Medical Forum / General / Alternative / July 2008
Peter Piper Polio -> Whatever Happened to the Polio "Epidemic"?
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Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 02:54 GMT A number of gullible aunties on this group, studiously ignoring the growing evidence for the efficacy of alternative systems of medicine, nevertheless seem to hold dear their own set of beliefs, for example the notion that the Polio vaccine erradicated the polio "epidemic".
There are so many fallacies, false turns and deceptions concealed in this simplistic but easily believed and widely held opinion, once held as almost axiomatic by I myself, that the shock of exposing the truth can be upsetting, PARTICULARLY to the narrow minded old biddies who have STILL been unable, over their stale tea and afternoon gossip sessions amongst themselves while shaking their heads to acknowledge that Acupuncture is here to stay, that Homeopathy is advancing in power and prestige as research laboriously and finally begins to focus on the elusive atomic level behaviours that vindicate it, and that nothing can shake their "draw a line in the sand rooster-like hypnosis" opinions on the efficacy of the old time vaccination methods which have somehow invaded our advanced century CONTINUING their masquerade of munificence and efficacy while in fact wreaking enough widespread harm and damage as to gradually have come to the attention of nearly everyone that all is not hallowed and perhaps may be somewhat hollow in the temple of vaccination.
Our first comment will be regarding the Salk and Sabin vaccines: The Salk vaccine apparently contained a monkey virus which caused some problems and there were NUMEROUS deleterious instances and ill effects from the early injected version of the vaccine.
Sabin came up with his oral "sugar cube" vaccine which seemed to work better and eventually replaced the Salk injected version.
The difference between the two was that the Salk vaccine contained an inactivated Polio virus while the Sabin vaccine contained one that was substantially more lively... so lively in fact that a number of people, especially those with compromised immune systems caught .... (surprise!) polio from the vaccine!
Now there is the famous polio epidemic of the 1940's and 50's which was supposedly STOPPED by the polio vaccines which we have mentioned above.
Well... that might be or it might not, but one wonders what got the old polio epidemic started in the first place? I am currently slowly and laboriously reviewing statistics about it and it almost appears as thought the upsurge in the polio epidemic came AFTER the polio vaccines were introduced, rather than before.
Likewise which of the two polio vaccines worked better and HOW were they made ( the aunties will make a monkey out of themselves when they read about it)
See documents such as THIS ONE: www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf for details.
Everywhere I look, once one goes past the easily "convincing" numbers "proving" efficacy of the polio vaccines to all who will surrender their doubts and concerns, there are underlying questions, fallacies, anamolies, more questions, mysterious failures of the vaccine, open questions about if it was REALLY NEEDED in the first place and a plethora of problems concerning the possibility of deleterious consequences from still earlier vaccines.
Regarding the recent drive to administer the polio vaccine to children in India, I draw the Aunties' attention to the following remark from the Times of India April 19 2008 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Patna/Blitzkrieg_to_battle_vicious_vir us/articleshow/2962700.cms
"Blitzkrieg to battle vicious virus" "Instances when a child has had a viral attack of polio despite being administered oral polio vaccine (OPV) has led to questions about the drug’s efficacy. But as Unicef polio coordinator Anisur Rehman Siddique explains, everything depends on the nutritional status of the child being administered polio drops."Undernourished children cannot produce good anti-body. As a result, the vaccine becomes ineffective. About 54.3% children are victims of malnutrition and hence the failure rate."
Doc Schultz had contemptuously dismissed my earlier comments in another thread regarding the aspect of nutrition and sanitation in consideration of polio and the above quotes indicates his complete lack of experience and knowledge in this area and his unfortunate tendency to focus so completely on statistics as to abandon all common sense and reason. We may therefore DISMISS his comments and assertions of authority of pro polio vaccine statistics until perhaps he is able to produce properly reasoned objections.
The document at THIS link: www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf
already mentioned, goes into a number of interesting issues including an analysis of the monkey virus found in the early polio vaccines, the possibility that the polio "epidemic" was caused by weakened immune systems brought about by other vaccinations just coming into popularity in that era, the statistics involved INCREASED POLIO CASES AFTER ADMINSITRATION OF THE VACCINES RATHER THAN BEFORE, and information regarding the disappearance of the polio "epidemic" at about the same time, in the U.S. and Europe... EVEN in European countries which did not use the vaccines(!?).
It is issues such as these, rather than D.C.'s or Doc Schultz's easily repeated and convincing statistics in favour of the vaccines which leads me to raise these questions which are of great concern to EVERY PARENT and to citizens everywhere in the struggle to protect ourselves and our loved ones from the medical totalitarianism of these times.
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 14:12 GMT > A number of gullible aunties on this group, > studiously ignoring the growing evidence for the [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
Richard Schultz - 11 Jul 2008 15:25 GMT : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties. What exactly do you think that proves?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot."
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 17:53 GMT > In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > > : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties. > > What exactly do you think that proves? That you have, as THIS RESPONSE indicates, NO RESPONSE.
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 06:34 GMT :> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
:> What exactly do you think that proves?
: That you have, as THIS RESPONSE indicates, NO RESPONSE. And does your consistent and absolute refusal to respond to *any* post that presents evidence against your claims prove that you have NO RESPONSE?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 13:16 GMT > In article <02b9461f-0d93-4d68-b166-2fa67e952...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > :> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And does your consistent and absolute refusal to respond to *any* post > that presents evidence against your claims prove that you have NO RESPONSE? Still no response, but your next post rectifies that.
Let us proceed to it.
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 13:46 GMT :> In article <02b9461f-0d93-4d68-b166-2fa67e952...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: :> :> In article <2ad2b987-c573-4071-9a0c-c4bb9aa71...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> :> : DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties.
