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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2008Acupuncture Training at University of Miami Medical School
It just keeps getting worse and worse for those with blind hatred of acupuncture. The faux-skeptics, specifically Martin & Richard, have a fanatical devotion to the ideas that acupuncture doesn't work and is not accepted within mainstream medicine. In an angry burst of anti-logic, Richard Schultz equates clinical training to perform a procedure to be the equivalent of discussing the definition & history of a particular modality. He goes on to simultaneously assert that acupuncture, which is taught to MD's to practice in clinic is not accepted by mainstream medicine but reflexology, by virtue of being discussed in medical schools, is accepted by mainstream medicine. Hey, I know that is pretty weird, but that is how 'dat cat thinks. At any rate, he has asked me to correct him, if wrong, about his notion that only one Med School teaches MD's to practice acupuncture in clinic. I graciously accept. No, Harvard isn't alone and Stanford's Clinical Internship in Medical Acupuncture isn't its only buddy. http://www.med.miami.edu/psychiatry/cam/acupuncture.asp#medstu On May 23, 12:42 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > It just keeps getting worse and worse for those with blind hatred of > acupuncture. The faux-skeptics, specifically Martin & Richard, have [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://www.med.miami.edu/psychiatry/cam/acupuncture.asp#medstu Woo, knockout blow, ...8,9,10 -> Richard, you're OUT! Someone get him to his corner and start fanning him with a towel. Also, somebody find a copy of that Flexner report, I need more paper to wrap up some dead fish with. Citizen Jimserac > On May 23, 12:42 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Also, somebody find a copy of that Flexner report, > I need more paper to wrap up some dead fish with. Richard has requested that I tell you to cease and desist making appeals to authority. Please do so immediately as his main goal is to teach you (and me) how to think critically. (LOL!) > Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - On May 23, 3:54 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On May 23, 12:42 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > to think critically. > (LOL!) Thanks for passing along the message and tell Rich I've got my copy of "Alice in Wonderland" and am reading it right now! Citizen Jimserac > On May 23, 3:54 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > tell Rich I've got my copy of "Alice in Wonderland" > and am reading it right now! I don't know if we'll be hearing further from Rich on this topic. Even Martin has declared (his disgust) that acupuncture is accepted by mainstream medicine. I wonder how long Richard will insist that it is not accepted, but that reflexology is. I guess that boy does not and will not understand the distinction between teaching the history of method vs teaching physicians to use that method to treat patients. Medical schools teach about the use of calomel (sp?) in the past. By Richard's logic, they are teaching MD's calomel usage. Whatta maroon! In contrast, when I say that acupuncture is accepted by mainstream medicine, I show acupuncture fellowships, clinical training programs, usage in the USAF, and the NIH's & WHO's seal of approval. Acupuncture is more widely used in 2008 than in the year 8, the year 1008, or at any time in the past. It is flourishing under the scrutiny of modern science. We are quite fortunate for this happy circumstance! > Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - >> On May 23, 3:54 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >will not understand the distinction between teaching the history of >method vs teaching physicians to use that method to treat patients. Andrew, can you please answer the question I asked you before: why do you appear to want to be buddies with Jimserac, who is an anti-vac liar who'd like to see children suffer from vaccine preventable diseases? Is the fact that he likes acupuncture sufficient for you to overlook that major character flaw? >Medical schools teach about the use of calomel (sp?) in the past. By >Richard's logic, they are teaching MD's calomel usage. Whatta maroon! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > On Sat, 24 May 2008 06:46:26 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > liar who'd like to see children suffer from vaccine preventable > diseases? We happen to agree on some matters regarding Acupuncture. Should I take a position contrary to his (and mine) simply because we disagree on a different topic? Should I stop being a proponent of acupuncture until he changes his view of vaccination? If he and I like the same restaurant, should I quit going because of his position on vaccination? > Is the fact that he likes acupuncture sufficient for you to overlook that major character flaw? He is clearly mistaken about vaccination. Happy? > >Medical schools teach about the use of calomel (sp?) in the past. By > >Richard's logic, they are teaching MD's calomel usage. Whatta maroon! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> On May 23, 3:54 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >restaurant, should I quit going because of his position on >vaccination? No, but it looks like if you see him in the restaurant, you ask him to join you at your table. That is going a step too far imo. In fact, if I saw him in a restaurant, I'd turn around and leave and come back another time. It wouldn't change my opinion about the restaurant, it's just that I'd loose my appetite from seeing him. >> Is the fact that he likes acupuncture sufficient for you to overlook that major character flaw? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Martin's idiot dribble cut. > On Sat, 24 May 2008 11:36:29 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > >> - Show quoted text - Martin!!! Are you the dude who told us in another thread that you did not think Dr. Rustum Roy PhD in materials science knew that the burning water was from the dissociation of hydrogen and oxygen?? Are YOU the dude who resorts to hysteria and hatred when proven wrong. Now you be nice and you REFUTE my position on vaccinations instead of having to boo hoo the woo and having to rue... Or I'll be forced (sigh!) to reinstitue my ban on responding. Now you don't want that I'm sure because then you'll be denied the incredible responses and repartee which only a Citizen Jimserac post can contain (yeah along with a lot of mixed up stuff and errors, even Citizen Jimserac gets it wrong now and again!!!) So you and Rich need to just accept that both of your heads have been used as mops to mop up the fallacies you two have been spouting about Acupuncture. Go get a shampoo and you can try again, if you don't mind that sort of thing! Citizen Jimserac : Martin!!! Are you the dude who told us in another thread that you did : not think Dr. Rustum Roy PhD in materials science knew that the : burning water was from the dissociation of hydrogen and oxygen?? I have read many of Rustum Roy's letters to Chemical & Engineering News over the years, and it is fairly obvious that whatever his credentials once were, he is no longer entirely with it, if you know what I mean. Even if that were not the case, you are treading on dangerous ground when you make that kind of argument. After all, I have a Ph. D. in physical chemistry -- of the two of us, which one do you think knows more about the structure of liquid water? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot." > In article <d187741e-bb0d-4ae2-8244-34da047e4...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > physical chemistry -- of the two of us, which one do you think knows more > about the structure of liquid water? Was that an APPEAL TO AUTHORITY I just read? No? YES!... No. YES!!! No, it could not be... YES IT COULD BE! Well allright, while I've got you here, could you please tell me about shaking a vial of water -> if these oligomer structures whose 3D spatial arrangements can hold patterns exist that Dr. Rustum Roy says are present, Dr. Peter Moran says why would the shaking not break up the structures rather than cause them to form, as the Homeopathists claim? Any thoughts? Your humble respondent Citizen Jimserac Next time One True Zhen throws an irrefutable right cross at you DUCK! :> In article <d187741e-bb0d-4ae2-8244-34da047e4...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: :> : Martin!!! Are you the dude who told us in another thread that you did :> : not think Dr. Rustum Roy PhD in materials science knew that the :> : burning water was from the dissociation of hydrogen and oxygen?? :> Even if that were not the case, you are treading on dangerous ground :> when you make that kind of argument. After all, I have a Ph. D. in :> physical chemistry -- of the two of us, which one do you think knows more :> about the structure of liquid water? : Was that an APPEAL TO AUTHORITY I just read? No, it was an example of how your argument that Rustum Roy, Ph.D. must know what he is talking about because he has a Ph.D. can backfire on you because the *same argument* can be used to demonstrated that I must know what I am talking about because I have a Ph.D. The two arguments are equally fallacious; but if *you* accept the one, then *you* have to accept the other. Or you can be like me and accept neither of them. I've known plenty of incompetent Ph.D.'s in my time; all that the degree proves is that a person could make it through 4-6 years of graduate school without seriously annoying anyone. It's no guarantee of competence, although it may be evidence for competence. : No? YES!... No. YES!!! No, it could not be... YES IT COULD BE! For someone who makes such a big deal about how good he is at logical thinking, you have a remarkably poor ability to follow an argument to its conclusion. : Well allright, while I've got you here, could you please tell me about : shaking a vial of water -> if these oligomer structures whose [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : : Any thoughts? I think that Dr. Moran knows a lot more about chemistry than you do. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight >> In article <d187741e-bb0d-4ae2-8244-34da047e4...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >3D spatial arrangements can hold patterns exist >that Dr. Rustum Roy says are present, Was that an appeal to authority I just.... oops, sorry: ... APPEAL TO AUTHORITY I just read? >Dr. Peter Moran says why would the shaking >not break up the structures rather >than cause them to form, as the Homeopathists >claim? > >Any thoughts? It wouldn't, because those structures are imaginary. It's like debating if gnomes would trip over tall grass. >Your humble respondent >Citizen Jimserac >Next time One True Zhen throws an irrefutable >right cross at you DUCK! > In article <d187741e-bb0d-4ae2-8244-34da047e4...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > physical chemistry -- of the two of us, which one do you think knows more > about the structure of liquid water? Thank you for acknowledging that the anethesiologists teaching acupuncture at Stanford know more about acupuncture, its clinical results, and research than you. Not that treading on dangerous ground seems to deter you. After all, you've proven that you will lie about what you have said and will cheerfully attribute some of those lies to me. Still, we have made some progress in educating you about how widespread acupuncture's acceptance is in mainstream medicine. If someone told you a year ago that Stanford has a fellowship in Acupuncture Anethesiology, you would have pompously declared "What is well know about Stanford is that they do not have acupuncture fellowships and what is well known acupuncture is that it doesn't work". Despite being a slow-learner, you have learned how foolish it is to deny acupuncture's acceptance within mainstream medicine. Next, we'll see if you are capable of embracing its efficacy. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, > but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot." :> Even if that were not the case, you are treading on dangerous ground :> when you make that kind of argument. ?After all, I have a Ph. D. in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : acupuncture at Stanford know more about acupuncture, its clinical : results, and research than you. I make no such acknowledgment, and your saying that I have demonstrates either that you are incapable of logical reasoning or that you are a liar. Take your pick. : Next, we'll see if you are capable of embracing its efficacy. Have you read the original article in which the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study were reported? Have you read any of the citations that I posted in February? Have you read either of the articles that I cited that presented results indicating that acupuncture works no better than a placebo in aiding people who are trying to stop smoking? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" Thump thump thump.......... the sound of a weenie thumping his sunken chest. > In article > <d187741e-bb0d-4ae2-8244-34da047e4d45@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, > but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot." >> On Sat, 24 May 2008 11:36:29 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue >> [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] >knew that the burning water was from the >dissociation of hydrogen and oxygen?? I didn't tell you, I informed you of a fact. >Are YOU the dude who resorts to hysteria >and hatred when proven wrong. I'm not the one who hates children so much that he wants to see them suffer from vaccine preventable diseases. >Now you be nice and you REFUTE my position >on vaccinations instead of having to boo hoo >the woo and having to rue... I'd try if I thought there was a point to it. Unfortunately, your skull is made of several inches of reinforced stainless steel which is inpenetrable to facts. >Or I'll be forced (sigh!) to reinstitue >my ban on responding. Oh please no! Not the ban on responding! Please. > Now you don't want >that I'm sure because then you'll be denied [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >you two have been spouting about >Acupuncture. Amazing how idiots like you always project their own shortcomings on others. All I've seen from both you and Andrew is that argumentum ad populum as evidence that acupuncture works. Which puts it on par with astrology. Come to think of it, that's were it belongs. > Go get a shampoo >and you can try again, if you don't >mind that sort of thing! > >Citizen Jimserac > On Sat, 24 May 2008 11:36:29 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > another time. It wouldn't change my opinion about the restaurant, it's > just that I'd loose my appetite from seeing him. Next time you go out to eat, be sure to interview the entire restaurant staff. You may find an anti-vac person washing dishes, preparing food, bussing tables, or seating patrons. You most certainly don't want to patronize a place that wouldn't screen out such people! Make sure that any franchise restaurants you like don't have any stockholders who happen to be anti-vac, just avoid that franchise entirely. Equally important, you must check the supply line of the restaurant (and grocery store) to make sure no anti-vac people are employed. Oh, and lets not overlook the health inspector. You don't want to eat at a restaurant inspected by an anti-vac. Perhaps you should ask yo' mama how to handle eating out in a world of people who don't all share your beliefs. > >> Is the fact that he likes acupuncture sufficient for you to overlook that major character flaw? > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> On Sat, 24 May 2008 06:46:26 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >restaurant staff. You may find an anti-vac person washing dishes, >preparing food, bussing tables, or seating patrons. I'm not looking for that sort of info, but if I happen to hear about it, I won't go there anymore. It's bad for my appetite. Same way I refuse to watch any movie with Tom Cruise in it. I don't like the thought that even a penny of my money might go to $cientology. > You most certainly don't want to patronize a place that wouldn't screen out >such people! Make sure that any franchise restaurants you like don't >have any stockholders who happen to be anti-vac, just avoid that >franchise entirely. There is a CD-store franchise whose owner supports certain quackery. I refuse to buy there. Unlike you apparently, I have principles and stand up for them. > Equally important, you must check the supply line >of the restaurant (and grocery store) to make sure no anti-vac people >are employed. Oh, and lets not overlook the health inspector. You >don't want to eat at a restaurant inspected by an anti-vac. Perhaps >you should ask yo' mama how to handle eating out in a world of people >who don't all share your beliefs. Andrew, you know that Jimserac is an anti-vac liar. You still want to be buddies with him. That makes you despicable. Bye now. >> >> Is the fact that he likes acupuncture sufficient for you to overlook that major character flaw? >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - : Andrew, can you please answer the question I asked you before: why do : you appear to want to be buddies with Jimserac, who is an anti-vac : liar who'd like to see children suffer from vaccine preventable : diseases? Is the fact that he likes acupuncture sufficient for you to : overlook that major character flaw? The answer is quite simple: the two of them agree that there is no such thing as objective reality. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" A skeptic is someone with no experience, but a lot of unfounded opinion. > In article <36hg34t8mg7cdbr6q14hrl5miof5do5...@4ax.com>, Martin <idontwan...@spam.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The answer is quite simple: the two of them agree that there is no such > thing as objective reality. Nope. We agree with mainstream medicine that acupuncture is great. Heck, it is the stuff that fellowships are made of! > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" :> The answer is quite simple: ?the two of them agree that there is no such :> thing as objective reality. : : Nope. We agree with mainstream medicine that acupuncture is great. : Heck, it is the stuff that fellowships are made of! I take it that you agree with the sponsors of the Harvard CME that there are methodological problems with the studies on the efficacy of acupuncture. I take it also that you agree with what I said long ago that *if* acupuncture works, it is almost certainly *not* because of restoring balance to a person's Qi. Since the Harvard CME talks about the "scientific" basis of acupuncture (as if there is one), and meridians clearly do not exist, while no evidence for the existence of Qi has ever been presented, one has to assume that neither Qi nor meridians are part of that course. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" > :> The answer is quite simple: ?the two of them agree that there is no > such [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I take it That's your problem. > Richard Schultz Off-topic. H Y P O C R I T E : Thanks for passing along the message and : tell Rich I've got my copy of "Alice in Wonderland" : and am reading it right now! I look forward to your discovery of a passage from _Alice in Wonderland_ that has appeared as a .sig quote in any article that I have posted to mha. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." Alice is calling you Richard, and your butt buddy, Martin too. > In article <bf005759-4a61-45a4-b2f0-cb8325457...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ----- > Richard Schultz Hey what does ya want from me dude, I'm slow witted, ya know!!! Besides, Alice in Wonderland is a pretty good story and I figured I might find a clue as to what was causing your mental confusion about Acupuncture. He don't feel bad, there's always Homeopathy you can beat me up about. Citizen Jimserac :> In article <bf005759-4a61-45a4-b2f0-cb8325457...