Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008
Trick Or Treatment? Alternative Medicine On Trial
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rpautrey2 - 18 Jun 2008 17:06 GMT The case against cure-alls The Sydney Morning Herald June 19, 2008
Edzard Ernst, the world's first professor of complementary medicine, is on a mission. He wants people to know the truth about the "potions, pills, needles, pummelling and energising" that make up the multibillion-dollar global alternative medicine industry.
And the news is not good.
At a time when alternative therapies are rapidly growing in popularity, promoted by princes, pop stars and more than 40 million websites, the German-born British expert has a harsh conclusion.
"Millions of patients are wasting their money and risking their health by turning towards a snake-oil industry."
Ernst, from the University of Exeter, started out a fan. Like many European doctors he was trained in homeopathy and practised it for many years. But his faith began to falter when he looked more closely at research emerging in the 1990s on its lack of effectiveness.
For the last 15 years he has devoted his time to sifting the scientific evidence on a plethora of complementary therapies and remedies, to find out what works and what doesn't.
He has developed fake acupuncture needles which look and feel real to the patient, so this ancient practice can be tested in controlled clinical trials. And he has quizzed neurologists about unreported cases of stroke and artery damage after neck manipulations by chiropractors.
His detailed findings are presented in a new book, Trick Or Treatment? Alternative Medicine On Trial, co-authored with a journalist, Simon Singh.
It is a very timely tome, with the Federal Government considering a toughening of requirements for Australia's $2 billion complementary medicine industry to disclose the evidence it has about the efficacy of its products. Tightening advertising rules and a new consumer information website are options being considered to help people make better informed health-care decisions.
Scientific research on alternative therapies in Australia has also been boosted with the establishment last year of the National Institute for Complementary Medicine, based at the University of Western Sydney, as well as funding grants of more than $7 million this year for three more collaborative centres and 13 new research projects.
Many alternative practitioners develop excellent therapeutic relationships with their patients, maximising the placebo effect, says Ernst. And they have had few options in the past but to put their faith in traditional usage and case studies to evaluate the benefits of their therapies.
But he points out that since 2000, scientific studies have flooded in, with more than 4000 clinical trials published this decade on alternative medicine. "Now that the research is on the table we are in a position to identify those therapies that genuinely help patients, those that are pure quackery and those that lie somewhere in the middle."
One of the biggest rip-offs is homeopathy, he says. A mountain of evidence now shows it is "a bogus industry that offers patients nothing more than a fantasy". Its basic premise - that like cures like - has no biological basis, and its remedies are so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the therapeutic ingredient.
Some commonly sold remedies are so watered down it has been calculated that consumers would have to swallow a pill with a diameter equal to the distance from the Earth to the sun to get one molecule of ingredient.
While no harm can come from these fake remedies, says Ernst, the risk is that homeopaths may convince patients not to seek conventional treatments or to avoid true medical marvels like immunisation.
Despite thousands of years of acupuncture practice in China, and a decade of scientific research, there is also no good evidence to show this therapy is better than a placebo for any conditions other than, perhaps, some sorts of pain and nausea. High-quality trials of acupuncture using sham telescopic needles are beginning to produce results that could even overturn these positive findings.
The risks from acupuncture, such as infection or organ puncture, are small. But this is not the case with chiropractic therapy. "The dangers of chiropractic therapy can be serious and in some cases life threatening," says Ernst, whose research in Britain identified 35 cases of injury after neck manipulation in a year, including nine strokes, which otherwise would have gone unreported.
Chiropractic therapy is on a par with physiotherapy and osteopathy for treating some back problems, but the last two are safer because they take a gentler approach, he says. Additional claims by some chiropractors that they can treat a range of other conditions, such as asthma and period pain, are "beyond belief", the science shows.
Ernst says people too easily fall for the clever marketing ploy that traditional medicines are better because they are natural. But natural does not equate to safe, with evidence, for example, that the herb ephedra, promoted as a slimming agent and still available over the internet, caused severe reactions in at least 19,000 users around the world, and killed more than 160 of them.
And it is a fallacy that conventional medicine will not readily accept traditional remedies, he says. Fish oil to prevent heart disease and St John's wort to treat mild depression are examples of treatments that have emerged from traditional roots, been promoted by alternative medicine and are now part of conventional medicine because of evidence of their effectiveness.
Homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropractic therapy and herbal medicine are all at the respectable end of the alternative medicine spectrum, says Ernst. "It's shocking to think there are dozens of even more dubious alternative therapies which make even more outlandish claims in order to extract even more money from their patients."
The executive director of the Complementary Healthcare Council of Australia, Wendy Morrow, says consumers in Australia can be confident of the quality and safety of alternative medicines here because, like pharmaceuticals, they are regulated by the Therapeutic Goods Administration.
