Medical Forum / General / Alternative / March 2004
MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS
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john - 03 Mar 2004 21:23 GMT PRIVATE EYE 5 March - 18 March 2004 MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS The vilification of Dr Andrew Wakefield in recent days has been a side show to the important issue of whether the mumps, measles, and rubella triple vaccine (MMR) poses a risk to a small sub set of children. But the attacks have served a purpose. They have highlighted the need to preserve independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another for the government and drug companies. For example, one leading health official responsible for immunisation has been working as an expert for the three defendant drug companies in the UK MMR court case since July 2002. Yet as far as the Eye can ascertain, she has never declared that potential ''conflict'' on any of her research papers. Dr Elizabeth Miller, head of immunisation at the government''s Health Protection Agency (HPA), last year alone published three papers in the Archives of Disease in Childhood directly related to the MMR controversy. One suggested that the combined triple live virus does not overload the immune system, so there is no need for single vaccines. Two others suggested that parents have been more likely to attribute their children's autism to MMR since 1998, when Dr Wakefield and his team at the Royal Free hospital in north London published their controversial paper. Nowhere on Dr Miller's papers does she declare that she is also an expert witness for the drug companies GlaxoSmithKline, Aventis Pasteur and Merck. Moreover, the Eye has begun trawling through scientific and medical journals to examine papers published over the last two years by other defendant drug company experts. So far we have not found a single declaration on any paper that the author also acts as an expert for the defendant drug companies - even though at least two of the experts (Dr Diane Griffin, an American, and Professor Volker ter Meulen, a German), have produced research papers directly associated with vaccination. Unlike in the case of Dr Wakefield, there have been no screaming headlines attacking their credibility or honesty; no demands for an inquiry by the General Medical Council; no snipes at their ''fatally flawed'' research. Instead, such authors continue to enjoy the support of government and big business. By contrast, Dr Wakefield only has the support of harrassed parents who believe their children were damaged by MMR, and, until recently, the impoverished Legal Services Commission - hardly powerful or influential. Dr Miller maintains that neither she nor her department was paid by the three pharmaceutical companies for the detailed and lengthy report she submitted on their behalf to the court last June. She prepared their evidence in her own time, her department says, and did not declare it on any papers because there was no financial interest. Nevertheless, it is known that money from those companies finds its way into the agency, formerly the Public Health Laboratory Service, through other research channels. In a recent annual report, Dr Miller listed five ''non-personal'' interests - ie payments which benefited her department rather than herself. Two of the companies featured were MMR defendants. The rules on conflict are weak, open to interpretation and generally not enforced - so should any criticism not be dished out in equal measure? As one leading journal states ''examples of potentially conflicting interests that should be disclosed include relationships that might detract from an author's objectivity in presentation of study results and interests whose value would be enhanced by the results presented.'' How can Sir Liam Donaldson, chief medical officer, and his deputy responsible for immunisation, Dr David Salisbury, justify their attacks on Dr Wakefield for non-disclosure of an interest when their own staff appear equally compromised? No doubt Dr Miller sought clearance before agreeing to act for the defendant drug companies. But every time she now opens her mouth the question arises: Is she speaking from the ''impartial ''view of the health department, open to all new research that comes to its attention; or for that of the defendant drug companies? As Eye readers will recall, Dr Miller also conducted the first ever trial of MMR among 10,000 children before its introduction in the UK nationwide. It is clear the medical establishment and ministers had been waiting for an opportunity to attempt to discredit Dr Wakefield. Thus they seized on the Sunday Times's resurrection of a debate about conflict which emerged in the Lancet six years ago when Dr Wakefield published his controversial 1998 study. Shortly after publication the Lancet carried a letter from Dr Wakefield on behalf of all the authors in response to suggestions that there may have been ''litigation bias'' in their paper. It said that Dr Wakefield had agreed quite separately to evaluate a small number of children on behalf of the Legal Aid Board. ''These children have all been seen expressly on the basis that they were referred through the normal channels (eg. GP, child psychiatrist or community paediatritican) on the merits of their symptoms.'' Nothing about that ''conflict'' has changed but Lancet editor Richard Horton seemed to panic in the face of more serious - and completely unsubstantiated - allegations from the Sunday Times about subjecting the children to invasive procedures without ethical approval and questions about the Lancet's role in the affair - allegations the newspaper was forced to ditch. Interestingly, Horton's condemnation of the Royal Free paper as ''fatally flawed'' ( which gave oxygen to the Sunday Times ''scoop'') was dropped by the time the Lancet published its statement about the affair the following week. It stated that it was ''regretful'' that the Lancet had not been made aware that the parallel legal aid had not been disclosed as it should have been '' because it would have been material to our decision-making about the paper's suitability, credibility and validity for publication''. It did not withdraw the paper or say it was fatally damaged. Of course the issue of potential conflicts of interest - whether by Dr Wakefield or those acting as experts for the defendant drug companies - only flags up the possibility of research flawed by bias. Before a study can be ''fatally flawed'', as health chiefs maintain Dr Wakefield's is, the research itself must be shown to be faulty. Aside from the fact that even Horton