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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / November 2008

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"Alternative Health" quackery causes brain damage

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true.blue.bluey@gmail.com - 19 Nov 2008 23:28 GMT
http://www.badscience.net/2008/07/blame-everyone-but-yourselves/#more-747

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2445080/Barbara-Nash-case-highlights-lack
-of-regulation-of-nutritionists.html


http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/2380792.detox_diet_led_to_brain_damage/

Detox diet 'led to brain damage'

6:44pm Friday 4th July 2008

A woman who suffered brain damage after she was allegedly put on a
detox diet by a nutritional therapist yesterdayJuly3 won £810,000 in
compensation.

Dawn Page, 52, from Coxwell Street, Faringdon, told London's High
Court she had suffered uncontrolled vomiting and a fit after
consulting Barbara Nash, of Old London Road, Holton, near Wheatley,
about losing weight.

She said she was treated in intensive care at Swindon's now defunct
Princess Margaret Hospital following the fit in October 2001.

Mrs Page's legal team alleged Mrs Nash advised her to increase her
water intake by six pints a day - and to avoid salt. They also said
that when informed of Mrs Page's symptoms, Mrs Nash said "what was
happening was not unusual" and "was part of the detoxification
process".

Mrs Page, through her husband Geoffrey, sued Mrs Nash and today agreed
the six figure settlement with Mrs Nash's insurers.

Dennis Matthews, speaking for Mrs Nash, said she was a "privately
trained nutritionist", and emphasised she continued to deny she was in
any way to blame for what happened. The barrister said £50,000 of the
damages would be paid to Mr Page for caring for his wife.
rpautrey2 - 20 Nov 2008 00:32 GMT
NaturalNews.com
Originally published October 29 2008
http://www.naturalnews.com/024632.html

Drugs Kill More People Than Ever, Report Finds
by Ethan Huff

(NaturalNews) The 2008, first quarter report of deaths and serious
injuries associated with drug therapy was recently released by The
Institute for Safe Medication Practices, a nonprofit organization
whose stated goal is to educate the healthcare community and consumers
about safe medication practices. The findings of this report are
astounding.

According to the information gathered from data submitted to the U.S.
Food and Drug Administration during the first quarter of 2008, there
were 20,745 reported serious injuries associated with drug therapy, up
34% from the previous quarter, and up 38% from last year`s average.
Even more eye-opening than the number of serious injuries is the
number of reported deaths – 4,824 people were reported killed from
pharmaceutical drugs in the first quarter of 2008, a 2.6 fold increase
from the previous quarter. This figure represents the highest number
of patient deaths ever reported in a single quarter as a result of
drug therapy. It also accounts for more deaths than those due to
homicide during the same period.

It is important to keep in mind that these figures represent quarterly
findings. Given the upward trend in both serious injuries and deaths
over the past several years due to pharmaceutical drugs, these numbers
are expected to continue their rate of increase in quarters and years
to come.

Even if the numbers were to remain the same for the rest of 2008, the
total number of reported serious injuries would total 83,000 while the
total number of reported deaths would reach nearly 20,000. Again, this
is assuming the first quarter findings remain constant – the report
emphasizes that the trend has continued to veer upward, indicating
that future reports will most likely contain even higher numbers.

What is more striking than these numbers is the fact that they
represent only the adverse events that were reported to the FDA during
this time period. Since the reporting system is voluntary and almost
85% of the reports come from the pharmaceutical companies themselves,
it is obvious that these numbers represent only a miniscule percentage
of the total adverse events that are actually occurring. Numerous
published scientific reports on adverse event reporting accuracy,
including reports from the Journal of the American Medical Association
and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, have concluded
that no more than 10% and in some cases as little as 1-2% of adverse
events caused by drugs are even reported to the FDA. Thus, based upon
the first quarter data, the actual number of adverse events from drug
therapies in the first quarter of 2008 could be anywhere from 207,000
to over 2,000,000 with roughly 23% of these representing deaths.

While the report goes on to outline, in detail, most of the culprit
drugs, including varenicline, heparin, oxycodone, and even
acetaminophen (the active drug in Tylenol), its “bigger picture”
discovery remains blatantly obvious. Assuming a best case scenario of
only a 10% reporting rate, this report essentially spells out the fact
that at least 830,000 cases of serious injury or death occur every
year in America due to the harmful effects of pharmaceutical drugs,
with possibly a quarter of these cases resulting in death.

According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, about
2.5 million people die every year in the United States. Assuming a 10%
reporting rate of adverse events to drug therapy based on Q1, 2008
data, it can be concluded that about 8% of the deaths that occur every
year in America are due to complications with pharmaceutical drugs.
Assuming only a 1% reporting rate, that percentage increases to over
77%. Thus, it can be estimated that the number of people that die
every year in the U.S. from adverse drug effects is anywhere from
about 192,000 to almost 2,000,000.

To put these numbers into perspective, the National Center for Health
Statistics reports that in 2006, 44,572 people died in car accidents,
18,029 from homicide, and 560,102 from all forms of cancer.

It becomes abundantly clear from this report that no one knows for
sure exactly how many people are negatively affected by pharmaceutical
drugs, but that the number is quite large and is getting increasingly
larger. Even on the low end of the estimate spectrum, the data
elucidates the obviously prodigious danger of pharmaceutical drugs and
the inadequate work being performed by the FDA in protecting the
public from dangerous drugs.

Considering the scrutiny with which other industries are regulated and
controlled by the FDA, it is shocking that, with even a conservative
estimate of about 200,000 yearly deaths related to pharmaceutical
drugs, the FDA is hardly phased. The agency continues to pander to
pharmaceutical interests, including its support for the industry`s
immunity from being held accountable for these “adverse events” under
the law.

Perhaps as this type of data becomes more mainstream, the public will
forcibly hold the drug cabal accountable for the destruction it is
inflicting on American society, and the regulatory agencies
accountable for turning a blind eye to the damage being perpetrated
against the very people it is supposed to be representing and
protecting.

About the author
Ethan Huff is a freelance writer and health enthusiast who loves
exploring the vast world of natural foods and health, digging deep to
get to the truth. He runs an online health publication of his own at
http://wholesomeherald.blogspot.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 19, 5:28 pm, true.blue.bl...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://www.badscience.net/2008/07/blame-everyone-but-yourselves/#more...
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> any way to blame for what happened. The barrister said £50,000 of the
> damages would be paid to Mr Page for caring for his wife.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 20 Nov 2008 00:44 GMT
Nice rebuttal.

I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
decreasing one's salt intake could lead to a "fit" which could result
in brain damage.

A very strange occurance since increasing your water intake and
decreasing your salt intake is normal "monopoly doctor" advice.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus and poisons.
Richard Schultz - 20 Nov 2008 05:32 GMT
In misc.health.alternative drceephd@insightbb.com wrote:

: I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
: decreasing one's salt intake could lead to a "fit" which could result
: in brain damage.

