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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008Acupuncture Anesthesia at Duke Medical School
Obviously, Stanford doesn't have a monopoly on using acupuncture in conjunction with anesthesia. After all, it is known to reduce the amount of opiods needed and greatly reduce the risk of side effects from those meds. Check out this quote "Acupuncture is slowly becoming more accepted by American physicians, but it is still underutilized,” Gan said. “Studies like this, which show that there is a benefit to using it, should help give physicians sitting on the fence the data they need to integrate acupuncture into their routine care of surgery patients.” http://anesthesia.duke.edu/news/opioid-need.htm Acupuncture Reduces Pain, Need for Opioids after Surgery Posted: November 26, 2007 2:41 PM EST DURHAM, N.C. – Using acupuncture before and during surgery significantly reduces the level of pain and the amount of potent painkillers needed by patients after the surgery is over, according to Duke University Medical Center anesthesiologists who combined data from 15 small randomized acupuncture clinical trials. “While the amount of opioids needed for patients who received acupuncture was much lower than those who did not have acupuncture, the most important outcome for the patient is the reduction of the side effects associated with opioids,” said Tong Joo (T.J.) Gan, M.D., a Duke anesthesiologist who presented the results of the analysis at the annual scientific conference of the American Society for Anesthesiology in San Francisco. “These side effects can negatively impact a patient’s recovery from surgery and lengthen the time spent in the hospital.” Based on the results of this analysis, Gan recommends that acupuncture should be considered a viable option for pain control in surgery patients. Patients who received acupuncture had significantly lower risk of developing most common side effects associated with opioid drugs compared with control: 1.5 times lower rates of nausea, 1.3 times fewer incidences of severe itching, 1.6 times fewer reports of dizziness and 3.5 times fewer cases of urinary retention. Opioids are a class of medications that act on the body much like morphine. While they are effective in controlling pain, the side effects of the drugs often influence a patient’s recovery from, and satisfaction with, their surgery, Gan said. The results of this study add to the growing body of evidence that acupuncture can play an effective role in improving the quality of the surgical experience, Gan added. Numerous studies, some conducted by Gan, have demonstrated that acupuncture can also be more effective than current medications in lessening the occurrence of post operative nausea and vomiting, the most common side effect experienced by patients after surgery. "Acupuncture is slowly becoming more accepted by American physicians, but it is still underutilized,” Gan said. “Studies like this, which show that there is a benefit to using it, should help give physicians sitting on the fence the data they need to integrate acupuncture into their routine care of surgery patients.” Acupuncture has the added benefits of being inexpensive, with virtually no side effects, when done by properly trained personnel, Gan added. The Chinese have been using acupuncture for more than 5,000 years for the treatment of a variety of ailments, including headaches, gastrointestinal disorders and arthritis. According to Chinese healing practices, there are about 360 specific points along 14 different lines, or meridians, that course throughout the body just under the skin. “The Chinese believe that our vital energy, known as chi, flows throughout the body along these meridians,” Gan explained. “While healthiness is a state where the chi is in balance, unhealthiness or disease state arises from either too much or too little chi, or a blockage in the flow of the chi.” Different bodily locations or organs have their own distinct acupuncture points that are the targets for the acupuncturist. For example, a point just below the wrist is the common target for women undergoing breast procedures to prevent nausea and vomiting, another point at the back of the hand is effective in reducing pain. While it is not completely known why or how acupuncture works, recent research seems to point to its ability to stimulate the release of hormones or the body’s own painkillers, known as endorphins, Gan said. He is now conducting studies to determine the exact mechanism behind acupuncture’s effects. Other members of the research team included Yanxia Sun, John Dubose and Ashraf Habib. The meta-analysis was supported by Duke’s Department of Anesthesiology. Obviously, Stanford doesn't have a monopoly on using acupuncture in conjunction with anesthesia. After all, it is known to reduce the amount of opiods needed and greatly reduce the risk of side effects from those meds. Check out this quote "Acupuncture is slowly becoming more accepted by American physicians, but it is still underutilized,” Gan said. “Studies like this, which show that there is a benefit to using it, should help give physicians sitting on the fence the data they need to integrate acupuncture into their routine care of surgery patients.” http://anesthesia.duke.edu/news/opioid-need.htm Acupuncture Reduces Pain, Need for Opioids after Surgery Posted: November 26, 2007 2:41 PM EST DURHAM, N.C. – Using acupuncture before and during surgery significantly reduces the level of pain and the amount of potent painkillers needed by patients after the surgery is over, according to Duke University Medical Center anesthesiologists who combined data from 15 small randomized acupuncture clinical trials. A misuse of metaanalysis, which can amplift the errors usual in "small" low quality trials performed by enthusiasts. I do think it possible that giving people acupuncture and telling them it will relieve their pain will have some effect, but any other treatment of equal invasiveness and mystery would serve as well. Also the author of this study obviously has no truck with Chinese mysticism --- " research seems to point to its ability to stimulate the release of hormones or the body’s own painkillers, known as endorphins, Gan said." So banging a finger with a hammer prior to surgery would probably work even better. PM “While the amount of opioids needed for patients who received acupuncture was much lower than those who did not have acupuncture, the most important outcome for the patient is the reduction of the side effects associated with opioids,” said Tong Joo (T.J.) Gan, M.D., a Duke anesthesiologist who presented the results of the analysis at the annual scientific conference of the American Society for Anesthesiology in San Francisco. “These side effects can negatively impact a patient’s recovery from surgery and lengthen the time spent in the hospital.” Based on the results of this analysis, Gan recommends that acupuncture should be considered a viable option for pain control in surgery patients. Patients who received acupuncture had significantly lower risk of developing most common side effects associated with opioid drugs compared with control: 1.5 times lower rates of nausea, 1.3 times fewer incidences of severe itching, 1.6 times fewer reports of dizziness and 3.5 times fewer cases of urinary