 Nov 2009 21:51 GMT "Peter Moran" <pmoran@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:0301de7f$0$1369
> You can cut and paste all the opinions you want. I have lived through > the events described and know where the truth lies. In Australia there > is nothing other than vaccination that would explain the extraordinary > change in epidemic disease patterns over my lifetime. You sound like you are over 100.
You would say that being an Allopath.
"Compare these well vaccinated countries with Australia, the least vaccinated country in the world. In 134 years, not one-fifth of the children born have been vaccinated. Yet only three Australian children under five have died of that disease. In the last 50 years, no child under five has died of smallpox, and in the whole of her history, less than one person per annum has died of it, although allowing five years protective period, only 2 per cent, of her population have ever been "protected." ---- M. BEDDOW BAYLY M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P.
> We do get deaths from Pertussis and measles and diphtheria when > vaccination levels drop. This is the experience of all major countries. > And it is YOUR FAULT, through your attempts to create unreasonable fear of > vaccines. > > PM LOL! Absolute bollocks http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html
Jan Drew - 04 Nov 2009 02:58 GMT > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw43QDiaDnE > > VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > incorrect, please provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal > articles. http://www.digibio.com/archive/SomethingRotten.htm
Something Rotten at the Core of Science? by David F. Horrobin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- �----- Abstract
A recent U.S. Supreme Court decision and an analysis of the peer review system substantiate complaints about this fundamental aspect of scientific research. Far from filtering out junk science, peer review may be blocking the flow of innovation and corrupting public support of science. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- �-----
The U.S. Supreme Court has recently been wrestling with the issues of the acceptability and reliability of scientific evidence. In its judgement in the case of Daubert v. Merrell Dow, the court attempted to set guidelines for U.S. judges to follow when listening to scientific experts. Whether or not findings had been published in a peer-reviewed journal provided one important criterion. But in a key caveat, the court emphasized that peer review might sometimes be flawed, and that therefore this criterion was not unequivocal evidence of validity or otherwise. A recent analysis of peer review adds to this controversy by identifying an alarming lack of correlation between reviewers' recommendations. The Supreme Court questioned the authority of peer review.
Many scientists and lawyers are unhappy about the admission by the top legal authority in the United States that peer review might in some circumstances be flawed [1]. David Goodstein, writing in the Guide to the Federal Rules of Evidence - one of whose functions is to interpret the judgement in the case of Daubert - states that "Peer review is one of the sacred pillars of the scientific edifice" [2]. In public, at least, almost all scientists would agree. Those who disagree are almost always dismissed in pejorative terms such as "maverick," "failure," and "driven by bitterness."
Peer review is central to the organization of modern science. The peer-review process for submitted manuscripts is a crucial determinant of what sees the light of day in a particular journal. Fortunately, it is less effective in blocking publication completely; there are so many journals that most even modestly competent studies will be published provided that the authors are determined enough. The publication might not be in a prestigious journal, but at least it will get into print. However, peer review is also the process that controls access to funding, and here the situation becomes much more serious. There might often be only two or three realistic sources of funding for a project, and the networks of reviewers for these sources are often interacting and interlocking. Failure to pass the peer-review process might well mean that a project is never funded. Science bases its presumed authority in the world on the reliability and objectivity of the evidence that is produced. If the pronouncements of science are to be greeted with public confidence - and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that such confidence is low and eroding - it should be able to demonstrate that peer review, "one of the sacred pillars of the scientific edifice," is a process that has been validated objectively as a reliable process for putting a stamp of approval on work that has been done. Peer review should also have been validated as a reliable method for making appropriate choices as to what work should be done. Yet when one looks for that evidence it is simply not there.
Why not apply scientific methods to the peer review process?
For 30 years or so, I and others have been pointing out the fallibility of peer review and have been calling for much more openness and objective evaluation of its procedures [3-5]. For the most part, the scientific establishment, its journals, and its grant-giving bodies have resisted such open evaluation. They fail to understand that if a process that is as central to the scientific endeavor as peer review has no validated experimental base, and if it consistently refuses open scrutiny, it is not surprising that the public is increasingly skeptical about the agenda and the conclusions of science.
