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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / July 2008

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Peter Piper Polio -> Whatever Happened to the Polio "Epidemic"?

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Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 02:54 GMT
A number of gullible aunties on this group,
studiously ignoring the growing evidence for the
efficacy of alternative systems of medicine,
nevertheless seem to hold dear their own
set of beliefs, for example the notion that the Polio vaccine
erradicated the polio "epidemic".

There are so many fallacies, false turns and deceptions concealed in
this simplistic but easily believed and widely held opinion,
once held as almost axiomatic by I myself,
that the shock of exposing the truth can
be upsetting, PARTICULARLY to the
narrow minded old biddies who have STILL
been  unable, over their stale tea and afternoon
gossip sessions amongst themselves
while shaking their heads to acknowledge
that Acupuncture is here to stay, that Homeopathy is advancing in
power and prestige as research laboriously and finally begins to focus
on the elusive atomic
level behaviours that vindicate it, and that
nothing can shake their "draw a line in the sand  rooster-like
hypnosis" opinions on the efficacy of the old time vaccination methods
which have somehow invaded our advanced century CONTINUING their
masquerade of munificence and efficacy while in fact
wreaking enough widespread harm and damage as to gradually have come
to the attention of nearly everyone that all is not
hallowed and perhaps may be somewhat hollow in the temple of
vaccination.

Our first comment will be regarding the Salk and Sabin vaccines:  The
Salk vaccine
apparently contained a monkey virus
which caused some problems and there were NUMEROUS deleterious
instances and ill effects from the early injected version of the
vaccine.

Sabin came up with his oral "sugar cube"
vaccine which seemed to work better
and eventually replaced the Salk injected
version.

The difference between the two was that
the Salk vaccine contained an inactivated
Polio virus while the Sabin vaccine contained
one that was substantially more lively... so lively in fact that a
number of people, especially those with compromised immune systems
caught .... (surprise!) polio from the vaccine!

Now there is the famous polio epidemic
of the 1940's and 50's which was supposedly
STOPPED by the polio vaccines which we have mentioned above.

Well... that might be or it might not, but one wonders what got the
old polio epidemic started in the first place?  I am currently slowly
and laboriously reviewing statistics about it and it almost appears as
thought the upsurge in the polio epidemic came AFTER the polio
vaccines were introduced, rather than before.

Likewise which of the two polio vaccines
worked better and HOW were they
made ( the aunties will make a monkey
out of themselves when they read about it)

See documents such as
THIS ONE:
www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf
for details.

Everywhere I look, once one goes
past the easily "convincing" numbers
"proving" efficacy of the polio vaccines
to all who will surrender their doubts
and concerns, there are underlying
questions, fallacies, anamolies, more questions, mysterious failures
of the
vaccine, open questions about if it
was REALLY NEEDED in the first
place and a plethora of problems concerning the possibility of
deleterious consequences from still earlier vaccines.

Regarding the recent drive to
administer the polio vaccine to
children in India, I draw the Aunties'
attention to the following remark
from the Times of India
April 19 2008
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Patna/Blitzkrieg_to_battle_vicious_vir
us/articleshow/2962700.cms


"Blitzkrieg to battle vicious virus"
"Instances when a child has had a viral attack of polio despite being
administered oral polio vaccine (OPV) has led to questions about the
drug’s efficacy. But as Unicef polio coordinator Anisur Rehman
Siddique explains, everything depends on the nutritional status of the
child being administered polio drops."Undernourished children cannot
produce good anti-body. As a result, the vaccine becomes ineffective.
About 54.3% children are victims of malnutrition and hence the failure
rate."

Doc Schultz had contemptuously dismissed my earlier comments in
another thread regarding the aspect of nutrition and sanitation in
consideration of polio and the above quotes
indicates his complete lack of experience
and knowledge in this area and his unfortunate tendency to focus so
completely on statistics as to abandon all common sense and reason.
We may therefore DISMISS his comments and assertions of authority of
pro polio vaccine statistics
until perhaps he is able to produce
properly reasoned objections.

The document at THIS link:
www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf

already mentioned, goes into a number of interesting issues including
an analysis
of the monkey virus found in the early polio vaccines, the possibility
that the polio "epidemic" was caused by weakened immune systems
brought about by other vaccinations just coming into popularity in
that era,
the statistics involved INCREASED POLIO CASES AFTER ADMINSITRATION OF
THE VACCINES RATHER THAN BEFORE,
and information regarding the disappearance
of the polio "epidemic" at about the same
time, in the U.S. and Europe... EVEN in European countries which did
not use the vaccines(!?).

It is issues such as these, rather than D.C.'s or Doc Schultz's easily
repeated and convincing statistics in favour of the vaccines which
leads me to raise these questions which are of great concern to EVERY
PARENT and to citizens everywhere in the struggle to protect ourselves
and our loved ones from the medical totalitarianism of these times.

Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 14:12 GMT
> A number of gullible aunties on this group,
> studiously ignoring the growing evidence for the
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac

DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
Richard Schultz - 11 Jul 2008 15:25 GMT
: DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.

What exactly do you think that proves?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot,
but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot."
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 17:53 GMT
> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
>
> What exactly do you think that proves?

That you have, as THIS RESPONSE indicates,
NO RESPONSE.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 06:34 GMT
:> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:

:> : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.

:> What exactly do you think that proves?

: That you have, as THIS RESPONSE indicates, NO RESPONSE.

And does your consistent and absolute refusal to respond to *any* post
that presents evidence against your claims prove that you have NO RESPONSE?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 13:16 GMT
> In article <02b9461f-0d93-4d68-b166-2fa67e952...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> And does your consistent and absolute refusal to respond to *any* post
> that presents evidence against your claims prove that you have NO RESPONSE?

Still no response, but your next post rectifies
that.

Let us proceed to it.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 13:46 GMT
:> In article <02b9461f-0d93-4d68-b166-2fa67e952...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> :> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:

:> :> : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.