For someone with a Ph. D. in chemistry, you seem to know very little
about osmosis.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"
Jan Drew - 20 Nov 2008 06:28 GMT
<snip>

Off topic
Richard Schultz - 20 Nov 2008 08:05 GMT
In misc.health.alternative Jan Drew <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

: <snip>
:
: Off topic

Do you have any plans in the near future to learn the meaning of the
term "off topic"?  Assuming that you do not, telling "Dr." Cee the
method by which ingesting too much water can seriously screw up the body
(as in kill you) is hardly off topic for the newsfroups to which these
articles are being posted.  It's not even "off topic" by your bizarre
definition of the term.  It does, however, demonstrate that you don't
know what osmosis is either.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"These are just simple farmers.  People of the land.  The common clay
of the New West.  You know -- morons."
Jan Drew - 21 Nov 2008 00:40 GMT
"Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote:

>"Dr." Cee  

Is not the subject.
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 01:50 GMT
> >"Dr." Cee
>
> Is not the subject.

"Dr." Cee is not what you snipped and called OT, tho. You snipped
Richard's comment about osmosis which is the process that results in
brain swelling in hyponatremia, which was the likely cause of death of
the person in the article.
Mark Probert - 20 Nov 2008 10:55 GMT
> In misc.health.alternative drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> For someone with a Ph. D. in chemistry, you seem to know very little
> about osmosis.

That is the inherent danger of these quack treatments. Unscientific
idiots, like Pus-For-Brains promote them.
Jan Drew - 21 Nov 2008 00:41 GMT
[   ]

Nothing but insults.
sandy.bloxs@gmail.com - 21 Nov 2008 00:43 GMT
> [   ]
>
> Nothing but insults.

Off topic.
marcia - 20 Nov 2008 06:30 GMT
On Nov 19, 7:44 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:

> Nice rebuttal.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> A very strange occurance since increasing your water intake and
> decreasing your salt intake is normal "monopoly doctor" advice.

Not to the excess some people carry it.

Ever heard of hyponatremia? That's a life-threatening condition that
occurs when excess water consumption dilutes salt in the body,
creating an electrolyte imbalance. In fact, hyponatremia is the most
*common* electrolyte imbalance, the physiology of which causes water
to shift from the vascular space to the intracellular space, resulting
in edema. Edema is well tolerated in soft tissue, but not within the
confines of the calvarium.

When serum sodium concentrates fall slowly, the brain is able to
compensate by excreting solutes into the intracellular space at a more
easily tolerated rate. When serum sodium concentrates fall rapidly,
over 24-48 hours, for instance, the brain is unable to react quickly
enough, severe cerebral swelling occurs, and the result is often
brainstem herniation. Good-bye respiration, heartbeat and blood
pressure, the main functions controlled by this portion of the brain.

Once the brainstem herniates, the patient invariably dies.

Another point: hyponatremia can also be a marker of the early phase of
STEMI (ST-elevation myocardial infarction), and is a predictor of
longterm mortality from heart failure. This often leads to greater
activation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system, higher
norepinephrine and epinephrine levels, and more severe impairment of
renal and hepatic blood flow.

All-in-all, hyponatremia can be a nasty customer, and not one
homeopaths are well equipped to recognize or manage.

What kind of dr. did you say you are?
Richard Schultz - 20 Nov 2008 08:07 GMT
In misc.health.alternative marcia <marcia12345.c@gmail.com> wrote:

: All-in-all, hyponatremia can be a nasty customer, and not one
: homeopaths are well equipped to recognize or manage.

Stick around long enough and you will discover that your detailed
explanation of hyponatremia will have no more effect on them than my
one-sentence condensation did.  And if you do it my way, you only have
to type in one sentence.

: What kind of dr. did you say you are?

He has a Ph.D. from the Intergalactic University of Mars.  When you consider
how little free water there is on Mars, his ignorance of basic concepts like
osmotic pressure and electrolyte balance becomes easier to understand.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"He comforted himself for having said this by the thought that at least
he knew it didn't mean anything."
marcia - 20 Nov 2008 14:40 GMT
> In misc.health.alternative marcia <marcia1234...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> one-sentence condensation did.  And if you do it my way, you only have
> to type in one sentence.

Oh. I took his comment too literally, then. I thought he was seriously
asking for an explanation.

> : I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
> : decreasing one's salt intake could lead to a "fit" which could result
> : in brain damage.

So, I could have just said, "Have you ever heard of hyponatremia?" and
been done with it? There aren't *any* readers to the group who would
believe a real medical explanation? That's scary.

> : What kind of dr. did you say you are?
>
> He has a Ph.D. from the Intergalactic University of Mars.  When you consider
> how little free water there is on Mars, his ignorance of basic concepts like
> osmotic pressure and electrolyte balance becomes easier to understand.

In that case, I'm going to grant myself a phony medical degree from
somewhere (jk).

It seems I have a LOT to learn about MHA and homeoquacky. :)
rpautrey2 - 20 Nov 2008 14:49 GMT
Excerpts From:
http://www.lef.org/LEFCMS/aspx/PrintVersionMagic.aspx?CmsID=111570

Death by Medicine

By Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora
Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD

Death by Medicine
By Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora
Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD

Natural medicine is under siege, as pharmaceutical company lobbyists
urge lawmakers to deprive Americans of the benefits of dietary
supplements. Drug-company front groups have launched slanderous media
campaigns to discredit the value of healthy lifestyles. The FDA
continues to interfere with those who offer natural products that
compete with prescription drugs.

These attacks against natural medicine obscure a lethal problem that
until now was buried in thousands of pages of scientific text. In
response to these baseless challenges to natural medicine, the
Nutrition Institute of America commissioned an independent review of
the quality of “government-approved” medicine. The startling findings
from this meticulous study indicate that conventional medicine is “the
leading cause of death” in the United States .

The Nutrition Institute of America is a nonprofit organization that
has sponsored independent research for the past 30 years. To support
its bold claim that conventional medicine is America 's number-one
killer, the Nutritional Institute of America mandated that every
“count” in this “indictment” of US medicine be validated by published,
peer-reviewed scientific studies.

What you are about to read is a stunning compilation of facts that
documents that those who seek to abolish consumer access to natural
therapies are misleading the public. Over 700,000 Americans die each
year at the hands of government-sanctioned medicine, while the FDA and
other government agencies pretend to protect the public by harassing
those who offer safe alternatives.

A definitive review of medical peer-reviewed journals and government
health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more
harm than good.

Each year approximately 2.2 million US hospital patients experience
adverse drug reactions (ADRs) to prescribed medications.(1) In 1995,
Dr. Richard Besser of the federal Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention (CDC) estimated the number of unnecessary antibiotics
prescribed annually for viral infections to be 20 million; in 2003,
Dr. Besser spoke in terms of tens of millions of unnecessary
antibiotics prescribed annually.(2, 2a) Approximately 7.5 million
unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed annually in
the US,(3) while approximately 8.9 million Americans are hospitalized
unnecessarily.(4)

As shown in the following table, the estimated total number of
iatrogenic deaths—that is, deaths induced inadvertently by a physician
or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures— in the US
annually is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is
itself the leading cause of death and injury in the US . By
comparison, approximately 699,697 Americans died of heart in 2001,
while 553,251 died of cancer.(5)

Table 1: Estimated Annual Mortality and Economic Cost of Medical
Intervention
Condition
Deaths
Cost
Author

Adverse Drug Reactions
106,000
$12 billion
Lazarou(1), Suh (49)

Medical error
98,000
$2 billion
IOM(6)

Bedsores
115,000
$55 billion
Xakellis(7), Barczak (8)

Infection
88,000
$5 billion
Weinstein(9), MMWR (10)

Malnutrition
108,800
-----------
Nurses Coalition(11)

Outpatients
199,000
$77 billion
Starfield(12), Weingart(112)

Unnecessary Procedures
37,136
$122 billion
HCUP(3,13)

Surgery-Related
32,000
$9 billion
AHRQ(85)

Total 783,936
$282 billion

Using Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate of 3 million(14)
multiplied by the 14% fatality rate he used in 1994(16) produces an
annual death rate of 420,000 for drug errors and medical errors
combined. Using this number instead of Lazorou's 106,000 drug errors
and the Institute of Medicine 's (IOM) estimated 98,000 annual medical
errors would add another 216,000 deaths, for a total of 999,936 deaths
annually.