Largely because of this antagonism to openness and evaluation, there is a great lack of good evidence either way concerning the objectivity and validity of peer review. What evidence there is does not give confidence but is open to many criticisms. Now, Peter Rothwell and Christopher Martyn have thrown a bombshell [6]. Their conclusions are measured and cautious, but there is little doubt that they have provided solid evidence of something truly rotten at the core of science.
Forget the reviewers. Just flip a coin.
Rothwell and Martyn performed a detailed evaluation of the reviews of papers submitted to two neuroscience journals. Each journal normally sent papers out to two reviewers. Reviews of abstracts and oral presentations sent to two neuroscience meetings were also evaluated. One meeting sent its abstracts to 16 reviewers and the other to 14 reviewers, which provides a good opportunity for statistical evaluation. Rothwell and Martyn analyzed the correlations among reviewers' recommendations by analysis of variance. Their report should be read in full; however, the conclusions are alarmingly clear. For one journal, the relationships among the reviewers' opinions were no better than that obtained by chance. For the other journal, the relationship was only fractionally better. For the meeting abstracts, the content of the abstract accounted for only about 10 to 20 percent of the variance in opinion of referees, and other factors accounted for 80 to 90 percent of the variance.
These appalling figures will not be surprising to critics of peer review, but they give solid substance to what these critics have been saying. The core system by which the scientific community allots prestige (in terms of oral presentations at major meetings and publication in major journals) and funding is a non-validated charade whose processes generate results little better than does chance. Given the fact that most reviewers are likely to be mainstream and broadly supportive of the existing organization of the scientific enterprise, it would not be surprising if the likelihood of support for truly innovative research was considerably less than that provided by chance.
Objective evaluation of grant proposals is a high priority.
Scientists frequently become very angry about the public's rejection of the conclusions of the scientific process. However, the Rothwell and Martyn findings, coming on top of so much other evidence, suggest that the public might be right in groping its way to a conclusion that there is something rotten in the state of science. Public support can only erode further if science does not put its house in order and begin a real attempt to develop validated processes for the distribution of publication rights, credit for completed work, and funds for new work. Funding is the most important issue that most urgently requires opening up to rigorous research and objective evaluation.
What relevance does this have for pharmacology and pharmaceuticals? Despite enormous amounts of hype and optimistic puffery, pharmaceutical research is actually failing [7]. The annual number of new chemical entities submitted for approval is steadily falling in spite of the enthusiasm for techniques such as combinatorial chemistry, high-throughput screening, and pharmacogenomics. The drive to merge pharmaceutical companies is driven by failure, and not by success.
The peer review process may be stifling innovation.
Could the peer-review processes in both academia and industry have destroyed rather than promoted innovation? In my own field of psychopharmacology, could it be that peer review has ensured that in depression and schizophrenia, we are still largely pursuing themes that were initiated in the 1950s? Could peer review explain the fact that in both diseases the efficacy of modern drugs is no better than those compounds developed in 1950? Even in terms of side-effects, where the differences between old and new drugs are much hyped, modern research has failed substantially. Is it really a success that 27 of every 100 patients taking the selective 5- HT reuptake inhibitors stop treatment within six weeks compared with the 30 of every 100 who take a 1950s tricyclic antidepressant compound? The Rothwell-Martyn bombshell is a wake-up call to the cozy establishments who run science. If science is to have any credibility - and also if it is to be successful - the peer-review process must be put on a much sounder and properly validated basis or scrapped altogether.
"Fiona Godlee and colleagues at the British Medical Journal (BMJ) sent an article containing eight deliberate mistakes in study design, analysis and interpretation to more than 200 of the journal's regular reviewers, most of whom WERE AWARE [emphasis mine] that they were taking part in an experiment1. The reviewers, on average, reported fewer than TWO [emphasis mine] of the errors." [see http://www.nature.com/nature/peerreview/debate/nature04990.html]
http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/diseases/articles/2005/08/15/flaws_are_fou nd_in_validating_medical_studies/
Flaws are found in validating medical studies Many see need to overhaul standards for peer review By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | August 15, 2005
WASHINGTON -- They are two of the most widely publicized pieces of medical research in recent years: Reports in prestigious journals declared that women who underwent hormone replacement therapy, and people who ingested large amounts of Vitamin E, had relatively low rates of heart disease.
But after research contradicted those studies -- frustrating anyone who had followed their recommendations -- some specialists began looking at whether peer review had failed to identify serious flaws in the research.
