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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008Acupuncture Training at Harvard University Medical School
Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers acupuncture training to MD's? Is it any surprise that this 9 month class sold out? Nope, its pretty predicatable given the overwhelming support acupuncture has in the US, UK, and world health communities. http://cme.med.harvard.edu/index.asp Here is the detailed course catalog, note the many LAc's teaching the MD's: http://cme.med.harvard.edu/cmeups/pdf/00282317.pdf > Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers > acupuncture training to MD's? Is it any surprise that this 9 month [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://cme.med.harvard.edu/cmeups/pdf/00282317.pdf No - I don't find it any surprise! Legitimate forms of alternative medicine will eventually find their way to the surface, and become part of mainstream practice. Kaiser already accepts accupuncture. Regimines which are outright fraudulent quackery, will likely always have their proponents screaming the loudest against conventional medicine, and promoting conspiracy theories to steer focus away how ridiculous some of their claims actually are. : Kaiser already accepts accupuncture. : : Regimines which are outright fraudulent quackery, will likely always : have their proponents screaming the loudest against conventional : medicine, and promoting conspiracy theories to steer focus away how : ridiculous some of their claims actually are. Acupuncture isn't "fraudulent quackery" -- its practitioners clearly believe that it works. When you point out to them studies that indicate that it works no better than a placebo, they put their fingers in their ears and start shouting "I can't hear you," however. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > Acupuncture isn't "fraudulent quackery" -- its practitioners clearly > believe that it works. When you point out to them studies that indicate > that it works no better than a placebo, they put their fingers in their > ears and start shouting "I can't hear you," however. I'm fairly certain accupuncture isn't fraudulent quackery. I have a friend who has been significantly helped by it, when nearly everything else failed. If it was only placebo effect that accounts for it working, it wouldn't likely work on animals too! > Acupuncture isn't "fraudulent quackery" -- its practitioners clearly > believe that it works. When you point out to them studies that indicate > that it works no better than a placebo, they put their fingers in their > ears and start shouting "I can't hear you," however. I'm fairly certain accupuncture isn't fraudulent quackery. I have a friend who has been significantly helped by it, when nearly everything else failed. If it was only placebo effect that accounts for it working, it wouldn't likely work on animals too! PM Young children and animals do appear to respond to placebo. Why? 1. Lots of things get better anyway 2. Those making the observations are attuned to find benefits where there really are none 3. Many treatments involve or are accompanied by extra attentions to which the children/animals may respond. An example is infantile colic. Any treatment at all will be likely to found to "work" within an hour or so, for one or more of these reasons. PM : I'm fairly certain accupuncture isn't fraudulent quackery. I have a : friend who has been significantly helped by it, when nearly everything : else failed. I have a friend who was injured by it. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- The gardener plants an evergreen whilst trampling on a flower. . . > In article <641f7b57-b038-4ad6-84bc-6683d4f05...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Myrl <wisgroup_lea...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I have a friend who was injured by it. Talk about two very unlikely events! What a rare person to be in two such "exclusive" clubs. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > The gardener plants an evergreen whilst trampling on a flower. . . > In article <a6f0299f-c23b-41ae-ad60-f23c33b90...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Myrl <wisgroup_lea...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that it works no better than a placebo, they put their fingers in their > ears and start shouting "I can't hear you," however. Nope, we just point to the overwhelming number of studies which clearly indicate the opposite. You know, studies like the 2004 osteoarthritis study which showed both improvements in function as well as reduction in pain. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > In article > <a6f0299f-c23b-41ae-ad60-f23c33b90...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Myrl [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that it works no better than a placebo, they put their fingers in their > ears and start shouting "I can't hear you," however. Nope, we just point to the overwhelming number of studies which clearly indicate the opposite. You know, studies like the 2004 osteoarthritis study which showed both improvements in function as well as reduction in pain. PM Any group of osteoarthritis patients seeking treatment will contaiun many who will improve in function and pain over time, so it requires a number of very good quality studies to prove that acupuncture is doing anything worthwhile for this condition. We would expect a great many studies to show positive results simply because of the difficulties in blinding acupuncture patients as to whether they are getting real treatment or sham. There is also a lesson in the very inconsistent results that have been obtained with glucosamine, a treatment that should be easily blinded by having placebos that look the same. The trend is for independent studies to give negative results and for the positive results to occur mainly in those studies funded by manufacturers of the product. We are now very wary of pharmacsutical company research, and there is no reason not to apply the same scepticism to those of acupuncture, especially with its serious plausibility problems.. PM > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" >> In article >> <a6f0299f-c23b-41ae-ad60-f23c33b90...