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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / March 2004

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Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching

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Jan - 22 Mar 2004 22:49 GMT
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008

Updated: 04:20 PM EST
US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching
By Susan Heavey, Reuters

WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - Patients taking anti-depressants, including
children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for signs of worsening
depression and suicidal thoughts, U.S. health authorities said on Monday.

The warning comes after a panel of experts last month called on the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration to issue stronger warnings about the possible risks of
suicidal behavior among children and teenagers taking antidepressant drugs.

U.S. health officials are studying whether antidepressants can make children
and teenagers suicide-prone but have not yet reached a conclusion.

"We do not know whether or not the treatment...causes these changes. It may
just be the natural course of the disease," said Dr. Russell Katz, head of
neuropharmacological drugs at the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and
Research.

Until it concludes its studies, the agency called on doctors to closely monitor
for signs of hostility, anxiety, insomnia and other behaviors that could signal
worsening depression and suicidal thoughts.

Regulators first alerted physicians to carefully watch children or teenagers
taking antidepressants last fall. Today's stronger warning calls for closer
monitoring and urges patients, families and caregivers to spot behavioral
changes.

Patients should alert their doctors, who may consider lowering the dose or
ending use of the drug, the FDA said.

The agency also asked manufacturers to change the labels of 10 drugs to include
larger and more prominent warnings about patient monitoring.

Those 10 drugs include, among others, Solvay's Luvox, Pfizer's Zoloft, and
three GlaxoSmithKline Plc drugs -- Wellbutrin, Zyban and Paxil.

Questions about a possible link with suicidal behavior arose last year when
regulators were reviewing clinical trials of children who took Paxil.

The other antidepressants the FDA is evaluating are Forest Laboratories Inc.'s
Celexa, Akzo Nobel's Remeron, Bristol-Myers Squibb's Serzone, Eli Lilly and
Co.'s Prozac, and Wyeth's Effexor.

Only Prozac, sold generically as fluoxetine, is approved for treating pediatric
depression.

In Britain, health authorities have advised doctors not to prescribe most of
SSRI drugs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, to anyone under 18.

Dr. Richard Gorman of the American Academy of Pediatrics said it was too soon
to tell if British officials were being overly cautious or if U.S. regulators
"dragged their feet."

Either way, antidepressant use in youth "should have been studied prior to
being released," said Gorman, a pediatrician in Baltimore.

Experts who served on last month's panel were especially concerned with suicide
risk in youth, but the FDA said it was also reevaluating the risk for adults,
who should also be monitored.

FDA officials said they plan to make their final decision in September.

(Additional reporting by Lisa Richwine)

03/22/04 16:18 ET
Eric Bohlman - 22 Mar 2004 23:08 GMT
> http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> signs of worsening depression and suicidal thoughts, U.S. health
> authorities said on Monday.

This is just a formalization of something that has been *well* known in
mental health fields for *ages*.  The simple fact is that it's quite
possible for someone to be so severely depressed that he wants to kill
himself but lacks the "mental energy" to do so.  The lack of "mental
energy" represents a more severe state of depression than the suicidal
tendencies.

This means that when such a person undergoes *any* effective treatment for
depression that doesn't work instantaneously, or even experiences a
temporary improvement in his mood due to the ordinary fluctuations of the
disease, the psychomotor retardation (the technical term for the "lack of
energy") may improve before the suicidal ideation does.  And now you've got
someone who wants to kill himself *and* is now capable, as he wasn't
before, of carrying it out.

And it doesn't matter *what* the treatment is.  Even if there were, for
example, a purely nutritional treatment that were effective against
depression, it would carry the same risk.
Jan - 22 Mar 2004 23:40 GMT
>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>From: Eric Bohlman ebohlman@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>example, a purely nutritional treatment that were effective against
>depression, it would carry the same risk.

Just heard it on Fox news.

The warning comes after a panel of experts last month called on the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration to issue stronger warnings about the possible risks of
suicidal behavior among children and teenagers taking antidepressant drugs.

U.S. health officials are studying whether antidepressants can make children
and teenagers suicide-prone but have not yet reached a conclusion.