But the specialists found that it was almost impossible to discover what had happened in the vetting process, since peer reviewers are unpaid, anonymous, and unaccountable. Moreover, their reviews are kept confidential, making it impossible to know the parameters of the reviews.
Now, after a study that sent reverberations through the medical profession by finding that almost one-third of top research articles have been either contradicted or seriously questioned, some specialists are calling for radical changes in the system.
In advance of a world congress on peer review next month in Chicago, these specialists are suggesting that reviewers drop their anonymity and allow comments to be published. Some are proposing that peer reviewers be paid to ensure a more even quality of review and analysis among all journals.
Dr. Drummond Rennie, who relies on review as deputy editor of JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association, said of the process, ''The more we look into it, the harder it is to prove whether it does good or bad."
Rennie has called for greater study of whether peer review improves research, and he has a personal policy of disclosing his name when he reviews articles.
''It would be lovely to start anew and to set up a trial of peer review against no peer review," Rennie said. ''But no journal is willing to risk it."
Rennie's journal published the study, which said that subsequent research had found that almost one-third of the top papers that appeared in top journals over a 13-year period from 1990 to 2003, had been either contradicted or found to have potentially exaggerated results. All the articles had undergone vigorous peer review, leading to questions about whether problems should have been caught by reviewers.
The author of that study, Dr. John Ioannidis, an adjunct professor at the Tufts University School of Medicine, said that flaws in the system were not solely responsible for the problems with the initial studies, but he said that they may be ''part of the puzzle" that should be examined to improve research.
Ioannidis has proposed making peer reviews public so that ''one could see whether someone said, 'This is a great study, publish it,' or whether there was constructive scientific thinking, comment and criticism." He noted that he could not examine any peer reviews, including those for the hormone replacement and Vitamin E studies, because of the confidentiality surrounding peer review.
Under the system of peer review, a researcher submits findings to a journal for publication. Along with a review by editors, the article is sent to several specialists in the field.
These reviewers are not paid for their time, their names are usually not published, and their comments usually remain secret. They are usually not allowed to contact the researchers directly to ask questions, and they do not try to replicate the research.
The system has often had successes; many journal editors say peer review has saved countless prominent scientists from publishing seriously flawed work, and has spared the public from following mistaken medical advice.
But peer review also lacks consistent standards. Procedures vary among the world's 10,000 or so journals. A peer reviewer often spends about four hours reviewing research that may have taken months or years to complete, but the amount of time spent on a review and the expertise of the reviewer can differ greatly, especially at lesser-known journals.
''It has been bandied about as a sort of 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval,' " said Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine. ''It is only as good as the peer reviewers and editors."
The increasing focus on peer review will be highlighted next month, when dozens of journal editors and specialists in peer review meet in Chicago. Dozens of papers will be presented on topics that include whether peer review adds value, and whether conflict-of-interest rules are working.
J=2E Scott Armstrong, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania who has spent years analyzing peer review, has voiced hope that the conference will lead to radical change in the way journals conduct peer review. The system, he said, is outdated and outmoded.
Pointing to a move by some journals to put their information on the Internet and to publish the names of reviewers, he predicts that the current system of anonymous reviewers will be replaced by a version of Amazon.com, in which scientists from around the world contribute their thoughts to constantly updated research.
Change is not likely to come, however, at the upcoming Fifth International Congress on Peer Review and Biomedical Publication. That gathering is intended as a forum for discussion, rather than decision-making.
There is no governing body that defines what constitutes good peer review, or that demands that certain standards be followed.
Moreover, some of the editors at some of the large journals are not eager to change the system. Dr. Jeffrey Drazen, who is the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, said he supports keeping the review system anonymous and unpaid.
''We don't think the system is broken and needs to be overhauled," Drazen said.
Drazen also said peer review is not necessarily at fault when a study is not replicated by subsequent research. ''As a scientist, the things that give me the most joy is when someone is able to replicate something I published," Drazen said. ''That means that you got it right. But sometimes people cannot replicate things. It is a mistake to view it as black and white . . . if you do a second study but can't replicate the primary findings, it doesn't necessarily mean the original research was wrong."
Ioannidis, the author of the study on flawed research, said he had examined articles from top journals published from 1990 to 2003, and had found that 16 percent of those studies were later contradicted, and that another 16 percent were not found to have had as strong a result in subsequent research.