Most products are listed, rather than registered, which means they cannot be recommended to treat serious illnesses such as high blood pressure and cancer, although a company must have some evidence, for example, from traditional use, for a product's claimed benefits.
Registered products require strong scientific evidence that they work. And a proposal for a middle option - an optional green tick system to identify alternative medicines for which there is some good evidence they are effective - is being considered by the Government.
Dr Morrow says the council does not support this proposal, because sponsors of a product can already apply for registration if they have the evidence. "We believe it is unnecessary."
Controlled clinical trials are valuable, she says, but are "not the be all and end all". She remains convinced that traditional use and case studies are sufficient to establish efficacy.
Marc Cohen, a professor of complementary medicine at RMIT University in Melbourne, also says there are problems in using scientific methods to evaluate the work of natural therapists, many of whom provide a valuable service of lifestyle counselling. "Most of the burden of chronic disease is due to lifestyle factors."
There has not been a financial incentive, as with pharmaceuticals, for alternative medicine practitioners to carry out clinical trials, because they have not relied on patentable products. And analyses of large numbers of studies, which Ernst relies on, only show what is effective for most people, says Cohen. "Very few therapies work for everyone."
But he believes there should be a government system of registration for alternative practitioners, as for other health professionals, and he supports the green tick idea. "There is a huge case for more transparency, for consumers to have more information about the products they buy."
The new funding for research is welcome, but Australia still lags
15 years behind the United States where more than $150 million is being spent a year on complementary medicine research, Cohen says.
He also points out that Australians spend four times as much out of their own pockets on alternative medicines as on pharmaceuticals. "Obviously people vote with their wallets. So it's likely they do it because they're receiving a benefit."
But it is not an argument that persuades Singh and Ernst. There are many reasons why people believe in ineffective therapies, they say. Conventional medicine was popular but got it wrong for thousands of years, with deadly practices such as blood letting, until an evidence- based approach exposed its failures.
It's time for alternative medicine to adopt the same standards, they say. "If alternative practitioners are making unproven, disproven or vastly exaggerated claims and if their treatments carry risks, then we are being swindled at the expense of our own good health."
Trick Or Treatment? Alternative Medicine On Trial, Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst (Bantam, $37.95).
This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/06/18/1213770732852.html
Copyright © 2008. The Sydney Morning Herald.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Jun 2008 20:47 GMT > The case against cure-alls > The Sydney Morning Herald > June 19, 2008 I find it sad that in today’s society that people still believe and doctors practice:
A. Drugs are not poisons. B. The doctor can poison the sick into becoming well. C. Every disease needs a particular poison. D. Every disease needs a causative agent…for which there is a poison to be taken. E. If it hurts, cut it out. F. Vaccines can prevent some future disease. G. Injected mercury is safe but mercury in fish or the air is lethal.
If you were to take the scalpel, the hypodermic needle, and the prescription pad away from your allopathic doctor, of what benefit would the doc be as far as your health is concerned?
The truth is that scientific/mechanistic medicine is a monopoly and a fraud. No amount of legislation will ever make a lie the truth.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 19 Jun 2008 02:42 GMT > If you were to take the scalpel, the hypodermic needle, and the > prescription pad away from your allopathic doctor, of what benefit > would the doc be as far as your health is concerned? Looking back over the records of the last five years, no difference. Fracture reductions, dermatological conditions, routine examinations ... nope. No scalpels, no prescriptions, and no injections.
Nice try though, Chuckles.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Peter Moran - 19 Jun 2008 02:45 GMT On Jun 18, 12:06 pm, rpautrey2 <rpautr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The case against cure-alls > The Sydney Morning Herald > June 19, 2008 I find it sad that in today’s society that people still believe and doctors practice:
A. Drugs are not poisons. B. The doctor can poison the sick into becoming well. C. Every disease needs a particular poison. D. Every disease needs a causative agent…for which there is a poison to be taken. E. If it hurts, cut it out. F. Vaccines can prevent some future disease. G. Injected mercury is safe but mercury in fish or the air is lethal.
If you were to take the scalpel, the hypodermic needle, and the prescription pad away from your allopathic doctor, of what benefit would the doc be as far as your health is concerned?
PM Are you now saying that these things ARE of benefit to the health of some?
The truth is that scientific/mechanistic medicine is a monopoly and a fraud. No amount of legislation will ever make a lie the truth.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
PM Cee, I spend some of my time pointing out to other skeptics that scientific medicine is still very young. It has scarcely started. It can hardly be expected to have simple, entirely safe and 100% effective solutions to all of mankind's ills after a mere century or two of evolution.
For this reason we perhaps should be more tolerant of "alternative" methods that are not subject to excessive claims and that may be offering placebo or other minor benefits to some people. Acupuncture and some herbs may be examples.
But I have to persuade them that most of the methods are not unduly dangerous in themselves -- that they only wind up killing or harming when in the hands of a very few who are either very ignorant or very stupid.
Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you?
PM.
D. C. Sessions - 19 Jun 2008 03:36 GMT > Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? Spelling might go over his head.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Mark Probert - 19 Jun 2008 21:34 GMT > <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? Keep it mono-syllabic.
t - 19 Jun 2008 22:02 GMT On Jun 18, 9:45 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you?
>Keep it mono-syllabic. So Mark can understand what you are saying.
Mark Probert - 20 Jun 2008 13:33 GMT > On Jun 18, 9:45 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > So Mark can understand what you are saying No, dumbass, so idiots like you and Doc sChmuckie can figure it out without asking a 5 year old.
Citizen Jimserac - 20 Jun 2008 16:23 GMT > > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > No, dumbass, so idiots like you and Doc sChmuckie can figure it out > without asking a 5 year old. Which are you, skeptic or SCOOPTIC?
We shall let the readers decide for themselves!
Citizen Jimserac
t - 20 Jun 2008 19:09 GMT On Jun 19, 5:02 pm, "t" <tool...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > So Mark can understand what you are saying No, dumbass, so idiots like you and Doc sChmuckie can figure it out without asking a 5 year old. Sorry Mark, your weak rebuttal came too late.
Mark Probert - 20 Jun 2008 21:56 GMT > On Jun 19, 5:02 pm, "t" <tool...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > without asking a 5 year old. > Sorry Mark, your weak rebuttal came too late Nope. It nailed you to a 't'.
t - 20 Jun 2008 22:14 GMT > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > without asking a 5 year old. > Sorry Mark, your weak rebuttal came too late Nope. It nailed you to a 't'. Let's see now.......... You, failed at most everything in life. Me, successful at almost everything. You are so cute when you try to be witty.
Mark Probert - 20 Jun 2008 23:00 GMT > > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Let's see now.......... You, failed at most everything in life. Me, > successful at almost everything. You are so cute when you try to be witty Actually, moron, I have succeeded at just about everything I ever wanted to do. The only failure of concern is that I have not been able to educate a.sholes like you.
t - 21 Jun 2008 00:11 GMT > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > Let's see now.......... You, failed at most everything in life. Me, > successful at almost everything. You are so cute when you try to be witty Actually, moron, I have succeeded at just about everything I ever wanted to do. The only failure of concern is that I have not been able to educate a.sholes like you. Ah! it is noted that with all your successes in life that you still have not been able to grow beyond schoolyard gutter language. I suggest that if you wish to "educate" people, you might try being a tad bit less emotional in your communications. Try putting $50.00 in a jar every time you succumb to anti-social behavior,to be given to the social help group of your choice on the first of every month. You being a big successful man, you can afford that, right? Even if you only count the ones online, some group will get a tidy sum till you break your bad habits. Please let us know how well you are doing with it.
Jan Drew - 21 Jun 2008 03:54 GMT > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > Let's see now.......... You, failed at most everything in life. Me, > successful at almost everything. You are so cute when you try to be witty Actually, moron, I have succeeded at just about everything I ever wanted to do. The only failure of concern is that I have not been able to educate a.sholes like you. --------------------------------------
More proof of your lie, Mark S Probert, Merrick, NY. You do NOT read Torah everyday. Nor have you EVER backed up your list of claims.
Disbarred is NOT succeessing.
In the Matter of Mark Probert (Admitted as Mark S. Probert), a Suspended Attorney, Respondent. Grievance Committee for the Tenth Judicial District, Petitioner.
92-02731
SUPREME COURT OF NEW YORK, APPELLATE DIVISION, SECOND DEPARTMENT
183 A.D.2d 282; 590 N.Y.S.2d 747
November 9, 1992, Decided
PRIOR HISTORY: [***1]
Disciplinary proceedings instituted by the Grievance Committee for the Tenth Judicial District. Respondent was admitted to the Bar on February 15, 1978, at a term of the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court in the Second Judicial Department, under the name Mark S. Probert.
DISPOSITION: Ordered that the petitioner's motion to impose discipline upon the respondent based upon his failure to appear or answer is granted; and it is further,
HEADNOTES: Attorney and Client - Disciplinary Proceedings
Respondent attorney, who is charged with 22 counts of failing to cooperate with investigations of alleged misconduct by the Grievance Committee, and who has failed to answer or appear, is disbarred.
COUNSEL:
Frank A. Finnerty, Jr., Westbury (Muriel L. Gennosa of counsel), for petitioner.
JUDGES: Mangano, P. J., Thompson, Bracken, Sullivan and Harwood, JJ., concur.