"We do not know whether or not the treatment...causes these changes. It may
just be the natural course of the disease," said Dr. Russell Katz, head of
neuropharmacological drugs at the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and
Research.

Until it concludes its studies, the agency called on doctors to closely monitor
for signs of hostility, anxiety, insomnia and other behaviors that could signal
worsening depression and suicidal thoughts.

Regulators first alerted physicians to carefully watch children or teenagers
taking antidepressants last fall. Today's stronger warning calls for closer
monitoring and urges patients, families and caregivers to spot behavioral
changes.

Patients should alert their doctors, who may consider lowering the dose or
ending use of the drug, the FDA said.

The agency also asked manufacturers to change the labels of 10 drugs to include
larger and more prominent warnings about patient monitoring.

Those 10 drugs include, among others, Solvay's Luvox, Pfizer's Zoloft, and
three GlaxoSmithKline Plc drugs -- Wellbutrin, Zyban and Paxil.

Questions about a possible link with suicidal behavior arose last year when
regulators were reviewing clinical trials of children who took Paxil.

The other antidepressants the FDA is evaluating are Forest Laboratories Inc.'s
Celexa, Akzo Nobel's Remeron, Bristol-Myers Squibb's Serzone, Eli Lilly and
Co.'s Prozac, and Wyeth's Effexor.

Only Prozac, sold generically as fluoxetine, is approved for treating pediatric
depression.

In Britain, health authorities have advised doctors not to prescribe most of
SSRI drugs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, to anyone under 18.

Dr. Richard Gorman of the American Academy of Pediatrics said it was too soon
to tell if British officials were being overly cautious or if U.S. regulators
"dragged their feet."

Either way, antidepressant use in youth "should have been studied prior to
being released," said Gorman, a pediatrician in Baltimore.

Experts who served on last month's panel were especially concerned with suicide
risk in youth, but the FDA said it was also reevaluating the risk for adults,
who should also be monitored.

FDA officials said they plan to make their final decision in September.

(Additional reporting by Lisa Richwine)

03/22/04 16:18 ET
Hawki63 - 23 Mar 2004 03:43 GMT
>ubject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>From: jdrew63929@aol.com  (Jan)
>Date: 3/22/2004 2:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040322174042.06950.00000246@mb-m16.aol.com>

geez Janny

>>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching

THAT  is by far the stupidest thing you have jumped upon since I have been
reading this group..

do you think that kids are merely handed these drugs and sent on their ways???

yikes..leave the "real" doctoring to the REAL doctors..

what a maroon

hawki.....
Orac - 24 Mar 2004 03:57 GMT
> > http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> energy" represents a more severe state of depression than the suicidal
> tendencies.

Precisely!

> This means that when such a person undergoes *any* effective treatment for
> depression that doesn't work instantaneously, or even experiences a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> someone who wants to kill himself *and* is now capable, as he wasn't
> before, of carrying it out.

Correct!  I really don't understand why this study is getting so much
play in the media, as it's really something that any third year medical
student who has passed his psychiatry rotation should be able to tell
you. Indeed, even though it's been around 16 years since I took  my
psych rotation in medical school, even *I* still remember this.

> And it doesn't matter *what* the treatment is.  Even if there were, for
> example, a purely nutritional treatment that were effective against
> depression, it would carry the same risk.

Quite true. If the treatment doesn't eliminate the suicidal ideation as
fast or faster than it improves mood and energy levels, it would carry
exactly the same risk.

Signature

Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
           |
           |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
           | inconvenience me with questions?"

Mark Probert-March 22, 2004 - 22 Mar 2004 23:09 GMT
> http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008
>
> Updated: 04:20 PM EST
> US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching

Let's file this in the "Well, duh" file.
Peter Bowditch - 23 Mar 2004 01:35 GMT
>WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - Patients taking anti-depressants, including
>children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for signs of worsening
>depression and suicidal thoughts, U.S. health authorities said on Monday.

Washington, March 23 (RatbagsWire) - Patients taking anti-histamines,
including children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for
signs of worsening sneezing and runny noses, U.S. health authorities
said on Monday.

