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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / March 2004Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright"
> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote: > > > > Inasmuch as HIV is not sentient, I dislike the cheapening of the term > > "genocide" in this context. Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up, pompous, arrogant, blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self rightious, middle class KNOW NOTHING to lead it. If I ever, repeat ever, try to debate anything whatsoever with you in the future, anyone is most welcome to refer me to a psychologist. "America the beautiful"??? America the Gross, America the Ugly, America the pitiful, as personified in such as you.  Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self rightious, middle class KNOW NOTHING >to lead it. Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David said? I don't think that he was trying to diminish or play down the great human tragedy with HIV. I think, perhaps, your differences are mostly semantic. Of course, David can speak for himself, but I thought I'd put my .02 cents worth in. > >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > think that he was trying to diminish or play down the great human tragedy > with HIV. I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly that. And so, is loathsome. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling > > >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote: > > >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly that. And so, is > loathsome. Ilsa, consider this: When the Holocaust was underway in Germany, do you think that the intelligencia within the country saw it, recognised it, and thought, "Yes! We are allowing this heinous act. We are allowing our neighbours to disappear, and we know they are dying, and we accept that we are a part of this evil." Or do you think they found ways of rationalising it to themselves, for example by saying or thinking, "Well, they are ... over there somewhere, another suburb, another town. And they must have done something to bring this on themselves. It is not our responsibility" You think they would have used the word "genocide" to describe what was happening around them? Or might they not have found more "suitable" or acceptable language, acceptable to their own conscience as they turned aside and continued with their daily lives. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >> > >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote: >> > >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >disappear, and we know they are dying, and we accept that we are a part of >this evil." I think only a small percentages of Americans knew anything of the full extent of what was going on. Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the word "genocide" which implies concious intent. In other words, we would not say someone was MURDERED by Gangrene, but we might say someone was murdered by Jeffrey Dalmer. I read his response I don't see anything about it that is dismissive of the horrible condition. From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" > >> > Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David said? I > >> > don't think that he was trying to diminish or play down the great [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I think only a small percentages of Americans knew anything of the full > extent of what was going on. And how much do we know of the situation in Africa? What an easy excuse that will be: "But we didn't know." Wilful ignorance, and an intention to ensure it stays that way as long as possibly can be. > Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the word "genocide" > which implies concious intent. I think there was conscious intent in raising a question over the use of the word. The same conscious intent that is seen in many other attempts, often successful, to divert discussion, to limit what people may or may not think about and the way that people think. > In other words, we would not say someone was MURDERED by Gangrene, but we > might say someone was murdered by Jeffrey Dalmer. Choosing to take offence at the use of a word has long been used to impede or divert discussion on mha. If someone feels they have a real problem with the word usage then they should take it up with Kofi Annan. However I note that the diversion into semantics has, once again, successfully derailed a discussion of a "difficult" topic. > I read his response I don't see anything about it that is dismissive of > the horrible condition. I have answered that separately but I will do so again, in a separate post. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Wilful ignorance, and an intention to ensure it stays that way as long as >possibly can be. Actually, the USA does a lot to help Africa with HIV. If I'm not mistaken, aren't major clinical trials being done there? Aren't they trying to develope a vaccine? Isn't Bill Gates throwing a lot of money into research? Sure, what is happening there is a terrible tragedy, but is it qualitatively worse that they die from HIV as opposed to famine, earthquake, drowning, snake-bite, etc? HIV is a naturally occuring virus, most likely indigenous to Africa. I can't see how that plague, or small pox for that matter, meet the definition of "genocide" even if they do end up killing more people than a given dictator. HIV is an extremely equal opportunity killer. It is, however, not a premediated killer. Ascribing to it a motive to eliminate a specific group of people within the world population doesn't seem accurate. That, in no way, attempts to diminish the horrors of HIV. From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" > >Toby Joe <tobyj@emailaccount.com> wrote: > >> > Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David said? I [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > was MURDERED by Gangrene, but we might say someone was murdered by > Jeffrey Dalmer. Conscious intent is in two parts, in order for something like the Holocaust to be able to happen. As well as the original designer's intent, there is the conscious intent in all those people who are a party to it, who support it or at least go along with it. The conscious intent which allowed the Holocaust to take place in Germany, and which allows genocide to continue unquestioned in countries in Africa today, is in the moment by moment choice of every thinking person to either consider what is happening, or to put the thought aside, to ignore it, to rationalise its existence in ways that fit into daily life without disturbing conscience, without requiring any change in the way we understand the world. > I read his response I don't see anything about it that is dismissive of > the horrible condition. You are aware of the thought that some people have, that the Holocaust happened because of the refusal by the Jews to convert to Christianity? IOW, the genocide was (and still is) "reasoned" in the minds of some as being due to the target people's own choices, decisions and actions. That belief was a factor in the toleration of the Holocaust, within that country at that time. Now the present situation in Africa is also being portrayed, similarly, as being in some way caused by the people's own actions. Both D Wright and Kim have expressed the thought: D Wright: Also, unlike the influenza pandemic, HIV is spread mostly through sexual contact. .[...]. The flu could be, and was, spread by casual contact. Kim: "When the men are raping little girls in the totally mindless and ignorant belief that that will cure them... well, what can anyone say?" Most of the people there live in families, these days being increasingly extended families due to the need to include orphans of siblings (virtually every surviving family carries several orphans) and/or surviving elderly parents of a deceased spouse. And there are a number of families where the head of that new household is still a child, being the oldest surviving member of the family. These are not usually weirdly promiscuous people (probably far more of those in the US): they are a weary, impoverished, famine-worn people who only try to survive. Among any group there will be weirdos of some form but the norm in most cases is most often the family unit, or what is left of it, taking in other survivors, particularly children. The thought that is being promoted in the media that they are a people who's actions in some way deserve or caused AIDS in their own communities, more than would be caused by the normal sexual behaviour of any people anywhere, - that thought is itself a part of the problem, in the same way as is the thought, "The real reason for the Holocaust is the Jews' choice to not convert". Both of those wrong thoughts tie the deaths of millions of innocent people to those people's own normal actions. They both attempt to provide an excuse for others to avoid thinking about what really might have happened, or why. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >The conscious intent which allowed the Holocaust to take place in Germany, >and which allows genocide to continue unquestioned in countries in Africa >today, I am not sure I follow. In Germany people were consciously exterminated. How can AIDS be stopped in the same way that people can stop killing people?? There is no cure for AIDS. AIDS in Africa is largely spread by unprotected sex. How can one force people to not engage in unprotected sex?? > is in the moment by moment choice of every thinking person to >either consider what is happening, or to put the thought aside, to ignore >it, to rationalise its existence in ways that fit into daily life without >disturbing conscience, without requiring any change in the way we >understand the world. If you were king how would you stop the AIDS epidemic?? Be specific. >You are aware of the thought that some people have, that the Holocaust >happened because of the refusal by the Jews to convert to Christianity? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Now the present situation in Africa is also being portrayed, similarly, as >being in some way caused by the people's own actions. Again what is your solution? There is no cure for AIDS. YOu can only act in a way to reduce your chances of getting it. Abstinence, not sharing needles, using condoms, etc. Aloha, Rich ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- The best defense to logic is ignorance > >The conscious intent which allowed the Holocaust to take place in > >Germany, and which allows genocide to continue unquestioned in countries > >in Africa today, > > I am not sure I follow. In Germany people were consciously > exterminated. And it happened because otherwise normal people went about their daily business, turned away, didn't want to get involved, didn't know how to deal with it and so simply accepted it or convinced themselves it wasn't really happening, certainly not in the way that it was or to the extent that it was. > How can AIDS be stopped in the same way that people can stop killing > people?? There are things that could be done to at least minimise future damage. > There is no cure for AIDS. AIDS in Africa is largely spread > by unprotected sex. How can one force people to not engage in > unprotected sex?? Providing condoms and education irt that would be one place to start. > > is in the moment by moment choice of every thinking person to > >either consider what is happening, or to put the thought aside, to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > If you were king how would you stop the AIDS epidemic?? Be specific. I'll give it some thought (and appreciate the chance to speak them here). Meantime, could you also consider this, whether or not you post a reply? If you were now in Germany in, say, '40-41, and were not a Jew and for some reason were not in the army, and suddenly became aware of what was happening - friends disappeared and so on, what would you do? How would you respond to the situation? Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling > > How can AIDS be stopped in the same way that people can stop killing > > people?? > There are things that could be done to at least minimise future damage. Like what? How can you FORCE them to use condoms, or to *not* be promiscuous? Don't say they are not promiscuous because if they were faithful to their mates there wouldn't be so much AIDS there. Virtually all cases of AIDS in these remote areas are from sexual contact. They have no access to needles or illegal drugs. From what I saw on that show the MEN are the ones who screw around and then infect their innocent wives. How do you FORCE these men, especially the young ones not yet infected to remain faithful to their wives? > > There is no cure for AIDS. AIDS in Africa is largely spread > > by unprotected sex. How can one force people to not engage in > > unprotected sex?? > Providing condoms and education irt that would be one place to start. That's being done. The men there are not keen on using condoms. And remember, they're dealing with a primitive, uneducated, superstitious society that still practices the abomination of female genital mutilation. Also, who PAYS for trying to educate them and handing out billions of condoms there? How would these educators armed with tons of condoms even reach some of those areas out in the jungles and bush? > > If you were king how would you stop the AIDS epidemic?? Be specific. > I'll give it some thought (and appreciate the chance to speak them here). > Meantime, could you also consider this, whether or not you post a reply? > If you were now in Germany in, say, '40-41, and were not a Jew and for some > reason were not in the army, and suddenly became aware of what was > happening - friends disappeared and so on, what would you do? How would > you respond to the situation? That's a hard one to answer unless you're in the situation. Some German's didn't know what was going on in the camps. Some did but feared for their own lives, some probably didn't care one way or the other, others hid Jews in their homes and barns taking a chance they'd lose their own lives. If I was a German at that time and KNEW they were exterminating them as though they were mere rats I probably would have tried to hide them. Where? That would depend on where I lived - city or farm, apartment or in a house. The German's were hiding Jews everywhere - from in their attics to crawlspaces under their homes, some hid them on their farms, in barns and animal pens. The fear of being killed is a powerful emotion that may have discouraged many Germans from speaking out or trying to help the Jews. We all have to make sure nothing like the holocaust ever happens again, anywhere on earth. SignatureKim The most amazing BS artists there are: http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Kim" <killspamheads@this-place.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:35 AM Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" > > > How can AIDS be stopped in the same way that people can stop killing > > > people?? > > > There are things that could be done to at least minimise future damage. > > Like what? I want to write a post just on that, as someone else asked also. > How can you FORCE them to use condoms, Force has nothing to do with it: the young people understood immediately it was explained to them, and from then on, used them whenever they were available. But they don't have money to buy them even if they're for sale, which often they are not - they are just not there anywhere in many country areas which are affected. And in most villages, they've never had family planning or sex education explained to them yet. Those young people who do begin to understand are often keen to go out themselves, in small groups, and tell others in surrounding villages, - to help educate, but even that costs a small amount and more than they have (which is often nothing at all). > or to *not* be promiscuous? They are no more promiscuous than any normal kid in the US, and very often much less so! - as they are tired, hungry, suffering malnutrition, and face endless days of trying to get food growing from their land and caring for many relatives, and are often sick themselves from other diseases such as malaria. > Don't say they are not promiscuous because if they were > faithful to their mates there wouldn't be so much AIDS there. Well the discussion ends right there, where your ugly prejudice is revealed. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling > From: "Kim" <killspamheads@this-place.net> > > Don't say they are not promiscuous because if they were > > faithful to their mates there wouldn't be so much AIDS there. ============== > Well the discussion ends right there, where your ugly prejudice is > revealed. What has this go to do with prejudice? Are you saying all the shows on TV, including the News shows covering the epidemic in Africa LIED? That the men got AIDS from .... what? They sure didn't get AIDS from digging roots for dinner, fishing at the river or hunting antelope now did they? Stop playing the *RACE CARD* as their color, race and religion have nothing to do with it and YOU know it! AIDS is spread in Africa mainly through sexual contact so admit it and deal with it! SignatureKim The most amazing BS artists there are: http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > From: "Kim" <killspamheads@this-place.net> > > > Don't say they are not promiscuous because if they were [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and YOU know it! AIDS is spread in Africa mainly through sexual contact so > admit it and deal with it! The picture in Africa is scary. In countries where armed conflicts keep arising, there are reports of large numbers of women