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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / March 2004What is an ideal diet for maintaining optimal health?
A lot of weight loss diets say to maintain protein consumption because muscle burns fat. But how much protein do we need and what is the right mix of vegies/fruit to carbs and protein? The following article states 40-80 grams of protein a day. Let's see. 1000 grams (1kg) / 40 = 25 days' (3+ weeks) protein from 1kg of meat. How many people would stick to this regime? Most people would eat 1kg of meat in less than 1 week. The development of latent "acidosis" http://www.euroamericanhealth.com/how.html "We need protein, obviously, but all we need is 40 grams a day, a training athlete may need 80 grams a day. The average American diet on the other hand contains as much as 200 grams of protein per day, that's bacon and eggs for breakfast, etc.. We all know that the "richer" we became as a civilization and more "advanced", the more meat we eat. Plato knew this in ancient Greece and toward the end of that civilization I'm sure they had all the 'modern' degenerative diseases that plague us today and, "fast foods". "This is a reason postulated for the extinction of the Mayan Indians, their skeletons are demineralized, as if they too had been soaked in excess acid. Maybe toward the end they became so rich they ate Big-Mac Hamburgers too." Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/health.htm Its interesting to see who is interested in discussing health topics, and whose only purpose is to stir up antagonisms. May the acid in your bodies dissolve your bones. Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/acidity.htm >Its interesting to see who is interested in discussing health topics, >and whose only purpose is to stir up antagonisms. Yeah, like those people with the antisemitic links on their web sites. >May the acid in your bodies dissolve your bones. Hahaha. It's always amusing to see someone like you start talking about "acidity" or any other scientific term, since you couldn't explain the scientific basis of it if your life depended on it. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >Its interesting to see who is interested in discussing health topics, > >and whose only purpose is to stir up antagonisms. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > about "acidity" or any other scientific term, since you couldn't > explain the scientific basis of it if your life depended on it. If I was waiting for you to explain anything scientific to me, I'd be waiting a long time. I mightn't know a lot, but I read around and can see that its an important but unspoken of topic. The article above The development of latent "acidosis" http://www.euroamericanhealth.com/how.html has a lot of information in it, about blood acidity. It talks about latent acidosis which is where a buildup in the body occurs over time, and which accumulates in the joints and other places. That is an important concept don't you think? And what are the implications of all this latent acidosis? The blood itself has to stay within a very narrow pH range and if it gets out of .1 either side, there is trouble. So the acid gets stored around the body and in the joints. The question is, once it gets stored around the body what are the effects and how does a person reverse it? Hmmm? Explain that if you can. Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/health.htm >> >Its interesting to see who is interested in discussing health topics, >> >and whose only purpose is to stir up antagonisms. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >If I was waiting for you to explain anything scientific to me, I'd be >waiting a long time. That's only true in the sense that you are so poorly educated that I probably wouldn't bother. You'd tune me out anyway, since you are so sure you already have all the answers. >I mightn't know a lot, but I read around and can >see that its an important but unspoken of topic. The article above [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >latent acidosis which is where a buildup in the body occurs over time, >and which accumulates in the joints and other places. Except that it doesn't. Your body is terrific at maintaining a very steady pH value, and any significant deviation is not going to have subtle results -- it's going to land you in the hospital immediately. >That is an important concept don't you think? Yes. But you missed it. >And what are the implications of all this latent acidosis? The blood >itself has to stay within a very narrow pH range and if it gets out of >.1 either side, there is trouble. So the acid gets stored around the >body and in the joints. No it doesn't, Carole. There's no place to store it. The body does not have little storage drums into which acid is poured. >The question is, once it gets stored around the body what are the >effects and how does a person reverse it? Hmmm? Explain that if you >can. I don't have to explain things that don't happen. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > Its interesting to see who is interested in discussing health topics, > and whose only purpose is to stir up antagonisms. Yes, lets discuss diet and perhaps supplements for Diabetics, a women with endometriosis pain and hypothyroidism. Lets not recommend the person read websites like Ms Clark's parasite cleanser claims. > May the acid in your bodies dissolve your bones.  