In other words, Jan, SFW? People being treated for conditions which
can cause suicidal thoughts should be watched in case those thoughts
get worse. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Oh, by the way, unless you have actual experience with people with
suicidal thoughts, you should shut the f.ck up.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light          http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan - 23 Mar 2004 04:08 GMT
>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Oh, by the way, unless you have actual experience with people with
>suicidal thoughts, you should shut the f.ck up.

So the news upsets you??????????

I didn't say it Peter.

I just posted it, get a grip.

In pasting while listing to the news in the back ground, it was said some woman
hung herslf.

You have the choice to turn your TV off and stick you head in the sand.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008

Updated: 04:20 PM EST
US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching
By Susan Heavey, Reuters

WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - Patients taking anti-depressants, including
children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for signs of worsening
depression and suicidal thoughts, U.S. health authorities said on Monday.

The warning comes after a panel of experts last month called on the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration to issue stronger warnings about the possible risks of
suicidal behavior among children and teenagers taking antidepressant drugs.

U.S. health officials are studying whether antidepressants can make children
and teenagers suicide-prone but have not yet reached a conclusion.

"We do not know whether or not the treatment...causes these changes. It may
just be the natural course of the disease," said Dr. Russell Katz, head of
neuropharmacological drugs at the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and
Research.

Until it concludes its studies, the agency called on doctors to closely monitor
for signs of hostility, anxiety, insomnia and other behaviors that could signal
worsening depression and suicidal thoughts.

Regulators first alerted physicians to carefully watch children or teenagers
taking antidepressants last fall. Today's stronger warning calls for closer
monitoring and urges patients, families and caregivers to spot behavioral
changes.

Patients should alert their doctors, who may consider lowering the dose or
ending use of the drug, the FDA said.

The agency also asked manufacturers to change the labels of 10 drugs to include
larger and more prominent warnings about patient monitoring.

Those 10 drugs include, among others, Solvay's Luvox, Pfizer's Zoloft, and
three GlaxoSmithKline Plc drugs -- Wellbutrin, Zyban and Paxil.

Questions about a possible link with suicidal behavior arose last year when
regulators were reviewing clinical trials of children who took Paxil.

The other antidepressants the FDA is evaluating are Forest Laboratories Inc.'s
Celexa, Akzo Nobel's Remeron, Bristol-Myers Squibb's Serzone, Eli Lilly and
Co.'s Prozac, and Wyeth's Effexor.

Only Prozac, sold generically as fluoxetine, is approved for treating pediatric
depression.

In Britain, health authorities have advised doctors not to prescribe most of
SSRI drugs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, to anyone under 18.

Dr. Richard Gorman of the American Academy of Pediatrics said it was too soon
to tell if British officials were being overly cautious or if U.S. regulators
"dragged their feet."

Either way, antidepressant use in youth "should have been studied prior to
being released," said Gorman, a pediatrician in Baltimore.

Experts who served on last month's panel were especially concerned with suicide
risk in youth, but the FDA said it was also reevaluating the risk for adults,
who should also be monitored.

FDA officials said they plan to make their final decision in September.

(Additional reporting by Lisa Richwine)

03/22/04 16:18 ET

Jan
Peter Bowditch - 23 Mar 2004 05:48 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>
>So the news upsets you??????????

No, it doesn't upset me. It is not anything surprising. What upsets me
is you posting it here for no other reason than to further your agenda
against psychiatric medication. As you know nothing about this you
should shut up about it.

>I didn't say it Peter.

But you posted it. Doesn't that make you responsible for it, or do
those rules only apply to other people.

>I just posted it, get a grip.

Yes, you posted it. Why?

>In pasting while listing to the news in the back ground, it was said some woman
>hung herslf.

Sad, but nothing to do with what we are talking about here, which is
that people taking drugs should be observed.

>You have the choice to turn your TV off and stick you head in the sand.

You have a choice to stop ranting about medications which are
beneficial to many people, but which should only be used under proper
medical supervision.

<snip repeat of motherhood statements about how doctors should keep
track of patients on medication>

Oh, I almost forgot unless you have actual experience with people with
suicidal thoughts, you should shut the f.ck up.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light          http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan - 23 Mar 2004 06:59 GMT
>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>against psychiatric medication. As you know nothing about this you
>should shut up about it.

