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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008Acupuncture Proven Studies
http://www.naturalnews.com/z020939.html Acupuncture proven to successfully treat arthritis pain in German study Acupuncture proven effective at treating post-operative nausea; but modern medicine marginalizes true potential of acupuncture http://www.naturalnews.com/001566.html http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31364 Acupuncture Proven to Increase Chances of Getting Pregnant http://www.romow.com/health-blog/benefits-of-acupuncture-treatment/ http://www.pr.com/press-release/60559 Acupuncture Weight Loss with AcuAids Proven Effective http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/02064/cures.html Any time that you want to post your explanation for the failures of the numerous studies that I cited, rather than blank posts, I'll be happy to see it. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ POSTING IGNORED. Citizen Jimserac : POSTING IGNORED. Remind me why this isn't evidence that when faced with evidence that acupuncture proves no more effective than a placebo, its advocates stick their fingers in their ears and shout "I can't hear you." ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "French bread makes very good skis" "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> > Citizen Jimserac <Jimserac@gmail.com> wrote: > POSTING IGNORED. > Any time that you want to post your explanation for the failures of the > numerous studies that I cited, rather than blank posts, I'll be happy > to see it. Poor Richey baby . This thread is *proven* studies. Cheer up. http://www.naturalnews.com/z020939.html > Acupuncture proven to successfully treat arthritis pain in German study > > Acupuncture proven effective at treating post-operative nausea; but modern > medicine marginalizes true potential of acupuncture http://www.naturalnews.com/001566.html http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31364 > Acupuncture Proven to Increase Chances of Getting Pregnant http://www.romow.com/health-blog/benefits-of-acupuncture-treatment/ http://www.pr.com/press-release/60559 > Acupuncture Weight Loss with AcuAids Proven Effective http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/02064/cures.html > ----- > Richard Schultz :> Any time that you want to post your explanation for the failures of the :> numerous studies that I cited, rather than blank posts, I'll be happy :> to see it. : Poor Richey baby . This thread is *proven* studies. And I am asking you for a response to the studies that "prove" that acupuncture does not work any better than a placebo. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ > In article <Oa6dnQ-96YFcYKnVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdn...@comcast.com>, JanDrew <JanDre...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ----- POSTING IGNORED. Citizen Jimserac > > In article <Oa6dnQ-96YFcYKnVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdn...@comcast.com>, JanDrew <JanDre...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac IOW, you cannot provide the requested proof. You just admitted that. Cue Jimmy to weasel. On May 22, 1:42 pm, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > On May 22, 3:35 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac IOW, No, that are YOUR other words, Mark S Probert, Merick, NY. Proven liar and harasser. Now--deal with the proven studies rather than make a continued fool of yourself AND proving once again, you do not read Torah everday. :> And I am asking you for a response to the studies that "prove" that :> acupuncturedoes not work any better than a placebo. : POSTING IGNORED. Further evidence that fans of "alternative" medicine react to evidence that their pet beliefs are untrue by sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "I can't hear you!" ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > :> Any time that you want to post your explanation for the failures of the > :> numerous studies that I cited, rather than blank posts, I'll be happy [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And I am asking you for a response to the studies that "prove" that > acupuncture does not work any better than a placebo. Ok. Read them, they are proven. You can stop with ye ole placebo excuse. > ----- > Richard Schultz :> And I am asking you for a response to the studies that "prove" that :> acupuncture does not work any better than a placebo. : Ok. Read them, they are proven. Then you agree that acupuncture is not effective. : You can stop with ye ole placebo excuse. Do you even know what a placebo is? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ > In article <_9OdnW5Ouo8l2KvVnZ2dnUVZ_sDin...@comcast.com>, JanDrew <JanDre...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Do you even know what a placebo is? Ban on responses to Richard temporarily lifted. Yes, a placebo is a convenient excuse used by those who wish to deny the efficacy of some alternative systems of medicine. It is a subjective measure, outside the realm of statistics and scientifically worthless. If you disagree, please post explicit and exact reasoning, or at the very least some links. Attempts to assert that you know the answer or that someone else does not have a clue will promptly be met with a posting ignored message. Here is YOUR change to shine Richard and prove that you have something to contribute. Go for it! Citizen Jimserac : Yes, a placebo is a convenient excuse used by those who wish to deny : the efficacy of some alternative systems of medicine. In other words, you don't know what a placebo is either. : It is a subjective measure, outside the realm of statistics and : scientifically worthless. Since you do not understand (and are not interested in learning about) statistics, your claim is "scientifically worthless." In fact, the placebo effect is something that *can* be measured statistically. Why you think that statistics cannot be applied to subjective phenomena is beyond me. Do you believe that if I were to take a survey of people asking them whether they prefer Rothko or Pollock, I could not do a statistical analysis of their responses? : If you disagree, please post explicit and exact reasoning, or at the : very least some links. Attempts to assert that you know the answer or that : someone else does not have a clue will promptly be met with : a posting ignored message. http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html http://skepdic.com/placebo.html http://tinyurl.com/59hg8y http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/mdd/99/aug/mysterious.html That should be enough for starters. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Any other education would have required a serious effort, but no one took Harvard College seriously." > In article <ec13b632-3a9e-4bf6-9d1a-a037a249a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > That should be enough for starters. Thanks, I will read these links with interest. In the meantime, do others have comments on this? Citizen Jimserac >> In article >> <ec13b632-3a9e-4bf6-9d1a-a037a249a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > In the meantime, do others have comments on this? yes...firstly...many of us "evil" people do believe accupuncture has as effacious effect whether it is less than placebo Idon't know another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than what statistics even means > Citizen Jimserac >>> In article >>> <ec13b632-3a9e-4bf6-9d1a-a037a249a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than >what statistics even means I don't agree. Jan Drew can define proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_%28alcohol%29 At least, that is what I conclude from some of her posts. >> Citizen Jimserac "Martin Rady" > >> In article > >> <ec13b632-3a9e-4bf6-9d1a-a037a249a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > yes...firstly...many of us "evil" people do believe accupuncture has as > effacious effect Did you know that Stanford has a fellowship in Acupuncture for anesthesiologists? http://med.stanford.edu/anesthesia/education/clinical_fellowship.html > whether it is less than placebo Idon't know > another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> >> In article >> >> <ec13b632-3a9e-4bf6-9d1a-a037a249a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >http://med.stanford.edu/anesthesia/education/clinical_fellowship.html Is that when they combine anesthesia with acupuncture and then praise the acupuncture for the results? >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Is that when they combine anesthesia withacupunctureand then praise > theacupuncturefor the results? Nope. > >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know > >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > >Nope. My momma has told that me when people say things like you're saying, just tell them they're right. So, you're right. Really. >> >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know >> >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > On Sat, 24 May 2008 06:47:52 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > My momma has told that me when people say things like you're saying, > just tell them they're right. So, you're right. Really. Hey, Martin! You don't have to go running to yo' momma everytime you need edification. In this case, you can go to these MD's: Principal Faculty: Emily Ratner, M.D., Brenda Golianu, M.D., Sam LeBaron, M.D., Alice Edler, M.D.(education and statistics), Greg Hammer, M.D. (research) > >> >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know > >> >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >Alice Edler, M.D.(education and statistics), Greg Hammer, M.D. >(research) I already told you you're right. You want to hear it again? Andrew, you're right. Really. >> >> >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know >> >> >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Momma's boy Martin, cut. > On Sat, 24 May 2008 13:24:54 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > I already told you you're right. You want to hear it again? Andrew, > you're right. Really. I just want _you_ to hear how wrong you are. Sure, you're more comfortable hiding from the truth, but I think you might be able to handle the truth. Why don't you email any of Stanford's Acupuncture Anethesiology fellowship's faculty members and have them 'splain it to you? I'm sure they'll make an effort to avoid big words and talk slowly for you. Afterward, you can tell them what they are just plain wrong because acupuncture doesn't work. Sure, they'll be laughing _at_ you, but its probably better than how must people receive you. > >> >> >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know > >> >> >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Show quoted text - : I just want _you_ to hear how wrong you are. Sure, you're more : comfortable hiding from the truth, but I think you might be able to : handle the truth. From your refusal to ackowledge the existence of studies that yield results that you don't like, or even to read an article that you have touted as supporting your claims because there is a chance that the article may not be quite as positive as the press release was, I would say that it is you who have a great deal of difficulty handling the truth. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "A condemned man does not request egg salad for his last meal. He also doesn't order Alka-Seltzer." Kehlog Ahlbran, _The Profit_ > In article <8ec100d0-5443-4c41-96ab-9e9ca5183...