:> :> What exactly do you think that proves?

:> : That you have, as THIS RESPONSE indicates, NO RESPONSE.

:> And does your consistent and absolute refusal to respond to *any* post
:> that presents evidence against your claims prove that you have NO RESPONSE?
: Still no response, but your next post rectifies that.

Did you fail to notice that you did not answer the question that you
were asked, or did you deliberately not answer it?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Peter Moran - 11 Jul 2008 21:53 GMT
>DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.

PM WHile I thought it was mostly bullshit in relation to present vaccines
and present vaccine policy,  I didn't have enough information to hand about
the specific points raised to respond,  and your opinions are not likely to
make many sit up and take notice, anyway.

BTW,  contrast my reluctance to go off half-cocked with your apparent
tendency to assume anything must be true if you can find it in print.   It
merely has to run counter to general scientific opinion.  You don't even
seem to be able to conceive that some issues might be unsettled and
controversial -- anything that seemd to rubbish vaccines or authentic
scientific opinion can trigger a bout of your ridiculously inappropriate
triumphalism.

PM
Jan Drew - 11 Jul 2008 22:58 GMT
>you

Is not the subject
Citizen Jimserac - 12 Jul 2008 03:00 GMT
> >DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> PM

> >DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> PM

inappropriate triumphalism!!!!!

I like it and shall add it to my list but you
still do not trump Bowditch's "semantically vacuous"!

Well, now that I have your attention, would you
care to COMMENT on the matter at hand, on the possibility
of deleterious impact on the immune system of vaccines,
on the POSSIBILITY of a connection between the vaccine
program started in 1911 and the "spanish", "avian", "pig",
or whatever it was influenza epidemic of 1918?

The BLIND ACCEPTANCE that these things are good
and the casual connection between the disappearance
of the epidemic after the administration of the vaccines
are things I believe should be questioned because
the strident assertion and reassertion of the
"proof" should not used to STOP ALL THINKING
on the possibility of alternatives, as any good
scientist, like YOU, knows.

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 03:38 GMT
> Well, now that I have your attention, would you
> care to COMMENT on the matter at hand, on the possibility
> of deleterious impact on the immune system of vaccines,
> on the POSSIBILITY of a connection between the vaccine
> program started in 1911 and the "spanish", "avian", "pig",
> or whatever it was influenza epidemic of 1918?

Why are you trying to change the subject away from polio?

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
D. C. Sessions - 11 Jul 2008 15:21 GMT
> Well... that might be or it might not, but one wonders what got the
> old polio epidemic started in the first place?

Ah -- the argument from ignorance.  Others, who have
actually studied the matter, don't have your advantage.

> I am currently slowly
> and laboriously reviewing statistics about it and it almost appears as
> thought the upsurge in the polio epidemic came AFTER the polio
> vaccines were introduced, rather than before.

Polio vaccines were introduced before 1916?

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 17:57 GMT
> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Polio vaccines were introduced before 1916?

First off, D.C., if you hope to keep up with me
you WILL have to keep up with current research.

Here is your reading list, GET TO WORK!!

http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-High-Dilution-Physiology-Physics/dp/0792326768/ref=c
m_lmf_tit_1_rdsssl1

Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics (Hardcover)
by P.C. Endler (Editor), J. Schulte (Editor)
Product Description
"This is the first multidisciplinary work to address in a serious and
strictly scientific way the hows and whys underlying the actions of
ultra high dilutions (UHD). The contributions, all of them written by
leading scientists in the fields of physics, physiology and
biophysics, present an overview of UHD research which, to some extent,
has been stimulated by the recognition of the therapeutic efficacy of
homoeopathy."

http://www.amazon.com/Signals-Images-Madeleine-Bastide/dp/0792344669/ref=cm_lmf_
tit_2_rdsss

Signals and Images (Hardcover)
by Madeleine Bastide (Editor) "Scholars have documented the resistance
to novel scientific discovery by various groups, such as economic and
religious groups..."
Product Description
"Scientists challenging dominant paradigms are either ignored or
attacked by the scientific mainstream. This book, however, contains a
selection of scientific papers presented at the two last GIRI meetings
(International Research Group on Very Low Dose and High Dilution
Effects). The majority of these papers present results performed with
succussed high dilutions (homeopathic dilutions), even beyond the
Avogrado number. All presented models are classified, and their
interpretation is possible either in the mechanistic paradigm or in an
information paradigm. This new field of research introduces new
scientific concepts which are supported by experimental results.
Furthermore, this nascent science is totally concerned with living
organisms and, as such, it becomes necessary to define `information'
brought by non-molecular high dilutions. This book presents brain-
storming work of this research group and is one of the starting points
of a scientific evolution."

Ultra low doses: Biological and clinical applications (Hardcover)
by C. Doutremepuich (Author) "In both experiments intestinal transit
was significantly accelerated (p<0.01) only by Neostigmine..." (more)
Key Phrases: stained basophils, histamine dilutions, arsenious
anhydride, New York, Coultronics France, Stago France
http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-low-doses-Biological-applications/dp/0748400214/ref=
cm_lmf_tit_5_rdsssl1


Now... to RETURN to the topic, you comments
IF ANY are invited on one of the papers cited in the
post regarding polio vaccines and polio itself:
http://www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf

I will OF COURSE immediately start quoting major
sections of this document in response to any
attempts to change the subject.  Proby, don't
even bother, I'm ignoring your posts
and every else seems to be too (sorry, hope
this can change when you get back to posting
some good information and reasoning).

D.C.? Doc S? change the subject anyone?

Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 12 Jul 2008 02:28 GMT
>> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Here is your reading list, GET TO WORK!!