accepts that the Royal Free team identified a new syndrome suffered by children with gut disease and autism ( something so scientifically and medically significant, one might think it worthy of investment and further investigation), that original paper is now the equivalent of scientific chip wrappings. Science has moved on; and the Royal Free team has published more papers detailing the unique pattern of disease in these children's guts. In both the UK and the US, meanwhile, measles virus, some of it vaccine strain, has now been found at the site of inflammation in the guts, in the blood and in the spinal fluid of some autistic children but not in ''normal'' children. Separate studies at Utah State University have found that some autistic children have auto-antibodies which are attacking the protein sheath that protects the nerve and brain in those children, researchers found a higher level of measles virus antibodies and an ''unusual MMR'' antibody, whereas their response to other vaccines did not differ between autistic and normal children. None of this proves causation or a link; but combined they do provide a mechanism for brain damage and one potential trigger that might lead to autism. And that surely needs further investigation. Last week, while some newspapers and the medical establishment queued up to kick Dr Wakefield, a new US study of children defined as autistic by the US department of education and the biological surveillance summaries of the Center for Disease Control found ''a biological plausibility and epidemiological evidence showing a direct relationship between... measles containing vaccines and serious neurological disorders''. It also found a relationship between mercury containing vaccines and neurological disorders, the subject of litigation in the US. At the top of the study the authors, Dr Mark Geier and David Geier, both declare a potential conflict of interest in that they have been expert witnesses or consultants in areas involving adverse reactions to vaccines in civil litigation. In May last year Dr Miller - in her role as head of immunisation at the HPA, rather than as an expert for the drug companies - was critical of the Geiers' earlier work. As indeed was Britain's Committee on Safety of Medicines, which found ''serious methodological'' flaws. But as the Daily Mail and other newspapers reported last week, that committee and the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is packed with experts who either have shares in the defendant drug companies, receive funding for research from them or are paid advisers to them. As the Eye reported in 2002, three of the members who sat on the Medical Research Council's review of the ten-fold rise in autism were advisers to the defendant drug companies. Even the chair had shares in one of the companies. The point is that potential conflicts of interest are common in medical and scientific research and development and Dr Wakefield's is but a puff in the wind. Ninety percent of research depends on big business and the pharmaceutical companies - and this is set to rise. The big companies already have a direct line to the prime minister through the Pharmaceutical Industry Competitive Task Force (PICTF), which Tony Blair set up after a meeting with the heads of AstraZeneca, GlaxoWellcome and SmithKlineBeecham. The companies have already stated that they see the NHS as a huge unexploited resource. And the government's own reforming NHS Plan 2000 states that; ''The pharmaceutical industry is a UK success story, employing over 60,000 skilled workers and maintaining an annual trade surplus of over £2 billion. The industry is also the UK's leading investor in research and development. The NHS has a major role to play in ensuring that the UK remains an attractive base for the industry.'' Hence it has set about removing barriers to big business in the drug industry, encouraging hospitals and universities to enter into joint ventures and create mini-companies to exploit their research. They will inevitably become even more dependant on drug company influence - and even more at risk of serious conflicts of interest. Yet no one is shouting about that.
Mark Probert-March 3, 2004 - 03 Mar 2004 23:16 GMT > PRIVATE EYE 5 March - 18 March 2004 > MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS > > The vilification of Dr Andrew Wakefield in recent days has been a side show > to the important issue of whether the mumps, measles, and rubella triple > vaccine (MMR) poses a risk to a small sub set of children. Well, boo-hoo. Sniff...sniff..too bad...
The science minded pro-vacs have been telling the anti-vac thimersal whiner know-nothing liars that they have been creating just this real problem. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, the liars are whining.
Well, boo-hoo. Sniff..sniff..too bad...
But the attacks
> have served a purpose. Yes, the purpose is to show that the anti-vacs are a pack of liars who have derailed proper investigation into the real causes of autism for year. Now that we can move on from their fearmongering and bullshit, they want to whine that they ahve been caught.
They have highlighted the need to preserve
> independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one > rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another for > the government and drug companies. Hogwash. There has always been one rule, Wakefield has just wanted to hide his conflict so he can make the big bucks testifying.
> For example, one leading health official responsible for immunisation has > been working as an expert for the three defendant drug companies in the UK > MMR court case since July 2002. Yet as far as the Eye can ascertain, she > has never declared that potential ''conflict'' on any of her research papers.
> Dr Elizabeth Miller, head of immunisation at the government''s Health > Protection Agency (HPA), last year alone published three papers You mean this one?
Semin Pediatr Infect Dis. 2003 Jul;14(3):199-206. Related Articles, Links
Measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and the development of autism.
Miller E.
Immunisation Division, Public Health Laboratory Service, 61 Colindale Avenue, London NW9 5EQ, UK. Emiller@phls.org.uk
snip---
Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial
PMID: 12913832 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
It is a review, dummy, and not original research like Wakefield claimed he did.
And this one?
Arch Dis Child. 2003 Mar;88(3):222-3. Related Articles, Links
Bacterial infections, immune overload, and MMR vaccine. Measles, mumps, and rubella.
Miller E, Andrews N, Waight P, Taylor B.