retention. Opioids are a class of medications that act on the body much like morphine. While they are effective in controlling pain, the side effects of the drugs often influence a patient’s recovery from, and satisfaction with, their surgery, Gan said. The results of this study add to the growing body of evidence that acupuncture can play an effective role in improving the quality of the surgical experience, Gan added. Numerous studies, some conducted by Gan, have demonstrated that acupuncture can also be more effective than current medications in lessening the occurrence of post operative nausea and vomiting, the most common side effect experienced by patients after surgery. "Acupuncture is slowly becoming more accepted by American physicians, but it is still underutilized,” Gan said. “Studies like this, which show that there is a benefit to using it, should help give physicians sitting on the fence the data they need to integrate acupuncture into their routine care of surgery patients.” Acupuncture has the added benefits of being inexpensive, with virtually no side effects, when done by properly trained personnel, Gan added. The Chinese have been using acupuncture for more than 5,000 years for the treatment of a variety of ailments, including headaches, gastrointestinal disorders and arthritis. According to Chinese healing practices, there are about 360 specific points along 14 different lines, or meridians, that course throughout the body just under the skin. “The Chinese believe that our vital energy, known as chi, flows throughout the body along these meridians,” Gan explained. “While healthiness is a state where the chi is in balance, unhealthiness or disease state arises from either too much or too little chi, or a blockage in the flow of the chi.” Different bodily locations or organs have their own distinct acupuncture points that are the targets for the acupuncturist. For example, a point just below the wrist is the common target for women undergoing breast procedures to prevent nausea and vomiting, another point at the back of the hand is effective in reducing pain. While it is not completely known why or how acupuncture works, recent research seems to point to its ability to stimulate the release of hormones or the body’s own painkillers, known as endorphins, Gan said. He is now conducting studies to determine the exact mechanism behind acupuncture’s effects. Other members of the research team included Yanxia Sun, John Dubose and Ashraf Habib. The meta-analysis was supported by Duke’s Department of Anesthesiology. > Obviously, Stanford doesn't have a monopoly on using acupuncture in > conjunction with anesthesia. After all, it is known to reduce the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > So banging a finger with a hammer prior to surgery would probably work > even better. excellent example...have forgotten about that example > PM > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > and Ashraf Habib. The meta-analysis was supported by Duke’s Department > of Anesthesiology. On May 27, 6:03 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > Obviously, Stanford doesn't have a monopoly on using acupuncture in > > conjunction with anesthesia. After all, it is known to reduce the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > excellent example...have forgotten about that example That would very easy to test. Go ahead and see if a painful blow from a hammer does as much to relieve pain as a barely perceptible needle insertion. Seriously, Dr Moran, have you ever treated yourself or anyone else for pain by inflicting an injury on yourself? Of course not. Not only that, there is no basis for saying that a hammer injury relieves pain. If you disagree, I'm sure you'll provide a citation for it. > > PM > [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On May 27, 6:03 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > excellent example...have forgotten about that example That would very easy to test. Go ahead and see if a painful blow from a hammer does as much to relieve pain as a barely perceptible needle insertion. Seriously, Dr Moran, have you ever treated yourself or anyone else for pain by inflicting an injury on yourself? PM It is common observation that one painful site can blot out pain from another area. .Also a really painful event would induce maximal endorphin release, if that is a factor. Of course not. Not only that, there is no basis for saying that a hammer injury relieves pain. If you disagree, I'm sure you'll provide a citation for it. PM If it was provided as a medical treatment, inducing the expectation in the patients that it would help relieve postoperative pain, there is no question that the patients would report less post-operative pain. Even frank placebos can do that, and have been demomstrated to do so in countless studies. PM I beleive acupuncture is gaining acceptance in certain quarters because medicine needs placebos in many situations and it is handy to have something like acupuncture where there is at least some credibility with the public. I doubt if many doctors or medical schools take TCM philosophy and diagnosis seriously (that would be a BIG worry!), even while they may be grateful for having this "extra something to do" in many clinical contexts. There may well also be an element of turf protection -- patients may well ask about acupuncture and doctors will prefer to do this themselves than have them going to someone else. PM > PM I believe acupuncture is gaining acceptance in certain quarters because > medicine needs placebos in many situations and it is handy to have something EXCUSE ME PETER... you have persisted in repeating this fallacy again and again. It is proper that you have used the word "believe" and you are welcome to your opinion but... THE ONE TRUE ZHEN has gone to the trouble, with great patience, of providing links, patient explanations and examples that have answered all of the objections from both you and Richard Schultz. THE ONE TRUE ZHEN has completely refuted your position and the rather inane position taken by Richard. It would appear Richard is now trying to somehow wiggle out by repeating his totally refuted ideas and shouting ever more loudly his misinformed innuendo about Acupuncture. It is about time that ANY scientifically minded person admit the efficacy of Acupuncture, admit that it is here to stay, admit that it is being embraced by "standard" medicine and admit that it is most certainly NOT PLACEBO. Anesthesia, such as happened in the Reston example, and many others, was most certainly NOT PLACEBO and it is rather insulting to the readers to persist in making this assertion. The both of you SHOULD be thanking The One True Zhen profusely for going to the trouble of EDUCATING the both of you about a major development in modern medicine. Citizen Jimserac : THE ONE TRUE ZHEN has gone to the trouble, with : great patience, of providing links, patient explanations : and examples that have answered all of the objections : from both you and Richard Schultz. That statement is completely untrue. He has not even acknowledged the existence of the citations that I have listed on several occasions. He lacks the guts to admit that he has not read the paper that *he* touted as providing support for his claims (if he had read the paper, he would have found that the results it actually reports are not nearly as spectacular as the ones claimed in the press release). He (and, for that matter, you) refuses to express any interest in understanding the statistical problems with demonstrating the efficacy of acupuncture. He has cited a paper that reported that real and sham acupuncture gave indistinguishable results as demonstrating the efficacy of acupuncture. The extent to which acupuncture is "accepted" by the medical establishment is really the most minor part of my objection to it, since "being accepted" is not the same as "being true." ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ American Society for AnesthesiologyThe Society recognizes the Principles of Medical Ethics of the American Medical Association (AMA) Nuff said. "Peter Moran" <pmoran@internode.on.net Deleted. the key here..in your own language is "using accupuncture in conjunction with anesthesia agreed that chinese medicine may indeed to a good job of reducing such things as post op nausea etc... don't think anyone in mainstream China tho is having open heart surgery with accupuncture ALONE Obviously, Stanford doesn't have a monopoly on using acupuncture in conjunction with anesthesia. After all, it is known to reduce the amount of opiods needed and greatly reduce the risk of side effects from those meds. Check out this quote "Acupuncture is slowly becoming more accepted by American physicians, but it is still underutilized,” Gan said. “Studies like this, which show that there is a benefit to using it, should help give physicians sitting on the fence the data they need to integrate acupuncture into their routine care of surgery patients.” http://anesthesia.duke.edu/news/opioid-need.htm Acupuncture Reduces Pain, Need for Opioids after Surgery Posted: November 26, 2007 2:41 PM EST DURHAM, N.C. – Using acupuncture before and during surgery significantly reduces the level of pain and the amount of potent painkillers needed by patients after the surgery is over, according to Duke University Medical Center anesthesiologists who combined data from 15 small randomized acupuncture clinical trials. “While the amount of opioids needed for patients who received acupuncture was much lower than those who did not have acupuncture, the most important outcome for the patient is the reduction of the side effects associated with opioids,” said Tong Joo (T.J.) Gan, M.D., a Duke anesthesiologist who presented the results of the analysis at the annual scientific conference of the American Society for Anesthesiology in San Francisco. “These side effects can negatively impact a patient’s recovery from surgery and lengthen the time spent in the hospital.” Based on the results of this analysis, Gan recommends that acupuncture should be considered a viable option for pain control in surgery patients. Patients who received acupuncture had significantly lower risk of developing most common side effects associated with opioid drugs compared with control: 1.5 times lower rates of nausea, 1.3 times fewer incidences of severe itching, 1.6 times fewer reports of dizziness and 3.5 times fewer cases of urinary retention. Opioids are a class of medications that act on the body much like morphine. While they are effective in controlling pain, the side effects of the drugs often influence a patient’s recovery from, and satisfaction with, their surgery, Gan said. The results of this study add to the growing body of evidence that acupuncture can play an effective role in improving the quality of the surgical experience, Gan added. Numerous studies, some conducted by Gan, have demonstrated that acupuncture can also be more effective than current medications in lessening the occurrence of post operative nausea and vomiting, the most common side effect experienced by patients after surgery. "Acupuncture is slowly becoming more accepted by American physicians, but it is still underutilized,” Gan said. “Studies like this, which show that there is a benefit to using it, should help give physicians sitting on the fence the data they need to integrate acupuncture into their routine care of surgery patients.” Acupuncture has the added benefits of being inexpensive, with virtually no side effects, when done by properly trained personnel, Gan added. The Chinese have been using acupuncture for more than 5,000 years for the treatment of a variety of ailments, including headaches, gastrointestinal disorders and arthritis. According to Chinese healing practices, there are about 360 specific points along 14 different lines, or meridians, that course throughout the body just under the skin. “The Chinese believe that our vital energy, known as chi, flows throughout the body along these meridians,” Gan explained. “While healthiness is a state where the chi is in balance, unhealthiness or disease state arises from either too much or too little chi, or a blockage in the flow of the chi.” Different bodily locations or organs have their own distinct acupuncture points that are the targets for the acupuncturist. For example, a point just below the wrist is the common target for women undergoing breast procedures to prevent nausea and vomiting, another point at the back of the hand is effective in reducing pain. While it is not completely known why or how acupuncture works, recent research seems to point to its ability to stimulate the release of hormones or the body’s own painkillers, known as endorphins, Gan said. He is now conducting studies to determine the exact mechanism behind acupuncture’s effects. Other members of the research team included Yanxia Sun, John Dubose and Ashraf Habib. The meta-analysis was supported by Duke’s Department of Anesthesiology. : Obviously, Stanford doesn't have a monopoly on using acupuncture in : conjunction with anesthesia. After all, it is known to reduce the : amount of opiods needed and greatly reduce the risk of side effects : from those meds. If acupuncture is so wonderful, why is there any necessity for anesthesia whatsoever? Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article > <e3e5156b-7296-4919-ac34-75074a1e11ce@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If acupuncture is so wonderful, why is there any necessity for anesthesia > whatsoever? wondering that myself... > Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 > osteoarthritis study? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." The Aunties are grasping at straws again. On May 28, 2:31 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > In article > > <e3e5156b-7296-4919-ac34-75074a1e1...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > wondering that myself... Its very simple and a part of the article itself: "Patients who received acupuncture had significantly lower risk of developing most common side effects associated with opioid drugs compared with control: 1.5 times lower rates of nausea, 1.3 times fewer incidences of severe itching, 1.6 times fewer reports of dizziness and 3.5 times fewer cases of urinary retention." Those are pretty good reasons. Acupuncture improves conventional medicine as it does so many things in life. :> > If acupuncture is so wonderful, why is there any necessity for anesthesia :> > whatsoever? :> :> wondering that myself... : "Patients who received acupuncture had significantly lower risk of : developing most common side effects associated with opioid drugs [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : Those are pretty good reasons. Acupuncture improves conventional : medicine as it does so many things in life. According to your quotation from the report, acupuncture reduces side effects from anesthetics. Why can it not *replace* anesthetics (which was my original question, and one that as usual you failed to answer)? Didn't the Chinese "demonstrate" (heh heh) the use of acupuncture as a method of anesthesia when Nixon visited? Isn't the fellowship at Stanford in the anesthesiology department? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." > In article <d38b34f4-6f62-4336-9e4e-ae7094baf...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > According to your quotation from the report, acupuncture reduces side > effects from anesthetics. Yup. Isn't that a beautiful thing? > Why can it not *replace* anesthetics (which > was my original question, and one that as usual you failed to answer)? Why don't you ask why a piano can't replace a flute? No, Acupuncture can't replace everything in modern medicine nor would any reasonable person suggest such a thing. It does improve the safety and effiacy of anethesia just as it improves so many things in life. Heck, it improves mainstream medicine so much that over half of the UK MD's want to learn it. Universities such as Stanford, Harvard, Duke, UCLA, UNC, et al have MD's on staff who perform it. (Cue Richard to wish that he could get away with saying that reflexology is practiced by MD's at such universities. Cue him to wish he could get away with claiming that a single distance learning course that states a single condition for which reflexology _might_ be useful as proof that reflexology is a equivalent to a fellowship at Stanford.) > Didn't the Chinese "demonstrate" (heh heh) the use of acupuncture as > a method of anesthesia when Nixon visited? Stay off of the laughing gas, Richard. Yes, acupuncture was used quite successfully on James Reston, quite like Duke & Stanford use it today. Here is his story: http://www.acupuncture.com/testimonials/restonexp.htm In brief summary, the facts are that with the assistance of 11 of the leading medial specialists in Peking, who were asked by Premier Chou En-lai to cooperate on the case, Prof. Wu Wei-jan of the Anti- Imperialist Hospital's surgical staff removed my appendix on July 17 after a normal injection of Xylocain and Bensocain, which anesthetized the middle of my body. There were no complications, nausea or vomiting. I was conscious throughout, followed the instructions of Professor Wu as translated to me by Ma Yu-chen of the Chinese Foreign Ministry during the operation, and was back in my bedroom in the hospital in two and a half hours. However, I was in considerable discomfort if not pain during the second night after the operation, and Li Chang-yuan, doctor of acupuncture at the hospital, with my approval, inserted three long thin needles into the outer part of my right elbow and below my knees and manipulated them in order to stimulate the intestine and relieve the pressure and distension of the stomach. That sent ripples of pain racing through my limbs and, at least, had the effect of diverting my attention from the distress in my stomach. Meanwhile, Doctor Li lit two pieces of an herb called ai, which looked like the burning stumps of a broken cheap cigar, and held them close to my abdomen while occasionally twirling the needles into action. All this took about 20 minutes, during which I remember thinking that it was a rather complicated way to get rid of gas in the stomach, but there was noticeable relaxation of the pressure and distension within an hour and no recurrence of the problem thereafter. - > Isn't the fellowship at Stanford in the anesthesiology department? Ah, progress! Yes, of course there is a an Acupuncture anesthesiology fellowship at Stanford. Not long ago, you described acupuncture at Stanford by saying "I do not know what the procedure is for getting a course approved there; I could easily believe that one faculty member was able to talk the rest into being allowed to give the course. How many students were *enrolled* in the course last year?" The Stanford website clearly stated the names of 5 MD faculty members that run the fellowship program. Of course, if you had chosen to read about the program, it may not have been so easy for you to believe that one faculty member was able to talk the rest into being allowed to give the course. As usual, the reality is far different than your beliefs. This isn't something that one person has forced on the rest of the faculty. This is a bona-fide fellowship and a great source of pride. Clearly, what you could easily believe is easily proven wrong. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." :> According to your quotation from the report, acupuncture reduces side :> effects from anesthetics. : : Yup. Isn't that a beautiful thing? Almost as beautiful as the citations that I posted that you refuse to address or even to acknowledge. In case you've forgotten: Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" "Richard Schultz" feels the need to repeat the same thing over and over. Must have got his so-called Ph.D in repeating. chirp > In article <0048d5b0-85b5-49da-92c0-978750201...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > <crickets chirping> Richard!!! Gee you know I really feel bad for you, you know, a smart person like yourself, and a "SCIENTIST" and yet persisting in this hopeless attempt at wiggling out from the COMPLETE AND TOTAL REFUTATION of your rather tenuous position on Acupuncture. Give it up "Horatio", YOU'VE LOST. (Psst! Everyone else, please DO NOT tell Richard about THIS link, http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf it will really spoil his day! Citizen Jimserac "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." : Gee you know I really feel bad for you, : you know, a smart person like yourself, : and a "SCIENTIST" and yet persisting : in this hopeless attempt at wiggling out : from the COMPLETE AND TOTAL REFUTATION : of your rather tenuous position on Acupuncture. Have *you* read even one of the articles that I cited that gave negative results for their tests of acupuncture? I didn't think so. Do you even know what my position on acupuncture is? I didn't think so. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight > In article <c225629d-3bdc-427b-b412-05b930012...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > results for their tests of acupuncture? I didn't think so. Do you even > know what my position on acupuncture is? I didn't think so. I do! Here it is, just the way you said it: "What is actually now well known about acupuncture is that it does not work." Sure, you've said that you were being sarcastic, but that would mean that you believe the opposite of what you wrote. So, either you meant that Acupuncture does not work or you meant that it does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm Sarcasm[A] is stating the opposite of an intended meaning especially in order to sneeringly, slyly, jest or mock a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight : I do! Here it is, just the way you said it: "What is actually now : well known about acupuncture is that it does not work." : Sure, you've said that you were being sarcastic, but that would mean : that you believe the opposite of what you wrote. So, either you meant : that Acupuncture does not work or you meant that it does. Once again, you show your inability to perform anything along the line of logical reasoning. For a *correct* definition of "sarcasm," I suggest that you consult http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/S0088400.html. Let us know if the word "opposite" appears anywhere in that definition (the one taken from the American Heritage Dictionary). I'm still waiting for you to come up with an example of a statement that I have posted since 2003 in which I expressed any opinion of acupuncture other than its not having been proven to work. While you're looking for that, you may want to consider the following questions as well: Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article <31400687-d6d6-4912-9a0e-0aba0ff9b...