<snip reference to a book about homeopathy, which has nothing to do
with when polio vaccines were introduced>

<snip reference to another book about homeopathy, which has nothing to
do with when polio vaccines were introduced>

<snip reference to a third book about homeopathy, which has nothing to
do with when polio vaccines were introduced>

>Now... to RETURN to the topic, you comments
>IF ANY are invited on one of the papers cited in the
>post regarding polio vaccines and polio itself:
>http://www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf

Where it says "Beginning in the 1950s, these vaccines were
administered to millions of people in the United States and throughout
the world".

>I will OF COURSE immediately start quoting major
>sections of this document in response to any
>attempts to change the subject.

Perhaps you could quote the part where it says "Beginning in the
1950s, these vaccines were administered to millions of people in the
United States and throughout the world". That should tell us how many
polio vaccines were introduced before 1916.

>  Proby, don't
>even bother, I'm ignoring your posts
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 12 Jul 2008 04:36 GMT
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com>

<snip>

<snip>

<snip>
Citizen Jimserac - 12 Jul 2008 19:15 GMT
SNIP!!!!

Just wanted to see how YOU handled
off topic stuff.

Know I know!!!

SNIP!!!!

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 13 Jul 2008 10:06 GMT
>SNIP!!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

Your control problem acting up again?
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 13:15 GMT
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:15:22 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Your control problem acting up again?

Martin!!!!  Long time no compoute!!

Good to have you back.

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 13 Jul 2008 15:34 GMT
>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:15:22 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any
longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied?
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 16:10 GMT
>>Martin!!!!  Long time no compoute!!
>>
>>Good to have you back.
>
> I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any
> longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied?

Jan is his role model.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2008 04:51 GMT
>Jan

Is not the subject.
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 19:14 GMT
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any
> longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied?

That's it!  It's the old Martin!!!

Er... by the way Martin... I'm really curious,
you've been absent from this newsgroup for
QUITE SOME TIME and I was just wondering what
brought you back???

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 14 Jul 2008 19:22 GMT
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

I can tell you that it wasn't you. You're still a despicable
anti-vaccination liar who is oblivious to facts. Being part of the
woowoo world where your buddies support you no matter how vile the
nonsense you spout makes you feel so warm and fuzzie there is nothing
I can do or say that'll change the wiring of the few neurons you have.
Citizen Jimserac - 14 Jul 2008 23:29 GMT
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> nonsense you spout makes you feel so warm and fuzzie there is nothing
> I can do or say that'll change the wiring of the few neurons you have.

Martin, you can't imagine how enjoyable it is to listen to your
comments.  You are SO MUCH more direct than that
Proby dullard, though there are some common denominators.

Now the thing I would like to inquire more about is your
comment about my woo buddies and how they "support" me.
Please tell me more about this, I am really curious about
this because if there's any chance that I can get some money for
expressing my opinions, now THAT is news to me
and I want to learn where!!!

Details please, and AGAIN, many thanks, it is
a pleasure to see you back here!!

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 15 Jul 2008 22:06 GMT
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac
>>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>expressing my opinions, now THAT is news to me
>and I want to learn where!!!

They support you by telling you what wonderful posts you write, how
incredibly smart you are etc. They make you feel such a special,
intelligent person, while not having to go through all that
timeconsuming stuff like learning facts.
But me, being the partypooper that I am, call you, erm, something
closer to the facts.
When you started posting here, you started out quite reasonable but
you quickly found out that you could either try to refute your
opponents, which meant a lot of work (and you can't do it anyway,
because I'm right) or you could just make sh.t up and receive praise
regardless of what you wrote from the likes of Jan Drew, Mr. Kinghoff,
Timmy Bolen etc. You choose the dark side, which is, in the words of
Yoda, quicker, more tempting but certainly not stronger.

>Details please, and AGAIN, many thanks, it is
>a pleasure to see you back here!!

So you were lying when you said you didn't find my posts worth
reading. Why am I not surprised to see an anti-vaccination liar do
what they all do best - lie.

>Citizen Jimserac
Jan Drew - 16 Jul 2008 02:15 GMT
"Martin Rady wrote insults again, and off topic.
Jan Drew - 15 Jul 2008 04:29 GMT
"Martin Rady posted nothing but insults
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 20:13 GMT
:>Citizen Jimserac
:
: I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any
: longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied?

You may have missed the earlier exchange between me and D.C. Sessions,
in which I expressed the opinion that since CJ apparently does not know
the difference between the truth and a lie, it is perhaps inappropriate
to call him a "liar."

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 21:21 GMT
> :>Citizen Jimserac
> :
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the difference between the truth and a lie, it is perhaps inappropriate
> to call him a "liar."

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he doesn't know the
difference, only that he doesn't pay even the liar's
deference to the truth.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 21:51 GMT
> In message <g5dk52$32...@news.iucc.ac.il>, Richard Schultz wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> difference, only that he doesn't pay even the liar's
> deference to the truth.

Guillain-Barre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 22:13 GMT
>> In message <g5dk52$32...@news.iucc.ac.il>, Richard Schultz wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Guillain-Barre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think "George Bush" is the G-B that comes closer to you.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 14 Jul 2008 02:00 GMT
> In message <50d7ba08-3b1d-4c46-8fbc-8a65e3789...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I think "George Bush" is the G-B that comes closer to you.

Ooohhh!!!  Now that is a really bad insult!!!
Oh that smarts, being compared to Chimsky the great
"decider".  Ouch!!

Citizen Jimserac
Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2008 04:55 GMT
ALL off topic deleted.
Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2008 04:53 GMT
All off topic deleted.
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 03:03 GMT
>> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-High-Dilution-Physiology-Physics/dp/0792326768/ref=c
m_lmf_tit_1_rdsssl1

> Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics (Hardcover)

... which has nothing to do with the polio epidemic of 1916.

> http://www.amazon.com/Signals-Images-Madeleine-Bastide/dp/0792344669/ref=cm_lmf_
tit_2_rdsss

> Signals and Images (Hardcover)

Another attempt to change the subject from the polio epidemic of 1916.