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Myrl [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > blinding acupuncture patients as to whether they are getting real > treatment or sham. *We*--as in organized and conventional medicine. Nuff said. > There is also a lesson in the very inconsistent results that have been > obtained with glucosamine, a treatment that should be easily blinded by > having placebo ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. : PM Any group of osteoarthritis patients seeking treatment will contaiun many : who will improve in function and pain over time, so it requires a number of : very good quality studies to prove that acupuncture is doing anything : worthwhile for this condition. We would expect a great many studies to : show positive results simply because of the difficulties in blinding : acupuncture patients as to whether they are getting real treatment or sham. It's actually much simpler than that. If you read the original report of the 2004 study (as opposed to the press release that appears on the NCCAM web site), you'll find that the most objective measure of the efficacy of the treatment (the walking test) showed no significant difference between the control and experimental groups. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- The gardener plants an evergreen whilst trampling on a flower. . . :> Acupuncture isn't "fraudulent quackery" -- its practitioners clearly :> believe that it works. ?When you point out to them studies that indicate [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : Nope, we just point to the overwhelming number of studies which : clearly indicate the opposite. And you ignore the overwhelming number of studies that indicate that acupuncture works no better than a placebo, as shown by your refusing to acknowledge either the list of studies that I posted at the end of February, or the two studies of acupuncture's lack of significant effect in helping people to stop smoking. : You know, studies like the 2004 : osteoarthritis study which showed both improvements in function as : well as reduction in pain. Have you read the original article reporting the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study, or just the press release? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article > <a6f0299f-c23b-41ae-ad60-f23c33b90836@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Myrl [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Acupuncture isn't "fraudulent quackery" -- its practitioners clearly > believe that it works. Oops, you left out MD's. When you point out to them studies that indicate > that it works no better than a placebo, they put their fingers in their > ears and start shouting "I can't hear you," however. That is a blatant lie. Studies DO show that acupunture works. Ye ole *placebo* is a famous word with believers of organized and conventional medicine. You have been shown studies. Drop your pride and this war with Andrew Kingoff (certainly not one of my favorite posters) but, in this case he is correct and you are wrong, and have told lies just as you did in the above post. > ----- > Richard Schultz > > In article > > <a6f0299f-c23b-41ae-ad60-f23c33b90...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Myrl [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > correct > and you are wrong, and have told lies just as you did in the above post. Irony meters everwhere are shattering as I find myself in agreement with Jan. Either we have an indisputible fact or a fracture in the space-time continuum. If David Wright would quit bogarting all the Manganium Adamantium & Inertron, we could, in theory, build meters that would survive & measure such a consensus. As it is, we'll have to skip the irony and go straight to the obvious. Acupuncture works. It works when the airforce does it. It works when Harvard MD's perform it. It works when the UK uses it ahead of other methods for chronic pain and nausea. It has the glowing endorsement of mainstream medicine because it delivers the goods. > "Richard Schultz" <schu...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > correct > and you are wrong, and have told lies just as you did in the above post. Irony meters everwhere are shattering as I find myself in agreement with Jan. Oh, hush. Either we have an indisputible fact or a fracture in the space-time continuum. If David Wright would quit bogarting all the Manganium Adamantium & Inertron, we could, in theory, build meters that would survive & measure such a consensus. As it is, we'll have to skip the irony and go straight to the obvious. Acupuncture works. It works when the airforce does it. It works when Harvard MD's perform it. It works when the UK uses it ahead of other methods for chronic pain and nausea. It has the glowing endorsement of mainstream medicine because it delivers the goods. Agreed. Now--behave. Jan > Irony meters everwhere are shattering as I find myself in agreement > with Jan. Either we have an indisputible fact or a fracture in the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > glowing endorsement of mainstream medicine because it delivers the > goods.