I posted it because I heard it on Fox news today. It is a concern of everyone,
with a warning, Furthermore your opinion about what I know is just that *your
opinion*

>I didn't say it Peter.

>But you posted it.

Yes I did, right after I heard it on the news, I looked it up.

>Doesn't that make you responsible for it, or do
>those rules only apply to other people.

You need to calm down Peter.

>I just posted it, get a grip.
>
>Yes, you posted it. Why?

Do read the title.

> Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching

>>In pasting while listing to the news in the back ground, it was said some
>woman
>>hung herslf.
>
>Sad, but nothing to do with what we are talking about here, which is
>that people taking drugs should be observed.

Say what!!!!

One might consider that a hanging would bring on reason for the warning.

>>You have the choice to turn your TV off and stick you head in the sand.

>You have a choice to stop ranting about medications which are
>beneficial to many people, but which should only be used under proper
>medical supervision.

No rant whatsoever.

><snip repeat of motherhood statements about how doctors should keep
>track of patients on medication>

Why???????????

>Oh, I almost forgot unless you have actual experience with people with
>suicidal thoughts, you should shut the f.ck up.

Thanks for showing us your true character.

As in shoot the messenger , (using foul language) if they post something that's
in the news that you don't like.

Now for the FULL article in the news!

GET OVER YOUR CONTROL PROBLEM.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008

Updated: 04:20 PM EST
US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching
By Susan Heavey, Reuters

WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - Patients taking anti-depressants, including
children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for signs of worsening
depression and suicidal thoughts, U.S. health authorities said on Monday.

The warning comes after a panel of experts last month called on the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration to issue stronger warnings about the possible risks of
suicidal behavior among children and teenagers taking antidepressant drugs.

U.S. health officials are studying whether antidepressants can make children
and teenagers suicide-prone but have not yet reached a conclusion.

"We do not know whether or not the treatment...causes these changes. It may
just be the natural course of the disease," said Dr. Russell Katz, head of
neuropharmacological drugs at the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and
Research.

Until it concludes its studies, the agency called on doctors to closely monitor
for signs of hostility, anxiety, insomnia and other behaviors that could signal
worsening depression and suicidal thoughts.

Regulators first alerted physicians to carefully watch children or teenagers
taking antidepressants last fall. Today's stronger warning calls for closer
monitoring and urges patients, families and caregivers to spot behavioral
changes.

Patients should alert their doctors, who may consider lowering the dose or
ending use of the drug, the FDA said.

The agency also asked manufacturers to change the labels of 10 drugs to include
larger and more prominent warnings about patient monitoring.

Those 10 drugs include, among others, Solvay's Luvox, Pfizer's Zoloft, and
three GlaxoSmithKline Plc drugs -- Wellbutrin, Zyban and Paxil.

Questions about a possible link with suicidal behavior arose last year when
regulators were reviewing clinical trials of children who took Paxil.

The other antidepressants the FDA is evaluating are Forest Laboratories Inc.'s
Celexa, Akzo Nobel's Remeron, Bristol-Myers Squibb's Serzone, Eli Lilly and
Co.'s Prozac, and Wyeth's Effexor.

Only Prozac, sold generically as fluoxetine, is approved for treating pediatric
depression.

In Britain, health authorities have advised doctors not to prescribe most of
SSRI drugs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, to anyone under 18.

Dr. Richard Gorman of the American Academy of Pediatrics said it was too soon
to tell if British officials were being overly cautious or if U.S. regulators
"dragged their feet."

Either way, antidepressant use in youth "should have been studied prior to
being released," said Gorman, a pediatrician in Baltimore.

Experts who served on last month's panel were especially concerned with suicide
risk in youth, but the FDA said it was also reevaluating the risk for adults,
who should also be monitored.

FDA officials said they plan to make their final decision in September.

(Additional reporting by Lisa Richwine)

03/22/04 16:18 ET

Jan

Being truthful means speaking the truth and also saying things that reflect
reality. Being truthful is one of the necessities of a human society, one of
the virtues of human behaviour, and brings great benefits, whilst lying is one
of the major elements of corruption in human society, and the cause of the
destruction of social structure and ties, one of the most evil features of bad
conduct, and causes widespread harm.
Rod - 23 Mar 2004 14:19 GMT
Well Peter,

Now I posted it. I would have thought such information as absolutely vital,
especially when the FDA issues requests to manufacturers to include warning
statements of close observations.