:> :> What exactly do you think that proves?
:> : That you have, as THIS RESPONSE indicates, NO RESPONSE.
:> And does your consistent and absolute refusal to respond to *any* post :> that presents evidence against your claims prove that you have NO RESPONSE? : Still no response, but your next post rectifies that. Did you fail to notice that you did not answer the question that you were asked, or did you deliberately not answer it?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Peter Moran - 11 Jul 2008 21:53 GMT >DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties. PM WHile I thought it was mostly bullshit in relation to present vaccines and present vaccine policy, I didn't have enough information to hand about the specific points raised to respond, and your opinions are not likely to make many sit up and take notice, anyway.
BTW, contrast my reluctance to go off half-cocked with your apparent tendency to assume anything must be true if you can find it in print. It merely has to run counter to general scientific opinion. You don't even seem to be able to conceive that some issues might be unsettled and controversial -- anything that seemd to rubbish vaccines or authentic scientific opinion can trigger a bout of your ridiculously inappropriate triumphalism.
PM
Jan Drew - 11 Jul 2008 22:58 GMT Citizen Jimserac - 12 Jul 2008 03:00 GMT > >DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > PM
> >DAY 1 - No response from the Aunties. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > PM inappropriate triumphalism!!!!!
I like it and shall add it to my list but you still do not trump Bowditch's "semantically vacuous"!
Well, now that I have your attention, would you care to COMMENT on the matter at hand, on the possibility of deleterious impact on the immune system of vaccines, on the POSSIBILITY of a connection between the vaccine program started in 1911 and the "spanish", "avian", "pig", or whatever it was influenza epidemic of 1918?
The BLIND ACCEPTANCE that these things are good and the casual connection between the disappearance of the epidemic after the administration of the vaccines are things I believe should be questioned because the strident assertion and reassertion of the "proof" should not used to STOP ALL THINKING on the possibility of alternatives, as any good scientist, like YOU, knows.
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 03:38 GMT > Well, now that I have your attention, would you > care to COMMENT on the matter at hand, on the possibility > of deleterious impact on the immune system of vaccines, > on the POSSIBILITY of a connection between the vaccine > program started in 1911 and the "spanish", "avian", "pig", > or whatever it was influenza epidemic of 1918? Why are you trying to change the subject away from polio?
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
D. C. Sessions - 11 Jul 2008 15:21 GMT > Well... that might be or it might not, but one wonders what got the > old polio epidemic started in the first place? Ah -- the argument from ignorance. Others, who have actually studied the matter, don't have your advantage.
> I am currently slowly > and laboriously reviewing statistics about it and it almost appears as > thought the upsurge in the polio epidemic came AFTER the polio > vaccines were introduced, rather than before. Polio vaccines were introduced before 1916?
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 17:57 GMT > In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Polio vaccines were introduced before 1916? First off, D.C., if you hope to keep up with me you WILL have to keep up with current research.
Here is your reading list, GET TO WORK!!
http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-High-Dilution-Physiology-Physics/dp/0792326768/ref=c m_lmf_tit_1_rdsssl1 Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics (Hardcover) by P.C. Endler (Editor), J. Schulte (Editor) Product Description "This is the first multidisciplinary work to address in a serious and strictly scientific way the hows and whys underlying the actions of ultra high dilutions (UHD). The contributions, all of them written by leading scientists in the fields of physics, physiology and biophysics, present an overview of UHD research which, to some extent, has been stimulated by the recognition of the therapeutic efficacy of homoeopathy."
http://www.amazon.com/Signals-Images-Madeleine-Bastide/dp/0792344669/ref=cm_lmf_ tit_2_rdsss Signals and Images (Hardcover) by Madeleine Bastide (Editor) "Scholars have documented the resistance to novel scientific discovery by various groups, such as economic and religious groups..." Product Description "Scientists challenging dominant paradigms are either ignored or attacked by the scientific mainstream. This book, however, contains a selection of scientific papers presented at the two last GIRI meetings (International Research Group on Very Low Dose and High Dilution Effects). The majority of these papers present results performed with succussed high dilutions (homeopathic dilutions), even beyond the Avogrado number. All presented models are classified, and their interpretation is possible either in the mechanistic paradigm or in an information paradigm. This new field of research introduces new scientific concepts which are supported by experimental results. Furthermore, this nascent science is totally concerned with living organisms and, as such, it becomes necessary to define `information' brought by non-molecular high dilutions. This book presents brain- storming work of this research group and is one of the starting points of a scientific evolution."
Ultra low doses: Biological and clinical applications (Hardcover) by C. Doutremepuich (Author) "In both experiments intestinal transit was significantly accelerated (p<0.01) only by Neostigmine..." (more) Key Phrases: stained basophils, histamine dilutions, arsenious anhydride, New York, Coultronics France, Stago France http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-low-doses-Biological-applications/dp/0748400214/ref= cm_lmf_tit_5_rdsssl1
Now... to RETURN to the topic, you comments IF ANY are invited on one of the papers cited in the post regarding polio vaccines and polio itself: http://www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf
I will OF COURSE immediately start quoting major sections of this document in response to any attempts to change the subject. Proby, don't even bother, I'm ignoring your posts and every else seems to be too (sorry, hope this can change when you get back to posting some good information and reasoning).
D.C.? Doc S? change the subject anyone?
Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 12 Jul 2008 02:28 GMT >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Here is your reading list, GET TO WORK!! <snip reference to a book about homeopathy, which has nothing to do with when polio vaccines were introduced>
<snip reference to another book about homeopathy, which has nothing to do with when polio vaccines were introduced>
<snip reference to a third book about homeopathy, which has nothing to do with when polio vaccines were introduced>
>Now... to RETURN to the topic, you comments >IF ANY are invited on one of the papers cited in the >post regarding polio vaccines and polio itself: >http://www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf Where it says "Beginning in the 1950s, these vaccines were administered to millions of people in the United States and throughout the world".
