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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008

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HOMEOPATHY  a Placebo?  DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT.

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Citizen Jimserac - 13 Jun 2008 15:42 GMT
Just as was done with Acupuncture, the denialists
will look at one or two research Homeopathy research
tests that failed and immediately draw the sweeping
conclusion that it does not work or is no better
than placebo.  "Just expensive little sugar pills"
they will say... except, HERE is what the National
Institute of Health web site has to say about
REAL RESEARCH regarding Homeopathy
(see LINK and sample research below)

Note a couple of failed examples, Homeopathy does not
work for everything, but why should we ignore the
successes - to keep big pharma happy?  Note
that in some of the tests, Homeopathy remedies
performed as WELL as standard medications too.

from:
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/

Vickers and Smith, 200234          The homeopathic remedy oscillococcinum
appears safe and effective in reducing the duration of influenza, but
has no effect on prevention.

Lewith et al., 200228     Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled
trial of 242 participants aged 18 to 55 years.     Trial compared an oral
homeopathic treatment to placebo in asthmatic people allergic to house
dust. Authors found the homeopathic treatment "no better than
placebo." They noted "some differences between the homeopathic
immunotherapy and placebo for which we have no explanation."

Oberbaum et al., 200135     Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-
controlled trial in 32 children; 30 completed the study.     Traumeel S,
a homeopathic skin cream, may significantly reduce the severity and
length of pain and inflammation of the tissues lining the inside of
the mouth from chemotherapy in children being treated with bone marrow
transplantation.

Taylor et al., 200036     Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled
trial of 51 participants aged 17 years or older (50 completed the
study).     Team tested the hypothesis that homeopathy is a placebo by
examining effects of an oral homeopathic preparation in patients with
perennial allergic rhinitis. They found a "significant objective
improvement in nasal airflow" compared with the placebo group.

However, both groups reported subjective improvement in "nasal
symptoms" (with no statistically significant difference between
groups). Authors concluded that the objective evidence supports that
"homeopathic dilutions differ from placebo."

Jacobs et al., 200037      Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled
trial of 126 children; 116 completed the study.      Individualized
homeopathic treatments improved digestive problems in children with
acute childhood diarrhea. Results are consistent with findings of a
previous study.

Weiser et al., 199938     Randomized, double-blinded trial of 146 people.
    For the treatment of hay fever, a homeopathic nasal spray is as
efficient and well tolerated as a conventional therapy, cromolyn
sodium.

Rastogi et al., 199939     Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled
trial of 100 people between 18 and 50 (71 percent male/29 percent
female).     A subgroup of patients with HIV in the symptomatic phase,
receiving treatment, had increased levels of CD4 cells at the end of
the trial; the placebo subgroup did not.

Vickers et al., 199840     Randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled
trial of 519 people; 400 completed the study.     Homeopathic remedies,
including arnica, are not effective for muscle soreness following long-
distance running.

Weiser et al., 199841     Randomized, double-blinded, controlled trial of
119 people; 105 completed the study.     The homeopathic treatment
vertigoheel, and the standard treatment of betahistine, are equally
effective in reducing the frequency, duration, and intensity of
vertigo attacks.

Citizen Jimserac
Peter Moran - 14 Jun 2008 00:34 GMT
> Just as was done with Acupuncture, the denialists
> will look at one or two research Homeopathy research
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> work for everything, but why should we ignore the
> successes - to keep big pharma happy?

We don't ignore the successful studies, we say that we expect some to be
positive at a p< .05 level merely due to chance and others will inevitably
be even strongly positive due to common errors in trial design,    We also
have to look at the few positive studies in the light of everything else
that we know about homeopathy, for example that it is based entirely upon
prescientific superstitions, that for a single truly homeopathic remedy to
work on anything requires not one but several extremely unlikley and
completely unsupported propositions to be true i.e  that dilution is
compatible with increasing potency, that "like cures like", that homeopathic
"provings" can indicate the curatuve pwoer of chemicals, and also the
homeopathic symptom-based treatment-selection system.   Two hundreds years
of scientific progress has not validated a single one of these.  When all
the evidence is combined together the odds against homeopathy being otehr
than placebo are staggering.

PM

>Note
> that in some of the tests, Homeopathy remedies
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 14 Jun 2008 01:05 GMT
> "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> We don't ignore the successful studies, we say that we expect some to be
> positive at a p< .05 level merely due to chance and others will inevitably
> be even strongly positive due to common errors in trial design,    We also
> have to look at the few positive studies in the light of everything else
> that we know about homeopathy, for example that it is based entirely upon
> prescientific superstitions,

NO!  That attitude is a PRESCIENTIFIC BIAS!

> that for a single truly homeopathic remedy to
> work on anything requires not one but several extremely unlikley and
> completely unsupported propositions to be true i.e  that dilution is
> compatible with increasing potency, that "like cures like", that homeopathic
> "provings" can indicate the curatuve pwoer of chemicals, and also the
> homeopathic symptom-based treatment-selection system.

Er... pardon me it is allopathic medicine which has a symptom-based
treatment selection system.  In Homeopathy it is a
symptom based - curative substance with similar
properties (from the provings, rememeber?)  MATCHING  system.

That's because the administration of a substance, in minute
quantities triggers a bodily reaction to make it self stronger
against diseases producing those same symptoms.