Table 2: Estimated Annual Mortality and Economic Cost of Medical
Intervention
Condition
Deaths
Cost
Author

ADR/med error
420,000 $200 billion Leape(14)
Bedsores
115,000
$55 billion
Xakellis(7), Barczak (8)

Infection
88,000
$5 billion
Weinstein(9), MMWR (10)

Malnutrition
108,800
-----------
Nurses Coalition(11)

Outpatients
199,000
$77 billion
Starfield(12), Weingart(112)

Unnecessary Procedures
37,136
$122 billion
HCUP(3,13)

Surgery-Related
32,000
$9 billion
AHRQ(85)

Total 999,936

The enumerating of unnecessary medical events is very important in our
analysis. Any invasive, unnecessary medical procedure must be
considered as part of the larger iatrogenic picture. Unfortunately,
cause and effect go unmonitored. The figures on unnecessary events
represent people who are thrust into a dangerous health care system.
Each of these 16.4 million lives is being affected in ways that could
have fatal consequences. Simply entering a hospital could result in
the following:

In 16.4 million people, a 2.1% chance (affecting 186,000) of a serious
adverse drug reaction(1)
In 16.4 million people, a 5-6% chance (affecting 489,500) of acquiring
a nosocomial infection(9)
In16.4 million people, a 4-36% chance (affecting 1.78 million) of
having an iatrogenic injury (medical error and adverse drug reactions).
(16)
In 16.4 million people, a 17% chance (affecting 1.3 million) of a
procedure error.(40)
These statistics represent a one-year time span. Working with the most
conservative figures from our statistics, we project the following 10-
year death rates.

Table 3: Estimated 10-Year Death Rates from Medical Intervention
Condition
10-Year Deaths
Author

Adverse Drug Reaction 1.06 million  (1)
Medical error
0.98 million (6)
Bedsores 1.15 million (7,8)
Nosocomial Infection 0.88 million (9,10)
Malnutrition 1.09 million (11)
Outpatients 1.99 million (12, 112)
Unnecessary Procedures 371,360 (3,13)
Surgery-related  320,000 (85)
Total 7,841,360

Our estimated 10-year total of 7.8 million iatrogenic deaths is more
than all the casualties from all the wars fought by the US throughout
its entire history.

Our projected figures for unnecessary medical events occurring over a
10-year period also are dramatic.

Table 4: Estimated 10-Year Unnecessary Medical Events
Unnecessary Events
10-year Number Iatrogenic Events
Hospitalization 89 million(4) 17 million
Procedures  75 million(3) 15 million
Total 164 million

These figures show that an estimated 164 million people—more than half
of the total US population—receive unneeded medical treatment over the
course of a decade.

INTRODUCTION
Never before have the complete statistics on the multiple causes of
iatrogenesis been combined in one article. Medical science amasses
tens of thousands of papers annually, each representing a tiny
fragment of the whole picture. To look at only one piece and try to
understand the benefits and risks is like standing an inch away from
an elephant and trying to describe everything about it. You have to
step back to see the big picture, as we have done here. Each
specialty, each division of medicine keeps its own records and data on
morbidity and mortality. We have now completed the painstaking work of
reviewing thousands of studies and putting pieces of the puzzle
together.

Is American Medicine Working?
US health care spending reached $1.6 trillion in 2003, representing
14% of the nation's gross national product.(15) Considering this
enormous expenditure, we should have the best medicine in the world.
We should be preventing and reversing disease, and doing minimal harm.
Careful and objective review, however, shows we are doing the
opposite. Because of the extraordinarily narrow, technologically
driven context in which contemporary medicine examines the human
condition, we are completely missing the larger picture.

Medicine is not taking into consideration the following critically
important aspects of a healthy human organism: (a) stress and how it
adversely affects the immune system and life processes; (b)
insufficient exercise; (c) excessive caloric intake; (d) highly
processed and denatured foods grown in denatured and chemically
damaged soil; and (e) exposure to tens of thousands of environmental
toxins. Instead of minimizing these disease-causing factors, we cause
more illness through medical technology, diagnostic testing, overuse
of medical and surgical procedures, and overuse of pharmaceutical
drugs. The huge disservice of this therapeutic strategy is the result
of little effort or money being spent on preventing disease.

Underreporting of Iatrogenic Events
As few as 5% and no more than 20% of iatrogenic acts are ever reported.
(16,24,25,33,34) This implies that if medical errors were completely
and accurately reported, we would have an annual iatrogenic death toll
much higher than 783,936. In 1994, Leape said his figure of 180,000
medical mistakes resulting in death annually was equivalent to three
jumbo-jet crashes every two days.(16) Our considerably higher figure
is equivalent to six jumbo jets are falling out of the sky each day.

What we must deduce from this report is that medicine is in need of
complete and total reform—from the curriculum in medical schools to
protecting patients from excessive medical intervention. It is obvious
that we cannot change anything if we are not honest about what needs
to be changed. This report simply shows the degree to which change is
required.

We are fully aware of what stands in the way of change: powerful
pharmaceutical and medical technology companies, along with other
powerful groups with enormous vested interests in the business of
medicine. They fund medical research, support medical schools and
hospitals, and advertise in medical journals. With deep pockets, they
entice scientists and academics to support their efforts. Such funding
can sway the balance of opinion from professional caution to
uncritical acceptance of new therapies and drugs. You have only to
look at the people who make up the hospital, medical, and government
health advisory boards to see conflicts of interest. The public is
mostly unaware of these interlocking interests.

For example, a 2003 study found that nearly half of medical school
faculty who serve on institutional review boards (IRB) to advise on
clinical trial research also serve as consultants to the
pharmaceutical industry.(17) The study authors were concerned that
such representation could cause potential conflicts of interest. A
news release by Dr. Erik Campbell, the lead author, said, "Our
previous research with faculty has shown us that ties to industry can
affect scientific behavior, leading to such things as trade secrecy
and delays in publishing research. It's possible that similar
relationships with companies could affect IRB members' activities and
attitudes.”(18)

Medical Ethics and Conflict of Interest in Scientific Medicine
Jonathan Quick, director of essential drugs and medicines policy for
the World Health Organization (WHO), wrote in a recent WHO bulletin:
"If clinical trials become a commercial venture in which self-interest
overrules public interest and desire overrules science, then the
social contract which allows research on human subjects in return for
medical advances is broken."(19)

As former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine , Dr. Marcia
Angell struggled to bring greater attention to the problem of
commercializing scientific research. In her outgoing editorial
entitled “ Is Academic Medicine for Sale?” Angell said that growing
conflicts of interest are tainting science and called for stronger
restrictions on pharmaceutical stock ownership and other financial
incentives for researchers:(20) “When the boundaries between industry
and academic medicine become as blurred as they are now, the business
goals of industry influence the mission of medical schools in multiple
ways.” She did not discount the benefits of research but said a
Faustian bargain now existed between medical schools and the
pharmaceutical industry.