>I will OF COURSE immediately start quoting major >sections of this document in response to any >attempts to change the subject. Perhaps you could quote the part where it says "Beginning in the 1950s, these vaccines were administered to millions of people in the United States and throughout the world". That should tell us how many polio vaccines were introduced before 1916.
> Proby, don't >even bother, I'm ignoring your posts [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Citizen Jimserac
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew - 12 Jul 2008 04:36 GMT "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
Citizen Jimserac - 12 Jul 2008 19:15 GMT SNIP!!!!
Just wanted to see how YOU handled off topic stuff.
Know I know!!!
SNIP!!!!
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 13 Jul 2008 10:06 GMT >SNIP!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Citizen Jimserac Your control problem acting up again?
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 13:15 GMT > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:15:22 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Your control problem acting up again? Martin!!!! Long time no compoute!!
Good to have you back.
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 13 Jul 2008 15:34 GMT >> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:15:22 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Citizen Jimserac I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied?
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 16:10 GMT >>Martin!!!! Long time no compoute!! >> >>Good to have you back. > > I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any > longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied? Jan is his role model.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2008 04:51 GMT Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 19:14 GMT > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any > longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied? That's it! It's the old Martin!!!
Er... by the way Martin... I'm really curious, you've been absent from this newsgroup for QUITE SOME TIME and I was just wondering what brought you back???
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 14 Jul 2008 19:22 GMT >> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >Citizen Jimserac I can tell you that it wasn't you. You're still a despicable anti-vaccination liar who is oblivious to facts. Being part of the woowoo world where your buddies support you no matter how vile the nonsense you spout makes you feel so warm and fuzzie there is nothing I can do or say that'll change the wiring of the few neurons you have.
Citizen Jimserac - 14 Jul 2008 23:29 GMT > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > nonsense you spout makes you feel so warm and fuzzie there is nothing > I can do or say that'll change the wiring of the few neurons you have. Martin, you can't imagine how enjoyable it is to listen to your comments. You are SO MUCH more direct than that Proby dullard, though there are some common denominators.
Now the thing I would like to inquire more about is your comment about my woo buddies and how they "support" me. Please tell me more about this, I am really curious about this because if there's any chance that I can get some money for expressing my opinions, now THAT is news to me and I want to learn where!!!
Details please, and AGAIN, many thanks, it is a pleasure to see you back here!!
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 15 Jul 2008 22:06 GMT >> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac >> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >expressing my opinions, now THAT is news to me >and I want to learn where!!! They support you by telling you what wonderful posts you write, how incredibly smart you are etc. They make you feel such a special, intelligent person, while not having to go through all that timeconsuming stuff like learning facts. But me, being the partypooper that I am, call you, erm, something closer to the facts. When you started posting here, you started out quite reasonable but you quickly found out that you could either try to refute your opponents, which meant a lot of work (and you can't do it anyway, because I'm right) or you could just make sh.t up and receive praise regardless of what you wrote from the likes of Jan Drew, Mr. Kinghoff, Timmy Bolen etc. You choose the dark side, which is, in the words of Yoda, quicker, more tempting but certainly not stronger.
>Details please, and AGAIN, many thanks, it is >a pleasure to see you back here!! So you were lying when you said you didn't find my posts worth reading. Why am I not surprised to see an anti-vaccination liar do what they all do best - lie.
>Citizen Jimserac Jan Drew - 16 Jul 2008 02:15 GMT "Martin Rady wrote insults again, and off topic.
Jan Drew - 15 Jul 2008 04:29 GMT "Martin Rady posted nothing but insults
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 20:13 GMT :>Citizen Jimserac : : I see you were lying when you said you would not respond to me any : longer. Why am I not surprised to see that you lied? You may have missed the earlier exchange between me and D.C. Sessions, in which I expressed the opinion that since CJ apparently does not know the difference between the truth and a lie, it is perhaps inappropriate to call him a "liar."
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 21:21 GMT > :>Citizen Jimserac > : [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the difference between the truth and a lie, it is perhaps inappropriate > to call him a "liar." I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he doesn't know the difference, only that he doesn't pay even the liar's deference to the truth.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 21:51 GMT > In message <g5dk52$32...@news.iucc.ac.il>, Richard Schultz wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > difference, only that he doesn't pay even the liar's > deference to the truth. Guillain-Barre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 22:13 GMT >> In message <g5dk52$32...@news.iucc.ac.il>, Richard Schultz wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Guillain-Barre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think "George Bush" is the G-B that comes closer to you.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 14 Jul 2008 02:00 GMT > In message <50d7ba08-3b1d-4c46-8fbc-8a65e3789...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I think "George Bush" is the G-B that comes closer to you. Ooohhh!!! Now that is a really bad insult!!! Oh that smarts, being compared to Chimsky the great "decider". Ouch!!
Citizen Jimserac
Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2008 04:55 GMT Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2008 04:53 GMT D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 03:03 GMT >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-High-Dilution-Physiology-Physics/dp/0792326768/ref=c m_lmf_tit_1_rdsssl1 > Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics (Hardcover) ... which has nothing to do with the polio epidemic of 1916.
> http://www.amazon.com/Signals-Images-Madeleine-Bastide/dp/0792344669/ref=cm_lmf_ tit_2_rdsss > Signals and Images (Hardcover) Another attempt to change the subject from the polio epidemic of 1916.
> Ultra low doses: Biological and clinical applications (Hardcover) A third attempt to change the subject from the polio epidemic of 1916.
