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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / July 2009

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Vaccines and Neurological Damage

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rpautrey2 - 21 Jun 2009 05:52 GMT
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
••••Meningitis Paralysis
•Paralytis polio
•Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
••Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
•Demyelinization diseases
•Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
•Convulsions - Seizures
•••••Mental confusion - lowered IQ
•Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.
mindy - 22 Jun 2009 02:52 GMT
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.

Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.  I only have
one objection, and I'm not worried about the attacks to come, because
I've already been attacked on here for this very statement...  "In MY
son's case" I KNOW that vaccines were not the cause of his ASD
because... (shame on me) he has never been vaccinated. That is not to
say I don't believe  that it may play a significant part in someone
elses case.

Children in the US are bombarded at a much younger age and with a
higher number of vaccines than children in any other country in the
world!  I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.  I've also read
somewhere(when I find the site I'll post a link)that in certain
countries they pasteurize or heat the vaccines in the making of them,
which would help get rid of the contaminates that might be in them
which adds a level of safety.  If the US has started doing this as
well, I would love to know about it.  As of today, I have not found
anything online that says they do.

Keep up the good research and thank you for sharing this information.
Mark Probert - 22 Jun 2009 03:12 GMT
> >http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
>
> Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.

Posting a Mercola article is the antithesis of bravery. It is just
lazy and dumb.

Most of Mercola's drivel is designed to help him sell something from
his commercial website.

 I only have
> one objection, and I'm not worried about the attacks to come, because
> I've already been attacked on here for this very statement...  "In MY
> son's case" I KNOW that vaccines were not the cause of his ASD
> because... (shame on me) he has never been vaccinated.

Oh, so you admit you are a parasite.

That is not to
> say I don't believe  that it may play a significant part in someone
> elses case.

Your beliefs are meaningless.

> Children in the US are bombarded at a much younger age and with a
> higher number of vaccines than children in any other country in the
> world!

While the number of vaccines has increased, the number of antigens has
decreased. Thus, less stimulus to the immune system.

 I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
> in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.

Not all shots have a full virus. Some just the antigens.

 I've also read
> somewhere(when I find the site I'll post a link)that in certain
> countries they pasteurize or heat the vaccines in the making of them,
> which would help get rid of the contaminates that might be in them
> which adds a level of safety.  If the US has started doing this as
> well, I would love to know about it.  As of today, I have not found
> anything online that says they do.

Have you found anything to prove your claim.

> Keep up the good research and thank you for sharing this information.-

Mercola is NOT good research. It is not even bad research.
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 00:26 GMT
> > >http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 172 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Here is a link.  There are thousands more if you just google it.

http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 00:34 GMT
> > > >http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 178 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

And here is another.... http://www.nvic.org/nvic-archives/testimony.aspx

Of course, there is little to nothing saying vaccine's cause ASD, I've
never claimed they do.
Terry Jones - 22 Jun 2009 09:12 GMT
>Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.

Unfortunately courage has no bearing on whether a belief is right or
not. The Nazi military were just as courageous as those of the Allies,
suicide bombers are "brave" enough to sacrifice their lives for their
beliefs, as were those who flew the planes into the World Trade
Center.

>I only have
>one objection, and I'm not worried about the attacks to come, because
>I've already been attacked on here for this very statement...  "In MY
>son's case" I KNOW that vaccines were not the cause of his ASD
>because... (shame on me) he has never been vaccinated.

My "personal experience" objection is that as a late diagnosed
autistic (dx at age 52), and knowing others in similar circumstances,
I know that at least part of the "epidemic" is false - People with so
called "higher functioning" autism were simply not recognised, and now
they are.

[I would also note that I suffered from, but fortunately survived
largely unscathed, measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, and had a
friend at school who survived but had long term damage from polio.]

The previous poster rightly notes that there have been previous false
"causes" of autism such as the "Refrigerator Mother" theory - But
fails to go on and apply the same logic to his? own theories.

Their resorting to emotive language such as "the Doctor's cold
needles" is suggestive of an argument which doesn't stand up well on
its' own merits alone.

>Children in the US are bombarded at a much younger age and with a
>higher number of vaccines than children in any other country in the
>world!

Is that really the case, or does it just feel like that to people who
live there? - A quick look at the WHO / UNICEF numbers suggests that
may not be the situation (caveat, I haven't done any detailed
number-crunching). And since they're trying to promote "western"
standards of vaccination worldwide, it seems unlikely that they would
underreport.

>I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
>in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.

Except that nature doesn't wait on our convenience - The numbers vary,
but about 1 in every 3 children dying *in their first year* seems to
be the average for 19th century Britain.

(Of course we have the advantage of piped water and sewage systems,
but there are a lot of non-waterborne diseases too).

[And for those who espouse an inflammatory model of autism, I wonder
about the inflammatory effects of chronic infections and parasites?]
Signature


Terry

Gareeth - 22 Jun 2009 18:26 GMT
> > Is that really the case, or does it just feel like that to people who
> live there? - A quick look at the WHO / UNICEF numbers suggests that
> may not be the situation (caveat, I haven't done any detailed
> number-crunching). And since they're trying to promote "western"
> standards of vaccination worldwide, it seems unlikely that they would
> underreport.

When Japan altered it's vaccination schedule some years back now there was
absoloutely no impact on the incidence of autism. Other countries have also
tried spacing them out more or breaking them up and again there is no change
found. The people who believe that it is the vaccines however will cling to
that notion in the face of a mounting body of evidence of a lack of
relation. That would be fine if it wasn't resulting in an increase in
unvaccinated people to the point where herd immunity is dropping to
unacceptable levels and children are once again dying of diseases they could
have and should have been protected against.

Gareeth
Stephen Wilson - 22 Jun 2009 20:36 GMT
>>I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
>>in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> [And for those who espouse an inflammatory model of autism, I wonder
> about the inflammatory effects of chronic infections and parasites?]

The fact right now is that we don't know what causes autism. However, we do
know what causes mumps, rubella and measles.

We don't know how to prevent a child from being autistic. We do know how to
stop them getting measles, mumps and rubella.

Maybe, in a few years, someone will work out that there are a particular set
of genes that are responsible. If that is the case (and it doesn't seem
unlikely to me), I wonder how many of the people who today blame
vaccinations would have chosen to have their babies aborted if the faulty
gene(s) had been detected in them prior to birth?
Mark Probert - 22 Jun 2009 23:22 GMT
On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> >>I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
> >>in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> The fact right now is that we don't know what causes autism. However, we do
> know what causes mumps, rubella and measles.

There is ample evdience that genetics plays a major role.

> We don't know how to prevent a child from being autistic. We do know how to
> stop them getting measles, mumps and rubella.

Quite true. More and more these days, one method is staying away from
the anti-vaccination parasites.

> Maybe, in a few years, someone will work out that there are a particular set
> of genes that are responsible. If that is the case (and it doesn't seem
> unlikely to me), I wonder how many of the people who today blame
> vaccinations would have chosen to have their babies aborted if the faulty
> gene(s) had been detected in them prior to birth?

That is a scary thought. The way the anti-vaccinationist speak of
their autistic children, I am surprised that more of them do not do
post-birth abortion.
rpautrey2 - 22 Jun 2009 23:47 GMT
> On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Vaccines and Neurological Damage
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
••••Meningitis Paralysis
•Paralytis polio
•Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
••Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
•Demyelinization diseases
•Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
•Convulsions - Seizures
•••••Mental confusion - lowered IQ
•Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 03:50 GMT
>Vaccines and Neurological Damage
>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
>blindness and SIDS.

Mercola is a very dangerous charlatan who makes big friendship with nearly every
quackery he can get his hands on.

The FTC is on his heels, and it already put the thumbs down on him.

Signature

"Wenn du eine Frau siehst, denke, es sei der Teufel!
Sie ist eine Art Hölle!"   (Papst Pius II., 1405-1464)

Mehr über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:15 GMT
>>Vaccines and Neurological Damage
>>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> The FTC is on his heels, and it already put the thumbs down on him.

   Du bist wannsinnig!

> Mehr über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de
Happy Oyster - 25 Jun 2009 11:31 GMT
>> "Wenn du eine Frau siehst, denke, es sei der Teufel!
>> Sie ist eine Art Hölle!"   (Papst Pius II., 1405-1464)
>
>    Du bist wannsinnig!

It is a quote of what Pope Pius II said. If you consider him insane: I have no
objections.

>> Mehr über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob Officer - 23 Jun 2009 04:20 GMT
>> On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>Vaccines and Neurological Damage
>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

It was explained to you before, mercola is not an authority.

Citing his web page isn't not evidence.

<snip>

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

mindy - 23 Jun 2009 05:01 GMT
> On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Citing his web page isn't not evidence.

How about the US gov't and witnesses from vaccine manufacturers?

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&doc
id=f:91047.wais


> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 17:32 GMT
> > On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_h...

Burton bullshit.

> > <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 21:47 GMT
> > > On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Troll!
Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 22:35 GMT
> > > > On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> Troll!-

Awww...Mindy, I am so not hurt. Your anti-vaccination bullshit appears
right on que. Burton is an idiot who held "hearings" where every anti-
vaccination merchant of infectious disease, disability and death was
paraded before a hearing room.

Here is a definition of Troll:

troll /v.,n./ [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a
posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames.
Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes
from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails
bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed
troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make
themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly
conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a
deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on
it.

Now, since I regularly post to m.h.a. and m.k.h. and only post to
a.s.a. because of crossposting, I submit that it is YOU who slithered
into the two former groups and began trolling. In fact, your first
post in this thread anticipated you would be attacked.

Therefore, it is YOU who are the troll. Now, back under your bridge.
They do have bridges where you live?
Bob Officer - 23 Jun 2009 22:18 GMT
>> On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
>http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&doc
id=f:91047.wais

Studies Find No Evidence That SV40 is Related to Human Cancer,
http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/SV40
National Cancer Institute, National Institutes of Health website,
Posted: 08/23/2004, Updated: 03/01/2005

Antibody Responses to Simian Virus 40 T Antigen: A Case-Control Study
of Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma,
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/14/2/521
Eric A. Engels, Jinbo Chen, Patricia Hartge, James R. Cerhan, Scott
Davis, Richard K. Severson, Wendy Cozen and Raphael P. Viscidi,
Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention Vol. 14, 521-524,
February 2005

Cancer Incidence in Denmark Following Exposure to Poliovirus Vaccine
Contaminated With Simian Virus 40,
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/7/532
Eric A. Engels, Hormuzd A. Katki, Nete M. Nielsen, Jeanette F.
Winther, Henrik Hjalgrim, Flemming Gjerris, Philip S. Rosenberg,
Morten Frisch, Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Vol. 95, No.
7, 532-539, April 2, 2003

Shah KV (2007). "SV40 and human cancer: a review of recent data".
Int. J. Cancer 120 (2): 215–23. doi:10.1002/ijc.22425
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17131333

Considering the 2007 review of data says that Honorable Mr Buton was
posturing for the public in a venue which he could make statements
often not really supported by relevant data.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

D. C. Sessions - 26 Jul 2009 04:46 GMT
> How about the US gov't and witnesses from vaccine manufacturers?
>
> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&doc
id=f:91047.wais

I don't see any factual evidence there -- just people, like here, with
axes to grind pinging off of each other for mutual admiration.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
Jan Drew - 23 Jun 2009 05:55 GMT
>>> On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> <snip>

Restored plus studies.

http://www.newstarget.com/z020866.html

NewsTarget.com printable article
Originally published October 24 2006
Four people die after flu vaccination shots
(NewsTarget) Four people died after being injected with the flu vaccine, the
Health Ministry of Israel reported yesterday. Before receiving the flu
inoculations, three of the four individuals were suffering from several
chronic ailments, including heart disease and diabetes. A fourth
recipient -- a 67-year-old man -- suffered from serious heart disease. He
was found dead on a city street a few hours after receiving the flu vaccine
shot from his wife, a dentist.
The flu vaccine in question was made and distributed by the French
pharmaceutical firm Sanofi-Aventis. Sanofi-Aventis markets the vaccine all
over the world, and it was determined that all four deaths occurred in
people who had been inoculated with vaccine from the same series made by the
company.

The Health Ministry of Israel said Sunday that Sanofi-Aventis had been asked
whether unexplained fatalities had been reported in any other country. An
answer to this question was expected Monday, but if no other reports are
uncovered, inoculations will be allowed to continue, according to Israeli
Health Minister Ben-Yizri.

The Israeli Health Ministry has begun looking into possible sources of
contamination -- but so far none have been found in the actual vaccine. At
this time, 140,000 people have been inoculated. The Health Ministry has
started an investigation into the medical team at the Kiryat Gat clinic
where three of the four victims received their flu shots from the same
nurse.

However, the head of the national center for disease monitoring in the
Health Ministry -- Professor Manfred Green -- reassured a cautious public
this past Sunday by stating that there may be a simple statistical
explanation for the four deaths, by saying "About 100 people die every day
in Israel from chronic diseases. These four individuals could be part of
that group."

Yitzhak Berlovitch, deputy director of the Health Ministry, stated that no
cases have ever been documented in Israel of deaths after flu inoculations.
There had not yet been any autopsies performed on the four victims because
"the Health Ministry has no justification for doing so," according to
Berlovitch.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=9017255&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=2198876&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=1677837&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.

Joshi JG.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Tennessee, Knoxville 37996-0840.

1. Aluminum is an established neurotoxin. Prolonged exposure to even low
levels of aluminum permit its chelation and subsequent transport to brain
where it is non-uniformly distributed. 2. Available evidence suggests that
(i) aluminum interferes with glucose metabolism by inhibiting hexokinase and
glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; (ii) it binds to calmodulin and affects
numerous phosphorylation-dephosphorylation reactions; (iii) it binds to
transferrin and ferritin, affects the function of these proteins which in
turn affect iron metabolism. 3. Thus accumulation of aluminum-induced
metabolic errors colocalized in specific areas of the brain may lead to
neurological disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15202764&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11746431&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11470325&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum


Posting advertising and lies deleted.
Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 19:18 GMT
>Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
>mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.

Jan Drew is no medical doctopr, nor is he a scientist.

Jan Drew even is too dumb to quote.

Signature

"Die Frau ist ein Mißgriff der Natur... mit ihrem Feuchtigkeits-Überschuß
und ihrer Untertemperatur körperlich und geistig minderwertiger... eine
Art verstümmelter, verfehlter, mißlungener Mann...die volle Verwirklichung
der menschlichen Art ist nur der Mann."
Thomas von Aquin, hl., Kirchenlehrer, 1225-1274
Heilsames über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:29 GMT
>>Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
>>mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.
>
> Jan Drew is no medical doctopr, nor is he a scientist.
>
> Jan Drew even is too dumb to quote.

   Du bist sehr dumm....
Happy Oyster - 25 Jun 2009 11:31 GMT
>>>Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
>>>mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>    Du bist sehr dumm....

Interesting to see how the guys show up in diguises. Now, who is one of the many
identities of the Jan Drew?

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob Officer - 23 Jun 2009 21:55 GMT
<snip>

>http://www.newstarget.com/z020866.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>(NewsTarget) Four people died after being injected with the flu vaccine, the
>Health Ministry of Israel reported yesterday.

Note this line here.

>Before receiving the flu
>inoculations, three of the four individuals were suffering from several
>chronic ailments, including heart disease and diabetes. A fourth

With all inoculations  in the US there is a set of questions asked.
Do you have a fever or suffer from any chronic illness. The reason
that question is asked is people with certain chronic illnesses needs
to be careful of drug interactions, and in some cases the drugs they
take weaken an already compromised system.

>recipient -- a 67-year-old man -- suffered from serious heart disease. He

"Serious"?

>was found dead on a city street a few hours after receiving the flu vaccine
>shot from his wife, a dentist.

A dentist gave him a flu shot?

>The flu vaccine in question was made and distributed by the French
>pharmaceutical firm Sanofi-Aventis. Sanofi-Aventis markets the vaccine all
>over the world, and it was determined that all four deaths occurred in
>people who had been inoculated with vaccine from the same series made by the
>company.

They know this was the same by looking at batch numbers?

>The Health Ministry of Israel said Sunday that Sanofi-Aventis had been asked
>whether unexplained fatalities had been reported in any other country. An
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>where three of the four victims received their flu shots from the same
>nurse.

Wait, one of the people got their shot from their wife a dentist...
didn't they? Who actually gave the shot a nurse or a dentist?

Can anyone else see the problem with this "news report"?

>However, the head of the national center for disease monitoring in the
>Health Ministry -- Professor Manfred Green -- reassured a cautious public
>this past Sunday by stating that there may be a simple statistical
>explanation for the four deaths, by saying "About 100 people die every day
>in Israel from chronic diseases. These four individuals could be part of
>that group."

Amazing. of the 140,000 people inoculated, only 4 people died? and 4
of the four already had "serious" or "chronic" health issues?

>Yitzhak Berlovitch, deputy director of the Health Ministry, stated that no
>cases have ever been documented in Israel of deaths after flu inoculations.
>There had not yet been any autopsies performed on the four victims because
>"the Health Ministry has no justification for doing so," according to
>Berlovitch.

Really? Then all the shouting is a much to do about nothing, isn't
it.

>> Bob Officer
> Posting advertising and lies deleted.

You need to learn urls in signatures are not advertising.  if you
call them such you are lying.

Since you are the person making the charge. show my in the RFC and
usenet documentation where a URL in a signature is explicitly
classified as advertisements.

JanBOT is to much a hypocrite to point out the all the mercola ULR's
have ads on the displayed pages.

Even References to Google's so-called "archives" have ads.

I put forward that JanBot is a hypocrite
as well as a control freak.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 22:37 GMT
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:55:53 -0400, in misc.health.alternative, "Jan
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> Can anyone else see the problem with this "news report"?

Bob, the popular name for NewsTarget is NewTURD.

But, you did a great analysis anyway.

> >However, the head of the national center for disease monitoring in the
> >Health Ministry -- Professor Manfred Green -- reassured a cautious public
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Bob Officer
> Posting the truthhttp://www.skeptics.com.au
Bob Officer - 24 Jun 2009 01:18 GMT
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:55:53 -0400, in misc.health.alternative, "Jan
>>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
>But, you did a great analysis anyway.

It is just plain old everyday reading. This article would never even
be offered in a high school level debate when I was going to school,
40+ years ago. News and reporting has gone downhill in the last 30
years.

>> >However, the head of the national center for disease monitoring in the
>> >Health Ministry -- Professor Manfred Green -- reassured a cautious public
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>> Bob Officer
>> Posting the truthhttp://www.skeptics.com.au

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 22:46 GMT
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090621/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_bloggers_freebie_discl
osures


<quote>
FTC plans to monitor blogs for claims, payments
By DEBORAH YAO, AP Business Writer - Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:02PM EDT

Savvy consumers often go online for independent consumer reviews of
products and services, scouring through comments from everyday Joes and
Janes to help them find a gem or shun a lemon.

What some fail to realize, though, is that such reviews can be tainted:
Many bloggers have accepted perks such as free laptops, trips to Europe,
$500 gift cards or even thousands of dollars for a 200-word post.

___

On the Net:

Proposed guidelines:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/2008/11/P034520endorsementguides.pdf
</quote>

Signature

"Die Frau ist ein Mißgriff der Natur... mit ihrem Feuchtigkeits-Überschuß
und ihrer Untertemperatur körperlich und geistig minderwertiger... eine
Art verstümmelter, verfehlter, mißlungener Mann...die volle Verwirklichung
der menschlichen Art ist nur der Mann."
Thomas von Aquin, hl., Kirchenlehrer, 1225-1274
Heilsames über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Officer - 24 Jun 2009 01:29 GMT
>http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090621/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_bloggers_freebie_discl
osures

>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>http://www.ftc.gov/os/2008/11/P034520endorsementguides.pdf
></quote>

Many of today's Shills get payments in kind for touting everything
from medicinal herbs to gas additives.

Not so long ago I caught one woo-woo touting Mangosteen, as a
curative. Over a dozen years ago, there was an kook that was not only
selling something which had a FDA Cease and Desist Order, but was
issuing personal claims it cured a host of diseases. He was very
unhappy when he was busted by the authorities and nearly 20,000 units
of product was confiscated with valued estimated at nearly 250 US
dollars a unit. He also lost his savings account and Home over the
health scam.

Remember two things:
Life is terminal, everyone dies.

If something sounds too good or easy, it is usually fake or unlawful.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Terry Jones - 24 Jun 2009 06:59 GMT
>If something sounds too good or easy, it is usually fake or unlawful.

Or a politician speaking (or a banker, CEO, etc. ).
Phil W Lee - 24 Jun 2009 10:25 GMT
Terry Jones <terryjones@beeb.net> considered Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:59:50
+0100 the perfect time to write:

>>If something sounds too good or easy, it is usually fake or unlawful.
>
>Or a politician speaking (or a banker, CEO, etc. ).

It was fake, and a politician, but I repeat myself.

With apologies to Mark Twain.
Signature

Autistic Spectrum Code v.1.0
AP! AS! d-(pu)@ s-: a1962 c+++(++) p+ t-(++)@ f-(---) S++(+) p@ e++ h++ r++ n(--) i++(+) P m+() M+(++)

ASC Decoder at <http://www32.brinkster.com/ascdecode/>

Bob Badour - 24 Jun 2009 14:12 GMT
>>If something sounds too good or easy, it is usually fake or unlawful.
>
> Or a politician speaking (or a banker, CEO, etc. ).

I think those are all covered under "fake or unlawful".
Jan Drew - 24 Jun 2009 04:46 GMT
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information
contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten
or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated
Press.

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. | Copyright/IP Policy |
Terms of Service | Help

Notice: We collect personal information on this site. To learn more about
how we use this information, see our Privacy Policy

Question and Answer content at Yahoo! Tech is written by Yahoo! users at
Yahoo! Answers. Yahoo! does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any
Yahoo! Answers content. For more information, read the Full Disclaimer.

Opinions expressed by the Advisors are their own and do not necessarily
reflect the views of Yahoo! Inc. Yahoo! receives no compensation from any
manufacturer or distributor nor does it compensate any Advisor for the
coverage of any product or service in any Advisor's content.
Happy Oyster - 24 Jun 2009 09:23 GMT
>Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information
>contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>manufacturer or distributor nor does it compensate any Advisor for the
>coverage of any product or service in any Advisor's content.

Interesting, isn't it? But I quoted A PART of that, and quoting is allowed by
copyright law.

Too bad...

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob Badour - 24 Jun 2009 14:15 GMT
>>Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information
>>contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Too bad...

I think the more important observation is the non sequitur: A
manufacturer or distributor can pay Advisors directly for testimonials
on this service and this disclaimer does nothing to address the possibility.
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:45 GMT
> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090621/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_bloggers_freebie_discl
osures

>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Many bloggers have accepted perks such as free laptops, trips to Europe,
> $500 gift cards or even thousands of dollars for a 200-word post.

   The oldest joke on the net is this:
   "It must be true, I read it on the internet."
   When did people start think reading something on the internet was a
reliable source of information? What is everybody, five? Has the world gone
mad?
   And why are your sigs auf Deutsch?
   Afraid to state in plain English that Aquinas called Women a MISTAKE OF
NATURE??? Both of you are f.cking idiots!
   Er ist nicht eine Kirchenlehrer, er ist eine scheiBekopf im Holle...

> ___
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.ftc.gov/os/2008/11/P034520endorsementguides.pdf
> </quote>
Happy Oyster - 25 Jun 2009 11:36 GMT
>    And why are your sigs auf Deutsch?

Because they re quotes.

>    Afraid to state in plain English that Aquinas called Women a MISTAKE OF
>NATURE???

No. Why should I be?

>Both of you are f.cking idiots!

No objections.

>    Er ist nicht eine Kirchenlehrer, er ist eine scheiBekopf im Holle...

One of many...

>> Heilsames über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

There ya go..

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob Officer - 25 Jun 2009 14:37 GMT
>>    And why are your sigs auf Deutsch?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>No. Why should I be?

A signature like that isn't always an endorsement. Catholics and
people need to know the so-caled St Thomas Aquinas was not good
person. he hated women. I do thing he might have been the start of
the man-child molestations priesthood, because if a person Doesn't
like women, and prefers the company of men, and wants a society that
excludes women, He definitely hated women.

Just like people  (american shrinks and some parts of academia) Think
that Jung was such a great guy and advanced modern thinking. Well
those people need to be watched. Especially those that see children
and clients on a professional basis. Jung was in a habit of sleeping
with his patients. Pretty **sick minded** if you ask me.

>>Both of you are f.cking idiots!
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>There ya go..

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Happy Oyster - 26 Jun 2009 20:34 GMT
>>>    And why are your sigs auf Deutsch?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>and clients on a professional basis. Jung was in a habit of sleeping
>with his patients. Pretty **sick minded** if you ask me.

Thanks for describing the background.

Psychologists in most cases are a pest and their own best patients...

In German is a word "Eigenbedarf" with the meaning (coming from the practise of
letting rooms for rent) that the landlord himself needs the room (he himself is
in need of it ["hat Bedarf"]). This I applied on psychologists:

Psychologen haben Eigenbedarf.
******************************

Signature

"Ein männlicher Fötus wird nach 40 Tagen, ein weiblicher nach 80 Tagen
ein Mensch. Mädchen entstehen durch schadhaften Samen oder feuchte Winde."
Thomas von Aquin, Kirchenlehrer und Patron der katholischen Hochschulen
** ** Religion ist Teufelszeug: http://www.reimbibel.de ** **

Bob Badour - 26 Jun 2009 21:29 GMT
>>>>   And why are your sigs auf Deutsch?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Psychologen haben Eigenbedarf.
> ******************************

In english, we have the expression: "Physician, heal thyself!"
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 02:05 GMT
> On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Quite true. More and more these days, one method is staying away from
> the anti-vaccination parasites.

If you are vaccinated, then why would you need to stay away from those
who aren't?  Unvaccinated children do not carry the diseases and give
them to vaccinated children.  But, vaccinated children in the weeks
that follow a vaccination can pass the diseases to unvaccinated
children.  Thus the term 'herd immunity'.

> > Maybe, in a few years, someone will work out that there are a particular set
> > of genes that are responsible. If that is the case (and it doesn't seem
> > unlikely to me), I wonder how many of the people who today blame
> > vaccinations would have chosen to have their babies aborted if the faulty
> > gene(s) had been detected in them prior to birth?

Unfortunately, probably quite a few.  Just like with Down's Syndrome.

> That is a scary thought. The way the anti-vaccinationist speak of
> their autistic children, I am surprised that more of them do not do
> post-birth abortion.- Hide quoted text -

My 10yr old is the only one out of my 4 to have ASD.  He is the
sweetest, most caring, intelligent and creative one out of the 4.  We
as a family have adapted to him and his behaviors not forcing him into
ABA or any other type of therapy.  He is slower than the rest of his
class but this year in school, he made the most improvement of all his
class.  I couldn't be more proud.

> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 02:26 GMT
> > On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> If you are vaccinated, then why would you need to stay away from those
> who aren't?  

Because nothing, including vaccines, are 100% effective. A person may
not have had a good immune response, and they would catch the wild
virus.

Unvaccinated children do not carry the diseases and give
> them to vaccinated children.  

Horseshit. It has happened, especially in cases where full immunity
requires a course of a particular vaccine.

But, vaccinated children in the weeks
> that follow a vaccination can pass the diseases to unvaccinated
> children.  

No, it does not happen. I have search high and low for a well
documented case of that happening, and could not find one.

> Thus the term 'herd immunity'.

Wrong. Herd immunity is when a sufficient number of people in a
population are vaccinated and the disease has great difficulty being
passed from person to person. It is what parasites, freeloaders, and
negligent parents rely on to sooth their guilt when their kid gets a
disease and is damaged by it. They then claim that herd immunity was
not perfect.

> > > Maybe, in a few years, someone will work out that there are a particular set
> > > of genes that are responsible. If that is the case (and it doesn't seem
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Unfortunately, probably quite a few.  Just like with Down's Syndrome.

And those people justify their actions because of the rhetoric of the
anti-vaccination liars.

> > That is a scary thought. The way the anti-vaccinationist speak of
> > their autistic children, I am surprised that more of them do not do
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> as a family have adapted to him and his behaviors not forcing him into
> ABA or any other type of therapy.  

So, you deny vaccination safety and treatment to your children. No
wonder I think you are negligent. ABA is a proven treatment.

He is slower than the rest of his
> class but this year in school, he made the most improvement of all his
> class.  I couldn't be more proud.

Yeah.
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 04:51 GMT
> > > On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hey Mark...  I came across this... and I do believe they are talking
about YOU!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e

I should have figured you for a troll.
Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 17:31 GMT
> > > > On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> I should have figured you for a troll.-

You demonstrate another educational deficiency. Do look up the
definition of troll, and the logical fallacy of poisoning the well.

I never thought you were very bright, now you have proved it.
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:17 GMT
"mindy" <UsRcute@gmail.com> wrote
Hey Mark...  I came across this... and I do believe they are talking
about YOU!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e

I should have figured you for a troll.

   I can't say I'm surprised to see Mark here; I've seen him being a
one-size-fits-all know-it-all in a bazillion groups over the last ten years
or so. He is a freaking jackass.
Muddle - 25 Jun 2009 02:39 GMT
> "mindy" <UsRcute@gmail.com> wrote
> Hey Mark...  I came across this... and I do believe they are talking
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> one-size-fits-all know-it-all in a bazillion groups over the last ten
> years or so. He is a freaking jackass.

For the record I personally think that health care in it's current form
needs to be dismantled completely.  Making exorbitant profits from the
pain and suffering of others should be against the law. The disparity in
the industry is appalling, people like Steve Jobs shouldn't be able to
butt in line to get transplants.  Canadians and Mexicans shouldn't be
able to purchase medication at a third the price those in the U.S. do.
Health industry shills and lobyists ought to be shot.  etc. ad infinitum
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 03:09 GMT
>> "mindy" <UsRcute@gmail.com> wrote
>> Hey Mark...  I came across this... and I do believe they are talking
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> to purchase medication at a third the price those in the U.S. do. Health
> industry shills and lobyists ought to be shot.  etc. ad infinitum

   I'm pretty happy with it, myself. Saved my life. That's worth =all= my
money. I got off cheap!
   Seriously, two things would make a =huge= difference:
   1. Get rid of the bazillion idiotic supplements people waste money on.
That will save billions.
   2. Tort Reform must be passed now. If physicians cannot function without
fear of draconian penalties being imposed for every instance of an outcome
the patient doesn't like then we are going to see expensive doctors. Period.
My surgeries left me with a condition I'm not fond of, but it beats being
dead!!! It was worth $52,000.
Terry Jones - 25 Jun 2009 06:58 GMT
>If physicians cannot function without
>fear of draconian penalties being imposed for every instance of an outcome
>the patient doesn't like then we are going to see expensive doctors.

OTOH we do need *some* effective mechanism to address paternalistic
complacency, defensive "circling the wagons", etc.. The health
industry is like many other institutions in that respect.
Signature


Terry

Stephen Wilson - 25 Jun 2009 19:35 GMT
>>If physicians cannot function without
>>fear of draconian penalties being imposed for every instance of an outcome
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> complacency, defensive "circling the wagons", etc.. The health
> industry is like many other institutions in that respect.

There are plenty of things wrong with the health industry. But most of the
things that are wrong with it are caused by the general public.

We all want the latest drugs. We all want them for free (or as cheaply as
possible). The drugs industry would love to be able to produce lots of new
drugs. But all that takes research and development. And that takes time and
money.

Every time we're ill, we expect a magical pill to cure us. We all expect a
doctor to take responsibility for us, but rarely take any responsibility for
ourselves.

Medicine is also a victim of its own success. We have the ability to keep
seriously ill people alive. This causes 2 new problems. Most of those
seriously ill people need drugs and care for the rest of their lives. And
many will have children and so pass on any faulty genes that may have been
eradicated in a "survival of the fittest" environment.

And the strange thing is that for a society that has made so many advances,
we're all so incredibly superstitious! "Natural" = good, synthetic = bad,
the number 13 = bad, go and bathe at Lourdes and maybe you'll get better,
pray to a man who died 2000 years and maybe he'll cure you, etc...
PeterB - 26 Jun 2009 01:29 GMT
On Jun 25, 2:35 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> >>If physicians cannot function without
> >>fear of draconian penalties being imposed for every instance of an outcome
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> There are plenty of things wrong with the health industry. But most of the
> things that are wrong with it are caused by the general public.

Right.  All those people dying from properly prescribed meds,
nosocomial infections, useless surgery, chemo, etc.  It's all their
fault.

> We all want the latest drugs.

No, we don't.  Drugs are not beneficially metabolized in human biology
because Man has no genetic exposure to them, which is why they kill so
many people.

> We all want them for free (or as cheaply as
> possible).

You have a point.  Junk should be cheap.

> The drugs industry would love to be able to produce lots of new
> drugs. But all that takes research and development. And that takes time and
> money.

It also takes people surviving 3 short months of toxicology
assessment.  Which they usually do, as even poisons takes time to
work.

> Every time we're ill, we expect a magical pill to cure us.

I don't, but natural options do work remarkably well.

> We all expect a
> doctor to take responsibility for us, but rarely take any responsibility for
> ourselves.

That's what you would like to have readers believe, but it isn't
true.

> Medicine is also a victim of its own success.

Now that's quite true.  Almost half a million documented vaccine-
caused deaths, a ridiculously conservative 100,000 mortal reactions to
properly prescribed meds in the USA per annum, virtually no increase
in survival times resulting from billions spent on chemotherapy,
unncessary surgeries, etc., all "successes" that have victimized
medicine and made it the darling of drug makers.  Who said failure
wasn't profitable?

> We have the ability to keep
> seriously ill people alive.

You may not have noticed, but that's proven to be a very short list.

> This causes 2 new problems. Most of those
> seriously ill people need drugs and care for the rest of their lives.

They need care, but not drugs.  Drugs are associated with a higher
mortality rate, not a lower one.

> And
> many will have children and so pass on any faulty genes that may have been
> eradicated in a "survival of the fittest" environment.

Survival of the fittest requires competitive pressures, so don't
worry, your genes won't be lost.

> And the strange thing is that for a society that has made so many advances,
> we're all so incredibly superstitious! "Natural" = good, synthetic = bad,
> the number 13 = bad, go and bathe at Lourdes and maybe you'll get better,
> pray to a man who died 2000 years and maybe he'll cure you, etc...