Angell left the New England Journal in June 2000. In June 2002, the
New England Journal of Medicine announced that it would accept
journalists who accept money from drug companies because it was too
difficult to find ones who have no ties. Another former editor of the
journal, Dr. Jerome Kassirer, said that was not the case and that
plenty of researchers are available who do not work for drug companies.
(21) According to an ABC news report, pharmaceutical companies spend
over $2 billion a year on over 314,000 events attended by doctors.

The ABC news report also noted that a survey of clinical trials
revealed that when a drug company funds a study, there is a 90% chance
that the drug will be perceived as effective whereas a non-drug-
company-funded study will show favorable results only 50% of the time.
It appears that money can't buy you love but it can buy any
"scientific" result desired.

Cynthia Crossen, a staffer for the Wall Street Journal, i n 1996
published Tainted Truth : The Manipulation of Fact in America , a book
about the widespread practice of lying with statistics.(22) Commenting
on the state of scientific research, she wrote: “The road to hell was
paved with the flood of corporate research dollars that eagerly filled
gaps left by slashed government research funding.” Her data on
financial involvement showed that in l981 the drug industry “gave”
$292 million to colleges and universities for research. By l991, this
figure had risen to $2.1 billion.

Continued on Page 3 of 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Death by Medicine
By Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora
Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD

THE FIRST IATROGENIC STUDY
Dr. Lucian L. Leape opened medicine's Pandora's box in his 1994 paper,
“Error in Medicine,” which appeared in the Journal of the American
Medical Association (JAMA).(16) He found that Schimmel reported in
1964 that 20% of hospital patients suffered iatrogenic injury, with a
20% fatality rate. In 1981 Steel reported that 36% of hospitalized
patients experienced iatrogenesis with a 25% fatality rate, and
adverse drug reactions were involved in 50% of the injuries. In 1991,
Bedell reported that 64% of acute heart attacks in one hospital were
preventable and were mostly due to adverse drug reactions.

Leape focused on the “Harvard Medical Practice Study” published in
1991, (16a) which found a 4% iatrogenic injury rate for patients, with
a 14% fatality rate, in 1984 in New York State. From the 98,609
patients injured and the 14% fatality rate, he estimated that in the
entire U.S. 180,000 people die each year partly as a result of
iatrogenic injury.

Why Leape chose to use the much lower figure of 4% injury for his
analysis remains in question. Using instead the average of the rates
found in the three studies he cites (36%, 20%, and 4%) would have
produced a 20% medical error rate. The number of iatrogenic deaths
using an average rate of injury and his 14% fatality rate would be
1,189,576.

Leape acknowledged that the literature on medical errors is sparse and
represents only the tip of the iceberg, noting that when errors are
specifically sought out, reported rates are “distressingly high.” He
cited several autopsy studies with rates as high as 35-40% of missed
diagnoses causing death. He also noted that an intensive care unit
reported an average of 1.7 errors per day per patient, and 29% of
those errors were potentially serious or fatal.

Leape calculated the error rate in the intensive care unit study.
First, he found that each patient had an average of 178
“activities” (staff/procedure/medical interactions) a day, of which
1.7 were errors, which means a 1% failure rate. This may not seem like
much, but Leape cited industry standards showing that in aviation, a
0.1% failure rate would mean two unsafe plane landings per day at
Chicago's O'Hare International Airport; in the US Postal Service, a
0.1% failure rate would mean 16,000 pieces of lost mail every hour;
and in the banking industry, a 0.1% failure rate would mean 32,000
bank checks deducted from the wrong bank account.

In trying to determine why there are so many medical errors, Leape
acknowledged the lack of reporting of medical errors. Medical errors
occur in thousands of different locations and are perceived as
isolated and unusual events. But the most important reason that the
problem of medical errors is unrecognized and growing, according to
Leape, is that doctors and nurses are unequipped to deal with human
error because of the culture of medical training and practice. Doctors
are taught that mistakes are unacceptable. Medical mistakes are
therefore viewed as a failure of character and any error equals
negligence. No one is taught what to do when medical errors do occur.
Leape cites McIntyre and Popper, who said the “infallibility model” of
medicine leads to intellectual dishonesty with a need to cover up
mistakes rather than admit them. There are no Grand Rounds on medical
errors, no sharing of failures among doctors, and no one to support
them emotionally when their error harms a patient.

Leape hoped his paper would encourage medical practitioners “to
fundamentally change the way they think about errors and why they
occur.” It has been almost a decade since this groundbreaking work,
but the mistakes continue to soar.

In 1995, a JAMA report noted, "Over a million patients are injured in
US hospitals each year, and approximately 280,000 die annually as a
result of these injuries. Therefore, the iatrogenic death rate dwarfs
the annual automobile accident mortality rate of 45,000 and accounts
for more deaths than all other accidents combined."(23)

At a 1997 press conference, Leape released a nationwide poll on
patient iatrogenesis conducted by the National Patient Safety
Foundation (NPSF), which is sponsored by the American Medical
Association (AMA). Leape is a founding member of NPSF. The survey
found that more than 100 million Americans have been affected directly
or indirectly by a medical mistake. Forty-two percent were affected
directly and 84% personally knew of someone who had experienced a
medical mistake.(14)

At this press conference, Leape updated his 1994 statistics, noting
that as of 1997, medical errors in inpatient hospital settings
nationwide could be as high as 3 million and could cost as much as
$200 billion . Leape used a 14% fatality rate to determine a medical
error death rate of 180,000 in 1994.(16) In 1997, using Leape's base
number of 3 million errors, the annual death rate could be as high as
420,000 for hospital inpatients alone.

ONLY A FRACTION OF MEDICAL ERRORS ARE REPORTED
In 1994, Leape said he was well aware that medical errors were not
being reported.(16) A study conducted in two obstetrical units in the
UK found that only about one-quarter of adverse incidents were ever
reported, to protect staff, preserve reputations, or for fear of
reprisals, including lawsuits.(24). An analysis by Wald and Shojania
found that only 1.5% of all adverse events result in an incident
report, and only 6% of adverse drug events are identified properly.
The authors learned that the American College of Surgeons estimates
that surgical incident reports routinely capture only 5-30% of adverse
events. In one study, only 20% of surgical complications resulted in
discussion at morbidity and mortality rounds.(25) From these studies,
it appears that all the statistics gathered on medical errors may
substantially underestimate the number of adverse drug and medical
therapy incidents. They also suggest that our statistics concerning
mortality resulting from medical errors may be in fact be conservative
figures.

An article in Psychiatric Times (April 2000) outlines the stakes
involved in reporting medical errors.(26) The authors found that the
public is fearful of suffering a fatal medical error, and doctors are
afraid they will be sued if they report an error. This brings up the
obvious question: who is reporting medical errors? Usually it is the
patient or the patient's surviving family. If no one notices the
error, it is never reported. Janet Heinrich, an associate director at
the U.S. General Accounting Office responsible for health financing
and public health issues, testified before a House subcommittee
hearing on medical errors that "the full magnitude of their threat to
the American public is unknown” and "gathering valid and useful
information about adverse events is extremely difficult." She
acknowledged that the fear of being blamed, and the potential for
legal liability, played key roles in the underreporting of errors. The
Psychiatric Times noted that the AMA strongly opposes mandatory
reporting of medical errors.(26) If doctors are not reporting, what
about nurses? A survey of nurses found that they also fail to report
medical mistakes for fear of retaliation.(27)

Standard medical pharmacology texts admit that relatively few doctors
ever report adverse drug reactions to the FDA.(28) The reasons range
from not knowing such a reporting system exists to fear of being sued.
(29) Yet the public depends on this tremendously flawed system of
voluntary reporting by doctors to know whether a drug or a medical
intervention is harmful.