> Now... to RETURN to the topic, you comments > IF ANY are invited on one of the papers cited in the > post regarding polio vaccines and polio itself: > http://www.redflagsdaily.com/conferences/vaccines/files/Man239_251.pdf And still nothing about the vaccines that you claim caused the polio epidemic of 1916.
> I will OF COURSE immediately start quoting major > sections of this document in response to any > attempts to change the subject. And apparently just to be sure, you'll change it yourself.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 11 Jul 2008 18:24 GMT > In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Polio vaccines were introduced before 1916? OH NO, my dear D.C., but (surprise!!) they had OTHER vaccines. Here, read... Read of the politics of fear behind vaccines.
http://www.vran.org/vaccines/flu-bird/flu-hyst1918.htm
VACCINES: INFLUENZA - 2005
Recreating the 1918-19 “Spanish” Flu epidemic hysteria
compiled by Ingri Cassel
"As the bird flu hype intensifies, suddenly people who had never heard of it before remember the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 as if it just happened. It’s interesting how the modern remembrance of the 1918 outbreak, being leaked into our minds from the CDC through the mainstream media, is dramatically exaggerated from doctored historical accounts."
For instance, an Associated Press story from 1997 cited a study done by the Armed Forces Institute under the leadership of Dr. Jeffery K. Taubenberger. Taubenberger, et al., analyzed specimens from some of the 43,000 servicemen that died as a result of the “Spanish” flu and had been preserved in formaldehyde and wax for future studies. It was theorized that “the virus … is a mutation that evolved in American pigs and was spread around the globe by U.S. troops mobilized for World War I.”
"Regarding flu epidemiology, pigs may have wings
In February, 2004, the BBC reported that British scientists determined that the strain of flu virus responsible for the 1918-19 “Spanish” flu pandemic was an avian virus that had mutated. This information was determined by exhuming bodies from villages within 700 miles of the north pole from people who had died during the 1918-19 flu pandemic.
Is the reason for this confusion due to the fact that the existence of viruses was known but not isolated and categorized until after 1933, the year the electron microscope was invented? Some articles from the late 90s even theorize that the virus originated in birds that infected pigs that then infected humans. Hmmm…"
"1918 death toll still rising
Another problem is the evolving numbers of people who were infected with the “Spanish” flu and the numbers of people who actually died. An “AP Statistics Lab” claims that 25 million people died worldwide from the 1918 flu pandemic with half a million dying in the U.S. The CDC claimed in 1999 (Preparing for the Next Influenza Pandemic) that 20 million people died worldwide from the 1918 flu pandemic but now claims, in 2005, that the death toll was 50 million worldwide. Another article justifies these discrepancies by saying that anywhere from 20 million to 100 million people died worldwide during the 1918-19 flu pandemic. Aside from this “official” confusion, it is clear that the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Bush administration are using recreated 1918 flu pandemic history to sound the alarm justifying the $4 billion tagged onto a defense spending bill passed by the Senate September 24, 2005."
"Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), with the backing of Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nevada), wants the government to spend nearly $3.1 billion to stockpile enough doses of an anti-viral pharma drugs (not vitamin C or oregano oil) for half the U.S. population. If half the current U.S. population (not counting the illegal immigrants) were to “benefit” from this boondoggle, it amounts to $21 for each anti- viral dose administered at taxpayer expense."
"Learning from the past
Historians puzzle over the virulence of the “Spanish” flu versus deadly medical treatments used nearly 90 years ago. According to medical researcher Jim West, chloroform was used as a preservative in several orthodox cough syrups in 1918 and would convert to highly poisonous phosgene when oxidized, causing liver failure and various cancers."
"Patrick J. Carroll wrote a piece in the August 5, 2003 edition of The Irish Examiner recounting relatively unknown vaccine history. He claimed that a report from then U.S. Secretary of War Henry L Stimson verified 63 deaths and 28,585 cases of hepatitis as a direct result of the WWI yellow fever vaccination program of only six months duration. Yellow Fever vaccination was only one of the 14 to 25 shots given to army recruits. Quoting from the article that can be accessed at http://www.vaclib.org/news/vaccinenotflu.htm"
“Army records also reveal that after vaccination became compulsory in the U.S. Army in 1911, not only did typhoid increase rapidly but all other vaccinal diseases increased at an alarming rate. After America entered the war in 1917, the death rate from typhoid vaccination rose to the highest point in the history of the U.S. Army. The deaths occurred after the shots were given in sanitary American hospitals and well-supervised army camps in France, where sanitation had been practiced for years."
“The report of the Surgeon-General of the U.S. Army shows that during 1917 there were admitted into the army hospitals 19,608 men suffering from anti-typhoid inoculation and vaccinia. This takes no account of those whose vaccine diseases were attributed to other causes."
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 02:30 GMT >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Recreating the 1918-19 ?Spanish? Flu epidemic hysteria [snip]
None of which relates to the vaccines which you propose to be the cause of the 1916 polio epidemic -- in fact, you haven't identified even one, much less the one(s) whose discontinuance you credit with the end of polio in the Western Hemisphere.
Oh, dear.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Peter Bowditch - 12 Jul 2008 02:31 GMT >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >compiled by Ingri Cassel <snip amazing collection of lies fantasising about things that happened AFTER 1916>
When did 1917 come before 1916?
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 02:59 GMT >>> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > When did 1917 come before 1916? Others have posted about how the Amazing Evil of Vaccines can travel through space to afflict people other than those vaccinated. Well, CJ is just taking that a step farther to show that the Mojo Malo can also travel back in time.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 12 Jul 2008 19:16 GMT > CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > When did 1917 come before 1916? Sorry Bowie, can't change the subject away from the VACCINES that started be given in the army in 1911!!!