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I have posted since 2003 in which I expressed any opinion of acupuncture > other than its not having been proven to work. You called it "moonshine" http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/653b55f493dfa7d5 You are correct that I mean "allergy" in its medical sense. After : all, I do practice medicine, Richard. No, you practice moonshine. ----------- It is clear that you didn't mean that acupuncture, like moonshine, is known to work but is of unknown proof. After all, that would have indicated a sense of humor and an understanding of analogies. What you have indicated is that when you're quoted saying "...that is actually now well known about acupuncture is that it does not work." you get upset. You wish to indicate that you didn't meant that acupuncture doesn't work and that your words do not in any way indicate that. When you say that you were being sarcastic, you mean that you weren't speaking the opposite of what you meant nor did you mean anything that could be construed as a statement on whether or not acupuncture works. You repeatedly insisted that the NIH website does not specifically list any conditions for which acupuncture is efficacious, even though you had read and replied to that list. When I warned to stop lying by falsely attributing things to me, you told me to bring it on and let's see what happens when I catch you. You then repeatedly insisted that _I_ cited a website and based an argument upon that, yet I never did. When I caught you it that lie, you didn't have the decency to apologize, you acted true to form with lame denials. You have a serious problem with the denotations of words. A perfect example is how you spent the last 10 months trying to convince yourself that acupuncture is not accepted within mainstream medicine. You have some bizarre notion that mainstream medicine only accecpts practices that are taught as a part of the "standard" curriculum. When presented with several counter examples, you came up with an even more bizarre notion. You decided to redefine the word "standard" in a way that is completely inconsistent with how that word is used in the context of medical school curriculums. UNC Medical school neatly dispelled your idiosyncratic definition. If you had been able to put aside your prejudices ("...that is actually now well known about acupuncture is that it does not work.") and accept the facts, you could have had last week's ephiphany in July of 2007. Now, 10 months later, you finally get it. Unfortunately, that is as far as you've gotten. You still don't know (or at least claim not to) that you're anti-acupuncture. This lack of insight into your own behavior and motivation is quite fascinating, yet pathetic. I am reminded of the wax-on/wax-off scene in the movie "Karate Kid ". In order to have a proper foundation upon which to learn karate, Daniel had to learn the proper movements. While he didn't realize that at first, he at least understood what the wax was and how to apply it. You would have argued with Mr Miagi by saying "...that is actually now well known that auto wax does not work." When told to show the movements "wax-on" & "wax-off", you'd argue "Mr Miagi, there is _no_ wax, I'm just moving my hands. Nothing is being applied or removed!" In Oriental cultures, such contrariness gets you kicked out of class. Yet, I will leave no child behind, not even the contrary son. I'll just have to take you through the process in baby steps. I'll have to endure a lot of your automatic nay-saying, idiosyncratic definitions, and your dearth of critical thinking. Yes, I'll have to get Remedial on you. Before we can have a truly meaningful discussion, you need some help with critical thinking. Sure, I could skip that part, but you wouldn't have a proper foundation for understanding. Contrary to your "implementation", critical thinking isn't automatic nay-saying of anything outside of your belief system. It isn't the denial that things clearly posted on authoritative website are posted there. It isn't making a false equivalance between Harvard & Stanford's acupuncture programs (and 20,000+ MD acupuncturists in the US) and a single non-MD reflexologist who practices in a hospital. It most certainly isn't the assumptiont that the AMA accredits medical schools. <Foghorn Leghorn> Damn, son, even a hound dog knows you don’t put a fox in charge of the hen house! (Boy's duller than a sack o' wet mice...) </Foghorn Leghorn> All of that, and yet you say "So far, I have not deviated from rationality in the least:.." <two minute laughter break> It is going to take a lot of work on my part, but I can't do this without your help, Richard. I need you to begin by being honest with yourself. You like to say that you are unbiased, but your words tell a far different story. You do not like acupuncture. In many instances, you've lied or been mistaken on the facts. In all of those instances, the lies or errors were "against" acupuncture, big surprise! You've never accidentally made any mistake that could be construed as "favorable" to acupuncture and your lies are purely anti- acupuncture. Even more interesting is that you don't seem to have this problem with any other topic. You may prove me wrong by citing such an example, but I'm sure you won't. If you are capable, go ahead and admit to yourself that you don't like acupuncture. It is your right to feel that way, but it is _unrealistic_ to expect others to believe you feel otherwise. Until you are capable of acknowledging that fact, I'm going to have to spoon- feed you a diet of critical thinking enriched with articles on how mainstream medicine teaches, practices, and advocates acupuncture. After all, acupuncture is everywhere you want to be, Richard! : http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/653b55f493dfa7d5 : : You are correct that I mean "allergy" in its medical sense. After : : all, I do practice medicine, Richard. : : No, you practice moonshine. : It is clear that you didn't mean that acupuncture, like moonshine, is : known to work but is of unknown proof. After all, that would have : indicated a sense of humor and an understanding of analogies. What *you* practice is moonshine. Until you present evidence for the existence of Chi and meridians, I will continue to maintain that. I have stated on numerous occasions that *if* acupuncture works, it almost certainly does *not* work because of "unbalanced chi." That is the moonshine that you practice. And you know that it's moonshine -- not only do you refuse to provide any evidence for the existence of chi or of meridians, but when I asked you to *define* chi, you ran away as soon as I pointed out that your attempts at definition either made no sense, or disagreed with those of experts in acupuncture, or both; when I cited an article that gave a history of the idea of "meridians" and asked you to explain what was incorrect in the article, you refused to do so; when I point out to you that reflexology is based on concepts remarkably similar to those on which acupuncture is based, you tell us that you are not interested in reflexology, but you cannot give any reason why it should not work other than a very weak argument from authority. But since you bring up the subject: Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." Deleting the repeated that has been repeated and repeated, repeatedly. Poor Richard. : Deleting the repeated that has been repeated and repeated, repeatedly. Why, in your opinion, does Mr. Kingoff refuse to answer simple "yes" or "no" questions? It can hardly be because he's never seen them. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote: > Jan Drew <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > : Deleting the repeated that has been repeated and repeated, repeatedly. > > Mr. Kingoff Is not the subject. Make a note of it hypocrite. > ----- > Richard Schultz : Is not the subject. Make a note of it hypocrite. What part of the article that I posted under the subject of "A lesson in netiquette" was too difficult for you to understand? I mean, besides the part written in English. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ Jan Drew <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Deleting the repeated that has been repeated and repeated, repeatedly. > Mr. Kingoff Is not the subject. Make a note of it hypocrite. In article <29693db8- c020-407f-8cfd-51aa4cd19...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: : http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/653b55f493... : : You are correct that I mean "allergy" in its medical sense. After : : all, I do practice medicine, Richard. : : No, you practice moonshine. : It is clear that you didn't mean that acupuncture, like moonshine, is : known to work but is of unknown proof. After all, that would have : indicated a sense of humor and an understanding of analogies. >What *you* practice is moonshine. Until you present evidence for the >existence of Chi and meridians, I will continue to maintain that. I have >stated on numerous occasions that *if* acupuncture works, it almost certainly >does *not* work because of "unbalanced chi." That is the moonshine that >you practice. You continue to maintain highly irrational behavior while discussing acupuncture. Not only that, what you’ve written (twice) is not only wrong; it isn’t even what you meant. You meant to say that *if* acupuncture works, it almost certainly does *not* work because rectifies imbalances of chi." >And you know that it's moonshine – Fascinating. Just 6 weeks ago, you wrote this: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/0000e5afff69a5da >I understand that if acupuncture were proven not to be effective, it would >not only impact Mr. Kingoff's livelihood; although, given the number of >people who are passionate supporters of outright charlatans, of whom I >hasten to emphasize Mr. Kingoff is *not* one, I doubt that it would affect >his livelihood much. This is yet another of your many failings in applying critical thinking. It is improper form to hold two, mutually contradictory beliefs. For example, you say that you’ve never said that acupuncture does not work yet you have said exactly that and continue to argue that point. You say that I’m not an outright charlatan, then you say that I knowingly commit fraud. Well, you’ve now joined the ranks of prominent defamers as Ilena Rosenthal. Richard, I’m sure you feel quite at home in such company and I know you’re suitable proud of yourself. >not only do you refuse >to provide any evidence for the existence of chi or of meridians, but when >I asked you to *define* chi, you ran away as soon as I pointed out that >your attempts at definition either made no sense, or disagreed with those of >experts in acupuncture, Just because you don’t understand qi doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense. After all, it doesn't make sense to you that acupuncture is being taught to MD's at Harvard or that Stanford has a fellowship in it. To calmer, more enlightened minds, it makes perfect sense. Yes, it makes perfect sense to about a billion people as they apply it within medicine, martial arts, meditation, and music. These people are not only in the far east, but in practice at Harvard, Stanford, UCLA, Duke, UNC, the US Airforce, etc. They, like acupuncture, are everywhere you want to be. >or both; when I cited an article that gave a >history of the idea of "meridians" and asked you to explain what was incorrect >in the article, you refused to do so; <Sigh> It took 10 months for me to break through your prejudiced, dishonest, and pointless objection to the fact that acupuncture is well accepted by mainstream medicine. That was a pretty easy concept to grasp. Your problem was that your prejudice blinded you. You assumed that since YOU do not think acupuncture works, it should not be accepted by mainstream medicine. Fortunately, calmer and more enlightened minds have prevailed and acupuncture flourishes. If you had demonstrated critical thinking, you would have reached the proper conclusion much sooner. Instead, what you have demonstrated is a total lack of insight into your disdain for Acupuncture (and TCM). Sure, you’ve made numerous criticisms, but the noise to signal ratio is approaching the population of China itself. You’ve got a whole lot to learn about cognitive dissonance, critical thinking, and the importance of being honest with yourself. When you are capable of putting aside your fear of the unknown, I’ll be glad to introduce you to the wonders of the meridian system. >when I point out to you that >reflexology is based on concepts remarkably similar to those on which >acupuncture is based, you tell us that you are not interested in reflexology, Reflexology is based on Yin and Yang, Zang Fu, & 5 Elements? Get outta here! I had no idea, please show me where you found that gem. As for your second part, I agree. I’m no more interested in reflexology than a radiologist is in radionics. >but you cannot give any reason why it should not work other than a very >weak argument from authority. I don’t recall ever saying that it should not work. Why don’t you be a good fellow and share with us your basis for making that statement. <tumbleweeds rolling in the breeze>. I’m just not interested in reflexology. In all my training in acupuncture school, I never heard the word mentioned in class nor in any of my texts. It’s just not a part of TCM. It seems that you, on the other hand, are quite interested in discussing reflexology. Since you can’t make acupuncture go way, you’re trying guilt by indirect association. Its like saying that Jiu- Jitsu doesn’t work because Joe San Do, which claims some basis in Jiu Jitsu, doesn’t work. Why don’t you get some help with analogies, then do some research on reflexology, and get back to us with your conclusions? <Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:252b2b4c-5d4a-43d5-845e-754039674cee@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... In article <29693db8- c020-407f-8cfd-51aa4cd19...