SignatureKim Please note, I don't wish to get involved in any personal conflicts between the posters here. I'm simply looking for answers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > A lot of weight loss diets say to maintain protein consumption because > muscle burns fat. But how much protein do we need and what is the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > How many people would stick to this regime? Most people would eat 1kg > of meat in less than 1 week. Muscle burns fat? I cannot agree with that exclusively. The muscles can burn fat, but what about the store of sugar in the muscles stored as the black spots ( glycogen )found in the cells of the super atheletes? Sugar is the primary souce of energy for the body, that means the brain and the muscles. Fat is a secondary or tertiary source of energy. > The development of latent "acidosis" > http://www.euroamericanhealth.com/how.html > > "We need protein, obviously, but all we need is 40 grams a day, a > training athlete may need 80 grams a day. Humans can live very well on only 15 grams of amino acids daily. Humans have no need for protein. We do have a need for amino acids. A normal diet should provide about 30 grams, about one ounce, of amino acids daily. If you cannot get this from your fruits, veggies, and nuts, you are really, really, eating incorectly. The human does not have to eat the cow, the sheep, the goat, the horse, the monkey, the fish, the snake, or the family cat to get his amino acids from their proteins. The average American diet on > the other hand contains as much as 200 grams of protein per day, > that's bacon and eggs for breakfast, etc.. That is why Americans are so overweight, and so diseased from the diseases of proteinosis ( diseases caused by the over consumption of protein, including death ) and acidosis. > "This is a reason postulated for the extinction of the Mayan Indians, > their skeletons are demineralized, as if they too had been soaked in > excess acid. Maybe toward the end they became so rich they ate Big-Mac > Hamburgers too." Interesting comment. Osteoporosis, the loss of minerals in our bones, can now be show to begin at age 25. It may not be admitted yet but the data fully supports the conclusion. Perhaps Americans will go the way of the Mayans. > Carole > http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/health.htm DrC PhD Moron. Humans do not need liquids but they need water and "Humans can live very well on only 15 grams of amino acids daily. Humans have no need for protein" These people are not stupid John. > > A lot of weight loss diets say to maintain protein consumption because > > muscle burns fat. But how much protein do we need and what is the [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > DrC PhD Well I disagree on this one - how come vegans live without animal protein in their diets? Anth > Moron. Humans do not need liquids but they need water > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > > > DrC PhD Anth. not sure who your comment is directed at with so many of the trolls blocked it can be confusing. > Well I disagree on this one - how come vegans live without animal protein in > their diets? > Anth >Subject: Re: What is an ideal diet for maintaining optimal health? >From: "Gymmy Bob" NoThanx@spam.com >Date: 3/14/04 10:24 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <neednbUB3PaSvMjdRVn-uQ@golden.net> >Moron. Humans do not need liquids but they need water And here I thought water was a liquid, at least at normal room temp. Of course at -10 celcius it is a solid. At above 100 celcius it is a gas. What is with the moron crap? Were you speaking to me? >"Humans can live very well on only 15 grams of amino acids daily. Humans >have no need for protein" > >These people are not stupid John. I stand by my statement. Humans can live in health on only 15 grams of protein a day. The normal amount should be around 30 grams. Here I am talking about amino acids, not protein. When you are dealing with protein, you have to factor in how much is degraded by heat ( i.e. cooking.) and how much can be digested and absdorbed. A human can live in abosolute health on only 25 to 30 grams of amino acids daily. Proven fact. Been there. Done that. DrC PhD > > A lot of weight loss diets say to maintain protein consumption because > > muscle burns fat. But how much protein do we need and what is the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > body, that means the brain and the muscles. Fat is a secondary or > tertiary source of energy. What is meant by "muscle burns fat" is that the bigger the muscle the more capability is has to burn up any fat reserves, whereas wasted muscles burn fat more slowly. But this maybe a deceptively simple concept. The idea that a high protein diet is good, from the viewpoitn of acid residue, doesn't make it a good proposition after all. High protein diets actually lead to a store of acid in the body which has a disastrous effect. Paul Bragg (nature guru) used to say that each acid attack on the body is another nail in a person's coffin, or something to that effect. We hear a lot these days about how Western society is too well fed. Sometimes I see pictures (on TV) of people who live in third world countries who are slim, wiry and still have good muscle tone and wonder what they eat. Probably a lot of it has to do with genetics, but they probably only eat one meal a day and probably not much protein at that, yet in some ways they seem healthier than people in western society on our rich, high protein, fat, sugar etc. diets. We need to rethink what we eat, and maybe frugal is better. People eat and try to get all their vitamins and minerals, but at the same time they are creating a lot of acid in their bodies. This maybe the reason why monkeys fed on restricted diets appear to be younger than those fed as much as they can eat i.e., the acid residue may be the problem. Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/acidity.htm > > The development of latent "acidosis" > > http://www.euroamericanhealth.com/how.html [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > DrC PhD "Carole" <hubbca2003@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message > > We need to rethink what we eat, and maybe frugal is better. People eat > and try to get all their vitamins and minerals, but at the same time > they are creating a lot of acid in their bodies. This maybe the reason > why monkeys fed on restricted diets appear to be younger than those > fed as much as they can eat i.e., the acid residue may be the problem. ================== What is your opinion of the low-carb (not no-carb) diets such as Atkins? I saw on TV there are people who've been on this diet since the 1970s. They do eat some carbs in the way of vegetables and fruit but their main intake is fats and protein. All were healthy and had low cholesterol and normal BP. I read most of the article in the NYTimes that year as well. It agreed and also stated these low-carb diets are effective. Your opinion? SignatureKim "Thou seest the mote in thy brother's eye, but thou seest not the beam in thine own eye. When thou castest the beam out of thine own eye, then wilt thou see clearly to cast the mote from thy brother's eye." =============================================== I think they are not so good in the long term because with plant foods you get a lot of stuff that lowers your risks of contracting cancer and other diseases. Maybe I'm ignorant of Atkins - I understand that the diet isn't long term? Anth I think they already found great evidence to say that it's the protein in the Atkins diet which is responsible for modulating the hunger, so you eat less on Atkins and hence lose weight. > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > BP. I read most of the article in the NYTimes that year as well. It agreed > and also stated these low-carb diets are effective. Your opinion? >Subject: Re: What is an ideal diet - Atkins??? Your opinion. >From: "Anth" sickofspam@sickofspam.com >Date: 3/17/04 9:49 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <40590e2c$0$55918$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net> >I think they already found great evidence to say that it's the protein in >the Atkins diet which is responsible for modulating the hunger, so you eat >less on Atkins and hence lose weight. Cannot agree. The human being runs on sugar. Talk to any diabetic who has let his blood glucose level drop too low. One co-worker of mine would slowly slide out of his chair when he was having a problem. We always knew to force him to drink a fruit drink to get him alert again. The Akdin's diet did teach humans one important aspect of eating. Do not mix your carbs with your proteins. The sandwich, white refined bread with meat in the middle, is a sure recipie for indigestion and potential food poisoning. I doubt that the Earl of Sandwich realized this when he invented the sandwich. The Adkin's diet worked for one primary reason. The body is a sugar burning engine. Protein is not sugar and has to be converted to sugar type chemicals to fit into the body's metabolism. This is a waste of energy and pollutes the inner body with the protein residues. The body will only convert protein for energy in a STARVATION situation. This is why the Adkin's diet worked. You were putting the body into a starvation situation by giving it only veggies and protein. The body intelligence would then burn all its sugar stores, then begin to burn its fat stores IN PREFERENCE to burning protein for energy. For me, this is exactly why the Adkin's diet worked. Simulated starvation and forcing the body to burn its fat stores before converting any protein into energy. SIMPLE. UNDERSTANDABLE. BELIEVABLE. SCIENTIFIC. What more could you ask for? DrC PhD > >Subject: Re: What is an ideal diet - Atkins??? Your opinion. > >From: "Anth" sickofspam@sickofspam.com [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Cannot agree. > The human being runs on sugar. And yet there are people thriving on these low-carb diets since the 1970s. At most they may consume no more than 50 to 75 mgs of carbs a day. Talk to any diabetic who has let his blood > glucose level drop too low. One co-worker of mine would slowly slide out of > his chair when he was having a problem. We always knew to force him to drink > a fruit drink to get him alert again. We are not talking about diabetics. We're discussing the average non-diabetic obese person. > The Akdin's diet did teach humans one important aspect of eating. Do not mix > your carbs with your proteins. The sandwich, white refined bread with meat in > the middle, is a sure recipie for indigestion and potential food poisoning. I > doubt that the Earl of Sandwich realized this when he invented the sandwich Food poisonong from WHAT? > The Adkin's diet worked for one primary reason. The body is a sugar burning > engine. Protein is not sugar and has to be converted to sugar type chemicals > to fit into the body's metabolism. This is a waste of energy and pollutes the > inner body with the protein residues. The body will only convert protein for > energy in a STARVATION situation. And the person HAPPILY loses the dangerous fat stores that may end up killing them. Some of the protein taken in is converted to carbs. But the body goes after the FAT STORES for energy when carb/sugar intake declines. Read the Atkkins and low-carb websites. This diet is known to work if the person sticks to it and most who have tried it, can and do. I think we all know someone who lost a lot of weight