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 12 Jul 2008 23:46 GMT >> CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> In message <c0205be7-a656-4921-9f4c-eead6acf7...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > away from the VACCINES that started > be given in the army in 1911!!! And that has ... what? to do with the 1916 polio epidemic?
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 01:55 GMT > In message <25ee32ea-e46d-4a19-93a2-bc42261cf...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > And that has ... what? to do with the 1916 polio epidemic? Possibly made it possible by compromising the immune systems and health of the soldiers. You saw the illness statistics of the soldiers in the web link. That conclusion is speculative but a possibility. It must be considered.
I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness. Or do you? Does politics win out over modern research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio? Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the possibility that it was Guillain Barre?
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 02:56 GMT >> In message <25ee32ea-e46d-4a19-93a2-bc42261cf...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > in the web link. That conclusion is speculative > but a possibility. It must be considered. No, actually, it isn't worth considering for one simple reason: the 1916 polio epidemic was not confined to soldiers who were stationed in areas where yellow fever was prevalent.
In other words, you're blowing smoke.
> I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc > and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness. It's irrelevant. Maybe it was polio, maybe it wasn't. The bottom line is that there were a LOT of people affected, and most of them didn't have chauffeurs.
> Or do you? Does politics win out over modern > research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio? It's far from certain either way. Mostly it's a diversion from the fact that your thread topic is total bullshit.
> Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the > possibility that it was Guillain Barre? I know people who've had GB, and FDRs symptoms don't fit that any better than they do polio. Mostly it's about as relevant as whether Alexander the Great died of West Nile fever.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 05:23 GMT > In message <e48cebdb-1d1e-4dd2-b9c6-8fbfffb53...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > In other words, you're blowing smoke. OK, it looks to me like you've got a good objection there, I'll check it out.
> > I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc > > and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness. > > It's irrelevant. Maybe it was polio, maybe it wasn't. > The bottom line is that there were a LOT of people > affected, and most of them didn't have chauffeurs. Not to the "March of Dimes" and the national campaign to BURN INTO EVERY YOUNG MIND (AND OLD) the absolute necessity for a unified acceptance of the absolute efficacy and inviolate applicability of vaccinations.
> > Or do you? Does politics win out over modern > > research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio? > > It's far from certain either way. Mostly it's a > diversion from the fact that your thread topic is > total bullshit. I see that you have chosen then, to respond to a thread of total bullshit. HOW VERY REVEALING!
> > Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the > > possibility that it was Guillain Barre? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about as relevant as whether Alexander the Great died > of West Nile fever. Is THAT the extent of you diagnostic abilities? You KNOW some people? Conversationally interesting, though. OK.
Nice try, but a strikeout..
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 13 Jul 2008 14:50 GMT >> In message <e48cebdb-1d1e-4dd2-b9c6-8fbfffb53...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote:
>> > I see you did NOT embarass yourself as did Doc >> > and Bowie, by contesting the FDR non polio illness. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > necessity for a unified acceptance of the absolute > efficacy and inviolate applicability of vaccinations. If that's your excuse, its all the more irrelevant because "FDR as a polio victim" wasn't part of the "march of dimes." He *sponsored* it, but his paralysis was very carefully kept out of the public eye.
Again, totally beside the point. Which is, since you seem to have forgotten, your silly notion that vaccines cause polio epidemics. If so, again, what vaccine has been removed from use to cause the end of polio in the Western Hemisphere?
>> > Or do you? Does politics win out over modern >> > research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I see that you have chosen then, to respond > to a thread of total bullshit. HOW VERY REVEALING! Only that I take Edmund Burke's admonishion to heart.
>> > Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the >> > possibility that it was Guillain Barre? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You KNOW some people? Conversationally > interesting, though. OK. Aside from the juvenile "I WIN! I WIN!" that seems to be your reason for posting, please consider that I just *might* have gone a bit deeper into the relative symptoms than that (notably, GB does not usually have an onset coincident with infection and the paralysis is usually temporary, to name two.)
Barring histological analysis, it's impossible now to know what really did happen to FDR -- and, frankly, it doesn't really matter.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 06:42 GMT :> Or do you? Does politics win out over modern :> research that concludes that FDR did NOT have polio? : : It's far from certain either way. You don't understand -- CJ got it from a REAL SCIENTIST [tm], so it must be true!
:> Is it politically incorrect to even bring up the :> possibility that it was Guillain Barre? : : I know people who've had GB, and FDRs symptoms don't : fit that any better than they do polio. I only know one personally (plus I've read about Joseph Heller's bout with it, although not his memoir). AFAIK, G-B is basically completely debilitating (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her life flat on her back incapable of doing just about anything).
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 13:26 GMT > In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her life flat on > her back incapable of doing just about anything). Well, not asking for any more FDR tissue samples, eh? Good.
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 13 Jul 2008 13:48 GMT :> I only know one personally (plus I've read about Joseph Heller's bout with :> it, although not his memoir). AFAIK, G-B is basically completely :> debilitating (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her :> life flat on her back incapable of doing just about anything).
: Well, not asking for any more FDR tissue samples, eh? Good. I'm still waiting for you to provide such a tissue sample, which would certainly go much further in proving your hypothesis than anything that you've written so far has.
In the meantime, you failed, once again, to respond to the point being made, namely, that FDR's symptoms do not match those of G-B Syndrome.
Tell me, do you have a Boy Scout on call for when you want to cross the street?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_
The One True Zhen Jue - 13 Jul 2008 14:07 GMT > In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (the woman I know who had it basically spent a year of her life flat on > her back incapable of doing just about anything). She and Joseph Heller should have sought treatment with TCM.
> ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." Martin - 13 Jul 2008 15:37 GMT >> In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >She and Joseph Heller should have sought treatment with TCM. You're going to claim acupuncture can cure AIDS next, right?
The One True Zhen Jue - 13 Jul 2008 18:01 GMT > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:07:06 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > You're going to claim acupuncture can cure AIDS next, right?- Hide quoted text - You're about as good a psychic as you are a skeptic. And, AIDS is not the topic.
BTW, have you had any luck coping since you found out how widespread acupuncture's acceptance is? Have you had any luck in banning acupuncture, reducing its acceptance, or even slowing its growth? Please keep us posted on your personal progress.
> - Show quoted text - Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jul 2008 19:16 GMT On Jul 13, 1:01 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:07:06 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > acupuncture, reducing its acceptance, or even slowing its growth? > Please keep us posted on your personal progress. I'm sorry you must avoid the use of multi-syllabic words and complicated concepts when dealing with Martin.
And, what a DELIGHT that he decided to come back just now, while other aunties were getting their a.ses KICKED (figuratively speaking of course).
What a "coincidence".
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 14 Jul 2008 19:18 GMT >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> In article <ov3ok5-jgg....@news.lumbercartel.com>, D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >acupuncture, reducing its acceptance, or even slowing its growth? >Please keep us posted on your personal progress. How about this: I've had as much success there as you have had with finding evidence that acupuncture works.
The One True Zhen Jue - 14 Jul 2008 20:47 GMT > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > How about this: I've had as much success there as you have had with > finding evidence that acupuncture works.- Hide quoted text - Translated from Martin-speak "I've had no success and will never agree with conventional medicine's warm embrace of acupuncture efficacy" Spoken like a true believer with a wide streak of fatalism. Such is the dilemna of being Martin.
> - Show quoted text - Richard Schultz - 15 Jul 2008 05:53 GMT : Translated from Martin-speak "I've had no success and will never agree : with conventional medicine's warm embrace of acupuncture efficacy" Conventional medicine has not "warmly embraced" acupuncture efficacy. *Some* practitioners of conventional medicine are willing to accept acupuncture's placebo effects in certain cases, and *some* practitioners of conventional medicine are willing to forego their training in anatomy and physiology in order to embrace a belief in "meridians" and "qi."
I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence that conventional medicine has embraced (in the sense of providing positive evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture according to the same standards to which other treatments are held) the efficacy of acupuncture as a treatment for nicotine addiction or Guillain-Barre syndrome. For that matter, I'm waiting for you to provide any evidence that you've read the critical review that I cited, in which a *long* list of conditions for which acupuncture's efficacy has *not* been proven is given, or the osteoarthritis study that you cite as evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture but that in fact doesn't.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"
Citizen Jimserac - 15 Jul 2008 12:52 GMT > In article <25ddcb36-3bcf-4e58-9a16-89e0f3f84...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of conventional medicine are willing to forego their training in anatomy > and physiology in order to embrace a belief in "meridians" and "qi." DOC QUIXOTE POSTS AGAIN!!
See the otherwise rational scientist go bonkers over trying to demonstrate Acupuncture as placebo! Watch in amazement as he ignores scientific confirmation of the existence of meridians and points in order to focus ALL his attention on some pathetic sham acupuncture studies... Gaze in astonishment as MAJOR PORTIONS of his thinking faculties are SHUT DOWN in order to maintain his delusion of inviolate pretentious "omniscience"... All happening now in THIS forum!
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 15 Jul 2008 13:48 GMT : See the otherwise rational scientist go bonkers over trying to : demonstrate Acupuncture as placebo! Here's a question that can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no" (and hence will remain unanswered):
Have you read the article "Acupuncture -- a critical review," which was written by a professor in a department of *complementary medicine*, and which concludes inter alia that "the majority of RCTs employing new sham-acupuncture devices that allow adequate control of placebo effects imply that acupuncture is not associated with clinical effects beyond a powerful placebo response"?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 16 Jul 2008 12:08 GMT Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre.
Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 16 Jul 2008 12:42 GMT >Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre. And you know this how?
Have you informed the Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt Institute of the mistake on their web site. http://www.feri.org
>Citizen Jimserac
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Richard Schultz - 16 Jul 2008 12:51 GMT : Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre. It's good to know that you know more than medical doctors about medicine.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 16 Jul 2008 17:10 GMT > In article <b55d187a-06cd-4119-9aff-d2879e90d...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." It's good to know that you don't know more than the medical doctors that wrote the peer reviewed paper that FDR actually had Guillian- Barre.
Citizen Jimserac Neither do you.
Peter Bowditch - 17 Jul 2008 02:56 GMT >> In article <b55d187a-06cd-4119-9aff-d2879e90d...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >that wrote the peer reviewed paper that FDR actually had Guillian- >Barre. No, they wrote an article published in a journal of BIOGRAPHY in which they stated that applying a post hoc statistical process to a single event gave them cause to think something.
I have a friend who appears to suffer from identical symptoms to those exhibited by FDR. I look forward to the peer-reviewed research using Bayesian statistical methods which prove that FDR was paralysed due to severe untreated spina bifida which resulted in damage to the spinal cord.
I know someone else who appears to suffer from identical symptoms to those exhibited by FDR. I look forward to the peer-reviewed research using Bayesian statistical methods which prove that FDR was paralysed due to cerebral palsy.
Have you contacted the Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt Institute yet?
>Citizen Jimserac >Neither do you.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew - 17 Jul 2008 06:08 GMT "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote anecdotes:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/msg/b47238df12888f43
Anecdotes are not facts. They are, at best interesting stories. At worst, outright lies.