Superstition is believing that a drug can cure or prevent diseases.
Believing that health can be acquired by injection is superstition.
Asserting that all things naturally occuring are good would be a
superstition, but I've never met anyone stupid enough to make that
argument.  Aluminum, mercury, and viruses are all naturally occuring,
but you wouldn't choose to inject these into yourself and expect
better health in the process.  Oops.  Then again, some things that are
naturally poisonous, like foxglove, and the drug based on it,
digitalis, do engender improved cardiac function in those with
congestive heart failure, though at a cost.  The fact that naturally
occuring substances can be beneficial or harmful, like garlic and
hemlock, respectively, does not make the case that drugs are either
beneficial or effective.  As for "synthetic = bad," it all depends.
Many naturally-occuring chemicals are synthesized inside human and
animal livers, and these are necessary for normal cellular function
and homeostasis.  There is no fallacy in recognizing the fact that a
drug manufactured to satisfy the patent model of medicine will be
unfamiliar to human biology and thus present a hazard to human health,
in contrast to substances naturally synthesized as part of our normal
cellular processes.
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 23:34 GMT
>>If physicians cannot function without
>>fear of draconian penalties being imposed for every instance of an outcome
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> complacency, defensive "circling the wagons", etc.. The health
> industry is like many other institutions in that respect.

   Other institutions that are unjustly attacked and vilified like the
doctors are?
Mark Probert - 25 Jun 2009 03:05 GMT
> "mindy" <UsRc...@gmail.com> wrote
> Hey Mark...  I came across this... and I do believe they are talking
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> one-size-fits-all know-it-all in a bazillion groups over the last ten years
> or so. He is a freaking jackass.

You should be surprised. You rposting history has nothing to do with
me.
Bob Officer - 23 Jun 2009 21:03 GMT
>> On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>that follow a vaccination can pass the diseases to unvaccinated
>children.  Thus the term 'herd immunity'.

Sorry you misusing the word. "Herd immunity" refers to the fact if a
large percentage of people in the world are vaccinated, there are
fewer vectors for that disease.

The problem is after being infected, The person does often travel and
infect dozens of more people which not showing any other symptom
other than a slight fever. The later part of the incubation period
the person is already infectious.

Unvaccinated children are vector just waiting to happen. If you have
a large enough mass of unvaccinated people together, odds are one of
them will have brought something unwanted to the gathering.

>> > Maybe, in a few years, someone will work out that there are a particular set
>> > of genes that are responsible. If that is the case (and it doesn't seem
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Unfortunately, probably quite a few.  Just like with Down's Syndrome.

>> That is a scary thought. The way the anti-vaccinationist speak of
>> their autistic children, I am surprised that more of them do not do
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>class but this year in school, he made the most improvement of all his
>class.  I couldn't be more proud.

I know the degree of functionality differs from child to child with
ASD. I spent a few of summers during the college years working summer
camps which specialized in working with youth with developmental
problems. Education of the parents to help them deal with the special
needs these children present is the key. I would have a cabin with
3-6 of children with special needs, often another "counselor" to help
me. It was hard but rewarding work.

Remember ASD is not actually a disease but a set of symptoms which
had been lumped together. If you look at the changing criteria for
ADS you'll see there is more and more symptoms lumped into it all the
time.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:11 GMT
My 10yr old is the only one out of my 4 to have ASD.  He is the
sweetest, most caring, intelligent and creative one out of the 4.  We
as a family have adapted to him and his behaviors not forcing him into
ABA or any other type of therapy.  He is slower than the rest of his
class but this year in school, he made the most improvement of all his
class.  I couldn't be more proud.

   I presume he is a wee aspie. Why do you then, with all this pride, still
act like there is something wrong with him?
mindy - 25 Jun 2009 03:23 GMT
> My 10yr old is the only one out of my 4 to have ASD.  He is the
> sweetest, most caring, intelligent and creative one out of the 4.  We
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>     I presume he is a wee aspie. Why do you then, with all this pride, still
> act like there is something wrong with him?

I'm not sure what you mean.  Seriously.  I see the looks he gets from
strangers when we go to the city to do grocery shopping and I want
just slap them.  They have no idea what gains he has made.  Because of
ASD, I cannot put the same rules and disciplines upon him as I do his
brother.  Concessions have to me made and instruction comes in a
different format a lot of the time.  So do I act like there is
something 'wrong' with him?  I don't think so, I just realize that he
is not at this time able to interact, perform or behave the same as
his little brother.  I don't see this as wrong, I see it as different,
just like me and my sister are different, or you and your neighbor etc.
Jeff - 25 Jun 2009 04:00 GMT
>> My 10yr old is the only one out of my 4 to have ASD.  He is the
>> sweetest, most caring, intelligent and creative one out of the 4.  We
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> strangers when we go to the city to do grocery shopping and I want
> just slap them.  They have no idea what gains he has made.

I know what you mean. I have spent a lot of time with special ed
students, and I have seen a lot of progress. I have also known many
adults who have had various disabilities, including ASD, who are
contributing members of society.

> Because of
> ASD, I cannot put the same rules and disciplines upon him as I do his
> brother.

Every kid have specials needs, needs different rules and disciplines.
(Of course, some kids need more special rules than others.)

> Concessions have to me made and instruction comes in a
> different format a lot of the time.  So do I act like there is
> something 'wrong' with him?  I don't think so, I just realize that he
> is not at this time able to interact, perform or behave the same as
> his little brother.  I don't see this as wrong, I see it as different,
> just like me and my sister are different, or you and your neighbor etc.

Exactly.

A very interesting reading is a book written in the voice of a kid with
autism, The curious incident of the dog in the nightime, by MArk Haddon.
I would love to hear what parents of kids with ASD or people with ASD
thing of this book.

Jeff
Muddle - 25 Jun 2009 14:01 GMT
>>> My 10yr old is the only one out of my 4 to have ASD.  He is the
>>> sweetest, most caring, intelligent and creative one out of the 4.  We
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Jeff

I've got it around here somewhere.  As I recall the author had a sibling
that had autism.  An interesting perspective, however I thought the
writing seemed geared more towards children rather than adults. As in
the difference between R. L Stine vs Stephen King or the Hardy Boys vs
Sherlock Holmes so to speak.
I'm the custodial parent and father of a 17 year old boy, whom I had to
have a talk with last night about not grabbing his cute TSS/Wraparounds
a.s.  I gotta give him credit, he sure does have good taste when it
comes to the ladies.  He knows what he wants and isn't afraid to grab it
with both hands.  Seriously though we had a long talk about being a
gentleman.  The juries still out on how much good it did.
Speaking about juries, the X has dragged me back to court to lower the
child support and I think I'm going to go her one better.  I'm going to
request that her parental rights and obligations be terminated, then I
don't ever want to hear from her again.  I want her out of our life
completely, but the current custodial agreement gives her Carte Blanche
to mess with us forever, because it requires that she pay child support
for life.
Oh well, life truly is a bitch, then you die.
Jeff - 25 Jun 2009 17:37 GMT
>>>> My 10yr old is the only one out of my 4 to have ASD.  He is the
>>>> sweetest, most caring, intelligent and creative one out of the 4.  We
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> the difference between R. L Stine vs Stephen King or the Hardy Boys vs
> Sherlock Holmes so to speak.

That was the idea of the book. One of my favoriate book series is Harry
Potter, so I like both points of view.

> I'm the custodial parent and father of a 17 year old boy, whom I had to
> have a talk with last night about not grabbing his cute TSS/Wraparounds
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> for life.
> Oh well, life truly is a bitch, then you die.

Yet you have your son. It's not all bad.

Jeff
D. C. Sessions - 26 Jul 2009 04:39 GMT
> Unvaccinated children do not carry the diseases and give
> them to vaccinated children.

But they do.  For instance, the baby last year who was in
the paediatrician's office for a well-baby visit.  Unfortunately,
there was also an unvaccinated kid there who'd picked up measles
from Switzerland.  The baby was too young to be vaccinated.

The baby ended up hospitalized.  It's too soon to tell if s/he
will die of SSPE.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
Arak - 24 Jun 2009 16:58 GMT
> That is a scary thought. The way the anti-vaccinationist speak of
> their autistic children, I am surprised that more of them do not do
> post-birth abortion.

I know of one who did: Karen McCarron. (http://
djdialogue143.blogspot.com/2008/01/on-may-13-2006-light-was-
extinguished.html)  She was a doctor who believed vaccines were one of
the causes of her daughter's autism.  In the end Karen killed her
because she didn't "want autism in [her] life".

I know she's not the only parent who's either thought of it or done
it.

It still baffles me that autism seems to invoke this kind of ire in
parents that other disabilities don't seem to.

Arak /|\
Bob Badour - 24 Jun 2009 17:40 GMT
>>That is a scary thought. The way the anti-vaccinationist speak of
>>their autistic children, I am surprised that more of them do not do
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> It still baffles me that autism seems to invoke this kind of ire in
> parents that other disabilities don't seem to.

That thar McCarron thang ain't nuthin!

Danielle Blais... Her primary qualification for the job she got at the
Quebec Société de l'autisme is her murder of her autistic son. She
chased him down and drowned him in the bathtub a full 5 years before
Andrea Yates did the same to her children. Everyone has heard of Yates
and nobody would ever dream of giving her a job advising people on
parenting young children.

http://autismcrisis.blogspot.com/2006/11/murder-of-charles-antoine-blais.html
t - 23 Jun 2009 04:31 GMT
Sick minds need to justify vaccines.

>>>I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
>>>in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> vaccinations would have chosen to have their babies aborted if the faulty
> gene(s) had been detected in them prior to birth?
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 04:59 GMT
I agree... but you can't blame them... they are suffering from 'herd'
mentality as well as 'herd immunity'... ya, right.

oh, and your link did not work for me.

> >>>I think it would be wiser and safer if they were given later
> >>>in childhood and not so many viruses in each shot.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Terry Jones - 23 Jun 2009 08:50 GMT
>Sick minds need to justify vaccines.

Emotional "arguments" like that are used by people who's case doesn't
stand up to scrutiny - With all the money spent on lawyers and
lobbying, the anti-vaccine groups could have funded some good quality,
scientifically credible studies into their claims.
Signature


Terry

Jeff - 23 Jun 2009 11:57 GMT
> Sick minds need to justify vaccines.

Incorrect.

The data and lives saves justify vaccines.

Jeff
t - 23 Jun 2009 19:49 GMT
Why do you call yourself "kidsdoc"???
>> Sick minds need to justify vaccines.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jeff
Jan Drew - 24 Jun 2009 04:48 GMT
>> Sick minds need to justify vaccines.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jeff

http://www.newstarget.com/z020866.html

NewsTarget.com printable article
Originally published October 24 2006
Four people die after flu vaccination shots
(NewsTarget) Four people died after being injected with the flu vaccine, the
Health Ministry of Israel reported yesterday. Before receiving the flu
inoculations, three of the four individuals were suffering from several
chronic ailments, including heart disease and diabetes. A fourth
recipient -- a 67-year-old man -- suffered from serious heart disease. He
was found dead on a city street a few hours after receiving the flu vaccine
shot from his wife, a dentist.
The flu vaccine in question was made and distributed by the French
pharmaceutical firm Sanofi-Aventis. Sanofi-Aventis markets the vaccine all
over the world, and it was determined that all four deaths occurred in
people who had been inoculated with vaccine from the same series made by the
company.

The Health Ministry of Israel said Sunday that Sanofi-Aventis had been asked
whether unexplained fatalities had been reported in any other country. An
answer to this question was expected Monday, but if no other reports are
uncovered, inoculations will be allowed to continue, according to Israeli
Health Minister Ben-Yizri.

The Israeli Health Ministry has begun looking into possible sources of
contamination -- but so far none have been found in the actual vaccine. At
this time, 140,000 people have been inoculated. The Health Ministry has
started an investigation into the medical team at the Kiryat Gat clinic
where three of the four victims received their flu shots from the same
nurse.

However, the head of the national center for disease monitoring in the
Health Ministry -- Professor Manfred Green -- reassured a cautious public
this past Sunday by stating that there may be a simple statistical
explanation for the four deaths, by saying "About 100 people die every day
in Israel from chronic diseases. These four individuals could be part of
that group."

Yitzhak Berlovitch, deputy director of the Health Ministry, stated that no
cases have ever been documented in Israel of deaths after flu inoculations.
There had not yet been any autopsies performed on the four victims because
"the Health Ministry has no justification for doing so," according to
Berlovitch.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=9017255&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=2198876&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=1677837&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.

Joshi JG.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Tennessee, Knoxville 37996-0840.

1. Aluminum is an established neurotoxin. Prolonged exposure to even low
levels of aluminum permit its chelation and subsequent transport to brain
where it is non-uniformly distributed. 2. Available evidence suggests that
(i) aluminum interferes with glucose metabolism by inhibiting hexokinase and
glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; (ii) it binds to calmodulin and affects
numerous phosphorylation-dephosphorylation reactions; (iii) it binds to
transferrin and ferritin, affects the function of these proteins which in
turn affect iron metabolism. 3. Thus accumulation of aluminum-induced
metabolic errors colocalized in specific areas of the brain may lead to
neurological disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15202764&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11746431&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11470325&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Happy Oyster - 24 Jun 2009 09:23 GMT
>>> Sick minds need to justify vaccines.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11470325&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Is this the same Jan Drew which is so interested in copyright law?

Too bad...
Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob Badour - 24 Jun 2009 14:18 GMT
<snip>

>>Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
>>mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Too bad...

You seem to miss the most important bits. Who posted is far less
relevant than the simple observation that publishing an hypothesis does
not prove the hypothesis. It just puts it out there for comment.
Mark Probert - 22 Jun 2009 22:41 GMT
> >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> [And for those who espouse an inflammatory model of autism, I wonder
> about the inflammatory effects of chronic infections and parasites?]

One of the logical inconsistencies of those who promote the failed
"vaccines cause Autism" myth is that they cannot explain why a vaccine
would cause something that getting the disease does not. I know that
they whine about the "toxins", etc. but all of those chemicals are
natural to the human body to one degree or another.

And, of course, in classic goal post shifting, they now claim "too
many, too soon" not realizing that there are now fewer antigens in the
vaccine schedule than  before.
drcee - 23 Jun 2009 00:45 GMT
> One of the logical inconsistencies of those who promote the failed
> "vaccines cause Autism" myth is that they cannot explain why a vaccine
> would cause something that getting the disease does not.

Uhmm, Pervert, the disease does not contain mercury, aluminum,
squalene, other aduvants, vicarious genetic material, all injected
into the living organism and bypassing the normal protective
mechanisms.

I know that
> they whine about the "toxins", etc. but all of those chemicals are
> natural to the human body to one degree or another.

Mercury is not natural to the body.  Aluminum is not natural to the
body.  Injected squalene is treated as a foriegn chemical as is all
the other ingredients.

Your perverted comments are as perverted as you are.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.  You can
make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.
Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 01:41 GMT
> > One of the logical inconsistencies of those who promote the failed
> > "vaccines cause Autism" myth is that they cannot explain why a vaccine
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.  You can
> make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.

Hi Pus-4-Brains.

I should point out that you have claimed to have received your
education on Mars.

You have never demonstrated the slightest understanding of human
physiology, or any other scientific field of study. If you were an
astronomer, you would deny gravity.
Jan Drew - 23 Jun 2009 06:10 GMT
On Jun 22, 7:45 pm, drcee <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 5:41 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. You can
> make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.

Hi Pus-4-Brains.

Coming from a disbarred attorney, proven liar, harasser who shows the
evidence that he does no read Torah everday.

I should point out that you have claimed to have received your
education on Mars.

You have never demonstrated the slightest understanding of human
physiology, or any other scientific field of study. If you were an
astronomer, you would deny gravity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=9017255&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=2198876&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=1677837&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


Neurochemical hypothesis: participation by aluminum in producing critical
mass of colocalized errors in brain leads to neurological disease.

Joshi JG.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Tennessee, Knoxville 37996-0840.

1. Aluminum is an established neurotoxin. Prolonged exposure to even low
levels of aluminum permit its chelation and subsequent transport to brain
where it is non-uniformly distributed. 2. Available evidence suggests that
(i) aluminum interferes with glucose metabolism by inhibiting hexokinase and
glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; (ii) it binds to calmodulin and affects
numerous phosphorylation-dephosphorylation reactions; (iii) it binds to
transferrin and ferritin, affects the function of these proteins which in
turn affect iron metabolism. 3. Thus accumulation of aluminum-induced
metabolic errors colocalized in specific areas of the brain may lead to
neurological disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15202764&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11746431&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11470325&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 03:56 GMT
>Mercury is not natural to the body.  

And measles are not natural to the body.

Signature

"Wenn du eine Frau siehst, denke, es sei der Teufel!
Sie ist eine Art Hölle!"   (Papst Pius II., 1405-1464)

Mehr über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Badour - 23 Jun 2009 05:27 GMT
>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>
> And measles are not natural to the body.

Actually, both are or can be quite natural to the body just as snake
venom is natural, smallpox is natural, bubonic plague is natural,
getting eaten by bears is natural. The idea that natural is good is just
as nuts as the cranks who cross-post this crap.
PeterB - 23 Jun 2009 15:57 GMT
> >>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> getting eaten by bears is natural. The idea that natural is good is just
> as nuts as the cranks who cross-post this crap.

Your "logic" suggests that those who use the word "natural" are
equating it with something "good" regardless of context, which is not
the case.  No one would argue that dying young is good just because
death is natural.  Natural is good when it describes avoidance of
personal injury by avoiding an adverse condition.  I avoid fast food
and decline questionable medical interventions not because death isn't
natural, but because I prefer not to die. I'll do both regardless what
you want to call it.  BTW, mercury was once used to treat disease
based on the belief that doing so would be "good" for patients.  What
changed is information.  Based on my reading of medical history, more
human beings have perished from the adverse side effects of vaccine
than from use of mercury in the earlier period.  Read "Public Health
at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43.  Vaccines were
responsible for, *at most*, 3.5% of the decline in severe illness
leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to
1975.
Bob Badour - 23 Jun 2009 16:00 GMT
>>>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> death is natural.  Natural is good when it describes avoidance of
> personal injury by avoiding an adverse condition.

The word simply never means that. Open a dictionary sometime.

<snip>
PeterB - 23 Jun 2009 16:48 GMT
> >>>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> <snip>

The word "simply" doesn't appear in your comment, but if it had, it
would not change the fallacy of your argument.  By the way, I avoid
fast food and decline questionable medical interventions not because
death isn't natural, but because I prefer not to die. I'll do both
regardless what you want to call it.  You may not know that mercury
was once used to treat disease based on the belief that doing so would
be "good" for patients.  What changed is information.  Based on my
reading of medical history, more human beings have perished from the
adverse side effects of vaccine
than from use of mercury in the earlier period.  How ironic that both
of these should have come together.  I choose to avoid them.  Read
"Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43.  Vaccines
were responsible for, *at most*, 3.5% of the decline in severe illness
leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to 1975
(and that doesn't even adust for nearly a million deaths caused by
vaccines.)
Peter Bowditch - 23 Jun 2009 23:18 GMT
>> > Your "logic" suggests that those who use the word "natural" are
>> > equating it with something "good" regardless of context, which is not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>The word "simply" doesn't appear in your comment, but if it had, it
>would not change the fallacy of your argument.

There you go again with your idiosyncratic use of English. Bob was not
referring to the word "simply", but you knew that.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 24 Jun 2009 04:53 GMT
On Jun 23, 11:00 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> >>Happy Oyster wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> <snip>

The word "simply" doesn't appear in your comment, but if it had, it
would not change the fallacy of your argument.  By the way, I avoid
fast food and decline questionable medical interventions not because
death isn't natural, but because I prefer not to die. I'll do both
regardless what you want to call it.  You may not know that mercury
was once used to treat disease based on the belief that doing so would
be "good" for patients.  What changed is information.  Based on my
reading of medical history, more human beings have perished from the
adverse side effects of vaccine
than from use of mercury in the earlier period.  How ironic that both
of these should have come together.  I choose to avoid them.  Read
"Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43.  Vaccines
were responsible for, *at most*, 3.5% of the decline in severe illness
leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to 1975
(and that doesn't even adust for nearly a million deaths caused by
vaccines.)
Happy Oyster - 24 Jun 2009 09:34 GMT
>On Jun 23, 11:00 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>(and that doesn't even adust for nearly a million deaths caused by
>vaccines.)

Aha, another forgery by Jan Drew.

The original is this:

<quote>
From: PeterB <pkm@mytrashmail.com>
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,misc.kids.health,alt.support.autism
Subject: Re: Vaccines and Neurological Damage
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
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    <n4k0451f8ipvt34fbkelmp4qop5ithqiho@4ax.com>
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alt.support.autism:403128

On Jun 23, 12:27 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Happy Oyster wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> getting eaten by bears is natural. The idea that natural is good is just
> as nuts as the cranks who cross-post this crap.

Your "logic" suggests that those who use the word "natural" are
equating it with something "good" regardless of context, which is not
the case.  No one would argue that dying young is good just because
death is natural.  Natural is good when it describes avoidance of
personal injury by avoiding an adverse condition.  I avoid fast food
and decline questionable medical interventions not because death isn't
natural, but because I prefer not to die. I'll do both regardless what
you want to call it.  BTW, mercury was once used to treat disease
based on the belief that doing so would be "good" for patients.  What
changed is information.  Based on my reading of medical history, more
human beings have perished from the adverse side effects of vaccine
than from use of mercury in the earlier period.  Read "Public Health
at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43.  Vaccines were
responsible for, *at most*, 3.5% of the decline in severe illness
leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to
1975.
</quote>

How many thousand times did Jan Drew do that already?

Jan Drew is a habitual liar. As is proven day for day.

But, so we know now, the FTC is targetting in on Jan Drew...

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Peter Bowditch - 23 Jun 2009 23:15 GMT
>>>>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>The word simply never means that. Open a dictionary sometime.

Bob, meet PeterB, a person (who could be a man, but who knows about
anonymous posters) who is a follower of the philosopher Humpty Dumpty.
He has even been known to quote definitions from dictionaries which
show that his use of a word is completely wrong and then go on to
argue that the dictionary supports his subjective use. When called on
this, he often then misuses the word "semantic" or one of its
derivatives.

><snip>

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

PeterB - 24 Jun 2009 01:11 GMT
> >>>>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> this, he often then misuses the word "semantic" or one of its
> derivatives.

Now, Fluffy, let's be truthful.  You objected to the term "severe
morbidity" despite the fact it is found in thousands of study
discussions and abstracts, as I proved with a Google query.  When you
were unable to respond intelligently to this fact, you insisted that
morbidity means *only* case rate, or incidence.  When I proved that
was also false by quoting the two entries from Merriam Webster, you
insisted it simply wasn't so, even though it was there staring you in
the face.  You babbled circuitously and I generously referred to your
"argument" as semantic.  But for once you are probably right -- your
"argument" wasn't semantic, it was merely stupid.
Jan Drew - 24 Jun 2009 04:55 GMT
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com>

Once again wrote nothing but a diversion, and personal insults.
Happy Oyster - 24 Jun 2009 09:34 GMT
>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com>
>
>Once again wrote nothing but a diversion, and personal insults.

Says Jan Drew, the liar and forger...

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 19:35 GMT
>BTW, mercury was once used to treat disease
>based on the belief that doing so would be "good" for patients.  

Mercury is used intensively by homeopaths, even in dangerously high dosages.

>What changed is information.  

Yes, the homeopaths lie about it.

>Based on my reading of medical history, more
>human beings have perished from the adverse side effects of vaccine
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to
>1975.

Obviously either that R. Beaglehole wrote a mess or you can't read.

Signature

"Die Frau ist ein Mißgriff der Natur... mit ihrem Feuchtigkeits-Überschuß
und ihrer Untertemperatur körperlich und geistig minderwertiger... eine
Art verstümmelter, verfehlter, mißlungener Mann...die volle Verwirklichung
der menschlichen Art ist nur der Mann."
Thomas von Aquin, hl., Kirchenlehrer, 1225-1274
Heilsames über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

Jan Drew - 24 Jun 2009 05:10 GMT
From: PeterB <p...@mytrashmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, Jun 23 2009 10:57 am

On Jun 23, 12:27 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Happy Oyster wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:45:38 -0700 (PDT), drcee <drcee...@insightbb.com>
> > wrote:

> >>Mercury is not natural to the body.

> > And measles are not natural to the body.

> Actually, both are or can be quite natural to the body just as snake
> venom is natural, smallpox is natural, bubonic plague is natural,
> getting eaten by bears is natural. The idea that natural is good is just
> as nuts as the cranks who cross-post this crap.

Your "logic" suggests that those who use the word "natural" are
equating it with something "good" regardless of context, which is not
the case.  No one would argue that dying young is good just because
death is natural.  Natural is good when it describes avoidance of
personal injury by avoiding an adverse condition.  I avoid fast food
and decline questionable medical interventions not because death isn't
natural, but because I prefer not to die. I'll do both regardless what
you want to call it.  BTW, mercury was once used to treat disease
based on the belief that doing so would be "good" for patients.  What
changed is information.  Based on my reading of medical history, more
human beings have perished from the adverse side effects of vaccine
than from use of mercury in the earlier period.  Read "Public Health
at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43.  Vaccines were
responsible for, *at most*, 3.5% of the decline in severe illness
leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to
1975.
Happy Oyster - 24 Jun 2009 09:34 GMT
>From: PeterB <p...@mytrashmail.com>
>Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to
>1975.

1. Who wrote what?

2. Why does Jan Drew pump more nonsense into the net day for day?

The FTC will find out...

Signature

"Wo sich ein Priester aufhält, darf kein Weib eintreten."
Synode von Paris, 846
"In keiner Religion oder Weltanschauung ist die Frau so geachtet und geehrt
wie im Christentum!" Der katholische Theologe Bernhard Häring im 20. Jahrhundert

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   http://www.reimbibel.de  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Stephen Wilson - 23 Jun 2009 23:14 GMT
On Jun 23, 12:27 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>> >>Mercury is not natural to the body.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>leading to mortality caused by infectious diseases from 1900 to
>1975.

Perhaps you're right. However, are you aware that since vaccines were
developed, mumps, measles and rubella have become virtually unknown in
Britain? Or at least, virtually unknown until recently.

Since 1 January 2009, 316 cases of measles have been reported in Wales. 100
new cases were reported in less than 4 weeks. Mumps is currently also on the
increase. Does this mean the vaccine doesn't work? No. It means that since
some idiot(s) sparked fears that vaccines were unsafe, some parents have
refused to let their children be vaccinated. An estimated 45,000
schoolchildren in Wales have not been fully vaccinated. As a result, 38
people have been hospitalised to date. It is currently believed that it is
only a matter of time before someone dies and/or is left permanently
affected.
PeterB - 24 Jun 2009 00:26 GMT
On Jun 23, 6:14 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 12:27 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> developed, mumps, measles and rubella have become virtually unknown in
> Britain? Or at least, virtually unknown until recently.

It would be nice if the validity of a medical intervention could be
proven soley by association, but that isn't how science works.  One
poster in favor of mass vaccine recently posted an article that he
thought made the case for it, however it actually raised the issue of
"vaccine bias" as a problem during earlier polio vaccine experiments,
a phenomenon just as likely to impact statistical reporting today.  It
isn't a question of whether children experience outbreaks of such
diseases, it is a question of whether vaccine bias plays a role in
incidence reporting and whether disease sequalae has been modified
sufficiently by vaccine to change how these diseases are observed or
classified.  The issue of vaccine safety is hardly resolved, in fact
it's hardly been addressed.  We are now the subjects of an
uncontrolled experiment at the population level, and have been for
decades.

> Since 1 January 2009, 316 cases of measles have been reported in Wales. 100
> new cases were reported in less than 4 weeks. Mumps is currently also on the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> only a matter of time before someone dies and/or is left permanently
> affected.
Terry Jones - 24 Jun 2009 06:59 GMT
>It would be nice if the validity of a medical intervention could be
>proven soley by association, but that isn't how science works.  One
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>sufficiently by vaccine to change how these diseases are observed or
>classified.

Unfortunately a quick Google for "vaccine bias" brings up reference to
biases *about* vaccines, and then your own post - But from what you've
written, you seem to be referring to an effect in which the vaccine
modifies the symptoms and hence the identification, but that the
disease in question remains just as damaging / fatal as before?

Since even including quotes for "vaccine bias" isn't taking me to this
sort of reference, would you please give some links to references
where this phenomenon has actually been observed?
Signature


Terry

Peter Bowditch - 24 Jun 2009 14:02 GMT
>>It would be nice if the validity of a medical intervention could be
>>proven soley by association, but that isn't how science works.  One
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>sort of reference, would you please give some links to references
>where this phenomenon has actually been observed?

The expression was invented by none other than PeterB, and apparently
means the way that doctors ignore the possibility that vaccines might
cause damage. I have never seen anybody else use the term.

If I remember correctly, he first used it in a discussion of
"subclinical measles" (another of his neologisms) as a way of
explaining why doctors don't see measles everywhere like they did in
the 1950s. It's their "vaccine bias" which makes them blind to both
measles and vaccine damage.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Phil W Lee - 24 Jun 2009 15:46 GMT
Peter Bowditch <myfirstname@ratbags.com> considered Wed, 24 Jun 2009
13:02:10 GMT the perfect time to write:

>>>It would be nice if the validity of a medical intervention could be
>>>proven soley by association, but that isn't how science works.  One
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>the 1950s. It's their "vaccine bias" which makes them blind to both
>measles and vaccine damage.

Out of fairness, I should maybe point out that I have heard the term
used by a doctor, to describe the situaltion where an illness is less
likely to be correctly diagnosed if the doctor is unfamiliar with it
due to it becoming rare after mass vaccination has been practiced over
many years.
In our case, it was when my wife had mumps, which took them ages to
diagnose because so few doctors are familiar with the symptoms these
days.
Bob Officer - 24 Jun 2009 22:05 GMT
>Peter Bowditch <myfirstname@ratbags.com> considered Wed, 24 Jun 2009
>13:02:10 GMT the perfect time to write:
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>diagnose because so few doctors are familiar with the symptoms these
>days.

I had a friend's father in his late 70s pass away a 20 years ago
because of TB. The young MD he was seeing had never seen the disease
and it was only after a culture came back they had a diagnosis. By
then he was in the last stages of the disease.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Bob Officer - 24 Jun 2009 22:02 GMT
>>>It would be nice if the validity of a medical intervention could be
>>>proven soley by association, but that isn't how science works.  One
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>the 1950s. It's their "vaccine bias" which makes them blind to both
>measles and vaccine damage.

If anything Measles was probably under reported in the 1950-1960s. It
was typical around here not to report them. The Schools might have
seen a drop in attendance because of the measles but other than being
an excuse absence due to illness and a parents note. I do know I
didn't see a doctor when I got the measles, or mumps in the mid
1950s. The same held true for most people, unless there were
complications from the disease.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

D. C. Sessions - 26 Jul 2009 04:53 GMT
> If I remember correctly, he first used it in a discussion of
> "subclinical measles" (another of his neologisms) as a way of
> explaining why doctors don't see measles everywhere like they did in
> the 1950s. It's their "vaccine bias" which makes them blind to both
> measles and vaccine damage.

Kind of like a Pooka -- in this case, PeterB can see the otherwise
invisible six-foot iron lungs and all of the paralyzed people in
them when nobody else can.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
Mark Probert - 24 Jun 2009 15:16 GMT
On Jun 23, 6:14 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 12:27 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> only a matter of time before someone dies and/or is left permanently
> affected.-

If you knew Petey like we know Petey...

Cherry picked quotes...
Logical fallacies...
Torturing stats to say the opposite...
Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 19:12 GMT
>>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>getting eaten by bears is natural. The idea that natural is good is just
>as nuts as the cranks who cross-post this crap.

No. Measles are NOT NATURAL TO THE HUMAN BODY.

Signature

"Die Frau ist ein Mißgriff der Natur... mit ihrem Feuchtigkeits-Überschuß
und ihrer Untertemperatur körperlich und geistig minderwertiger... eine
Art verstümmelter, verfehlter, mißlungener Mann...die volle Verwirklichung
der menschlichen Art ist nur der Mann."
Thomas von Aquin, hl., Kirchenlehrer, 1225-1274
Heilsames über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Badour - 23 Jun 2009 19:21 GMT
>>>>Mercury is not natural to the body.  
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> No. Measles are NOT NATURAL TO THE HUMAN BODY.

Bald assertion without evidence or fact does not persuade.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural

Measles are natural to the human body by every one of the following
definitions:

* existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial ): a natural
bridge.

* based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth
is a natural process.

* of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.

* of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science:
conducting natural experiments.

* in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land.

* growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand

* having undergone little or no processing and containing no chemical
additives

* having a real or physical existence, as opposed to one that is
spiritual, intellectual, fictitious, etc.

* arising easily or spontaneously

* in conformity with the ordinary course of nature; not unusual or
exceptional.

* happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without the
intervention of accident, violence, etc.

* based on what is learned from nature rather than on revelation.

* not treated, tanned, refined, etc.; in its original or raw state

* a natural substance or a product made with such a substance
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:05 GMT
You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
TV broken? Can't read?

On Jun 22, 5:41 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One of the logical inconsistencies of those who promote the failed
> "vaccines cause Autism" myth is that they cannot explain why a vaccine
> would cause something that getting the disease does not.

Uhmm, Pervert, the disease does not contain mercury, aluminum,
squalene, other aduvants, vicarious genetic material, all injected
into the living organism and bypassing the normal protective
mechanisms.

I know that
> they whine about the "toxins", etc. but all of those chemicals are
> natural to the human body to one degree or another.

Mercury is not natural to the body.  Aluminum is not natural to the
body.  Injected squalene is treated as a foriegn chemical as is all
the other ingredients.

Your perverted comments are as perverted as you are.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.  You can
make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.
Jeff - 25 Jun 2009 03:00 GMT
>    You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
> TV broken? Can't read?

I know what you mean. All those people dying in the US from polio,
measles and smallpox prove it everyday. ;-)

Seriously, there is no "vaccine theory." There is immunology. And our
understanding of immunology is supported every single day in experiments
that back it and extend it each and every day. We don't everything about
immunology, but we understand how all the licensed vaccines work, how
the immune system makes antibodies that neutralize vaccines and how
lives are saved every day because no one get small pox, polio or measles
in most developed countries, and the incidence and mortality of other
vaccine-preventable diseases is way down, to almost zero, for diseases
like mumps, rubella, Hib invasive disease and purtussis.

If I am incorrect, please provide good evidence of that.

Jeff

> On Jun 22, 5:41 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.  You can
> make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 03:14 GMT
>>    You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
>> TV broken? Can't read?
>
> I know what you mean. All those people dying in the US from polio, measles
> and smallpox prove it everyday. ;-)

   I'm reading this is ASA; what I mean is that vaccines do not cause
autism. I'm familiar with immunology. Too bad we don't have a vaccine for
stupidity....
   Cheers!

> Seriously, there is no "vaccine theory." There is immunology. And our
> understanding of immunology is supported every single day in experiments
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.  You can
>> make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.
Jeff - 25 Jun 2009 03:22 GMT
>>>    You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
>>> TV broken? Can't read?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> for stupidity....
>    Cheers!

Well there is help for stupidity. You can learn to not top-post and to
write clearly.