Ordered that the petitioner's motion to impose discipline upon the respondent based upon his failure to appear or answer is granted; and it is further,
Ordered that pursuant to Judiciary Law § 90, effective immediately, the respondent, Mark Probert, is disbarred and his name is stricken from the roll of attorneys and counselors-at-law; and it is further,
Ordered that the respondent shall continue to comply with this Court's rules governing the conduct of disbarred, suspended and resigned attorneys (22 NYCRR 691.10); and it is further,
Ordered that pursuant to Judiciary [***2] Law § 90, the respondent, Mark Probert, is commanded to continue to desist and refrain (1) from practicing law in any form, either as principal or as agent, clerk or employee of another, (2) from appearing as an attorney or counselor-at-law before any court, Judge, Justice, board, commission or other public authority, (3) from giving to another an opinion as to the law or its application or any advice in relation thereto, and (4) from holding himself out in any way as an attorney and counselor-at-law.
OPINIONBY: Per Curiam.
OPINION: [*282]
[**747] By decision and order of this Court dated September 29, 1989, the respondent was suspended from the practice of law until the further order of this Court based upon his failure to cooperate with the Grievance Committee. By further order of this Court dated June 4, 1992, the Grievance Committee was authorized to institute and prosecute a disciplinary proceeding [*283] against the respondent and the Honorable Moses M. Weinstein was appointed as Special Referee.
[**748] A notice of petition and petition was personally served upon the respondent on July 2, 1992. No answer was forthcoming. The petitioner now moves to hold the [***3] respondent in default. The motion was personally served upon the respondent on August 14, 1992. The respondent has failed to submit any papers in response to the default motion.
The charges involve 22 counts of the respondent's failure to cooperate with the Grievance Committee in its investigations into complaints of professional misconduct.
The charges, if established, would require the imposition of a disciplinary sanction against the respondent. Since the respondent has chosen not to appear or answer in these proceedings, the charges must be deemed established. The petitioner's motion to hold the respondent in default and impose discipline is, therefore, granted. Accordingly, the respondent is disbarred and his name is stricken from the roll of attorneys and counselors-at-law, effective immediately
Source:
NY UNIFIED COURT SYSTEM, ATTORNEY REGIST. UNIT
Currency Status:
ARCHIVE RECORD
NAME & PROFESSIONAL INFORMATION
Name:
MARK PROBERT
Date Of Birth:
11/XX/1946
Gender:
MALE
Address:
1698 WEBSTER AVE
MERRICK, NY 11566
County:
NASSAU
Phone:
516-968-5572
EMPLOYER INFORMATION
Employer:
MARK S PROBERT ESQ
Organization:
PERSON
LICENSING INFORMATION
Licensing Agency:
NY STATE OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION
License/Certification Type:
ATTORNEY
License Number:
1253889
Issue Date:
00/00/1978
License Status:
DISBARRED
License State:
NY
From: Mark Probert - view profile Date: Sun, Feb 11 2001 4:17 pm Email: Mark Probert <markpr...@my-deja.com> Groups: k12.chat.teacher
Noah has had one since 11/26/96 (my birthday).
Jan Drew - 20 Jun 2008 22:30 GMT On Jun 19, 5:02 pm, "t" <tool...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > So Mark can understand what you are saying No, dumbass, so idiots like you and Doc sChmuckie can figure it out without asking a 5 year old. -------------------------------------
More proof Mark S Probert does not read Torah everyday.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 19 Jun 2008 21:52 GMT > PM Cee, I spend some of my time pointing out to other skeptics that > scientific medicine is still very young. It has scarcely started. It can > hardly be expected to have simple, entirely safe and 100% effective > solutions to all of mankind's ills after a mere century or two of > evolution. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. A mere century or two and how many trillions of dollars spent? You egotistical basta--ds claim to know everthing.
Scientific/mechanistic medicine is not “new”, nor is it “young.” The Greeks argued it thousands of years ago. I think it was Democritus who argued for scientific/mechanistic medicine while Hippocrates argued for vitalistic/humanistic medicine.
Secondly, any theory, medical or otherwise, which is based upon a false and erroneous concept can never be true and correct despite the attempts of its proponents to make said theory accepted by legal and other covert means. No amount of legislation will ever make water run uphill.
I will not argue against what has been accomplished in “trauma” medicine. However, when it comes to the disease industry, you and yours are full of sh..t.
You cannot poison the sick into becoming well. Palliation is not a cure. The germ theory of disease is false. Immunization is a lie. We have had the answer to cancer since 1930. AIDS is a hoax. Bird flu is a joke.
> Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? > > PM. You might need to "spell it out." Remember, the docs have been conspiring to control and monopolize medicine since at least 1520. The situation was so bad that the King of England issued an edict to limit and prevent the docs greedy activities.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 20 Jun 2008 02:09 GMT > Secondly, any theory, medical or otherwise, which is based upon a > false and erroneous concept can never be true and correct despite the > attempts of its proponents to make said theory accepted by legal and > other covert means. What about one that cannot even in principle be tested?