Immunisation Division, Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre, Public Health Laboratory Service, 61 Colindale Avenue, London NW9 5EQ, UK. emiller@phls.org.uk
Combined measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine did not increase the risk of hospitalisation with invasive bacterial infection in the three months after vaccination; rather there was a protective effect. These results provide no support for the concept of "immunological overload" induced by multiple antigen vaccinations, nor calls for single antigen vaccines.
PMID: 12598383 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
and this one?
Arch Dis Child. 2002 Dec;87(6):493-4. Related Articles, Links
Recall bias, MMR, and autism.
Andrews N, Miller E, Taylor B, Lingam R, Simmons A, Stowe J, Waight P.
Statistics Unit, Public Health Laboratory Service, 61 Colindale Avenue, London NW9 5EQ, UK.
Parents of autistic children with regressive symptoms who were diagnosed after the publicity alleging a link with measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine tended to recall the onset as shortly after MMR more often than parents of similar children who were diagnosed prior to the publicity. This is consistent with the recall bias expected under such circumstances.
PMID: 12456546 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
You see, you have it backwards...
She is retained as an expert witness because she researches and publishes..not vice versa....
in the
> Archives of Disease in Childhood directly related to the MMR controversy. > One suggested that the combined triple live virus does not overload the > immune system, That is correct, it does not.
so there is no need for single vaccines. Two others
> suggested that parents have been more likely to attribute their children's > autism to MMR since 1998, when Dr Wakefield and his team at the Royal Free > hospital in north London published their controversial paper. Seems logical to me.
> Nowhere on Dr Miller's papers does she declare that she is also an expert > witness for the drug companies GlaxoSmithKline, Aventis Pasteur and Merck. I wonder if the writer of this *article* bothered to check the original publications.
> Moreover, the Eye has begun trawling through scientific and medical > journals to examine papers published over the last two years by other [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Diane Griffin, an American, and Professor Volker ter Meulen, a German), > have produced research papers directly associated with vaccination. They are retained to be experts because they do research. Do the lawyers subsidize the research? If so, you have a similar situation with Wakefiled. If not, stop whining.
> Unlike in the case of Dr Wakefield, there have been no screaming headlines > attacking their credibility or honesty; no demands for an inquiry by the > General Medical Council; no snipes at their ''fatally flawed'' research. Bullshit. This type of "non-existent" blather has been published regularly for years. It is one of the ways anti-vac liars undermine parental confidence.
> Instead, such authors continue to enjoy the support of government and big > business. By contrast, Dr Wakefield only has the support of harrassed > parents who believe their children were damaged by MMR, and, until > recently, the impoverished Legal Services Commission - hardly powerful or > influential. Well, we know that this is not true. he also had the support of the attorneys in performing his research and stood to make big Euros, Pounds and bucks testifying.
> Dr Miller maintains that neither she nor her department was paid by the > three pharmaceutical companies for the detailed and lengthy report she > submitted on their behalf to the court last June. She prepared their > evidence in her own time, her department says, and did not declare it on > any papers because there was no financial interest. So, why is she being vilified by the anti-vac liars? Because she was right all along and they cannot stand it.
> Nevertheless, it is known that money from those companies finds its way > into the agency, formerly the Public Health Laboratory Service, through > other research channels. In a recent annual report, Dr Miller listed five > ''non-personal'' interests - ie payments which benefited her department > rather than herself. Two of the companies featured were MMR defendants. So, she did not recevie any money for her services, but they try to smear her by implication.
> The rules on conflict are weak, open to interpretation and generally not > enforced - so should any criticism not be dished out in equal measure? As [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Dr Wakefield for non-disclosure of an interest when their own staff appear > equally compromised? because kids became sick and died due to Wakefield's actions? Seems right to me.
No doubt Dr Miller sought clearance before agreeing to
> act for the defendant drug companies. But every time she now opens her > mouth the question arises: Is she speaking from the ''impartial ''view of > the health department, open to all new research that comes to its > attention; or for that of the defendant drug companies? As Eye readers will > recall, Dr Miller also conducted the first ever trial of MMR among 10,000 > children before its introduction in the UK nationwide. see, more smear by innuendo.
> It is clear the medical establishment and ministers had been waiting for an > opportunity to attempt to discredit Dr Wakefield. Thus they seized on the > Sunday Times's resurrection of a debate about conflict which emerged in the > Lancet six years ago when Dr Wakefield published his controversial 1998 > study. Wrong. Six years ago his financial ties to the attorneys who were prosecuting these bogus claims were unknown.
sniop....
jon - 04 Mar 2004 01:06 GMT "Mark Probert shared his opinions and so did "john"
however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children concerned.
they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of that and the consequaences of their descsions.
no one else has the right to decide for them.
it is the place of the government and health services to educate and provide, not dictate and force
 Signature jon ________ keep claude happy and snip the garbage to make it work
David Wright - 04 Mar 2004 03:40 GMT >"Mark Probert shared his opinions >and so did "john" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and >provide, not dictate and force You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Jan - 04 Mar 2004 04:48 GMT >Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >You're right. Yes.