Jeff
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 23:31 GMT
>>>>    You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
>>>> TV broken? Can't read?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jeff

   No, actually, I can't.
Mark Probert - 25 Jun 2009 14:39 GMT
> >>    You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
> >> TV broken? Can't read?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> autism. I'm familiar with immunology. Too bad we don't have a vaccine for
> stupidity....

You would be a bazzillionaire if you could do that. You could hire
Bill Gates to turn on your computer, and then just sit there and
listen to you curse Microsoft.

>     Cheers!
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 25 Jun 2009 03:01 GMT
>     You fail to recognize that the vaccine theory has been disproven.
> TV broken? Can't read?

Cannot think. Chuckie has no mind.

> On Jun 22, 5:41 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.  You can
> make a heck of a lot of money trying as our monopoly docs (MDs) prove.
D. C. Sessions - 26 Jul 2009 04:56 GMT
> Aluminum is not natural to the
> body.

Show me one without it.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
No Body - 27 Jul 2009 00:06 GMT
>> Aluminum is not natural to the
>> body.
>
> Show me one without it.

   I did not write the above. You snapped when you should have
snipped.

> | The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
> | chance that someone will see the light. |
> +- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 01:36 GMT
> > >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Foreign DNA from monkey kidneys is not natural to the human body,
unless of course someone in your past family tree conceived from
practicing beastiality.  Which I doubt happened.

Then there is the mercury, the aluminum, and a long list of other
contaminates including unknown monkey viruses, like what happened with
polio and the SV40 virus, which by the way was named SV40 because it
was the 40th monkey virus found contaminating vaccinesl.

And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
inflamation, fever, localized swelling, just to name a few of the
minor reactions.

If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
vaccines?
Mark Probert - 23 Jun 2009 01:50 GMT
> > > >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Foreign DNA from monkey kidneys is not natural to the human body,

Who said that there is any of this in vaccines?

> unless of course someone in your past family tree conceived from
> practicing beastiality.  Which I doubt happened.

Well, considering your posts, I do not share your doubts.

> Then there is the mercury, the aluminum,

Both found in the environment, and in the human body without
considering any from vaccines. Anyway, there is no thimerosal in the
full range of childhood vaccines, so the point is moot.

and a long list of other
> contaminates including unknown monkey viruses,

You know there are unknown viruses? That sounds just plain stupid.

like what happened with
> polio and the SV40 virus, which by the way was named SV40 because it
> was the 40th monkey virus found contaminating vaccinesl.

Oh? That is news to the rest of the real world. Maybe not yours, but,
you have never shown any connection with reality.

> And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
> between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
> inflamation, fever, localized swelling, just to name a few of the
> minor reactions.

Hmm...did you read the word "antigen"? Also, side effects are
extraordinarily rare and far milder than getting the actual disease.
You are too young to know what it was like when these diseases ran
rampant. If that returns, I will not stand in your way of getting a
clue and rescuing your children from your former negligence.

> If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
> government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
> vaccines?-

Simple. They wanted to limit the number of frivolous lawsuits against
the manufacturers since that would dry up research and no progress to
future safety will be made. In no way what-so-ever is the fund a
concession of your point.
mindy - 23 Jun 2009 02:23 GMT
> > > > >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> Oh? That is news to the rest of the real world. Maybe not yours, but,
> you have never shown any connection with reality.

This link has the aactual 'minutes' to a hearing done by gov't
officials questioning witnesses...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&doc
id=f:91047.wais


> > And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
> > between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
mindy - 24 Jun 2009 17:28 GMT
> > > > > >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> This link has the aactual 'minutes' to a hearing done by gov't
> officials questioning witnesses...http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_h...

Oh, Mark,... You hurt my feelings... It seems strange to me that you
argue with everything I've posted here, except this link...  Some of
the witnesses questioned, work(ed) for the vaccine manufacturer.  It
talks about SV40(a monkey virus) having contaminated polio vaccines
available and given to the population even after clean vaccines were
made.  It talks about a strong possibility that SV40 could be causing
cancer and the need for further 'independant' studies.  I guess you
ignore what you can't or don't want to argue with?  I just wasn't sure
why you chose to avoid commenting, maybe it was too confusing to you?

> > > And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
> > > between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bob Officer - 25 Jun 2009 00:25 GMT
>> > > > > >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>Oh, Mark,... You hurt my feelings... It seems strange to me that you
>argue with everything I've posted here, except this link...  Some of

I already covered it, Mindy. Why are you stalking Mark?

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Mark Probert - 25 Jun 2009 01:32 GMT
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>
> I already covered it, Mindy. Why are you stalking Mark?

Mindy is unhappy that I rejected her "proof", the totally orchestrated
and slanted Dan Burton hearings from several years ago. Mindy, like
most pro-infectious disease merchants of disability and death, is
stuck in a time warp, where something that happened years ago trumps
everything that we have learned since then. This is not to say that
the BurtonBaloney is worth much more than a perusal tolearn how to set
up a circus.

She also does not like the fact that I refer to her as a parasite
since she does not vaccinate her children and is freeloading off of
other parents who have vaccinated their children.
mindy - 25 Jun 2009 03:09 GMT
> > On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

As a parent, I hope every one weighs the pros and cons of every
decision they make for their children, and as with choosing not to
vaccinate, hope you made an informed decision.  I feel the same with
those who do choose to vaccinate.  There is a lot of information out
there showing that vaccination is the way to go, but there is also a
lot out there that makes a parent hesitate.

I am not completely against vaccination, after all, my first two were
vaccinated.  My first born now almost 18 went to a pre-school as a
'normal child model' for dissabled children to interact with.  Several
the parents of other children there claimed that there child had been
harmed by vaccines.  Now of course, I never saw documentation of this,
but I did see the children and how severe there dissabilities were.
This made me start looking at the statistics and the possible risks.
And then when he went to public school he had to have the MMR.  Within
24hours he ended up at Overlake Hospital in Bellevue Washington with a
high fever,swollen glands in his neck, throat, and under his arms and
a terrible rash all over his body.  After several tests they concluded
he had a slight case of Measles, Mumps and Reubella.  It was only then
I decided to stop vaccinating.  If one of my children had an over
sensitivity to a vaccine then maybe one of my others might too, and
what if it turned out to be worse than this?  There are genetic
anomolies in 3 of my 4 children that may have been the cause for this
'reaction'.  So, I am not willing to take that risk.

Call me a 'parasite' if you want to, but I have my reasons, good or
not, for my decisions when it comes to the safety of my children.  I
only hope others care as much for their's as I do mine.  And medicine
has proven in it's search for making medical advancements that is has
made more than a few poor choices, 'for the greater good'. Most of
modern day medicine is leaps and bounds ahead of where it used to be
and I know to get there mistakes were not always foreseable.

But when it comes to something like injecting a possibly deadly
disease into my kids?...  and with the genetic anomoly...  I'll wait.
I don't expect others to do the same just because I say.  I just think
there is a lot of confusing information out there and the vaccine
makers try to cover too much up.  If they were acting and sharing
information with the public instead of trying not to let information
out that might scare me, I probably wouldn't be so untrusting of them,
or their medicine / vaccines.
PeterB - 25 Jun 2009 04:47 GMT
> > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 145 lines]
> not, for my decisions when it comes to the safety of my children.  I
> only hope others care as much for their's as I do mine.  

Markey doesn't respect anyone's right to choose.  Note that he isn't
campaigning against poor diet, second hand cigarette smoke,
nutritional deficiencies that affect the unborn, drug abuse, sexual
predators, or other behaviours harmful to children, just the bread-n-
butter franchise of the drug makers.  Other than that, he's a swell
guy.

> And medicine
> has proven in it's search for making medical advancements that is has
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 25 Jun 2009 14:45 GMT
> Markey doesn't respect anyone's right to choose.

Note that you are an a.shole. She has a right to choose to neglect her
children and be a parasite, just as much as I have a right to point
that out.

 Note that he isn't
> campaigning against poor diet, second hand cigarette smoke,
> nutritional deficiencies that affect the unborn, drug abuse, sexual
> predators, or other behaviours harmful to children, just the bread-n-
> butter franchise of the drug makers.  

Those are not the topics of this thread. I see you are still using
logical fallacies, i.e. red herring. If you did not use illogic, you
would use no logic at all.

Other than that, he's a swell
> guy.

You do not know what an understatement that is.

> > And medicine
> > has proven in it's search for making medical advancements that is has
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
PeterB - 26 Jun 2009 00:41 GMT
> > Markey doesn't respect anyone's right to choose.
>
> Note that you are an a.shole.

Am not.

> She has a right to choose to neglect her
> children and be a parasite, just as much as I have a right to point
> that out.

Your bias is well known, but it's only evidence that you don't know
anything about vaccine safety or effectiveness.

> >  Note that he isn't
> > campaigning against poor diet, second hand cigarette smoke,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> logical fallacies, i.e. red herring. If you did not use illogic, you
> would use no logic at all.

Your beliefs are touching, but the science supporting vaccination is
seriously flawed.  Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
just one confirmation of that.  Had you forgotten?

> Other than that, he's a swell
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter Bowditch - 26 Jun 2009 01:16 GMT
>Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
>just one confirmation of that.

Where can I see some evidence of this? No anti-vaccination liar web
sites, please, just some places with facts.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

PeterB - 26 Jun 2009 06:22 GMT
> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
> >just one confirmation of that.
>
> Where can I see some evidence of this? No anti-vaccination liar web
> sites, please, just some places with facts.

As you label well informed posters according to your promotional
campaigns on behalf of industry, I won't accomodate your idiocy.
Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
by country following use of vaccine.  Look it up.
Peter Bowditch - 26 Jun 2009 13:54 GMT
>> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
>> >just one confirmation of that.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>As you label well informed posters according to your promotional
>campaigns on behalf of industry, I won't accomodate your idiocy.

So you have no evidence to back it up. Why am I not surprised?

>Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
>by country following use of vaccine.  Look it up.

Smallpox vaccine hasn't been in widespread use for decades. Do you
have any real evidence, not from anti-vaccination liar web sites, to
back up your claim of a high death toll from vaccines that are
actually used anywhere?

I didn't think so.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

PeterB - 26 Jun 2009 17:31 GMT
> >> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
> >> >just one confirmation of that.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> So you have no evidence to back it up. Why am I not surprised?

Because you can't read, or if you can, you don't comprehend it.

> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
> >by country following use of vaccine.  Look it up.
>
> Smallpox vaccine hasn't been in widespread use for decades.

Neither have cigarettes been as widely used in some populations, but
they continue to kill.  I lost a 2yr old cousin to an adverse reaction
of diptheria vaccine.  You just can't know the absolute risk until
it's too late.

> Do you
> have any real evidence, not from anti-vaccination liar web sites, to
> back up your claim of a high death toll from vaccines that are
> actually used anywhere?

The evidence that vaccines have taken more lives than they have
theoretically saved is overwhelming.  I know you won't admit it, but
the McKinlay study cited in "Public Health at the Crossroads," pg 43,
states clearly that "only 3.5%, *at most*, of the decline in mortality
from 1900 to 1975 in the US could be attributed to measures introduced
for the major infectious diseases.  You do understand that measures
introduced for the major infectious diseases includes vaccine, don't
you?  By the way, VAERS is a collection of vaccine events whose
contents require vetting to determine the link between harmful side
effects and vaccine, exactly as it was designed to be.  The fact your
bosses refuse to vet the VAERS data is simply confirmation that they
have a great deal to lose by taking responsibiity for the harm caused
by them.  There were some 38,787 adverse events reported to VAERS from
1991 through 1995.  How many do you think have been vetted?   One
online source says that "because of its massive size and the
availability of numerous vaccine control groups, the VAERS database
provides data on adverse reactions following vaccination that is
available nowhere else.”  Even CDC says that "despite the limitations
of spontaneous reports, VAERS provides vital information of clinical
importance." But why should your bosses care when this multi-billion
dollar franchise subsidized with taxpayer dollars is in the bag?

> I didn't think so.

You don't think, period.
Stephen Wilson - 26 Jun 2009 18:23 GMT
On Jun 26, 8:54 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:

>> >> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
>> >> >just one confirmation of that.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Because you can't read, or if you can, you don't comprehend it.

Your seeming inablilty to point to some reliable figures doesn't help your
claims.

>> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>of diptheria vaccine.  You just can't know the absolute risk until
>it's too late.

No. But you weigh up the pros and cons and do the sensible thing. Hindsight
is a wonderful thing.

Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
ban all peanuts? Some children have an adverse reaction to penicillin. Some
to anaesthetics. Should they not be used?

Vaccines have a small element of risk. The fact remains that the risk of
damage from vaccines is far less than the risk of damage should you (or your
children) catch the disease(s) you chose not be immunised against
PeterB - 27 Jun 2009 00:34 GMT
On Jun 26, 1:23 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 8:54 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Your seeming inablilty to point to some reliable figures doesn't help your
> claims.

They aren't my claims.  The history of death following innoculation
with smallpox vaccine is medical history.  Look it up.

> >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
> >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> No. But you weigh up the pros and cons and do the sensible thing.

There is no epidemiology showing that vaccines save more lives than
they take.  If I'm wrong, where is it?  According to "Public Health at
the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43, "only 3.5%, *at most*, of
the decline in mortality from 1900 to 1975 in the US could be
attributed to measures introduced for the major infectious diseases."
In other words, enormous declines in the severity of these illnesses
leading to death were occuring at a time when vaccine did not exist,
and nobody knows if vaccine was responsible for even 1% of the noted
declines.

> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Foresight can save your life.

> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
> ban all peanuts?

Peanuts are not hyped as a medical intervention.  Big difference.

> Some children have an adverse reaction to penicillin. Some
> to anaesthetics. Should they not be used?

Apples and oranges. The subject is vaccine, not penicillin.

> Vaccines have a small element of risk.

How do you know?  What published source makes that claim?

> The fact remains that the risk of
> damage from vaccines is far less than the risk of damage should you (or your
> children) catch the disease(s) you chose not be immunised against

Again, how do you know?
Bob Officer - 27 Jun 2009 01:12 GMT
>On Jun 26, 1:23 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
><stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>They aren't my claims.  The history of death following innoculation
>with smallpox vaccine is medical history.  Look it up.

But you misrepresent the numbers and what they mean.

>> >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>> >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> >of diptheria vaccine.  You just can't know the absolute risk until
>> >it's too late.

That's a red herring, isn't it.
and a anecdotal recounting.

Two fallacies for the price of one.

>> No. But you weigh up the pros and cons and do the sensible thing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>and nobody knows if vaccine was responsible for even 1% of the noted
>declines.

Actually there is. If this is your only source, try again. Without
seeing his data set we have no way to weight statement.

>> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
>Foresight can save your life.

Foresight is getting the proper inoculations.

>> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
>> ban all peanuts?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Apples and oranges. The subject is vaccine, not penicillin.

But you use cigarettes, why can't he use the same misdirection. I see
you want two sets of rules.

>> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>
>How do you know?  What published source makes that claim?

All of the reliable ones.

>> The fact remains that the risk of
>> damage from vaccines is far less than the risk of damage should you (or your
>> children) catch the disease(s) you chose not be immunised against
>
>Again, how do you know?

The actuary studies?

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

PeterB - 27 Jun 2009 04:43 GMT
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:34:04 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> But you misrepresent the numbers and what they mean.

When a medical intervention kills tens of thousands of people, the
public should made aware of it.  It's called disclosure.

> >> >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
> >> >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That's a red herring, isn't it.
> and a anecdotal recounting.

No, it isn't.  I used the comparison to show the fallacy of the claim
that more widely used vaccines are safe just because a less widely
vaccine is not.

> Two fallacies for the price of one.

One idiot for the price of two (or maybe we're up to three now.)

> >> No. But you weigh up the pros and cons and do the sensible thing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Actually there is.

I'm all ears.

> If this is your only source, try again. Without
> seeing his data set we have no way to weight [sic] statement.

The published reference was cited by page number and is attributed by
Robert Beaglehole, WHO Director, so feel free to contact his office if
you have doubts.  But based on your "arguments" so far, you'd be
clueless if presented with the raw data used for the study if you saw
it.

> >> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
> >Foresight can save your life.
>
> Foresight is getting the proper inoculations.

No, it's recognizing that vaccine is an unproven and unsafe option.

> >> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
> >> ban all peanuts?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> But you use cigarettes, why can't he use the same misdirection. I see
> you want two sets of rules.

The cigarette comparison merely showed the fallacy of his claim that
more widely used vaccines are safe just because a less widely vaccine
is not.

> >> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>
> >How do you know?  What published source makes that claim?
>
> All of the reliable ones.

In other words, any source that agrees with your preconceived notions
about vaccine.  You obviously cannot distinguish between science and
science fiction.

> >> The fact remains that the risk of
> >> damage from vaccines is far less than the risk of damage should you (or your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The actuary studies?

Prove it?
Bob Officer - 27 Jun 2009 12:59 GMT
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:34:04 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>When a medical intervention kills tens of thousands of people, the
>public should made aware of it.  It's called disclosure.

However you have not posted evidence of the tens of thousands of
people dying from the intervention. Sorry waving you hand like that
is not an effective technique.

You keep mention numbers when the percentages are important. If and a
big IF it is, you have to look at the over all number of people that
having died because of the lowered overall risk of the disease.

>> >> >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>> >> >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>that more widely used vaccines are safe just because a less widely
>vaccine is not.

Not is it not a comparison at all. as you show you know well below.
it is a red herring.

>> Two fallacies for the price of one.
>
>One idiot for the price of two (or maybe we're up to three now.)

The only idiot here seems to be you. I was told only idiots continue
using and defending fallacies when caught.

>> >> No. But you weigh up the pros and cons and do the sensible thing.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>I'm all ears.

and no brains?

>> If this is your only source, try again. Without
>> seeing his data set we have no way to weight [sic] statement.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>clueless if presented with the raw data used for the study if you saw
>it.

But the actual isn't available. it is rather empty handwaving
accepting a declaration by fiat because it seems to support your
agenda. Really I am not an actuary, but I have a few years of stats
and experience using them.

You show you cluelessness by the constant refer to total numbers and
not ever a reference to the percentages. The problem is the
percentages are what meter. using raw numbers is not the correct way
to view the effectiveness.

>> >> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>No, it's recognizing that vaccine is an unproven and unsafe option.

No, you are wrong. you are again asserted something as fact which is
your false claim.  you hope if you say it enough it when be accepted.
This is the fallacy of the "big lie".

>> >> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
>> >> ban all peanuts?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>more widely used vaccines are safe just because a less widely vaccine
>is not.

No it wasn't. you introduced the use of cigarettes into the
discussion. However his use of peanuts is valid because all you are
really discussion is adverse reactions.

>> >> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>about vaccine.  You obviously cannot distinguish between science and
>science fiction.

Wrong again.

>> >> The fact remains that the risk of
>> >> damage from vaccines is far less than the risk of damage should you (or your
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Prove it?

They do. I don't have to prove it, they show it to be true.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Happy Oyster - 27 Jun 2009 14:08 GMT
>When a medical intervention kills tens of thousands of people, the
>public should made aware of it.  It's called disclosure.

Unless it is covered up by "Binnenkonsens" (consensus within a group), like with
the homeopaths. Tens of thousands patients each year die because of homeopathy,
but still no police investigation is made.

Homeopathy kills!

Signature

"Ein männlicher Fötus wird nach 40 Tagen, ein weiblicher nach 80 Tagen
ein Mensch. Mädchen entstehen durch schadhaften Samen oder feuchte Winde."
Thomas von Aquin, Kirchenlehrer und Patron der katholischen Hochschulen
** ** Religion ist Teufelszeug: http://www.reimbibel.de ** **

Stephen Wilson - 27 Jun 2009 01:29 GMT
>> Your seeming inablilty to point to some reliable figures doesn't help
>> your
>> claims.
>
>They aren't my claims.  The history of death following innoculation
>with smallpox vaccine is medical history.  Look it up.

OK. http://dermatology.about.com/cs/smallpox/a/smallpoxvacc.htm
"Death occurring after smallpox immunization is most often caused by
post-vaccinial encephalitis or progressive vaccinia. Prior to 1960,
approximately 1 to 2 people out of every 1 million people vaccinated died."
So seeing as smallpox is fatal in 30% of unvaccinated people it's quite
clear that the vaccine saved far more people than it killed.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE6DF1631F936A3575AC0A9609C8B63
"A small number of people will die in mass vaccinations no matter which
strain is used. In the Netherlands, for example, which has a population of
16 million, the researchers estimate that 10 people would die in a mass
vaccination program that used the New York strain, and 55 if the Lister
strain was used.
Still, even the highest death rates from vaccination would be dwarfed by the
number of people who could die in a widespread smallpox epidemic. While most
smallpox patients recover, death can occur in up to a third of cases."

http://www.iaff.org/ET/Smallpox/What_is_the_history_of_smallpox_vaccination.htm
In 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO  Also known at the World Health
Organization - WHO is the United Nations specialized agency for health that
seeks the attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health.
WHO is governed by 192 Member States through the World Health Assembly.)
launched a global immunization campaign to wipe out smallpox. At that time,
2 million to 3 million people died of smallpox every year. The WHO efforts
were remarkably effective, and the last naturally occurring case of smallpox
was reported in Somalia in 1977.

The global eradication of smallpox was verified and certified by a
commission of prominent scientists in 1979 and endorsed by the World Health
Assembly in 1980. In that year, smallpox vaccinations were discontinued
worldwide.

> >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
> >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> No. But you weigh up the pros and cons and do the sensible thing.

There is no epidemiology showing that vaccines save more lives than
they take.  If I'm wrong, where is it?  According to "Public Health at
the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole, pg 43, "only 3.5%, *at most*, of
the decline in mortality from 1900 to 1975 in the US could be
attributed to measures introduced for the major infectious diseases."
In other words, enormous declines in the severity of these illnesses
leading to death were occuring at a time when vaccine did not exist,
and nobody knows if vaccine was responsible for even 1% of the noted
declines.

>> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
>Foresight can save your life.

Which is exactly why immunisation is recommended. It's too late to get
immunised when you're dead.

>> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
>> ban all peanuts?
>
>Peanuts are not hyped as a medical intervention.  Big difference.

So you think it's worth parents risking the life of their child by allowing
them to eat peanuts, knowing that in some children this can be fatal? Yet
although a smaller number of children have a bad reaction to vaccines, you
think it best for them to take their chances with an otherwise preventable
disease?

>> Some children have an adverse reaction to penicillin. Some
>> to anaesthetics. Should they not be used?
>
>Apples and oranges. The subject is vaccine, not penicillin.

Penicillin is used to treat certain infections and diseases. Vaccines are
used to preven certain infections and diseases. Apples or oranges, we're
still talking fruit!

>> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>
>How do you know?  What published source makes that claim?

Almost every reliable source you care to read.
http://vaccinesafety.edu/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28854955/
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1071313
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/
http://www.iom.edu/?ID=4705

etc...

>> The fact remains that the risk of
>> damage from vaccines is far less than the risk of damage should you (or
>> your
>> children) catch the disease(s) you chose not be immunised against
>
>Again, how do you know?

Because this is what I'm told by health professionals - you know, the people
who are qualified in such matters.

Remind me - what's your qualification(s)?
PeterB - 27 Jun 2009 05:52 GMT
On Jun 26, 8:29 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> >> Your seeming inablilty to point to some reliable figures doesn't help
> >> your
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> So seeing as smallpox is fatal in 30% of unvaccinated people it's quite
> clear that the vaccine saved far more people than it killed.

That isn't science, genius, just a regurgitation of CDC hype. Dr. Tom
Mack, an expert in the epidemiology of both infectious and chronic
disease at the USC, had this to say about smallpox:

"...I'd just like to point out that not only is it a nasty syndrome,
but the case fatality is probably less than is usually advertised. And
the reason for that is that most series are heavily loaded with
children. If you look at the age-specific case-fatality rate, it's
much lower among adults. And so I would estimate that if we had an
importation today in the adult population, the case fatality would
probably be around 10 percent to 15 percent. It does have a truly
terrifying pathognomonic appearance, and that's one of the
characteristics that would make control much easier. Again, as has
been mentioned, there's acute illness during a brief period of
infectiousness. There are no reservoirs or vectors. There is a finite
half-life in the environment. And most importantly, there's a big --
one to two -- one to three-week interval between generations in which
activity for surveillance and containment takes place.  And by and
large, transmission within social limits is what occurs, not within
the population at large. And these, by and large, cannot be sustained.
In fact, WERE THERE NO SMALLPOX ERADICATION PROGRAM, MY GUESS IS THAT
SMALLPOX WOULD HAVE DIED OUT ANYWAY..." [emphasis mine]

[ref. http://www.friendsoffreedominternational.org/articles.php?command=search&q=Publi
c+Forum+on+Smallpox&action=Search+Now
]

> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE6DF1631F936A3575A...
> "A small number of people will die in mass vaccinations no matter which
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> number of people who could die in a widespread smallpox epidemic. While most
> smallpox patients recover, death can occur in up to a third of cases."

See above, all hype for marketing of vaccine.

> http://www.iaff.org/ET/Smallpox/What_is_the_history_of_smallpox_vacci...
> In 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO  Also known at the World Health
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> were remarkably effective, and the last naturally occurring case of smallpox
> was reported in Somalia in 1977.

This proves only that association is not causation.

> The global eradication of smallpox was verified and certified by a
> commission of prominent scientists in 1979 and endorsed by the World Health
> Assembly in 1980. In that year, smallpox vaccinations were discontinued
> worldwide.

The severity of illness from many infectious diseases declined
similarly all before vaccines were introduced.  Association is not
causation.

> > >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
> > >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Which is exactly why immunisation is recommended. It's too late to get
> immunised when you're dead.

Not if you die because of it, or suffer some permanent debility.  It
happened in my family, it can happen in yours.

> >> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
> >> ban all peanuts?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> think it best for them to take their chances with an otherwise preventable
> disease?

You haven't proven any of that, especially the claim that vaccines
prevent disease.

> >> Some children have an adverse reaction to penicillin. Some
> >> to anaesthetics. Should they not be used?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> used to preven certain infections and diseases. Apples or oranges, we're
> still talking fruit!

Antibiotics and vaccines are not comparable, period.

> >> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>
> >How do you know?  What published source makes that claim?
>
> Almost every reliable source you care to read.http://vaccinesafety.edu/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28854955/http://www.pubmedc
entral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1071313http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/
http://www.iom.edu/?ID=4705

CDC is known to be a co-marketing partner to the drug makers.  Not a
reliable source.

> etc...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Because this is what I'm told by health professionals - you know, the people
> who are qualified in such matters.

Your appeal to authority is touching.  It's obvious you don't apply
any critical thinking to the topic, choosing instead to "trust the
authorities," no questions asked.  It's your right, of course.

> Remind me - what's your qualification(s)?

My role here is to foster discussion without self reference, so don't
bother phishing.  You?
Stephen Wilson - 27 Jun 2009 10:51 GMT
<snip>

>> >> Some children have an adverse reaction to penicillin. Some
>> >> to anaesthetics. Should they not be used?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Antibiotics and vaccines are not comparable, period.

The MMR isn't particularly comparable to the smallpox vaccine. Yet you keep
harping on about smallpox...

>> >> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>CDC is known to be a co-marketing partner to the drug makers.  Not a
>reliable source.

So you keep saying. Your evidence? Besides, CDC was only one of the sources
I referenced.

>> etc...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>any critical thinking to the topic, choosing instead to "trust the
>authorities," no questions asked.  It's your right, of course.

Trust the authorities? Well that's what they're there for. They are the ones
who have spent years studying the subject and gaining qualifications that
demonstrate their ability. I have far more faith in the authorities than the
charlatans who pretend they can make a difference with homeopathy, laying on
of hands, etc. No - when it comes to health, I rely on the relevant
professionals to assess the situation and to recommend the best course of
action. I will then make an informed decision on whether to accept their
advice, ignore it, or seek a 2nd opinion.

>> Remind me - what's your qualification(s)?
>
>My role here is to foster discussion without self reference, so don't
>bother phishing.  You?

Me? I'm simply concerned when I see people advocating irresponsible courses
of action. You've demonstrated no medical knowledge. You don't appear to
have a professional qualification. You just seem to be someone with a
grudge, who has reached an uninformed decision and is letting it become a
misguided obsession.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. As long as your beliefs harm
nobody else, that's fine. But when you start spreading misinformation,
there's a danger that someone will take you seriously and end up making a
decision that could prove fatal.
Peter Bowditch - 27 Jun 2009 13:37 GMT
>My role here is to foster discussion without self reference, so don't
>bother phishing.

And there you go again, making up your own meaning for a word.

Nobody here is "phishing".

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Bob Officer - 27 Jun 2009 20:40 GMT
>On Jun 26, 8:29 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
><stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>"...I'd just like to point out that not only is it a nasty syndrome,
>but the case fatality is probably less than is usually advertised. And

Did you ever stop and wonder why he used the word "probably"? It is a
weasel word in its use here. what he is saying is he can't show it to
be true, and the odds are the evidence anyone can find will show he
is wrong in his belief.

>the reason for that is that most series are heavily loaded with
>children. If you look at the age-specific case-fatality rate, it's
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>In fact, WERE THERE NO SMALLPOX ERADICATION PROGRAM, MY GUESS IS THAT
>SMALLPOX WOULD HAVE DIED OUT ANYWAY..." [emphasis mine]

Guess. he is guessing? Well Then Let his guess pick the next 6
numbers in the California Lottery. I don't want medicine done by
guesswork.

>[ref. http://www.friendsoffreedominternational.org/articles.php?command=search&q=Publi
c+Forum+on+Smallpox&action=Search+Now
]

I guess that's will be added to the host of quack sites in the net.

>> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE6DF1631F936A3575A...
>> "A small number of people will die in mass vaccinations no matter which
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>See above, all hype for marketing of vaccine.

Actually it isn't hype at all. you doctor is guessing. Estimates are
done using stats and actuary studies.

>> http://www.iaff.org/ET/Smallpox/What_is_the_history_of_smallpox_vacci...
>> In 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO  Also known at the World Health
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>This proves only that association is not causation.

Are you asserting that the small pox virus wasn't the causing agent
for the deaths?

>> The global eradication of smallpox was verified and certified by a
>> commission of prominent scientists in 1979 and endorsed by the World Health
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>similarly all before vaccines were introduced.  Association is not
>causation.

You have zero data to base that claim.

>> > >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>> > >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>Not if you die because of it, or suffer some permanent debility.  It
>happened in my family, it can happen in yours.

The truth is vaccines save millions of lives per year. The not only
save lives but also prevent the damage which went hand in hand with
those virus. Did you know before the vaccination complications from
Measles Infection was the leading cause of blindness in the US in
children. IIRC, the leading cause of childhood blindness now is
sports injury.

>> >> Some children have adverse reactions to peanuts. Does this mean we should
>> >> ban all peanuts?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>You haven't proven any of that, especially the claim that vaccines
>prevent disease.

The evidence supports his assertion, while it shows you are wrong in
yours.

>> >> Some children have an adverse reaction to penicillin. Some
>> >> to anaesthetics. Should they not be used?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Antibiotics and vaccines are not comparable, period.

They are the class which is comparable, "cigarettes" which you
introduced, Are not.

>> >> Vaccines have a small element of risk.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>CDC is known to be a co-marketing partner to the drug makers.  Not a
>reliable source.

You are a conspiracy nutter? Now we see your agenda.

Your a nutter. and that is what counts.

>> etc...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>any critical thinking to the topic, choosing instead to "trust the
>authorities," no questions asked.  It's your right, of course.

He has properly applied logic. it is you that hasn't. Do not try to
shift the burden. You have not shown of the large numbers of people
that have died  because of vaccines, and your citation was a persons
beliefs and guesses. Not the best evidence in the word. When the
stats and actuary reports are brought up you play the Conspiracy
Card, like a Real Nutter.

>> Remind me - what's your qualification(s)?
>
>My role here is to foster discussion without self reference, so don't
>bother phishing.  You?

No your a conspiracy nutter with an agenda, seeking revenge on the
evil people.

In the end the verdict is you're a **nutter**.
Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

No Body - 01 Jul 2009 02:06 GMT
PLease do not confuse Peter with facts.

>>> Your seeming inablilty to point to some reliable figures doesn't help
>>> your
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
>
> Remind me - what's your qualification(s)?
Jan Drew - 02 Jul 2009 03:37 GMT
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
••••Meningitis Paralysis
•Paralytis polio
•Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
••Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
•Demyelinization diseases
•Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
•Convulsions - Seizures
•••••Mental confusion - lowered IQ
•Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.
Happy Oyster - 02 Jul 2009 05:11 GMT
>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Mercola is a charlatan and the FTC will turn him down completely, I hope.

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Peter Bowditch - 02 Jul 2009 07:40 GMT
>List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>••••Meningitis Paralysis
>•Paralytis polio

If any more evidence was needed that Mercola is a lying sack of sh.t,
this is it.

Vaccination PREVENTS polio.

Vaccination PREVENTS meningitis.

Is there no lie this man will not tell in order to sell products from
his web site?

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The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
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To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 03 Jul 2009 03:10 GMT
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.
Happy Oyster - 03 Jul 2009 06:09 GMT
>"Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

No, that's not neccessary.

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No Body - 03 Jul 2009 15:31 GMT
Get up. It appears you've sat on your reply button.

>> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
>> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
>> brain might produce these same points too.
Citizen Jimserac - 03 Jul 2009 14:05 GMT
> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
> >••••Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Vaccination PREVENTS meningitis.

Peter Bowditch!!!!!!!!!!

The chap who used to do the hilarious "Homeopathy" presentation and
"debunking" without ever having read, by your own admission, more than
ONE SINGLE BOOK on the subject.

And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?

I'm intrigued old dude, quite intrigued, by this rather anti-
scientific Bowditichian outburst.

Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
make the statistics appear more favorable ?

Are you aware of the very primitive nature of the vaccination
procedure itself, the INJECTION OF DISABLED VIRUSES into the
BLOODSTREAM?

Do you suppose some fragmentary GENETIC material, from the egg yolks,
monkey brains or wherever the hell they manufacture this stuff could
possibly be transmitted along with the "disabled" virus?

And you are...... (Citizen Jimserac slaps forehead in astonishment)
and ADVOCATE of this sort of thing?

Citizen Jimserac
No Body - 03 Jul 2009 15:38 GMT
On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Vaccination PREVENTS meningitis.

Peter Bowditch!!!!!!!!!!

The chap who used to do the hilarious "Homeopathy" presentation and
"debunking" without ever having read, by your own admission, more than
ONE SINGLE BOOK on the subject.

   How many cookbooks for dishes made of sh.t do you have to read to know
that cooking and eating turds is a really bad idea? Hmmmm?

And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?

I'm intrigued old dude, quite intrigued, by this rather anti-
scientific Bowditichian outburst.

Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
make the statistics appear more favorable ?

Are you aware of the very primitive nature of the vaccination
procedure itself, the INJECTION OF DISABLED VIRUSES into the
BLOODSTREAM?