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > article may not be quite as positive as the press release was, I would > say that it is you who have a great deal of difficulty handling the truth. Absolute nonsense, Richard. I handled and delivered a lot of truth to you and Martin. It just seems that Martin, while highly flawed, is able to accept the fact of the mainstream acceptance of acupuncture. You, on the other hand, keep denying it and believe you can make it go away by making a false argument. Why don't you contact Harvard, Stanford, Duke, University of Miami, et al, and straighten them out? After all, you believe that a simple invocation of Occam's razor is sufficient argument against acupuncture. (Funny, the most famous argument for atheism is being used by a person who believes that the supreme being doesn't want him to post to usenet on the sabbath.) Let the faculty of those universities know that you have declared that they cannot handle the truth. Let them know that they are wasting time, money, and squandering the reputation of their university by using acupuncture. After all, shouldn't you try to remove a stumbling block from the path of the blind or at least warn them about it? Come on, time & resources are wasting! What about the patients, what about children that are patients? How can you stand idly by as acupuncture thrives in those medical universities, the US Airforce, and now the Marines? Naaah, what you'll do is confine to MHA your assertion that acupuncture does not and never has worked. Meanwhile mainstream medicine continues to bask in its thousands of years of wholesome goodness & efficacy. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > doesn't order Alka-Seltzer." > Kehlog Ahlbran, _The Profit_ :> From your refusal to ackowledge the existence of studies that yield :> results that you don't like, or even to read an article that you have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : You, on the other hand, keep denying it and believe you can make it go : away by making a false argument. Every time I ask you the following questions, you delete them without answering them or even acknowledging that they were asked: Have you read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? Have you read *any* of the articles that I cited in February? Have you read either of the articles that I cited that provide evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo as a treatment for addiction to smoking? *If* the articles that I cited are correct, then the argument that acupuncture is no better than a placebo is not false. Since you refuse even to acknowledge the existence of these sources, I would say that you cannot judge whether my argument is false or not. : Why don't you contact Harvard, Stanford, Duke, University of Miami, et : al, and straighten them out? I have already written a letter to the dean of the Harvard Medical School. If and when I get a response, I will let you know. I sent an email to the person listed as the contact person for the CME course at HMS. Not too surprisingly, I did not receive a response. : Naaah, what you'll do is confine to MHA your assertion that : acupuncture does not and never has worked. I take it that you now agree that you are a liar. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" > In article <eadcb601-45c6-422b-adbe-738f79b73...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > I take it that you now agree that you are a liar. Nope. As with your assertion that an MD was performing reflexology at the University of Maryland, I was mistaken. I'm actually happy that you proved me wrong by acting on your stated beliefs. Good for you! I do think you ought to be more patient in waiting for your reply. While I don't know when you wrote them, the Harvard thread was only started this May 20th. I eagerly await their reply, but I caution you not expect them to agree with you and cancel the program. Ditto for Stanford, Duke, the US Airforce, et al. Sure, you might succeed, but it is more likely that your windmill tilting will go down as windmill tilting. Tell Sancho (Martin) he's going on a long journey! > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your > truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" : Nope. As with your assertion that an MD was performing reflexology at : the University of Maryland, I was mistaken. I'm actually happy that : you proved me wrong by acting on your stated beliefs. Good for you! We have already determined that in Andrew-speak, there is no such thing as a "mistake" or a "change of mind." There is the truth, and there are lies in your parlance -- since you made a statement that was manifestly untrue, it must have been a lie. Unless, of course, you are now willing to concede that what you have been calling lies have either been mistakes, changes of mind, or misinterpretations on your part of what I wrote. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > In article <770cd8fa-158b-4834-9d46-6a84c97ab...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We have already determined that in Andrew-speak, there is no such thing > as a "mistake" or a "change of mind." Since "we" means you and Martin, I'm not surprised that you've gotten this wrong, too. How I define lying does not change the well documented fact that you've lied repeatedly. Sadly, you feel compelled to show instead of remorse. There is the truth, and there are > lies in your parlance -- since you made a statement that was manifestly > untrue, it must have been a lie. Unless, of course, you are now willing > to concede that what you have been calling lies have either been mistakes, > changes of mind, or misinterpretations on your part of what I wrote. You wrote that you've never said that acupuncture does not work. You did exactly that, you wrote that acupuncture does not work. You constantly argue that acupuncture does not work. Yet, you claim that when you wrote that acupuncture does not work that you were *not* saying that acupuncture does not work. That wasn't a mistake, Richard. No, you went out of your way to claim that you were an open- minded skeptic who believe that it was simply not proven. You even got huffy when I challenged your claims of being netural. Well, you got caught in an outright lie. What is sad is that you continue to say that acupuncture doesn't work BUT that when you said that in 2003, you meant something different. Beyond that you've repeatedly lied about what I have said and have even go so far as attribute your own citations and arguments to me. That wasn't a mistake, you did it repeatedly and with clear intent. The google archive proves it. Sure, you frequently make completely false statements which are not lies. I won't deny that and you won't stop doing it. I'm more than happy to call you "wrong" on those counts. I felt your tale about an MD practicing reflexology was simply wishful thinking on your part. Sure, it was false, but I know that fanactics often confabulate things. I didn't call you a liar on that count, I just brought you a reality check and you cashed it. Good for you! But, while you may lie without remorse, you will not lie with impunity. You'll just have to accept that posting on a public, archived forum doesn't afford you that luxury. Learn to live with that. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" : Since "we" means you and Martin, I'm not surprised that you've gotten : this wrong, too. How I define lying does not change the well : documented fact that you've lied repeatedly. Sadly, you feel : compelled to show instead of remorse. The only "lies" that you have documented are what we might call <lie/K>'s, that is, things that are "lies" in Andrew Kingoff's parallel universe according to his peculiar and completely non-standard use of what to the rest of us looks like the English language. : There is the truth, and there are :> lies in your parlance -- since you made a statement that was manifestly :> untrue, it must have been a lie. ?Unless, of course, you are now willing :> to concede that what you have been calling lies have either been mistakes, :> changes of mind, or misinterpretations on your part of what I wrote. : You wrote that you've never said that acupuncture does not work. You : did exactly that, you wrote that acupuncture does not work. What part of "sarcasm" and "context" do you fail to understand? Why have you not taken my advice and looked up those two words in the dictionary so that there would be at least a small chance that you might understand what the words mean? : You constantly argue that acupuncture does not work. This is a lie. What I constantly argue is (a) acupuncture has never been shown to work better than a placebo and (b) *if* acupuncture *is* shown to work, the mechanism of action will almost certainly *not* be related to Qi or meridians. I really fail to understand what part of that is too difficult for you to grasp. The only part I understand is that when the subject of discussion is acupuncture, you completely lose any ability to talk or think rationally. : Yet, you claim that : when you wrote that acupuncture does not work that you were *not* : saying that acupuncture does not work. That wasn't a mistake, : Richard. No, you went out of your way to claim that you were an open- : minded skeptic who believe that it was simply not proven. You even : got huffy when I challenged your claims of being netural. If I *constantly* argue that acupuncture does not work, you should easily be able to find multiple examples of my having made such an argument. That you cannot indicates that you are lying when you make that claim. : Well, you got caught in an outright lie. What is sad is that you : continue to say that acupuncture doesn't work BUT that when you said : that in 2003, you meant something different. Why don't you cite some *other* post of mine made at some time during the last five years in which I said that acupuncture doesn't work? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- The gardener plants an evergreen whilst trampling on a flower. . . "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack. >Well, you got caught in an outright lie. You have been caught in many. Repeating them. http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1930.htm > ----- > Richard Schultz >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> On Sat, 24 May 2008 06:47:52 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >because acupuncture doesn't work. Sure, they'll be laughing _at_ you, >but its probably better than how must people receive you. You're absolutely right, again! >> >> >> >> whether it is less than placebo Idon't know >> >> >> >> another comment is obviously Jan Drew can barely define "proof" less than [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - The Hawk Squawked > In article > <ec13b632-3a9e-4bf6-9d1a-a037a249a96c@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > On May 23, 4:36 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >> In article <_9OdnW5Ouo8l2KvVnZ2dnUVZ_sDin...@comcast.com>, JanDrew [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac > In other words, Wrong. Not your other words. HIS words. Now, back to the subject. you don't know what a placebo is either. > : It is a subjective measure, outside the realm of statistics and > : scientifically worthless. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html FDA and Gov. LOL! > http://skepdic.com/ Sorry, no spam allowed here. > http://tinyurl.com/ More spam deleted. > http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/mdd/99/aug/mysterious.html A freelance writer based in Narberth, PA, just outside Philadelphia. I write and edit news articles, review articles, conference proceedings, and patient/physician education materials for a variety of clients and publications ranging from consumer print media to physician and patient organizations to pharmaceutical companies. Stike four. Bases loaded. Poor Rickey baby. > That should be enough for starters. LOL! The end. > ----- > Richard Schultz > :> And I am asking you for a response to the studies that "prove" that > :> acupuncture does not work any better than a placebo. > > : Ok. Read them, they are proven. > > Then you agree that acupuncture is not effective. It is a proven fact they are effective. Evidently--you cannot read, nor comprehend. > : You can stop with ye ole placebo excuse. > > Do you even know what a placebo is? What a sttupid question and lame excuse to divert. You have proven yourself to be uneducated about the subject. > ----- > Richard Schultz |
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