- One of the things that struck me was the mention of osteoarthritis and accupuncture, in one of the earlier responses to this thread. As it turns out, a family member has had osteoarthritis for years. During the late 1970s, he was put on a number of prescription medications for it. One of them totally chewed up his stomach. He has found the most effective relief, from using a Jacuzzi spa, and accupuncture. As a health consummer, I really couldn't care if a treatment provides symptom abattement from a placebo action or some more fully recognized bonified regime. What I care about - is that it provides relief. If the placebo invokes pain relief, and puts the individual in a better place (especially with pain), to me, that's a good thing! I used Lamaze methods during the birth of two of my children. It's not a pill, it's not an IV administered drug. But, it definitely works. And no, I didn't have epidurals, or any drugs to accompany that either. I even use my ole Lamaze methods when going to the dentist to get deep root cleanings (without novacane). And one of the last times I used it, was during a colonscopy awhile back. The doctor said I was one of the less than 1% that insists on doing the procedure un-medicated. We cannot know, what we do not know! - There are things that go on in science and nature, , that we don't always understand. Once we mere mortals finally understand, then it becomes science, because we feel superior enough to provide it that label. Accupuncture is increasingly being recognized as an effective treatment in conventional medicine. I think there's a good reason for that! > > Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers > > acupuncture training to MD's? Is it any surprise that this 9 month [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > medicine will eventually find their way to the surface, and become > part of mainstream practice. EXACTLY! : Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers : acupuncture training to MD's? Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the medical school that has a faculty member who believes in the reality of alien abductions? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." >: Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers >: acupuncture training to MD's? > >Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the medical school that has a >faculty member who believes in the reality of alien abductions? Not any more - he died.  SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com :>: Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers :>: acupuncture training to MD's? :>Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the medical school that has a :>faculty member who believes in the reality of alien abductions? : Not any more - he died. Are you sure that he wasn't abducted by aliens? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." "Richard Schultz" "Peter Bowditch" > In article <c31e7c41-cc8c-49a2-bc94-70c4a2b48...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > : Is it any surprise that one of our nation's finest universities offers > : acupuncture training to MD's? > > Stop me if I'm wrong, When has being wrong ever stopped you, Richard? The man has been dead for nearly 4 years, so clearly, he isn't a member of any faculty. > but isn't that the medical school that has a > faculty member who believes in the reality of alien abductions? He was not involved with the acupuncture research conducted at Harvard. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." :> but isn't that the medical school that has a :> faculty member who believes in the reality of alien abductions? : : He was not involved with the acupuncture research conducted at : Harvard. If you're going to use an argument from authority to indicate that the existence of a continuing education course in acupuncture at HMS has some significance, then why can't someone who believes in the reality of alien abductions make an analogous argument? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." > In article <146a8cb4-7bbd-4f85-a16c-7f3da9a72...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > has some significance, then why can't someone who believes in the > reality of alien abductions make an analogous argument? You can make the argument, but the analogy doesn't hold. If Harvard were training physicians to treat people for the effects of alien abduction, you might have a point. As it is, you are just being argumentative; no surprise there. What Harvard and many other prominent medical universities ARE doing is training physicians to treat patients with acupuncture. The armed forces, academia, conventional medicine, and the general public are riding on the acupuncture bandwagon. That is quite significant and it really burns your a.s. No amount of salve or denial will soothe that burning; relief will only come when you embrace the truth. : What Harvard and many other prominent medical universities ARE doing : is training physicians to treat patients with acupuncture. The armed : forces, academia, conventional medicine, and the general public are : riding on the acupuncture bandwagon. That is quite significant and it : really burns your a.s. The word you are looking for is "projection." : No amount of salve or denial will soothe that burning; relief will : only come when you embrace the truth. You mean the truth that you refuse to acknowledge the existence of studies that provide evidence that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "French bread makes very good skis" > In article <c3de7a2c-526f-4308-938b-0fc7ef676...