Do you suppose some fragmentary GENETIC material, from the egg yolks,
monkey brains or wherever the hell they manufacture this stuff could
possibly be transmitted along with the "disabled" virus?

And you are...... (Citizen Jimserac slaps forehead in astonishment)
and ADVOCATE of this sort of thing?

Citizen Jimserac
Happy Oyster - 03 Jul 2009 17:18 GMT
>Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
>the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
>make the statistics appear more favorable ?

Can you prove that?

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Citizen Jimserac - 03 Jul 2009 17:55 GMT
> >Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
> >the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
> >make the statistics appear more favorable ?
>
> Can you prove that?

Can you read and use a search engine?

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

And the following quote (see below) taken from the sourcewatch website
here:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Medical_Industrial_Complex#Polio_elim
inated_from_statistics_by_redefinition_of_disease_prior_to_vaccine


"Polio eliminated from statistics by redefinition of disease prior to
vaccine"

"According to researcher-author Dr. Viera Scheibner,[29] 90% of polio
cases were eliminated from statistics by this redefinition of the
disease before the vaccine was introduced. In fact, the Salk vaccine
was continuing to cause polio induced paralysis in several countries
where there were no epidemics from the wild virus. For example,
thousands cases of viral and aseptic meningitis are reported annually
in the U.S. which were diagnosed as polio before the Salk vaccine.
Also, the numbers of cases required to declare an official epidemic,
increased from 20 to 35. Furthermore, the requirement for the
inclusion of paralysis in the statistics changed from symptoms lasting
24 hours to 60 days, in paralysis statistics was changed from symptoms
for 24 hours to symptoms for 60 days. Given such radical changes in
the official definition and reading of statistics of Polio, it is not
too surprising that incidence decreased radically (at least on paper).
"

Citizen Jimserac
Happy Oyster - 03 Jul 2009 21:50 GMT
>> >Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
>> >the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

That is rotten bullshit by a bunch of paranoid liars.

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              der Knochenkult ist religiotisch."

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Peter Bowditch - 04 Jul 2009 00:59 GMT
>> >Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
>> >the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html

Got any information not from an anti-vaccination liar web site?

>http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

Got any information not from an anti-vaccination liar web site?

>And the following quote (see below) taken from the sourcewatch website
>here:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>"According to researcher-author Dr. Viera Scheibner,[29] 90% of polio

Scheibner? Got any information not from an anti-vaccination idiot?

<snip lies>

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Citizen Jimserac - 04 Jul 2009 01:59 GMT
> CitizenJimserac<jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> <snip lies>

Whoops!  Calm down old Bowdie!  Try not to lose the lid on your
teapot!!!

Liars all of them eh?  Just like the Homeopaths that you disparage.

Such an overwhelming intellect, that Bowdie - convincing arguments,
informative links,
and absolutely subtle repartee.

Well the links are there, you can read or you can bury your head in
the sand... the choice IS yours.

Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 04 Jul 2009 09:24 GMT
>> CitizenJimserac<jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>Well the links are there, you can read or you can bury your head in
>the sand... the choice IS yours.

I've read them. Do you think I am new at this business with
anti-vaccination liars?

Like I asked, do you have anything from anyone who talks sense?

>Citizen Jimserac

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 03:25 GMT
On Jul 3, 1:10 pm, Happy Oyster <happy.oys...@ariplex.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:38:17 -0500, "No Body" <some...@microsoft.org>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Can you prove that?

Can you read and use a search engine?

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

And the following quote (see below) taken from the sourcewatch website
here:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Medical_Industrial_Complex#Polio_elim
inated_from_statistics_by_redefinition_of_disease_prior_to_vaccine


"Polio eliminated from statistics by redefinition of disease prior to
vaccine"

"According to researcher-author Dr. Viera Scheibner,[29] 90% of polio
cases were eliminated from statistics by this redefinition of the
disease before the vaccine was introduced. In fact, the Salk vaccine
was continuing to cause polio induced paralysis in several countries
where there were no epidemics from the wild virus. For example,
thousands cases of viral and aseptic meningitis are reported annually
in the U.S. which were diagnosed as polio before the Salk vaccine.
Also, the numbers of cases required to declare an official epidemic,
increased from 20 to 35. Furthermore, the requirement for the
inclusion of paralysis in the statistics changed from symptoms lasting
24 hours to 60 days, in paralysis statistics was changed from symptoms
for 24 hours to symptoms for 60 days. Given such radical changes in
the official definition and reading of statistics of Polio, it is not
too surprising that incidence decreased radically (at least on paper).
"

Citizen Jimserac
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 12:36 GMT
>On Jul 3, 1:10 pm, Happy Oyster <happy.oys...@ariplex.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:38:17 -0500, "No Body" <some...@microsoft.org>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Can you read and use a search engine?

Oh, Jan Drew does it again...

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             glaubt selbst manch Pfarrer heute nicht."

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Mark Probert - 05 Jul 2009 02:10 GMT
> > >Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
> > >the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html

You cite a loon, with no credibility.

> http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

An anti-vaccination website.

> And the following quote (see below) taken from the sourcewatch website
> here:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> "According to researcher-author Dr. Viera Scheibner,

A certified ant-vaccination liar of the worst sort.

Got any real sources?
Jan Drew - 05 Jul 2009 05:31 GMT
"Mark Probert" <mark.probert@gmail.com> blathered:

> On Jul 3, 1:10 pm, Happy Oyster <happy.oys...@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html

You cite a loon, with no credibility.

And you remained silent when disabarred.

> http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

An anti-vaccination website.

In your so-called mind.

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Polio Index:

What part did vaccines play in the eradication of Polio?
Background Graphs: 1,   link 2   link 3 Reference links Vitamin C
A few facts:
Before the first Salk vaccine trials, polio incidence had already declined
greatly. Decline was even greater by the time the Salk and Sabine vaccines
came into widespread use. The intensive use in 1958 was followed by more
than a doubling of incidence. At no time after the introduction of the two
vaccines against polio was decline greater than before vaccine introduction.

Graph showing Death from Polio:
Australia The Polio Death Rate was Decreasing on its Own
Before the Vaccine was Introduced

Original available at: www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html  [United States
and England]
According to VACCINES Are They Really Safe & Effective? by Neil Z. Miller,
"From 1923 to 1953,before the Salk killed-virus vaccine was introduced, the
polio death rate in the United States and England had already declined on
its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively. Source International
Mortality Statistics (1981) by Michael Alderson."
See page 16.
For a great graph: Images Of Poliomyelitis Polio in the United States
Graphic Timeline: U.S. 1870-1998
http://www.geocities.com/harpub/pol_all.htm
See also: http://www.geocities.com/harpub/index.html

For a table of USA polio incidence:
http://www.post-polio.org/ipn/ir-usa.html

For a graph of Reported Polio Cases and OPV33 Coverage in the Western
Pacific Region, 1974 -2004 see this URL
http://www.wpro.who.int/sites/epi/data/DAT_Polio_OPV3.htm
Note the generally poor fit between vaccination rates and polio incidence
rates. Click on the graph to see enlarged version.

For a PowerPoint slide, but with less than complete coverage of the vaccine
numbers click here:

1. Before the modern era, polio was a mild disease seldom resulting in
paralysis.
2. The largest epidemic occured about 1950 and had significantly declined by
1955 when vaccine was first introduced.
3. Disease can not be 'conquered' without addressing the disease cause.
4. Disease is not caused by a lack of "cow-pus", rotting material or
carcinogenic poisons in the bloodstream.
5. Polio causes included:
pre-polio vaccines
nutritional imbalances
environmental poisons most notably pesticides
6. Creation of and introduction of the Salk vaccine was motivated by fear
that, without the vaccine, contributions to 'polio research' charities would
drop.
Test results on the Salk vaccine were biased by throwing out polio cases
'after the first vaccination'. Test results were also biased by including
only data from the '11 most accurate states' while ignoring the data from
the other 33 states included in the test. I wonder what the '33 least
accurate state' data would have shown?
7. Introduction of the Salk vaccine was beset first with known deaths
related to the vaccine and then by a rise in polio cases.
8. Truth of the vaccine's true detriment was withheld from the public.
Several states had rises in polio rate following vaccine introduction.
9. In the 3 years following the introduction of the vaccine:
The definition of epidemic was changed from 20 cases to 35 cases [per
100,000]!
The definition of polio was changed from paralisis occuring for 24 hours or
more to paralisis occuring for 2 months!
The remaining polio cases were then diagnosed as meningitis!
Thus the factor(s) which caused the 1950 and onward decline was in no way
contributed to by vaccine. The vaccine was a cause of disease, not a
preventive of disease!
"Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testified before a Senate subcommittee
that nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral polio
vaccine."

"Official data shows that large scale vaccination has failed to obtain any
significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to
provide protection" - Dr. Sabin, developer of Polio vaccine.

"Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin Polio Vaccines, being
made from monkey kidney tissue, has been directly responsible for the major
increase in leukaemia in this country." - Dr F. Klenner, M.D.

"Provocation polio. That is the truth about those outbreaks of polio. And I
offer a well considered personal opinion that polio is a man made
disease." -Viera Scheibner, Ph.D.

"Poliomyelitis trends in Pondicherry, south India, 1989-91" (Journal of
Epidemiology and Community Health [London], vol. 51, no. 4, August 1997,
pages 443-48): About 54 percent of children lamed as a result of
poliomyelitis had received three doses of oral polio vaccine before the
onset of paralysis.

Above quotes and many others to be found at:
Quotes

References:

http://www.newsmax.com/ - NewsMax.com Wires
Monday, Aug. 7, 2006
India Officials: Coke, Pepsi Contain Harmful Levels of Pesticides
The group said that Coke samples had 25 times the amount of pesticides as
three years ago, while Pepsi products contained 30 times more.

Coca-Cola syrup is shipped from the U.S. to bottling plants around the
world, and mixed with local water. [Thus the question, is it India's water
or the imported syrup, or both, that are polluted with pesticides. In any
case, pesticide poisoning is a primary cause of polio.]

Download Part one of the New Polio Articles as a PDF (Acrobat File) 855K
Special report: Polio: the virus and the vaccine by Janine Roberts published
in The Ecologist, May 2004. Part 1
"The weight of evidence also strongly suggests that the search for this
virus, and for a vaccine, was and is based on a flawed theory. This has
tragically distracted the medical establishment from the science that might
have cured a large number of children - and which could still do so."
Download Part 2 of the New Polio articles as a PDF file 156K
Part 2,
In 1954, a scientist discovered that many hamsters injected with polio
vaccine growth medium 'grew large cancer tumours.'

" 'If you continue to allow these contaminated [polio] vaccines to go out, I
guarantee you that over the next 20 years you will have epidemics of cancer
unlike the world has ever seen'. Bernice Eddy's testimony to the U.S.
Congress in 1972."
http://www.vaccines.plus.com
THE WEB INQUIRER - An Investigative Journal
With information on Viruses, toxins and good health.
Polio - the wrong virus, the wrong diagnosis, the wrong vaccine and the
wrong cure
While on their website, be sure to click on STATISTICS to bring up their
graph showing that Polio, renamed AFP now, is actually increasing in the
SE/E Asia region. (http://www.vaccines.plus.com/AFP-graph-1.html)

To understand why disease problems go far beyond virus and why health must
take into account how lifestyle choices determine susceptibility, see WHY
VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web4.html

http://vaccinetruth.org/page_13.htm A mystery with enormous implications has
stumped some of the smartest minds in cancer research. How, might a
cancer-causing monkey virus, wind up in human tumors? The mystery began in
1988 with Dr. Michael Carbone. He found the SV40 virus in 60% of the human
lung tumors he was studying, (SV40 stands for Simian Virus the 40th virus
found). Eventually, sixty different labs confirmed the results.

Neil_Z_Miller_Peer-Reviewed_Study.pdf Neil Z. Miller, author of Vaccines,
Are they really Safe and Effective? has compiled a 13 page history:
The polio vaccine: a critical assessment of its arcane history, efficacy,
and long-term health-related consequences

Two 200Kbyte JPEG files of: The Cutter Incident, 50 Years Later by Paul A.
Offit "The agency's scientists found that two production pools made by
Cutter Laboratories (accounting for 120,000 doses) contained live
polio-virus. Amoung the children who had received vaccine from these pools,
abortive polio (characterized by headache, stiff neck, fever, and muscle
weakness) developed in 40,000; 51 were permanently paralyzed; and 5 died.
Cutter's vaccine also started a polio epidemic: 113 people in the children's
families or communities were paralyzed, and 5 died. It was one of the worst
pharmaceutical disasters in U.S. history."

F E B R U A R Y 2 0 0 0 The Virus and the Vaccine
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/02/002bookchin.htm
A simian virus known as SV40 has been associated with a number of rare human
cancers. This same virus contaminated the polio vaccine administered to 98
million Americans from 1955 to 1963. Federal health officials see little
reason for concern. A growing cadre of medical researchers disagree

Tetanus and Polio Article by Viera Schiebner
Polio has been painted as some natural scourge of humanity. Yet, epidemics
and outbreaks of polio in Europe go back to only less than 100 years. The
1949-50 and later outbreaks of polio were demonstrably caused by intensified
diphtheria and whooping cough vaccination, tonsillectomies, other injections
(painkillers) and a variety of traumas. They invented a name for it:
provocation poliomyelitis. Even though this has not been discussed in
literature, the earliest outbreaks were no doubt triggered by intensified
smallpox vaccination. The evidence for this connection comes from Egyptian
excavations: some mummies had withered limbs; but of course, variolation (a
crude form of smallpox inoculation) has been practised thousands of years
ago, and most particularly, in Egypt.

Editorial for the Vaccine Risk Awareness Network (VRAN) Newsletter
(June-Oct. 2001)
That the polio virus is the sole cause of polio is accepted by most people
as gospel, and that the Salk and Sabin vaccines eradicated polio in the
western world is etched into our collective consciousness as the major
medical miracle of our time. But the history of polio and its vaccines is
shrouded in a murky mist of politico/scientific manipulation, altered
statistics, redefinition and reclassification of the disease, increased
cases of vaccine induced paralytic polio, and monkey viruses transmitted by
contaminated vaccines to millions of people worldwide.

Polio Vac & Accute Flaccid Paralysis
http://www.chronicillnet.org/articles/paralyticpolio.html
With So Little Poliovirus Detected Around the World, What Is Causing Today's
Outbreaks of Acute Flaccid Paralysis?
By Neenyah Ostrom

Polio Vaccine Linked to Lymphoma
"The small DNA-containing polio viruses (simian virus 40 [SV40], JC virus,
and BK virus) are known to infect human beings, to have cancer causing
potential, and to be associated with some human cancers."
"However, now a major journal, Lancet, has published clear evidence that
contaminated polio vaccine is responsible for up to half of the 55,000
non-Hodgkin's lymphoma cases per year.

SV40 Polio Vaccine - Deadly Cure? [More on contamination]
"that almost 100 million Americans were exposed (to SV-40) through a
government sponsored program, but for over 30 years, there has been
virtually no government effort to see if anyone's been harmed by the
exposure." He added, "The government will not fund science that makes it
look culpable."

SV40, polio vaccine, and cancer: Now beyond coincidence?
9 April 2002, " San Francisco - At the American Association of Cancer
Research meeting here today, controversy continued to swirl around
accusations that contaminated polio vaccine stocks are to blame for certain
cancers, based on the publication a month ago of two high-profile papers
linking the simian virus SV40 to human lymphomas."

Chronic Fatigue--The New Face of Polio? www.VacciNetWork.org

http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/online/vaccine/polio.html
Paralytic Polio Linked To Vaccinations - Compiled by John Lesso, CAFMR - Not
only did the polio vaccine have nothing to do with the decline of paralytic
polio, evidence shows that vaccinations for this and other diseases -
notably diphtheria, triple antigen (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus), and
smallpox - were responsible for its increase.
Read at www.pnc.au site

"In 1907, [during] an epidemic of poliomyelitis... no infant who was fed
exclusively on the breast developed poliomyelitis."
This and lots of other goodies found at:
http://www.geocities.com/harpub/index.html
including a wonderful graph of CNS poisons versus polio:
Quotes follow:
"The experiments of Clark, Frazier, and Amoss show that after intravenous
inoculation in monkeys, the virus [filtrate] of poliomyelitis disappears
from the blood within 72 hours; and other observations have shown that it is
only after enormous intravenous doses of the virus that the monkey develops
the disease. Smaller doses intravenously fail to produce any disturbance."
"If injected with 250 to 500 cc [1 to 2 cups!] of the virus by a similar
route the animal succumbed to the disease."

George Draper, Acute Poliomyelitis (1917) 1 to 2 cups injected into a 20 lb
Rhesus monkey is equal to 7 to 14 cups injected into a 150 lb man.

Salk Vaccine:
http://www.geocities.com/harpub/salkvacc.htm
Read full article Quotes follow:
Full scale vaccination begins April 12, 1955. The target age group is 6-9
years [Not the age of maximum susceptibility](Scheele, A.S., Shannon, J.A.,
"Health Implications In A Program Of Vaccination Against Poliomyelitis",
JAMA, August 6, 1955).
The Cutter Laboratory disaster is discovered 13 days later, April 25, 1955.
Documented cases caused by the Cutter vaccine were 79.

Polio incidence began its sharp plummet in 1952. This is 3 years before the
the vaccine was licensed by HEW in 1955. Thus, the Salk polio vaccination
did not significantly correlate with declining polio incidence. However, a
significant correlation with declining polio incidence is found with reports
in 1952 that nursing cow calves were dying with of symptoms and physiology
when their mother's were fed fodder that had been treated with DDT.

The plummet also correlates with the 1951 government/industry debate over
pesticide safety.

The plummet also correlates with the phase-out of persistent pesticides
production in the early 1950s. ("Persistent" pesticides are those which do
not easily biodegrade, such as DDT, BHC, arsenic compounds, and lead
compounds.)

Dr. Thomas Francis did not mention in his key evaluation of the 1954 Salk
field trials that those who contracted polio after their first innoculation
and before their second inoculation were placed in the "not-inoculated"
list.'

At the bottom of their web page is a long list of Vaccine Links.

http://www.geocities.com/harpub/scobpois.htm
From Archive Of Pediatrics (April, 1952)
The Poison Cause of Poliomyelitis And Obstructions To Its Investigation
Statement prepared for the Select Committee to Investigate the Use of
Chemicals in Food Products, United States House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
Ralph R. Scobey, M.D.

Polio in the United States
Graphic Timeline: U.S. 1870-1998
http://www.geocities.com/harpub/pol_all.htm
With 3 wonderful graphs relating DDT/etc to polio cases.

A Critique Of Scientific Literature
Pesticides And Polio
http://www.geocities.com/harpub/overview.htm

Did Polio Trials Trigger Aids Virus?

POLIO: Indian State Complains To WHO About Vaccine Quality

hiding polio, wonderful quotes:
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html
Hiding Polio: After vaccination 'polio' became 'meningitis'
Year Polio Meningitis Total
July 1955 273 50 323
July 1961 65 161 226
July 1963 31 151 182
Sep. 1966 5 256 261
The above often quoted figures are credited to the Los Angeles County [USA]
Health Index: Morbidity and Mortality, Reportable Diseases
POLIO: Indian State Complains To WHO About Vaccine Quality
Following the detection of 26 new polio cases in India's Uttar Pradesh
state, officials there have complained to the World Health Organization
about the low quality of vaccines they received three months ago. "We
intimated our dissatisfaction with the stuff being provided to UP and asked
them to be careful next time,"
India: Children made sick by Oral Polio Vaccine or Vitamin A? & WHO denies.
Morbidity and Mortality after Polio vaccination in Assam
--------------------------------------------------------
CALCUTTA: At least 10 children have died in India's northeastern state of
Assam of side effects after being administered a vaccine during an polio
immunisation campaign run by the state government. More than 500 children
have been admitted to government and private hospitals after falling sick.
Angry groups of parents have surrounded offices of the local administration
in protest in Assam's southern city of Silchar.

THE STORY OF THE SALK ANTI-POLIOMYELITIS VACCINE BY M. BEDDOW BAYLY,
M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P. 1956 (Whale.To Site)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Collection of articles on Vitamin C - (on Vaclib.org site)
polio and iodine and vitamin c, DoctorYourSelf.com

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/199x/index.htm#Landwehr-1991
The Origin of the 42-Year Stonewall of Vitamin C
Landwehr, Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, 1991
"Dr. F. R. Klenner, Reidsville, N.C.: It might be interesting to learn how
poliomyelitis was treated in Reidsville, N.C., during the 1948 epidemic. In
the past seven years, virus infections have been treated and cured in a
period of seventy-two hours by the employment of massive frequent injections
of ascorbic acid, or vitamin C."

Diet Prevents Polio by Dr Sandler (Whale.To Site)

http://www.mercola.com/article/Diet/sugar/polio_sugar.htm
Sugar Increases Polio Risk -- Lessons For Other Viral Infections
A chapter from the book Diet Prevents Polio written by Benjamin P. Sandler,
M.D., and published in 1951, at the height of the polio epidemic.
In 1938, the only laboratory animal that could contract polio by
experimental inoculation was the monkey.
[Rabbits were completely immune to polio...] The next step was to lower the
blood sugar of the rabbit to subnormal values with insulin injections, and
then inoculate the rabbit with polio virus. This was done and it was found
that the rabbits became infected and developed the disease.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.mercola.com/2002/mar/30/polio.htm
Vaccine Confirmed as Source of Polio Outbreak
A recent outbreak of the paralyzing viral infection polio in Haiti and the
Dominican Republic has been traced to a strain of oral polio vaccine (OPV)
that mutated back to virulence, according to international health officials.
Based on genetic analysis of viral samples, they believe the outbreak, which
struck nearly two dozen children in both countries between 2000 and 2001,
arose from OPV given to one child in 1998-1999.

VaccinationNews.com The Thimerosal/SV40 Connection - Public Health's Ongoing
Scandal

www.who.int - WHO, using mice instead of monkeys in polio vaccine testing

Polio vaccine genocide in Uganda at http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.htm

Polio Awareness Day:
Medical Myths Die Hard
by Gary Krasner - September 19, 2006.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vaccination Liberation - Idaho Chapter
Contact: Vaccination Liberation
"Free Your Mind....From The Vaccine Paradigm"
www.vaclib.org
Page last modified: - - 04/12/2009 00:40:29
http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm

> And the following quote (see below) taken from the sourcewatch website
> here:
>
> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Medical_Industrial_Complex...

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Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 13:44 GMT
>> Can you read and use a search engine?
>>
>> http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio1.html
>
>You cite a loon, with no credibility.

Jan Drew caught again with forging posts.

Signature

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"Wer liebt seinen Sohn, der prügelt ihn bald,
wer hasst seinen Sohn, der vermeidet Gewalt."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Citizen Jimserac - 05 Jul 2009 15:02 GMT
...

...

Thanks again goes to Jan Drew for posting numerous interesting links
raising questions to be answered and mentioning facts easily ignored,
bypassed and/or distorted by those who blindly espouse the supposed
benefits of vaccination while overlooking the effects of vaccinosis,
long term consequences, and the very very important questions asking
if the vaccines really did what they were supposed to have
accomplished.

Of PARTICULAR interest is the following web site, some of whose
comments are quoted here to establish historical referential and give
context to the motivation behind our questioning of the entire
spectrum of pharmaceutical/vaccination/and single system of medicine
orthodoxy and the supposed benefits of this exclusionary and
poltically connected system:

From:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Medical_Industrial_Complex

"Historical context"

"In the early half of the 20th century, petrochemical giants organized
a coup on the medical research facilities, hospitals and universities.
The Rockefeller family sponsored research and donated sums to
universities and medical schools which had drug based research. They
extended this policy to foreign universities and medical schools where
research was drug based and further extended this policy to foreign
establishments through their International Education Board.
Establishments and research which was were not drug based were refused
funding and soon desolved in favor of lucrative pharmaceutical
industry. In 1939 a Drug Trust alliance was formed by the Rockefeller
Empire and I.G. Farben. After WWII, After the war, I.G. Farben was
dismantled, but later emerged as separate corporations within the
alliance. Well known companies included: General Mills, Kellogg,
Nestle, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Procter and Gamble and Roche. The
Rockefeller Empire, in tandem with Chase Manhattan Bank owns over half
of the pharmaceutical interests in the United States. It is the
largest drug manufacturing combine in the world. Since WWII, the
pharmaceutical industry has steadily netted increasing profits to
become the world's second largest manufacturing industry [1] (after
the arms industry). "
]
"U.S. health statistics & pharmaceuticals"

"Americans spent on roughly 200 billion dollars on prescription drugs
in 2002, accounting for approximately one half of pharmaceutical sales
world wide. Yet, as of 2006 the infant mortality rate in the U.S.
ranked at 21st in the world (under Greece and South Korea and slightly
higher than Poland) and life expectancy ranked at number 17. [2]"

Now the interested reader will note carefully the following remarks,
quoted from the same web site:

"Profits on the newest drugs rather than on the older ones "

"Conventional medicine has consistently insisted that it's methods are
verified by science; to the point of ridiculing and discrediting other
methods. At times, conventional physicians have even viciously
attacked member of their own profession who have questioned
conventional treatments. However, medical history has shown a pattern
of discovery and application of drug treatments. "

"Initially, there is great excitement about a new drug's discovery.
Research has seemingly proven its safety and efficacy and leads to
widespread appreciation for the drug's ability to provide relief. Over
time, there are minor concerns about the drug's side effects, until
more research and clinical practice uncover more serious concerns
about its side effects. ..until there is general acknowledgment that
the drug doesn't work as well as previously assumed, and there is
recognition of an increasingly long list of serious side effects over
time. However, these problems are not really problems because a new
drug emerges, with short-term research that suggests it is a better
drug after all. ... Like the fashion industry with its regular changes
in style, the drug industry makes its profits on the newest drugs
rather than on the older ones. [3] "

"One of the most quoted sources of pharmaceutical industry statistics
is IMS Health, which estimated worldwide sales for prescription drugs
to be about $400 billion in 2002. [4] In 1996, researcher Sheldon
Krimsky of Tufts University; studies nearly 800 scientific papers in
prominent biology and medical journals. In one third of all cases, the
author had financial interests in the company sponsoring the research.
This information was not disclosed to readers in most cases. Also in
1996, a Stanford University study by Mildred Cho, a senior research
scholar at the Center for Biomedical Ethics; found that 98% of
university studies funded by drug companies reported new therapies to
be more effective than standard ones. By comparison, only 79% of non-
industry financed studies found new drugs to be more effective. [5]"

The interested reader will read, farther down the same web page at
THIS LINK:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Medical_Industrial_Complex

regarding the failure of some vaccination campaigns to attain any
worthwhile goal or provide "immunization", for example documented
cases of measles outbreaks even though 98% of the students were
"innoculated".

It is clear that it is NOT JUST THE FAILURE OF VACCINATIONS and
vaccinosis side effects, but the entire spectrum of one medicine
treats all syndrome which is at the root of the problem.   That goes
for the delusional and simplistic notion that one "shot" protects all
too.

Ladies and gentlemen, the conclusion is obvious.

DRASTIC reforms are needed to end this perfidy.

Citizen Jimserac
Stephen Wilson - 05 Jul 2009 16:45 GMT
>Ladies and gentlemen, the conclusion is obvious.

It certainly is.

In the USA prior to 1985, Haemophilus Influenzae type b (Hib) caused serious
infections in 20,000 children each year, including meningitis (12,000 cases)
and pneumonia (7,500 cases). In 2002, there were 34 cases of Hib disease.

In the 1964-1965 epidemic, there were 12.5 million cases of rubella (German
measles). Of the 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome,
11,600 were deaf, 3,580 were blind, and 1,800 were mentally retarded as a
result of the infection. There were 9 cases of rubella in 2004 and only four
cases of congenital rubella between 2001 and 2004.

Before 1963, more than 3 million cases of measles and 500 deaths from
measles were reported each year. More than 90% of children had measles by
age 15. In 2002, there were 44 cases of measles

In 1952, polio paralyzed more than 21,000 people. In 2002, there were no
cases of polio in the United States.

In the early 1940s, there was an average of 175,000 cases of pertussis
(whooping cough) per year, resulting in the deaths of 8,000 children
annually. In 2002, 9,771 cases were reported.

In the 1920s, there were 100,000 to 200,000 cases of diphtheria each year
and 13,000 people died from the disease. In 2002, there was only one case of
diphtheria in the United States.

The decline in these diseases is linked directly to the high level of
immunization in the United States. Of course, some people are convinced
there's some kind of evil conspiracy plot going on. These people aren't
happy with the good health we enjoy today and would see us return to the
misery of years that they can't even remember.

There was a measles outbreak in Colorado in December 1994. Out of 625
children exposed to the disease, 17 got measles. Of those 609 who had
previously been vaccinated, only 10 (or 1.6%) developed measles. Of the 16
children who were not immunized, 7 (or 44%) developed measles. Thus, the
risk for immunized children was less than 2% while the risk for unimmunized
children was 44%.

Do the maths. Learn the facts. The sad thing is if you had your way, you
wouldn't live long enought to regret it.
No Body - 05 Jul 2009 18:03 GMT
>>Ladies and gentlemen, the conclusion is obvious.
>
> It certainly is.

   It is a waste of time to try to pound sense into the head of
antivaccine type people; it is their religion and is believed in with
no evidence to support it and abundant evidence to the contrary.

> In the USA prior to 1985, Haemophilus Influenzae type b (Hib) caused
> serious infections in 20,000 children each year, including
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Do the maths. Learn the facts. The sad thing is if you had your way,
> you wouldn't live long enought to regret it.
Mark Probert - 06 Jul 2009 01:34 GMT
> >>Ladies and gentlemen, the conclusion is obvious.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> antivaccine type people; it is their religion and is believed in with
> no evidence to support it and abundant evidence to the contrary.

Quite true. I just like to see them weasel and dance around the
facts.

> > In the USA prior to 1985, Haemophilus Influenzae type b (Hib) caused
> > serious infections in 20,000 children each year, including
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 05 Jul 2009 19:36 GMT
On Jul 5, 11:46 am, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I'm going to focus on just ONE of the "impressive" statistics posted
by Stephen here, I'm sure he is well meaning and believes that the
information he has posted is indicative of the overwhelming success of
vaccination in eradicating disease.

I know this because I once thought exactly as he does and, like
Steven, routinely accepted these figures as proof.

Alas, a closer examination of at least some of them is indicative of
some serious anti-scientific, marketing, misrepresentative shenanigans
going on, and that has been going on, for quite some time - there HAVE
been warnings and words of caution in accepting the "evidence" of
these numbers but Stephen is to be forgiven for blindly accepting them
as I once did.

NOW let's just take a look at one of the statistics offered as proof
of efficacy of the vaccinations:

"In 1952, polio paralyzed more than 21,000 people. In 2002, there were
no
cases of polio in the United States. "

You will observe that I made note of web sites which indicated that at
about the time of the enormous public impetus to take polio vaccines,
the very definition of what polio is was altered in such a manner that
things which were defined under the generic title of POLIO alone were
later split up into a variety of other disease nomenclature which did
not have the word "Polio" in their names.

There were 21,000 paralyzed by polio in 1952.  The more statistically
minded among you can research that number if you like, but I'll accept
it.   And NOW for the main point.....
IF THE DEFINITION OF WHAT POLIO IS WAS CHANGED IN THE 1950'S, AND WHAT
WAS FORMERLY CALLED POLIO is now known as GUILLAINE BARRE' OR VARIOUS
TYPES OF MENINGITIS, or  a variety of other diseases going by
different names, then in order for Stephen's statistic to be
meaningful,  he would have to assert that after taking the POLIO
vaccine, NONE of these other diseases occurred in 2002.  And diseases
such as Polio, are known to fade away, all by themselves, with no
vaccines, periodically.  So far we've got post hoc ergo propter hoc
and nothing more.

AND, Stephen would have to tell us how many of these other diseases
were INCLUDED in the 1952 statistic, which he can't do because nobody
knows that.   How many of the 21,000 1952 paralyzed cases were
Meningitis?  Guillaine-Barre'? Something else?   We don't and can't
know that and therefore the conclusion of giving the vaccines all the
credit,  is tainted, if not completely invalid.

To get the exact scientific analysis of the vaccines utility, we need
exact mathematically precise models of the immune system, in detail
and we don't have anything like that at this time - not to mention the
variances from person to person for genetic, racial and socio-economic
reasons. Not to mention the changed socio-economic conidtions -
improved diet, quality of life, improved waste disposal and many other
factors.    This is KEY.   We have no long term studies on who is
getting what diseases after taking which vaccines!   This is part of
the uproar of the autism - vaccine connection.

Has there been studies of how many of those who took the vaccines
STILL got the diseases they were supposed to prevent?   DON'T make me
provide the links.  You KNOW there have been such cases, many of
them.

So the supposedly airtight "overwhelmingly"positive vaccine statistic
is in fact, nothing more than an opinion dressed up over some
incomplete and hastily drawn conclusions from shaky and misleading
data.

It is OPINION.    NOTHING mathematically certain about it.   Thank you
Marketing department, very much.

DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

Citizen Jimserac
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 21:03 GMT
>On Jul 5, 11:46 am, "Stephen Wilson"
><stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

That is crap.

DO SHOW the SOURCES for your claims!

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer reich ist, der herrscht, das ist keineswegs schlecht,
wer arm ist und borgt ist des Herrschenden Knecht."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Stephen Wilson - 05 Jul 2009 21:29 GMT
>It is OPINION.    NOTHING mathematically certain about it.   Thank you
>Marketing department, very much.
>
>DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

Quite right. But you're only stating your opinion too. Just how valid do you
think it is?

For everyone else: Do your own research. Listen to people who are qualified
to give out advice. And don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Somebody asked whether vaccinations were safe on an on-line board. Here's
one response:
"My son was the only child vaccinated against polio when he was attending a
Rudolf Steiner school in Sweden in the late seventies - all the other
children were vaccine free, and they all came down with polio.
The risks and dangers of vaccines are microscopic compared to the risks and
dangers of the diseases in question. Have you ever seen a child die of
measles, of whooping cough, of smallpox? Have you seen the devastating
damage on the gonads of young men who were not vaccinated against mumps? I
have.
But if you wish to sacrifice your children so as to reduce the
overpopulation of the world, all power to you."

And if you have any pets, don't you make sure they are immunised
appropriately? Vaccines have not just been proved effective in humans - they
have also reduced the extent of several diseases in the animal kingdom.

I remember all the fuss in 1999 when so many people thought the world was
going to end, either because they were expecting the return of Jesus, or
because they thought all the computers would malfunction because they didn't
understant what the Y2K bug was all about. Now those same people are kicking
up a fuss because they're equally uninformed about the benefits (or
otherwise) of vaccines. Still, look at it this way. Those people who are
daft enough not to immunise their children will end up losing them during
the next epidemic. So I suppose that's one way of re-introducing natural
selection.
t - 05 Jul 2009 22:03 GMT
>>It is OPINION.    NOTHING mathematically certain about it.   Thank you
>>Marketing department, very much.
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>>vaccinated child carries the polio. Think about that for a while. In
>>>fact, do some research on the problem.
Citizen Jimserac - 05 Jul 2009 23:25 GMT
On Jul 5, 4:29 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "CitizenJimserac" <jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Quite right. But you're only stating your opinion too. Just how valid do you
> think it is?