Many factors led to the conflicting results, he said, including the fact that scientific research is often updated when larger or better-controlled trials are conducted. But flaws in the initial studies, including integrity and methodology, could not be ruled out.
Some journals are trying to improve the system by making themselves more open to the public. The Public Library of Science publishes a magazine called PLOS Medicine, which charges authors $1,500 per article but which provides its journals online for free.
PLOS Medicine also encourages peer reviewers to reveal their identity, but it does not demand it.
The journal's senior editor, Barbara Cohen, said some reviewers want anonymity out of concern about retribution, which she described as ''you trashed my paper at Nature, now I'm trashing yours at Science," referring to two leading journals.
Cohen also said she is sympathetic to younger peer reviewers who fear that providing criticism of a senior person in the field will hurt their career. This is a common complaint among reviewers.
But given the high number of studies that end up either wrong or deeply flawed, much of the medical profession is looking for new ways to examine research.
Armstrong, the professor who has read dozens of studies on peer review, cited numerous embarrassing incidents that he said had called the peer review process into question.
In one study, for example, researchers submitted a plagiarized paper to 110 journals, but only two publications recognized the problem.
In another study, researchers examined 18 papers that had been published in peer-reviewed journals by a person who later admitted scientific fraud; they found that 16 of the papers had an average of 12 errors each.
> Have a lovely day. Results 1 - 10 of about 1,570,000 for vaccines not safe nor effective.
http://littlemountainhomeopathy.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/the-swine-flu-vaccine-i s-not-safe-for-pregnant-women-and-children/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/17/earlyshow/health/main5246940.shtm
http://www.marytocco.com/aretheysafe.htm
http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/pediatricks/vacctoday.asp
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It is evening not doc. The day is over.
john - 04 Nov 2009 09:11 GMT > That's totally untrue. Vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective. > They are not 100% safe: There are some risks. However, the benefits > greatly outweigh the risks. There is no evidence that vaccines cause ADHD, > autism, difficulty focusing or depression. If I am incorrect, please > provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal articles. Numerous lies
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA
dr_jeff - 04 Nov 2009 11:41 GMT >> That's totally untrue. Vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective. >> They are not 100% safe: There are some risks. However, the benefits [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine > Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA Do you have a reference for this? He was probably explaining why the FDA does such extensive studies.
jeff
john - 04 Nov 2009 12:19 GMT "dr_jeff" <utz@msu.edu> wrote in message >
> Do you have a reference for this? He was probably explaining why the FDA > does such extensive studies. > > jeff No he wasn't http://www.whale.to/vaccines/morris_h.html
"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them, anyway."------Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer at the FDA)
Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 01:50 GMT > "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > > > Do you have a reference for this? He was probably explaining why the FDA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anyway."------Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer > at the FDA) Jeffey, Peter. Joseph Utz put to shame again
dr_jeff - 05 Nov 2009 02:22 GMT >> "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > >>> Do you have a reference for this? He was probably explaining why the FDA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jeffey, Peter. Joseph Utz put to shame again Incorrect.
From the New England Journal of Medicine:
Volume 357:1373-1381 October 4, 2007 Number 14 NextNext
Effectiveness of Influenza Vaccine in the Community-Dwelling Elderly Kristin L. Nichol, M.D., M.P.H., M.B.A., James D. Nordin, M.D., M.P.H., David B. Nelson, Ph.D., John P. Mullooly, Ph.D., and Eelko Hak, Ph.D.
ABSTRACT
Background Reliable estimates of the effectiveness of influenza vaccine among persons 65 years of age and older are important for informed vaccination policies and programs. Short-term studies may provide misleading pictures of long-term benefits, and residual confounding may have biased past results. This study examined the effectiveness of influenza vaccine in seniors over the long term while addressing potential bias and residual confounding in the results.
Methods Data were pooled from 18 cohorts of community-dwelling elderly members of one U.S. health maintenance organization (HMO) for 1990–1991 through 1999–2000 and of two other HMOs for 1996–1997 through 1999–2000. Logistic regression was used to estimate the effectiveness of the vaccine for the prevention of hospitalization for pneumonia or influenza and death after adjustment for important covariates. Additional analyses explored for evidence of bias and the potential effect of residual confounding.