<diversion snipped>
Jan
Mark Probert-March 4, 2004 - 04 Mar 2004 14:07 GMT > >Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS > >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > <diversion snipped> You snipped the wrong diversion. Jon was changing the subject.
jon - 04 Mar 2004 19:11 GMT > jon wrote: > >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to > dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide. dont be a dick head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss issues of parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for their children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.
now go away, grow up and only come back when you have something adult to offer to the debate
 Signature jon ________ keep claude happy and snip the garbage to make it work
Mark Probert-March 4, 2004 - 04 Mar 2004 22:44 GMT > > jon wrote: > > >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people > is not something you should have the freedom to decide about. Equally obvious is the fact that you changed the subject of this thread, and I wonder why?
David Wright - 05 Mar 2004 02:50 GMT >> jon wrote: >> >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people >is not something you should have the freedom to decide about. Oh, it's *obvious*, is it? Well, I was merely pointing out the silliness of your implicit claim that parents have an absolute right to decide everything about their children's upbringing.
They don't have the right to kill a disobedient child (even though it's in the Bible) or lock it in a closet and starve it nearly to death. (If you think they do have this right, then it should be done to you immediately, but I'll assume you don't think so.)
So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal diseases comes perilously close to child abuse.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Jan - 05 Mar 2004 03:33 GMT >Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS >From: wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >silliness of your implicit claim that parents have an absolute >right to decide everything about their children's upbringing. Nothing silly about it.
<snip diversion nonsense>
>So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? >Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal >diseases comes perilously close to child abuse. Of course. OMMV. It is their child and they indeed do have the right to may that decision.
Jan
abacus - 05 Mar 2004 16:34 GMT > >> jon wrote: > >> >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal > diseases comes perilously close to child abuse. Since it only comes close, can I presume that you don't feel it crosses the line into child abuse?
And if it doesn't cross that line, doesn't that make it something that should be left to the discretion of the parents? Doesn't that mean that it is, in fact "the place of the government and health services to educate and provide, not dictate and force"?
Mark Probert-March 5, 2004 - 05 Mar 2004 16:52 GMT > > >> jon wrote: > > >> >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > that it is, in fact "the place of the government and health services > to educate and provide, not dictate and force"? I think it crosses the line into child neglect.
Ilsa9.1 - 05 Mar 2004 18:25 GMT >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote in message >news:<yVR1c.32086$SJ1.17491@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >I think it crosses the line into child neglect. And, as it has been REPEATEDLY REPEATED, in the USA, parents are NOT forced to Vaccinate their children. Its sort of like an inverted lottery. An overwhelming % of the participants "win" as opposed to losing. The few man-made complications are *statistically* insignificant compared to the reduction in the amount of NATURAL morbidity & mortality. The more that vaccinate, the lower the cost, the higher the pay-off for the individual and the herd.
Can anyone say "win-win" situation?
Mark Probert-March 5, 2004 - 05 Mar 2004 18:33 GMT > >> wright@clam.prodigy.net (David Wright) wrote in message > >news:<yVR1c.32086$SJ1.17491@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > And, as it has been REPEATEDLY REPEATED, in the USA, parents are NOT forced to > Vaccinate their children. Correct. EVERY state has a choice. EVERY state allows for homeschooling. However, if the parent wants their kids to be in a school, then they have to go by the rules.
Its sort of like an inverted lottery. An
> overwhelming % of the participants "win" as opposed to losing. The few man-made > complications are *statistically* insignificant compared to the reduction in > the amount of NATURAL morbidity & mortality. The more that vaccinate, the > lower the cost, the higher the pay-off for the individual and the herd. > > Can anyone say "win-win" situation? Win-win situation.
abacus - 08 Mar 2004 16:55 GMT > > > So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? > > > Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I think it crosses the line into child neglect. Hmmm...in a response to the original post I quoted from, you said "Who said differently? Is Strawman your favorite character in the Wizard of Oz?"
Now, it seems, you are the one who is saying differently. If you think that not vaccinating children constitutes neglect (a debatable position, but you're entitled to your opinion and I wish to explore the logical extension of such a position), then what should the government do about such neglect?
Presumably, you feel that the government should insist, through force of law, that parents vaccinate their children, just as the government insists that parents provide food, clothing, shelter, and education for their children.
If that is an opinion held by more than just a few individuals, and particularly if it is an opinion held by individuals in positions to determine government policy, then the OP's comment is a legimate concern, not a straw man argument.
If that is not your opinion, then what, in your opinion, should the government do about the 'neglectful' parents who refuse vaccinations for their children?
Mark Probert-March 8, 2004 - 08 Mar 2004 17:34 GMT > > > > So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? > > > > Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > government do about the 'neglectful' parents who refuse vaccinations > for their children? I do not believe that they should be forced to vaccinate. If a child is injured by not being vaccinated, then the parents should be held accountable.
jon - 08 Mar 2004 18:12 GMT "Mark Probert-March 8, 2004"
> I do not believe that they should be forced to vaccinate. If a child is > injured by not being vaccinated, then the parents should be held > accountable. so by that token, if child is injured by being vaccinated, especially when no choice is given of means of vaccination despite alternatives being availiable. then the government should be held accountable? or the medical profession that claim there is NO risk from combined vaccines?