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: :> : Thanks for passing along the message and :> : tell Rich I've got my copy of "Alice in Wonderland" :> : and am reading it right now! :> I look forward to your discovery of a passage from _Alice in Wonderland_ :> that has appeared as a .sig quote in any article that I have posted to mha. : Hey what does ya want from me dude, I'm slow witted, ya know!!! I do know that, believe me. I still am looking forward to your providing proof for at least one of your assertions, or admitting that you have no proof for it. The latter is much more likely, since to my knowledge, I have never used a quote from _Alice in Wonderland_ as a .sig quote for any article that I have posted to m.h.a. : Besides, Alice in Wonderland is a pretty good story I am aware of that -- I own the edition annotated by Martin Gardner. : and I figured I might find a clue as to what was causing your mental : confusion about Acupuncture. Any time that you want to discuss the results reported in any one of the numerous studies that I cited, I will be more than happy to do so. Any time that you show even a passing interest in learning something about the statistical problems in establishing the efficacy of acupuncture, I will be more than happy to enlighten you. Until then, I suggest that you make at least a token effort to stop playing the fool; Big Pharma is eventually going to start seeing you as more of a liability than an asset. : He don't feel bad, there's always Homeopathy you can beat me up about. Indeed, homeopathy is a wonderful example of something that makes no sense a priori. I would say that astrology has more chance of being correct than homeopathy does. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight Translation ..........Richard is too slow to understand, and so he denies. > In article > <27f6866c-ed8f-4261-8d0c-8e0409b3d8ea@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > ----- > "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight : Richard has requested that I tell you to cease and desist making : appeals to authority. Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read the two articles that I cited that indicate that acupuncture is not more effective than a placebo as a means of aiding people to quit smoking? Have you read *any* of the articles discussing the efficacy of acupuncture that I posted back in February, or Peter Moran's explanation of why they are probably to be given greater weight than the studies that you have cited? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "French bread makes very good skis" Richard, go away. "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> repeated the repeated, repeatedly. Then--repeats words form D C Sessions. > ----- > Richard Schultz >It just keeps getting worse and worse for those with blind hatred of >acupuncture. The faux-skeptics, specifically Martin & Richard, have >a fanatical devotion to the ideas that acupuncture doesn't work I said it doesn't go beyond a placebo or distraction when we're considering pain. Effects which are usefull and can be achieved without the mumbo jumbo. And cheaper and safer, and without resoring to unethical behaviour like lying to the patient about things like Chi and acupuncture points. > and is not accepted within mainstream medicine. *I* never said that. In fact, I'm outraged that it seems to be gaining traction within mainstream medicine. It clearly shows that medical training should include a course in critical thinking. It's an absolute disgrace that in a time when the Chinese are dropping this form quackery for stuff that works we're using more of it! >In an angry burst of anti-logic, Richard Schultz equates clinical >training to perform a procedure to be the equivalent of discussing the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >http://www.med.miami.edu/psychiatry/cam/acupuncture.asp#medstu > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > *I* never said that. In fact, I'm outraged that it seems to be gaining > traction within mainstream medicine. I'll take your word on that and will cheerfully retract that statement in regards to you. I'm quite pleased that while don't agree on the value of acupuncture, we both agree that Acupuncture is growing in its acceptance within mainstream medicine. A fellow calling himself "John Doe" was good enough to make a similar admission. I wonder how long Richard will continue to deny the obvious fact that you and I embrace... > It clearly shows that medical > training should include a course in critical thinking. Oh, it does! It also requires training in statistics. That is why they are accepting acupuncture as opposed to homeopathy or that reflexology stuff that Richard keeps harping about. > It's an > absolute disgrace that in a time when the Chinese are dropping this [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >enough to make a similar admission. I wonder how long Richard will >continue to deny the obvious fact that you and I embrace... You have heard that the 'argument ad populum' is a logical fallacy I hope? >> It clearly shows that medical >> training should include a course in critical thinking. > >Oh, it does! It also requires training in statistics. I've talked to many doctors who do not understand *how* we know certain things and *how* we figured things out and *why* we're doing that a certain way. Their education on that subject clearly comes up short. >That is why they are accepting acupuncture as opposed to homeopathy or that >reflexology stuff that Richard keeps harping about. Funny that homeopats and reflexologists (and just about every other quack) keeps claiming their particular woo is growing and gaining more and more acceptance. >> It's an >> absolute disgrace that in a time when the Chinese are dropping this [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - On May 24, 4:32 am, Martin <idontwan...@spam.com> > Funny that homeopats and reflexologists (and just about every other > quack) keeps claiming their particular woo is growing and gaining more > and more acceptance. > >> It's an > >> absolute disgrace that in a time when the Chinese >> are dropping this > >> form quackery for stuff that works we're using more of it! Oh they haven't dropped it at all, they've already integrated it into their healthcare system - Acupuncture Hospitals are right next door (or sometimes in the same building) as the standard medicine hospitals. Some patients that don't show progress in the standard medicine wing are scooted right over to the Traditional Chinese Medicine wing. And some patients who did not improve on the TCM side get scooted over to the standard wing. And you know what? The big pharma does not dominate the chinese government (not yet anyway, give them time) so they are actually doing research on anti-cancer activity in traditional Chinese herbs and other substances instead of wasting more billions on stronger but less deadly chemotherapy and radiation. So you can boo hoo about the woo but its continued growth is something you'll just have to rue. Citizen Jimserac > >> >In an angry burst of anti-logic, Richard Schultz equates clinical > >> >training to perform a procedure to be the equivalent of discussing the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > >> - Show quoted text - >On May 24, 4:32 am, Martin <idontwan...