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: : http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/653b55f493... : : You are correct that I mean "allergy" in its medical sense. After : : all, I do practice medicine, Richard. : : No, you practice moonshine. : It is clear that you didn't mean that acupuncture, like moonshine, is : known to work but is of unknown proof. After all, that would have : indicated a sense of humor and an understanding of analogies. >What *you* practice is moonshine. Until you present evidence for the >existence of Chi and meridians, I will continue to maintain that. I have >stated on numerous occasions that *if* acupuncture works, it almost >certainly >does *not* work because of "unbalanced chi." That is the moonshine that >you practice. You continue to maintain highly irrational behavior while discussing acupuncture. Not only that, what you’ve written (twice) is not only wrong; it isn’t even what you meant. You meant to say that *if* acupuncture works, it almost certainly does *not* work because rectifies imbalances of chi." >And you know that it's moonshine – Fascinating. Just 6 weeks ago, you wrote this: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/0000e5afff69a5da >I understand that if acupuncture were proven not to be effective, it would >not only impact Mr. Kingoff's livelihood; although, given the number of >people who are passionate supporters of outright charlatans, of whom I >hasten to emphasize Mr. Kingoff is *not* one, I doubt that it would affect >his livelihood much. This is yet another of your many failings in applying critical thinking. It is improper form to hold two, mutually contradictory beliefs. For example, you say that you’ve never said that acupuncture does not work yet you have said exactly that and continue to argue that point. You say that I’m not an outright charlatan, then you say that I knowingly commit fraud. Well, you’ve now joined the ranks of prominent defamers as Ilena Rosenthal. Richard, I’m sure you feel quite at home in such company and I know you’re suitable proud of yourself. ------------------------------------------------ Oops, Andy, you were doing OK until you start naming others and insulting. You are famous as a defamer with a filthy mouth. Having said that--as I posted on this subject you are correct. Richard is wrong, and he knows it. He is too proud to correct his mistakes and lies. Now--that he has been backed into a corner he chooses to repeat himself over and over- making a complete fool of himself. >not only do you refuse >to provide any evidence for the existence of chi or of meridians, but when >I asked you to *define* chi, you ran away as soon as I pointed out that >your attempts at definition either made no sense, or disagreed with those >of >experts in acupuncture, Just because you don’t understand qi doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense. After all, it doesn't make sense to you that acupuncture is being taught to MD's at Harvard or that Stanford has a fellowship in it. To calmer, more enlightened minds, it makes perfect sense. Yes, it makes perfect sense to about a billion people as they apply it within medicine, martial arts, meditation, and music. These people are not only in the far east, but in practice at Harvard, Stanford, UCLA, Duke, UNC, the US Airforce, etc. They, like acupuncture, are everywhere you want to be. >or both; when I cited an article that gave a >history of the idea of "meridians" and asked you to explain what was >incorrect >in the article, you refused to do so; <Sigh> It took 10 months for me to break through your prejudiced, dishonest, and pointless objection to the fact that acupuncture is well accepted by mainstream medicine. That was a pretty easy concept to grasp. Your problem was that your prejudice blinded you. You assumed that since YOU do not think acupuncture works, it should not be accepted by mainstream medicine. Fortunately, calmer and more enlightened minds have prevailed and acupuncture flourishes. If you had demonstrated critical thinking, you would have reached the proper conclusion much sooner. Instead, what you have demonstrated is a total lack of insight into your disdain for Acupuncture (and TCM). Sure, you’ve made numerous criticisms, but the noise to signal ratio is approaching the population of China itself. You’ve got a whole lot to learn about cognitive dissonance, critical thinking, and the importance of being honest with yourself. When you are capable of putting aside your fear of the unknown, I’ll be glad to introduce you to the wonders of the meridian system. >when I point out to you that >reflexology is based on concepts remarkably similar to those on which >acupuncture is based, you tell us that you are not interested in >reflexology, Reflexology is based on Yin and Yang, Zang Fu, & 5 Elements? Get outta here! I had no idea, please show me where you found that gem. As for your second part, I agree. I’m no more interested in reflexology than a radiologist is in radionics. >but you cannot give any reason why it should not work other than a very >weak argument from authority. I don’t recall ever saying that it should not work. Why don’t you be a good fellow and share with us your basis for making that statement. <tumbleweeds rolling in the breeze>. I’m just not interested in reflexology. In all my training in acupuncture school, I never heard the word mentioned in class nor in any of my texts. It’s just not a part of TCM. It seems that you, on the other hand, are quite interested in discussing reflexology. Since you can’t make acupuncture go way, you’re trying guilt by indirect association. Its like saying that Jiu- Jitsu doesn’t work because Joe San Do, which claims some basis in Jiu Jitsu, doesn’t work. Why don’t you get some help with analogies, then do some research on reflexology, and get back to us with your conclusions? : You continue to maintain highly irrational behavior while discussing : acupuncture. Considering that you refuse to have anything approaching a rational discussion of acupuncture, that's pretty funny. : http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/0000e5afff69a5da : [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : This is yet another of your many failings in applying critical : thinking. You wouldn't know what critical thinking was if it bit you. : It is improper form to hold two, mutually contradictory beliefs. You mean like the belief that modern medicine is useful, but that bodily complaints are caused by imbalances in "chi"? : For example, you say that you?ve never said that acupuncture : does not work yet you have said exactly that and continue to argue : that point. I really don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand that what I have been arguing is that *acupuncture has not been DEMONSTRATED to work* not that acupuncture does not work. Well, now that I think about it, I guess I do understand why. : You say that I?m not an outright charlatan, then you say : that I knowingly commit fraud. I suggest that you read Martin Gardner's book _Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science_, which is more than fifty years old but