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The word you are looking for is "projection." Are you really suggesting that acupuncture's acceptance within mainstream medicine, academia, and the armed forces burns my a.s? Clearly, it brings joy to my heart, a skip to my step, and a song to my mouth! Yeah, its pretty clear that you are the one upset about the situation, not I. Therefore, you are clearly the one engaged in projection. Why not skip the ego-defense mechanisms and embrace the healing goodness of acupuncture? The airforce is doing it, Harvard is doing it, Stanford is doing it, why not Richard Schultz? > : No amount of salve or denial will soothe that burning; relief will > : only come when you embrace the truth. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ----- > "French bread makes very good skis" :> : What Harvard and many other prominent medical universities ARE doing :> : is training physicians to treat patients with acupuncture. ?The armed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : Are you really suggesting that acupuncture's acceptance within : mainstream medicine, academia, and the armed forces burns my a.s? No, I am suggesting that unfortunately what I thought was merely a psychological defense mechanism on your part may actually be what it appears to be. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > In article <c641130b-435a-4c54-8cac-fce0a3db8...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > psychological defense mechanism on your part may actually be what it > appears to be. Nope. That burning smell is coming from you. Expect the flames to rise in direct proportion to acupuncture's skyrocketing acceptance within mainstream medicine. Or, you could grow up, get over it, move on, and embrace its wholesome efficacy. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" : Or, you could grow up, get over it, move on, and embrace its wholesome : efficacy. Have you read the original article that discussed the results of the 2004 osteoarthritis study? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> Is now repeating himself. Poor Rich. "Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> Keeps repeating lies. Sad that. > What Harvard and many other prominent medical universities ARE doing > is training physicians to treat patients with acupuncture. The armed > forces, academia, conventional medicine, and the general public are > riding on the acupuncture bandwagon. That is quite significant and it > really burns your a.s. Acupuncture isn't unique in that regard. Major medical schools are also teaching homeopathy, reflexology, and a whole host of other "alternatives." | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ > In message <c3de7a2c-526f-4308-938b-0fc7ef676...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > also teaching homeopathy, reflexology, and a whole host of other > "alternatives." Do you have an example of such a university offering PDAs in a clincial class on homeopathy, reflexology, or the like? :> Acupuncture isn't unique in that regard. ?Major medical schools are :> also teaching homeopathy, reflexology, and a whole host of other :> "alternatives." : Do you have an example of such a university offering PDAs in a : clincial class on homeopathy, reflexology, or the like? Check out the syllabus for the first course listed for the Georgetown University School of Medicine's CAM program: http://camprogram.georgetown.edu/curriculum.html I don't know if the University of Maryland School of Medicine offers classes in reflexology, but I do know that they offer reflexology for $50/session: http://medschool.umaryland.edu/integrative/jenner.asp A course given by AHC Media LLC, which is accredited by the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education, gives a course that includes "Reflexology Might Help Treat Detrusor Overactivity" in its syllabus: http://tinyurl.com/5a36fh ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." > In article <419bcbad-eaa1-4322-9539-84632b5b2...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I don't know if the University of Maryland School of Medicine offers classes > in reflexology, but I do know that they offer reflexology for $50/session:http://medschool.umaryland.edu/integrative/jenner.asp Nope. They don't teach it much less grant PDA's to MD's for it. > A course given by AHC Media LLC, which is accredited by the Accreditation > Council for Continuing Medical Education, gives a course that includes > "Reflexology Might Help Treat Detrusor Overactivity" in its syllabus:http://tinyurl.com/5a36fh Did you actually read any of these citations? If so, you most certainly did not see any mention of MD's being trained to practice reflexology. Can you do better? Would it be possible for you to either find a major US medical school that teaches MD's to PRACTICE homeopathy or reflexology? Should I instead cue the crickets? > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." : Did you actually read any of these citations? Did you read the original article reporting the results of the 2004 study of acupuncture for the treatment of osteoarthritis? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" Poor"Richard Schultz" cannot answer questions, so--he asks them. A so-called Ph.d doesn't know Roberts rules. >> In message <c3de7a2c-526f-4308-938b-0fc7ef676...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Do you have an example of such a university offering PDAs in a > clincial class on homeopathy, reflexology, or the like? Georgetown has now integrated a host of "CAM" topics across the curriculum. They're not separated. | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | +-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ > In message <419bcbad-eaa1-4322-9539-84632b5b2...