Richard Schultz - 17 Jul 2008 07:38 GMT : It's good to know that you don't know more than the medical doctors : that wrote the peer reviewed paper that FDR actually had Guillian- : Barre. What part of "peer reviewed" does not equal "correct" is too hard for you to grasp? Why do you believe that medical doctors are so completely misguided that they understand neither the causes of nor the cures for diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than 60 years ago?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 17 Jul 2008 16:28 GMT > In article <834b9545-54c7-41ea-8e59-3039b4439...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." What part of the clinical symptoms indicating it WASN'T polio are too hard for YOU to grasp?
Citizen Jimserac Neither do you.
Richard Schultz - 17 Jul 2008 17:15 GMT :> What part of "peer reviewed" does not equal "correct" is too hard for :> you to grasp? Why do you believe that medical doctors are so completely :> misguided that they understand neither the causes of nor the cures for :> diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than :> 60 years ago?
: What part of the clinical symptoms indicating it WASN'T polio : are too hard for YOU to grasp? Your question has already been answered by several people, including me. On the other hand, as usual, you failed to answer either of the questions that were asked of you.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Apparently, you take me for a complete fool." "Yeah -- more or less." Bob & Ray, "Garish Summit"
Citizen Jimserac - 17 Jul 2008 22:40 GMT > In article <d221475b-8e1b-43a7-8b7c-f5f996f0a...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > On the other hand, as usual, you failed to answer either of the questions > that were asked of you. Your comments have already been refuted by several people (the authors of the cited paper) and by me.
Citizen Jimserac That's because you are one.
Richard Schultz - 18 Jul 2008 08:55 GMT :> In article <d221475b-8e1b-43a7-8b7c-f5f996f0a...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> :> What part of "peer reviewed" does not equal "correct" is too hard for :> :> you to grasp? ?Why do you believe that medical doctors are so completely :> :> misguided that they understand neither the causes of nor the cures for :> :> diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than :> :> 60 years ago?
:> : What part of the clinical symptoms indicating it WASN'T polio :> : are too hard for YOU to grasp?
:> Your question has already been answered by several people, including me. ? :> On the other hand, as usual, you failed to answer either of the questions :> that were asked of you.
: Your comments have already been refuted by several people (the authors : of the cited paper) and by me. You still haven't answered either of the questions that you were asked, and you compounded it by making a statement that is manifestly untrue. Good work.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_
Citizen Jimserac - 18 Jul 2008 13:38 GMT On Jul 18, 3:55 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz)
Waste of time exchange terminated.
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 18 Jul 2008 13:54 GMT : On Jul 18, 3:55?am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz)
: Waste of time exchange terminated. Should I add the two questions that you failed to answer to the list, or do you think that the list is long enough already? Especially since the first one goes straight to your ignorance of how science works, and the second to your willingness to defend ideas that contradict each other.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Apparently, you take me for a complete fool." "Yeah -- more or less." Bob & Ray, "Garish Summit"
Jan Drew - 19 Jul 2008 03:21 GMT > In article > <fe579482-5984-4a19-beed-d1e697c941ac@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > you compounded it by making a statement that is manifestly untrue. Good > work. Speaking of *untrue*....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/97c7fa5b19513671
Jun 13 2008
In article <08190f78-edd9-4e87-93f9-97ff1b572...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
: Oh darn it! Poor Richard will have to respond to this No he won't.
> ----- > Richard Schultz Jan Drew - 19 Jul 2008 03:09 GMT > In article > <834b9545-54c7-41ea-8e59-3039b44391a4@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > diseases, but that they can correctly diagnose someone who died more than > 60 years ago? http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/PeerREVIEW.html
http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/diseases/articles/2005/08/15/flaws_are_fou nd_in_validating_medical_studies/
Flaws are found in validating medical studies Many see need to overhaul standards for peer review By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | August 15, 2005
WASHINGTON -- They are two of the most widely publicized pieces of medical research in recent years: Reports in prestigious journals declared that women who underwent hormone replacement therapy, and people who ingested large amounts of Vitamin E, had relatively low rates of heart disease.
But after research contradicted those studies -- frustrating anyone who had followed their recommendations -- some specialists began looking at whether peer review had failed to identify serious flaws in the research.
But the specialists found that it was almost impossible to discover what had happened in the vetting process, since peer reviewers are unpaid, anonymous, and unaccountable. Moreover, their reviews are kept confidential, making it impossible to know the parameters of the reviews.
Now, after a study that sent reverberations through the medical profession by finding that almost one-third of top research articles have been either contradicted or seriously questioned, some specialists are calling for radical changes in the system.
In advance of a world congress on peer review next month in Chicago, these specialists are suggesting that reviewers drop their anonymity and allow comments to be published. Some are proposing that peer reviewers be paid to ensure a more even quality of review and analysis among all journals.
Dr. Drummond Rennie, who relies on review as deputy editor of JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association, said of the process, ''The more we look into it, the harder it is to prove whether it does good or bad."
Rennie has called for greater study of whether peer review improves research, and he has a personal policy of disclosing his name when he reviews articles.
''It would be lovely to start anew and to set up a trial of peer review against no peer review," Rennie said. ''But no journal is willing to risk it."
Rennie's journal published the study, which said that subsequent research had found that almost one-third of the top papers that appeared in top journals over a 13-year period from 1990 to 2003, had been either contradicted or found to have potentially exaggerated results. All the articles had undergone vigorous peer review, leading to questions about whether problems should have been caught by reviewers.
The author of that study, Dr. John Ioannidis, an adjunct professor at the Tufts University School of Medicine, said that flaws in the system were not solely responsible for the problems with the initial studies, but he said that they may be ''part of the puzzle" that should be examined to improve research.