Results There were 713,872 person-seasons of observation. Most high-risk medical conditions that were measured were more prevalent among vaccinated than among unvaccinated persons. Vaccination was associated with a 27% reduction in the risk of hospitalization for pneumonia or influenza (adjusted odds ratio, 0.73; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.68 to 0.77) and a 48% reduction in the risk of death (adjusted odds ratio, 0.52; 95% CI, 0.50 to 0.55). Estimates were generally stable across age and risk subgroups. In the sensitivity analyses, we modeled the effect of a hypothetical unmeasured confounder that would have caused overestimation of vaccine effectiveness in the main analysis; vaccination was still associated with statistically significant — though lower — reductions in the risks of both hospitalization and death.
Conclusions During 10 seasons, influenza vaccination was associated with significant reductions in the risk of hospitalization for pneumonia or influenza and in the risk of death among community-dwelling elderly persons. Vaccine delivery to this high-priority group should be improved.
t - 05 Nov 2009 13:30 GMT >>> "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > >>>> Do you have a reference for this? He was probably explaining why the [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > associated with statistically significant — though lower — reductions in > the risks of both hospitalization and death. Conclusions from the New England Jornal of Scamming as Medicine
john - 05 Nov 2009 17:51 GMT "dr_jeff" <utz@msu.edu> wrote in message
Who paid for that load of crap?
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/flu.html
dr_jeff - 06 Nov 2009 01:19 GMT > "dr_jeff" <utz@msu.edu> wrote in message > > Who paid for that load of crap? > > http://www.whale.to/vaccines/flu.html I don't know who pays for the crap on whale.to. However, the idiots who believe the site do pay in the long, in shorter and less healthy lives.
Jan Drew - 06 Nov 2009 07:36 GMT > > "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't know who pays for the crap on whale.to. However, the idiots who > believe the site do pay in the long, in shorter and less healthy lives. Nice personal attack from one who is not a dr.
Otherwise he would have proved it by now.
Mark Probert - 06 Nov 2009 14:29 GMT > > > "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Otherwise he would have proved it by now. Hewy, STOOPID...here is an official site showing that Jeff had been licensed as a medical doctor. Since a degree as an MD or DO is required for licensing, he is absolutely entitled to refer to himself as Dr.
http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/free/publicinfo.asp?rb_name=ON&rb_facility=&l_person _id=140039&l_profession_id=43&l_license_id=140924&Last_Name=UTZ&First_Name=JEFFR EY&License_number=&Facility_Name=&DBA_Name=&profession=0&offset=0
Note that he has never represented that he actively practices.
Jan Drew - 07 Nov 2009 03:53 GMT > > > > "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Hewy Whatever *Hewy* is.
What part of *he* do you not understand?
> http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/free/publicinfo.asp?rb_name=ON&rb_facilit... > > Note that he has never represented that he actively practices. Profession : Medicine Type : Medical Doctor - Educational Limited Permanent ID # Status Issue Date Expiration Date 4301066017 Lapsed 07/01/1995 06/30/1997
FACT:
He is not a dr.
And, you are calling names again
Thus, you lied when you posted *I read torah everyday*. And he lies he is not a dr.
Mark Probert - 08 Nov 2009 01:59 GMT > > > > > "dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > He is not a dr. When any doctorate degree is conferred on a person, they may, forever, call themselves doctor.
For example, Betty Martini, the nut case who hates aspartame, calls herself Dr. because she has an honorary one, that means she did not attend class or study for it, from an unaccredited bible college.
She is legally entitled to do so.
So is Jeff, who attended classes, studied, and worked as a physician.
You do not like it, but, too damn bad.
> And, you are calling names again Just trying to help you improve.
> Thus, you lied when you posted *I read torah everyday*. > And he lies he is not a dr.- See above,
Tikkun Olam
Bob Officer - 05 Nov 2009 04:58 GMT >"dr_jeff" <utz@msu.edu> wrote in message > >> Do you have a reference for this? He was probably explaining why the FDA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >anyway."------Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer >at the FDA) Scoffie's Law. Discussion is over. John loses
 Signature Bob Officer Posting the truth http://www.skeptics.com.au
Jan Drew - 05 Nov 2009 01:41 GMT > >> That's totally untrue. Vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective. > >> They are not 100% safe: There are some risks. However, the benefits [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > jeff Try http://www.google.com/ Not doc.
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