> Ultra low doses: Biological and clinical applications (Hardcover)

A third attempt to change the subject from the polio epidemic of 1916.

> Now... to RETURN to the topic, you comments
> IF ANY are invited on one of the papers cited in the
> post regarding polio vaccines and polio itself:
> http://www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf

And still nothing about the vaccines that you claim caused the polio
epidemic of 1916.

> I will OF COURSE immediately start quoting major
> sections of this document in response to any
> attempts to change the subject.

And apparently just to be sure, you'll change it yourself.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 18:24 GMT
> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Polio vaccines were introduced before 1916?

OH NO, my dear D.C., but (surprise!!) they
had OTHER vaccines.  Here, read...
Read of the politics of fear behind
vaccines.

http://www.vran.org/vaccines/flu-bird/flu-hyst1918.htm

VACCINES:    INFLUENZA - 2005

Recreating the 1918-19 “Spanish” Flu epidemic hysteria

compiled by Ingri Cassel

"As the bird flu hype intensifies, suddenly people who had never heard
of it before remember the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 as if it just
happened. It’s interesting how the modern remembrance of the 1918
outbreak, being leaked into our minds from the CDC through the
mainstream media, is dramatically exaggerated from doctored historical
accounts."

For instance, an Associated Press story from 1997 cited a study done
by the Armed Forces Institute under the leadership of Dr. Jeffery K.
Taubenberger. Taubenberger, et al., analyzed specimens from some of
the 43,000 servicemen that died as a result of the “Spanish” flu and
had been preserved in formaldehyde and wax for future studies. It was
theorized that “the virus … is a mutation that evolved in American
pigs and was spread around the globe by U.S. troops mobilized for
World War I.”

"Regarding flu epidemiology, pigs may have wings

In February, 2004, the BBC reported that British scientists determined
that the strain of flu virus responsible for the 1918-19 “Spanish” flu
pandemic was an avian virus that had mutated. This information was
determined by exhuming bodies from villages within 700 miles of the
north pole from people who had died during the 1918-19 flu pandemic.

Is the reason for this confusion due to the fact that the existence of
viruses was known but not isolated and categorized until after 1933,
the year the electron microscope was invented? Some articles from the
late 90s even theorize that the virus originated in birds that
infected pigs that then infected humans. Hmmm…"

"1918 death toll still rising

Another problem is the evolving numbers of people who were infected
with the “Spanish” flu and the numbers of people who actually died. An
“AP Statistics Lab” claims that 25 million people died worldwide from
the 1918 flu pandemic with half a million dying in the U.S. The CDC
claimed in 1999 (Preparing for the Next Influenza Pandemic) that 20
million people died worldwide from the 1918 flu pandemic but now
claims, in 2005, that the death toll was 50 million worldwide. Another
article justifies these discrepancies by saying that anywhere from 20
million to 100 million people died worldwide during the 1918-19 flu
pandemic. Aside from this “official” confusion, it is clear that the
World Health Organization (WHO) and the Bush administration are using
recreated 1918 flu pandemic history to sound the alarm justifying the
$4 billion tagged onto a defense spending bill passed by the Senate
September 24, 2005."

"Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), with the backing of Senate Minority
Leader Harry Reid (D-Nevada), wants the government to spend nearly
$3.1 billion to stockpile enough doses of an anti-viral pharma drugs
(not vitamin C or oregano oil) for half the U.S. population. If half
the current U.S. population (not counting the illegal immigrants) were
to “benefit” from this boondoggle, it amounts to $21 for each anti-
viral dose administered at taxpayer expense."

"Learning from the past

Historians puzzle over the virulence of the “Spanish” flu versus
deadly medical treatments used nearly 90 years ago. According to
medical researcher Jim West, chloroform was used as a preservative in
several orthodox cough syrups in 1918 and would convert to highly
poisonous phosgene when oxidized, causing liver failure and various
cancers."

"Patrick J. Carroll wrote a piece in the August 5, 2003 edition of The
Irish Examiner recounting relatively unknown vaccine history. He
claimed that a report from then U.S. Secretary of War Henry L Stimson
verified 63 deaths and 28,585 cases of hepatitis as a direct result of
the WWI yellow fever vaccination program of only six months duration.
Yellow Fever vaccination was only one of the 14 to 25 shots given to
army recruits. Quoting from the article that can be accessed at
http://www.vaclib.org/news/vaccinenotflu.htm"

“Army records also reveal that after vaccination became compulsory in
the U.S. Army in 1911, not only did typhoid increase rapidly but all
other vaccinal diseases increased at an alarming rate. After America
entered the war in 1917, the death rate from typhoid vaccination rose
to the highest point in the history of the U.S. Army. The deaths
occurred after the shots were given in sanitary American hospitals and
well-supervised army camps in France, where sanitation had been
practiced for years."

“The report of the Surgeon-General of the U.S. Army shows that during
1917 there were admitted into the army hospitals 19,608 men suffering
from anti-typhoid inoculation and vaccinia. This takes no account of
those whose vaccine diseases were attributed to other causes."

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 02:30 GMT
>> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Recreating the 1918-19 ?Spanish? Flu epidemic hysteria

[snip]

None of which relates to the vaccines which you propose
to be the cause of the 1916 polio epidemic -- in fact,
you haven't identified even one, much less the one(s)
whose discontinuance you credit with the end of polio
in the Western Hemisphere.

Oh, dear.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Peter Bowditch - 12 Jul 2008 02:31 GMT
>> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>compiled by Ingri Cassel

<snip amazing collection of lies fantasising about things that
happened AFTER 1916>

When did 1917 come before 1916?

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 02:59 GMT
>>> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> When did 1917 come before 1916?

Others have posted about how the Amazing Evil of Vaccines
can travel through space to afflict people other than those
vaccinated.  Well, CJ is just taking that a step farther
to show that the Mojo Malo can also travel back in time.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 12 Jul 2008 19:16 GMT
> CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> When did 1917 come before 1916?