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Peter Moran - 20 Jun 2008 06:10 GMT On Jun 18, 9:45 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> PM Cee, I spend some of my time pointing out to other skeptics that > scientific medicine is still very young. It has scarcely started. It can > hardly be expected to have simple, entirely safe and 100% effective > solutions to all of mankind's ills after a mere century or two of > evolution. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. A mere century or two and how many trillions of dollars spent? You egotistical basta--ds claim to know everthing.
Scientific/mechanistic medicine is not “new”, nor is it “young.” The Greeks argued it thousands of years ago. I think it was Democritus who argued for scientific/mechanistic medicine while Hippocrates argued for vitalistic/humanistic medicine.
PM Nonsense. A mere century and half ago Semmelweiss' discovery of the infectiousness of puerperal fever was rejected by the Catholic Church, who preached that the illness was the punishment of God for fallen women. Pasteur and his germ theory revealed the true state of affairs.
Before the invention of the microscope, the discovery of the circulation of the blood, the synthesis of urea, among a few other critical and mainly technology-based achievements nearly all of medicine was based upon the reasoning of priests or the arguments of philosophers. You cannot call it "scientific". Only a very few others who thought that there might be natural rather than supernatural explanations for life matters can be regarded as primitive scientists. The synthesis of urea was critical, because prior to this it was thought that only mysterious life sources could produce such organic molecules.
Secondly, any theory, medical or otherwise, which is based upon a false and erroneous concept can never be true and correct despite the attempts of its proponents to make said theory accepted by legal and other covert means. No amount of legislation will ever make water run uphill.
I will not argue against what has been accomplished in “trauma” medicine. However, when it comes to the disease industry, you and yours are full of sh..t.
You cannot poison the sick into becoming well. Palliation is not a cure. The germ theory of disease is false. Immunization is a lie. We have had the answer to cancer since 1930. AIDS is a hoax. Bird flu is a joke.
PM Yes, this is what I mean. Unsubstantiated and delusional medical claims like these are responsible for unnecessary deaths and much of the hostility and ridicule directed to towards alternative medicine. . Sensible folk will reason that thousands of civilisations had hundreds of thousands of years in which to find the explanations and cures for illnesses using non-technological, supposedly "natural" means. It is absurd to suggest that somehow that knowledge has been lost or suppressed.
PM
> Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? > > PM. You might need to "spell it out." Remember, the docs have been conspiring to control and monopolize medicine since at least 1520. The situation was so bad that the King of England issued an edict to limit and prevent the docs greedy activities.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 20 Jun 2008 14:18 GMT (I *think* this is all PM's -- someday maybe you could learn to quote?)
> PM Nonsense. A mere century and half ago Semmelweiss' discovery of the > infectiousness of puerperal fever was rejected by the Catholic Church, who > preached that the illness was the punishment of God for fallen women. > Pasteur and his germ theory revealed the true state of affairs. Do keep in mind that Cee still denies that puerperal fever (or anything else, for that matter) is contagious and *still* holds that disease is (despite changes in terminology) supernatural punishment for sin.
> Before the invention of the microscope, the discovery of the circulation of > the blood, the synthesis of urea, among a few other critical and mainly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because prior to this it was thought that only mysterious life sources could > produce such organic molecules. Of course Cee can call it "scientific." Just keep in mind that his definition of "scientific" isn't the same as yours.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 20 Jun 2008 16:56 GMT > In message <SsGdnXUoBp9WpsbVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdn...@posted.internode>, Peter Moran wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that disease is (despite changes in terminology) supernatural > punishment for sin. Semmelweiss discovered that it was a lack of proper sanitation in the hospitals that was causing puerperal fever. It was the doctors of the day who rejected his ideas not the Church. A dumbass allopath might be doing an autopsy in one room and casually stroll over to deliver a baby with his hands and his gown covered with tissue, blood, and fluid from a cadaver. The allopath then contaminated both the mother and the baby. No contagion needed. Are you saying that puerperal fever was a contagious disease and not an iatrogenic disorder casused by egotistical and ignorant doctors? Keep in mind that the mid-wives and the Orthopaths never had a problem with puerperal fever. The mid-wives and the Orthopaths practiced sanitation in their hospitals.
Never have I said that disease is a supernatural punishment for sin. What I have said is that there is no disease...it is universally dis- ease. The only supernatural involvement is that modern medicine a medical monopoly and constitutes the church of modern medicine with a false god as its godhead.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Citizen Jimserac - 20 Jun 2008 17:32 GMT .
> DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. Well... er.... ACTUALLY YOU CAN by using teeny weeny itsy bitsy (most certainly smaller than a yellow polka dot bikini) doses which have been proved to eliicit a certain set of symptoms.
Please learn something about Homeopathy or else qualify your sweeping assertion, "Dr." Cee.