on these low-carb diets. > This is why the Adkin's diet worked. You were putting the body into a > starvation situation by giving it only veggies and protein. Veggies have some carbs. Carbs are kept to under 20 or 30 mgs a day and the fat intake is moderate. The body > intelligence would then burn all its sugar stores, then begin to burn its fat > stores IN PREFERENCE to burning protein for energy. And the obese person starts to lose the weight. > For me, this is exactly why the Adkin's diet worked. Simulated starvation and > forcing the body to burn its fat stores before converting any protein into > energy. Beats dying to some obesity related condition. > SIMPLE. UNDERSTANDABLE. BELIEVABLE. SCIENTIFIC. What more could you ask > for? > > DrC PhD SignatureKim "Thou seest the mote in thy brother's eye, but thou seest not the beam in thine own eye. When thou castest the beam out of thine own eye, then wilt thou see clearly to cast the mote from thy brother's eye." =============================================== >Subject: Re: What is an ideal diet - Atkins??? Your opinion. >From: "Kim" aaa@bbb.com >Date: 3/18/04 3:59 AM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <o9SdnVAbzOMr-8Td4p2dnA@heartoftn >"DRCEEPHD" <drceephd@aol.com> wrote in message >> Cannot agree. >> The human being runs on sugar. > >And yet there are people thriving on these low-carb diets since the 1970s. >At most they may consume no more than 50 to 75 mgs of carbs a day. If you consider death from heart disease or cancer by age 70 to be "thriving", I cannot agree. A life free of disease until the predicted age of death at 120 is what I seek. >We always knew to force him to >drink >> a fruit drink to get him alert again. > >We are not talking about diabetics. We're discussing the average >non-diabetic obese person. I was giving an example of what happens when the blood sugar levels drop too low. Notice that it is sugar and not protein or amino acid levels that cause the problem. Not that we absorb intact protein but then dummies have a way of getting confused. > is a sure recipie for indigestion and potential food >poisoning. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Food poisonong from WHAT? > is a sure recipie for indigestion and potential food >poisoning. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Food poisonong from WHAT? Never heard of PROTEINOSIS have you? Hummmmmm. What a mauroon. > The body will only convert protein >for >> energy in a STARVATION situation. > >And the person HAPPILY loses the dangerous fat stores that may end up >killing them. Is it the fat that kills or the toxins stored in the fat cells? >Some of the protein taken in is converted to carbs. Nope, nope, nope. The biochemistry does not work that way. >But the >body goes after the FAT STORES for energy when carb/sugar intake declines. That is true. And, IN PREFERENCE to converting amino acids into fuel components which is an energy loss and a pollutant for the body. It is rather like putting diesel fuel into a gas engine. The engine might run poorly but it would pollute like hell. >This diet is known to work if the >person sticks to it This diet is know to make a healthy acidic colon alkaline. It is known to cause all sorts of colon diseases. It is known to contribute greatly to cancers due to the end products of the bacterial decay of the protein and amino acids in the colon. >Beats dying to some obesity related condition. Is no colon ( having had an ostemy ) and sh.tting in a bag your idea of a good trade off? How about your increased cancer odds? DrC PhD > >Subject: Re: What is an ideal diet - Atkins??? Your opinion. > >From: "Kim" aaa@bbb.com > >And yet there are people thriving on these low-carb diets since the 1970s. > >At most they may consume no more than 50 to 75 mgs of carbs a day. ==================================== > If you consider death from heart disease or cancer by age 70 to be "thriving", > I cannot agree. A life free of disease until the predicted age of death at 120 > is what I seek. Then go for it. I doubt you'll get there in an *OBESE* state. Thin and average weight people do not go on diets. For many people the low-carb diets are the only diets that have worked for them. They do NOT cause heart disease since these people soon have normal BP and cholesterol levels. Do some research before posting. > >We are not talking about diabetics. We're discussing the average > >non-diabetic obese person. > I was giving an example of what happens when the blood sugar levels drop too > low. Blood sugar levels do not drop "too low" in people on low-carb diets. Notice that it is sugar and not protein or amino acid levels that cause > the problem. Not that we absorb intact protein but then dummies have a way of > getting confused. Which dummies? The information is out there - utilize it. And again we're not discussing diabetics. > >Food poisonong from WHAT? > Never heard of PROTEINOSIS have you? Hummmmmm. What a mauroon. What has that got to do with a low-carb diet? This is a rare disorder generally affecting people 30 to 50 years old and is seen in men more often than in women. What an Idiot! > >And the person HAPPILY loses the dangerous fat stores that may end up > >killing them. > Is it the fat that kills or the toxins stored in the fat cells? Kills who? Are YOU obese and unable to stick to a diet that works? > >Some of the protein taken in is converted to carbs. > Nope, nope, nope. The biochemistry does not work that way. No, no, no,... yes it does because people have lived a long time on MEAT alone. Meat with no vegetation/carbs at all. Were you sleeping through your history classes? Do you realize the Eskimos lived on blubber