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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008Acupuncture and knee osteoarthritis
While the following article will be of no interest whatsoever to Andrew Kingoff, people who actually want to know whether acupuncture is effective or not may find the following article worthe reading: "Acupuncture as an adjunct to exercise based physiotherapy for osteoarthritis of the knee: randomised controlled trial," N.E. Foster et al., British Medical Journal vol. 335, p. 436 (2007), available online (http://tinyurl.com/66ffgq). In this study, the experimenters investigated the effect of adding acupuncture or sham acupuncture (using needles that retract into the body of the needle rather than piercing the skin) to physical therapy for osteoarthritis of the knee. Their conclusion was "The addition of acupuncture to a course of advice and exercise for osteoarthritis of the knee delivered by physiotherapists provided no additional improvement in pain scores." ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It's certainly easy to mock things," agreed Trefusis. "Oddly enough though I've never found it easy to mock anything of value. Only things that are tawdry and fatuous -- perhaps it's just me." > While the following article will be of no interest whatsoever to Andrew > Kingoff, people who actually want to know whether acupuncture is effective [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > knee delivered by physiotherapists provided no additional improvement in > pain scores." http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abridged/329/7476/1216?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10 &RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture+osteoarthritis+&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&reso urcetype=HWCIT Results 88 patients completed the trial. In the intention to treat analysis, the WOMAC index presented a greater reduction in the intervention group than in the control group (mean difference 23.9, 95% confidence interval 15.0 to 32.8) The reduction was greater in the subscale of functional activity. The same result was observed in the pain visual analogue scale, with a reduction of 26.6 (18.5 to 34.8). The PQLC results indicate that acupuncture treatment produces significant changes in physical capability (P = 0.021) and psychological functioning (P = 0.046). Three patients reported bruising after the acupuncture sessions. Conclusions Acupuncture plus diclofenac is more effective than placebo acupuncture plus diclofenac for the symptomatic treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee. :> While the following article will be of no interest whatsoever to Andrew :> Kingoff, people who actually want to know whether acupuncture is effective [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :> et al., British Medical Journal vol. 335, p. 436 (2007), available online :> (http://tinyurl.com/66ffgq). ? And I was right: Andrew Kingoff refuses to read, or even to acknowledge the existence, of the above-referenced article. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It's certainly easy to mock things," agreed Trefusis. "Oddly enough though I've never found it easy to mock anything of value. Only things that are tawdry and fatuous -- perhaps it's just me." Doc Rich, you should be made aware that there is a long history of misrepresenting tests in alternative medicine as a means to false claims that they don't work. Regarding osteoarthritis, for example, a famous test with totally negative results for Homeopathy was done and published in Lancet in 1983. Three drugs were used, Rhus Tox for the Homeo drug, fenoprofen (an analgesic) and a placebo and given to three different groups. The homeopathy and placebo groups were beaten soundly by fenoprofen. Problem is, feneprofen is a fast acting analgesic and the Homeopathy medications take longer to do their stuff. Also, this kind of test stacks the odds against Homeopathy by forcing the use of a single Homeoapthic remedy when in actuality several might have been used to individualize them for each patient. Last but not least, Rhus Tox is a Homeopathic remedy for RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS, not osteoarthritis (speaking in general). So you presenting some test which shows negative results about anything is pretty worthless here. IT IS clear now, that your arguments, like that of all denialists, unfortunately rely on selective focus, misrepresentation, or other alteration of reality to suit your particular denial. You are welcome to continue your charade but by now pretty much every one is on to it. Impresses the newcomers though. Citizen Jimserac > Doc Rich, you should be made aware that there is a long > history of misrepresenting tests in alternative > medicine as a means to false claims that they don't work. Therefore, all negative results are to be dismissed out of hand. What remains should be averaged and if the average is positive constitutes positive PROOF of the efficacy of homeopathy! Tell us, do, whether there is any conceivable set of facts which would convince you that homeopathy is bunk? | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ > In message <308c8530-d21f-4105-ac90-e63c93b27...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Tell us, do, whether there is any conceivable set of > facts which would convince you that homeopathy is bunk? Yes, people stop seeing Homeopathic doctors. Has not happened in 200 years. NEVER WILL. Citizen Jimserac P.S. It works; I don't know HOW it works, but... it works. >> In message <308c8530-d21f-4105-ac90-e63c93b27...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Has not happened in 200 years. NEVER WILL. So you base your opinion of the validity of healing arts purely on popularity? | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ > In message > <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6fa07@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > So you base your opinion of the validity of healing > arts purely on popularity? P.S. It works; I don't know HOW it works, but... it works. > | "Ridicule > > In message > > <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6f...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > -- > > | "Ridicule You will note in passing the apparently purposeful misrepresentation of Homeopathy disease theory by D.C. The mindless denialist is most at home discussing theories and leaving the true purpose of healing - the restoration of health of living beings, unmentioned. Innuendo, misrepresentation and ridicule are their mode and modus. The thought of people successfully getting cured by alternative methods infuriates them and their denialism requires that they claim it was all a trick, placebo, did not happen or otherwise deny reality, even when research shows otherwise. As additional proof of this, observe the failure of the denialists to barely acknowledge or criticize the obviously out of control pharmaceutical industry, with their killer Vioxes and baby deforming Thalidomides. Observe their lack of interest when "tests" are done on St. John's Wort and negative results are found, except that an inactive form of the herb was used for the "tests". We have here the opportunity to witness the attempt at medicalist totalitarian thinking in which one and only one "standard" medicine will be forced on populations, if they had their way. This dangerous and fascistic anti-science and anti-human philosophy is encouraged by none other than the very same corporatist philosophy dares to elevate themselves above governments and individual choice in their outrageous attempt at forced "benevolence", irrespective of all "side effects" as a justification for obscene profiteering. Citizen Jimserac Homeopathy Pills do NOTHING but their "side effect" is to cure the patient. >> In message ><308c8530-d21f-4105-ac90-e63c93b27...