Sorry Bowie, can't change the subject
away from the VACCINES that started
be given in the army in 1911!!!

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 23:46 GMT
>> CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> away from the VACCINES that started
> be given in the army in 1911!!!

And that has ... what?  to do with the 1916 polio epidemic?

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 01:55 GMT
> In message <25ee32ea-e46d-4a19-93a2-bc42261cf...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> And that has ... what?  to do with the 1916 polio epidemic?

Possibly made it possible by compromising
the immune systems and health of the soldiers.
You saw the illness statistics of the soldiers
in the web link.  That conclusion is speculative
but a possibility.  It must be considered.

I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc
and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness.
Or do you?  Does politics win out over modern
research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio?
Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the
possibility that it was Guillain Barre?

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 02:56 GMT
>> In message <25ee32ea-e46d-4a19-93a2-bc42261cf...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> in the web link.  That conclusion is speculative
> but a possibility.  It must be considered.

No, actually, it isn't worth considering for one simple
reason: the 1916 polio epidemic was not confined to
soldiers who were stationed in areas where yellow
fever was prevalent.

In other words, you're blowing smoke.

> I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc
> and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness.

It's irrelevant.  Maybe it was polio, maybe it wasn't.
The bottom line is that there were a LOT of people
affected, and most of them didn't have chauffeurs.

> Or do you?  Does politics win out over modern
> research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio?

It's far from certain either way.  Mostly it's a
diversion from the fact that your thread topic is
total bullshit.

> Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the
> possibility that it was Guillain Barre?

I know people who've had GB, and FDRs symptoms don't
fit that any better than they do polio.  Mostly it's
about as relevant as whether Alexander the Great died
of West Nile fever.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 05:23 GMT
> In message <e48cebdb-1d1e-4dd2-b9c6-8fbfffb53...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> In other words, you're blowing smoke.

OK, it looks to me like you've got a good
objection there, I'll check it out.

> > I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc
> > and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness.
>
> It's irrelevant.  Maybe it was polio, maybe it wasn't.
> The bottom line is that there were a LOT of people
> affected, and most of them didn't have chauffeurs.

Not to the "March of Dimes" and the national campaign
to BURN INTO EVERY YOUNG MIND (AND OLD) the absolute
necessity for a unified acceptance of the absolute
efficacy and inviolate applicability of vaccinations.

> > Or do you?  Does politics win out over modern
> > research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio?
>
> It's far from certain either way.  Mostly it's a
> diversion from the fact that your thread topic is
> total bullshit.

I see that you have chosen then, to respond
to a thread of total bullshit. HOW VERY REVEALING!

> > Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the
> > possibility that it was Guillain Barre?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about as relevant as whether Alexander the Great died
> of West Nile fever.

Is THAT the extent of you diagnostic abilities?
You KNOW some people?  Conversationally
interesting, though.  OK.

Nice try, but a strikeout..

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 14:50 GMT
>> In message <e48cebdb-1d1e-4dd2-b9c6-8fbfffb53...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:

>> > I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc
>> > and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> necessity for a unified acceptance of the absolute
> efficacy and inviolate applicability of vaccinations.

If that's your excuse, its all the more irrelevant
because "FDR as a polio victim" wasn't part of the
"march of dimes."  He *sponsored* it, but his paralysis
was very carefully kept out of the public eye.

Again, totally beside the point.  Which is, since you
seem to have forgotten, your silly notion that vaccines
cause polio epidemics.  If so, again, what vaccine has
been removed from use to cause the end of polio in the
Western Hemisphere?

>> > Or do you?  Does politics win out over modern
>> > research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I see that you have chosen then, to respond
> to a thread of total bullshit. HOW VERY REVEALING!

Only that I take Edmund Burke's admonishion to heart.

>> > Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the
>> > possibility that it was Guillain Barre?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You KNOW some people?  Conversationally
> interesting, though.  OK.

Aside from the juvenile "I WIN! I WIN!" that seems to be
your reason for posting, please consider that I just
*might* have gone a bit deeper into the relative symptoms
than that (notably, GB does not usually have an onset
coincident with infection and the paralysis is usually
temporary, to name two.)

Barring histological analysis, it's impossible now to
know what really did happen to FDR -- and, frankly, it
doesn't really matter.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 06:42 GMT
:> Or do you?  Does politics win out over modern
:> research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio?
:
: It's far from certain either way.  

You don't understand -- CJ got it from a REAL SCIENTIST [tm], so
it must be true!

:> Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the
:> possibility that it was Guillain Barre?
:
: I know people who've had GB, and FDRs symptoms don't
: fit that any better than they do polio.  

I only know one personally (plus I've read about Joseph Heller's bout with
it, although not his memoir).  AFAIK, G-B is basically completely debilitating
(the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her life flat on
her back incapable of doing just about anything).

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 13:26 GMT
> In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her life flat on
> her back incapable of doing just about anything).

Well, not asking for any more FDR tissue samples,
eh?  Good.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 13:48 GMT
:> I only know one personally (plus I've read about Joseph Heller's bout with
:> it, although not his memoir).  AFAIK, G-B is basically completely
:> debilitating (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her
:> life flat on her back incapable of doing just about anything).

: Well, not asking for any more FDR tissue samples, eh?  Good.

I'm still waiting for you to provide such a tissue sample, which would
certainly go much further in proving your hypothesis than anything that
you've written so far has.

In the meantime, you failed, once again, to respond to the point being
made, namely, that FDR's symptoms do not match those of G-B Syndrome.

Tell me, do you have a Boy Scout on call for when you want to cross the street?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter."
                -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_
The One True Zhen Jue - 13 Jul 2008 14:07 GMT
> In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her life flat on
> her back incapable of doing just about anything).

She and Joseph Heller should have sought treatment with TCM.

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Martin - 13 Jul 2008 15:37 GMT
>> In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>She and Joseph Heller should have sought treatment with TCM.