being infected after being raped by infected soldiers. There have also been recurrent rumors there of AIDS being cured if the infected person has intercourse with a virgin -- & with little in the way of treatment for the disease, many very young girls have been infected by men who believed such nonsense. Polygamy in some situations has resulted in one infected person spreading HIV to their partners. In addition, in many regions it is almost always expected that a man will remarry if his wife dies & therefore monogamy isn't always the answer. Combine these factors with spotty diagnosis (because of social stigma & lack of testing materials/facilities/personnel) & the disaster that is happening is hardly surprising -- just profoundly tragic. Politics, economics, & (lack of) education about HIV are sentencing large numbers of people to death in Africa. > The picture in Africa is scary. In countries where armed conflicts > keep arising, there are reports of large numbers of women being > infected after being raped by infected soldiers. Yes. And these women in turn pass it on to the babies of these rapes, and their husbands. There have also been > recurrent rumors there of AIDS being cured if the infected person has > intercourse with a virgin -- & with little in the way of treatment for > the disease, many very young girls have been infected by men who > believed such nonsense. Yes, this is another known fact. And these little children, some as young as 6 years old, are now doomed themselves. A deadly disease is running loose in an ignorant and superstitious population - a true disaster. How could any nation afford to treat all the African victims? There are millions now infected there. Treatment wont cure them, just delay their demise and perhaps give them time to spread it to others who are uninfected. You can't stop people from having sex. The whole thing is a nightmare in S. Africa. Polygamy in some situations has resulted in > one infected person spreading HIV to their partners. In addition, in > many regions it is almost always expected that a man will remarry if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > economics, & (lack of) education about HIV are sentencing large > numbers of people to death in Africa. It is truly heart breaking but the problem seems insurmountable..... SignatureKim The most amazing BS artists there are: http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: "Kim" Free-of-quacks@last.net >Toby Joe plays the RACE CARD! Kim plays the new title card. PLONK! > >From: "Kim" Free-of-quacks@last.net > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > PLONK! Laughably, Jan once again pretends to killfile someone for the heinous crime of merely disagreeing with her worldview...that is, if Jan knows the meaning of "PLONK," which is not entirely clear. She may think it's just a generic insult like "paid shill." --Rich >From: "Kim" killspamheads@this-place.net >Date: 3/22/2004 10:35 AM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <QfqdnVwAqf5ArMLdRVn-uQ@heartoftn.net> >Kim (agnostic) >The most amazing BS artists there are: Complements of Ted Nidiffer (atheist) who hides behind the name of Nanaweedkiller http://nazigirl.jandrew.wasarrested.com/S-IN/Bloomington/prostitute/F http://ilena.rose.wasarrested.com/San+Jose/crack/F Are you saying that Kim is Nanna? If so, why? (Why do you say it?) > >From: "Kim" killspamheads@this-place.net > >Date: 3/22/2004 10:35 AM Pacific Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Complements of Ted Nidiffer (atheist) who hides behind the name of > Nanaweedkiller Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" >From: Toby Joe tobyj@emailaccount.com >Date: 3/22/2004 12:31 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20040322153136.151$sh@newsreader.com> > >Are you saying that Kim is Nanna? No, Ted Nidiffer is Nana. He posts despiicable lying websites as I posted. He also helped Happy Oyster with the lying website about non existent naturopathymafia. Jan From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:50 AM Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" > >Toby Joe <tobyj@emailaccount.com> wrote: > >> > Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the word "genocide" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > And I still don't understand why you are taking such great offense at > David's comment He reduced an almost unimaginably vast human tragedy to an argument over semantics. As well, his use of words suggests that the people caused it themselves, in the same kind of half-hidden argument which preaches that the Jews non-acceptance of Christian Church Dogma was what caused the Holocaust in Germany. The same principles are operating. > nor why you prefer your definition of genocide over the dictionary's. Greater minds than mine have described the AIDS pandemic in that way. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:50 AM [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >He reduced an almost unimaginably vast human tragedy to an argument over >semantics. On the contrary, I took offense at your trivializing the use of the word "genocide." You can call AIDS a tragedy, a disaster of monstrous proportions, or any of a lot of other things and I will agree with you. But don't call it genocide, because it's not f.cking genocide, and you can look the word up in a dictionary if you believe me. >As well, his use of words suggests that the people caused it themselves, No more than any other infectious disease. However, I was trying to make the point that unlike, say, influenza, which is going to spread pretty much regardless of what we might do to stop it, HIV is spread primarily through sexual contact and is therefore preventable, at least in principle. I'm quite aware that there are huge practical obstacles to doing this, but it's at least *possible*. I am not suggesting that most of the victims of AIDS in any way "deserve" what they got. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >He reduced an almost unimaginably vast human tragedy to an argument over > >semantics. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > But don't call it genocide I've spent considerable time looking for the original statement, in context. I thought that I had read it directly, myself. However, while the search turned up many references to his (K.A's) having said that, not one checks out in an original statement by he himself. I have not read every single "off the cuff" press statement that he could possibly have made, but enough of the relevant ones to cause me to think that he was in fact misquoted. I don't know that for certain, but it is looking like it. He referred to AIDS as a "weapon of mass destruction", within the same interview in which he was talking about the "devastation of a generation". The next thing was a BBC reporter presenting that interview about a week later, in a way that was taken up on by many others. I have read the transcript of the entire interview which is given as the general reference whenever people make that statement, and it is not there. Only the "Weapon of mass destruction" phrase. Maybe he did give another brief interview somewhere at nearly the same time, which was not recorded, and said something _like_ that, but there is no evidence of it. So, unless or until such evidence should magically appear, I have to apologise. I have found no evidence to show that he did say that, and my actions were a direct result of believing that he had said it. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >> >He reduced an almost unimaginably vast human tragedy to an argument over >> >semantics. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >apologise. I have found no evidence to show that he did say that, and my >actions were a direct result of believing that he had said it. Fair enough. But now we'll have to find something else to argue about. Oh no! How will we *ever* find a topic? :-) -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >So, unless or until such evidence should magically appear, I have to > >apologise. I have found no evidence to show that he did say that, and > >my actions were a direct result of believing that he had said it. > > Fair enough. But now we'll have to find something else to argue > about. Oh no! How will we *ever* find a topic? :-) heh. tj Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >Are you saying that Kim is Nanna? > >If so, why? (Why do you say it?) Let me chime in, if I may. You see, Jan has a nasty habit (ok, she has several) of accusing people of being other people. Case in point: Jan thinks that I, Ilsa, am a guy named Andrew, a Licensed Acupuncturist. Jan thought that Andrew was another guy, named Aaron Fox and before that, she thought Andrew was here own "atheist Phd brother". Jan also thinks that Rich S is Aloha Rich because they are both named Rich and live in Hawaii, though on different islands. Jan has many delusional beliefs and this is just the most recent. >> >From: "Kim" killspamheads@this-place.net >> >Date: 3/22/2004 10:35 AM Pacific Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Complements of Ted Nidiffer (atheist) who hides behind the name of >> Nanaweedkiller >From: ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9 (MHA Needs More Skeptics) >Date: 3/22/2004 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <20040322173642.20899.00000171@mb-m27.aol.com> Andrew/Ilsa is just one of life's failures.His sole purpose in life is to serve to remind decent folk what decent really means.I guess you could say that his role creates comfort for many people so that they can read what comes up from the bottom of the cesspool.It is a tough job Andrew has taken on but he certainly is imminently qualified to wade up to his neck in the wastage of his own life. > From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> > > > Still, the issue David raises is over the use of the word "genocide" > > which implies concious intent. If there had been no maniaical sociopath but rather, say, random groups of people causing the disappearances, and then a gradual tolerance of the disappearances due to spreading beliefs that "They sort of deserve it", "They are to blame", "There's nothing we can do about it", and even, "It is not happening, or not to that extent", ...until the majority of the population silently allowed it and the 6 mill were gone, I would still call that genocide. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM >Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" > HIV is a naturally occuring virus, most likely indigenous to Africa. No, what happened is not "natural". "Exactly how SIVcpz was transmitted to humans to re-emerge as HIV is not known." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2985596.stm What is happening with transgenic diseases is something else again. Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> wrote > HIV is an extremely equal opportunity killer. Yep, sure is. Kills everyone equally. Except a few older people who survived many famines, and a large number of orphans. > It is, however, not a premediated killer. "Exactly how SIVcpz was transmitted to humans to re-emerge as HIV is not known." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2985596.stm > Ascribing to it a motive Nope, motives are in people, not in diseases. > to eliminate a specific group of people within the world population > doesn't seem accurate. And such would be the response when kleine Herr jonjon tried to question his teacher about the great fuerher's possible role in some legendary "ovens" and "chambers". (Long after they'd won the war.) "Nein, Nein, Nein, mein freund!!! ...Est ist nich zehr gut ... to think like that..." And if it began to be seriously condemned, without knowing who had been the instigator, there might well be heard, > That, in no way, attempts to diminish the horrors... [and no, I am not say that "is what has happened". Just that, as I've begun to look into it, more questions arise than do answers, and where answers seem to have been provided, they don't add up.] Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >>From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >>Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >What is happening with transgenic diseases is something else again. My, my, my, what a leap of non-logic. The fact that we don't know how something happened does not mean that this is something deliberate. All your quotation says is that it "is not known." You immediately leap to the unwarranted conclusion that whatever happened is not "natural." Pfui. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >> From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >population silently allowed it and the 6 mill were gone, I would still >call that genocide. So would I. But whether or not it was organized by some central authority or was just carried out by small random groups, it was still deliberate. Viruses do not have conscious intent. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >> From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >population silently allowed it and the 6 mill were gone, I would still >call that genocide. And I still don't understand why you are taking such great offense at David's comment nor why you prefer your definition of genocide over the dictionary's. >>> From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >And I still don't understand why you are taking such great offense at David's >comment nor why you prefer your definition of genocide over the dictionary's. I believe it is because she interpreted David's comments as suggesting that he did not think that the HIV/AIDS situation was a serious one resulting in countless deaths. You see perception creates its own reality. Aloha, Rich ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- The best defense to logic is ignorance From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:31 AM Subject: Re: Kofi Annan vs ... Mr "David Wright" > >From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> > >Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:05 AM [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I don't understand if that is intended as an answer. > HIV is an epidemic, a disease, and not a genocidal maniac. I was answering that question of yours, above. You asked if HIV is qualitatively worse than some of the other causes of death. Because it is target specific to young and mid-range adults, it is taking out the active workforce, those who would be planting the next years crops, the nurses, the teachers, the parents, - the heart or the driving force of the population, and leaving the very old and the very young. No other diseases or tragedies have stats like these: AIDS Orphans Numbers by region: www.unicef.org/sowc02/g31.htm www.unicef.org/sowc02/g32.htm Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:31 AM [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I was answering that question of yours, above. You asked if HIV is >qualitatively worse than some of the other causes of death. Is it? >Because it is target specific to young and mid-range adults, Target specific? I don't understand. In Africa, as elsewhere, there are infants, children, adolescents, and older adults with it. It is NOT target specific, at least not in any sense of the word I'm aware of. > it is >taking out the active workforce, those who would be planting the next years >crops, the nurses, the teachers, the parents, - the heart or the driving >force of the population, and leaving the very old and the very young. No >other diseases or tragedies have stats like these: Well, I think Small Pox, TB, Bubonic Plague, Polio, and various Flu have done similar if not worse. Those diseases are even more communicable and Polio has a non-human resevoir. > >From: "MHA Needs More Skeptics" <ilsa9w@aol.comSKEPTIC9> > >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:31 AM [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > similar if not worse. Those diseases are even more communicable and Polio has > a non-human resevoir. Malaria is actually a bigger killer worldwide than HIV/AIDS. Yellow fever could be if it ever reached Asia, which it mercifully and mysteriously has not. (Asia has ample Aedes sp. mosquitoes and the bulk of the world's non-immune population to make a perfect setup for an epidemic that would be unprecedented in human devastation. Vaccination and mosquito-control measures could not be implemented fast enough to save millions of tropical Asians.) None of these killers can be attributed to human agency, though, in spite of Toby Joe's (Kofi Annin's?) label of genocide. In a few decades, when most of the world's population is unvaccinated for smallpox, a terrorist act of unthinkable horror could wipe out much of the human population of the planet. The release of the virus in one or more international airports would kill literally billions. Genocide is a word for the murder of a race. Is there a word for the murder of a species? --Rich >From: "Uniquely Ilsa9.00a1" <ilsa9w@aol.comEOMCamp> >Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:50 AM [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >I think there was conscious intent in raising a question over the use of >the word. The same conscious intent that is seen in many other attempts, Well, who gives a rat's a.s what you think? If you think. I could just as easily say that I think you're deliberately cheapening the use of the word "genocide" when you use it to describe the results of a disease. I think you're trying to downplay the horrors of what the Nazis did, of what has happened in Rwanda and elsewhere. There, Toby. How do YOU like it? >If someone feels they have a real problem with the word usage then they >should take it up with Kofi Annan. However I note that the diversion into >semantics has, once again, successfully derailed a discussion of a >"difficult" topic. Since when is HIV an alternative health topic in the first place? Unless you have an alternative-health treatment for it. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >I think there was conscious intent in raising a question over the use of > >the word. The same conscious intent that is seen in many other attempts, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of a disease. I think you're trying to downplay the horrors of what > the Nazis did, of what has happened in Rwanda and elsewhere. =============== I agree! What has a disease got to do with genocide - the deliberate killing of certain peoples? AIDS is an equal opportunity killer. SignatureKim The most amazing BS artists there are: http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Kim" <killspamheads@this-place.net> squeaked loudly: > AIDS is an equal opportunity killer. Within the bloated, spoiled nations, where people groan under the weight of their obesity problems, stapling their stomachs and hacking the fat off their faces and wobbling chins, - for sure: it's "equal opp for all". Between those nations of the fat and those who are thankful if they have one bowl of nsima a day; where getting water to wash or drink means _at least_ a 15 - 20 minute walk each way, carrying the jugs on their heads, and the water that they find is already poisoned from runoff and animal scum; where an operation includes someone standing nearby to swat off the flies... equal for all, only who are the "all". Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling > "Kim" <killspamheads@this-place.net> squeaked loudly: > > > AIDS is an equal opportunity killer. > Within the bloated, spoiled nations, where people groan under the weight of > their obesity problems, stapling their stomachs and hacking the fat off > their faces and wobbling chins, - for sure: it's "equal opp for all". What does obesity have to do with AIDS? People are obese because they eat too much and don't move enough. Obesity isn't a disease....??!!?!?!? > Between those nations of the fat and those who are thankful if they have > one bowl of nsima a day; where getting water to wash or drink means _at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > flies... > equal for all, only who are the "all". They are the "all." If their lives are so hard in a particular area why stay there? They're as free to move to another place as we are - are they not? Also - what about birth-control? It's clear that these people do not BELIEVE in any form of BC. Some of these unfortunate women, married as young as 13 and 14 years old, have 10 or more children before they succumb to some birthing complication or other disease. Preventing AIDS is as important as teaching them about BC methods or supplying them with free vasectomies and tubal ligations. Their environment clearly isn't capable of supporting such huge families. SignatureKim The most amazing BS artists there are: http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote: >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I disagree. The post was totally geared to do exactly that. And so, is >loathsome. It was geared to do nothing of the sort. If that's what you saw in it, the problem is within you, not me. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >> Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David said? I > >> don't think that he was trying to diminish or play down the great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It was geared to do nothing of the sort. If that's what you saw in > it, the problem is within you, not me. Note the difference in the two responses: Ilsa had asked "Why do you think that?" - a humane and sane response, for which I'm thankful. The other reply simply denies any possibility (of anything), and suggests that if someone questions their post then that person must have "a problem". (Oddly, I have met that kind of response before, though in discussions with a quite different poster. - What have they done with the original DW?) >> >> Toby, why do you take such strong exception to what David said? I >> >> don't think that he was trying to diminish or play down the great [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Ilsa had asked "Why do you think that?" - a humane and sane response, for >which I'm thankful. For which you also apparently have no answer. >The other reply simply denies any possibility (of anything), and suggests >that if someone questions their post then that person must have "a >problem". Remember, admitting you have a problem is the first step towards finding a solution. You're welcome. >(Oddly, I have met that kind of response before, though in discussions with >a quite different poster. - What have they done with the original DW?) Beg pardon? -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >Thank heavens the UN does not have some puffed up, pompous, arrogant, >blind, deaf, dont'wanna-know, self rightious, middle class KNOW NOTHING >to lead it. Yeah, Kofi Annan is not middle class, and is about to have his hiney handed to him on a Ag platter for violating the 'oil-for-food' UN/Iraqi plan. As are the French, the Germans, and a host of other co-conspirators. This shoud prove interesting.. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wrote: > Yeah, Kofi Annan is not middle class, and is about to have > his hiney handed to him on a Ag platter for violating the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > This shoud prove interesting.. America, your ambassadors here on the 'Net are doing a fine diplomatic job. [even in sarcastic mode, it is difficult to write those words] Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >America, your ambassadors here on the 'Net are doing a fine diplomatic job. >[even in sarcastic mode, it is difficult to write those words] Whassamattayou? Have you forgotten the attack of September 11 ? TJ, even your country is deeply involved in the war against international terrorism. You know in your heart that there is only one solution, distasteful as it may be, why do you resist the only workable solution? This is not the forum for this discussion and I will not expound here. You may contact me privately to discuss this matter. Cheers, -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wrote: >Toby Joe wrote:> > >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wrote: > Whassamattayou? Seems like every time the subject of HIV/AIDS in Africa turns up, there is a rush to squelch open discussion, or to at least dismiss it as being of any real consequence. (Not saying it's how it is, but how it seems, and _that_ is why my reaction.) > Have you forgotten the attack of September 11 ? What on earth does that have to do with it? > TJ, even your country is deeply involved in the war against > international terrorism. Just one question: is HIV/AIDS mixed into all that somehow? Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling >>Toby Joe wrote:> Excuse me if I misunderstood the basic question. >> Whassamattayou? > >Seems like every time the subject of HIV/AIDS in Africa turns up, there is >a rush to squelch open discussion, or to at least dismiss it as being of >any real consequence. (Not saying it's how it is, but how it seems, and >_that_ is why my reaction.) I thought that we were talking about terrorism. >> Have you forgotten the attack of September 11 ? > >What on earth does that have to do with it? Perhaps it is my mistake. >> TJ, even your country is deeply involved in the war against >> international terrorism. > >Just one question: is HIV/AIDS mixed into all that somehow? Do you wish to discuss "HIV/AIDS" in relation to global economics or as an 'infectious disease' ? Or are there other socio-economic rammifications that you wish to explore ? Global implications are not relevant if you refuse to define a continental subdivision, and interactive population. Just for your edification, according to the world health orginazation as of 2001 (or there about) HIV/AIDS was 13th on the list of most common causes of death according to world-wide statistics. I leave it to you to look up the top ten. Let's have a good conversation TJ and ignore those who wish to stifle the true exchange of information. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wrote: > On 21 Mar 2004 03:38:34 GMT, Toby Joe > > Just for your edification, according to the world health orginazation > as of 2001 (or there about) HIV/AIDS was 13th on the list of most > common causes of death according to world-wide statistics. Consider this, just for a moment, WB: Imagine if Germany had won WW II; if the Holocaust had continued and then fallen into the history books. Then one day little jonjon raises a question in class: "I heard that a lot of people died back then, - all together. They called them the Jews." The teacher replies, "Don't you go worrying about it jonboy. What happened then concerned on 13% of the population!" Or whatever percent.. It may be 13th down on "the list", but for those countries where every third person has HIV, it is rather more of an issue than a number on a list. But who cares? They're a long way off, - far away and insignificant, Who knows, are they even human beings? It is not as if it were a "real" holocaust, - I mean, one in three - HEck!! two out of three of them ain't even infected yet!!! C'mon!!! This is WAAAYYY toooo soon to start thinking about it. (What religion did you say they are? Many Christian? But they're black ones, aren't they. Probably promiscuous. Got what they deserve...) Signature"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply." R. Serling > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > (What religion did you say they are? Many Christian? But they're black > ones, aren't they. Probably promiscuous. Got what they deserve...) Toby, I'm confused by your posts. You are comparing the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa with the Holocaust and calling it "genocide." Does this mean that you believe that AIDS in Africa is caused by human agency with evil intent? If so, please specify who you believe is responsible for this crime and the means you believe they used to commit it. There are campaigns of genocide ongoing in Africa, warfare stemming from tribal rivalries of hundreds of years. But AIDS is pandemic, no respecter of race, politics, or tribal ancestry. If AIDS is a genocidal weapon, it is a pretty clumsy one, akin to using a thermonuclear bomb to remove a crack house. --Rich > "Toby Joe" <tobyj@emailaccount.com> wrote in message soon to start thinking about it. What religion did you say they are? Many Christian? But they're black > > ones, aren't they. Probably promiscuous. Got what they deserve...) ==================================== > Toby, I'm confused by your posts. You are comparing the HIV/AIDS epidemic in > Africa with the Holocaust and calling it "genocide." Does this mean that you > believe that AIDS in Africa is caused by human agency with evil intent? That's sure the impression I'm getting. He seems to feel this was somehow caused??!?!?! And no one cares because the victims are black. What nonsense. What does he expect the world to do? AIDS is everywhere..... If > so, please specify who you believe is responsible for this crime and the > means you believe they used to commit it. I eagerly await his answer to this question. > There are campaigns of genocide ongoing in Africa, warfare stemming from > tribal rivalries of hundreds of years. But AIDS is pandemic, no respecter of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > --Rich Toby's posts sound like he believes there was some kind of wicked conspiracy involved. SignatureKim The most amazing BS artists there are: http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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