Would you please withdraw your STFU remarks and perhaps lay off the
Prozac/Zoloft and you may not feel so suicidal.

Cheers, Rod

Med - The FDA Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program

The FDA asked manufacturers of the following antidepressant drugs to include
in their labelling a Warning statement that recommends close observation of
adult and pediatric patients for worsening depression or the emergence of
suicidally when treated with these agents. The drugs that are the focus of
this new Warning are: Prozac (fluoxetine); Zoloft (sertraline); Paxil
(paroxetine); Luvox (fluvoxamine); Celexa (citalopram); Lexapro
(escitalopram); Wellbutrin (bupropion); Effexor (venlafaxine); Serzone
(nefazodone); and Remeron (mirtazapine).

See the 2004 MedWatch safety summary, including links to the drug
information page and the FDA Public Health Advisory, at:

http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/SAFETY/2004/safety04.htm#antidepressants

--------

Thank you for using MedWatch as a trusted source for timely safety
information on drugs and other medical products regulated by the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration. If you find this e-mail notification helpful,
please consider telling colleagues and friends about MedWatch.  They can
learn more about us and subscribe/unsubscribe to the e-list at the MedWatch
homepage,  http://www.fda.gov/medwatch or by going directly to
http://list.nih.gov/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=medwatch&A=1

> >>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
> >>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> Peter Bowditch (snip the garbage)
> To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Peter Bowditch - 23 Mar 2004 14:40 GMT
>Well Peter,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Cheers, Rod

The information is vital, but it is not news. Jan posted it because
she hates conventional medicine, even to the point of accepting the
lies of the Cult of Scientology.

There's no need to use initials or abbreviations. You can shut the
f.ck up any time you want.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light          http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
MHA Needs More Skeptics - 23 Mar 2004 18:07 GMT
>>Well Peter,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>There's no need to use initials or abbreviations. You can shut the
>f.ck up any time you want.

Indeed, but he should continue pounding sand up his Nazi Bunghole until further
notice.

>--
>Peter Bowditch
Jan - 23 Mar 2004 21:35 GMT
>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>The information is vital, but it is not news

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008

Updated: 04:20 PM EST
US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching
By Susan Heavey, Reuters

WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters)

>Jan posted it because
>she hates conventional medicine,

That's now two lies in this post.

>even to the point of accepting the
>lies of the Cult of Scientology.

*Cult* is an opinion.

I honor truth.

>There's no need to use initials or abbreviations. You can shut the
>f.ck up any time you want.

Perhaps someone needs to watch Peter.

Seriously.

Jan
Peter Bowditch - 23 Mar 2004 23:53 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters)

As I said, it is vital but it is not news. Being "news" doesn't mean
being in the paper or on TV, it means providing new information. There
was nothing in that article which would cause any surprise to any
sentient being. There could be no reason to post it in m.h.a except to
try to show how eeeeevill eeeeeevil organised medicine is.

>>Jan posted it because
>>she hates conventional medicine,
>
>That's now two lies in this post.

What was the first one? Not that there is a second one, of course.

>>even to the point of accepting the
>>lies of the Cult of Scientology.
>
>*Cult* is an opinion.

It must be time to remind Jan what L Ron Hubbard thought about Jesus:

"For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on, let me
take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For
instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has
been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and
men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that
belied the general message of love, understanding and other typical
Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired
to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man
still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic
implanting".

>I honor truth.

You defile truth and call its users liars. You will accept the word of
someone who says that Jesus was a pedophile if it suits you to do so.

>>There's no need to use initials or abbreviations. You can shut the
>>f.ck up any time you want.
>
>Perhaps someone needs to watch Peter.

I'm going to spend part of today visiting a person who is under 24
hour suicide watch in hospital. Perhaps I can get the nurses to watch
me as well as the patient.

>Seriously.

Yes, mental illness and depression are far too serious matters for you
to be interfering with your anti-medicine bullshit.