You're going to claim acupuncture can cure AIDS next, right?
The One True Zhen Jue - 13 Jul 2008 18:01 GMT
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:07:06 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> You're going to claim acupuncture can cure AIDS next, right?- Hide quoted text -

You're about as good a psychic as you are a skeptic.  And, AIDS is not
the topic.

BTW, have you had any luck coping since you found out how widespread
acupuncture's acceptance is?  Have you had any luck in banning
acupuncture, reducing its acceptance, or even slowing its growth?
Please keep us posted on your personal progress.

> - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 19:16 GMT
On Jul 13, 1:01 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:07:06 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> acupuncture, reducing its acceptance, or even slowing its growth?
> Please keep us posted on your personal progress.

I'm sorry you must avoid the use of multi-syllabic
words and complicated concepts when dealing with
Martin.

And, what a DELIGHT that he decided to come
back just now, while other aunties were getting
their a.ses KICKED (figuratively speaking of course).

What a "coincidence".

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 14 Jul 2008 19:18 GMT
>> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>acupuncture, reducing its acceptance, or even slowing its growth?
>Please keep us posted on your personal progress.

How about this: I've had as much success there as you have had with
finding evidence that acupuncture works.
The One True Zhen Jue - 14 Jul 2008 20:47 GMT
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> How about this: I've had as much success there as you have had with
> finding evidence that acupuncture works.- Hide quoted text -

Translated from Martin-speak "I've had no success and will never agree
with conventional medicine's warm embrace of acupuncture efficacy"
Spoken like a true believer with a wide streak of fatalism.  Such is
the dilemna of being Martin.

> - Show quoted text -
Richard Schultz - 15 Jul 2008 05:53 GMT
: Translated from Martin-speak "I've had no success and will never agree
: with conventional medicine's warm embrace of acupuncture efficacy"

Conventional medicine has not "warmly embraced" acupuncture efficacy.
*Some* practitioners of conventional medicine are willing to accept
acupuncture's placebo effects in certain cases, and *some* practitioners
of conventional medicine are willing to forego their training in anatomy
and physiology in order to embrace a belief in "meridians" and "qi."

I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence that conventional
medicine has embraced (in the sense of providing positive evidence for
the efficacy of acupuncture according to the same standards to which other
treatments are held) the efficacy of acupuncture as a treatment for
nicotine addiction or Guillain-Barre syndrome.  For that matter, I'm waiting
for you to provide any evidence that you've read the critical review
that I cited, in which a *long* list of conditions for which acupuncture's
efficacy has *not* been proven is given, or the osteoarthritis study that
you cite as evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture but that in fact doesn't.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"
Citizen Jimserac - 15 Jul 2008 12:52 GMT
> In article <25ddcb36-3bcf-4e58-9a16-89e0f3f84...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of conventional medicine are willing to forego their training in anatomy
> and physiology in order to embrace a belief in "meridians" and "qi."

DOC QUIXOTE POSTS AGAIN!!

See the otherwise rational scientist go
bonkers over trying to demonstrate Acupuncture
as placebo!  Watch in amazement as he ignores
scientific confirmation of the existence of
meridians and points in order to focus ALL his
attention on some pathetic sham acupuncture studies...
Gaze in astonishment as MAJOR PORTIONS of his
thinking faculties are SHUT DOWN in order
to maintain his delusion of inviolate
pretentious "omniscience"...
All happening now in THIS forum!

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 15 Jul 2008 13:48 GMT
: See the otherwise rational scientist go bonkers over trying to
: demonstrate Acupuncture as placebo!  

Here's a question that can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no" (and hence
will remain unanswered):

Have you read the article "Acupuncture -- a critical review," which was
written by a professor in a department of *complementary medicine*, and
which concludes inter alia that "the majority of RCTs employing new
sham-acupuncture devices that allow adequate control of placebo effects
imply that acupuncture is not associated with clinical effects beyond
a powerful placebo response"?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 16 Jul 2008 12:08 GMT
Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre.

Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 16 Jul 2008 12:42 GMT
>Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre.

And you know this how?

Have you informed the Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt Institute of the
mistake on their web site.  http://www.feri.org

>Citizen Jimserac

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Richard Schultz - 16 Jul 2008 12:51 GMT
: Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre.

It's good to know that you know more than medical doctors about medicine.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 16 Jul 2008 17:10 GMT
> In article <b55d187a-06cd-4119-9aff-d2879e90d...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> -----
> "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

It's good to know that you don't know more than the medical doctors
that wrote the peer reviewed paper that FDR actually had Guillian-
Barre.

Citizen Jimserac
Neither do you.
Peter Bowditch - 17 Jul 2008 02:56 GMT
>> In article <b55d187a-06cd-4119-9aff-d2879e90d...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>that wrote the peer reviewed paper that FDR actually had Guillian-
>Barre.

No, they wrote an article published in a journal of BIOGRAPHY in which
they stated that applying a post hoc statistical process to a single
event gave them cause to think something.

I have a friend who appears to suffer from identical symptoms to those
exhibited by FDR. I look forward to the peer-reviewed research using
Bayesian statistical methods which prove that FDR was paralysed due to
severe untreated spina bifida which resulted in damage to the spinal
cord.

I know someone else who appears to suffer from identical symptoms to
those exhibited by FDR. I look forward to the peer-reviewed research
using Bayesian statistical methods which prove that FDR was paralysed
due to cerebral palsy.

Have you contacted the Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt Institute yet?

>Citizen Jimserac
>Neither do you.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 17 Jul 2008 06:08 GMT
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote anecdotes:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/msg/b47238df12888f43

Anecdotes are not facts. They are, at best interesting stories. At
worst, outright lies.
Richard Schultz - 17 Jul 2008 07:38 GMT
: It's good to know that you don't know more than the medical doctors
: that wrote the peer reviewed paper that FDR actually had Guillian-
: Barre.