Allopathic medicine on occasion "borrows" some of these remedies,
for example digitalis and nitro were both originally Homeopathic
remedies.  Of course the allopaths give them in gross amounts
were molecules of the stuff are actually physically
present (Citizen Jimserac wrinkles his nose at such obtuse
and primitive blundering)

>  Two hundreds years
> of scientific progress has not validated a single one of these.  When all
> the evidence is combined together the odds against homeopathy being otehr
> than placebo are staggering.
>
> PM

And in those 200 years, standard medicine is a never ending parade of
new
theories, new approaches, NEW DRUGS and NEWER drugs while the
wily homoepathists are using pretty much the same old stuff.
One system works now and forever and the other keeps groping
for symptomatic suppressive "cures".

When all the evidence and research is in, the odds
against allopathy having the right approach are staggering!

Citizen Jimserac
Peter Moran - 15 Jun 2008 00:20 GMT
On Jun 13, 7:34 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> We don't ignore the successful studies, we say that we expect some to be
> positive at a p< .05 level merely due to chance and others will inevitably
> be even strongly positive due to common errors in trial design, We also
> have to look at the few positive studies in the light of everything else
> that we know about homeopathy, for example that it is based entirely upon
> prescientific superstitions,

NO!  That attitude is a PRESCIENTIFIC BIAS!

PM A what?  I don't know what that means.    You clearly don't understand
the point that all science is about probabilities.   We know that clincal
trials involveing subjective or self-limiting complaints commonly produce
spurious results.    The probability that the positive studies on homoepathy
are such is massively increased by the outlandishness of its precepts.

> that for a single truly homeopathic remedy to
> work on anything requires not one but several extremely unlikley and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "provings" can indicate the curatuve pwoer of chemicals, and also the
> homeopathic symptom-based treatment-selection system.

Er... pardon me it is allopathic medicine which has a symptom-based
treatment selection system.

PM  How can you say that?   Medicine is obviously diagnosis-based.    Not
only that but  most of alternative medicine and even most homoepaths make at
least some use of the diagnostic system that has evolved as the result of
scientific discovery.

In Homeopathy it is a
symptom based - curative substance with similar
properties (from the provings, rememeber?)  MATCHING  system.

PM  And you approve of this?    Usng onion (allium cepa) for hay fever,
because onions make your eyes water, looks more logical to you than using an
understanding as to what causes the condition to modify the allergic
response or reduce symptoms?

That's because the administration of a substance, in minute
quantities triggers a bodily reaction to make it self stronger
against diseases producing those same symptoms.

PM  Which has never been shown, and all known effects of homepathy can be
explained by placebo.

Allopathic medicine on occasion "borrows" some of these remedies,
for example digitalis and nitro were both originally Homeopathic
remedies.

PM  Don't make things up. . More likely the other way around .  WIlliam
WIthering published about digitalis in England  in 1785, and Hahnemann first
published anything about homoepathy in Germany in the 1790s.

PM I am finding this too tiresome -- some of the rest of what you say is so
ridiculous as to not be worhty of response.  Bye.

PM

>Of course the allopaths give them in gross amounts
were molecules of the stuff are actually physically
present (Citizen Jimserac wrinkles his nose at such obtuse
and primitive blundering)

> Two hundreds years
> of scientific progress has not validated a single one of these. When all
> the evidence is combined together the odds against homeopathy being otehr
> than placebo are staggering.
>
> PM

And in those 200 years, standard medicine is a never ending parade of
new
theories, new approaches, NEW DRUGS and NEWER drugs while the
wily homoepathists are using pretty much the same old stuff.
One system works now and forever and the other keeps groping
for symptomatic suppressive "cures".

When all the evidence and research is in, the odds
against allopathy having the right approach are staggering!

PM  This si getting too

Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 15 Jun 2008 13:41 GMT
> "CitizenJimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message

IS THIS the kind of innuendo and junk science
that you encourage in order to continue your preposterous
denialism against Homeopathy - here is the purposeful alteration
of an experiment that proves biological effects from substances
diluted beyond the Avogadro limit.

"Dana Ullman, MPH agreed to be interviewed by 20/20 as long as they
agreed to use Professor Ennis as a consultant to make certain that the
study was properly conducted. Wayne Turnbull, the experimenter at Guys
Hospital in London who 20/20 hired, agreed to consult with Professor
Ennis, but when she alerted him that his protocol was completely
different than hers or any other study ever performed in homeopathy,
he refused to change the experiment. Shockingly, Turnbull used a
chemical, Ammonium chloride, in this experiment which is widely known
to kill basophils, making the study impossible to any homeopathic
medicine or any drug to have any effects."

quoted from
http://www.gordonresearch.com/answers/abc_news_20-20_debunks_homeopathy.html

ABC NEWS 20/20 "Debunks" Homeopathy

Many of you are not aware of exciting new developments in HOMEOPATHY
that give it a tremendous edge in the world of benefit/risk healing of
our fellow man. Because ABC's 20/20 segment wants high ratings to sell
their TV ad time, they have once again permitted John Stossel, who
terms anything he does not understand as "JUNK SCIENCE," to
participate in a clearly fraudulent effort to invalidate homeopathy.
While pretending to duplicate a research project, but deviating from
it significantly, it assures failure.

The details are in these emails, which will only be relevant to those
that need to know the truth. Once our enemies start painting
Homeopathy as quackery, they seem to never stop in the number of
things that they want to include in this category. Therefore, for
those that need to know the details regarding how outrageous the
"study" was that 20-/20 did to discredit homeopathy, these emails are
for you.

Garry F. Gordon, MD,DO,MD(H)

THAT'S the kind of  "science" that gets encouraged every time you
repeat
your placebo nonsense and "it's just water" nonsense.

Citizen Jimserac
 
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