 Signature jon ________ keep claude happy and snip the garbage to make it work
Mark Probert-March 8, 2004 - 08 Mar 2004 19:04 GMT > "Mark Probert-March 8, 2004" > > I do not believe that they should be forced to vaccinate. If a child is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > no choice is given of means of vaccination despite alternatives being > availiable. then the government should be held accountable? nope. If the child is deomnstably harmed by being vaccinated, then there must be an actual review of why. If the parents were properly advised of the risk, etc. then there is no accounting to be done. Further, there must be proof that the vaccination produced a known harm that could reasonably be foreseen.
In the case where the parents refuse vaccination, they get a free pass if there is no harm. If they are properly warned of the risks of non-vaccination, then they bear the responsiblity.
or the medical
> profession that claim there is NO risk from combined vaccines? Where did you read that? I have never, ever seen a doctor make such a claim. I have, however, seen that alleged by all of the anti-vac liars.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
David Wright - 09 Mar 2004 02:27 GMT >"Mark Probert-March 8, 2004" >> I do not believe that they should be forced to vaccinate. If a child is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >availiable. then the government should be held accountable? or the medical >profession that claim there is NO risk from combined vaccines? Only anti-vac cretins accuse doctors of claiming that vaccines have NO risk.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
abacus - 08 Mar 2004 22:40 GMT > in message news:<Qe22c.14627$UF1.1615359@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>... > > > > > So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > injured by not being vaccinated, then the parents should be held > accountable. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Accountable how? Legal action of some sort? Or simply by having to care for their injured child?
Mark Probert-March 8, 2004 - 09 Mar 2004 14:27 GMT > > in message news:<Qe22c.14627$UF1.1615359@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>... > > > > > > So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > I'm not sure what you mean by this. Accountable how? Legal action of > some sort? Perhaps, depending on the motivations, etc. However, you rnext point is far more appicable...
> Or simply by having to care for their injured child? Having to care for a disabled child knowing that you are the cause of that disability seems about right. Having two special needs kids, I know how hard it is to deal with all of the additional problems of raising our kids. Fortunately, we did everything right. I cannot imagine how we would feel if we had the slightest amount of guilt.
abacus - 09 Mar 2004 19:48 GMT > > > > If that is not your opinion, then what, in your opinion, should the > > > > government do about the 'neglectful' parents who refuse vaccinations [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Perhaps, depending on the motivations, etc. Here we disagree sir.
> However, you rnext point is far more appicable...
> > Or simply by having to care for their injured child? > > Having to care for a disabled child knowing that you are the cause of that > disability seems about right. Seems an appropriate accountability to me as well. Same sort of accountability that's used for parental decisions with other potentially serious consequences such as bad nutritional/drinking/drug use habits during pregnancy, allowing your child to participate in risky sports activities, choice of disciplinary measures, etc.
> Having two special needs kids, I know how hard > it is to deal with all of the additional problems of raising our kids. > Fortunately, we did everything right. I cannot imagine how we would feel if > we had the slightest amount of guilt. Now, imagine what parents who have a child that was injured by getting the vaccination rather than the disease itself feel and perhaps you can understand why there are those who object so stridently to mandating vaccinations (and other such decisions) rather than allowing parents to decide for themselves.
Mark Probert-March 9, 2004 - 09 Mar 2004 20:37 GMT Snip
> Now, imagine what parents who have a child that was injured by getting > the vaccination rather than the disease itself feel and perhaps you > can understand why there are those who object so stridently to > mandating vaccinations (and other such decisions) rather than > allowing parents to decide for themselves. Since there are no mandated vaccinations, what are you talking about?
JG - 09 Mar 2004 20:57 GMT > Snip
> > Now, imagine what parents who have a child that was injured by getting > > the vaccination rather than the disease itself feel and perhaps you > > can understand why there are those who object so stridently to > > mandating vaccinations (and other such decisions) rather than > > allowing parents to decide for themselves.
> Since there are no mandated vaccinations, what are you talking about? Legal jargon confuse you, Mark? Every state mandates (requires) that kids enrolling in school show proof of vaccination against, or immunity to, various diseases. The fact that exemptions are available DOESN'T negate the requirement. (This is a very, very old argument!)
Mark Probert-March 9, 2004 - 09 Mar 2004 21:29 GMT > > Snip > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to, various diseases. The fact that exemptions are available DOESN'T > negate the requirement. (This is a very, very old argument!) Every state says that if the mommies and daddies want to ship their kidies off to school tobe with other kiddies, thenthey have to be vaccinated, unless they opt for an exemption.
Of course, thoough, they have thechoice of keeping the kiddies at home and not vaccinating them. Thus they have a choice, and when one has a choice, there is no mandate.
Thus, I do disagree with you. There are no mandated vaccines. A child can grow up, get a vaccine preventable disease and die, all by the choice of the parents.
Jonathan Smith - 10 Mar 2004 20:32 GMT > > > Snip [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Legal jargon confuse you, Mark? Every state mandates (requires) No state mandates vaccination of anyone for anything. None. Not one. Zero. Show me the LAW that says you are required in all cases to be vaccinated. That's the every part of your statement.