What part of "peer reviewed" does not equal "correct" is too hard for
you to grasp?  Why do you believe that medical doctors are so completely
misguided that they understand neither the causes of nor the cures for
diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than
60 years ago?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 17 Jul 2008 16:28 GMT
> In article <834b9545-54c7-41ea-8e59-3039b4439...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> -----
> "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

What part of the clinical symptoms indicating it WASN'T polio
are too hard for YOU to grasp?

Citizen Jimserac
Neither do you.
Richard Schultz - 17 Jul 2008 17:15 GMT
:> What part of "peer reviewed" does not equal "correct" is too hard for
:> you to grasp?  Why do you believe that medical doctors are so completely
:> misguided that they understand neither the causes of nor the cures for
:> diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than
:> 60 years ago?

: What part of the clinical symptoms indicating it WASN'T polio
: are too hard for YOU to grasp?

Your question has already been answered by several people, including me.  
On the other hand, as usual, you failed to answer either of the questions
that were asked of you.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Apparently, you take me for a complete fool."
"Yeah -- more or less."
                Bob & Ray, "Garish Summit"
Citizen Jimserac - 17 Jul 2008 22:40 GMT
> In article <d221475b-8e1b-43a7-8b7c-f5f996f0a...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> On the other hand, as usual, you failed to answer either of the questions
> that were asked of you.

Your comments have already been refuted by several
people (the authors of the cited paper) and by
me.

Citizen Jimserac
That's because you are one.
Richard Schultz - 18 Jul 2008 08:55 GMT
:> In article <d221475b-8e1b-43a7-8b7c-f5f996f0a...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:

:> :> What part of "peer reviewed" does not equal "correct" is too hard for
:> :> you to grasp? ?Why do you believe that medical doctors are so completely
:> :> misguided that they understand neither the causes of nor the cures for
:> :> diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than
:> :> 60 years ago?

:> : What part of the clinical symptoms indicating it WASN'T polio
:> : are too hard for YOU to grasp?

:> Your question has already been answered by several people, including me. ?
:> On the other hand, as usual, you failed to answer either of the questions
:> that were asked of you.

: Your comments have already been refuted by several people (the authors
: of the cited paper) and by me.

You still haven't answered either of the questions that you were asked, and
you compounded it by making a statement that is manifestly untrue.  Good work.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter."
                -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_
Citizen Jimserac - 18 Jul 2008 13:38 GMT
On Jul 18, 3:55 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz)

Waste of time exchange terminated.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 18 Jul 2008 13:54 GMT
: On Jul 18, 3:55?am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz)

: Waste of time exchange terminated.

Should I add the two questions that you failed to answer to the list, or
do you think that the list is long enough already?  Especially since the
first one goes straight to your ignorance of how science works, and the
second to your willingness to defend ideas that contradict each other.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Apparently, you take me for a complete fool."
"Yeah -- more or less."
                Bob & Ray, "Garish Summit"
Jan Drew - 19 Jul 2008 03:21 GMT
> In article
> <fe579482-5984-4a19-beed-d1e697c941ac@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> you compounded it by making a statement that is manifestly untrue.  Good
> work.

Speaking of *untrue*....

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/97c7fa5b19513671

Jun 13 2008

In article
<08190f78-edd9-4e87-93f9-97ff1b572...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Citizen
Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:

: Oh darn it! Poor Richard will have to respond to this

No he won't.

> -----
> Richard Schultz
Jan Drew - 19 Jul 2008 03:09 GMT
> In article
> <834b9545-54c7-41ea-8e59-3039b44391a4@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than
> 60 years ago?

http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/PeerREVIEW.html

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/diseases/articles/2005/08/15/flaws_are_fou
nd_in_validating_medical_studies/


Flaws are found in validating medical studies
Many see need to overhaul standards for peer review
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff  |  August 15, 2005

WASHINGTON -- They are two of the most widely publicized pieces of
medical research in recent years: Reports in prestigious journals
declared that women who underwent hormone replacement therapy, and
people who ingested large amounts of Vitamin E, had relatively low
rates of heart disease.

But after research contradicted those studies -- frustrating anyone
who
had followed their recommendations -- some specialists began looking
at
whether peer review had failed to identify serious flaws in the
research.

But the specialists found that it was almost impossible to discover
what had happened in the vetting process, since peer reviewers are
unpaid, anonymous, and unaccountable. Moreover, their reviews are kept
confidential, making it impossible to know the parameters of the
reviews.

Now, after a study that sent reverberations through the medical
profession by finding that almost one-third of top research articles
have been either contradicted or seriously questioned, some
specialists
are calling for radical changes in the system.

In advance of a world congress on peer review next month in Chicago,
these specialists are suggesting that reviewers drop their anonymity
and allow comments to be published. Some are proposing that peer
reviewers be paid to ensure a more even quality of review and analysis
among all journals.

Dr. Drummond Rennie, who relies on review as deputy editor of JAMA,
the
Journal of the American Medical Association, said of the process,
''The
more we look into it, the harder it is to prove whether it does good
or
bad."

Rennie has called for greater study of whether peer review improves
research, and he has a personal policy of disclosing his name when he
reviews articles.

''It would be lovely to start anew and to set up a trial of peer
review
against no peer review," Rennie said. ''But no journal is willing to
risk it."

Rennie's journal published the study, which said that subsequent
research had found that almost one-third of the top papers that
appeared in top journals over a 13-year period from 1990 to 2003, had
been either contradicted or found to have potentially exaggerated
results. All the articles had undergone vigorous peer review, leading
to questions about whether problems should have been caught by
reviewers.

The author of that study, Dr. John Ioannidis, an adjunct professor at
the Tufts University School of Medicine, said that flaws in the system
were not solely responsible for the problems with the initial studies,
but he said that they may be ''part of the puzzle" that should be
examined to improve research.