Pharmacology texts also will tell doctors how hard it is to separate
drug side effects from disease symptoms. Treatment failure is most
often attributed to the disease and not the drug or doctor. Doctors
are warned, “Probably nowhere else in professional life are mistakes
so easily hidden, even from ourselves.”(30) It may be hard to accept,
but it is not difficult to understand why only 1 in 20 side effects is
reported to either hospital administrators or the FDA.(31, 31a)

If hospitals admitted to the actual number of errors for which they
are responsible, which is about 20 times what is reported, they would
come under intense scrutiny.(32) Jerry Phillips, associate director of
the FDA's Office of Post Marketing Drug Risk Assessment, confirms this
number. “In the broader area of adverse drug reaction data, the
250,000 reports received annually probably represent only 5% of the
actual reactions that occur.”(33) Dr. Jay Cohen, who has extensively
researched adverse drug reactions, notes that because only 5% of
adverse drug reactions are reported, there are in fact 5 million
medication reactions each year.(34)

A 2003 survey is all the more distressing because there seems to be no
improvement in error reporting, even with all the attention given to
this topic. Dr. Dorothea Wild surveyed medical residents at a
community hospital in Connecticut and found that only half were aware
that the hospital had a medical error-reporting system, and that the
vast majority did not use it at all. Dr. Wild says this does not bode
well for the future. If doctors don't learn error reporting in their
training, they will never use it. Wild adds that error reporting is
the first step in locating the gaps in the medical system and fixing
them. Not even that first step has been taken to date.(35)
marcia - 20 Nov 2008 15:20 GMT
The same thing you posted before?

Imagine how much higher the death rate would be without modern
medicine. You don't have to look very far back in history, when
virtually all treatment was homeopathic, to see that the death rate
per capita was much higher and average lifespan much shorter.

No one denies medical treatment can kill as well as save; that there
are often side-effects to pharmaceuticals; that patients can acquire
nosocomial infections from in-patient hospitalization, and so forth.
Modern medicine isn't perfect, but it's a big improvement over the
alternative.
rpautrey2 - 20 Nov 2008 21:32 GMT
Marcia,
Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
more important and factual so I am resuming
my top-posting. You definitely need to work
on your critical reading skills. I did not already
post this article in this thread. You and numerous
others in this group belong to the 'Allopathy Cult'
and probably numerous other cults. You are a
'Mind Control' victim. Your opinions and knowledge
are actually the opinions and knowledge of the
cults you belong to. Your allopathy 'loon babble'
would fit in perfectly if you would post it in your
cult groups.

Paul

> The same thing you posted before?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Modern medicine isn't perfect, but it's a big improvement over the
> alternative.
Mark Probert - 22 Nov 2008 20:54 GMT
> Paulie,
> Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> would fit in perfectly if you would post it in your
> wacko groups.

*You have no mind to control. You are a top posting bot that parfs out
whatever is pre-recorded.

> Marcia,
> Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> would fit in perfectly if you would post it in your
> cult groups.
Jan Drew - 23 Nov 2008 01:45 GMT
> Paulie,
> Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> would fit in perfectly if you would post it in your
> wacko groups.

> Marcia,
> Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> would fit in perfectly if you would post it in your
> cult groups.
rpautrey2 - 23 Nov 2008 03:17 GMT
> > Paulie,
> > Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > would fit in perfectly if you would post it in your
> > wacko groups.

MP,
Your editing of my post/words is a really sleazy thing to do.
But of course, you do have 'Casey Anthony Syndrome'.
I can see why you were disbarred. You and Marcia need
to grow up. You're becoming more childish everyday.
You and Marcia are obviously a sociopaths and definitely
need some type of help.

Paul

> > Paulie,
> > Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 23 Nov 2008 17:49 GMT
> Marcia,
> Nine times out of ten my responses/posts are
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Paul

Trust me on this one, I believe there is hope for her.

Citizen Jimserac
JOHN - 20 Nov 2008 22:22 GMT
> The same thing you posted before?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Modern medicine isn't perfect, but it's a big improvement over the
> alternative.

LOL!  Leading cause of death in first world.

Modern meds only drug that cures anything is antibiotics and vitamin C does
the same with out any side effects
true.blue.bluey@gmail.com - 20 Nov 2008 22:39 GMT
> > The same thing you posted before?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Modern meds only drug that cures anything is antibiotics and vitamin C does
> the same with out any side effects

Ah, "Vitamin C cures...", eh? And your published data to support this
is....where exactly?

What amazes me about these fruit loops is that they are sceptical
about medical advice (which is excellent - science thrives on
scepticism), but they swallow every bullshit bit of quackery without
any scepticism whatsoever.

I first became aware of Homeopathy just a few years ago when my wife
brought home some sort of homeopathic "medicine" - I read the prattle
on the bottle and was immediately fascinated that it was even legal
for a pharmacy to sell something which was so obviously a mis-labelled
placebo.
Then I borrowed a book from the library which earnestly explained all
this 18th-century nonsense about "like cures like" and "proving" and
then all this dilution "until there is less than 1 molecule of active
ingredient"...how could anybody read that particular phrase and not
realise that Homeopathy is utter nonsense?
Jan Drew - 21 Nov 2008 00:34 GMT
*Yeah - the indons really missed a chance to give those c.nts a taste
of their own medicine.*
---------------------------------------------

Nuff said.
sandy.bloxs@gmail.com - 21 Nov 2008 00:42 GMT
> *Yeah - the indons really missed a chance to give those c.nts a taste
> of their own medicine.*
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Nuff said.

Off topic.
JOHN - 21 Nov 2008 22:43 GMT
> Ah, "Vitamin C cures...", eh? And your published data to support this
> is....where exactly?

1,200 peer review citations collated by Dr Levy http://whale.to/a/levy4.html

chew on that a.shole
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 23:14 GMT
> <true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> chew on that a.shole

Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?
MothWrangler - 21 Nov 2008 23:46 GMT
>><true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?

Well, goodness, Marcia, I guess you haven't been reading MHA long enough
to know the answer to that.

The articles aren't published in PubMed because there's a world-wide
conspiracy involving science-based medicine and pharmaceutical companies
that supresses any information which would attest to the efficacy of
alternative treatments of any kind.

And, yet, despite this vast international conspiracy that keeps all of
this information super-secret, somehow, many of the pro-alt posters on
MHA seem to know a great deal about these proven alternative treatments.

Signature

Proud member since 2007, WWWSC #1
Ann/Emma Anne #4

marcia - 21 Nov 2008 23:49 GMT
> >><true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> this information super-secret, somehow, many of the pro-alt posters on
> MHA seem to know a great deal about these proven alternative treatments.

LOL. Is this another post about osmosis?
D. C. Sessions - 22 Nov 2008 03:30 GMT
>> >><true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> LOL. Is this another post about osmosis?

That's not a rhetorical question, is it?

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
t - 23 Nov 2008 00:09 GMT
Awwww you two are sooooo cute. Ignorant , but cute.