@spam.com> >> Funny that homeopats and reflexologists (and just about every other [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >(or sometimes in the same building) as the >standard medicine hospitals. Oh yes, that is correct. According to the Chinese doctors, that's where they send the winers. People who are actually not sick but insist on getting treatment. The nice acupuncturist will give them the attention they crave while not causing too much damage. Please note they never send anyone with a real disease over there. > Some patients >that don't show progress in the standard [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >but its continued growth is something >you'll just have to rue. This continued growth has been predicted about as often as the Second Coming of Big J., and just as accurate. >Citizen Jimserac >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> >> - Show quoted text - > On Sat, 24 May 2008 02:22:31 -0700 (PDT), Citizen Jimserac > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > This continued growth has been predicted about as often as the Second > Coming of Big J., and just as accurate. Yeah! Now you've got it! Psychosomatic problems like sciatica, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, Bell's Palsy, lower back pain (lot's of people imagine they have this one!), sprained ankles, aplastic anemia... You're sharp as a tack! I can see there's no fooling you! And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to wrap up some more dead fish. I'm using some pages torn out of the Flexner report... hope you don't mind. Citizen Jimserac >> On Sat, 24 May 2008 02:22:31 -0700 (PDT), Citizen Jimserac >> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac Go man go! >>On May 24, 4:32 am, Martin <idontwan...@spam.com> >>> Funny that homeopats and reflexologists (and just about every other [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > attention they crave while not causing too much damage. Please note > they never send anyone with a real disease over there. Martin Rady you are full of it. Andy, got a treatment for that? >> Some patients >>that don't show progress in the standard [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > This continued growth has been predicted about as often as the Second > Coming of Big J., and just as accurate. This coming from an atheist.... The current growth is a FACT. Deal with it and settle down before you blow a gasket... >>Citizen Jimserac >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>> >> - Show quoted text - : Oh yes, that is correct. According to the Chinese doctors, that's : where they send the winers. People who are actually not sick but : insist on getting treatment. The nice acupuncturist will give them the : attention they crave while not causing too much damage. Please note : they never send anyone with a real disease over there. You'll also note that the examples of acupuncture training within mainstream medicine that Mr. Kingoff keeps bringing tend not to claim that acupuncture actually cures anything (unlike Mr. Kingoff). ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- The gardener plants an evergreen whilst trampling on a flower. . . > On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:51:58 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > quack) keeps claiming their particular woo is growing and gaining more > and more acceptance. They, like Richard Schultz, can say anything they want to. I, on the other hand, have proven my assertion. After all, is their any accreditted US medical school (or in the UK) that has a fellowship in reflexology? How 'bout homeopathy? Nope! Acupuncture is being performed by no less than 40 MD's in the US Airforce. MD's are being trained to perform acupuncture at Harvard, Stanford, and many other major medical universities. Acupuncture has the NIH's & WHO's seal of approval. Why is acupuncture held in such high regard by mainstream medicine? Simple, acupuncture delivers the goods. Whether in ancient China or in modern US & UK hospitials, it thrives. > >> It's an > >> absolute disgrace that in a time when the Chinese are dropping this [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - : Why is acupuncture held in such high regard by mainstream medicine? : Simple, acupuncture delivers the goods. Have you read the original article in which the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study were reported? Have you read the two articles that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo as a means for treating people for their addiction to smoking? Have you read *any* of the articles that I cited back in February that provided evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" Richard, one can find "studies & articles" to support anything. The proof is IN the pudding. You really need to get out and get some real life experience. >Richard, one can find "studies & articles" to support anything. The proof is >IN the pudding. You really need to get out and get some real life >experience. You are so right. So, when are going to get some experience in jumping from tall buildings to personally experience the effects of that? >>Richard, one can find "studies & articles" to support anything. The proof >>is >>IN the pudding. You really need to get out and get some real life >>experience. > > You are so right. Finally. Rich, I don't know how to tell you this nicely but it's a cold hard fact and someone has to do it - you lost the match and got knocked out in the 6th round by One True Zhen's rather convincing arguments. You probably don't want to show your face in this thread any more and endure any more embarassment! Follow news' advice and get out of the damn classroom. Check out some of those cute chicks at the local kibbuz and start reading a copy of Fundamentals of Chinese Medicine! Even academics can get it all wrong some times, look at the famous astronomer Simon Newcomb who said, a few years before the Wright brothers flights, that it was theoretically impossible for man to fly and that man would never fly. Citizen Jimserac : Rich, I don't know how to tell you this nicely but it's a cold hard fact and : someone has to do it - you lost the match and got knocked out in the : 6th round by One True Zhen's rather convincing arguments. Considering that he has yet to *acknowledge*, let alone respond to, any of the literature citations that I cited, I fail to see what kind of convincing argument he may have put together. What neither of you seem to realize is that the "growing acceptance" of acupuncture is completely independent of whether it actually works or not; and that the claims that Mr. Kingoff has made for and about acupuncture tend either not to be made or to be seriously downplayed in the examples that he has brought. Or do you now agree with the organziers of the Harvard CME that there are methodological problems with the studies of acupuncture? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "I have always observed that when people are interrupted in the performance of some egregious stupidity their feelings are hurt." -- Anthony Trollope, _Ayala's Angel_ > Rich, I don't know how to tell you this > nicely but it's a cold hard fact and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > face in this thread any more and endure > any more embarassment! Embararassment is much of a deterent to Richard. Did you read his explanation of the statement he made about it being well known that Acupuncture does not work? Oh, wow! If he had a shred of decency or were capable of shame, he _couldn't_ posted that garbage. I mean, what kind of guy says he's never said that acupuncture doesn't work, has said it doesn't work, says his statement declaring that it doesn't work means anything but that it doesn't work, and continues to argue that it has never worked. His other lies include making stupid arguments, basing them on a web citation he made, and declaring that it _is_ my citation and argument. Embarassed? I'm sure he's as proud of that as anything he's done in this life. > Follow news' advice and get out of the > damn classroom. Check out some of those [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac : Embararassment is much of a deterent to Richard. Did you read his : explanation of the statement he made about it being well known that : Acupuncture does not work? You mean the part where I was responding to a net.idiot with an off-the-cuff sarcastic comment? What part of that explanation was too difficult for you to understand? Or do you now claim psychic powers and the ability to tell me what I was thinking when I posted something? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "I love people. But I don't suffer fools gladly." -- Deborah Lipstadt > In article <277009e4-25a1-4895-8fdf-7a674a4fa...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sarcastic comment? What part of that explanation was too difficult for > you to understand? The part where you claim that saying that it is well known that acupuncture doesn't work meaning something other than you believe that acupuncture doesn't work. Or do you now claim psychic powers and the ability to > tell me what I was thinking when I posted something? You mean you've outright stated that acupuncture doesn't work, keep on saying it but just don't meant it? Well, isn't that special? > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "I love people. But I don't suffer fools gladly." > -- Deborah Lipstadt :> In article <277009e4-25a1-4895-8fdf-7a674a4fa...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: :> : Embararassment is much of a deterent to Richard. ?Did you read his :> : explanation of the statement he made about it being well known that :> : Acupuncture does not work? ? :> You mean the part where I was responding to a net.idiot with an off-the-cuff :> sarcastic comment? What part of that explanation was too difficult for :> you to understand? : The part where you claim that saying that it is well known that : acupuncture doesn't work meaning something other than you believe that : acupuncture doesn't work. I suggest that you look up the word "sarcasm" in the dictionary. You will discover a new and exciting concept: that a person can say something that he does not believe to be true and still not be lying (in the case where he does not expect his comment to be taken seriously). Then you should look up the word "context." If you have a few spare moments, you should read _The Phantom Tollbooth_, in which there is an amusing scene in which one of the monsters chasing the hero is discovered to be out of Context. : Or do you now claim psychic powers and the ability to :> tell me what I was thinking when I posted something? : : You mean you've outright stated that acupuncture doesn't work, keep on : saying it but just don't meant it? Well, isn't that special? I do *not* "keep on saying it" -- another lie from Mr. Kingoff. What I keep on saying is that acupuncture has not been demonstrated to work better than a placebo. That is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't work. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" > In article <86d1e354-4ca4-4bd0-939e-07f7a2965...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > :> In article <277009e4-25a1-4895-8fdf-7a674a4fa...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > keep on saying is that acupuncture has not been demonstrated to work better > than a placebo. That is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't work. Sure you have. You've said that in response to the many studies where it has not only surpassed placebo, but conventional medicine as well. The back pain studies are a perfect example of this. Even where the studies show those results you deny that it is evidence of efficacy. Are you going to deny that you have, in fact, done this? > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your > truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" : Sure you have. You've said that in response to the many studies where : it has not only surpassed placebo, but conventional medicine as well. : The back pain studies are a perfect example of this. Even where the : studies show those results you deny that it is evidence of efficacy. : Are you going to deny that you have, in fact, done this? Any time that you want to have a serious discussion of the statistical problem involved, I am more than happy to have such a discussion. You obviously do not want to understand that problem, because if you did, you would understand why it is possible to question an apparently positive result -- as Peter Moran has already taken the trouble to explain to you. A poorly designed study that produces a positive result is of no value. (Nor, of course, is a poorly designed study that produces a negative result.) In the meantime, Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read *any* of the citations that I listed in February 2008? Have you read either of the articles that I cited that presented evidence that acupuncture is no better than a placebo as a means of treating addiction to smoking? <crickets chirping> ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" > In article > <78ae8af7-8b61-4136-96c3-8949ef3e30a1@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > : studies show those results you deny that it is evidence of efficacy. > : Are you going to deny that you have, in fact, done this? OOPPSSS. Richey baby cannot answer. > ----- > Richard Schultz "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> kepps repeating the same old lie: > What I keep on saying is that acupuncture has not been demonstrated to > work better > than a placebo. Blatant proven lie. : "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> kepps repeating the same old : lie: :> What I keep on saying is that acupuncture has not been demonstrated to :> work better than a placebo. : Blatant proven lie. Perhaps you would care to give a detailed analysis of any one of the studies that I have cited in which acupuncture fails to perform better than a placebo, explaining why the results of the study are incorrect. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > : "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> keeps repeating the same old > : lie: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > studies that I have cited in which acupuncture fails to perform better > than a placebo, explaining why the results of the study are incorrect. Give it up thick headed. Like I said blatant lie. http://www.naturalnews.com/z020939.html Acupuncture proven to successfully treat arthritis pain in German study Acupuncture proven effective at treating post-operative nausea; but modern medicine marginalizes true potential of acupuncture http://www.naturalnews.com/001566.html http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31364 Acupuncture Proven to Increase Chances of Getting Pregnant http://www.romow.com/health-blog/benefits-of-acupuncture-treatment/ http://www.pr.com/press-release/60559 Acupuncture Weight Loss with AcuAids Proven Effective http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/02064/cures.html > ----- > Richard Schultz :> Perhaps you would care to give a detailed analysis of any one of the :> studies that I have cited in which acupuncture fails to perform better :> than a placebo, explaining why the results of the study are incorrect. : : Give it up thick headed. : Like I said blatant lie. Have you actually read any of the articles that I cited? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ >> : "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> keeps repeating the same >> old [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Acupuncture proven to successfully treat arthritis pain in German study from this source ...."the study did nave SOME issues that may nullify the results...etc etc"" ie..not a scientific study...perhaps Kevin Trudeau wrote it...remember...anyone can write anything...doesn't make it the truth > Acupuncture proven effective at treating post-operative nausea; but modern > medicine marginalizes true potential of acupuncture [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> ----- >> Richard Schultz > "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> kepps repeating the same old > lie: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Blatant proven lie. am I the only one who laughs when Janster jumps into a discussion that requires real upper division statistical and trouble shooting knowledge?? obviously...tho she may have been able to run a daycare center...beyond that level...she is a dunce ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz perfect response to Janster when she has not educated response >>> On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > You have heard that the 'argument ad populum' is a logical fallacy I > hope? ZZzz. >>> It clearly shows that medical >>> training should include a course in critical thinking. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > quack) keeps claiming their particular woo is growing and gaining more > and more acceptance. What's a homeopat?? >>> It's an >>> absolute disgrace that in a time when the Chinese are dropping this [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>> >>> - Show quoted text - : I'm quite pleased that while don't agree on the value of acupuncture, : we both agree that Acupuncture is growing in its acceptance within : mainstream medicine. A fellow calling himself "John Doe" was good : enough to make a similar admission. I wonder how long Richard will : continue to deny the obvious fact that you and I embrace... You have succeeded in showing that acupuncture as a treatment is accepted by far more people within mainstream medicine than I would have thought possible. You have not succeeded in showing that acupuncture is more effective than a placebo, however. :> It clearly shows that medical :> training should include a course in critical thinking. : : Oh, it does! It also requires training in statistics. That is why : they are accepting acupuncture as opposed to homeopathy or that : reflexology stuff that Richard keeps harping about. You have yet to show *any* ability to think critically when the subject is acupuncture. If you did, you would be able to explain to me why the numerous studies that I have cited are flawed, and you would be able to answer my question about whether you have read the original article in which the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study were reported. You might also be able to explain your irrational objection to even *learning* about reflexology. Since reflexology appears to be based on the same principles on which acupuncture is based, I would have thought that you would be most interested in learning about it as an adjunct or complement to acupuncture. Or to put it another way: reflexology is based on the same principles as acupuncture (you may not know this, but you can either take it for me or easily confirm it by a perusal of the literature on reflexology that is readily available to you). If reflexology does not work, why should acupuncture? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." Richard, you need to get out of your constipated university. See the world. Have some real life experience. Learn something useful. Become a nice person. Learn that almost all real knowledge is not learned in classrooms, or labs. Learn that you are not the be all end all. Take a short vacation and learn some humility. And get some Acupuncture treatments. > Richard, you need to get out of your constipated university. See the world. > Have some real life experience. Learn something useful. Become a nice > person. Learn that almost all real knowledge is not learned in classrooms, > or labs. Learn that you are not the be all end all. Take a short vacation > and learn some humility. And get some Acupuncture treatments. It is possible (likely?) that he could get acupuncture _at_ his university. If not, he can certainly get at a several fine universities such as Harvard, Stanford, University of Miami, Duke, UNC, et al. While acupuncture is an excellent treatment for constipation, I doubt that is Richard's major malfunction. : It is possible (likely?) that he could get acupuncture _at_ his : university. If not, he can certainly get at a several fine : universities such as Harvard, Stanford, University of Miami, Duke, : UNC, et al. While acupuncture is an excellent treatment for : constipation, I doubt that is Richard's major malfunction. I see that you are back to your fixation with elimination. I still don't understand why you don't just express it in terms that more accurately describe what you are really thinking. After all, that mode of expression worked just fine for Martin Luther. The Swami predicts: Mr. Kingoff will not respond to what follows, and if he responds to this post at all, he will delete it without indicating that he has done so. But since you brought the subject up, does this count as an "excellent treatment"? "Body acupuncture: effect on colonic function in chronic constipation" Klauser, A.G.; Rubach, A.; Bertsche, O.; Mueller-Lissner, S.A. Z. Gastroenterology 31 (1993) 605-8. Acupuncture has been claimed to be an efficacious treatment for chronic constipation, though there are no studies to prove this. We therefore investigated the effect of body acupuncture on stool frequency and colonic transit time of radiopaque markers in 8 constipated patients (58 +/- 6 years, 3 female; vigorous straining necessary