That is CORRECT!!  All I've got is my opinion.

> For everyone else: Do your own research. Listen to people who are qualified
> to give out advice. And don't believe everything you read on the internet.

> Somebody asked whether vaccinations were safe on an on-line board. Here's
> one response:
> "My son was the only child vaccinated against polio when he was attending a
> Rudolf Steiner school in Sweden in the late seventies - all the other
> children were vaccine free, and they all came down with polio.

> The risks and dangers of vaccines are microscopic compared to the risks and
> dangers of the diseases in question. Have you ever seen a child die of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But if you wish to sacrifice your children so as to reduce the
> overpopulation of the world, all power to you."

Would this be an argument based on FEAR?

Are you aware of schools where 98% of the students were VACCINATED and
yet an epidemic
of the supposedly protected against disease STILL occurred?
This is NOT a valid argument to NOT get vaccinated but it is the
contra example of your argument.
The argument based on FEAR does NOT work for either side.

> And if you have any pets, don't you make sure they are immunised
> appropriately? Vaccines have not just been proved effective in humans - they
> have also reduced the extent of several diseases in the animal kingdom.

Excuse me, on this one I would suggest you be really careful about
that word "immunised".

> I remember all the fuss in 1999 when so many people thought the world was
> going to end, either because they were expecting the return of Jesus, or
> because they thought all the computers would malfunction because they didn't
> understant what the Y2K bug was all about. Now those same people are kicking
> up a fuss because they're equally uninformed about the benefits (or
> otherwise) of vaccines.

I'll vote for otherwise!

> Still, look at it this way. Those people who are
> daft enough not to immunise their children

EXCUSE ME!  Vaccination is most certainly NOT immunization.
It may, in some, if the theory is correct, stimulate some immune
response - that is the basic theory of it, but the vaccination itself
is not the immunization.   In some the immune response does not happen
despite the vaccination.  In others the wrong immune response
happens.  In yet others an auto immune response happens in which the
body attacks itself as well as the diseases or attacks itself and
forgets about the disease.

Genetic material may be involved in the vaccine innoculation - I do
not believe the safety of this issue has been properly regarded.
Dangerous preservatives in trace amounts may be in the vaccines.  This
issue has begun to be realized and corrected, but not everywhere for
all vaccines.

Other consequences of the vaccine:
For some small number, for reasons as yet unknown, the patient gets
paralyzed or ill or "has a reaction" (called by the Homeopaths,
Vaccinosis, good word) or becomes subject to long term immune response
or auto-immune issues.
All of THAT needs to be taken into consideration before giving
vaccines to children.  It often is not.  A very small number of people
can and do DIE from the vaccine injection or soon thereafter or from
complications because of some pre-existing condition unrelated to the
vaccines.

RED FLAG WARNING:  Unlike pharmaceutical drugs, the Vaccine industry
has government protection against lawsuits.  Claims of vaccine damage
go through a quasi-governmental agency set up to handle such claims
and payments are made from a special fund set aside for this
purpose.    Why was this special protection to the industry needed if
vaccines are so safe and effective?

Citizen Jimserac
Bob Officer - 05 Jul 2009 23:58 GMT
>On Jul 5, 4:29 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
><stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>That is CORRECT!!  All I've got is my opinion.

Which is 100% un-quailified. you can't even understand what you have
read. What you read doesn't mean what you think it does. Sadly  the
american taxpayers wasted the money on whatever public education you
received.

>> For everyone else: Do your own research. Listen to people who are qualified
>> to give out advice. And don't believe everything you read on the internet.
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Stephen Wilson - 06 Jul 2009 00:09 GMT
>RED FLAG WARNING:  Unlike pharmaceutical drugs, the Vaccine industry
>has government protection against lawsuits.  Claims of vaccine damage
>go through a quasi-governmental agency set up to handle such claims
>and payments are made from a special fund set aside for this
>purpose.    Why was this special protection to the industry needed if
>vaccines are so safe and effective?

OK, well we can argue stats, semantics and conspiracy theories until the
cows come home. Let's bring this to a more personal level.

How many people do you know of, personally, who have died as a result of a
bad reaction to a vaccine? I don't know of any.

How many people do you know of, personally, who have suffered damage as the
result of a vaccine? I don't know of any.

How many people do you know of that caught a disease after being vaccinated
against it? I don't know of any. Personally, I was vaccinated against
rubella and whooping cough before I went to school. The mumps vaccine hadn't
been introduced at that point. I've never had rubella. I've never had
whooping cough. Yet guess what? I caught mumps when I was at school. It was
unpleasant, and kept me out of school and virtually bed-bound for over a
week. I got off lightly.

How many people do you know of that caught a disease that they were not
vaccinated against? I can list at least 2 in my own family. My aunt got
polio as a girl. Her back is twisted as a result. My sister caught whooping
cough before she could be vaccinated. It nearly killed her, and her lungs
were scarred as a result, leaving her slightly asthmatic.
Happy Oyster - 06 Jul 2009 00:56 GMT
>EXCUSE ME!  Vaccination is most certainly NOT immunization.

That is bullshit. And You DO know it!

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer reich ist, der herrscht, das ist keineswegs schlecht,
wer arm ist und borgt ist des Herrschenden Knecht."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Mark Probert - 06 Jul 2009 01:37 GMT
On Jul 5, 4:29 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> >It is OPINION.    NOTHING mathematically certain about it.   Thank you
> >Marketing department, very much.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> the next epidemic. So I suppose that's one way of re-introducing natural
> selection.

ASteve, the anti-vacs like to make that claim about the change in
polio definition in 1955 was for the purpose of playing with
statistics to allow the "vaccine lobby" to prove how good the vaccine
is.

The ONLY people who make this claim are the anti-vac liars. Whatever
changes made in the 1950's do not appear, to me, to support it.
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 20:39 GMT
I sent you an email.

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer reich ist, der herrscht, das ist keineswegs schlecht,
wer arm ist und borgt ist des Herrschenden Knecht."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Happy Oyster - 03 Jul 2009 17:05 GMT
>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>> >••••Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?

Sure. What else!?

Signature

            "Der Kölner Dom ist groß und gothisch,
              der Knochenkult ist religiotisch."

                   http://www.reimbibel.de

Stephen Wilson - 03 Jul 2009 17:37 GMT
On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>> >••••Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?

Even MDs can get it wrong. Try talking to relatives of the patients of Dr
Harold Shipman.

As for Mercola... Is he an MD? No. He's an osteopathic physician. That makes
him an OD, not and MD. He's a master promoter and uses every trick in the
book to help expand his own business. He sells "health-care" products and
services but in reality is only the modern equivalent of the snake oil
salesmen from a couple of hundred years ago.
t - 03 Jul 2009 21:40 GMT
> On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> products and services but in reality is only the modern equivalent of the
> snake oil salesmen from a couple of hundred years ago.
EVEN MD's? Oh freaking WOW!!!
No Body - 03 Jul 2009 23:09 GMT
> On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> modern equivalent of the snake oil salesmen from a couple of hundred
> years ago.

   A DO can be every bit as good or better than an MD. My PCP is a
DO. BUT! Even the idiots who graduate at the bottom of the class in
medical school get to be called "Doctor". And they always are.
   And then some people are just so smart that they're stupid. It's
not that they're stupid, it's just that they know so much that isn't
true....
Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 03:31 GMT
> On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> products and services but in reality is only the modern equivalent of the
> snake oil salesmen from a couple of hundred years ago.

Dr. Joseph Mercola MD DO
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 12:41 GMT
>Dr. Joseph Mercola MD DO

Mercola is one of his PR topics.

Signature

              " Ich glaub, ans große Weltgericht
             glaubt selbst manch Pfarrer heute nicht."

                    http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Officer - 05 Jul 2009 00:38 GMT
>> On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>>>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>Dr. Joseph Mercola MD DO

No he is only a DO, not an MD. n hint: no place on his web page or in
any other published work does he claim to be an MD.

OD != MD

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Citizen Jimserac - 05 Jul 2009 02:27 GMT
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:31:00 -0400, in misc.health.alternative, "Jan
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> OD != MD

Oh goodness help us!!!   Did you use the C language unequal operator (!
=) without realizing it?
Do we have another refugee from the world of software development
amongst us?
Oh but DARN IT, your words of wisdom will commit seppuku
(electronically speaking) in only 6 days?
A tragedy indeed, but on the other hand, judging from the content,
perhaps not such a bad idea after all.
You may be smarter than I originally thought.

Citizen Jimserac
Mark Probert - 05 Jul 2009 02:32 GMT
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:31:00 -0400, in misc.health.alternative, "Jan
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> OD != MD

Bob, in many states, and OD and MD are equal. Ignore the degrees, and
examine the individual. When you do that to Merc(ury)ola (he is quick
to take your silver) he comes up charlatan and huckster.
Bob Officer - 05 Jul 2009 17:37 GMT
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:31:00 -0400, in misc.health.alternative, "Jan
>>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>examine the individual. When you do that to Merc(ury)ola (he is quick
>to take your silver) he comes up charlatan and huckster.

The path to gain those degrees follow different paths. they are not
the same thing. some states may grant them equal recognition but I
point out the actions of some states WRT to some of the laws that
they have passed.

Didn't one state try to pass a law making Pi = 3

What about Kansas and evolution? State law  do not make something
factual. I know that's hard for some to take. government is not
infallible.

My PCP for years was an OD, good doctor with the sense to realize he
when was over his head and referred me to a specialist. He also had
the sense to play the real role of physician, a teacher 1st and
healer second. The goal he felt was to teach people how not to get
sick. BTW he advocated getting inoculations, very careful use of
antibiotics.

He considered 90% of OD were quacks, 99 % of chiropractors quacks.
and 100% of ministers were quacks.

Yeah, he was the also the person that spent the time when I was young
teaching 1st aid to boy and girl scouts. I have had to used what he
taught me a few times in the last 50 years. You see, I know CPR does
save lives. So do inoculations.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Mark Probert - 06 Jul 2009 01:33 GMT
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:32:23 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> point out the actions of some states WRT to some of the laws that
> they have passed.

Bad logic. There is a school of osteopathic medicine near my home. The
graduates all attend quality residency programs, and go into
specialties with full board certification. My kids ped had one of the
graduates join his practice before he passed away. A high school
friend of mine (the ped) whom I had absolute confidence in.

An orthopedist I know has an associate with a DO. The list is
endless.

These doctors are equal.

> Didn't one state try to pass a law making Pi = 3
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 06 Jul 2009 13:38 GMT
> > On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:32:23 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> These doctors are equal.

Mark Probert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU are hereby exhumed from my killfile for the very correct comment
about the DO's.

Restored to full response status.

Congratulations!

Citizen Jimserac
Mark Probert - 05 Jul 2009 02:08 GMT
On Jul 3, 12:37 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Jul 2, 2:40 am, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> services but in reality is only the modern equivalent of the snake oil
> salesmen from a couple of hundred years ago.

If you have the stomach, read Mercola's website. He uses contradictory
sales pitches depending on the product.
Bob Officer - 03 Jul 2009 22:22 GMT
>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>> >••••Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?

Actually Mercola isn't an MD. Technecally he is a DO. (doctor of
osteopathy).

The real end of the matter is 1.does he have practice rights in an
Certified medical facility or hospital, can he order medical tests or
prescribe any medications.

Mercola has been issued two different warning about promoting
products which would put them in the category of drugs and doesn't
offer proof of benefit or safety.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

t - 04 Jul 2009 14:29 GMT
>>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>>> >....Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> products which would put them in the category of drugs and doesn't
> offer proof of benefit or safety.

Warnings from those who support deadly unsafe "medicine"?
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 14:37 GMT
> Warnings from those who support deadly unsafe "medicine"?

Yes, that is the problem with the "medicine" committed by charlatans like
Mercola.

Signature

                  Homöopathisches Akutmittel bei Asthma

                 http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_akut.htm

Jan Drew - 05 Jul 2009 05:16 GMT
t" <tools@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b6dndWmmde_xNLXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

> "Bob Officer" <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote in message
> news:ijss45p2rva4ig64cnvtpku58soog6ncg8@4ax.com...
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>>
> Warnings from those who support deadly unsafe "medicine"?
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 13:44 GMT
Ran out of material Jan Drew pushes other users' postings:

>t" <tools@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4b6dndWmmde_xNLXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@giganews.com...
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>>>
>> Warnings from those who support deadly unsafe "medicine"?

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer liebt seinen Sohn, der prügelt ihn bald,
wer hasst seinen Sohn, der vermeidet Gewalt."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Officer - 05 Jul 2009 17:40 GMT
>Ran out of material Jan Drew pushes other users' postings:

she pushes a forgery, not my posting. fraud isn't it? does that make
Janbot an accomplice?

>>t" <tools@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:4b6dndWmmde_xNLXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@giganews.com...
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>>>>
>>> Warnings from those who support deadly unsafe "medicine"?

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Bob Officer - 05 Jul 2009 00:40 GMT
>>>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>>>> >....Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>>
> Warnings from those who support deadly unsafe "medicine"?

Actual real warning which should have resulted in criminal fraud
charges.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

t - 05 Jul 2009 01:08 GMT
Bobby, Blowdich, Happy Bottom Feeder, Mark, and the rest of the "Aunties.
Vaccines are not good for you. Invest your meager money in clean water
instead. Quit trying to harm people by pushing them to use drugs.
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 12:36 GMT
> Bobby, Blowdich, Happy Bottom Feeder, Mark, and the rest of the "Aunties.
>Vaccines are not good for you. Invest your meager money in clean water
>instead. Quit trying to harm people by pushing them to use drugs.

In TV from time to time the show clips in which the toilet is babbling.

Now, why did this posting remind me of that...?

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer liebt seinen Sohn, der prügelt ihn bald,
wer hasst seinen Sohn, der vermeidet Gewalt."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

t - 05 Jul 2009 01:09 GMT
Bobby, Blowdich, Happy Bottom Feeder, Mark, and the rest of the "Aunties.
Vaccines are not good for you. Invest your meager money in clean water
instead. Quit trying to harm people by pushing them to use drugs.
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 12:36 GMT
>Bobby, Blowdich, Happy Bottom Feeder, Mark, and the rest of the "Aunties.
>Vaccines are not good for you. Invest your meager money in clean water
>instead. Quit trying to harm people by pushing them to use drugs.

Without vaccination 2,5 percent of the children died of measles.

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer liebt seinen Sohn, der prügelt ihn bald,
wer hasst seinen Sohn, der vermeidet Gewalt."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Officer - 05 Jul 2009 18:33 GMT
>>Bobby, Blowdich, Happy Bottom Feeder, Mark, and the rest of the "Aunties.
>>Vaccines are not good for you. Invest your meager money in clean water
>>instead. Quit trying to harm people by pushing them to use drugs.
>
>Without vaccination 2,5 percent of the children died of measles.

Without vaccines, about 30-40% of the people alive today wouldn't be.

look at the mortality rates of 1890. project those figures forward,
20% of the people born between 1890-1910 would have never reach child
birthing age.

now reduce the population growth rate and start removing more people,

The increase mobility and travel since 1900 would have more vectors
and the communicable disease death rate would increase. deaths and
complications from smallpox tetanus, Mumps, measles rubella, Whooping
cough, and Flu would have increase the lowering of childhood
mortality.  The expectations today would be about 1/2 of the world
population would simple not be.

The anti-vaxers are leeches trying to live off the risk taking of
others (those that gain immunity for the herd, herd immunity), but
still dependent on the herds money for their increased health care if
the they do fall ill from a preventable disease.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

t - 05 Jul 2009 21:57 GMT
>>>Bobby, Blowdich, Happy Bottom Feeder, Mark, and the rest of the "Aunties.
>>>Vaccines are not good for you. Invest your meager money in clean water
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> still dependent on the herds money for their increased health care if
> the they do fall ill from a preventable disease.
Stephen Wilson - 05 Jul 2009 22:55 GMT
> Bobby, some people will not go to a hospital unless forced at gunpoint.
> But then some people understand that living things die. Some people might
> even face death with courage and not fear. Others scream and whine , take
> every drug that the "doctor" says will give them 5 min. more, spend every
> cent they have and then spend their children's money too, for the next
> drug. Fear is not a good way to live imho

I'm not particularly scared of death. My father only made it to the age of
31. I've already oultived him. Personally I think quality of life is far
more important than quantity.

Do I take every drug the doctors give me? No. I take the minimum - which
right now is nothing at all. Although I was prescribed drugs for a heart
condition, I chose not to take them. I decided the potential side effects
outweighed any possible benefits.

On the other hand, a million and one other people try to get me to take
whatever they're peddling. Religious people who want to convert me. Chinese
doctors and their herbs. Various people with their herbs, supplements,
homeopathy, acupuncture, etc. And I don't need any of it. Eat the right
food, do a little exercise and deal appropriately with stress. Simple.

But that doesn't mean that if I get ill, I won't go to doctors for advice.
And it doesn't mean I would ever suggest to other people that they refuse
medication, or turn down immunisations.
Bob Officer - 06 Jul 2009 00:17 GMT
>> Bobby, some people will not go to a hospital unless forced at gunpoint.
>> But then some people understand that living things die. Some people might
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Do I take every drug the doctors give me? No.

I do even better, I get the doctor to explain just exactly what the
drug is supposed to do and usually go over the contradictions and
side effects. I work in one of the Safety Mandated jobs which has a
sever restriction on drugs in my system, and Even how many hours a
day/week/month I can work or be at work.

I have had the MD change his selection of drug of choice/treatment
several times because of the side effects of some treatment plans. I
even have to carefully monitor simple over the counter allergy meds.

>I take the minimum - which
>right now is nothing at all. Although I was prescribed drugs for a heart
>condition, I chose not to take them. I decided the potential side effects
>outweighed any possible benefits.

About 5 years ago after a nasty OTJ exposure to lubricant fumes from
a malfunctioning device. I had went into an Shock. I was lucky I had
my Epipen, (even though it was for bee stings), I recognized the
symptoms of results of fumes. Before I left the hospitals, I was
initially prescribed one medication which only adverse effect was to
remove my ability to speak. After about a week the drug passed out of
my system and my voice returned. I did stop taking the drug as soon
as the indicated side effect manifested itself. would I take the drug
again? only if it was medically necessary and no other treatment
options were available.

>On the other hand, a million and one other people try to get me to take
>whatever they're peddling. Religious people who want to convert me. Chinese
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>And it doesn't mean I would ever suggest to other people that they refuse
>medication, or turn down immunisations.

Good advice. take only advise from people who are qualified to offer
advise, and then seek second opinion, or third.

Some people think the act of taking care of yourself is a sign of
fear. When the opposite is true.
sTools is afraid, he is written about his fears and his basis to
refuse to the most he can in the field of prevention. including
becoming inoculated. Worse he passed the fear and refusal and the
repercussions of the lack of immunization on to his own now
defenseless children.

He uses his own fears to rationalize the reckless endangerment and
neglect of his children.
Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Stephen Wilson - 06 Jul 2009 20:20 GMT
>>On the other hand, a million and one other people try to get me to take
>>whatever they're peddling. Religious people who want to convert me.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Good advice. take only advise from people who are qualified to offer
> advise, and then seek second opinion, or third.

Talking of snake oil remedies, here's a link to an amusing slideshow that
looks at some of the quacks and cures from history:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8129447.stm
Jan Drew - 08 Jul 2009 03:51 GMT
This thread is no long about the subject.

Now, back to the subject:

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
....Meningitis Paralysis
.Paralytis polio
.Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
..Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
.Demyelinization diseases
.Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
.Convulsions - Seizures
.....Mental confusion - lowered IQ
.Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.
Happy Oyster - 08 Jul 2009 09:50 GMT
Jan Drew pushes health claims by Mercola, who is prosecuted by the FDA.

>This thread is no long about the subject.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Vaccines and Neurological Damage

To believe the statements ported by Jan Drew can be deadly for your children and
for yourself.

Signature

Unter dem Bischofshut
gedeiht Unrecht doppelt gut.

Über Sodom + Gomorrha, über Papst + Dogmata: http://www.reimbibel.de

Mark Probert - 08 Jul 2009 13:53 GMT
> Jan Drew pushes health claims by Mercola, who is prosecuted by the FDA.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> To believe the statements ported by Jan Drew can be deadly for your children and
> for yourself.

I would correct that to read that the statements written by Mercola
can be bad for the health of you and your children.

Remember, Mercola will say anything to sell anything.
Jan Drew - 09 Jul 2009 04:12 GMT
This thread is not Dangerous to your health

This thread is no long about the subject.

Now, back to the subject:

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
....Meningitis Paralysis
.Paralytis polio
.Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
..Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
.Demyelinization diseases
.Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
.Convulsions - Seizures
.....Mental confusion - lowered IQ
.Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.
Mark Probert - 09 Jul 2009 14:08 GMT
> This thread is not Dangerous to your health
>
> This thread is no long about the subject.
>
> Now, back to the subject:

Toxic bullshit snipped.
Jan Drew - 10 Jul 2009 02:54 GMT
> This thread is no longer about the subject.
>
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.
Mark Probert - 10 Jul 2009 03:11 GMT
> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> >http://www.MERCURYola.com/art
Happy Oyster - 10 Jul 2009 07:31 GMT
>> This thread is no longer about the subject.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Aha, there we have it: another try of Jan Drew to push Mercola. One more PR
attack by Jan Drew. One more of so very many during the last years.

Now guess: Who is paying Jan Drew?

Signature

 "Den Armen, den hasst die Verwandtschaft meist sehr,
  den Reichen, den ehrt die Bekanntschaft viel mehr."
  (Sprüche Salomos: (Kap 3, 13, 14, 22))
----------------------------------------->>> http://www.reimbibel.de

pautrey2 - 18 Jul 2009 17:09 GMT
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

> > This thread is not Dangerous to your health
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Toxic bullshit snipped.

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
••••Meningitis Paralysis
•Paralytis polio
•Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
••Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
•Demyelinization diseases
•Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
•Convulsions - Seizures
•••••Mental confusion - lowered IQ
•Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
pautrey2 - 18 Jul 2009 17:11 GMT
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
>
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

On Jul 9, 8:08 am, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 8, 11:12 pm, "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > This thread is not Dangerous to your health

> > This thread is no long about the subject.

> > Now, back to the subject:

> Toxic bullshit snipped.

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
••••Meningitis Paralysis
•Paralytis polio
•Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
••Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
•Demyelinization diseases
•Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
•Convulsions - Seizures
•••••Mental confusion - lowered IQ
•Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by
any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from
overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-
one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is
a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said
the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-
MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose
families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism
began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the
laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in
medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech
development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of
the
brain might produce these same points too.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
Happy Oyster - 18 Jul 2009 21:53 GMT
>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Aha, one of those orchestrated "appearances": One guy of the naturopathic mafia
is in defense, so another one takes on with the war against scientific medicine.

It is the same, again and again, and can be seen all over in the net and in real
life.

"Paulus war ein kluger Schreiber,  'Wie erprobt schon bei den Ahnen,
dieses schrieb er über Weiber:      seien Weiber Untertanen.
(Epheser 5 (22-24), Titus 2 (5)     Müssen ihren Männern dienen,
http://www.reimbibel.de             untergeben sind sie ihnen.'"
Happy Oyster - 18 Jul 2009 22:21 GMT
>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Oh, again he shoots the nonsense into the net, this way distributing false
medical claims AND the URL of Mercola, one of America's meanest charlatans.

Now guess: who pays him?

Signature

"'Ihr sollt nicht auf die Störer hören,
der Herr vernichte, die verstören.'
Zur Toleranz neigt nicht der Christ,
denn er weiß, was die Wahrheit ist."   http://www.reimbibel.de

Happy Oyster - 09 Jul 2009 17:31 GMT
>This thread is not Dangerous to your health
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Again and again Jan Drew pushes the lies by Mercola into the net.

Here is a good overview. Mark looked deeper at the news groups which Jan Drew
spoils up. This is what he found:

<quote>

Email address:  jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net
Website or Blog:
Quote:
About me:
Average Rating: ONE STAR  (21054 ratings)

Recent Activity:
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Yappy Osyter proves he is a Troll     misc.health.alternative  2 hours
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ANCIENT SYMBOLS IN MODERN MEDICINE: BUT WHY?     alt.freemasonry  2
days ago

Mark S Probert     misc.kids.health  3 days ago

Mark S Probert and Off topic     alt.support.attn-deficit  3 days ago

Vaccines and Neurological Damage     alt.support.autism  4 days ago

More Proof Mark S Probert does NOT read Torah everyday
alt.support.breast-implant  5 days ago

Mark S Probert the proven Liar     sci.med.dentistry  5 days ago

New age quack Deepak Choprah exploits mj's death on CNN
soc.culture.usa  5 days ago

MMR Causes Autism - Another Win In US Federal Court
misc.kids.breastfeeding  Jun 19

Formaldehyde Linked to Cancer Death     sci.med.diseases.cancer  Jun
19
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Four threads with my name in the subject line.

Absolute, incontrovertible proof of net stalking and abusing.
</quote>

Who pays Jan Drew?
******************

Signature

"Ich glaub, der Teufel fuhr in Judas, *  Was Judas damals hat getan
und Jesus sprach zu Judas "Tu das!"   *  war Teil von einem Gottesplan."

Über Plan C: http://www.reimbibel.de

pautrey2 - 26 Jul 2009 22:27 GMT
> This thread is not Dangerous to your health
>
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.
Happy Oyster - 26 Jul 2009 22:51 GMT
>> This thread is not Dangerous to your health
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Ah, yes, again advertising for the charlatan Mercola...

Signature

**** WARNING **** The web-hoster Globat.com steals money from your
credit card account. If you are a customer of Globat.com, never give
them any credit card information. If you can't erase the information,
then do delete the old card and get a new one!      **** WARNING ****

Stephen Wilson - 08 Jul 2009 18:29 GMT
> This thread is no long about the subject.
>
> Now, back to the subject:

<snip>

Nice cut and paste job. Did you actually understand any of it?

This thread has also gone on more than long enough. It would be quite funny
if it wasn't so sad.
Jan Drew - 09 Jul 2009 04:00 GMT
>> This thread is no long about the subject.
>>
>> Now, back to the subject:
>
> <snip>

Restore:

> This thread is no long about the subject.
>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
>
> Nice cut and paste job. Did you actually understand any of it?

Yes.

> This thread has also gone on more than long enough. It would be quite
> funny if it wasn't so sad.

Yes, it is very sad that vaccines cause  Neurological Damage.
Bob Officer - 09 Jul 2009 04:34 GMT
>>> This thread is no long about the subject.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
>
>Yes.

It doesn't appear you understand much of anything. You barely seem to
be able to read.

It does appear you are unable to discuss the subject using your own
words.

>> This thread has also gone on more than long enough. It would be quite
>> funny if it wasn't so sad.
>>
>Yes, it is very sad that vaccines cause  Neurological Damage.

Actually there is zero proof, Janbot. You do realize Wakefield fraud
has been exposed.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Happy Oyster - 09 Jul 2009 17:31 GMT
>Yes, it is very sad that vaccines cause  Neurological Damage.

So it is better to take the 1-mllion-fold higher risk of death by NOT
VACCINATING?

Only an idiot would do that.

Signature

"Ich glaub, der Teufel fuhr in Judas, *  Was Judas damals hat getan
und Jesus sprach zu Judas "Tu das!"   *  war Teil von einem Gottesplan."

Über Plan C: http://www.reimbibel.de

Jan Drew - 09 Jul 2009 04:12 GMT
> This thread is no long about the subject.
>
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.
Happy Oyster - 09 Jul 2009 17:31 GMT
>> This thread is no long about the subject.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> Vaccines and Neurological Damage

And ONE shot into the net is not enough for him. Recently Jan Drew began to
double: he repeats his postings.

Mark looked deeper at the news groups which Jan Drew spoils up. This is what he
found:

<quote>

Email address:  jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net
Website or Blog:
Quote:
About me:
Average Rating: ONE STAR  (21054 ratings)

Recent Activity:
  Activity in  All 214 Groups -- 38600 messages
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Yappy Osyter proves he is a Troll     misc.health.alternative  2 hours
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ANCIENT SYMBOLS IN MODERN MEDICINE: BUT WHY?     alt.freemasonry  2
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Mark S Probert     misc.kids.health  3 days ago

Mark S Probert and Off topic     alt.support.attn-deficit  3 days ago

Vaccines and Neurological Damage     alt.support.autism  4 days ago

More Proof Mark S Probert does NOT read Torah everyday
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MMR Causes Autism - Another Win In US Federal Court
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19
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Four threads with my name in the subject line.

Absolute, incontrovertible proof of net stalking and abusing.
</quote>

Who pays Jan Drew?

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und Jesus sprach zu Judas "Tu das!"   *  war Teil von einem Gottesplan."

Über Plan C: http://www.reimbibel.de

infopsycho - 09 Jul 2009 19:03 GMT
It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,
while the pro-vaccines are agenda driven.

Consensus is not good science
Mark Probert - 09 Jul 2009 19:32 GMT
> It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,
> while the pro-vaccines are agenda driven.
>
> Consensus is not good science

Correction:

The anti-vaccines are avoiding the truth.
Bob Badour - 09 Jul 2009 20:18 GMT
> It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,
> while the pro-vaccines are agenda driven.
>
> Consensus is not good science

If that's how you perceive the world, your moniker is well chosen.
Stephen Wilson - 09 Jul 2009 22:00 GMT
> It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,
> while the pro-vaccines are agenda driven.
>
> Consensus is not good science

Agenda driven? As for concensus, well I'd love to know where the good
science can be found in the "evidence" against vaccines.

Mumps is a potentially fatal disease. Fact. Rubella is a potentially fatal
disease. Fact. Measles is a potentially fatal disease. Fact. The MMR
protects people from these diseases. This cannot be disputed. Some people
have tried, and failed, to link vaccines to autism. Some people have tried
to link them to other neurological damage.

It is true that side effects may be experienced in a very small minority of
people. But let's put things into perspective here. How many people are
killed every day by cars? Hundreds. So shouldn't you ban cars? What about
alcohol? Pesticides may cause cancer. Ban them too. Too many vitamins can
cause damage. Red meat has been linked to cancer. Sunlight causes skin
cancer. Too much food causes obesity. Guns kill. So can dogs. People with
knives kill. People with glass bottles kill. So many things we need to ban!

The anti-vaccines will never be happy. If they had their way and all
vaccines were banned, the diseases they protect against would kill again.
Then who would be happy?

And who are you going to believe? Are all health professionals part of one
great conspiracy? Do doctors really want to see their patients sick and
dying? Do governments really want a brain damaged population in need of
constant care? Is every employee working for a drugs company only in it for
the money?

Read the Cochrane Review. This was published by an international team of
researchers who looked at the evidence from 31 high quality studies. What do
you think their agenda was? Here's a summary of their findings:

1. There is no credible link between the MMR vaccine and any long-term
disability, including Crohn's disease and autism.

2. MMR is an important vaccine that has prevented diseases that still carry
a heavy burden of death and complications where the vaccine is not used
consistently.

3. The lack of confidence in MMR has caused great damage to public health.

4. People arguing for or against the use of any therapy need to make sure
that they base their conclusions on carefully collected evidence, not just
on biased opinion, speculation or suspicion.
Happy Oyster - 10 Jul 2009 01:01 GMT
>It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,

There already is false wording...

Signature

"Ich glaub, der Teufel fuhr in Judas, *  Was Judas damals hat getan
und Jesus sprach zu Judas "Tu das!"   *  war Teil von einem Gottesplan."

Über Plan C: http://www.reimbibel.de

No Body - 10 Jul 2009 21:51 GMT
> It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,
> while the pro-vaccines are agenda driven.
>
> Consensus is not good science

neither is your loonie head-in-the-sand drivel.
Mark Probert - 11 Jul 2009 01:22 GMT
> > It seems the anti-vaccines are searching for truth,
> > while the pro-vaccines are agenda driven.
>
> > Consensus is not good science
>
> neither is your loonie head-in-the-sand drivel.

Sand? Nah. His head-place follows him wherever he goes.
t - 06 Jul 2009 13:44 GMT
>> Bobby, some people will not go to a hospital unless forced at gunpoint.
>> But then some people understand that living things die. Some people might
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't start with
> the "this is Usenet" crap.
Stephen Wilson - 06 Jul 2009 16:55 GMT
>>> Bobby, some people will not go to a hospital unless forced at gunpoint.
>>> But then some people understand that living things die. Some people
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>> Thank you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't
>> start with the "this is Usenet" crap.

You did say Bobby. However, this is a public forum. If you only want a
response from Bobby, you should e-mail him in private.
Bob Officer - 07 Jul 2009 02:46 GMT
>>>> Bobby, some people will not go to a hospital unless forced at gunpoint.
>>>> But then some people understand that living things die. Some people
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>You did say Bobby. However, this is a public forum. If you only want a
>response from Bobby, you should e-mail him in private.

E-mail is not a requirement for full participation in usenet. Indeed,
I ran a system for 2 years we provided access to usenet to users but
not internet access. USNET can and does operate separate from the
internet.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

t - 07 Jul 2009 03:04 GMT
>>> Thank you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't
>>> start with the "this is Usenet" crap.
>
> You did say Bobby. However, this is a public forum. If you only want a
> response from Bobby, you should e-mail him in private.

I should have placed a bet that you would respond as you did. Needing some
attention are you?
Bob Officer - 07 Jul 2009 06:16 GMT
>>>> Thank you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't
>>>> start with the "this is Usenet" crap.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I should have placed a bet that you would respond as you did. Needing some
>attention are you?

Just who are you citing, sTools?

You need to learn how to properly work you newsreader or you'll
continue to look like a simpleton.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

t - 07 Jul 2009 14:21 GMT
>>>>> Thank you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't
>>>>> start with the "this is Usenet" crap.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> You need to learn how to properly work you newsreader or you'll
> continue to look like a simpleton.

You need to kiss my a.s.
Mark Probert - 07 Jul 2009 15:39 GMT
> >>>>> Thank you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't
> >>>>> start with the "this is Usenet" crap.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>  You need to kiss my a.s.-

There are no lips in the entire world large enough....
Happy Oyster - 07 Jul 2009 18:32 GMT
> You need to kiss my a.s.

A strange breed these stalker are...

Signature

Unter dem Bischofshut
gedeiht Unrecht doppelt gut.

Über Sodom + Gomorrha, über Papst + Dogmata: http://www.reimbibel.de

Stephen Wilson - 07 Jul 2009 17:15 GMT
>>>> Thank you for your comments, but I did say "Bobby". And please don't
>>>> start with the "this is Usenet" crap.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I should have placed a bet that you would respond as you did. Needing some
> attention are you?