Citizen Jimserac
drceephd@insightbb.com - 20 Jun 2008 19:30 GMT > . > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac I think my comment about “pus and poisons” is very clear. The allopath resorts to “pus” in his manufacture and use of vaccines. The pus from cows to produce smallpox vaccine is typical. The pus from diseased monkey kidneys is used to produce numerous vaccines, including the polio vaccine. All medicines are poisons and many poisons are used as medicines. No further comment should be needed.
I give you a brief description of homeopathy at my site listed in my profile. Orthopathy is a system of medical understanding with a complete answer to most of man’s ills. Homeopathy is not concerned with causation and is only a system for treating diseases. “Like cures like” is nice and works much better than the allopathic concept of driving a tack with a sledgehammer and the use of powerful, toxic, and deadly drugs.
However, the best medicine is NO medicine, allopathic or homeopathic, in total agreement with the teachings and understanding of the Orthopaths. The best homeopathy offers then is some pure water and the placebo effect, the same effect used by Jennings in 1820 to harness the healing power of his sugar pills and colored water. The extent to which homeopathy works is direct proportion to how little it impedes the body’s natural healing abilities and efforts.
Orthopathy is a drugless theory of dis-ease. It worked in 1820 and it still works today. The best medicine is no medicine. Place the ill in a well ventilated room, provide adequate temperature control, some sunshine, and water ad-libitum, and you would be surprised at the so called “diseases” you could heal.
I suggest that you learn more of Orthopathy before you go making other judgements for which you appear incompetent to make.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Citizen Jimserac - 21 Jun 2008 02:53 GMT > > . > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. Ah! Thank you for that most courteous enlightenment! Orthopathy! Oh I shall keep that in mind... er, ... would you pardon me, I don't think I'll be needing to peruse any more of your comments!
Keep up the good orhtopathying!!
Yours Citizen Jimserac
drceephd@insightbb.com - 21 Jun 2008 04:22 GMT > > > . > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Sorry you did not like my comments Citizen.
I began a search for the “health truth” nearly 20 years ago. I did not find it in Allopathy, nor Osteopathy, nor chiropractic, nor Ayuervedic, nor Oriental medicine, or Naturopathy. I did find the health truth in the teachings of the Orthopathic physicians. However, the mental and spiritual understanding of the ayuervedics and that of oriental medicine I find to be beneficial.
I found homeopathy to be a valuable medical intervention. Not because it explained disease causation, but because it was inexpensive and could not possibly kill anyone. My main problem with homeopathic remedies is that they choose to use toxic and poisonous materials like mercury, arsenic, and even snake venom. I cannot support any medical theory that uses such toxic materials and then claim that they have beneficial effects on the human body, especially one that is ill.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 15:17 GMT > I found homeopathy to be a valuable medical intervention. Not because > it explained disease causation, but because it was inexpensive and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > theory that uses such toxic materials and then claim that they have > beneficial effects on the human body, especially one that is ill. And yet you have advocated use of sodium EDTA on children, even after more than one death from the stuff.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 21 Jun 2008 15:45 GMT > In message <77a138d9-ab18-4071-8cf6-85ad6ec6e...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | > +-------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ One death from the "stuff" used by an incompetent allopath shows how stupid the average allopath can be. Yet, this hardly compares to the tens of thousands killed annually by pharmaceutical drugs.
Secondly, you are lying once again. I have never advocated the use of sodium EDTA on children. I wonder why you choose to obfuscate and smear my name.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 17:58 GMT >> In message <77a138d9-ab18-4071-8cf6-85ad6ec6e...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
>> > I found homeopathy to be a valuable medical intervention. Not because >> > it explained disease causation, but because it was inexpensive and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stupid the average allopath can be. Yet, this hardly compares to the > tens of thousands killed annually by pharmaceutical drugs. Let me see if I can parse this: your contention is that the death of one child at the hands of an "alternative health practitioner" proves that all MDs are stupid.
Well, in your world maybe.
> Secondly, you are lying once again. I have never advocated the use of > sodium EDTA on children. I wonder why you choose to obfuscate and > smear my name. In message <e64b5028-bed6-4a32-9138-18a5dd5031e6@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> It is > essential that these babies seek appropriate medical care to chelate > and remove this mercury as soon as possible. In message <o976f5-7ui.ln1@news.lumbercartel.com> I wrote:
> Chelation is administration of "poisons" -- and yet somehow > you're all in favor of it, and have nothing but praise for > the people who killed Abubakar Tariq Nadama. (Context: Abubakar Tariq Nadama was killed by Na2EDTA)
And in message <30ba7cb2-5f37-4a0a-9ab5-1e9b084c45a7@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> you replied:
> I do not oppose of chelation anymore than I oppose > sedation or anethesia for surgery.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Mark Probert - 21 Jun 2008 18:54 GMT > In message <85f1fbe2-c567-4775-8cb8-7bfe31088...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > essential that these babies seek appropriate medical care to chelate > > and remove this mercury as soon as possible. Hmmm...sChmuckie should take a memory pill.