>> >><true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> LOL. Is this another post about osmosis?
rpautrey2 - 22 Nov 2008 00:16 GMT
> Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?

Marcia,
Are you really so lacking,
that you don't know?
Give Me A Break?

Paul

> > <true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?
marcia - 22 Nov 2008 00:41 GMT
> > Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Paul

Pssst. Is it because of The Conspiracy?

There must be SOME logical reason none of those 1,200 "peer reviewed"
papers written by an M.D. appear on PubMed. Can you explain why one of
Dr. Levy's papers on dental amalgams was allowed to slip through? Did
QuackWatch screw up?

And why was Mark Thorson seen running backward through a California
train station? The world may never know.
rpautrey2 - 22 Nov 2008 01:06 GMT
> Pssst. Is it because of The Conspiracy?

I never said anything about a conspiracy.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Vitamin C can't be patented.
Money for indepth studies!

I do not agree that vitamin c can cure
all of the diseases listed at Whale.

There are surely numerous variables.

It absolutely cures scurvy.

There are many vitamin c papers at Pubmed!

> > > Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> And why was Mark Thorson seen running backward through a California
> train station? The world may never know.
marcia - 22 Nov 2008 01:21 GMT
> > Pssst. Is it because of The Conspiracy?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> There are many vitamin c papers at Pubmed!

Exactly.
Mark Probert - 22 Nov 2008 16:37 GMT
> > Pssst. Is it because of The Conspiracy?
>
> I never said anything about a conspiracy.
> Don't put words in my mouth.
> Vitamin C can't be patented.
> Money for indepth studies!

Have you ever heard of NCCAM? They are a government agency, part of
the NIH, which doles out money for studies of alternative treatments,
even those where no patent is applicable. Why are the VitCers applying
for those buks? Hmmm?

As for the lack of patentability, that has not stopped some of your
heroes from seeking to patent the use of Lupron, which they do not
hold the patent to, in the treatment of Autism. In case you do not
recall, they are the Geiers.
rpautrey2 - 23 Nov 2008 04:14 GMT
> Have you ever heard of NCCAM? They are a government agency, part of
> the NIH, which doles out money for studies of alternative treatments,
> even those where no patent is applicable.

MP,
On average, how much money do the pharmaceutical
companies spend on each drug put on the market?
$1.2 Billion!

How much is the NCCAM Funding?
FY 1992: $2.0 million!
FY 2008: $121.5 million!

The links are below.

How many indepth studies can NCCAM do?
None!

Paul

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Average Cost to Develop a New Biotechnology Product Is $1.2 Billion
http://csdd.tufts.edu/NewsEvents/NewsArticle.asp?newsid=69

BOSTON – Nov. 9, 2006 – The Tufts Center for the Study of Drug
Development today announced it has developed the first comprehensive
estimate of the average cost of developing a new biotechnology
product, and pegged it at $1.2 billion.

Tufts CSDD said the $1.2 billion estimate reflects the costs of drugs
that fail in testing and the time costs associated with bringing a new
biopharmaceutical to market. Of this amount, capitalized out-of-pocket
preclinical cost totaled $615 million, while similar clinical period
cost totaled $626 million.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NCCAM Funding: Appropriations History
http://nccam.nih.gov/about/appropriations/index.htm

Congress established the Office of Alternative Medicine in 1992 and
the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine in
1999. Funding appropriated for each fiscal year is listed below.
National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine
FY 2008: $121.5 million
FY 2007: $121.6 million
FY 2006: $122.7 million
FY 2005: $123.1 million
FY 2004: $117.7 million
FY 2003: $114.1 million
FY 2002: $104.6 million
FY 2001: $89.2 million
FY 2000: $68.7 million
FY 1999: $50.0 million
Office of Alternative Medicine
FY 1998: $19.5 million
FY 1997: $12.0 million
FY 1996: $7.7 million
FY 1995: $5.4 million
FY 1994: $3.4 million
FY 1993: $2.0 million
FY 1992: $2.0 million

> > > Pssst. Is it because of The Conspiracy?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> hold the patent to, in the treatment of Autism. In case you do not
> recall, they are the Geiers.
Richard Schultz - 23 Nov 2008 08:13 GMT
In misc.health.alternative Mark Probert <mark.probert@gmail.com> wrote:

: As for the lack of patentability, that has not stopped some of your
: heroes from seeking to patent the use of Lupron, which they do not
: hold the patent to, in the treatment of Autism. In case you do not
: recall, they are the Geiers.

I don't know the details of this particular case, but if you find a
new use for a known pharmaceutical, the new use can be patented (under
certain circumstances).

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
D. C. Sessions - 23 Nov 2008 13:29 GMT
> I don't know the details of this particular case, but if you find a
> new use for a known pharmaceutical, the new use can be patented (under
> certain circumstances).

In light of the recent /Bilski/ decision, that's not at all clear.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
JOHN - 22 Nov 2008 21:59 GMT
>> <true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?

go figure http://whale.to/v/jom.html
t - 23 Nov 2008 00:05 GMT
Perhaps because Pub Med is written by bought and paid for shills?
>> <true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Yet not a single one of those articles appears on PubMed. Why is that?
Blinky Bill - 21 Nov 2008 23:55 GMT
>> Ah, "Vitamin C cures...", eh? And your published data to support this
>> is....where exactly?
>
> 1,200 peer review citations collated by Dr Levy
> http://whale.to/a/levy4.html

The source you cite doesn't claim to have 1200 peer reviewed articles that
support the efficacy of Vitamin C. In fact it disputes the relevance of the
peer review process. Perhaps you should read it before you cite it.

> chew on that a.shole

I suggest you also find an a.shole to chew on.
Mark Probert - 22 Nov 2008 16:40 GMT
> > <true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:0a41de52-65a6-46c1-921b-a6c1bb685e66@d10g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> support the efficacy of Vitamin C. In fact it disputes the relevance of the
> peer review process. Perhaps you should read it before you cite it.

Hey, Binky, wanna really laugh? John is the autor of the site that he
mis-cited.

On the open end stupid scale, that rates a 150.

> > chew on that a.shole
>
> I suggest you also find an a.shole to chew on.
Blinky Bill - 23 Nov 2008 00:21 GMT
>> > <true.blue.bl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:0a41de52-65a6-46c1-921b-a6c1bb685e66@d10g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> the
>> peer review process. Perhaps you should read it before you cite it.

>Hey, Binky, wanna really laugh? John is the autor of the site that he
>mis-cited.

>On the open end stupid scale, that rates a 150.

Full scale deflection on the loon-o-meter - needle hard up against the
stop-pin.
Mark Probert - 24 Nov 2008 11:19 GMT
> >> "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Whale.to is the internet's largest suppository of mis-information
rpautrey2 - 29 Nov 2008 06:06 GMT
Casey Anthony,

Wrong!

You are the internet's largest suppository of disinformation!

Paul

> > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 30 Nov 2008 04:08 GMT
> Casey Anthony,
>
> Wrong!
>
> You are the internet's largest suppository of disinformation!

You cannot even be original. How sad for you.

> Paul
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 23 Nov 2008 18:12 GMT
> I first became aware ofHomeopathyjust a few years ago when my wife
> brought home some sort of homeopathic "medicine" - I read the prattle
> on the bottle and was immediately fascinated that it was even legal
> for a pharmacy to sell something which was so obviously a mis-labelled
> placebo.

