Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008
HOMEOPATHY a Placebo? DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT.
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Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jun 2008 15:42 GMT Just as was done with Acupuncture, the denialists will look at one or two research Homeopathy research tests that failed and immediately draw the sweeping conclusion that it does not work or is no better than placebo. "Just expensive little sugar pills" they will say... except, HERE is what the National Institute of Health web site has to say about REAL RESEARCH regarding Homeopathy (see LINK and sample research below)
Note a couple of failed examples, Homeopathy does not work for everything, but why should we ignore the successes - to keep big pharma happy? Note that in some of the tests, Homeopathy remedies performed as WELL as standard medications too.
from: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/
Vickers and Smith, 200234 The homeopathic remedy oscillococcinum appears safe and effective in reducing the duration of influenza, but has no effect on prevention.
Lewith et al., 200228 Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial of 242 participants aged 18 to 55 years. Trial compared an oral homeopathic treatment to placebo in asthmatic people allergic to house dust. Authors found the homeopathic treatment "no better than placebo." They noted "some differences between the homeopathic immunotherapy and placebo for which we have no explanation."
Oberbaum et al., 200135 Randomized, double-blinded, placebo- controlled trial in 32 children; 30 completed the study. Traumeel S, a homeopathic skin cream, may significantly reduce the severity and length of pain and inflammation of the tissues lining the inside of the mouth from chemotherapy in children being treated with bone marrow transplantation.
Taylor et al., 200036 Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial of 51 participants aged 17 years or older (50 completed the study). Team tested the hypothesis that homeopathy is a placebo by examining effects of an oral homeopathic preparation in patients with perennial allergic rhinitis. They found a "significant objective improvement in nasal airflow" compared with the placebo group.
However, both groups reported subjective improvement in "nasal symptoms" (with no statistically significant difference between groups). Authors concluded that the objective evidence supports that "homeopathic dilutions differ from placebo."
Jacobs et al., 200037 Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial of 126 children; 116 completed the study. Individualized homeopathic treatments improved digestive problems in children with acute childhood diarrhea. Results are consistent with findings of a previous study.
Weiser et al., 199938 Randomized, double-blinded trial of 146 people. For the treatment of hay fever, a homeopathic nasal spray is as efficient and well tolerated as a conventional therapy, cromolyn sodium.
Rastogi et al., 199939 Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial of 100 people between 18 and 50 (71 percent male/29 percent female). A subgroup of patients with HIV in the symptomatic phase, receiving treatment, had increased levels of CD4 cells at the end of the trial; the placebo subgroup did not.
Vickers et al., 199840 Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial of 519 people; 400 completed the study. Homeopathic remedies, including arnica, are not effective for muscle soreness following long- distance running.
Weiser et al., 199841 Randomized, double-blinded, controlled trial of 119 people; 105 completed the study. The homeopathic treatment vertigoheel, and the standard treatment of betahistine, are equally effective in reducing the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks.
Citizen Jimserac
Peter Moran - 14 Jun 2008 00:34 GMT > Just as was done with Acupuncture, the denialists > will look at one or two research Homeopathy research [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > work for everything, but why should we ignore the > successes - to keep big pharma happy? We don't ignore the successful studies, we say that we expect some to be positive at a p< .05 level merely due to chance and others will inevitably be even strongly positive due to common errors in trial design, We also have to look at the few positive studies in the light of everything else that we know about homeopathy, for example that it is based entirely upon prescientific superstitions, that for a single truly homeopathic remedy to work on anything requires not one but several extremely unlikley and completely unsupported propositions to be true i.e that dilution is compatible with increasing potency, that "like cures like", that homeopathic "provings" can indicate the curatuve pwoer of chemicals, and also the homeopathic symptom-based treatment-selection system. Two hundreds years of scientific progress has not validated a single one of these. When all the evidence is combined together the odds against homeopathy being otehr than placebo are staggering.
PM
>Note > that in some of the tests, Homeopathy remedies [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac Citizen Jimserac - 14 Jun 2008 01:05 GMT > "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> We don't ignore the successful studies, we say that we expect some to be > positive at a p< .05 level merely due to chance and others will inevitably > be even strongly positive due to common errors in trial design, We also > have to look at the few positive studies in the light of everything else > that we know about homeopathy, for example that it is based entirely upon > prescientific superstitions, NO! That attitude is a PRESCIENTIFIC BIAS!
> that for a single truly homeopathic remedy to > work on anything requires not one but several extremely unlikley and > completely unsupported propositions to be true i.e that dilution is > compatible with increasing potency, that "like cures like", that homeopathic > "provings" can indicate the curatuve pwoer of chemicals, and also the > homeopathic symptom-based treatment-selection system. Er... pardon me it is allopathic medicine which has a symptom-based treatment selection system. In Homeopathy it is a symptom based - curative substance with similar properties (from the provings, rememeber?) MATCHING system.
That's because the administration of a substance, in minute quantities triggers a bodily reaction to make it self stronger against diseases producing those same symptoms.