> In message <o976f5-7ui....@news.lumbercartel.com> I wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (Context: Abubakar Tariq Nadama was killed by Na2EDTA) Which, BTW, was the correct chemical according to the wacko groups he belongs to.
> And in message <30ba7cb2-5f37-4a0a-9ab5-1e9b084c4...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> > you replied: > > > I do not oppose of chelation anymore than I oppose > > sedation or anethesia for surgery. sChmuckie uses sedation and anethesia for posting.
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 19:10 GMT > Hmmm...sChmuckie should take a memory pill.
> Which, BTW, was the correct chemical according to the wacko groups he > belongs to.
> sChmuckie uses sedation and anethesia for posting. Is this really constructive?
Yes, I know what my .signature reads today -- but that's about ridicule for the *idea*, not the *person.* And, yes, I'm aware that I don't have a perfect record on the subject myself. Bite me.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Jan Drew - 21 Jun 2008 22:49 GMT > In message > <931b35cc-22a6-4a65-a0ac-c48ee8f98bd8@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Mark [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > yes, I'm aware that I don't have a perfect record on the > subject myself. Bite me. Have you had your rabbies shot?
> | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | > | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | > | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | > +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 22 Jun 2008 02:25 GMT >> In message >> <931b35cc-22a6-4a65-a0ac-c48ee8f98bd8@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Mark [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Have you had your rabbies shot? rabbies?? is that a new "disease" Janster??
no...just evidence of your ignorance of ALL things medical...
you don't belong where intelligent folks live....here
>> | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | >> | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | >> | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | >> +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ D. C. Sessions - 22 Jun 2008 02:38 GMT > rabbies?? is that a new "disease" Janster?? Maybe it's something like http://tinyurl.com/24budk
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 21 Jun 2008 23:10 GMT > In message <931b35cc-22a6-4a65-a0ac-c48ee8f98...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Mark Probert wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | > +-------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ NO it is not relative. Valdepoophead is a newsgroup parasite, intervening in various conversations so that he can get in some insult and then vanishing. He is clearly capable of good posts but apparently prefers otherwise.
I have tried to encourage substansive disucssions with him but it is ... difficult.
Remember Valdepoop, consider carefully your repsonse or its ban time again.
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 23:35 GMT > Remember Valdepoop, consider carefully your > repsonse or its ban time again. I'm sure he's quaking in mortal terror.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 22 Jun 2008 11:41 GMT > In message <437b35e6-b93f-4c67-a488-34ec82ff0...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: > > > Remember Valdepoop, consider carefully your > > repsonse or its ban time again. > > I'm sure he's quaking in mortal terror. Of course! But between you and me, he IS allowed some special consideration seeing as how he can come up with some good stuff from time to time.
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 21 Jun 2008 23:07 GMT On Jun 21, 10:45 am, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > In message <77a138d9-ab18-4071-8cf6-85ad6ec6e...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. It is typical for them. Denialists seek the one point they can latch on to which will allow them sit back and condemn some other field of medicine without any other effort. Even if the point is a distortion, misrepresentation or other fabrication.
See my posting "Sceptic vs Scooptic"
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 21 Jun 2008 23:04 GMT > > > > . > [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. OK. I won't stop perusing your posts, what you said was sincere and well stated.
JUST some minor issues need to be cleared up. You say: "I cannot support any medical theory that uses such toxic materials and then claim that they have beneficial effects on the human body, especially one that is ill."
Homoepathy DOES NOT state that such toxic substances have a beneficial effect on the human body in and of themselves.
Quite the contrary, they are recognized as toxic or as poisons.
What Homeopathy says is that an infinitesimal dose of these substances, in some cases even doses which no longer contain any atoms of the toxic substance after high dilutions and shaking, when properly selected on the basis of like cures like, elicits or STIMULATES a reaction which triggers the body's own immune system to do the cure.
At the center of the Homeopathic system is an elaborate symptom typology for each and every Homeopathic remedy - a symptom typology corroborated by thousands of elaborately detailed proving studies with real live HUMAN volunteers, not animals, not test tubes, not computer generated molecular software, doing the testing.
The result is the most HUMAN medicine on the planet, by Humans, for Humans and created by HUMANS.
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 03:05 GMT > Orthopathy is a system of medical understanding with a complete answer > to most of man?s ills. Kewl! So tell us how to induce smallpox. Or measles. Or plague. Or polio.
> Homeopathy is not concerned with causation and > is only a system for treating diseases. Be nice -- you don't do causation either. You've specifically told us that your beliefs are untestable and that there is no way to separate the causes of various diseases.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 03:02 GMT >> In message <SsGdnXUoBp9WpsbVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdn...@posted.internode>, Peter Moran wrote:
>> (I *think* this is all PM's -- someday maybe you could learn >> to quote?) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > from a cadaver. The allopath then contaminated both the mother and > the baby. No contagion needed. You have just described the very definition of "contagion."