> that > kids enrolling in school show proof of vaccination against, Some states require (mandate) that to attend school (or pre-school/daycare) that children show documentation of immunization status - DOCUMENTATION of immunization status - not evidence of vaccination.
> or immunity > to, various diseases. Thus, you can demonstrate immunization status via vaccination records, medical records of having had the disease or even serologic evidence of immunity; that's what you need UNLESS of course vaccination is medically inappropriate, or in many states, your religion prohibits it, or in some states you are philisophically opposed, and then all it takes is a signature on a form.
This is what schools require - a document with a signature.
> The fact that exemptions are available DOESN'T > negate the requirement. (This is a very, very old argument!) Yes - it clearly does since the law requires documentation of status, not the presence of vaccination, and it only requires it of children attending school (or daycare or preschool).
Get it through your head - there is NO madated vaccination requirement in any state in the US. None. NADA. Zippo. Zero. Just like the argument that MMR is laden with mercutry, another lie based on convenience because you don't have the facts.
js
Hawki63 - 10 Mar 2004 21:23 GMT >Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS >From: jonathansmith99@yahoo.com (Jonathan Smith) >Date: 3/10/2004 12:32 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: <fbcaefd.0403101232.15fdf394@posting.google.com>
> that children show documentation of immunization >status - DOCUMENTATION of immunization status - not evidence of >vaccination. talk about picking nits!!
what would be your definition of "evidence" vis documentation?? counting the needle marks??
>This is what schools require - a document with a signature. duh??? your point is??
BTW having filled out a gazillion such forms..esp for college bound kids...if no "paper trail" exists...then parents/kids have two options: serology or repeat the shots required...
many many colleges..for instance those in Mass esp...except NO exceptions (well..perhaps if a kid was immune compromised)....since a measles outbreaks a few years ago nearly shut down the university/college system there for a few weeks...bottom line..if you want your kid to go to Harvard...better bite the bullet...
>Yes - it clearly does since the law requires documentation of status, >not the presence of vaccination, and it only requires it of children I assume here you mean that the kids are NOT required to be vaccinated ON SITE I agree...but written records,,,or sero proof have always (in my humble experience) been accepted..
>Get it through your head - there is NO madated vaccination requirement >in any state in the US. None. NADA. Zippo. Zero. Just like the again..I realize this argument concerns small kids (and I am not arguing that)...but you may want to check the college age requirements...this does vary state to state
last summer I worked for a week checking in ALL students to the health dept of a small college....NO exceptions were allowed ...for MMR,,PPD....other vacs like Hep A and B were not required...MOST kids and parents showed up with "proof..ie documentation"...others spent time on the phone and fax begging docs to send the stuff....others simply were revacd ...for MMR....PPD were required ...no questions asked...we found at LEAST 10 positive PPD in approx 2000 students...those had to return with PROOF that they were on meds...
Funny..in college..they hold over your head a little incentive called "you can't register for classes....etc" so we had little argument!!
just my h.o. and "actual experience"
BTW....it was THIS college that required such stuff...others here do not....
hawki.....
abacus - 10 Mar 2004 14:28 GMT > Snip > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Since there are no mandated vaccinations, what are you talking about? Did you forget? We had, in the previous posts, discussed the possibility of legal action being taken against parents who did not vaccinate their child. You indicated your support for such consequences under some, unspecified, circumstances. If there were legal consequences to not taking an action, that would constitute a mandate.
David Wright - 06 Mar 2004 04:13 GMT >> >> jon wrote: >> >> >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Since it only comes close, can I presume that you don't feel it >crosses the line into child abuse? No, I'm saying it's a tricky proposition. For example, if I were going to take a child on a trip to Russia, I'd insist on a diphtheria vaccination before going, because they've had outbreaks there. I think it would be unacceptable to not do this.
>And if it doesn't cross that line, doesn't that make it something that >should be left to the discretion of the parents? Doesn't that mean >that it is, in fact "the place of the government and health services >to educate and provide, not dictate and force"? Only up to a point. If we imagine a world full of Roger Schlaflys, loaded with lame rationalizations about why *their* precious child should not be vaccinated, well, then that's a new situation. Right now, the Rogers of the world can parasite along, getting a free ride from the other people who *do* vaccinate. But that only works as long as most people do vaccinate. If the numbers drop low enough, then we get epidemics, as has been shown plenty of times (pertussis in the UK and Scandanavia and Japan, measles in Germany, etc etc etc). So I'm not an unlimited supporter of parental discretion in this area.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Colin Wilson - 06 Mar 2004 09:02 GMT > So I'm not an unlimited supporter of parental discretion in this area I don`t think many parents would quibble if they were simply offered the single jabs instead. This is a simple way to get over the MMR controversy and keep the numbers up.
I am not a parent, but would prefer to have single jabs offered as a choice rather than the now (perhaps unfairly) tarnished MMR.
 Signature Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email * old email address "btiruseless" abandoned due to worm-generated spam * --- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---
HCN - 06 Mar 2004 20:26 GMT > > So I'm not an unlimited supporter of parental discretion in this area > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I am not a parent, but would prefer to have single jabs offered as a > choice rather than the now (perhaps unfairly) tarnished MMR. ...