Ioannidis has proposed making peer reviews public so that ''one could
see whether someone said, 'This is a great study, publish it,' or
whether there was constructive scientific thinking, comment and
criticism." He noted that he could not examine any peer reviews,
including those for the hormone replacement and Vitamin E studies,
because of the confidentiality surrounding peer review.

Under the system of peer review, a researcher submits findings to a
journal for publication. Along with a review by editors, the article
is
sent to several specialists in the field.

These reviewers are not paid for their time, their names are usually
not published, and their comments usually remain secret. They are
usually not allowed to contact the researchers directly to ask
questions, and they do not try to replicate the research.

The system has often had successes; many journal editors say peer
review has saved countless prominent scientists from publishing
seriously flawed work, and has spared the public from following
mistaken medical advice.

But peer review also lacks consistent standards. Procedures vary among
the world's 10,000 or so journals. A peer reviewer often spends about
four hours reviewing research that may have taken months or years to
complete, but the amount of time spent on a review and the expertise
of
the reviewer can differ greatly, especially at lesser-known journals.

''It has been bandied about as a sort of 'Good Housekeeping Seal of
Approval,' " said Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England
Journal of Medicine. ''It is only as good as the peer reviewers and
editors."

The increasing focus on peer review will be highlighted next month,
when dozens of journal editors and specialists in peer review meet in
Chicago. Dozens of papers will be presented on topics that include
whether peer review adds value, and whether conflict-of-interest rules
are working.

J=2E Scott Armstrong, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania
who
has spent years analyzing peer review, has voiced hope that the
conference will lead to radical change in the way journals conduct
peer
review. The system, he said, is outdated and outmoded.

Pointing to a move by some journals to put their information on the
Internet and to publish the names of reviewers, he predicts that the
current system of anonymous reviewers will be replaced by a version of
Amazon.com, in which scientists from around the world contribute their
thoughts to constantly updated research.

Change is not likely to come, however, at the upcoming Fifth
International Congress on Peer Review and Biomedical Publication. That
gathering is intended as a forum for discussion, rather than
decision-making.

There is no governing body that defines what constitutes good peer
review, or that demands that certain standards be followed.

Moreover, some of the editors at some of the large journals are not
eager to change the system. Dr. Jeffrey Drazen, who is the editor of
the New England Journal of Medicine, said he supports keeping the
review system anonymous and unpaid.

''We don't think the system is broken and needs to be overhauled,"
Drazen said.

Drazen also said peer review is not necessarily at fault when a study
is not replicated by subsequent research. ''As a scientist, the things
that give me the most joy is when someone is able to replicate
something I published," Drazen said. ''That means that you got it
right. But sometimes people cannot replicate things. It is a mistake
to
view it as black and white . . . if you do a second study but can't
replicate the primary findings, it doesn't necessarily mean the
original research was wrong."

Ioannidis, the author of the study on flawed research, said he had
examined articles from top journals published from 1990 to 2003, and
had found that 16 percent of those studies were later contradicted,
and
that another 16 percent were not found to have had as strong a result
in subsequent research.

Many factors led to the conflicting results, he said, including the
fact that scientific research is often updated when larger or
better-controlled trials are conducted. But flaws in the initial
studies, including integrity and methodology, could not be ruled out.

Some journals are trying to improve the system by making themselves
more open to the public. The Public Library of Science publishes a
magazine called PLOS Medicine, which charges authors $1,500 per
article
but which provides its journals online for free.

PLOS Medicine also encourages peer reviewers to reveal their identity,
but it does not demand it.

The journal's senior editor, Barbara Cohen, said some reviewers want
anonymity out of concern about retribution, which she described as
''you trashed my paper at Nature, now I'm trashing yours at Science,"
referring to two leading journals.

Cohen also said she is sympathetic to younger peer reviewers who fear
that providing criticism of a senior person in the field will hurt
their career. This is a common complaint among reviewers.

But given the high number of studies that end up either wrong or
deeply
flawed, much of the medical profession is looking for new ways to
examine research.

Armstrong, the professor who has read dozens of studies on peer
review,
cited numerous embarrassing incidents that he said had called the peer
review process into question.

In one study, for example, researchers submitted a plagiarized paper
to
110 journals, but only two publications recognized the problem.

In another study, researchers examined 18 papers that had been
published in peer-reviewed journals by a person who later admitted
scientific fraud; they found that 16 of the papers had an average of
12
errors each.

One such error was that ''the father in one family had his first child
at age eight and the next at age nine," Armstrong wrote.

Michael Kranish can be reached at kranish @globe.com.

Now, do tell us exactly what part of that you do not understand.

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
D. C. Sessions - 16 Jul 2008 14:41 GMT
> Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre.

Well then, that's that.  Proof by confident assertion.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
The One True Zhen Jue - 16 Jul 2008 22:03 GMT
> In article <25ddcb36-3bcf-4e58-9a16-89e0f3f84...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of conventional medicine are willing to forego their training in anatomy
> and physiology in order to embrace a belief in "meridians" and "qi."

Oh, it is to laugh!  The truth is so offensive to you that you employ
denial to help you cope.  Too bad, you're lack of maturity has no
affect on reality.  Acupuncture is taught at Harvard, Stanford, Duke,
and many other prestigeous Medical Universities.  It is offered at
Johns Hopkins & the Mayo Clinic.  It is provided to the USAF by no
less than 40 MD's plus several LAcs.  Even your employer does research
on Acupuncture.  It is everywhere YOU want to be, Richard Schultz!

> I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence that conventional
> medicine has embraced (in the sense of providing positive evidence for
> the efficacy of acupuncture according to the same standards to which other
> treatments are held) the efficacy of acupuncture as a treatment for
> nicotine addiction or Guillain-Barresyndrome.  

Clinical observations on 38 cases with Guillain-Barre Syndrome treated
with acupuncture combined with medicine. Zou, H. , Inter J Clin Acup
2001, Vol.12(2) p. 171-174

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu