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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008Prepare your killfiles!
In the coming week, I'll be starting a thread entitled "Critical Thinking vs Hysterical Blindness". Obviously, I'll be the proponent of Critical Thinking in direct opposition to person taking the position contrary to mine. Since some of the MHA regulars have already acquired the skill of critical thinking, I'm making it easy for them to killfile this thread. Instead, I'm reaching out to a very small MHA demographic, those capable of critical thinking yet unwilling to apply it universally. They are akin to the ilk who do understand ethics, but choose to apply them situationally, if at all. My goal is to emancipate from mentally slavery those believing that denial can free their minds. Lo, an honest man knows there is no profit in deceit; that blind contrariness does not taste sweet. Hopefully, this task will take me less than the 10 months it took to have a similar "breakthrough" on the topic of Acupuncture's acceptance within mainstream medicine. My long term goals are lofty. I'm want to impart certain facts that conflict with someone's heartfelt beliefs about acupuncture in particular and medicine in general. That person has given me a toe-hold from which to work regarding the acceptance of acupuncture in mainstream medicine. Now, I have to illustrate to him that its acceptance is not based, as he implies, on a lack of requiring of med students a passing grade in statistics. I have to show him that his inference that its acceptance is based on money, is meritless. No, in all of my years as an acupuncturist, I've never had anyone else make the suggestions that acupuncture was accepted due to incompetency and/or greed within mainstream medicine. Tsk. One thing is for certain. During the course of this thread, and during the passing of time, acupuncture will continue to flourish. It will be taught to and performed by more & more MD's as well as L.Ac's. It will be used by more MD's within academia, the military, & private practice. More LAc's will be training these MD's and more LAc's will be practicing alongside these MD's, guiding them through complex cases. That much, we can agree upon, and that is a start. On Jun 1, 2:02 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > In the coming week, I'll be starting a thread entitled "Critical > Thinking vs Hysterical Blindness". Obviously, I'll be the proponent [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > LAc's will be practicing alongside these MD's, guiding them through > complex cases. That much, we can agree upon, and that is a start. Many thanks for a series of outstanding and brilliant postings about Acupuncture. Your patience in dealing with hysterical denialists for whom no reasoning, fact nor evidence placed before them will in any way alter their preconceived denunciations is unrelenting. Citizen Jimserac : Many thanks for a series of outstanding and brilliant postings about : Acupuncture. Why are the articles that I posted in which I cited a large number of studies that failed to show any efficacy for acupuncture significantly different from a placebo not "outstanding" or "brilliant"? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article <ea329dc7-7d27-440f-ad0c-923c4fde0...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > studies that failed to show any efficacy for acupuncture significantly > different from a placebo not "outstanding" or "brilliant"? Two big reasons: Because you ignore the OVERWHELMING evidence in favor of Acupuncture and "mixed results" tests are often poorly designed or indicate non positive results for a variety of NON-ESSENTIAL reasons just as in the negative tests of vaccines, standard drugs and medical procedures. HERE, note THIS which establishes that a full theoretical scientific basis for Acupuncture has existed since the mid 70's. http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem122v1 This is quoted from: "Prospective Tests on Biological Models of Acupuncture " by Dr. Charles Shang eCAM Advance Access published online on November 21, 2007 eCAM, doi:10.1093/ecam/nem122 "According to the World Health Organization (WHO), a broad definition of acupuncture is the stimulation of certain points on the body (acupuncture points) using needling, moxibustion, electricity, laser or acupressure for therapeutic purposes (1). The standard acupuncture nomenclature published by the WHO listed about 400 acupuncture points and 20 meridians connecting most of the points (2). Results from randomized controlled trials (RCTs) have shown that acupuncture is effective in treating dozens of disorders (1) such as osteoarthritis (3–5), pelvic and back pain (6), neck pain (7), migraine and tension headache (8,9), nausea/vomiting (10) and inflammatory bowel disease (11). Mixed results widely exist in acupuncture research (12) for various reasons such as poor trial design, irregularity of this highly operator-dependent technique and the unique biological basis of acupuncture which will be explained later in this article. Many neurohumoral (13–15) mechanical (16) and growth control effects of acupuncture (17) have been observed. Several models of acupuncture mechanism have been proposed. The focus of this article is on the biological models of acupuncture which have been prospectively tested and independently confirmed. ." In addition, this article cites NUMEROUS scientific evidence for the actual REAL, YES THEY'RE REALLY THERE SUPER DUPER "HERE WE ARE" EXISTING, ACTUAL, PHYSICALLY TANGIBLE , YES THEY'RE THERE acupuncture points and meridians for which I offer THIS quote, again from Dr. Shang's article for your edification : "Since the 1950s, it has been discovered and confirmed with refined techniques (23) that many acupuncture points and meridians have high electrical conductance (24–26) though the results are sometimes mixed (27). High electric conductance of acupuncture points have been successfully used for locating acupuncture points in acupuncture therapy (28). The high electric conductance at acupuncture points is further supported by preliminary finding of high density of gap junctions at the epithelia of the acupuncture points (29–32). Gap junctions are hexagonal protein complexes that form channels between adjacent cells. It is well established in cell biology that gap junctions facilitate intercellular communication and increase electric conductance. High concentrations of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase have also been observed at acupuncture points and meridians (33)." Now you're a SCIENTIST so I know that you will take the time to read this article and its references REGARDING THE SCIENTIFIC BASIS OF ACUPUNCTURE so that you will not APPEAR TO BE SO COMPLETELY STUPID every time you post about Acupuncture. No more arguing against Chinese doctors of 1,000 years ago although Lord knows they had more common sense than YOU do. It is suggested that Peter Moran also read this article and then the both of you can stop this childish DENIALISM about Acupuncture. And THAT, to answer your question, is why the articles that you posted about Acupuncture not having any efficacy beyond placebo are NOT brilliant and NOT outstanding. Citizen Jimserac Actually we DO have far more than a Clue, we have ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE. :> Why are the articles that I posted in which I cited a large number of :> studies that failed to show any efficacy for acupuncture significantly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : : Because you ignore the OVERWHELMING evidence in favor of Acupuncture There is no "overwhelming" evidence in favor of acupuncture. There are some studies that report positive results, but in most cases, these studies are poorly designed, or the results are misrepresented, or they are subject to the kind of statistical problems that Dr. Moran outlined. (Note that I have expressed a willingness to discuss those statistical problems in more detail, but neither of our chief critical thinkers [tm] seems to want to know about it.) : and "mixed results" tests are often poorly designed or indicate : non positive results for a variety of NON-ESSENTIAL reasons just : as in the negative tests of vaccines, standard drugs and medical : procedures. Why don't you take *one* of the articles that I have posted and explain how it is poorly designed, and then take *one* article claiming positive results for which I have pointed out defects in the experimental protocol or how the results are not as significant as the press release would have it, and explain where my discussion is in error? : HERE, note THIS which establishes that a full theoretical : scientific basis for Acupuncture has existed since the mid 70's. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : migraine and tension headache (8,9), nausea/vomiting (10) and : inflammatory bowel disease (11). I don't have time to read all of his references. I have already commented on reference #5. The only objective measure of the efficacy of acupuncture performed in that study showed no significant difference between the experimental and control groups. I would have thought that the best test for success in treating osteoarthritis would be before-and-after X-rays that show that the joint damage has been reversed. I wonder why *that* experiment has never been done. : Now you're a SCIENTIST so I know that you will take the time to read : this article and its references REGARDING THE SCIENTIFIC : BASIS OF ACUPUNCTURE so that you will not APPEAR TO BE SO COMPLETELY : STUPID every time you post about Acupuncture. As far as I can tell, this "scientific basis" for acupuncture consists of random strings of buzzwords. Perhaps you can explain it in more detail. : No more arguing against Chinese doctors of 1,000 years ago : although Lord knows they had more common sense than YOU do. You mean that "chi" and "meridians" form the "scientific" basis of acupuncture? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article <cbd240da-6b52-4b66-b45b-92641bea0...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." Nice try Rich but you've STRUCK OUT. The article I quoted is OVERWHELMING in its scientifically documented support for Acupuncture efficacy. Now you can stand at the plate with your bat, snarl at the umpire, do whatever you want, but everyone can see that you've STRUCK OUT. Head back to the dugout and have a coffee or something. Citizen Jimserac See! We DID have a clue after all! :> Why don't you take *one* of the articles that I have posted and explain :> how it is poorly designed, and then take *one* article claiming positive :> results for which I have pointed out defects in the experimental protocol :> or how the results are not as significant as the press release would :> have it, and explain where my discussion is in error? Note that this question received no answer. What a surprise. :> I don't have time to read all of his references. ?I have already commented :> on reference #5. ?The only objective measure of the efficacy of acupuncture [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :> X-rays that show that the joint damage has been reversed. ?I wonder why :> *that* experiment has never been done. Note that this comment received no reply. What a surprise. :> You mean that "chi" and "meridians" form the "scientific" basis of :> acupuncture? Note that this question received no answer. What a surprise. : Nice try Rich but you've STRUCK OUT. The article I quoted is OVERWHELMING : in its scientifically documented support for Acupuncture efficacy. What you quoted was *one* article that presented *some* evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture, by defining "efficacy" in a way that only a true believer is likely to take seriously. What's more amusing is that the author of the article is a member of the editorial boards of _Medical Acupuncture_ and _The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine_, and has "research and practice experience" in acupuncture and qigong (inter alia). If someone with analogous credentials were to write about the efficacy of vaccination, you would be the first to decry his conflict of interest. When the author presents a result that you like, such questions seem to be significantly less important to you. This is not what I would call "critical" thinking or even intellectually honest argument. : Now you can stand : at the plate with your bat, snarl at the umpire, do whatever you : want, but everyone can see that you've STRUCK OUT. What everyone can see is that you refuse to consider *any* evidence other than that which supports your pre-existing beliefs. This is not critical thinking, or any kind of thinking. My .sig quote (I'm still waiting for you to tell me which one was taken from _Alice in Wonderland_) remains as valid as it was. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > What everyone can see is that you refuse to consider *any* evidence other > than that which supports your pre-existing beliefs. This is not critical > thinking, or any kind of thinking. My .sig quote (I'm still waiting for > you to tell me which one was taken from _Alice in Wonderland_) remains > as valid as it was. Oh we're back to Alice again?? Look, you head for the dugout, cool off, have a coffee and relax. Later on I'll respond to your Homeopathy comments (and pretty good ones too) in the other thread. You'll have some laughs at my lack of knowledge of molecular chemistry and soon forget that you've been completely refuted in your comments about Acupuncture. For real fun, I'll point you to Milgrom's web site and you can tell me the probability of all those nanostructures actually existing in water. I would suggest a Homeopathic remedy for you at this point, but somehow my memory of past exchanges on this subjects prevails and wisdom suggests that I not go there. Have fun! Citizen Jimserac >> What everyone can see is that you refuse to consider *any* evidence other >> than that which supports your pre-existing beliefs. This is not critical [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and you can tell me the probability of all those > nanostructures actually existing in water. time to drain our pool...let me know where to send the 75,000 gallons of water should make lots and lots of homeopathy bottles of water for you guys to sell > I would suggest a Homeopathic remedy for you > at this point, but somehow my memory of past [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac :> What everyone can see is that you refuse to consider *any* evidence other :> than that which supports your pre-existing beliefs. This is not critical :> thinking, or any kind of thinking. My .sig quote (I'm still waiting for :> you to tell me which one was taken from _Alice in Wonderland_) remains :> as valid as it was. : Oh we're back to Alice again?? As an example of (a) your inability to know whether or not you know whether you are talking about, and (b) your inability to admit to a mistake when you have made one, yes. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ > In article <67645295-4dcd-487a-81e2-15254f58c...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." > -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!!!! Citizen Jimserac :> : Oh we're back to Alice again?? :> As an example of (a) your inability to know whether or not you know whether :> you are talking about, and (b) your inability to admit to a mistake when :> you have made one, yes. : Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!!!! My point exactly. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article <5bce3202-268f-49a9-9557-8f132d867...@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > My point exactly. Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!!!! Citizen Jimserac :> In article <5bce3202-268f-49a9-9557-8f132d867...@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: :> :> : Oh we're back to Alice again?? :> :> As an example of (a) your inability to know whether or not you know :> :> whether you are talking about, and (b) your inability to admit to a :> :> mistake when you have made one, yes. :> : Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!!!! :> My point exactly. : Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo : ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!!!! My normal attitude is not to say "no one could possibly be that stupid" when people like you and Jan Drew post here. But I think that you've pretty much blown your cover with that one. Do Jan Drew and PeterB know that you are an undercover Pharma shill? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell." > In article > <67645295-4dcd-487a-81e2-15254f58ce85@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you are talking about, and (b) your inability to admit to a mistake when > you have made one, yes. Thanks for describing YOURSELF perfectly. > ----- > Richard Schultz > In article <ea329dc7-7d27-440f-ad0c-923c4fde0...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > studies that failed to show any efficacy for acupuncture significantly > different from a placebo not "outstanding" or "brilliant"? Whoooooosh! > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." :> Why are the articles that I posted in which I cited a large number of :> studies that failed to show any efficacy for acupuncture significantly :> different from a placebo not "outstanding" or "brilliant"? : : Whoooooosh! Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" "Richard Schultz" Whoooooosh! > In article > <ea329dc7-7d27-440f-ad0c-923c4fde09ae@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- Um, because those "studies" were wrong. Kinda like you Richard. Andrew and I have had our disagreements, but on this Andrew is CORRECT!. : In the coming week, I'll be starting a thread entitled "Critical : Thinking vs Hysterical Blindness". Obviously, I'll be the proponent : of Critical Thinking in direct opposition to person taking the : position contrary to mine. If you are such a fan of Critical Thinking [tm]: Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? Why do you not only refuse to read the articles in question, but refuse to admit that you have not done so? If you are such a fan of Critical Thinking [tm], why do you refuse to think about the implications of the similarities between the "theory" of acupuncture and the "theory" of reflexology? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." "Richard Schultz" On Jun 1, 9:02 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > In the coming week, I'll be starting a thread entitled "Critical > Thinking vs Hysterical Blindness". Obviously, I'll be the proponent [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > LAc's will be practicing alongside these MD's, guiding them through > complex cases. That much, we can agree upon, and that is a start. My policy is to share useful articles with you.I titled very good contents here under the category of health groups and sub-groups. This is my favourite articles published in Healthmad page.If you are interested in reading health and heath related contents,this is exactly what you are looking for. http://www.healthmad.com/Alternative/Mate-De-Coca-Tea.117005 http://www.healthmad.com/Nutrition/12-Great-Benefits-of-Carob.110174 http://www.healthmad.com/Health/Seven-Effective-Way-of-Relieving-Your... http://www.healthmad.com/Alternative/10-Great-Benefits-of-Drinking-Gr... http://www.healthmad.com/Alternative/Benefits-of-Lemon-Balm.91145 http://www.healthmad.com/Health/Drink-Pomegranate-Juice-for-Your-Heal... http://www.healthmad.com/Nutrition/Vitamins.76941 http://www.healthmad.com/Conditions-and-Diseases/What-is-Vitiligo.75770 |
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