Ioannidis has proposed making peer reviews public so that ''one could see whether someone said, 'This is a great study, publish it,' or whether there was constructive scientific thinking, comment and criticism." He noted that he could not examine any peer reviews, including those for the hormone replacement and Vitamin E studies, because of the confidentiality surrounding peer review.
Under the system of peer review, a researcher submits findings to a journal for publication. Along with a review by editors, the article is sent to several specialists in the field.
These reviewers are not paid for their time, their names are usually not published, and their comments usually remain secret. They are usually not allowed to contact the researchers directly to ask questions, and they do not try to replicate the research.
The system has often had successes; many journal editors say peer review has saved countless prominent scientists from publishing seriously flawed work, and has spared the public from following mistaken medical advice.
But peer review also lacks consistent standards. Procedures vary among the world's 10,000 or so journals. A peer reviewer often spends about four hours reviewing research that may have taken months or years to complete, but the amount of time spent on a review and the expertise of the reviewer can differ greatly, especially at lesser-known journals.
''It has been bandied about as a sort of 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval,' " said Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine. ''It is only as good as the peer reviewers and editors."
The increasing focus on peer review will be highlighted next month, when dozens of journal editors and specialists in peer review meet in Chicago. Dozens of papers will be presented on topics that include whether peer review adds value, and whether conflict-of-interest rules are working.
J=2E Scott Armstrong, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania who has spent years analyzing peer review, has voiced hope that the conference will lead to radical change in the way journals conduct peer review. The system, he said, is outdated and outmoded.
Pointing to a move by some journals to put their information on the Internet and to publish the names of reviewers, he predicts that the current system of anonymous reviewers will be replaced by a version of Amazon.com, in which scientists from around the world contribute their thoughts to constantly updated research.
Change is not likely to come, however, at the upcoming Fifth International Congress on Peer Review and Biomedical Publication. That gathering is intended as a forum for discussion, rather than decision-making.
There is no governing body that defines what constitutes good peer review, or that demands that certain standards be followed.
Moreover, some of the editors at some of the large journals are not eager to change the system. Dr. Jeffrey Drazen, who is the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, said he supports keeping the review system anonymous and unpaid.
''We don't think the system is broken and needs to be overhauled," Drazen said.
Drazen also said peer review is not necessarily at fault when a study is not replicated by subsequent research. ''As a scientist, the things that give me the most joy is when someone is able to replicate something I published," Drazen said. ''That means that you got it right. But sometimes people cannot replicate things. It is a mistake to view it as black and white . . . if you do a second study but can't replicate the primary findings, it doesn't necessarily mean the original research was wrong."
Ioannidis, the author of the study on flawed research, said he had examined articles from top journals published from 1990 to 2003, and had found that 16 percent of those studies were later contradicted, and that another 16 percent were not found to have had as strong a result in subsequent research.
Many factors led to the conflicting results, he said, including the fact that scientific research is often updated when larger or better-controlled trials are conducted. But flaws in the initial studies, including integrity and methodology, could not be ruled out.
Some journals are trying to improve the system by making themselves more open to the public. The Public Library of Science publishes a magazine called PLOS Medicine, which charges authors $1,500 per article but which provides its journals online for free.
PLOS Medicine also encourages peer reviewers to reveal their identity, but it does not demand it.
The journal's senior editor, Barbara Cohen, said some reviewers want anonymity out of concern about retribution, which she described as ''you trashed my paper at Nature, now I'm trashing yours at Science," referring to two leading journals.
Cohen also said she is sympathetic to younger peer reviewers who fear that providing criticism of a senior person in the field will hurt their career. This is a common complaint among reviewers.
But given the high number of studies that end up either wrong or deeply flawed, much of the medical profession is looking for new ways to examine research.
Armstrong, the professor who has read dozens of studies on peer review, cited numerous embarrassing incidents that he said had called the peer review process into question.
In one study, for example, researchers submitted a plagiarized paper to 110 journals, but only two publications recognized the problem.
In another study, researchers examined 18 papers that had been published in peer-reviewed journals by a person who later admitted scientific fraud; they found that 16 of the papers had an average of 12 errors each.
One such error was that ''the father in one family had his first child at age eight and the next at age nine," Armstrong wrote.
Michael Kranish can be reached at kranish @globe.com.
Now, do tell us exactly what part of that you do not understand.
> ----- > Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." D. C. Sessions - 16 Jul 2008 14:41 GMT > Yes, FDR actually had Guillian-Barre. Well then, that's that. Proof by confident assertion.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
The One True Zhen Jue - 16 Jul 2008 22:03 GMT > In article <25ddcb36-3bcf-4e58-9a16-89e0f3f84...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of conventional medicine are willing to forego their training in anatomy > and physiology in order to embrace a belief in "meridians" and "qi." Oh, it is to laugh! The truth is so offensive to you that you employ denial to help you cope. Too bad, you're lack of maturity has no affect on reality. Acupuncture is taught at Harvard, Stanford, Duke, and many other prestigeous Medical Universities. It is offered at Johns Hopkins & the Mayo Clinic. It is provided to the USAF by no less than 40 MD's plus several LAcs. Even your employer does research on Acupuncture. It is everywhere YOU want to be, Richard Schultz!
> I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence that conventional > medicine has embraced (in the sense of providing positive evidence for > the efficacy of acupuncture according to the same standards to which other > treatments are held) the efficacy of acupuncture as a treatment for > nicotine addiction or Guillain-Barresyndrome. Clinical observations on 38 cases with Guillain-Barre Syndrome treated with acupuncture combined with medicine. Zou, H. , Inter J Clin Acup 2001, Vol.12(2) p. 171-174
> ----- > Richard Schultz schu |
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