As I said, this is a public forum. You participate. I participate.
Responding to posts is what people do here. This thread was not for your
benefit only.

I'm not sure what your problem is. But it's no longer my problem. Killfiles
are handy things!
Peter Bowditch - 04 Jul 2009 00:52 GMT
>> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
>> >••••Meningitis Paralysis
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>"debunking" without ever having read, by your own admission, more than
>ONE SINGLE BOOK on the subject.

Please show me where I said that. As I can see at least two books
about homeopathy from where I am sitting right now and I know there
are more in the next room, I must have read more than one. Why would I
say otherwise. (I still haven't completely organised my library since
I moved house, which is why I can't just get them all off the shelf
and stack them on the desk.)

>And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?

Actually, he's a DO, and, yes, I call him a liar because he
demonstrates his liarness with almost everything he writes.

>I'm intrigued old dude, quite intrigued, by this rather anti-
>scientific Bowditichian outburst.
>
>Are you aware, old dude, that the definition of polio was changed, at
>the height of the vaccination "crusade" in the 1950's, in order to
>make the statistics appear more favorable ?

Was it? From what to what?

>Are you aware of the very primitive nature of the vaccination
>procedure itself, the INJECTION OF DISABLED VIRUSES into the
>BLOODSTREAM?

Are you aware that no vaccine of any kind is injected into the
bloodstream? Are you aware that the oral polio vaccine is swallowed?
Are you also aware that the oral polio vaccine does not contain
disabled viruses? Are you aware that there are no viruses in vaccines
which act against bacterial diseases?

>Do you suppose some fragmentary GENETIC material, from the egg yolks,
>monkey brains or wherever the hell they manufacture this stuff could
>possibly be transmitted along with the "disabled" virus?

Do you suppose that some of the acid used in the manufacture of motor
vehicles could possibly be transmitted to the driver's arse along with
the lubrication oil used in assembly robots? Do you suppose that you
could ever get a clue?

>And you are...... (Citizen Jimserac slaps forehead in astonishment)
>and ADVOCATE of this sort of thing?

If it were even partly true then of course I would not ADVOCATE it,
but as it is a fabrication my approval is moot.

>Citizen Jimserac

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Citizen Jimserac - 04 Jul 2009 01:56 GMT
> CitizenJimserac<jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I moved house, which is why I can't just get them all off the shelf
> and stack them on the desk.)

Thank goodness!!!!!   Blessings on Bowditch, he actually has read a
wee bit about it!!!
You have re-established my faith in your hypocrisy and pretensions!!

> >And NOW, you wish to call Dr. Mercola, an MD, a liar?
>
> Actually, he's a DO,
Ah! Well then, STILL A DR.,

> and, yes, I call him a liar because he
> demonstrates his liarness with almost everything he writes.

SHOCKING and SWEEPING allegations from the great debunker of the
southern hemisphere!!

> >I'm intrigued old dude, quite intrigued, by this rather anti-
> >scientific Bowditichian outburst.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Was it? From what to what?

From one thing to many things - hence the "polio" incidence decline
statistics during the vaccine use era -  would you like some links old
dude?

> >Are you aware of the very primitive nature of the vaccination
> >procedure itself, the INJECTION OF DISABLED VIRUSES into the
> >BLOODSTREAM?
>
> Are you aware that no vaccine of any kind is injected into the
> bloodstream?

Really!!??  NO!!!!

> Are you aware that the oral polio vaccine is swallowed?

Apparently the takers of the vaccines swallow a great deal of
misinformation too!

> Are you also aware that the oral polio vaccine does not contain
> disabled viruses?
Enabled ones then!!   Or little fragments that play music?   Did YOU
know that viruses are composed of (surprise!!!!)
genetic material?

> Are you aware that there are no viruses in vaccines
> which act against bacterial diseases?

Are YOU aware that there are these really handy dandy bacteriophages
which are viruses that specialize in attacking bacteria, that the
technology was available in the U.S. in the 1940's, but that somehow,
with the mad rush to develop stronger and stronger antibiotics, it is
no longer permitted here
(perhaps in your topsy turvy region it is allowed, sometimes upside
down can be right side up!)
(the quality of MRSA is not strained).

> >Do you suppose some fragmentary GENETIC material, from the egg yolks,
> >monkey brains or wherever the hell they manufacture this stuff could
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> vehicles could possibly be transmitted to the driver's arse along with
> the lubrication oil used in assembly robots?

Oh!!  Is there a vaccination to prevent THAT too!??

?Do you suppose that you
> could ever get a clue?'
Never ever ever!!!!  That would take away all the fun.

> >And you are...... (Citizen Jimserac slaps forehead in astonishment)
> >an ADVOCATE of this sort of thing?
>
> If it were even partly true then of course I would not ADVOCATE it,
> but as it is a fabrication my approval is moot.

That's what I like about Bowditch's comments - one is always sure
exactly where he stands!

Cit J.
No Body - 02 Jul 2009 15:55 GMT
Being a recent return to this group, I'm wondering, do you always post
reams of idiotic bullshit or do you sometimes actually contribute factual
information of a useful nature?

> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.
Jan Drew - 03 Jul 2009 03:11 GMT
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Vaccines and Neurological Damage

Vaccinations are very neurotoxic and have been associated with many
neurological disorders, like encephalopathies, epilepsy, convulsions,
ADD, LD, autism, mental retardation, depression, anxiety, CNS
disorders, paralysis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, nerve deafness,
blindness and SIDS. The neurological disorders associated with
vaccinations are diverse and numerous. Vaccinations lower IQ as well
as contribute to the overt mental disorders and neurological diseases
listed here. The relationship of vaccinations to encephalopathies and
neurological diseases have been surfacing in medical journals since
the advent of mass vaccination programs. Autism was unheard of before
vaccinations, and parallel mass vaccination programs very nicely. ADD
and learning disorders in children are now being traced to childhood
vaccinations, as well as convulsions, paralysis, and epilepsy. Brain
damage is by far the most common adverse reaction associated with
vaccinations, although their actual numbers are not often reported
correctly.

List of Vaccination-induced Neurological disorders:
••••Meningitis Paralysis
•Paralytis polio
•Ms Gullain Barre Syndrome
••Hyperactivity - ADD, LD
•Demyelinization diseases
•Auto-immune Diseases Epilepsy
•Convulsions - Seizures
•••••Mental confusion - lowered IQ
•Brain tumors (SV-40)
This list was generated from a variety of resources and is not, by any
means, all inclusive.

The encephalopathies associated with vaccinations may range from overt
neurological disease to high pitched crying (commonly seen after
vaccination), which is not often recognized as brain damage. In other
words, the child is just "reacting to the needle". It is "normal" to
be afraid of shots. But what they are missing is the diagnosis of
overt neuropathy, encephalitis or brain dysfunction, because high
pitched crying is not normal. Brain damage from vaccines is epidemic
and yet, doctors are slow to diagnose neurological disorders (in US)
when vaccinations are at stake but we see many citations linking
changes (for the worse) after vaccinations are given.

Ted Koren, DC stated, "Dyslexia, minimal brain damage, ADD, autism,
allergies, visual and many other neurologic diseases grouped together
as "developmental disabilities," barely existed before mass
vaccination programs. Probably twenty percent of American children-one
youngster in five-suffers from a 'developmental disability.' This is a
stupefying figure Developmental disabilities" are nearly always
generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in
the United States and other industrialized countries is the childhood
vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the
millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures,
mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other developmental
disabilities, owe their disorders to one or another of the vaccines
against childhood diseases." [Emphasis mine.]

Some 40-50 years ago children were not vaccinated until they were
ready for the first grade at age 6. Neurological disorders were very
uncommon then. Today, children are vaccinated at birth for HiB and
begin their long vaccination-journey at 2 months of age, before the
blood brain barrier is fully developed. A review of the medical
literature around the world will turn up many articles linking
vaccinations with many neurological disorders. Before the 1940s,
autism was extremely rare or unheard of. Then in the mid-1940s we
began a massive vaccination programs and autism was "born". At first,
it only occurred in the children of wealthy parents, since
vaccinations were not free or government sponsored like today. Later
autism became a disease of all classes (with government-sponsored
vaccine programs). The psychiatrists had a hay-day with autism and at
first they called it the "Refrigerator-Mother Syndrome". They said the
mother had a "cold" heart causing the child to be autistic and
withdrawn. Yet, studies did not support this theory, since many
families had only one autistic child among several normal children.
The point they missed was that it was the Doctor's cold needles that
caused the problem, not the mother's cold heart.

"The strongest link was between measles virus antibodies and anti-MBP,
suggesting that exposure to the measles virus may cause the immune
systems of children with autism to attack myelin," Singh said.
Children with autism produce anti-bodies against their own brain,
making autism an auto-immune condition. "Singh compiled a
nonscientific, anecdotal survey of 88 autistic children whose families
have contacted him. Of those, 51 percent said symptoms of autism began
shortly after the MMR vaccination, and 36 percent said the problems
started days after the DPT shot." Anecdotal evidence over-whelmingly
points to vaccines as causing autism. The connect between autism and
vaccinations can not be denied.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory
to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child
develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell
us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to
increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic
diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to
protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer
coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged,
neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result.
(Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The
nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

The encephalitis form vaccinations is much more prevalent than we
would like to realize, since all vaccines are neurotoxic to begin
with. That one child develops encephalopathies from a vaccine and
another remains "normal" is not the issue. All children are affected,
but some are affected more than others. For example, if a child
develops uncontrolled high pitched crying after a vaccine is given,
that is written off as a normal reaction and is even listed in medical
texts as such. But if that same child has a slower speech development,
slower learning (which is so common today), or slower ability in
walking, who would know. Unvaccinated children walk sooner, talk
sooner, and have a high degree of manual dexterity at an earlier age.
Their minds are not assaulted by the neurotoxins that most "normal"
children receive. Vaccinations cause the brain to swell and that is
"encephalitis", regardless of diagnosis. During the period after
vaccines are given children often lose their soft spot in their
cranium, as the swelling increases. Why would one's brain swell after
vaccines were given? The four points of infection are pain (dolor),
redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
brain might produce these same points too.
Mark Probert - 03 Jul 2009 03:15 GMT
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Dr. MercuryOla.

The only one who Barret ever sued that had to pay him.
Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 03:40 GMT
Barrett, sue happy is not the subject.
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 12:41 GMT
> Barrett, sue happy is not the subject.

If Jan Drew dislikes postings, he tries to use pressure concerning irrelavant
things.

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             glaubt selbst manch Pfarrer heute nicht."

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Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 19:30 GMT
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 21:25 GMT
Anti-vaxxers are a threat to the life of children.

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Happy Oyster - 03 Jul 2009 06:09 GMT
>http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm

Mercola is a charlatan and the FTC is at him...

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              der Knochenkult ist religiotisch."

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Mark Probert - 05 Jul 2009 02:00 GMT
> >http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
> Mercola is a charlatan and the FTC is at him...

There is nothing on the FTC website about him. Do not stoop to their
level of mis-information.
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 12:47 GMT
>> >http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>>
>> Mercola is a charlatan and the FTC is at him...
>
>There is nothing on the FTC website about him. Do not stoop to their
>level of mis-information.

Sorry, mixed them up. It is the FDA.

[*QUOTE*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your Guide to Health Fraud- and Quackery-Related Legal Matters
Department of Health and Human Services
Public Health Service
Food and Drug Administration
5100 Paint Branch Pkwy
College Park, MD
20740-3835
February 16, 2005

WARNING LETTER
VIA CERTIFIED MAIL, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED

Joseph Mercola
Optimal Wellness Center
1443 W. Schaumburg, Ste 250
Schaumburg, IL 60194
Ref. No. CL-04-HFS-810-134

Dear Dr Mercola:
This is to advise you that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has reviewed
your web site at the Internet address
http://www.mercola.com and has determined that the products Living Fuel
Rx&trade;, Tropical Traditions Virgin Coconut Oil, and Chlorella are promoted
for conditions that cause these products to be drugs under section 201(g)(1) of
the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act) [21 USC 321(g)(1)]. The
therapeutic claims on your web site establish that these products are drugs
because they are intended for use in the cure, mitigation, treatment, or
prevention of diseases. The marketing of these products with these claims
violates the Act.

Examples of some of the claims observed on your web site include:
Living Fuel Rx&trade;

"In today's society people are simply not meeting their nutritional needs. We
see evidence of this with the rampant illnesses including cancer, cardiovascular
disease, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, etc. Living Fuel Rx is an exceptional
countermeasure to this lifestyle, meeting all of your nutritional needs."

Tropical Traditions Virgin Coconut Oil

"Reduce the risk of heart disease" "Lower your cholesterol" "Improve conditions
in those with diabetes and chronic fatigue"

"Improve Crohn's, IBS [Irritable Bowel Syndrome], and other digestive disorders"
"Prevent other disease and routine illness with its powerful antibacterial,
antiviral and antifungal agents" "A Delicious Way to Prevent Disease &hellip;"

"[V]irgin coconut oil is rich in lauric acid, a proven antiviral, antibacterial
and antifungal agent that is very beneficial in attacking viruses, bacteria, and
other pathogens &hellip;." "Coconut oil also raises metabolic rate &hellip;. A
faster metabolic rate stimulates increased production of needed insulin and
increases absorption of glucose into cells, thus helping both Type I and Type II
diabetics."
"For those with Crohn's and IBS, the anti-inflammatory and healing effects of
coconut oil have been shown to play a role in soothing inflammation and healing
injury in the digestive tract." "The fatty acids in coconut oil can kill herpes
and Epstein Barr viruses &hellip;. They kill Candida and giardia. They kill a
variety of other infectious organisms, any of which could cause chronic
fatigue."

Chlorella

"Normalize your blood sugar and blood pressure" "Fight cancer" "One of the ways
to fight cancer is the use of agents to stimulate macrophage production and
activity. Interferon is a natural secretion of the body that is thought to be a
stimulator of macrophages and tumor necrosis factor (TNF). Chlorella stimulates
the activity of T-cells and macrophages by increasing interferon levels thus
enhancing the immune system's ability to combat foreign invaders whether they
are bacteria, viruses, chemicals, or foreign proteins."

Your products are not generally recognized as safe and effective for the above
referenced conditions and therefore, these products are also "new drugs" under
section 201(p) of the Act [21 USC 321(p)]. New drugs may not be legally marketed
in the US without prior approval from FDA as described in section 505(a) of the
Act [21 USC 355(a)]. FDA approves new drugs on the basis of scientific data
submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate that the drugs are safe and
effective.

FDA is aware that Internet distributors may not know that the products they
offer are regulated as drugs or that these drugs are not in compliance with the
law. Many of these products may be legally marketed as dietary supplements if
claims about diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention are removed
from the promotional materials and the products otherwise comply with all
applicable provisions of the Act and FDA regulations. With regard to your Living
Fuel Rx&trade; product, which your website describes as an "optimized superfood
meal replacement," please note that products represented for use as a meal
replacement do not meet the definition of a dietary supplement in section
201(ff) of the Act [21 USC 321(ff)] and may not be marketed as such.

Under the Act, as amended by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act,
dietary supplements may be legally marketed with truthful and non-misleading
claims to affect the structure or function of the body (structure/function
claims), if certain requirements are met. However, claims that dietary
supplements are intended to prevent, diagnose, mitigate, treat, or cure disease
(disease claims), excepting health claims authorized for use by FDA, cause the
products to be drugs. The intended use of a product may be established through
product labels and labeling, catalogs, brochures, audio and videotapes, Internet
sites, or other circumstances surrounding the distribution of the product. FDA
has published a final rule intended to clarify the distinction between
structure/function claims and disease claims. This document is available on the
Internet at
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/fr000106.html (codified at 21 CFR 101.93(g)).

In addition, only products that are intended for ingestion may be lawfully
marketed as dietary supplements. Topical products and products intended to enter
the body directly through the skin or mucosal tissues, such as transdermal or
sublingual products, are not dietary supplements. For these products, both
disease and structure/function claims may cause them to be new drugs.

Certain over-the-counter drugs are not new drugs and may be legally marketed
without prior approval from FDA. Additional information is available in Title 21
of the Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR) Parts 310 and 330-358, which contain
FDA's regulations on over-the-counter drugs.

This letter is not intended to be an all-inclusive review of your web site and
products your firm markets. It is your responsibility to ensure that all
products marketed by your firm comply with the Act and its implementing
regulations.

If you need additional information or have questions concerning any products
distributed through your web site, please contact FDA.

You may reach FDA electronically (e-mail) at Kenneth.Taylor@CFSAN.FDA.GOV, or
you may respond in writing to Kenneth M. P. Taylor, PhD, Chemist, Food and Drug
Administration, Division of Dietary Supplement Programs, 5100 Paint Branch Pkwy,
College Park, MD 20740-3835. If you have any questions concerning this letter,
please contact Dr Taylor at 301-436-1439.

Sincerely,
/s/
Susan J. Walker, MD

Director,
Division of Dietary Supplement Programs
Office of Nutritional Products, Labeling and Dietary Supplements
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
This page was revised on October 5, 2005.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*/QUOTE*]

Source:
http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2005/mercola.shtml

[*QUOTE*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your Guide to Health Fraud- and Quackery-Related Legal Matters
Department of Health and Human Services
Public Health Service

Food and Drug Administration
Chicago District
550 West Jackson Blvd., 15th Floor
Chicago, IL 60661
Telephone: 312-353-5863
September 21, 2006

WARNING LETTER
CHI-7-06

CERTIFIED MAIL
RETURN RECEIPT REOUESTED

Joseph M. Mercola, D.O.
Optimal Wellness Center
1443 West Schaumburg Road, Suite 250
Schaumburg, IL 60194

Dear Dr. Mercola:
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) conducted an inspection at your facility
at the above address on April 24, 2006. During that inspection, the investigator
collected various product labels including, but not limited to, the following
products: Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, Fresh Shores Extra Virgin
Coconut Oil, Momentum Health Products&trade; Vitamin K2&trade;, and Momentum
Health Products&trade; Cardio Essentials&trade; Nattokinase NSK-SD. In addition,
we reviewed labeling on your website at http://www.mercola.com. A review of this
labeling found that the products listed above are promoted for conditions that
cause these products to be drugs under section 201(g)(1)(B) of the Federal Food,
Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act) [21 U.S.C.321 (g)(1)(13)].

These claims on your labeling, including your website, establish that these
products are drugs because they are intended for use in the cure, mitigation,
treatment, or prevention of disease. The marketing of these products with these
claims violates the Act. You can find the Act and FDA's regulations through
links on FDA's Internet home page, http://www.fda.gov.

Examples of disease claims observed in your products' labeling, including your
website and product labels, include:

Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP

"In Japan, interest in chlorella has focused largely on . . . its ability to
neutralize or remove poisonous substances from the body."

"Eliminating processed foods with whole foods like chlorella will help to
virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."

Further, the main Chlorella XP page of your website
(http://www.mercola.com/forms/chlorella.htm)
links to a page captioned "Chlorella Scientific Research" where several
publications reporting on human and animal studies of chlorella products are
cited.

Under each citation is an abstract of the publication. Many of the publications
cited and summarized on this page concern therapeutic uses of chlorella.

When scientific publications are used commercially by the seller of a product to
promote the product to consumers, such publications may become evidence of the
product's intended use. For example, under 21 CFR 101.93(g)(2)(iv)(C), a
citation of a publication or reference in the labeling of a product is
considered a claim about disease treatment or prevention if the citation refers
to a disease use, and if, in the context of the labeling as a whole, the
citation implies that the product is useful for treatment br prevention of a
disease.

The following are examples of reference citations on your website that are used
to promote Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP for treatment or prevention of
various diseases:

"Nutritional supplementation with Chlorella pyrenoidosa for patients with
fibromyalgia syndrome: a pilot study." Merchant RE; Carmack, CA; Wise CM.
Phytother Res 2000 May; 14(3):167-73. The abstract of the study on your website
states, in part: "Any amelioration of symptoms was validated and quantified . .
. at clinic visits on days 0, 30 and 60 of the diet therapy. . . . After two
months the average pain decrease was 22%."

"Effect of dried, powdered Chlorella vulgaris on experimental atherosclerosis
and alimentary hypercholesterolemia in cholesterol-fed rabbits." Sano T; Tanaka
Y. Artery 1987;14(2) :76-84.

"Effect of hot water extract of Chlorella vulgaris on cytokine expression
patterns in mice with murine acquired immunodeficiency syndrome after infection
with Listeria monocytogenes." Hasegawa T, Kimura Y, Hiromatsu, K, et al.
Immunopharmacology.
1997 Jan;35(3):273-82.

"Augmentation of antitumor resistance by a strain of unicellular green algae,
Chlorella vulgaris." Tanaka K; Konishi F; Himeno K, et al. Cancer Immunol
Immunother 1984;17(2):90-4.

"Oral administration of Chlorella vulgaris augments concomitant antitumor
immunity." Tanaka K; Tomita Y; Tsuruta M, et al.
Immunopharmacol Immunotoxicol 1990;12(2):277-91.

"Oral administration of a unicellular green algae, Chlorella vulgaris, prevents
stress-induced ulcer."

Tanaka K, Yamada A, Noda K, et al. Planta Med 1997 Oct;63(5):465-6.

Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil

"Coconut oil is . . . uniquely rich in lauric acid, which is converted to the
same disease-fighting substance--monolaurin--that nursing babies derive from
lauric acid in mother's milk. Research has demonstrated coconut oil's
anti-microbial, anti-viral and anti-parasitical properties ...."

"Pure Virgin Coconut Oil: The Healthy Fat That ... Banishes Infection, And Heads
Off Heart Disease"

"The numerous health benefits of coconut oil are finally again reaching the
mainstream. Benefits like:
Reducing your risk of heart disease ...
Reducing your risk of cancer and degenerative diseases ...
Preventing infections due to harmful bacteria, viruses, yeasts and other
microorganisms ..."

"[H]elps you prevent heart disease, lower cholesterol...."

"[L]auric acid is the predominant type of MCFA [medium-chain fatty acid] found
in coconut oil . ... [A] great volume of research has been done establishing the
ability of lauric acid to fight dangerous micro-organisms ... like viruses,
bacteria, yeasts, fungi, parasites and molds .... Numerous studies have
indicated that many viruses are inactivated by medium-chain fats-viruses like
influenza, measles, HIV, herpes and cytomegalovirus."

Momentum Health Product&trade; Vitamin K2&trade;

"Recent research supporting vitamin K's usefulness against osteoporosis and
heart disease is now becoming too abundant to overlook . ... I now offer the
most potent disease fighting form of this vitamin available-Vitamin K2-in
supplemental form."

"[S]cientists are even looking at vitamin K to be the future of treating certain
kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease."

"Research shows that vitamin K regulates calcium and keeps it in the bones and
out of arteries-stopping heart attacks and osteoporosis at the same time."

"Health Advantages of Vitamin K2
...[P]revents Osteoporosis
...

"Prevention of atherosclerosis
"Inhibits cancer cell growth"

Momentum Health Products&trade; Cardio Essentials&trade; Nattokinase NSK-SD

"CardioEssentials is a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other
pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."
"With the discovery of nattokinase, we no have a safe, scientifically-proven and
natural way for millions to combat hardened arteries, heart attack, stroke,
angina, dementia and senility."

"While modern medicine has come up with several clot-busting drugs--they come at
a very high price.
Among them, tissue plasminogen activactors [sic] (t-PAs) lead the pack. Every
year, stroke and heart attack victims are administered t-PAs such as actiase,
urokinase and streptokinase. While these treatments do save between
300,000-500,000 lives annually, one dose of urokinase cost approximately $1,500.
Comparatively, CardioEssentials is ridiculously cheap.

"Prevents heart attacks, strokes, and blood clots"
"Lowers blood pressure"
"Minimizes joint pain in osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis"
"Decreases cholesterol"
"CardioEssentials contains a truly revolutionary and powerful enzyme called
nattokinase that has produced monumental success for dissolving blood clots!"

(under heading "Product and Dosage Information for CardioEssentials")

"Therapeutic dose (e.g., person under medical supervision w/high blood pressure,
risk factors for coronary artery disease, high risk for blood clots, DVT). 4,000
fibrin units per day.
Ischemic strokes (e.g., person at risk for ischemic, "dry" stroke, or who is
recovering from a stroke, transient ischemic attack, RND {reversible ischemic
neurologic deficit], etc. 6,000 fibrin units per day.

These claims cause your products to be drugs, as drug, as defined in Section
201(g)(1)(B) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 321(g)(1)(B)]. Because these products are not
generally recognized as safe and effective when used as labeled, they are also
new drugs as defined in Section 201(p) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 321(p)]. New drugs
may not be legally marketed in the United States without prior approval from FDA
as described in Section 505(a) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 355(a)]. FDA approves new
drugs on the basis of scientific data submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate
that the drugs are safe and effective.

These products are also misbranded within the meaning of Section 502(f)(1) of
the Act, in that the labeling for these drugs fails to bear adequate directions
for use [21 U.S.C. 352(f)(1)].

Please note that similar therapeutic claims on you web site were brought to your
attention in a letter from FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
dated February 16, 2005. In that letter, we notified you hat claims for several
of your firm's products, including chlorella and coconut oil products, caused
those products to be unapproved new drugs within the meaning of the Act. A copy
of the February 16, 2005, letter, which also provides additional information
elated to the Dietary Supplement Health Education Act, is enclosed for your
reference.

This letter is not intended to be an all-inclusive review of your web site and
products your firm markets.

It is your responsibility to ensure that all products marketed by your firm
comply with the Act and its implementing regulations.

Failure to promptly correct these violations may result in enforcement action
without further notice.

Enforcement action may include seizure of violative products and/or injunction
against the manufacturers and distributors of violative products.

Please advise this office in writing, within 15 working days of receipt of this
letter, as to the specific steps you have taken or will be taking to correct
these violations, including the steps taken to assure that similar violations do
not recur.

Include any documentation necessary to show that correction has been achieved.
If you cannot complete all corrections before you respond, we expect that yo
will explain the reason for your delay and state when you will correct any
remaining deviations.

Your reply should be sent to the

Food and Drug Administration,
Attention:

Patrick J. Brown, Compliance
Officer, 550 W. Jackson Blvd
, 15th Floor, Chicago, Illinois 60661-5716.

Sincerely,
/S/

Scott J. MacIntire
District Director

Enclosure: Ref. No. CL-04-HFS-810-134, Dated February 16, 2005.
This page was posted on October 11, 2006.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*/QUOTE*]

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer liebt seinen Sohn, der prügelt ihn bald,
wer hasst seinen Sohn, der vermeidet Gewalt."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Citizen Jimserac - 03 Jul 2009 14:16 GMT
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.

Excellent posting, thanks Jan for reminding everyone of the vaccine
dangers, their growth retardant effects, and the fact that the
symptoms of the Vaccinosis damage may range from gross and obvious to
long term and subtle.

More research, particularly long term research,  and a much more
critical attitude towards the glowing propaganda of the vaccination
industry are required.

Thanks again,
Citizen Jimserac
Happy Oyster - 03 Jul 2009 17:05 GMT
>> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>>
>> Vaccines and Neurological Damage
[...]

>Excellent posting,

Orchestrated...

Signature

            "Der Kölner Dom ist groß und gothisch,
              der Knochenkult ist religiotisch."

                   http://www.reimbibel.de

Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 03:42 GMT
On Jul 2, 10:11 pm, "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.

Excellent posting, thanks Jan for reminding everyone of the vaccine
dangers, their growth retardant effects, and the fact that the
symptoms of the Vaccinosis damage may range from gross and obvious to
long term and subtle.

More research, particularly long term research,  and a much more
critical attitude towards the glowing propaganda of the vaccination
industry are required.

Thanks again,
Citizen Jimserac

You're very welcome.
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 12:41 GMT
[...]

>Excellent posting, thanks Jan for reminding everyone of the vaccine
>dangers, their growth retardant effects, and the fact that the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>You're very welcome.

Jan Drew and other naturopathic mafia shills appraise others of their group,
this way keeping their claims "in the air".

Signature

              " Ich glaub, ans große Weltgericht
             glaubt selbst manch Pfarrer heute nicht."

                    http://www.reimbibel.de

No Body - 02 Jul 2009 16:20 GMT
Being a recent return to this group, I'm wondering, do you always post
reams of idiotic bullshit or do you sometimes actually contribute factual
information of a useful nature?

> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.
Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 03:45 GMT
> http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/neurological_damage.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
> brain might produce these same points too.

>    Being a recent return to this group, I'm wondering, do you always post
> reams of idiotic bullshit or do you sometimes actually contribute factual
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
>> redness (color), fever (rubor) and swelling (tumor). Infections of the
>> brain might produce these same points too.

Unlike you No Body, I use my real name.
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 12:47 GMT
>Unlike you No Body, I use my real name.

Jan Drew can't prove ANYTHING. Not even being female of his name.

Signature

              " Ich glaub, ans große Weltgericht
             glaubt selbst manch Pfarrer heute nicht."

                    http://www.reimbibel.de

Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 21:06 GMT
>>Unlike you No Body, I use my real name.
>
> Jan Drew can't prove ANYTHING. Not even being female of his name.

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, sci.med.dentistry
From: "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:53:28 -0400
Local: Wed, Jun 10 2009 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: Yappy Oyster's lying web site is gone

  http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 21:42 GMT
>>>Unlike you No Body, I use my real name.
>>
>> Jan Drew can't prove ANYTHING. Not even being female of his name.

Jan Drew still cannot prove it. ;O)

Signature

            "Die Jungfernschaft sah Benedikt
           vor vierzig Jahren nicht so strikt."

                 http://www.reimbibel.de

Stephen Wilson - 02 Jul 2009 20:17 GMT
People believe all kinds of strange things, and most of the time it doesn't
matter. Trouble arises, however, when their odd beliefs affect other
people's health.

Such is the case with parents who choose not to immunize their children
against diseases that killed and crippled millions in decades past - before
such vaccines were developed and made widely available. The anti-vaccine
movement is driven largely by parents who believe that vaccines can cause
autism, a suspicion that has been investigated and disproven in numerous
studies.

The number of reported cases of autism increased dramatically in the 1990s
and early 2000s. This increase is largely attributable to changes in
diagnostic practices; it is not known how much, if any, growth came from
real changes in autism's prevalence, and no causal connection to the MMR
vaccine has been demonstrated. The following studies were published after
the 1998 Wakefield et al. paper.

A 1998 population study of Swedish children found no difference in the
prevalence of autistic children born before and after the 1982 introduction
of the MMR vaccine in Sweden.

A 2002 retrospective cohort study of all 537,303 children born in Denmark
from January 1991 through December 1998 found no statistically significant
difference in risk of autism among the 440,655 who were vaccinated with MMR.
This study provided strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR
vaccination causes autism.

In February 2004, a population-based case-controlled study of 624 cases and
1,824 matched controls, conducted by the Centers for Disease Control, found
no evidence to support an association between MMR and autism.

In September 2004, a case–controlled study of 1,294 cases of pervasive
developmental disorder and 4,469 controls from the UK General Practice
Research Database found a relative risk of 0.86 for MMR vaccine, which
suggests that MMR is not associated with an increased risk of pervasive
developmental disorders such as autism; on the contrary, the 0.86 represents
a decreased risk, though this decrease was not statistically significant.

In October 2004, a meta review, financed by the European Union, was
published in the October 2004 edition of Vaccine that assessed the evidence
given in 120 other studies and considered unintended effects of the MMR
vaccine. The authors concluded that:
- the vaccine is associated with some positive and negative side effects,
- it was "unlikely" that there was a connection between MMR and autism, and
- "The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies ...
are largely inadequate".

In January 2005, a study of all younger residents of Olmsted County,
Minnesota reported an eightfold increase in the age-adjusted incidence of
research-identified autism over a period beginning in the early eighties and
ending in the late nineties, but found no evidence of a link with MMR. The
study's authors said that the timing of the increase suggested that it may
have been due to improved awareness of the disorder, a growth in services,
and changing definitions.

From January 2005 through July 2007, Dan Olmsted, a senior editor for UPI,
conducted a journalistic investigation reported in his "Age of Autism"
column and found no unvaccinated children with autism. Olmsted looked for
autistic children among unvaccinated Amish; in a subset of homeschooled
children who are not vaccinated for religious reasons; and in a pediatric
practice in Chicago with several thousand never-vaccinated children.
However, in a critical 2005 assessment Olmsted's reporting was characterized
as "misguided" by two anonymous reporters. Both sources "believed that
Olmsted has made up his mind on the question and is reporting the facts that
support his conclusions". A 2006 study contradicted Olmsted by demonstrating
a genetically determined syndrome of autism and mental retardation prevalent
in the Old Order Amish population.

Japan provided a natural experiment on the subject: combined MMR vaccine was
introduced in 1989, but the programme was terminated in 1993 and only single
vaccines used thereafter. In March 2005 a study of over 30,000 children (278
cases) born in one district of Yokohama concluded "The incidence of all
autistic spectrum disorders (ASD), and of autism, continued to rise after
MMR vaccine was discontinued. The incidence of autism was higher in children
born after 1992 who were not vaccinated with MMR than in children born
before 1992 who were vaccinated. The incidence of autism associated with
regression was the same during the use of MMR and after it was
discontinued." The authors concluded: "The significance of this finding is
that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it
cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that
withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be
expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD."

In October 2005, the Cochrane Library published a review of 31 scientific
studies, which found no credible evidence of an involvement of MMR with
either autism or Crohn's disease. The review also stated "Measles, mumps and
rubella are three very dangerous infectious diseases which cause a heavy
disease, disability and death burden in the developing world.… [T]he impact
of mass immunisation on the elimination of the diseases has been
demonstrated worldwide." However the authors of the report also stated that
"the design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both
pre- and post-marketing, are largely inadequate."

In July 2006, a study of 27,749 Canadian children ruled out an association
between pervasive developmental disorder and MMR vaccinations.

A review published in September 2006 found no scientific evidence that the
MMR vaccine plays any part in the causes or triggering of autism, even in a
subgroup of children with the condition.

A 2006 study found no evidence of measles virus genome sequences persisting
in the blood of autistic children vaccinated with MMR.

A 2006 multi-site study of 351 children with ASD found no evidence that
onset of autistic symptoms or of regression was related to MMR vaccination.

A 2007 study found that there was no change in the rates of regressive
autism after MMR was withdrawn from Japan.

A 2007 case study used the figure in Wakefield's 1999 letter to The Lancet
alleging a temporal association between MMR vaccination and autism to
illustrate how a graph can misrepresent its data, and gave advice to authors
and publishers to avoid similar misrepresentations in the future.

A 2007 review of independent studies performed after the publication of
Wakefield et al.'s original report found that these studies provide
compelling evidence against the hypothesis that MMR is associated with
autism.

A review of the work conducted in 2004 for UK court proceedings but not
revealed until 2007 found that the polymerase chain reaction analysis
essential to the Wakefield et al. results was fatally flawed due to
contamination, and that it could not have possibly detected the measles that
it was supposed to have detected.