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Georgetown has now integrated a host of "CAM" topics across > the curriculum. They're not separated. There isn't a single clinical course in their CAM MS program. There is a great difference between learning the definition and history of various methods and learning how to practice them. Do you have any evidence that their Medical School is teaching them to practice reflexology or homeopathy? Nope. Post something that does, if it exists. > -- > | "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against | > | unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct | > | before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson | > +-------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ---------+ : Do you have any evidence that their Medical School is teaching them to : practice reflexology or homeopathy? Nope. : : Post something that does, if it exists. You have in the past claimed that the presence of acupuncture as the topic of a medical school course was evidence that it is being accepted by mainstream medicine. Why is a medical school's *offering* reflexology as a therapy *not* evidence that reflexology is "being accepted by mainstream medicine"? Not that I've ever quite understood your willful ignorance about reflexology, given that it appears to be based on a theory that is remarkably similar to the one upon which acupuncture is based. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." > In article <fc24542f-49a2-4c85-876e-514295083...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of a medical school course was evidence that it is being accepted by > mainstream medicine. What I actually claimed was that training MD's to perform acupuncture was evidence that it was being accepted by mainstream medicine. You were the one that said you would consider it accepted when it becomes a standard part of the curriculum. Why is a medical school's *offering* reflexology a > a therapy *not* evidence that reflexology is "being accepted by > mainstream medicine"? Not that I've ever quite understood your willful > ignorance about reflexology, given that it appears to be based on a > theory that is remarkably similar to the one upon which acupuncture > is based. You'd need to put this question to someone knowledgable about reflexology. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and > if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." On May 22, 4:54 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > In article <fc24542f-49a2-4c85-876e-514295083...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and > > if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." You successfully made your point and now they'll try to wiggle out of it with a change of subject, misinterpretation of your comments or other sundry diversions. You can tell Richard is worried right away because he had to bring out his Tweeledee end quote to aid in distracting attention from your correct and entirely apropos arguments. Many thanks for a series of excellent posts and links regarding Acupuncture. In addition, I have found links to articles by Dr. Niemtzow involving work with utilizing Acupuncture to reduce pain suffered by amputees and other research articles of wide applicability and usefulness. Thanks Again Citizen Jimserac : You successfully made your point and now they'll try : to wiggle out of it with a change of subject, : misinterpretation of your comments or other sundry : diversions. His claim was that acupuncture is different than reflexology because the latter is not being taught by medical schools. I assume that the point of his demand for examples of the latter was to demonstrate that such medical schools do not exist. I gave him three examples: two of courses given either by medical schools or accredited by the same agency that accredits CME programs given by medical schools, and one of a medical school that includes on its staff someone who practices reflexology. I'm not sure how that counts as a change of subject. Or are you telling us that you agree that reflexology does not work? If so, maybe you can explain why, given that it is based on a theory that is remarkably similar to the one upon which acupuncture is based. And maybe you can explain why Mr. Kingoff is so unwilling to learn anything about reflexology (except for the obvious reason). ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Any other education would have required a serious effort, but no one took Harvard College seriously." > In article <76486a98-6db4-413d-8933-20e795e4b...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that accredits CME programs given by medical schools, and one of a > medical school that includes on its staff someone who practices reflexology. Nope. You are once again trying to pass off your strawman as my argument. What I have clearly said is that several medical schools teach MD's to perform acupuncture. They do not teach MD's to practice reflexology. They teach MD's to treat a wide range of medical conditions with acupuncture. With reflexology, one univerisity offers it to treat a single condition and it is neither taught to nor performed by MD's. By your "logic", if a medical school teaches a class on drug abuse, you insist that they advocate drug abuse. By my logic, WHEN they train MD's to perform acupuncture, they are advocate practicing acupuncture. What I have shown is that Harvard, Stanford, Duke, UNC, et al offer acupuncture training to MD's and allow them to