Allopathic medicine on occasion "borrows" some of these remedies, for example digitalis and nitro were both originally Homeopathic remedies. Of course the allopaths give them in gross amounts were molecules of the stuff are actually physically present (Citizen Jimserac wrinkles his nose at such obtuse and primitive blundering)
> Two hundreds years > of scientific progress has not validated a single one of these. When all > the evidence is combined together the odds against homeopathy being otehr > than placebo are staggering. > > PM And in those 200 years, standard medicine is a never ending parade of new theories, new approaches, NEW DRUGS and NEWER drugs while the wily homoepathists are using pretty much the same old stuff. One system works now and forever and the other keeps groping for symptomatic suppressive "cures".
When all the evidence and research is in, the odds against allopathy having the right approach are staggering!
Citizen Jimserac
Peter Moran - 15 Jun 2008 00:20 GMT On Jun 13, 7:34 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> We don't ignore the successful studies, we say that we expect some to be > positive at a p< .05 level merely due to chance and others will inevitably > be even strongly positive due to common errors in trial design, We also > have to look at the few positive studies in the light of everything else > that we know about homeopathy, for example that it is based entirely upon > prescientific superstitions, NO! That attitude is a PRESCIENTIFIC BIAS!
PM A what? I don't know what that means. You clearly don't understand the point that all science is about probabilities. We know that clincal trials involveing subjective or self-limiting complaints commonly produce spurious results. The probability that the positive studies on homoepathy are such is massively increased by the outlandishness of its precepts.
> that for a single truly homeopathic remedy to > work on anything requires not one but several extremely unlikley and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "provings" can indicate the curatuve pwoer of chemicals, and also the > homeopathic symptom-based treatment-selection system. Er... pardon me it is allopathic medicine which has a symptom-based treatment selection system.
PM How can you say that? Medicine is obviously diagnosis-based. Not only that but most of alternative medicine and even most homoepaths make at least some use of the diagnostic system that has evolved as the result of scientific discovery.
In Homeopathy it is a symptom based - curative substance with similar properties (from the provings, rememeber?) MATCHING system.
PM And you approve of this? Usng onion (allium cepa) for hay fever, because onions make your eyes water, looks more logical to you than using an understanding as to what causes the condition to modify the allergic response or reduce symptoms?
That's because the administration of a substance, in minute quantities triggers a bodily reaction to make it self stronger against diseases producing those same symptoms.
PM Which has never been shown, and all known effects of homepathy can be explained by placebo.
Allopathic medicine on occasion "borrows" some of these remedies, for example digitalis and nitro were both originally Homeopathic remedies.
PM Don't make things up. . More likely the other way around . WIlliam WIthering published about digitalis in England in 1785, and Hahnemann first published anything about homoepathy in Germany in the 1790s.
PM I am finding this too tiresome -- some of the rest of what you say is so ridiculous as to not be worhty of response. Bye.
PM
>Of course the allopaths give them in gross amounts were molecules of the stuff are actually physically present (Citizen Jimserac wrinkles his nose at such obtuse and primitive blundering)
> Two hundreds years > of scientific progress has not validated a single one of these. When all > the evidence is combined together the odds against homeopathy being otehr > than placebo are staggering. > > PM And in those 200 years, standard medicine is a never ending parade of new theories, new approaches, NEW DRUGS and NEWER drugs while the wily homoepathists are using pretty much the same old stuff. One system works now and forever and the other keeps groping for symptomatic suppressive "cures".
When all the evidence and research is in, the odds against allopathy having the right approach are staggering!
PM This si getting too
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 15 Jun 2008 13:41 GMT > "CitizenJimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message IS THIS the kind of innuendo and junk science that you encourage in order to continue your preposterous denialism against Homeopathy - here is the purposeful alteration of an experiment that proves biological effects from substances diluted beyond the Avogadro limit.
"Dana Ullman, MPH agreed to be interviewed by 20/20 as long as they agreed to use Professor Ennis as a consultant to make certain that the study was properly conducted. Wayne Turnbull, the experimenter at Guys Hospital in London who 20/20 hired, agreed to consult with Professor Ennis, but when she alerted him that his protocol was completely different than hers or any other study ever performed in homeopathy, he refused to change the experiment. Shockingly, Turnbull used a chemical, Ammonium chloride, in this experiment which is widely known to kill basophils, making the study impossible to any homeopathic medicine or any drug to have any effects."
quoted from http://www.gordonresearch.com/answers/abc_news_20-20_debunks_homeopathy.html
ABC NEWS 20/20 "Debunks" Homeopathy
Many of you are not aware of exciting new developments in HOMEOPATHY that give it a tremendous edge in the world of benefit/risk healing of our fellow man. Because ABC's 20/20 segment wants high ratings to sell their TV ad time, they have once again permitted John Stossel, who terms anything he does not understand as "JUNK SCIENCE," to participate in a clearly fraudulent effort to invalidate homeopathy. While pretending to duplicate a research project, but deviating from it significantly, it assures failure.
The details are in these emails, which will only be relevant to those that need to know the truth. Once our enemies start painting Homeopathy as quackery, they seem to never stop in the number of things that they want to include in this category. Therefore, for those that need to know the details regarding how outrageous the "study" was that 20-/20 did to discredit homeopathy, these emails are for you.
Garry F. Gordon, MD,DO,MD(H)
THAT'S the kind of "science" that gets encouraged every time you repeat your placebo nonsense and "it's just water" nonsense.
Citizen Jimserac
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