>Jan

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light          http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Rich.@. - 23 Mar 2004 23:57 GMT
> You will accept the word of
>someone who says that Jesus was a pedophile if it suits you to do so.

Cue Jan to call Peter a liar.

Aloha,

Rich

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance
Toby Joe - 24 Mar 2004 00:27 GMT
> >>even to the point of accepting the
> >>lies of the Cult of Scientology.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic
> implanting".

That is horrific.

Do you have a reference?

-  Considering I've just been lecturing jan about attributions and
references...

and also because something so serious needs to be verifiable for ourselves.

Signature

"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is
from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply."  R. Serling

Peter Bowditch - 24 Mar 2004 07:09 GMT
>> >>even to the point of accepting the
>> >>lies of the Cult of Scientology.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Do you have a reference?

OT VIIIB

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/fishman/ot8b.html

When Jan or someone else says that this is not a Scientology site and
therefore cannot be a real account of anything that Hubbard said or
that his followers (including the Citizens Commission on Human Rights)
believe, I should point out that this is court document containing
material which the Criminal Cult claimed as trade secrets. They used
to claim that OTVIII was a forgery, but they shot themselves in the
foot when they seized a copy in a raid and declared that it was
copyrighted to them.

The real reason that they don't want this stuff made public is that
nobody would give them $300,000 to cross the bridge if they knew that
this is where it led.

>-  Considering I've just been lecturing jan about attributions and
>references...
>
>and also because something so serious needs to be verifiable for ourselves.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light          http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan - 24 Mar 2004 07:27 GMT
>Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
>As I said, it is vital but it is not news.

>http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008
>>
>>Updated: 04:20 PM EST
>>US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching
>>By Susan Heavey, Reuters

>>WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters)

>>Perhaps someone needs to watch Peter.

>>Seriously.

>Yes, mental illness and depression are far too serious matters for you
>to be interfering with your anti-medicine bullshit.

That's lie # 3. No interference whatsoever, just posting the news.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008

Updated: 04:20 PM EST
US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching
By Susan Heavey, Reuters

WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - Patients taking anti-depressants, including
children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for signs of worsening
depression and suicidal thoughts, U.S. health authorities said on Monday.

The warning comes after a panel of experts last month called on the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration to issue stronger warnings about the possible risks of
suicidal behavior among children and teenagers taking antidepressant drugs.

U.S. health officials are studying whether antidepressants can make children
and teenagers suicide-prone but have not yet reached a conclusion.

"We do not know whether or not the treatment...causes these changes. It may
just be the natural course of the disease," said Dr. Russell Katz, head of
neuropharmacological drugs at the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and
Research.

Until it concludes its studies, the agency called on doctors to closely monitor
for signs of hostility, anxiety, insomnia and other behaviors that could signal
worsening depression and suicidal thoughts.

Regulators first alerted physicians to carefully watch children or teenagers
taking antidepressants last fall. Today's stronger warning calls for closer
monitoring and urges patients, families and caregivers to spot behavioral
changes.

Patients should alert their doctors, who may consider lowering the dose or
ending use of the drug, the FDA said.

The agency also asked manufacturers to change the labels of 10 drugs to include
larger and more prominent warnings about patient monitoring.

Those 10 drugs include, among others, Solvay's Luvox, Pfizer's Zoloft, and
three GlaxoSmithKline Plc drugs -- Wellbutrin, Zyban and Paxil.

Questions about a possible link with suicidal behavior arose last year when
regulators were reviewing clinical trials of children who took Paxil.

The other antidepressants the FDA is evaluating are Forest Laboratories Inc.'s
Celexa, Akzo Nobel's Remeron, Bristol-Myers Squibb's Serzone, Eli Lilly and
Co.'s Prozac, and Wyeth's Effexor.

Only Prozac, sold generically as fluoxetine, is approved for treating pediatric
depression.

In Britain, health authorities have advised doctors not to prescribe most of
SSRI drugs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, to anyone under 18.

Dr. Richard Gorman of the American Academy of Pediatrics said it was too soon
to tell if British officials were being overly cautious or if U.S. regulators
"dragged their feet."

Either way, antidepressant use in youth "should have been studied prior to
being released," said Gorman, a pediatrician in Baltimore.