Why? So your kid will have to get 6 jabs instead of two, along with TRIPLE the trips to the clinic or doctor's office AND triple the costs.
Mark Probert-March 5, 2004 - 06 Mar 2004 20:32 GMT > > > So I'm not an unlimited supporter of parental discretion in this area > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Why? So your kid will have to get 6 jabs instead of two, along with TRIPLE > the trips to the clinic or doctor's office AND triple the costs. And triple the risks of site infections?
Colin Wilson - 06 Mar 2004 21:50 GMT > > > I am not a parent, but would prefer to have single jabs offered as a > > > choice rather than the now (perhaps unfairly) tarnished MMR. > > Why? So your kid will have to get 6 jabs instead of two, along with > > TRIPLE the trips to the clinic or doctor's office AND triple the > > costs. So if I chose to pay those costs (or had than option) ?
> And triple the risks of site infections? Shouldn`t the risk of infection be for me to decide ? - after all, patients are taken into dirty hospitals to contract MRSA
 Signature Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email * old email address "btiruseless" abandoned due to worm-generated spam * --- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---
Jan - 06 Mar 2004 23:00 GMT >Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS >From: Colin Wilson void@btinternet.com [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Shouldn`t the risk of infection be for me to decide ? - after all, >patients are taken into dirty hospitals to contract MRSA The *gang* is just doing their usual, they are making excuses, triple trips, triple cost, more jabs and now more risks of site infections.
This is to side tack the triple whammy on a child's body and triple junk in vaccines.
They are parrots of organized medicine, and most likely the ones who cliamed mercury in vaccines was safe, and push drugging kids.
It's called organized medicine brainwashing and EGO games.
Jan
Mark Probert-March 6, 2004 - 07 Mar 2004 15:12 GMT > > > > I am not a parent, but would prefer to have single jabs offered as a > > > > choice rather than the now (perhaps unfairly) tarnished MMR. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Shouldn`t the risk of infection be for me to decide ? - after all, > patients are taken into dirty hospitals to contract MRSA You sure can decide that. However, it is afactoid that is overlooked.
AFIAC, putting kids through multiple injections when there is no real reason to do so is child cruelty. I am glad that they are developing a 5 in 1 vaccination to save kids more pain.
My younger son went through a lot of pain for testing when he was younger and dreaded going to the doctor. We knew it was necessary, and did it. If i coul dhave saved him *one* needle, I would have.
Jan - 06 Mar 2004 22:24 GMT >Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS >From: "HCN" hcn@nospam.com [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Why? So your kid will have to get 6 jabs instead of two, along with TRIPLE >the trips to the clinic or doctor's office AND triple the costs. Why? Because it is a triple whammy.
Your excuse of inconvenience and costs comes straight out of the mouth or organized medicine.
*the MMR vaccine and if I had known about this I would not have let my child have the vaccination." Generally, patients never see the full ingredients list *
http://www.fairuk.org/DND20030626Thu.htm
Jan
David Wright - 06 Mar 2004 21:09 GMT >> So I'm not an unlimited supporter of parental discretion in this area > >I don`t think many parents would quibble if they were simply offered the >single jabs instead. This is a simple way to get over the MMR controversy >and keep the numbers up. Not for measles it wouldn't, now that Wakefield et al have managed to scare plenty of people about that, too.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
jon - 08 Mar 2004 00:19 GMT > So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end? > Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal > diseases comes perilously close to child abuse. my children are vaccinated, but i chose to have it done by single vaccines rather than the mysteriously "must have" triple combined vaccine.
and it could only be defined as neglect not abuse, neglect is not doing domething whivh is to the detriment of the child whereas abuse is actually doing something to the child which is to their detriment. thus it could be argued that if there is a link between MMR and problems for the child (such as is believed to be the case in Japan where they have stopped MMR altogther or in the USA where parenst have litigated for damages to thier children or as in other Ec countires that offer the choice) then the state is actually abusing these children.
of course as eminants of the state, doctors should really give children the sinlge vaccines if that is all the parents will consent to, otherwise it is in contravention of the Children Act 1989. of course doctors are "persuaded" (by monetary reward) to ensure massive uptake of the MMR and needless to say over half of the CSM are shareholders in the pharmacy company concerned.
this isnt about what is best for our children (i believe vaccination is though) it is about what is most profitable at the expense of our children
 Signature jon ________ keep claude happy and snip the garbage to make it work
Mark Probert-March 4, 2004 - 04 Mar 2004 14:01 GMT > "Mark Probert shared his opinions > and so did "john" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it is the place of the government and health services to educate and > provide, not dictate and force Who said differently? Is Strawman your favorite character in the Wizard of Oz?
CBI - 04 Mar 2004 23:20 GMT > "Mark Probert shared his opinions > and so did "john" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of > that and the consequaences of their descsions. OK- so when the herd immunity drops due to underimmunization and a kid who either could not recive the vacine or did not respond to it gets the disease how do you propose we make the parents of those unimmunized kids take responsibility for their decisions?
> no one else has the right to decide for them. The decisions affects people that the parent does not have the right to make decisions for.
> it is the place of the government and health services to educate and > provide, not dictate and force It is also the place of the government to protect.