> Are you saying that puerperal fever was a contagious disease and not > an iatrogenic disorder casused by egotistical and ignorant doctors? > Keep in mind that the mid-wives and the Orthopaths never had a problem > with puerperal fever. The mid-wives and the Orthopaths practiced > sanitation in their hospitals. The midwives and "orthopaths" were just as ignorant of sanitation as anyone else -- but the midwives only treated women one at a time and the "orthopaths" did neither autopsies nor obstetrics.
> Never have I said that disease is a supernatural punishment for sin. You change the words, but it's still magic.
> What I have said is that there is no disease...it is universally dis- > ease. The only supernatural involvement is that modern medicine a > medical monopoly and constitutes the church of modern medicine with a > false god as its godhead. You yourself have told us that your beliefs are not subject to objective tests -- that the consequences of "wrong behavior" are unpredictable and uncontrollable, that there is no way to test your beliefs, and that there is no detectable mechanism underlying what happens to us.
Sounds like religion (or magic, same thing) to me.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Jan Drew - 20 Jun 2008 22:25 GMT > On Jun 18, 9:45 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote: >> PM Cee, I spend some of my time pointing out to other skeptics that [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > PM The absurd one is you.
Racketeering in Medicine The Suppression of Alternatives
by James P. Carter
Are Americans being deprived of economical and truly effective medical treatments because orthodox medicine and pharmaceutical companies can't profit from them? With hard hitting analysis backed by overwhelming evidence, Dr. Carter presents many disturbing cases of legitimate therapies being disparaged as quackery, government agencies harassing alternative practitioners, and drug companies peddling their influence—the real causes of today's health-care crisis.
The alternative medicine movement has grown immensely in the last few years. The fact that alternative treatments are generally much less expensive to the consumer has created powerful enemies within the pharmaceutical-medical industrial complex. Alternative doctors are routinely singled out for harassment or worse by local medical boards. Sometimes a gifted M.D. finds his licence threatened simply because he has promoted a treatment that is untraditional.
Racketeering in Medicine boldly reveals what still happens to doctors, even in these modern times, who dare to seek and use knowledge which has not been sanctioned by the American Medical Association or approved by the Federal Drug Administration. It uncovers how effective treatments for cancer, heart disease and AIDS are being suppressed in the name of profit or special interest. Dr. Carter deals with many aspects of the problem, including the role of the FDA, the insurance companies, the drug companies, the battle of the chelation doctors, legal battles, transcripts and much more.
Racketeering in Medicine is an extremely important book which all physicians and consumers should read if we truly want to create wellness. The quality of our lives and the advancement of medicine depend on it.
See the subject:
Medicine Wars, 100 Year Suppression of cancer cures, 100 years of farming human diseases for profit, The Cancer Industry
>> Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. Peter Moran - 20 Jun 2008 22:56 GMT >> On Jun 18, 9:45 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote: >>> PM Cee, I spend some of my time pointing out to other skeptics that [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > Medicine Wars, 100 Year Suppression of cancer cures, 100 years of > farming human diseases for profit, The Cancer Industry It is equally ridiculous, and arousing of equal hostility towards the supporters of alternative medicine, to claim that the entire medical profession of all countries, and even of all religious faiths, is engaged in a conspiracy to supporess effective treatments.
I will bet you any money you like that Carter is unable to name one tretament that works and has been suppressed.
PM
>>> Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> DrCee >> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. Mark Thorson - 20 Jun 2008 23:00 GMT > It is equally ridiculous, and arousing of equal hostility towards the > supporters of alternative medicine, to claim that the entire medical [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I will bet you any money you like that Carter is unable to name one > tretament that works and has been suppressed. And why would the old Soviet Union have cooperated with the conspiracy? What would they have had to gain by suppressing these treatments? Would it not have been a propaganda coup to expose the conspiracy and its capitalist underpinnings?
D. C. Sessions - 21 Jun 2008 02:56 GMT >> See the subject: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I will bet you any money you like that Carter is unable to name one > tretament that works and has been suppressed. Thank you, Peter. Not for the content but for the form.
| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Jan Drew - 21 Jun 2008 03:47 GMT >>> On Jun 18, 9:45 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote: >>>> PM Cee, I spend some of my time pointing out to other skeptics that [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > profession of all countries, and even of all religious faiths, is engaged > in a conspiracy to supporess effective treatments. All countries and religious faiths were mentioned, where?
> I will bet you any money you like that Carter is unable to name one > tretament that works and has been suppressed. > > PM Strange to bet when it is apparent you haven't read the book.
>>>> Can you see where this is heading, or should I spell it out for you? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> DrCee >>> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
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