Experts who served on last month's panel were especially concerned with suicide
risk in youth, but the FDA said it was also reevaluating the risk for adults,
who should also be monitored.

FDA officials said they plan to make their final decision in September.

(Additional reporting by Lisa Richwine)

03/22/04 16:18 ET
Mark Probert-March 23, 2004 - 24 Mar 2004 15:19 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Warning-Antidressant Patients Need Watching
> >From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> >
> That's lie # 3. No interference whatsoever, just posting the news.

Actually, that is a lie (#1X10-E100?)

You are posting it with the clear intent of bashing treatment for real
problems with effective treatment. The fact is, careful monitoring of all
patients on SSRIs was common practice before this article. IOW, it is not
"news."
Happy Oyster - 24 Mar 2004 16:11 GMT
>>>US FDA says antidepressant patients need watching

Jan Drew is an advertizing agency for the naturopath mafia and by no
means a person who can be believed. Jan Drew abuses honorable
scientists like Mr. Vimy, Mr. Lorscheider, etc for his insane
advertizing for insane junk.

More about Jan Drew, the shame of the human race :

  http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html

Regards,

Aribert Deckers
Signature

                 Reklame mit wahrheitswidrigen Behauptungen

                  http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_wies.htm

MHA Needs More Skeptics - 23 Mar 2004 18:05 GMT
>Oh, I almost forgot unless you have actual experience with people with
>suicidal thoughts, you should shut the f.ck up.
>
>--
>Peter Bowditch

I think you can drop the qualifer.  Jan Drew should simply shut the f.ck up.
Orac - 24 Mar 2004 03:53 GMT
> >WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - Patients taking anti-depressants, including
> >children and teenagers, should be closely monitored for signs of worsening
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Oh, by the way, unless you have actual experience with people with
> suicidal thoughts, you should shut the f.ck up.

Quite honestly, I really don't know why this particular story is getting
so much play in the  media. It's one o fthose studies that I like to
refer to a "well, DUH!" study It's something that's been known for a
long time. Very depressed people with suicidal ideation are frequently
so sapped of energy from their depression that, even though they want to
kill themselves, they lack the will or energy to do it. Unfortunately,
antidepressants tend to kick in somewhat slowly, often taking a few
weeks to reach their full effect. When a very depressed patient starts
taking antidepressants, he usually starts to feel better and have more
energy before the suicidal ideation starts to go away. It's at that
point, when the patient has more energy from the effects antidepressant
but the drug hasn't reached its full effect and the patient hasn't
stopped having suicidal ideation yet, that the patient is at a
transiently increased risk of suicide. It is at that time that the
patient must be monitored more closely, until the transiently increased
risk of suicide has passed.

Any first year psychiatry resident can tell you that. Hell, any third
year medical student who has passed his or her psychiatry rotation
should be able to tell you that. Yet suddenly this is big news?

Signature

Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
           |
           |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
           | inconvenience me with questions?"

Rich.@. - 24 Mar 2004 04:09 GMT
>Very depressed people with suicidal ideation are frequently
>so sapped of energy from their depression that, even though they want to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>stopped having suicidal ideation yet, that the patient is at a
>transiently increased risk of suicide.

While this may be true in a person who is already suicidal, there is a
suggestion that these medications cause suicidal ideation and behavior
in a depressed person who was not suicidal before taking the
medication.

Of course one reason why someone might become suicidal after taking
the medication may be due to the medication not working and the
depression getting worse thus leading to suicidal ideation. For
example a person might initially be hopeful about the depression
getting better on the medication and then when it does not get better
the person might get more depressed, hopeless and suicidal believing
that nothing will help.

It appears that it would be very difficult to pin down a causal
relationship between antidepressants and suicidal behavior given this
possibility. One could compare people who are suicidal not being
treated with antidepressants with those on antidepressants to see if
there is any difference. I suspect it would be difficult to allow
suicidal people to go unmedicated given what we know about the
positive effects of antidepressants on this potentially fatal illness.

Aloha,

Rich
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance
Jan - 24 Mar 2004 16:50 GMT
>http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040322162009990008
>
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>
>03/22/04 16:18 ET

http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/SAFETY/2004/safety04.htm#antidepressants

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