 Signature CBI, MD
JG - 05 Mar 2004 19:54 GMT > > "Mark Probert shared his opinions > > and so did "john"
> > however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children > > concerned.
> > they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for > > their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of > > that and the consequaences of their descsions.
> OK- so when the herd immunity drops due to underimmunization ...or enough instances of vaccine failure...
and a kid
> who either could not recive the vacine or did not respond to it ...or experienced secondary failure...
gets
> the disease how do you propose we make the parents of those > unimmunized kids take responsibility for their decisions? Still all-too-eager to blame unvaccinated kids for disease transmission, I see. In the case of chickenpox, at this point more cases are undoubtedly transmitted by *vaccinated* kids than by unvaccinated kids (surely you recall the previous discussion of this topic). Why would it be fair to punish the parents of unvaccinated kids but not those whose kids have experienced vaccine failure (either primary or secondary)? Oh, I get it.... They *tried*, and that's all, apparently, that matters these days.
> > no one else has the right to decide for them.
> The decisions affects people that the parent does not have the right > to make decisions for. Individuals (parents, in the case of minors) are responsible for their own health. Remember the old "drive defensively" PS campaign? The same applies to communicable diseases. A smart parent will assume that *everyone* poses a potential threat to his/her child and will act in the child's best interests. Most choose to vaccinate, believing this provides a strong measure of protection. Others teach their kids good hygiene, i.e., measures to avoid, to a large degree, contracting various diseases. You seem to have an underlying belief that parents who forgo vaccination don't care about their kids' (or others' kids') health. Most non-vaccinators I know are actually *more* conscientious than vaccinators. Sure, some make what I often consider to be goofy choices (many are totally into alternative medicine), but they're putting a hell of a lot more thought (and time) into their kids' health than most vaccinators. Indeed, many of the vaccinators among my friends/acquaintances don't appear to put much thought into their kids' health at all; their kids often seem to be chronically ill, and they (the parents) put way too much stock (IMO) in what their physicians/pediatricians say.
> > it is the place of the government and health services to educate and > > provide, not dictate and force
> It is also the place of the government to protect. ...*society as a whole*, NOT individual members.
JG
Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even especially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities. --Alan Bloom, _The Closing of the American Mind_
Roger Schlafly - 04 Mar 2004 01:34 GMT > > They have highlighted the need to preserve > > independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one > > rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another for > > the government and drug companies. > It is a review, dummy, and not original research like Wakefield claimed he > did. So what? Gubmnt officials and review article authors can have conflicts, but not research article authors?
> She is retained as an expert witness because she researches and > publishes..not vice versa.... And that makes her conflicts ok?
Jeff - 04 Mar 2004 12:31 GMT (...)
> So what? Gubmnt officials and review article authors can have > conflicts, but not research article authors? When I coach soccer, I have my own agenda, including teaching soccer skills, making sure the children enjoy themselves, learn soccer and sportsmanship, and winning games. There is nothing we do without our own agenda.
Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same thing. In fact, this looms large in two of his books (and appears in most of them): Wonderful Life and Eight Little Piggies.
That is true of university researchers and government authors.
I don't know what "Gubmnt" is, however. Maybe you need to fix your computer's spell check function (not saying that mine works well ;-) ),
(...)
Roger Schlafly - 05 Mar 2004 03:20 GMT > Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist > who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same > thing. In fact, this looms large in two of his books (and appears in most of > them): Wonderful Life and Eight Little Piggies. Gould was an example an example of an academic whose personal ideology (Marxism) and egotism were big biases in his work. A lot of people had low opinions of him for various reasons.
Jeff - 05 Mar 2004 12:55 GMT > > Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist > > who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in his work. A lot of people had low opinions of him for > various reasons. Here is complete list of people whose personal biases did not affect his/her work:
<begin list> <end list>
Can you find some his book chapters and show how his supposed Marxism affected his work?
I won't argue about his ego. It was big.
Nothing the less, he was correct about how personal bias affects books and other writings. In fact, you can see it as you read his books -- as his experiences (age) affects what he writes about and how he writes it. And you can't miss his big ego, either.
Jeff
Ilsa9.1 - 05 Mar 2004 14:28 GMT >> Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist >> who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >in his work. A lot of people had low opinions of him for >various reasons. This is a sterling example of Roger's lack of integrity. Calling Gould an academic is as much a slur as calling Michael Jordan an athlete. Calling him a marxist is really Roger's way of saying that Gould's work was a bit over his head.
Mark Probert-March 4, 2004 - 04 Mar 2004 14:03 GMT > > > They have highlighted the need to preserve > > > independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And that makes her conflicts ok? Hardly. However, the author is feebly attempting to equate her being an expert witness to Wakefield's being paid by attorneys to conduct research on a small group of subjects, where a large percentage of the study group were clients of the attorneys.
I know you cannot see that the analogy is utterly bogus.
Jonathan Smith - 04 Mar 2004 14:08 GMT > > > They have highlighted the need to preserve > > > independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And that makes her conflicts ok? Aren't you a fan of temporal association as definitive causality? oops.
Research, results, then money. Wakefield - money, then research, then results.
js
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