Did you say "obviously a mis-labeled placebo"???

Are you aware that no research exists as to what exactly
a placebo is?

Are you aware that a highly regarded meta analysis of Homeopathy that
appeared in the Lancet in 2005 has been completely refuted in
two recent articles, one of them appearing in the Journal of Clinical
Epidemeology?

Are you aware of numerous research involving double blinded placebo
controlled randomized
tests which, for some conditions, clearly indicate Homeopathy works
and works
well above placebo?

> Then I borrowed a book from the library which earnestly explained all
> this 18th-century nonsense about "like cures like" and "proving" and
> then all this dilution "until there is less than 1 molecule of active
> ingredient"...how could anybody read that particular phrase and not
> realise thatHomeopathyis utter nonsense?

Wow!  One book, eh?   Are you aware of the experiments of M. Ennis
regarding
the stimulation of biological activity (release of histamine by
basophil cells)
by high dilution substances which no longer contain any atoms of the
stimulant?

You're right about there not being any acceptable theory of how
Homeopathy might
work, but there is NO DOUBT, that it DOES WORK for SOME conditions,
and work well.
That's not to mention that the research for Homeopathy is but a
FRACTION of what
the big pharma companies have and almost every research report I read
ends with "more research needed".

There are people who were given up for DEAD by standard medicine
that are alive or whose lives were saved by Homeopathy.

It is just that simple and there's no wiggling out of it, calling it
quackery
or any other bit of innuendo.  You can repeat yourself till your blue
in
the face and those people that were saved - nothing is going to change
that.

Now you can ADMIT that there might be some sort of Homeopathic
curative effect
based on unknown causes, decide that there is no effect, or claim that
there is a Homeopathic effect
but it is actually placebo.   Either way, there a LOT of dedicated
SCIENTISTS working on it,
they are not quacks and some of them are probably risking their
careers to do it.

Here's a link just in case you get in the mood to stop your
unmitigated stupidity
of repetition that it's all nonsense and actually want to learn
something of what it is all about:

It's from the blog of an MD who became a practicing Homeopathic
physician
and he explains why, what it's all about.   Be sure to read the
comments at the
end from the sceptical math teacher who shuts off his thinking ability
as soon as the no molecules in the remedy fact is reached.  Be sure to
read
The Homeopaths response.

http://heroesnotzombies.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/why-homeopathy-and-what-is-it-a
nyway/


Good luck in you learning.

Citizen Jimserac
henry.peregrine.lawson@gmail.com - 30 Nov 2008 06:57 GMT
> > I first became aware ofHomeopathyjust a few years ago when my wife
> > brought home some sort of homeopathic "medicine" - I read the prattle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Are you aware that no research exists as to what exactly
> a placebo is?

Is that a trick question? Any primary schoolchild can tell you what a
placebo is.

> Are you aware that a highly regarded meta analysis of Homeopathy that
> appeared in the Lancet in 2005 has been completely refuted in
> two recent articles, one of them appearing in the Journal of Clinical
> Epidemeology?

References, please? "Something I just pulled out of my arse, 2008"
doesn't count.

> Are you aware of numerous research involving double blinded placebo
> controlled randomized
> tests which, for some conditions, clearly indicate Homeopathy works
> and works
> well above placebo?

No, I'm not, and nor is any peer-reviewed publication aware of any
such thing, which is clearly a deluded fantasy.

> Are you aware of the experiments of M. Ennis
> regarding
> the stimulation of biological activity (release of histamine by
> basophil cells)
> by high dilution substances which no longer contain any atoms of the
> stimulant?

Utter gibberish. 19th Century quackery.

> You're right about there not being any acceptable theory of how
> Homeopathy might
> work,

That's a nice admission - you cannot give us any rational explanation
for Homeopathy. We are all agreed then.

> but there is NO DOUBT, that it DOES WORK for SOME conditions,
> and work well.

SO get in your lab and prove it.

Nobody else has managed to prove it yet, for reasons that are obvious
to anybody who understands even basic chemistry.
t - 30 Nov 2008 13:41 GMT
henry, you really should check your assumptions before posting. You are
wrong.

Citizen Jimserac wrote:

> > I first became aware ofHomeopathyjust a few years ago when my wife
> > brought home some sort of homeopathic "medicine" - I read the prattle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Are you aware that no research exists as to what exactly
> a placebo is?

Is that a trick question? Any primary schoolchild can tell you what a
placebo is.

> Are you aware that a highly regarded meta analysis of Homeopathy that
> appeared in the Lancet in 2005 has been completely refuted in
> two recent articles, one of them appearing in the Journal of Clinical
> Epidemeology?

References, please? "Something I just pulled out of my arse, 2008"
doesn't count.

> Are you aware of numerous research involving double blinded placebo
> controlled randomized
> tests which, for some conditions, clearly indicate Homeopathy works
> and works
> well above placebo?

No, I'm not, and nor is any peer-reviewed publication aware of any
such thing, which is clearly a deluded fantasy.

> Are you aware of the experiments of M. Ennis
> regarding
> the stimulation of biological activity (release of histamine by
> basophil cells)
> by high dilution substances which no longer contain any atoms of the
> stimulant?

Utter gibberish. 19th Century quackery.

> You're right about there not being any acceptable theory of how
> Homeopathy might
> work,

That's a nice admission - you cannot give us any rational explanation
for Homeopathy. We are all agreed then.

> but there is NO DOUBT, that it DOES WORK for SOME conditions,
> and work well.

SO get in your lab and prove it.

Nobody else has managed to prove it yet, for reasons that are obvious
to anybody who understands even basic chemistry.
henry.peregrine.lawson@gmail.com - 30 Nov 2008 19:15 GMT
> henry, you really should check your assumptions before posting. You are
> wrong.

I see you can't offer any facts in support of Homeopathy.

> Citizen Jimserac wrote:

> > Are you aware that no research exists as to what exactly
> > a placebo is?
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Nobody else has managed to prove it yet, for reasons that are obvious
> to anybody who understands even basic chemistry.
Richard Schultz - 20 Nov 2008 15:24 GMT
In misc.health.alternative marcia <marcia12345.c@gmail.com> wrote:

: Oh. I took his comment too literally, then. I thought he was seriously
: asking for an explanation.

The Great And Powerful Oz (excuse me, Cee) doesn't ask for explanations --
he gives them.

:> : I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
:> : decreasing one's salt intake could lead to a "fit" which could result
:> : in brain damage.

: So, I could have just said, "Have you ever heard of hyponatremia?" and
: been done with it? There aren't *any* readers to the group who would
: believe a real medical explanation? That's scary.

The theory behind giving actual explanations is that there is some number
of lurkers who would appreciate them.  It's a judgment call.  In the heyday
of usenet, they used to estimate that there were ten lurkers for every
poster.  I seriously doubt that the ratio is anything close to that nowadays.

:> : What kind of dr. did you say you are?

:> He has a Ph.D. from the Intergalactic University of Mars.  When you consider
:> how little free water there is on Mars, his ignorance of basic concepts like
:> osmotic pressure and electrolyte balance becomes easier to understand.
: In that case, I'm going to grant myself a phony medical degree from
: somewhere (jk).

"Dr." Cee is very insistent that he doesn't have a medical degree.  He has
a Ph. D. and a DNH from the aforementioned institute of higher learning
(Rumors that what he got from them was a "DNR" probably got started from
the evidence that he presents that he is brain-dead.)