still a classic. He describes the strange mixture of honest belief and charlatanism that marks the practitioners of pseudo-science. In your case, it is obvious that you honestly believe that acupuncture is effective, which means that you are not a charlatan in that sense. On the other hand, as a health care giver, you have an ethical obligation to your patients to keep up with the latest information in your field. When you continue to treat them for addiction to smoking because you are unaware of the evidence that acupuncture is not an effective treatment for curing addiction to smoking, then you are failing in your ethical obligation to be aware of that evidence. Now that you have been made aware of the evidence and are clearly choosing to ignore it, you are coming dangerously close to the line of defrauding any patient who comes to you for treatment for his addiction. Unfortunately for you, life is not so simple as you would like to have it, and it is quite possible for a person to honestly believe that something works and yet to use unethical means to promote that which he honestly believes to be true. : Well, you?ve now joined the ranks of : prominent defamers as Ilena Rosenthal. Richard, I?m sure you feel : quite at home in such company and I know you?re suitable proud of : yourself. If you are that confident that I have defamed you, file a suit against me for libel. You'll lose, but it will be amusing to put you on the stand and to force you to answer under oath the questions that you consistently ignore. Maybe you'll be able to call the guy who is the nominal course head of the Harvard CME course on acupuncture and *he'll* answer the questions that I sent him and which *he* ignored. :>not only do you refuse :>to provide any evidence for the existence of chi or of meridians, but when [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : Just because you don?t understand qi doesn?t mean that it doesn?t make : sense. What I said was that *your explanations* didn't make any sense, even on their own terms. And, as I pointed out, they seem to diverge from the opinions of experts in the field. You'll recall that I quoted several acupuncture web sites to you and that you responded in your usual fashion (i.e. ignored any evidence that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions). : After all, it doesn't make sense to you that acupuncture is being taught to : MD's at Harvard or that Stanford has a fellowship in it. Actually, it does make sense to me in the way that Dr. Moran understands it -- in some cases, treatment by placebo may be preferable to more invasive means. I have on previous occasions given my opinion that one good thing that many doctors could learn from practitioners of "alternative" medicine is the idea of individual involvement with the patient (e.g. treating him as a person to be cured rather than as a machine to be fixed). If that aspect of treatment is taught to these MDs, then their learning acupuncture will not have been a total waste of time. : To calmer, more enlightened minds, it makes perfect sense. Yes, : it makes perfect sense to about a billion people as they apply it : within medicine, martial arts, meditation, and music. I think that the number of people who apply astrology is probably of a similar magnitude. Does that mean that we should start teaching astrology to people who are learning counselling in any of its forms? : These people are not only in the far east, but in practice at Harvard, : Stanford, UCLA, Duke, UNC, the US Airforce, etc. They, like acupuncture, are : everywhere you want to be. As I pointed out to you, in the early 1950's, lobotomy was (for a few years) an increasingly popular method of treatment. Popularity is no indication of efficacy. :>or both; when I cited an article that gave a :>history of the idea of "meridians" and asked you to explain what was :>incorrect in the article, you refused to do so; : <Sigh> It took 10 months for me to break through your prejudiced, : dishonest, and pointless objection to the fact that acupuncture is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : be accepted by mainstream medicine. Fortunately, calmer and more : enlightened minds have prevailed and acupuncture flourishes. That is totally nonresponsive to the point that I made, which is that I cited a *specific article* and you refused to acknowledge that article. : If you had demonstrated critical thinking, you would have reached the : proper conclusion much sooner. I demonstrated critical thinking -- I read an article that gave a very plausible explanation of how the concept of "meridians" originated. Since plausibility is not necessarily a guarantee of truth (especially in explanations of historical events), I asked someone who might be in a position to correct any errors of fact in the article. That person refused to do so, which led me to the obvious conclusion. : Instead, what you have demonstrated is : a total lack of insight into your disdain for Acupuncture (and TCM). Too bad that you don't know what my actual opinions of TCM are. : Sure, you?ve made numerous criticisms, but the noise to signal ratio : is approaching the population of China itself. In that case, I would opine that there *is* no signal. : You?ve got a whole lot : to learn about cognitive dissonance, critical thinking, and the : importance of being honest with yourself. Considering that you are a prime demonstration of the former, and the incapacity to perform either of the latter, it's unlikely that I shall learn it from you. : Reflexology is based on Yin and Yang, Zang Fu, & 5 Elements? Get : outta here! I had no idea, please show me where you found that gem. Reflexology is based on the idea that there are "zones" (aka meridians) that run vertically along the body, and that treatment of ailments can be effected by pressure applied to an appropriate point along the relevant zone. How this differs from "meridians" and acupuncture points is not at all clear to me. You could, of course, provide some kind of objective evidence for the existence of meridians and how those meridians behave in a way inconsistent with the tenets of reflexology. :>but you cannot give any reason why it should not work other than a very :>weak argument from authority. : : I don?t recall ever saying that it should not work. Why don?t you be : a good fellow and share with us your basis for making that statement. If you thought that reflexology might work, then as a health care provider, you would be remiss in your duties by not making at least a superficial investigation thereof. That you refuse to make even such a superficial investigation implies that you believe that reflexology does not work. But since you are such an expert at critical thinking, why don't you have a go at the following questions: Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the citations that I posted that present evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo in treating people addicted to smoking? Have you read the article that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is not effective against constipation? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote > Once again Once?? Liar. Deleting the repeated that has been repeated and repeated, repeatedly. Poor Richard. <crickets chirping> "Richard Schultz" |
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