to open bowels without the use of laxatives for more than one year, total colonic marker transit > 60 h) in a control period and during a three weeks treatment period with six sessions. Acupuncture was performed as body acupuncture with electric needles (10 Hz, current titrated to individual threshold, 25 min each session) on acupuncture points Di4 [He Gu], Ma25 [Tian Shu], Le3 [Yuan], and B125 [Da Chang Yu]). Two patients dropped out during acupuncture because symptoms of constipation worsened. In the other 6 patients, stool frequencies and colonic transit times were not significantly different during control and acupuncture period (0.38 +/- 0.09 vs. 0.40 +/- 0.14 defecations per day +/- s.e.m., 95% confidence interval for the difference control minus acupuncture [-0.34; 0.30], and 97 +/- 17 vs. 108 +/- 24h, 95% Cl [-50; 27]). Segmental transit times for right and left hemicolon, and rectosigmoid colon did not differ significantly either. In conclusion, acupuncture as performed in this study does not influence objective parameters of colonic function to a clinically relevant degree. Let's repeat that last sentence again: "In conclusion, acupuncture as performed in this study does *not* influence objective parameters of colonic function to a clinically relevant degree." ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" : The Swami predicts: Mr. Kingoff will not respond to what follows, and : if he responds to this post at all, he will delete it without indicating : that he has done so. I admit that it's normally considered bad form to follow up to one's own posts, but I have to point out that the Swami's prediction was, as usual, correct -- which should serve as a warning to anyone who continues to doubt my mystical powers. But at least it will give me another citation to add to the list of ones that Mr. Kingoff refuses to acknowledge. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" "Richard Schultz" Here ya go Richard, an accurate expression. IMHO Richard is full of partially digested material. Also known as chronic constipation of both the bowels and the head. > In article <ced5b797-c679-4001-8dc9-baa31daaa...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your > truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" Er... Excuse me for pointing this out but are you RICHARD SCHULTZ, the person who REFUSES to discuss structure of water with Citizen Jimserac because Citizen Jimserac's chemistry knowledge is woefully incomplete (it's true, its been so long since that dumbell Citizen Jimserac took a chemistry course there are probably a few new elements in the periodic table!)??? Then by what right do YOU discuss Acupuncture, a field in which YOUR knowledge is WOEFULLY INADEQUATE with One True Zhen. Why should we listen to ANY of YOUR opinions on Acupuncture, a field in which you appear to know VIRTUALLY NOTHING?? Maybe it time YOU did some reading and self-educating before your posts are worthy of consideration! See Rich? It works both ways. Can't have a double standard!!! No no no!!! Not allowed. Citizen Jimserac : Er... Excuse me for pointing this out but : are you RICHARD SCHULTZ, the person who REFUSES : to discuss structure of water with Citizen Jimserac This is a lie. You ignored my discussions of the structure of water, but that doesn't mean that I refused to discuss it. : because Citizen Jimserac's chemistry knowledge : is woefully incomplete (it's true, its been : so long since that dumbell Citizen Jimserac : took a chemistry course there are probably : a few new elements in the periodic table!)??? Your chemistry knowledge is incomplete at the level of your apparently not knowing what atoms and molecules are, or the difference between a solid and a liquid, or what happens when a solution is diluted. : Then by what right do YOU discuss Acupuncture, a field in which YOUR : knowledge is WOEFULLY INADEQUATE with One True Zhen. First of all, I am a GENUINE SCIENTIST [tm], unlike you and Mr. Kingoff. I am not discussing acupuncture in the sense of telling him which meridians and acupuncture points are important for which diseases. I am pointing out that there seems to be a correlation between how carefully a study of acupuncture was done and the results obtained -- namely, the more carefully the study was done, the less dramatic the results. When I ask Mr. Kingoff to give a more plausible explanation for the negative results (he is, as you say, the expert), he refuses even to acknolwedge the existence of the negative results. And when obvious experimental flaws in the experiments that gave positive results are pointed out to him, he engages in the most interesting logical fallacies in order to demonstrate that the results are valid anyway. For example, he cited a study in which real acupuncture and sham acupuncture did not give significantly different results as evidence that acupuncture works. One does not have to be an expert in acupuncture to know that one cannot cite the results of a study as supporting a correlation that it was not designed to test. You might also check out who it was who first cited the 2004 osteoarthritis study. Hint: it wasn't me. Then you might read the article (it's available online), which Mr. Kingoff is afraid to do. When you do read the article, you will discover that the actual results are not nearly as spectacular as the press release implies. : Why should we listen to ANY of YOUR opinions on Acupuncture, : a field in which you appear to know VIRTUALLY NOTHING?? I do know that web sites that talk about Qi seem to define it differently than Mr. Kingoff does, and when the differences are pointed out to him, he refuses to discuss them. I do know that I posted a reference to an article about the history of the belief in "meridians" and that he refused to discuss that. But that's really beside the point. One need not be an expert in acupuncture to be able to see that an experimental design is flawed. I have offered to discuss with you and with Mr. Kingoff in more detail the statistical problems with acupuncture studies that Dr. Moran hinted at -- and neither of you, not too surprisingly, are interested. : See Rich? It works both ways. Can't have a double : standard!!! No no no!!! Not allowed. The one with a double standard is you, sir. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Compared with Man, we have to admit that the insect does not display what we can describe as intelligence. But don't feel too proud about that, because where there is no intelligence, there is also no stupidity." > In article > <59e660a6-c865-47b5-a748-309f82bc1426@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University Richard, please tell us how you really feel about the fact that Alternative Medicine, including Acupunture, is becoming so much more popular? Don't be shy now, tell us how you reeeeally feel about this turn of events after so many years of drug em / cut em "medicine"> > > In article > > <59e660a6-c865-47b5-a748-309f82bc1.. |
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