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"French bread makes very good skis"
Jan Drew - 21 Nov 2008 00:14 GMT
[     ]

Nothing but insults.
Jan Drew - 21 Nov 2008 00:10 GMT
[    ]

Diversions.  Off topic.
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 01:53 GMT
> [    ]
>
> Diversions.  Off topic.

I have NO CLUE which post you're responding to,
making yours the most superfluous post in the thread.

Off topic.
Peter Bowditch - 21 Nov 2008 21:14 GMT
>> [    ]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Off topic.

It's obvious. The topic is related to hyponatremia, and therefore
linked to osmosis. This is MHA. These two statements lead to the
following:

1) The words "hyponatremia" and "osmosis" do not appear in the title,
therefore they are off-topic under the rules of JanTalk(tm).

2) The words "hyponatremia" and "osmosis" have precise scientific
meaning and therefore may be beyond the comprehension of many people
who read MHA, even those with PhDs from foreign planets.

3) This is MHA, where facts are per se and ipso facto off-topic. (I
apologise to Jan for the Popish Latin.)

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

marcia - 21 Nov 2008 23:04 GMT
> >> [    ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> 3) This is MHA, where facts are per se and ipso facto off-topic. (I
> apologise to Jan for the Popish Latin.)

Heh. I was thinking it was off-topic because the words "hyponatremia"
and "osmosis" weren't in Jan's vocabulary which makes them de facto
insults, especially if directed at Alties.
D. C. Sessions - 21 Nov 2008 03:35 GMT
> So, I could have just said, "Have you ever heard of hyponatremia?" and
> been done with it? There aren't any readers to the group who would
> believe a real medical explanation? That's scary.

Lots of us -- but we've all heard of hyponatremia, too.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 13:06 GMT
> > So, I could have just said, "Have you ever heard of hyponatremia?" and
> > been done with it? There aren't any readers to the group who would
> > believe a real medical explanation? That's scary.
>
> Lots of us -- but we've all heard of hyponatremia, too.

Oh, sorry, I meant among the homeopathological members of the group.
D. C. Sessions - 21 Nov 2008 13:48 GMT
>> > So, I could have just said, "Have you ever heard of hyponatremia?" and
>> > been done with it? There aren't any readers to the group who would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Oh, sorry, I meant among the homeopathological members of the group.

They're pretty much into the "anything science says must be false"
party.

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
Jan Drew - 21 Nov 2008 00:09 GMT
> He has a Ph.D

Off topic.
true.blue.bluey@gmail.com - 21 Nov 2008 00:30 GMT
>  > He has a Ph.D
>
> Off topic.

Off her tree
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 16:29 GMT
>  > He has a Ph.D
>
> Off topic.

Wrong. Goes to credibility.

Original post On Topic.
D. C. Sessions - 21 Nov 2008 13:49 GMT
> I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
> decreasing one's salt intake could lead to a "fit" which could result
> in brain damage.

Translation: "I utterly refuse to believe it and don't want to
be bothered with facts."

| The brighter the stupid burns, the more |
| chance that someone will see the light. |
+- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> -+
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 14:20 GMT
> drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Translation: "I utterly refuse to believe it and don't want to
> be bothered with facts."

I noticed he didn't return to refute the facts, tho, which would have
at least given me something to laugh at.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 21 Nov 2008 20:41 GMT
> > drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > > I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I noticed he didn't return to refute the facts, tho, which would have
> at least given me something to laugh at.

Drinking adequate water is normal advice for health.  The more you
sweat, the more you need.  Check your pee.  If it is dark, you are
dehydrated.  You can die from dehydration just as easily as over
hydration.  As anyone in the desert knows.

As far as salt, it is standard advice to cut down as it is supposed to
be related to high blood pressure and heart disease.  Do allopathic
monopoly doctors still advise patients to go on a "salt free dietary",
yes or no?  Of course, you cannot, since salt is such a large
proportion of processed foods.

You could go to "low sodium" salt which is nothing more than less
sodium and more potassium as potassum chloride, which is even more
toxic than the sodium chloride.

An excess of anything can be fatal, even water...or salt.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
marcia - 21 Nov 2008 22:52 GMT
On Nov 21, 3:41 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:

> > > drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > > > I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> sodium and more potassium as potassum chloride, which is even more
> toxic than the sodium chloride.

Basic physiology: water is NEVER excreted out of the organism by
active transport. Water is excreted by either a difference in
HYDROSTATIC (water) pressure or a difference in OSMOTIC pressure
across a membrane. Water FOLLOWS actively transported solutes (salts
and sugars, etc.) by OSMOSIS. Remember what Richard wrote??????

Excess TBW (total body water) relative to solute [in this case Na
(sodium)] = hyponatremia

Hyponatremia > severe edema > high intracranial pressure (which may
cause seizure) > brainstem herniation > death

Important stuff to know, if you're going to play the role of
healthcare provider, dontcha think?

> An excess of anything can be fatal, even water...or salt.

If you acknowledge that, then why did you comment:

"I really have to wonder how increasing your water intake and
decreasing one's salt intake could lead to a "fit" which could result
in brain damage."

I'm really curious, because all the indicators (treatment, signs,
symptoms) should lead you to think of hyponatremia. This obviously
occurred to people who believe in conventional medicine -- or at least
conventional anatomy & physiology.
Jan Drew - 22 Nov 2008 04:15 GMT
<drceephd@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:52f31c31-e39a-4355-a839-10df2c4167ad@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 21, 8:49 am, "D. C. Sessions" <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I noticed he didn't return to refute the facts, tho, which would have
> at least given me something to laugh at.

Drinking adequate water is normal advice for health.  The more you
sweat, the more you need.  Check your pee.  If it is dark, you are
dehydrated.  You can die from dehydration just as easily as over
hydration.  As anyone in the desert knows.

As far as salt, it is standard advice to cut down as it is supposed to
be related to high blood pressure and heart disease.  Do allopathic
monopoly doctors still advise patients to go on a "salt free dietary",
yes or no?  Of course, you cannot, since salt is such a large
proportion of processed foods.

You could go to "low sodium" salt which is nothing more than less
sodium and more potassium as potassum chloride, which is even more
toxic than the sodium chloride.

An excess of anything can be fatal, even water...or salt.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
marcia - 22 Nov 2008 04:22 GMT
> <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message

<snip>

Unauthorized repost.

Do you think Dr.Cee is too stupid to answer for himself? How insulting
you are, Jan!
rpautrey2 - 22 Nov 2008 15:32 GMT
Marcia,

Grow Up!

Paul

> On Nov 21, 11:15 pm, "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Do you think Dr.Cee is too stupid to answer for himself? How insulting
> you are, Jan!
marcia - 22 Nov 2008 17:10 GMT
> Marcia,
>
> Grow Up!
>
> Paul

You need to give that advice to your pal, Jan. And you need to read
your own posts. You're not exactly the paragon of maturity, Paul.

Out of curiosity, does the H in MHA stand for Hypocrite?
true.blue.bluey@gmail.com - 20 Nov 2008 06:45 GMT
> According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, about
> 2.5 million people die every year in the United States. Assuming a 10%
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> every year in the U.S. from adverse drug effects is anywhere from
> about 192,000 to almost 2,000,000.

What a load of utter gibberish.

What does "Assuming only a 1% reporting rate" me