A 2008 study examined the blood of children aged about 10 years that had
been given the MMR vaccine, and found no difference in levels of measles
virus or antibodies between children diagnosed with autism and those who had
not.

A 2008 study found a significant increase in selective nonreceipt of MMR
vaccine in the U.S. that was temporally associated with the publication of
the Wakefield report, and which decreased to baseline levels by the time
significant media coverage began two years later; this suggests that parents
learned about the controversy from sources other than the media.

A 2008 study found that children with autism had no more peptides in their
urine than typical children, casting doubt on the proposed mechanism for the
hypothesized diagnosis of autistic enterocolitis.

A 2008 preliminary case-control study based on a parent survey presented
evidence that the common pain/fever reliever paracetamol (acetaminophen)
following MMR vaccination is apparently associated with development of
autism in children aged 1–5 years. The effect seemed to appear only in
children who show some post-vaccination regression together with other
post-vaccination sequelae such as fever, and it was not seen with other
painkillers such as ibuprofen. The effect has not been independently
confirmed.

A 2008 letter reported that younger siblings of Canadian children with
autism are significantly less likely to receive MMR and other immunizations,
suggesting that their parents are delaying or avoiding these children's
vaccinations.

A 2008 study of children with gastrointestinal disturbances found no
difference between those with ASD and those without, with respect to the
presence of measles virus RNA in the bowel; it also found that
gastrointestinal symptoms and the onset of autism were unrelated in time to
the administration of MMR vaccine.

A 2009 review of studies on links between vaccines and autism discusses the
MMR vaccine controversy as one of three main hypotheses which
epidemiological and biological studies fail to support.
t - 02 Jul 2009 21:08 GMT
> People believe all kinds of strange things, and most of the time it
> doesn't matter. Trouble arises, however, when their odd beliefs affect
[quoted text clipped - 163 lines]
> the MMR vaccine controversy as one of three main hypotheses which
> epidemiological and biological studies fail to support.

Steve, how bout you tell us about all the ALTERNATIVE Medicine that you
know will help. We can get drugs and other crap from our local pill pushers.
Stephen Wilson - 02 Jul 2009 23:49 GMT
> Steve, how bout you tell us about all the ALTERNATIVE Medicine that you
> know will help. We can get drugs and other crap from our local pill
> pushers.

Help what? Cure stuff that conventional medicine can't? Such as...?

Alternative medicine is dangerous. It means not only putting your faith in
something that has no evidence for its effectiveness, but also causes
further problems. A lot of alternative medicine can actually damage your
health rather than improve it. Many of the people "practicing" alternative
medicine hold no genuine qualifications, and most of the stuff they supply
is unregulated, both in terms of quantity and quality. It could also cause
people not to seek help from those who are properly qualified to provide
health care.

It is possible for someone with absolutely no training to leave a factory or
office job on Friday evening and set up shop as an alternative medicine
practitioner on Monday morning. In the afternoon the same practitioner can
open his or her own training school! The fact is that there are
practitioners offering their services today who couldn't pass a basic
biology examination. There are practitioners in all alternative medical
specialities who know virtually nothing about anatomy or physiology. There
are thousands of practitioners around who are a positive menace and a danger
to the health of their patients.

Complementary medicine I can handle. That means looking at other techniques,
with your doctor's knowledge, that can be used in conjunction with
conventional healthcare. They won't work for everyone. But if they work for
you, go for it. However if it's not done in conjunction with a doctor, then
there is the real risk that a treatment offered by an alternative
practitioner will interact dangerously with a treatment offered
simultaneously by an orthodox practitioner. Prescribed drugs and herbal
products are, for example, particularly likely to produce a dangerous
response.

And talking of local pill pushers, do you really think that alternative
drugs are reasonaby priced? No. The people pushing them are equally greedy,
and quite happy to prey on gullible members of the public. How many people
pop supplements they don't need each day? Ones that are either completely
innefective or actually causing damage. It's a lucrative market.

Here are just a few common herbs, what they're claimed to be good for, and
what damage they could cause:
Comfrey
Used in the treatment of ulcers, wounds, fractures and hernias. But may
cause liver damage and could be carcinogenic.

Evening Primrose
Recommended for premenstrual tension, high blood pressure, multiple
sclerosis and eczema. But may cause skin rashes, nausea and headaches and
should not be given to epileptics.

Feverfew
Used in the treatment of arthritis and migraine. But may cause mouth
ulceration, soreness of the tongue, abdominal pains and indigestion.

Ginseng
Commonly used as a sedative and aphrodisiac. Recommended for a huge list of
specific problems and as a general tonic. But may cause breast pains, high
blood pressure, skin problems, nervousness and diarrhoea.

Hawthorn
Used as a sedative and for heart problems and difficulties associated with
the menopause. But has a definite effect on the heart and really needs to be
taken under medical supervision.

Skullcap
Recommended as a diuretic, sedative and tonic. But may cause giddiness,
mental confusion and an erratic heart rate.

Valerian
Used as a tranquillizer. But may cause giddiness, headaches, spasms,
excitability and hallucinations.

Yarrow
Used in fevers, colds, high blood pressure and menstrual problems. But may
cause headaches, dizziness and skin problems.
t - 03 Jul 2009 14:02 GMT
Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not interested
in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of "healthcare". May
I suggest that you stay out of the ALTERNATIVE NG's? Now go take some more
drugs, you know you want to.
Stephen Wilson - 03 Jul 2009 17:27 GMT
> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
> "healthcare". May I suggest that you stay out of the ALTERNATIVE NG's? Now
> go take some more drugs, you know you want to.

You can suggest anything you like. What I do in an unmoderated newgroup
isn't up to you. Anyway, if you paid any kind of attention at all you'd have
noticed that this thread has been cross-posted to a number of groups. You
may not be interested in learning about both sides of the argument. That's
your problem, not mine. Suffice it to say that I don't agree with the views
that were presented and I think it's more than relevant for me to say so. If
you don't like it, make like the 3 wise monkeys.

The only drugs I would ever take would be ones that were of benefit. I weigh
up the pros and cons. What do you do? Listen to your granny, take some herbs
and hope for the best. Then expect the real doctors to cope with the
aftermath. And I can promise you, a hell of a lot of work carried out in
hospitals is to deal with damage caused by quacks.
t - 03 Jul 2009 21:38 GMT
>> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
>> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>>fearful and believe in drugs. That's ok, just keep on doing what you have
>>>been. While you are at it take a few "new" drugs too.
Stephen Wilson - 03 Jul 2009 22:48 GMT
>>> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
>>> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>>>fearful and believe in drugs. That's ok, just keep on doing what you
>>>>have been. While you are at it take a few "new" drugs too.

I couldn't tell you how many people end up in hospital due to self harming
through alternative remedies. It's not the sort of data that is routinely
captured. Most medical staff don't ask patients if they've been taking any
dodgy supplements. And I don't know how many patients would own up to it if
they did. However I can point you to at least one study that backs up my
point. "Consumption of herbal remedies and dietary supplements amongst
patients hospitalized in medical wards". It's on pubmedcentral. Conclusion:
"Herbal remedy consumption is common amongst patients hospitalized in
internal medicine wards and is often overlooked by the medical team.
Patients and doctors should be more aware of the possible adverse effects
and of the potential of herb-drug interactions."

Fearful? Yes, I'm fearful that parents could be damaging their children's
health by giving them things they don't need, and not giving them things
they do need. However, if you're an adult you're free to cause yourself as
much damage as you see fit.

Do I believe in drugs? Where they have been proven to be clinically
effective, of course I do. Are you suggesting that paracetomol and aspirin
have no effect on headaches? Or that insulin is of no benefit to someone who
is diabetic? Or that anti-rejection drugs should be binned by transplant
patients? Etc...

Yes, I'll keep on doing what I have been. As I'm fairly healthy right now, I
guess I'm doing something right.

Maybe while you're at it, you could go hug a tree and eat some magic
mushrooms.
Jan Drew - 04 Jul 2009 04:04 GMT
>>>> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
>>>> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> Maybe while you're at it, you could go hug a tree and eat some magic
> mushrooms.

Deaths Per Year
Cause
106,000 Non-error, negative effects of drugs2
80,000 Infections in hospitals10
45,000 Other errors in hospitals10
12,000 Unnecessary surgery8
7,000 Medication errors in hospitals9
250,000 Total deaths per year from iatrogenic
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 12:52 GMT
>> Maybe while you're at it, you could go hug a tree and eat some magic
>> mushrooms.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>7,000 Medication errors in hospitals9
>250,000 Total deaths per year from iatrogenic

On one hand Jan Drew attacks scientific medicine, on the other he wildly
advertises for life-endangering idiocies like not to vaccinate children.

Without vaccination year for year millions of children would die.

How can such a creature like Jan Drew advertise for killing children by
neglecting them?

Signature

              " Ich glaub, ans große Weltgericht
             glaubt selbst manch Pfarrer heute nicht."

                    http://www.reimbibel.de

t - 04 Jul 2009 14:52 GMT
>>>> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
>>>> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> benifit from those mushrooms.
> By the way, I have trimmed your cross posting.
No Body - 03 Jul 2009 23:05 GMT
>> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
>> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> of work carried out in hospitals is to deal with damage caused by
> quacks.

   Part of the problem with my cancer was due to an unregulated
"harmless, natural" supplement making it grow faster.
t - 04 Jul 2009 14:55 GMT
>>> Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
>>> interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>    Part of the problem with my cancer was due to an unregulated "harmless,
> natural" supplement making it grow faster.

Where did you get the idea that because something is "natural" that means it
is always "harmless"? The only people I have heard that from are the
uninformed anti-alt people.
Happy Oyster - 04 Jul 2009 21:14 GMT
>Where did you get the idea that because something is "natural" that means it
>is always "harmless"? The only people I have heard that from are the
>uninformed anti-alt people.

That is bloody nonsense, as the long-lasting war in the news-group demonstrates.

Signature

                  Homöopathisches Akutmittel bei Asthma

                 http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_akut.htm

Jan Drew - 05 Jul 2009 05:18 GMT
> "No Body" <someone@microsoft.org> wrote in message
> news:5hv3m.3656$8P7.276@newsfe21.iad...
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> is always "harmless"? The only people I have heard that from are the
> uninformed anti-alt people.
Happy Oyster - 05 Jul 2009 13:44 GMT
Ran out of material Jan Drew pushes other users' postings:

>> "No Body" <someone@microsoft.org> wrote in message
>> news:5hv3m.3656$8P7.276@newsfe21.iad...
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> is always "harmless"? The only people I have heard that from are the
>> uninformed anti-alt people.

Signature

Sprüche Salomos:
"Wer liebt seinen Sohn, der prügelt ihn bald,
wer hasst seinen Sohn, der vermeidet Gewalt."
Die Schreckliche Schrift in Reimen und Versen: http://www.reimbibel.de

Mark Probert - 05 Jul 2009 02:07 GMT
On Jul 3, 12:27 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> > Ah! Thank you Stevie, for letting everyone know that you are not
> > interested in alternatives to the deadly cut , sew , drug , school of
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> The only drugs I would ever take would be ones that were of benefit. I weigh
> up the pros and cons. What do you do?

I am glad you asked that of "t", a/k/a medsTools.

He drinks his urine.

Listen to your granny, take some herbs
> and hope for the best. Then expect the real doctors to cope with the
> aftermath. And I can promise you, a hell of a lot of work carried out in
> hospitals is to deal with damage caused by quacks.
No Body - 03 Jul 2009 15:30 GMT
> Steve, how bout you tell us about all the ALTERNATIVE Medicine that you
> know will help. We can get drugs and other crap from our local pill
> pushers.
   does he know about Rabid Dancing Hamsters?
Mark Probert - 02 Jul 2009 21:34 GMT
On Jul 2, 3:17 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> People believe all kinds of strange things, and most of the time it doesn't
> matter. Trouble arises, however, when their odd beliefs affect other
[quoted text clipped - 160 lines]
> MMR vaccine controversy as one of three main hypotheses which
> epidemiological and biological studies fail to support.

Steve, just to let you know, the scientific illiterates in
misc.health.alternative do not understand science. They know that
autism is caused by vaccines because Jenny McCarthy told them so.
Peter Bowditch - 27 Jun 2009 00:44 GMT
>> >> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
>> >> >just one confirmation of that.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Because you can't read, or if you can, you don't comprehend it.

If you offered some evidence I might be able to read it.

>> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>of diptheria vaccine.  You just can't know the absolute risk until
>it's too late.

So you still can't provide evidence of the huge number of deaths
caused by vaccines.

>> Do you
>> have any real evidence, not from anti-vaccination liar web sites, to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>The evidence that vaccines have taken more lives than they have
>theoretically saved is overwhelming.

Then you will have no problem pointing to this evidence, will you? Get
onto it soon, please.

>  I know you won't admit it, but
>the McKinlay study cited in "Public Health at the Crossroads," pg 43,
>states clearly that "only 3.5%, *at most*, of the decline in mortality
>from 1900 to 1975 in the US could be attributed to measures introduced
>for the major infectious diseases.

Which has what to do with vaccines killing millions of people?

>  You do understand that measures
>introduced for the major infectious diseases includes vaccine, don't
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>importance." But why should your bosses care when this multi-billion
>dollar franchise subsidized with taxpayer dollars is in the bag?

So, no evidence that vaccines cause more deaths than they prevent,
just a lot of accusations that I am paid to support vaccines.

Does a vaccine really cause Incredible Hulkism, as was recorded in
VAERS?

>> I didn't think so.
>
>You don't think, period.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Bob Badour - 27 Jun 2009 01:16 GMT
>>>>Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
>>>>vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>of diptheria vaccine.  You just can't know the absolute risk until
>>it's too late.

I am sorry for your loss. Your loss however does not justify killing
children by discouraging vaccination.

> So you still can't provide evidence of the huge number of deaths
> caused by vaccines.

I once saw a mother on T.V. railing against the rule that allows
airlines to carry children under 2 years old without a seat assignment.

At the time, over a 30 year period, 1 child had died in a survivable
crash who might have lived had he or she been strapped in a child seat.
As I recall, a total of 5 children had died, but 4 were not in
survivable crashes.

The mother I saw was the mother who lost that child.

Nothing anyone can say will ever convince that mother otherwise because
it was her child ripped from her arms by the force of the impact who
died while she watched. The hundreds or thousands of children who might
have died in car accidents on highways but didn't because their parents
could afford to fly without buying an extra seat will never count for
that mother. But they do count.

Now that parents take child safety seriously in the car, it may be time
to change the rule for the airlines. But over that time period, it made
sense.
Bob Officer - 27 Jun 2009 01:24 GMT
>>> >> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
>>> >> >just one confirmation of that.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>So you still can't provide evidence of the huge number of deaths
>caused by vaccines.

1. he used a fallacy of misdirection and then follows with another
duel fallacy, one of preconceived notion/bias and personal anecdotal
statement.

>>> Do you
>>> have any real evidence, not from anti-vaccination liar web sites, to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Then you will have no problem pointing to this evidence, will you? Get
>onto it soon, please.

He has one citation it seems. a single declaration by fiat in a
book. (I think it is a fallacy too). He cites an authority not
readily available, then cherry picks a single line out of the book.
Not one reference to the data used to make the original assertion.

>>  I know you won't admit it, but
>>the McKinlay study cited in "Public Health at the Crossroads," pg 43,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Which has what to do with vaccines killing millions of people?

However he doesn't not give enough information to discover which
McKinlay study he is referring to.  a google search on the term
"McKinlay study" gives "Results 1 - 10 of about 135,000 for McKinlay
study. (0.42 seconds) " which is like searching for a needle in a
haystack.

If judging a debate, I would have to take a bunch of points away from
him. (Use of fallacies and use of false authority, red herrings, and
strawmen.) He has not presented a viable argument at all.

>>  You do understand that measures
>>introduced for the major infectious diseases includes vaccine, don't
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Does a vaccine really cause Incredible Hulkism, as was recorded in
>VAERS?

Rolls eyes, I would like to see that report :)

>>> I didn't think so.
>>
>>You don't think, period.

he then resorts to the ad hominem fallacy.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

PeterB - 27 Jun 2009 05:09 GMT
> >> >> >Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
> >> >> >just one confirmation of that.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> If you offered some evidence I might be able to read it.

That was done, dipwit.  It's not my fault you can't accomplish a
Google search to find an article I posted *twice* in the last few
wks.

> >> >Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
> >> >vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> So you still can't provide evidence of the huge number of deaths
> caused by vaccines.

Already did that, TWICE, dipwit.

> >> Do you
> >> have any real evidence, not from anti-vaccination liar web sites, to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Then you will have no problem pointing to this evidence, will you? Get
> onto it soon, please.

Try looking up the word "diversion."  If you're lucky, there will be
only one entry.

> >  I know you won't admit it, but
> >the McKinlay study cited in "Public Health at the Crossroads," pg 43,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Which has what to do with vaccines killing millions of people?

It's been a pharmbot argument for years that receiving a failed
intervention makes use of an effective one less likely, leading to
death.  I suppose that only applies to a drug you happen to be
promoting?   Note that vitamin A was used very successfully to stem
mortalities in hospitalized children during the pre-MMR era.  Since
avitaminosis is cited by WHO is the primary cause of human diseases,
that means nutrients are the primary preventive.

> >  You do understand that measures
> >introduced for the major infectious diseases includes vaccine, don't
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> So, no evidence that vaccines cause more deaths than they prevent,
> just a lot of accusations that I am paid to support vaccines.

Say hello to your sponsors for me, okay?

> Does a vaccine really cause Incredible Hulkism, as was recorded in
> VAERS?

You can type without being able to read a dictionary, so who knows?

> >> I didn't think so.
>
> >You don't think, period.
No Body - 26 Jun 2009 22:31 GMT
On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
> PeterB <p...@mytrashmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Where can I see some evidence of this? No anti-vaccination liar web
> sites, please, just some places with facts.

As you label well informed posters according to your promotional
campaigns on behalf of industry, I won't accomodate your idiocy.
Twice in the last 10 days I posted a historical review of smallpox
vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
by country following use of vaccine.  Look it up.

   Re: Smallpox vaccine
   Anyone who dies from the vaccine probably just died first from the
vaccine, before getting smallpox, which would have killed them anyway...
   And since when does a sensible person consider anything starting with
"Holistic" a good thing?
Bob Badour - 26 Jun 2009 22:38 GMT
> On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> vaccine from the Holistic Pediatric Association showing death totals
> by country following use of vaccine.  Look it up.

Homeopathy is quackery. The site you cite endorses quackery. Doesn't
make for a very persuasive reference.
PeterB - 26 Jun 2009 23:41 GMT
> > On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Homeopathy is quackery. The site you cite endorses quackery. Doesn't
> make for a very persuasive reference.

In other words, the facts don't fit your preconcieved notions about
vaccine so you dismiss the source for something you think makes them
more vulnerable to attack.  If homeopathy is quackery, then the patent
model for drug manufacture is more so, as drugs do not cure or prevent
diseases.   If I'm wrong, list the diseases that are cured or
prevented by drugs and provide the epidemiological data to back it
up.  I'll wait.
Stephen Wilson - 27 Jun 2009 00:01 GMT
On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> > On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>prevented by drugs and provide the epidemiological data to back it
>up.  I'll wait.

Try http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/child-vpd.htm
Plenty of information there for a start.

What do you know about Haemophilus Influenzae type b (Hib)? Check out the
facts at:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs294/en/index.html

You're like a creationist, who thinks the theory of evolution shouldn't be
taught because it contradicts what your religion has taught. Do you advocate
that medical students be taught that vaccines only work in theory and that
there is no evidence for their effectiveness?

Before the days of vaccines, brain damage, blindness, deafness, paralysis,
amputations, organ damage, seizures, pneumonia and death were common. Try
talking to parents who have had to bury their children thanks to a disease
that could have been prevented.
Bob Badour - 27 Jun 2009 00:16 GMT
> On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>vaccine so you dismiss the source for something you think makes them
>>more vulnerable to attack.  If homeopathy is quackery,

There is no "if" about it. Homeopathy isn't even wrong.

What sort of idiot puts forward a site as an authoritative and credible
reference, and then responds with an ad hominem attack when someone
points out the site itself crushes its own credibility by endorsing
quackery?

The sort of idiot who has no persuasive argument--that's who.
PeterB - 27 Jun 2009 01:03 GMT
> > On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> There is no "if" about it. Homeopathy isn't even wrong.

So post your views into a thread about homeopathy, moron.

> What sort of idiot puts forward a site as an authoritative and credible
> reference, and then responds with an ad hominem attack when someone
> points out the site itself crushes its own credibility by endorsing
> quackery?

Your attempt to divert attention away from vaccine death totals using
the unrelated topic of homeopathy is the ad hominem, dipwit.  Did you
take a course in stupidity, or does it just come _naturally_?  Oh
that's right, in your case, it had to be a course.

> The sort of idiot who has no persuasive argument--that's who.

Yet no published sources are in agreement with you.  If I'm wrong, why
don't you post them?
Mark Probert - 29 Jun 2009 03:20 GMT
> > > On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Your attempt to divert attention away from vaccine death totals using
> the unrelated topic of homeopathy is the ad hominem, dipwit.  

Add logic toone of the topics of which you have noi knowledge. Even if
that were Bob's actions, it is surely not an ad hominem.

However, you are a well poisoner.

Did you
> take a course in stupidity, or does it just come _naturally_?  Oh
> that's right, in your case, it had to be a course.

You were a teacher?

> > The sort of idiot who has no persuasive argument--that's who.
>
> Yet no published sources are in agreement with you.  If I'm wrong, why
> don't you post them?-
Citizen Jimserac - 03 Jul 2009 13:57 GMT
> > > On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Yet no published sources are in agreement with you.  If I'm wrong, why
> don't you post them?

Quite correct.   It was a clear attempt at diversion from the main
topic.
as is typical when anyone exposes the vaccination fallacy.

It has become clear that the arguments against vaccination are
mounting, the evidence snowballing and the public perception,
indoctrinated by decades of favorable propaganda has now begun to
change to the realization that the vaccination apologists will repeat,
scream, please, cajole and, most importantly, use the FEAR argument
(booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!)   repeatedly in an
attempt to bolster their primitive and dangerous treatment.

Failing that, simple attacks and diversions are all they have left.

Rather pathetic.

Citizen Jimserac
http://www.vaccinetruth.org/doctors_against_vaccines.htm

http://www.wnho.net/vaccine_coverup.htm

http://en.wordpress.com/tag/vaccine-truth/
PeterB - 27 Jun 2009 01:40 GMT
On Jun 26, 7:01 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Tryhttp://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/child-vpd.htm
> Plenty of information there for a start.

CDC engages in marketing on behalf of the drug makers, as media
reports have proven.  For vaccine effectiveness or safety, it's not a
credible source of information.  That's it then?

> What do you know about Haemophilus Influenzae type b (Hib)? Check out the
> facts at:http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs294/en/index.html

Not a valid response to my challenge, but I'll quote from the article
to demonstrate the fallacy of your vaccine promotion.

"Unlike measles, polio or diphtheria, Hib does not cause a specific
illness with which it, alone, can be identified. The most deadly forms
of Hib infection include pneumonia and meningitis, but those diseases
can have other causes, and can LOOK THE SAME WHETHER CAUSED BY HIB OR
SOME OTHER AGENT [emphasis mine.]  More rarely, Hib is responsible for
other life-threatening complications in young children, such as septic
arthritis, an inflammation of the joints, and septicaemia, or blood
poisoning, BOTH OF WHICH ALSO CAN HAVE OTHER CAUSES."

When incidence cannot be reliably assessed due to confusion with other
pathologies, health outcomes from treatment cannot be accurately
measured, either.  The only reliable assessment for vaccine
effectiveness we have is the McKinlay study which established the
upper end of of vaccine impact to population health, which was a
measley 3.5% for a period of 75 years.

> You're like a creationist, who thinks the theory of evolution shouldn't be
> taught because it contradicts what your religion has taught.

You have zero knowledge of my religious views or what I believe should
be taught in schools or how that relates to my scientific training.
Your comment is telling, however.

> Do you advocate
> that medical students be taught that vaccines only work in theory and that
> there is no evidence for their effectiveness?

Phishing?  I never said there was no evidence of their effectivenss, I
said the quality of that evidence is poor.  The evidence for their
safety is worse.

> Before the days of vaccines, brain damage, blindness, deafness, paralysis,
> amputations, organ damage, seizures, pneumonia and death were common. Try
> talking to parents who have had to bury their children thanks to a disease
> that could have been prevented.

Association is not causation.  Enormous declines in the severity of
human sickness were occuring before introduction of vaccine, which
anyone who has studied medical history would know.  Read McKeown.
Peter Bowditch - 27 Jun 2009 13:44 GMT
<snip some drivel from the anonymous PeterB>

>> You're like a creationist, who thinks the theory of evolution shouldn't be
>> taught because it contradicts what your religion has taught.
>
>You have zero knowledge of my religious views or what I believe should
>be taught in schools or how that relates to my scientific training.
>Your comment is telling, however.

I see that you don't understand the use of the word "like" or the
concept of simile". Or perhaps you have your own definitions of these
words.

>> Do you advocate
>> that medical students be taught that vaccines only work in theory and that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>said the quality of that evidence is poor.  The evidence for their
>safety is worse.

I see you don't know what "phishing" is. Or perhaps this is another
word you redefine.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Peter Bowditch - 27 Jun 2009 00:48 GMT
>> > On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>prevented by drugs and provide the epidemiological data to back it
>up.  I'll wait.

While you are waiting perhaps you could dig out the evidence that
vaccines cause more deaths than they present.

Oh, and if you want just one example of a disease prevented by real
medicine, with epidemiological data to back it up, I believe you
mentioned it yourself. Smallpox.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Mark Probert - 29 Jun 2009 03:16 GMT
> > > On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Petey tried this before with Dr. Moran, and kept moving the goal
posts.
No Body - 01 Jul 2009 01:59 GMT
On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> No Body wrote:
> > On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Homeopathy is quackery. The site you cite endorses quackery. Doesn't
> make for a very persuasive reference.

In other words, the facts don't fit your preconcieved notions about
vaccine so you dismiss the source for something you think makes them
more vulnerable to attack.  If homeopathy is quackery, then the patent
model for drug manufacture is more so, as drugs do not cure or prevent
diseases.   If I'm wrong, list the diseases that are cured or
prevented by drugs and provide the epidemiological data to back it
up.  I'll wait.

   You'll wait a long time. No one could be so stewpid as to waste time
with such a challenge. It's akin to ipse dixit; except the assertion does
not have to be proven, it's practically universally acknowledged by anyone
with a brain. Perhaps it is thou that should be called anencephalic.
Mark Probert - 01 Jul 2009 02:14 GMT
> On Jun 26, 5:38 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> not have to be proven, it's practically universally acknowledged by anyone
> with a brain. Perhaps it is thou that should be called anencephalic.-

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "PERHAPS"?
PeterB - 26 Jun 2009 23:15 GMT
> On Jun 25, 8:16 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Anyone who dies from the vaccine probably just died first from the
> vaccine, before getting smallpox, which would have killed them anyway...

Not very bright, are you? Imagine this as a closing statement in a
trial for someone whose actions cost another his life:  "We all feel
for the victim, but don't lay blame to my client for inflicting a
fatal gunshot wound to someone who was going to die anyway, maybe from
another gunshot wound, which could have happened at any time."    You
should probably change your screen-name from "No Body" to "No Brain."
That client would fry.

>     And since when does a sensible person consider anything starting with
> "Holistic" a good thing?

Since when do morons have the capacity to assess anything sensible or
good?
Mark Probert - 29 Jun 2009 03:16 GMT
Holistic" a good thing?

> Since when do morons have the capacity to assess anything sensible or
> good?-

Every time I read one of your posts, I ask myself the same thing.
Mark Probert - 26 Jun 2009 14:37 GMT
> > > Markey doesn't respect anyone's right to choose.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Your bias is well known, but it's only evidence that you don't know
> anything about vaccine safety or effectiveness.

Like I have said, there is no point in showing you the evidence that
you are wrong, because 1) you do not understand it, 2) you use illogic
and logical fallacies demonstrating that your critical thinking skills
are non-existent, 3) you will use cherry picked quotes and stats, and
4) you have never shown a knowledge of statistics.

> > >  Note that he isn't
> > > campaigning against poor diet, second hand cigarette smoke,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Your beliefs are touching, but the science supporting vaccination is
> seriously flawed.  

Only in flawed minds.

Half a million documented vaccine-caused deaths is
> just one confirmation of that.  Had you forgotten?

YOU claim that.

> > Other than that, he's a swell
>
> > > guy.
>
> > You do not know what an understatement that is.
Mark Probert - 25 Jun 2009 14:38 GMT
> > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 123 lines]
> there showing that vaccination is the way to go, but there is also a
> lot out there that makes a parent hesitate.

Only if you do not understand the science behind vaccines. Also, you
are way too young to have lived through the era when many of these now
vaccine preventable diseases were rampant, where Johnny did not return
to school in September because he was in an iron lung, where Susie
caught the measles, and she was all of a sudden in a wheelchair and
could not talk, where Jimmy now was wearing hearing aids after he had
the mumps, etc. etc. etc.

> I am not completely against vaccination, after all, my first two were
> vaccinated.  My first born now almost 18 went to a pre-school as a
> 'normal child model' for dissabled children to interact with.  

Frankly, I would prefer not to have my kids watching that model and
interacting with someone whose parent spouts your crap.

Several
> the parents of other children there claimed that there child had been
> harmed by vaccines.  

Claiming is one thing, proving is another. Most claims are based on
coincidence.

Now of course, I never saw documentation of this,
> but I did see the children and how severe there dissabilities were.
> This made me start looking at the statistics and the possible risks.
> And then when he went to public school he had to have the MMR.  Within
> 24hours he ended up at Overlake Hospital in Bellevue Washington with a
> high fever,swollen glands in his neck, throat, and under his arms and
> a terrible rash all over his body.  

24 hours? Hmmmm...can you say incubation period?

After several tests they concluded
> he had a slight case of Measles, Mumps and Reubella.  It was only then
> I decided to stop vaccinating.  If one of my children had an over
> sensitivity to a vaccine then maybe one of my others might too, and
> what if it turned out to be worse than this?  There are genetic
> anomolies in 3 of my 4 children that may have been the cause for this
> 'reaction'.  So, I am not willing to take that risk.

What "genetic anomalies" are those?

> Call me a 'parasite' if you want to, but I have my reasons, good or
> not, for my decisions when it comes to the safety of my children.  I
> only hope others care as much for their's as I do mine.  

Why would you question that? I chose to vaccinate my kids, and I also
chose to ensure that they did not get exposed to diseases by avoiding
children of parasites.

And medicine
> has proven in it's search for making medical advancements that is has
> made more than a few poor choices, 'for the greater good'.

So? The overwhelming body of scientific evidence says that vaccines
prevent disease and disability and save lives. What happened with
other things is irrelevant, unless you lack critical thinking skills.

Most of
> modern day medicine is leaps and bounds ahead of where it used to be
> and I know to get there mistakes were not always foreseable.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there is a lot of confusing information out there and the vaccine
> makers try to cover too much up.  

Aha! You have swallowed the anti-vaccination kool aid. Substituting
conspiracy theory for science is a tell-tale sign of an overdose of
kool aid.

If they were acting and sharing
> information with the public instead of trying not to let information
> out that might scare me, I probably wouldn't be so untrusting of them,
> or their medicine / vaccines

Do prove that they are hiding this information? What was hidden?
SPECIFY.
Bob Officer - 25 Jun 2009 19:11 GMT
>> > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 131 lines]
>could not talk, where Jimmy now was wearing hearing aids after he had
>the mumps, etc. etc. etc.

In the mid 1960s, We (my school) had a 25 year old Athletic Coach,
who caught the mumps, and nearly died, He spent 6 weeks in the
hospital and another 4 months being careful about his health. The
person he caught the mumps from was 17, strong and athletic. He spent
some time in hospital, too. He could not father children, ever. Then,
come to think about it, the coach never had any children either.

Can you imagine what is going to happen to these anti-vaxers when the
heard immunity fails them, around age 25.

>> I am not completely against vaccination, after all, my first two were
>> vaccinated.  My first born now almost 18 went to a pre-school as a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Claiming is one thing, proving is another. Most claims are based on
>coincidence.

Anecdotal. Lots of anecdotal testimony does not make it evidence.

>> Now of course, I never saw documentation of this,
>> but I did see the children and how severe there dissabilities were.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>24 hours? Hmmmm...can you say incubation period?

I wonder if she read the literature that came with the shot.

>> After several tests they concluded
>> he had a slight case of Measles, Mumps and Reubella.  It was only then
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>What "genetic anomalies" are those?

Hmm... Does she even understand what a shot is supposed to do?

and Secondly what sort of tests were done to identify these so called
"genetic anomalies"?

Does anyone else see what is going on with her Anecdotal Account? She
continues introducing all sort of statements as "evidence", but in
the end it is all mere say. Which series of stats did she look at?
Which data set was used to derive those stats?

>> Call me a 'parasite' if you want to, but I have my reasons, good or
>> not, for my decisions when it comes to the safety of my children.  I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>chose to ensure that they did not get exposed to diseases by avoiding
>children of parasites.

and the problem is down line the children will suffer. Or will they
just lie and die which it comes to international travel?

>> And medicine
>> has proven in it's search for making medical advancements that is has
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>prevent disease and disability and save lives. What happened with
>other things is irrelevant, unless you lack critical thinking skills.

Serious lack. When their child becomes ill, all the children should
be removed. Reason parental neglect.

>> Most of
>> modern day medicine is leaps and bounds ahead of where it used to be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>conspiracy theory for science is a tell-tale sign of an overdose of
>kool aid.

Kookaid... A flavoring of Science and Sweetened with irrationality.

>> If they were acting and sharing
>> information with the public instead of trying not to let information
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Do prove that they are hiding this information? What was hidden?
>SPECIFY.

Her information however is mostly opinions of people unqualified to
offer them, Anecdotal in nature, and highly suspect, isn't it?

But then what do you expect out of a neglectful parent?

What is the term for mentally ill people that try their best to
rationalize their need go against society?

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

Stephen Wilson - 25 Jun 2009 18:55 GMT
<snip>

>But when it comes to something like injecting a possibly deadly
>disease into my kids?...  and with the genetic anomoly...  I'll wait.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>out that might scare me, I probably wouldn't be so untrusting of them,
>or their medicine / vaccines.

That's not entirely correct. There is a lot of information out there, but
the only confusing information comes from people who have their own agendas.
Any Tom, Dick or Harry can put a page on the internet claiming that vaccines
are dangerous (along with plenty of other fascinating claims - for instance,
did you know that 911 was planned by the US government, a UFO was recovered
at Roswell, global warming is a fraud, Princess Diana was murdered by the
royal family, the holocaust never happened, the moon landing was a hoax,
etc.). Meanwhile, there's more than enough real research that shows how safe
vaccines are. What is dangerous is leaving children unprotected.