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >P.S. It works; I don't know HOW it >works, but... it works. Just like astrology, which is at least as popular! -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "There are two kinds of Republicans: millionaires and suckers." -- John Dolan > In article <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6f...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Just like astrology, which is at least as popular! And chemotherapy! Citizen Jimserac :> Just like astrology, which is at least as popular! : And chemotherapy! And yet so many of us continue to fail to recognize him as the Genius of the Millenium. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Apparently, you take me for a complete fool." "Yeah -- more or less." Bob & Ray, "Garish Summit" :> Tell us, do, whether there is any conceivable set of :> facts which would convince you that homeopathy is bunk? :> : Yes, people stop seeing Homeopathic doctors. : : Has not happened in 200 years. NEVER WILL. People have been going to astrologers for something more like 4000 years. Does that prove that astrology is not bunk? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." > In article <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6f...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > ----- I don't know, haven't consulted my horoscope for today. Citizen Jimserac >> In article >> <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6f...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I don't know, haven't consulted my horoscope for today. Of course you have ZERO idea of what homeopahy is. FYI Mental calming and concentration works for many people. Concentration on astrology, time of year and other moon conditions DO effect people. Studies have shown that some who become totally obsessed with saying homeopathy doesn't work can be helped with mental care. Imagine being obsessed with such a subject. Just lying outside and staring at the stars (at night) can get some people over obsessive behaviour. > Citizen Jimserac >>> In article >>> <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6f...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Studies have shown that some who become totally obsessed with saying > homeopathy doesn't work can be helped with mental care. Studies have shown that all women who fell pregnant in the last five years were once virgins. Alternative logic therefore concludes that virginity causes babies. > Imagine being > obsessed with such a subject. Just lying outside and staring at the stars > (at night) can get some people over obsessive behaviour. Depending where they are lying, it might get them run over too. Cal >>> In article >>> <2ea3a04f-e688-44d5-b17f-8620b9d6f...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Of course you have ZERO idea of what homeopahy is. http://www.adhom.com/adh_download/EVIDENCE_9.0_Sept_06.pdf > "CitizenJimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > CitizenJimserac Here is a link to some EVIDENCE, sorry no stars! http://www.adhom.com/adh_download/EVIDENCE_9.0_Sept_06.pdf Citizen Jimserac > "CitizenJimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > CitizenJimserac http://www.adhom.com/adh_download/EVIDENCE_9.0_Sept_06.pdf Citizen Jimsera > In message > <308c8530-d21f-4105-ac90-e63c93b27667@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, The correct way to post so all readers can read what exactly was posted. > On Jun 15, 8:51 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac >> Doc Rich, you should be made aware that there is a long >> history of misrepresenting tests in alternative [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Tell us, do, whether there is any conceivable set of > facts which would convince you that homeopathy is bunk? Tell us, do, why you post incorrectly? : Doc Rich, you should be made aware that there is a long : history of misrepresenting tests in alternative : medicine as a means to false claims that they don't work. Have you read the article in question? Can you point to any evidence that any false claims were made? I didn't think so. You do know that there is a long history of misrepresenting tests in alternative medicine as a means to false claims that they *do* work, don't you? Oh wait, I forgot. You refuse to acknowledge the existence of any evidence that might contradict your preconceived notions. Forget I asked. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message: > Forget I > asked. Good idea, better yet, forget anything you post. WE know what you are missing. Try a treatment of acupuncture. > ----- > Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > Doc Rich, you should be made aware that there is a long > history of misrepresenting tests in alternative [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac Agreed. Anyone can read *This document has been changed since it was created.* Contact the author of original version of this document. > In article > <ad3a51a5-3c0b-4cd9-b4d3-bd12cea1428c@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, The > One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> wrote: > While the following article will be of no interest whatsoever to Andrew > Kingoff, people who actually want to know whether acupuncture is effective [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > knee delivered by physiotherapists provided no additional improvement in > pain scores." http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abridged/329/7476/1216?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10 &RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture+osteoarthritis+&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&reso urcetype=HWCIT Results 88 patients completed the trial. In the intention to treat analysis, the WOMAC index presented a greater reduction in the intervention group than in the control group (mean difference 23.9, 95% confidence interval 15.0 to 32.8) The reduction was greater in the subscale of functional activity. The same result was observed in the pain visual analogue scale, with a reduction of 26.6 (18.5 to 34.8). The PQLC results indicate that acupuncture treatment produces significant changes in physical capability (P = 0.021) and psychological functioning (P = 0.046). Three patients reported bruising after the acupuncture sessions. Conclusions Acupuncture plus diclofenac is more effective than placebo acupuncture plus diclofenac for the symptomatic treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee. > :> While the following article will be of no interest whatsoever to Andrew > :> Kingoff, people who actually want to know whether acupuncture is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And I was right: Andrew Kingoff refuses to read, or even to acknowledge > the existence, of the above-referenced article. And you just lied again. > ----- > Richard Schultz Who IS wrong anf LIES repeatedly. |
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