and protein for months at a time? > >But the > >body goes after the FAT STORES for energy when carb/sugar intake declines. > That is true. And, IN PREFERENCE to converting amino acids into fuel > components which is an energy loss and a pollutant for the body. It is rather > like putting diesel fuel into a gas engine. The engine might run poorly but it > would pollute like hell. So you claim, and yet they're all losing weight, feel fine, have lower BP, normal cholesterol, better blood sugar etc. Doesn't sound like "pollution" to me. They eventually reach their normal weight and then add more carbs - you keep forgetting we're talking low-carb, not no-carb. > >This diet is known to work if the > >person sticks to it > This diet is know to make a healthy acidic colon alkaline. Url please? It is known to > cause all sorts of colon diseases. Not in those on it since the 1970s. It is known to contribute greatly to > cancers due to the end products of the bacterial decay of the protein and amino > acids in the colon. Not happening so far..... > >Beats dying to some obesity related condition. > Is no colon ( having had an ostemy ) and sh.tting in a bag your idea of a good > trade off? How about your increased cancer odds? It hasn't happened yet to these people so why project and guess? > DrC PhD - Kim "We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So primitive and naive. Not like our religion. We have burning bushes talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'" -= Paul Provenza =- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I think they are not so good in the long term because with plant foods you > get a lot of stuff that lowers your risks of contracting cancer and other > diseases. That doesn't seem to be a problem with people on these low-carb diets. Since these diets have been around since the 70s we would know if they increased the cancer rate no? And unlike like other diets people seem ABLE to both stick to them and actually lose weight. A side benefit is for those with borderline diabetes. Blood sugar levels remain low in low-carbers. > Maybe I'm ignorant of Atkins - I understand that the diet isn't long term? From what I know it is - because of anyone goes off any diet they will regain all the weight they lost. They do eat fruit and veggies but in small amounts. They can eat corn, peas and other high-carb veggies but the portions are very small. No other useless crabs are allowed such as white flour, cake, donuts, pretzels, white bread etc. > Anth > I think they already found great evidence to say that it's the protein in > the Atkins diet which is responsible for modulating the hunger, so you eat > less on Atkins and hence lose weight. I recently saw that. It's the constant rise and fall of insulin that causes constant hunger on normal diets. That doesn't happen on the low-carb diets. SignatureKim "Thou seest the mote in thy brother's eye, but thou seest not the beam in thine own eye. When thou castest the beam out of thine own eye, then wilt thou see clearly to cast the mote from thy brother's eye." =============================================== > > I think they are not so good in the long term because with plant foods you > > get a lot of stuff that lowers your risks of contracting cancer and other [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to both stick to them and actually lose weight. A side benefit is for those > with borderline diabetes. Blood sugar levels remain low in low-carbers. Not sure about this, I've not looked for studies. > > Anth > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I recently saw that. It's the constant rise and fall of insulin that causes > constant hunger on normal diets. That doesn't happen on the low-carb diets. Well I would be inclined to stay clear of high protein diets (although I think Atkins isn't high protein) I conject that much of the digestive enzymes would be used to break down the proteins and increase my risk of cancer. Interesting, have you any research on that? Anth > Kim > "Thou seest the mote in thy brother's eye, but thou seest not the beam > in thine own eye. When thou castest the beam out of thine own eye, > then wilt thou see clearly to cast the mote from thy brother's eye." > =============================================== > "Kim" <abcd@abcd.net> wrote in message > > with borderline diabetes. Blood sugar levels remain low in low-carbers. > Not sure about this, I've not looked for studies. There are many webistes if you do a Google. > > I recently saw that. It's the constant rise and fall of insulin that > causes > > constant hunger on normal diets. That doesn't happen on the low-carb > diets. > Well I would be inclined to stay clear of high protein diets (although I > think Atkins isn't high protein) It seems like it is. It appears to be like most other low-carb diets = high in protein-moderate in fats-low in carbs. > I conject that much of the digestive enzymes would be used to break down the > proteins and increase my risk of cancer. Well, that doesn't happen in societies that naturally consume low-carb/high-protein diets such as many Africans and peoples from the far Northern regions. Many of these people have very little access to carby foods. > Interesting, have you any research on that? > Anth Good grief.... the net is loaded with information on the low-carb diets. :-) SignatureKim "We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So primitive and naive. Not like our religion. We have burning bushes talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'" -= Paul Provenza =- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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