Does mercury cause autism? Probably not. But it's irrelevant because the MMR
jabs don't contain mercury. However fish does. So you'd better never feed
your children fish, just in case. And don't ever give them any fruit,
because it will have been sprayed with cancer causing pesticides. Keep them
indoors because the sun will cause skin cancer. No red meat either - that's
been linked to cancer (along with white sugar, white flour, sweeteners,
hydrogenated oil, etc). Make sure your house is antiseptically clean - that
will stop them getting any bugs. But don't let them mix with any other
children, because they won't have developed an immune system.

When I was in college, one of my friends tried pressing the lift button 5
times and the lift door opened. From then on, he was then convinced that the
lift came quicker if he pressed the button 5 times. Human beings love making
links between things that have no connection. I could use statistics to
prove that global warming is linked to the number of pirates.

How about checking some trust-worthy sources before panicing about every
scare story? Here's the results from a UK study on 5,000 children, and
reported on the pages of the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3640898.stm

Now if there was any real link, a study of that scale would produce some
real evidence. Guess what? Overall, 78% of the children with autism or a PDD
had received MMR. Similarly, 82% of the other children had been given MMR.
The 4% difference was not significant. Any link between the MMR vaccine and
autism was ruled out by the researchers. Just as it has been by numerous
other studies carried out by numerous other researchers in different
countries.

So instead of trying to blame the MMR vaccine for autism, parents should
ensure their children are protected from diseases that can kill, and let
health professionals move on and find the real cause(s) of autism instead of
chasing red herrings.
Bob Badour - 25 Jun 2009 19:10 GMT
> I could use statistics to
> prove that global warming is linked to the number of pirates.

Nuh uh! Everybody knows it's the condors dammit! Condors cause global
warming AND autism. It's a well-known fact.
Bob Officer - 26 Jun 2009 05:17 GMT
><snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>links between things that have no connection. I could use statistics to
>prove that global warming is linked to the number of pirates.

All Hail his Noodleness!

>How about checking some trust-worthy sources before panicing about every
>scare story? Here's the results from a UK study on 5,000 children, and
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>health professionals move on and find the real cause(s) of autism instead of
>chasing red herrings.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

mindy - 25 Jun 2009 02:43 GMT
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm sorry,  I didn't know Mark had someone else answering for him.
And I also didn't know that adressing someone personally was
'stalking'.
Bob Officer - 25 Jun 2009 05:37 GMT
>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
>And I also didn't know that adressing someone personally was
>'stalking'.

You have one thing right.

you are sorry.

Signature

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
http://www.skeptics.com.au

D. C. Sessions - 26 Jul 2009 05:00 GMT
> This link has the aactual 'minutes' to a hearing done by gov't
> officials questioning witnesses...
> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&doc
id=f:91047.wais

"Officials" in this case being congressmen with an ax to grind and
hand-picked cheering section.  No facts in evidence.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
Jan Drew - 23 Jun 2009 06:17 GMT
On Jun 22, 8:36 pm, mindy <UsRc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 2:41 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>
> Foreign DNA from monkey kidneys is not natural to the human body,

Who said that there is any of this in vaccines?

> unless of course someone in your past family tree conceived from
> practicing beastiality. Which I doubt happened.

Well, considering your posts, I do not share your doubts.

> Then there is the mercury, the aluminum,

Both found in the environment, and in the human body without
considering any from vaccines. Anyway, there is no thimerosal in the
full range of childhood vaccines, so the point is moot.

and a long list of other
> contaminates including unknown monkey viruses,

You know there are unknown viruses? That sounds just plain stupid.

like what happened with
> polio and the SV40 virus, which by the way was named SV40 because it
> was the 40th monkey virus found contaminating vaccinesl.

Oh? That is news to the rest of the real world. Maybe not yours, but,
you have never shown any connection with reality.

> And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
> between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
> inflamation, fever, localized swelling, just to name a few of the
> minor reactions.

Hmm...did you read the word "antigen"? Also, side effects are
extraordinarily rare and far milder than getting the actual disease.
You are too young to know what it was like when these diseases ran
rampant. If that returns, I will not stand in your way of getting a
clue and rescuing your children from your former negligence.

> If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
> government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
> vaccines?-

Simple. They wanted to limit the number of frivolous lawsuits against
the manufacturers since that would dry up research and no progress to
future safety will be made. In no way what-so-ever is the fund a
concession of your point.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2007/06/15/couricandco/entry2934107.shtml

June 15, 2007

Autism: Why The Debate Rages

(CBS)
Sharyl Attkisson is the Capitol Hill Correspondent for CBS News.
With the first autism case now being heard in federal vaccine court in
Washington D.C., it makes sense to ask: Why is anyone even still debating
the possibility of a link between vaccines and autism? After all, for
years, many government health officials, advisors and vaccine manufacturers
have said there's no association.

Here are a number of reasons why the question remains open:

1. While government scientists, advisors and pharmaceutical companies have
been responsible for infinite lifesaving and life improving medical
advances, they are not infallible.

. It's the same group that originally thought it was safe to use x-ray
machines in shoe stores, gave pregnant women Thalidomide for morning
sickness and once allowed mercury in medicines. They assured us Vioxx and
Duract were safe painkillers, prescribed Rezulin for diabetics and then
denied any of them were responsible for patient deaths. If we never
questioned that group, we might not have discovered that Fen-phen and the
dietary supplement Ephedra are not safe weight loss products, that
antidepressants in kids can lead to suicidality and Viagra can cause
blindness. The list goes on.

. When it comes to vaccines, the same group failed to predict that the
1990's rotavirus (diarrhea) vaccine would have to be pulled from the market
after infant deaths. They encouraged use of the oral polio vaccine
(eventually discontinued after it gave too many children polio). And they
allowed the use of a mercury neurotoxin preservative in childhood vaccines,
only to admit later that they hadn't thought to calculate the cumulative
amount kids were getting as more and more vaccines were added to the
childhood immunization schedule.

. Recent history demonstrates that too often, government health officials,
mainstream doctors and pharmaceutical companies aren't on the leading edge
of alerting us to health risks; they're bringing up the rear. Patients feel
left to fend for themselves, seeking independent research and opinions on
their own. They and their dogged, relentless determination have often been
the catalyst that eventually brings medical dangers to the forefront.

2. Government scientists, advisors and vaccine manufacturers often take an
all-or-nothing approach to vaccinations.

. Government officials and infectious disease experts I've spoken with are
fearful that if vaccine side effects are better publicized, or if a link
between vaccines and autism and ADD were made, the public would overreact
and lose faith in the entire vaccination program. The result, they're
afraid, would be parents refusing to give their children any vaccines,
leading to new, deadly epidemics of preventable diseases. That indeed would
be a disaster. However, their fears have resulted in something I call an
all-or-nothing approach: they tend to promote nearly all vaccines for
nearly all children as equally necessary and equally safe. Yet at the same
time, if asked, they agree not all vaccines are equally safe, equally
beneficial, equally necessary and equally tolerated by each individual
child.

. Through the Internet and other resources, parents are now able to find
research on vaccines and read it for themselves. They compare the
government's all-or-nothing approach to the research and become skeptical
that the government is presenting the whole picture on vaccine safety
generally.

3. Government officials and mainstream scientists who dispel any
vaccine/autism/ADD link have ties to vaccine makers.

. There's so much overlap among pharmaceutical companies, government
scientists and advisors that the information they provide at least has the
appearance of a conflict of interest. Government scientists and advisors
often do not mention their connections to the vaccine industry when they
provide opinions on the vaccine/autism/ADD issue.

. One of the best examples of this is the landmark autism/vaccine study
published in Pediatrics. Early in his study, the lead author, CDC's Dr.
Thomas Verstraeten, found statistically significant associations between
the amount of mercury (thimerosal) exposure kids got from their childhood
vaccines, and a wide range of brain disorders. However, the published
version of the study (the one the authors say is accurate) found no
evidence of a link to autism. Not disclosed was that Dr. Verstraeten had
left CDC midstream during the study and had gone to work for Glaxo, a
vaccine manufacturer. That failure to disclose was criticized in a later
publication of Pediatrics, but it got little mainstream attention. Also
getting little attention was a letter from well-respected scientists, also
in Pediatrics, who echoed what parents of autistic children had been saying
for months: they questioned the use and exclusion of certain data from Dr.
Verstraeten's study that eventually reduced the statistical ties between
vaccines and neurodisorders.

. University and government researchers and advisors often do research for
vaccine companies, help develop vaccines (even profit from them), and/or
are paid to consult for them. Often, these researchers do not disclose
their industry ties when they publicly dispel the notion of a link between
autism or ADD and vaccines.

. Lastly, the CDC is inextricably tied to vaccine makers through contracts
and other business and financial relationships that open the door for the
possibility of conflicts.

4. Non-profits which dispel any vaccine/autism/ADD link have ties to
vaccine makers.

. Non-profits that promote vaccinations have ties to vaccine makers that
they often do not disclose when giving their opinions on vaccine safety.
One example is "Every Child By Two." This group contacted CBS News several
years ago in an unsuccessful attempt to prevent one of our stories about
the vaccine safety from airing. In forms filed for the IRS, the non-profit
lists an official from vaccine maker Wyeth Pharmaceuticals as its
Treasurer. It lists vaccine maker Chiron as a paid client.

. Another example of a non-profit tied to the industry is "The Vaccine
Fund." Its President from 2000-2005 was Jacques-Francois Martin, formerly
CEO of vaccine maker Sanofi-Pasteur, CEO of vaccine maker Chiron, and
President of the International Federation of the Pharmaceutical
Manufacturers' Association. While at The Vaccine Fund, his salary was paid
by a company that says it "has developed particular strength in the vaccine
industry and vaccine development."

5. The dual role of the CDC undermines the appearance of fairness.

. There is a perceived, if not real, conflict of interest with the
government's Centers for Disease Control (CDC) heavily promoting vaccines,
but also responsible for monitoring adverse events. At least two respected
medical journals, the "American Journal of Public Health" and "Pediatrics"
have published letters or articles recommending "greater independence in
vaccine safety assessments" apart from "the highly successful program to
promote immunizations." In short, the CDC's bread and butter is achieving
high vaccination rates. But that role is in conflict with the agency's
responsibility to fully research and disclose adverse events that could, in
theory, bring down vaccination rates.

6. There is no definitive research proving a link between vaccines and
autism or ADD, but there is also no definitive research ruling it out.

. Something rarely reported is that while there's no definitive study
linking vaccines to autism or ADD, there is also no study definitively
disproving a link. And there's a substantial body of peer-reviewed,
published science from places like Columbia, Yale and Northeastern
suggesting a link, or pointing to the need for further study.

. Many credible voices deny a link. But many other credible voices support
the idea of a link. One example of the latter is George Wayne Lucier,
formerly a senior official at the National Institutes of Health in
Environmental Toxicology, an NIH advisor, member of the National Academy of
Sciences Committee on Toxicity Testing and a scientific advisor for EPA who
concludes "...it is highly probably that use of thimerosal as a
preservative has caused developmental disorders, including autism, in some
children." A lengthy Congressional investigation also concluded that the
autism epidemic is likely linked to vaccinations.

7. Those who say autism and ADD are not linked to vaccines do not know what
is causing the epidemics.

. The most frightening part of the autism/ADD epidemics is that if, indeed,
they're unrelated to vaccinations, that our best, brightest public health
experts still have no idea what is causing it. Excluding ADD, one out of
every 150 American children are now being diagnosed with autism.

Vaccinations have provided lifesaving miracles in public health. However,
it's undisputed that they are also responsible for many serious adverse
events including brain disorders and, rarely, deaths. Trying to maximize
the potential benefits of vaccines and minimize the harm shouldn't be seen
as a threat to the nation's inoculation program, it's merely a logical step
forward.

One scientist who testified for the plaintiff this week in The Vaccine
Court said there's a way to test children for a hidden hole in their immune
make-up that makes them susceptible to bad immune reactions from
vaccinations. He said that, ideally, every child should undergo such a test
before their first vaccinations. But he also said the test is very
expensive and so "not worth it." Many parents might disagree. If they knew
such a test was available, they'd find a way to pay for it. But such
information has to be disseminated to the public before a first step can
even be considered.

Mainstream medicine initially said that autism was caused by mothers who
weren't affectionate enough with their children. If that doesn't teach us
that we should always seek further knowledge and not necessarily accept
what's spoon-fed to us by certain experts.then nothing will.

http://www.injuryboard.com/about.aspx
About InjuryBoard.com
InjuryBoard is a growing community of attorneys, media professionals, safety
industry experts, and local activists, committed to making a difference by
helping families stay safe and avoid injury, and helping those who are
injured get the assistance they need to move on with their lives after an
accident.

http://theresma.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!80EE15D075B65A13!361.entry

June 20
CDC Admits Thimerosal Safety Study Flawed
... so basically, you can't trust anything they've said about how safe
thimerosal is, or vaccines are. They've been doing the bidding of Big Pharma
all along, in addition to their own pathological quest to vaccinate everyone
against everything as soon after birth as possible (as if there is no other
way to prevent diseases, and as if vaccines are harmless).

Click through the link to read David Kirby's piece on the Huffington Post.

Quote

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/cdc-vaccine-study-design_b_108398.html

CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding has delivered a potentially explosive
report to the powerful House Appropriations Committee, in which she admits
to a startling string of errors in the design and methods used in the CDC's
landmark 2003 study that found no link between mercury in vaccines and
autism, ADHD, speech delay or tics.

Gerberding was responding to a 2006 report from the National Institute of
Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which concluded that the CDC's
flagship thimerosal safety study was riddled with "several areas of
weaknesses" that combined to "reduce the usefulness" of the study.

"CDC concurs," Dr. Gerberding wrote in an undated mea culpa to Congress,
(provided to me through a Capitol Hill staffer) adding that her agency "does
not plan to use" the database in question, the Vaccine Safety Datalink,
(VSD) for any future "ecological studies" of autism.

In fact, Gerberding's report said, any continued use of the VSD for similar
ecological studies of vaccines and autism "would be uninformative and
potentially misleading."

Ecological vaccine studies are large, epidemiological analyses of risks and
trends using computerized data from large populations -- in this case
children enrolled at several big HMOs -- without ever examining a single
patient in person.

CDC officials conducted at least five separate analyses of the data over a
four-year period from 1999-2003. The first analysis showed that children
exposed to the most thimerosal by one month of age had extremely high
relative risks for a number of outcomes, compared with children who got
little or no mercury: The relative risk for ADHD was 8.29 times higher, for
autism, it was 7.62 times higher, ADD, 6.38 times higher, tics, 5.65 times,
and speech and language delays were 2.09 more likely among kids who got the
most mercury.

Over time, however, all of these risks declined into statistical
insignificance, statistical inconsistency or else outright oblivion: The
relative risk for autism plummeted from 7.62 in the first analysis, to 2.48
in the second version, to 1.69 in the third round, to 1.52 in the fourth,
and down to nothing at all in the fifth, final, and published analysis
printed in the Journal Pediatrics in November of 2003.

Vaccine officials attributed the steady drop to the elimination of
"statistical noise" from the data through due diligence and the endeavor for
excellence in governmental statistical analysis.

Indeed, the VSD study was the main pillar of a hugely influential 2004
report by the Institute of Medicine, which also concluded that there was no
evidence of link between mercury, vaccines and autism.

To this day, public health officials routinely point to five "large
epidemiological studies" representing the "highest quality science," none of
which found any link to thimerosal.

In fact, the American VSD study has long been held up as the best and
brightest of them all (the others were in Sweden, the UK, and two in
Denmark). And this reputation has stuck in the minds of medicine and the
media.

Curiously though, even the study's lead author -- Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, an
employee of vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline -- protested that the VSD study
"found no evidence against an association, as a negative study would. In
fact, he said that additional study was needed, which "is the conclusion to
which a neutral study must come."

That's when Congress stepped in.

In 2005, a group of Senators and Representatives headed by Sen. Joe
Lieberman wrote to the NIEHS (an agency of the National Institutes of
Health) saying that many parents no longer trusted the CDC to conduct
independent minded studies of its own vaccine program. Lieberman et al asked
NIEHS to review the CDC's work on the vaccine database and report back with
critiques and suggestions.

The final NIEHS report was a serious and thoughtful critique of where the
CDC went wrong in its design, conduct and analysis of the study. The NIEHS
panel "identified several serious problems," with the CDC's effort,
criticism to which the agency had not responded -- until now.

In her letter to the House Appropriations Committee, the CDC Director
responded directly to many -- though not all -- of the most important
criticisms and recommendations contained in the NIEHS panel report.

For example, the NIEHS had criticized CDC for failing to account for other
mercury exposures, including maternal sources from flu shots and immune
globulin, as well as mercury in food and the environment.

"CDC acknowledges this concern and recognizes this limitation," the
Gerberding reply says.

The NIEHS also took CDC to task for eliminating 25% of the study population
for a variety of reasons, even though this represented, "a susceptible
population whose removal from the analysis might unintentionally reduce the
ability to detect an effect of thimerosal." This strict entry criteria
likely led to an "under-ascertainment" of autism cases, the NIEHS reported.

"CDC concurs," Gerberding wrote, again noting that its study design was "not
appropriate for studying this vaccine safety topic. The data are intended
for administrative purposes and may not be predictive of the outcomes
studied."

Another serious problem was that the HMOs changed the way they tracked and
recorded autism diagnoses over time, including during the period when
vaccine mercury levels were in decline. Such changes could "affect the
observed rate of autism and could confound or distort trends in autism
rates," the NIEHS warned.

"CDC concurs," Dr. Gerberding wrote again, "that conducting an ecologic
analysis using VSD administrative data to address potential associations
between thimerosal exposure and risk of ASD is not useful."

Read that sentence one more time. The head of the CDC is saying that its
most powerful and convincing piece of exonerating evidence for thimerosal
is, in effect, "useless."

I hope everyone will read it, including the recommendations to make the VSD
better, and the CDC's agreement with all of the suggestions.

As questionable at the US thimerosal study was, "it was an improvement on
other studies, including the two in Denmark, both of which had serious
weaknesses in their designs," Dr. Irva Hertz-Picciotto, Professor of Public
Health at UC Davis Medical School and Chair of the NIEHS panel, told
reporter Dan Olmsted at UPI.

That leaves very little for the CDC to go on in terms of proving that
thimerosal and autism are not associated in any way.

Yes, there is always the study of disability services data from
California -- which seem to be rising among the youngest cohorts of kids,
who presumably received little or no mercury because thimerosal was largely
removed from childhood shots.

But California is an "ecological study" with problems of its own.

"Although (this) information is often used by media and research entities to
develop statistics and draw conclusions, some of these findings may
misrepresent the quarterly figures," cautions the website of the California
Department of Developmental Services (DDS). "Increases in the number of
persons reported from one quarter to the next do not necessarily represent
persons who are new to the DDS system."

Even the CDC admits that "there are several limitations" with linking a VSD
study design with the California data, Gerberding wrote to Congress,
because, among other things, California only counts "persons who were
referred to and/or voluntarily entered" the disability system."

It will be interesting to see how the House Committee -- and the mainstream
media -- react to this rather breathtaking confession by the CDC, which does
seem to want to conduct the best vaccine-autism science possible (see
Gerberding's replies to NIEHS recommendations for improving the VSD: CDC
officials are currently conducting in- depth follow up studies with VSD
patients).

As the waning months of the Bush administration get underway, I can't help
but wonder if a little housecleaning might be going on at some of our top
health agencies.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/02/17/cdc_knew_mercury_in_vaccines_ind
uces_autism.htm


949
February 17, 2004
Print this article
CDC Knew: Mercury in Vaccines Induces Autism
Categories
Pharma

It is quite clear that mercury is a potent neurotoxin and actually kills
developing nerve cells. The serious thing is that mercury has been injected
into children with numerous vaccines and it still is - with the majority of
flu vaccines. Visual evidence in a film linked here, it takes eons to
download so you need a fast connection or a lot of patience.

This danger was apparently clear to the CDC since some time in the '90s. The
problem was discussed by the CDC, the FDA and representatives of the vaccine
industry four years ago - in February 2000, only to be ... hushed up.

Firstcoastnews reports the story.

Here is an archived copy of the article.

CDC Knew of Potential Link between Vaccines, Autism

By Melissa Ross
First Coast News

Five-year-old Ryan Anderson of Jacksonville Beach is an animated, happy
child.

But that wasn't always the case.

"His course of deterioration from a happy, developmentally appropriate child
to the problems he began to develop, started right after he received the
measles, mumps and rubella vaccine," says Ryan's father, Bruce Anderson.

Now, several therapies are underway to restore Ryan's cognitive and
behavioral development, which began to show significant impairment at age 18
months. Ryan also presents evidence of a persistent, active measles virus.

Ryan's doctor, Jeff Bradstreet of Melbourne, is a specialist in
autism-related disorders. Using clinical diagnostic testing, he has
documented a genetic defect in children that Ryan carries. That defect, says
Bradstreet, made him vulnerable to a preservative in his vaccinations.

The preservative is called thimerosal, and it contains mercury, a known
neuro-toxin. Until just a few years ago, children who received a full
schedule of vaccinations were injected with mercury in amounts far exceeding
EPA guidelines. Bradstreet says some children's bodies just can't handle the
onslaught of the toxin.

"There are children who don't detox heavy metals well.. the more mercury we
expose them to the more problems they're going to have," Bradstreet says.

The growing controversy over thimerosal has contributed to its removal from
many childhood vaccines, beginning in the late 1990's. But it is still
present in some vaccinations, including virtually all flu shots.

The Centers for Disease Control published a study last fall repudiating any
possible link between thimerosal and developmental problems like autism in
children. However, First Coast News has obtained non-published documents
that show the CDC DID have data supporting such a link-- but kept it from
the public.

Documents released through the Freedom of Information Act, detail the
transcript of a meeting held in June of 2000 between members of the CDC, the
FDA, and representatives from the vaccine industry.

The group discusses the results of a February 2000 study that finds a
significant association between exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines,
and developmental issues like autism in children.

Some of the comments--

"There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest we've
got a serious problem."

"My gut feeling? It worries me. I don't want my grandson to get a
thimerosal-containing vaccine until we know better what's going on."

"We are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits."

Finally--

"We have asked you to keep this information confidential."

And that's what happened. Three years later, the CDC published a study in
the November 2003 issue of "Pediatrics" contradicting the earlier results,
and clearing thimerosal of any link to neurological problems in children.

"I just feel pretty strongly they haven't been honest in analyzing the
problem."

So says Florida Congressman David Weldon, a physician. Weldon sent a letter
to the head of the CDC in October of 2003, charging that data was
selectively used in the "Pediatrics" study to make the earlier evidence of a
mercury-autism connection disappear. He also asked for another review of the
data. The CDC has not yet officially responded to Weldon's request.

"Where there's smoke there's fire.. and when you see people reluctant to
investigate things properly, it makes you think they really don't want to
investigate things properly," he says.

Meantime, parents like Bruce Anderson say, while they are not anti-vaccine,
they do want doctors to screen children more carefully before administering
shots, taking into account the specialized health concerns of each
individual child. Anderson also says it's imperative the government recall
any vaccines still containing thimerosal.

"I have to live with the memory of my child's cries as I held him down while
he was being vaccinated, never knowing that I was injuring him."

Bradstreet adds, "This is a very potent neurotoxin. Let's do everything we
can to reduce exposure, not justify why it's OK to give just a little."

Bradstreet, along with Congressman Weldon and other experts on the issue,
reiterated their statements on thimerosal in Washington on February 9th. The
occasion was an Institute of Medicine panel hearing information both
supporting and rejecting the theory that thimerosal is linked to rising
autism rates in children.

A spokesman for the CDC tells First Coast News that the agency plans to
undertake an objective review of the data presented at the IOM panel.

Weldon has already expressed strong skepticism with the CDC's position
however, telling First Coast News, "I don't believe the CDC can really take
an objective position on the issue. They are concerned the fears about
thimerosal might lead to parents being afraid to vaccinate their children.
But the problem isn't vaccines, it's the thimerosal in vaccines. So parents
who are concerned about this need to talk with their pediatrician, and
carefully check the product insert in each vaccination to make sure the shot
is thimerosal-free."

See also:

A two-part article by Dan Olmsted on autism in the Amish community in the
U.S. is highly interesting. It was published in The Washington Times on
April 18 and April 19, 2005.
The Age of Autism: The Amish anomaly

Red Flags Weekly: The Autism Pandemic and Relative Risk
By Daniel Hollenbeck (subscription needed)

February 2005: U.S. Representatives Dave Weldon, M.D. from Florida and
Carolyn Maloney from New York have reintroduced H.R. 881, a measure that
would eliminate mercury from vaccines.

LA Times: '91 Memo Warned of Mercury in Shots

Motherjones.com: Toxic Tipping Point
Are the CDC, the FDA, and other health agencies covering up evidence that a
mercury preservative in children's vaccines caused a rise in autism?

Mercury on the Mind - By Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD
Although they afflict widely different age groups, autism and Alzheimer's
disease share a common cause: mercury. Dr. Boyd Haley, professor and chair
of the chemistry department at the University of Kentucky, and Dr. Bernard
Rimland, founder of the Autism Research Institute, presented evidence at
this year's Doctors for Disaster Preparedness meeting that connects mercury
with these diseases.

THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP
By Russell Blaylock, M.D

Mercury and human health - Idaho Observer

Vaccine Data Leads to a Shocking Discovery

New Study from Northeastern University Suggests Link Between Vaccine
Ingredients And Autism, ADHD

CDC Vaccine Data Leads Scientists to Shocking Discovery

The MMR scandal shows a business riddled with conflicts of interest

Precipitous Increase in Autism Cases May Be Tied To Childhood Vaccines

Toxic Tipping Point - Mother Jones - Are the CDC, the FDA, and other health
agencies covering up evidence that a mercury preservative in children's
vaccines caused an epidemic of autism?

Is Mercury Toxicity an Autoimmune Disorder?

CDC, FDA Become Targets for Investigation, Says National Autism Association

Unbelieveable!! -- CDC Still Allows Mercury in Infant Flu Shots

Mercury : The Winged Messenger - Book on mercury and autism

National Autism Association Questions IOM and CDC Cover-Up -- How Far Will
They go to Protect Toxic Vaccines?

Vaccination, autism and thimerosal: Vaccine critics blast mercury report

Row over autism link to vaccines

New Columbia University Study Confirms IOM Vaccine-Autism Report is Wrong

International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology An excellent on-line
presentation of the dangers of mercury fillings in teeth

Crematoria warned over mercury

Discover Magazine - March 2005: Our Preferred Poison
A little mercury is all that humans need to do away with themselves quietly,
slowly, and surely

Red Flags Weekly: Vaccines and Immune Suppression (subscription needed)

Found on the Alternative Medicine Forum, posted there by Donna:

Bayer made Rhogam that contained 35 mcg of mercury, Bayer in 2003 Petitioned
OEHHA to take thimerosal/mercury off the list of reproductive toxins, After
parents with disabled children filed lawsuits. [The EPA limit for INGESTING
mercury is 6 mcg! Pregnant women continue to be INJECTED with 25 mcg of
mercury via the flu vaccine!] What happens to these disabled children, Some
require many different medications just to survive.

Here is OEHHA reply to Bayer.

OEHHA (Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assesment) reports;

"The scientific evidence that PMA and Thimerosal cause reproductive
toxcitity is CLEAR and VOLUMINOUS.

The evidence for its reproductive toxcitity includes severe mental
retardation or malformations in human offspring who were poisoned when their
mothers were exposed to ethylmercury or thimerosal while pregnant."

http://www.oehha.ca.gov/prop65/CRNR_notices/pdf_zip/hgbayer1.pdf

From The CancerCoverUp.com Monthly Newsletter | MAY 2005 | Volume 4, Issue 5
The Autism Epidemic: Is Organized Medicine Hiding The Truth?

Taking a shot
Rich Tucker - April 30, 2005
Where some see a crisis, others see an opportunity.

Bush Administration Knew Childhood Vaccines Cause Autism
by Evelyn J. Pringle - www.dissidentvoice.org
February 7, 2005

FDA Knew Dangers Of Thimerosal-Vaccines For 60 Years
September 02, 2005 By: Evelyn Pringle - Independent Media TV ?
Since the 1930s, mercury-based Thimerosal has been added to vaccines as a
preservative to boost drug company profits by allowing vaccine makers to
package in bulk instead of individual doses. According to newly discovered
research, which was supported by a grant from the American Medical
Association, government agencies have known for 60 years that Thimerosal was
neither safe or effective, and that it should have been removed as a
preservative in pharmaceutical products.

"For a long period mercurial compounds, such as bichloride of mercury,
headed the list of chemical which were thought to be effective in the
killing of microorganisms," it said. However, the authors basically state
that Thimerosal as a preservative is useless, "It is not highly germicidal
and especially does not possess high germicidal value in the presence of
serum and other protein mediums. The loss of antibacterial activity of
mercurials in the presence of serum proves their incompatibility with
serum."
Happy Oyster - 23 Jun 2009 03:56 GMT
>And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
>between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
>inflamation, fever, localized swelling, just to name a few of the
>minor reactions.

That is a good choice to take, compared with dying.

>If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
>government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
>vaccines?

Not all pupils sent to school are bright.

Not does the school make them bright.

That is those who claim such a nonsense.
Signature

"Wenn du eine Frau siehst, denke, es sei der Teufel!
Sie ist eine Art Hölle!"   (Papst Pius II., 1405-1464)

Mehr über christliche Lebensart: http://www.reimbibel.de

Bob Badour - 23 Jun 2009 05:36 GMT
>>And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
>>between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
>>inflamation, fever, localized swelling, just to name a few of the
>>minor reactions.
>
> That is a good choice to take, compared with dying.

I had 4 vaccinations tonight. It was a single vaccine spread over 4
sites given in rapid succession. Did they cause inflammation? Oh hell
yeah! My legs are aching something awful.

Plus I had an immune globulin injection, and that hurts a little too.

As painful as it is to me personally right now, I wholeheartedly
recommend vaccination over death.

>>If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
>>government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
>>vaccines?

Because in some very, very rare instances, vaccines can trigger an
existing neurological issue just by causing a mild fever. The US
government compensates those individuals and their families; even
though, a case of the common cold--let alone a more serious disease like
the ones vaccinated against--would almost certainly eventually cause an
even higher fever with even greater resulting injury from the condition.

They are very nice that way. But then again, they are us. The government
of the US operates by, for and of the people of the US.

<snip>
Jan Drew - 23 Jun 2009 06:20 GMT
On Jun 22, 5:50 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > >Well done! Be prepared for an attack for being so brave.
>
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
> Oh? That is news to the rest of the real world. Maybe not yours, but,
> you have never shown any connection with reality.

This link has the aactual 'minutes' to a hearing done by gov't
officials questioning witnesses...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_house_hearings&doc
id=f:91047.wais


> > And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
> > between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

>>And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
>>between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
>>vaccines?
Terry Jones - 23 Jun 2009 08:50 GMT
>Foreign DNA from monkey kidneys is not natural to the human body,
>unless of course someone in your past family tree conceived from
>practicing beastiality.  Which I doubt happened.

Except that humans and chimps have largely the same DNA

>along with combinations of
>between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies

And how many viruses were children exposed to at the same time prior
to the introduction of vaccination? - Look at the childhood mortality
statistics.

>If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
>government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
>vaccines?

Because all too often politics has little or nothing to do with
science or evidence.

And to be fair you should also ask why other equally democratic
western governments *haven't* felt the need to do so.

Point is that the regulars at alt.support.autism - mostly parents &
adult autistics - have no vested interest in whether this argument is
true or false.

What *is* of concern are the time, attention, and resources being
directed at this and other "causes" and "cures", instead of in
learning about the real needs of autistics from their own mouths. And
providing help for both adults and children based on what they really
need, and what they themselves have found useful.

We get a lot of crap from *both* "orthodox" and "alternative" - So if
you genuinely believe in this and want to persuade people, you need to
look critically at the quality of your arguments and the evidence you
offer.

Don't just repeat arguments and "facts" which you've read - Check them
out, whether it's "monkey DNA" or the number of childhood vaccinations
in the US compared to other western nations.

And remember that the US is not the whole world - this is a
multi-national group. So how well does the vaccine argument hold up in
the light of evidence from other "western medicine" countries which
have *different* vaccination regimes and formulations?

Emotion based "arguments" and repeating the "same old, same old" is
lazy posting - If you really expect to persuade people, then "do your
homework", look as critically at the arguments you're posting as you
do at those of "orthodoxy".

Terry

PS - Since you know from your own child that autism is not some
terrible thing "like cancer", I don't understand why this seems to be
such an important issue for you?
No Body - 25 Jun 2009 02:08 GMT
What? You didn't see the news reports showing that the latest research
proves that vaccines have nothing to do with autism? What, were you on a
deserted island with nemo?

On Jun 22, 2:41 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 4:12 am, Terry Jones <terryjo...@beeb.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Foreign DNA from monkey kidneys is not natural to the human body,
unless of course someone in your past family tree conceived from
practicing beastiality.  Which I doubt happened.

Then there is the mercury, the aluminum, and a long list of other
contaminates including unknown monkey viruses, like what happened with
polio and the SV40 virus, which by the way was named SV40 because it
was the 40th monkey virus found contaminating vaccinesl.

And to top it off, all these things, along with combinations of
between 2 - 8 viruses are all injected into infants bodies, causing
inflamation, fever, localized swelling, just to name a few of the
minor reactions.

If vaccines do not cause neurological issues, then why has the US
government set up a fund to pay out to those who are injured by
vaccines?
Buzzard - 23 Jun 2009 01:45 GMT
>(s9nip)
> [And for those who espouse an inflammatory model of autism, I wonder
> about the inflammatory effects of chronic infections and parasites?]

Are there any studies being done that are not
in some way paid for or influenced by those who
have already decided what the outcome shall be?
Are there URLs to articles on those studies?
Terry Jones - 23 Jun 2009 08:50 GMT
>Are there any studies being done that are not
>in some way paid for or influenced by those who
>have already decided what the outcome shall be?
>Are there URLs to articles on those studies?

That is one argument advanced for government funded science.
Unfortunately governments are susceptible to lobbying and "flavour of
the month", so there's probably no easy answer to the problem.

As I've suggested elsewhere "natural experiments" such as comparing
the situation in different countries with different vaccination
regimes could be informative. (There may be a problem with different
diagnostic criteria / practices, but as long as these remain
consistent within a country, the trends would still be informative).
Signature


Terry

D. C. Sessions - 26 Jul 2009 04:35 GMT
> (Of course we have the advantage of piped water and sewage systems,
> but there are a lot of non-waterborne diseases too).

You mean like diphtheria, which killed 10% of all children in New
York before the age of ten?

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
 
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