practice it within their medical university clinics. What you have not shown is a single example of MD's being trained to perform reflexology nor homeopathy for that matter. So, when _are_ you going to show us the accredited medical schools that train MD's to perform reflexology? I'll go cue the crickets for you. :> His claim was that acupuncture is different than reflexology because :> the latter is not being taught by medical schools. I assume that the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : argument. What I have clearly said is that several medical schools : teach MD's to perform acupuncture. What you have clearly said is that *one* medical school sponsors a CME course in acupuncture. What you have clearly said is that several medical schools teach acupuncture *as part of the curriculum*, i.e., to students who are not yet MD's. Of the examples I gave, one was for a CME course that included reflexology as a technique (that's better known as teaching reflexology to MD's), and one was for a course in a MS/MD program that teaches, inter alia, reflexology (that's better known as teaching reflexology to students who are not yet MD's). The third was a medical school that offers reflexology as a treatment method. It is not at all clear to me how the latter does not count as an example of what you have called acceptance by the mainstream. : By your "logic", if a medical school teaches a class on drug abuse, : you insist that they advocate drug abuse. By any normal kind of logic, you are an idiot. If a medical school teaches a class on *how to abuse drugs* then I would point out that by *your* definition, they must accept drug abuse as a mainstream practice. If a medical school teaches a class on *how to treat drug abuse*, then by *your* definition, that would mean that the medical school accepts that drug abuse is a problem that needs attention. I don't "insist" on anything -- I was providing examples that match *your* definitions and *your* demands. : So, when _are_ you going to show us the accredited medical schools : that train MD's to perform reflexology? I'll go cue the crickets for : you. As far as I can tell, Stanford's course in acupuncture is an elective taught to fourth year students, not to MD's. Doubtless you will correct me if I'm wrong. If I were you, I would be careful about "cueing crickets"; someone might take the trouble to find the first time that I asked you whether or not you had read the original article that reported the results of the 2004 study of acupuncture as a treatment for osteoarthritis, or remind you of the date that I posted a list of articles about the efficacy of acupuncture, or of the date that I posted the two citations to articles that indicated that acupuncture is not effective as a treatment for quitting smoking. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." :> You have in the past claimed that the presence of acupuncture as the topic :> of a medical school course was evidence that it is being accepted by :> mainstream medicine. ? : : What I actually claimed was that training MD's to perform acupuncture : was evidence that it was being accepted by mainstream medicine. Things that are equal to equal things are equal to each other This is my favorite axiom, I would not choose another. : Why is a medical school's *offering* reflexology a :> a therapy *not* evidence that reflexology is "being accepted by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : You'd need to put this question to someone knowledgable about : reflexology. You mean that only someone knowledgable about reflexology can tell whether or not it is being accepted by mainstream medicine? If so, then why did you demand to be told the names of medical schools at which reflexology is being taught. It can't be because you want to learn about it -- as I said, your ignorance of reflexology appears to be willful. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . but, disappointment apart, Harvard College was probably less hurtful than any other university then in existence. It taught little, and that little ill. . ." > In article <8e58d13f-470b-411f-adb5-10a8951a9...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Things that are equal to equal things are equal to each other > This is my favorite axiom, I would not choose another. It is a fine axiom, but you should learn how to apply it. So, you think that medical universities training physicians to perform acupuncture is the same as one university allowing a reflexologist to work on a single condition. You feel that acupuncture has to be part of the standard curriculum to be considered accepted, but a single reflexologist treating a single condition in a single medical university constitutes universal acceptance. That is an interesting insight in how you think. > : Why is a medical school's *offering* reflexology a > :> a therapy *not* evidence that reflexology is "being accepted by [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > is being taught. It can't be because you want to learn about it -- as I > said, your ignorance of reflexology appears to be willful. You'd need to put this question to someone knowledgable about reflexology. One of the few things I know about reflexology is that the fact that NO accreditted US medical schools are training MD's to perform reflexology. There are several major medical universities training MD's to practice acupuncture. Heck, over 10,000 US MD's are certitified to practice acupuncture. That number is probably over 20,000, but I'll look into that later. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hurtful than any other university then in existence. It taught little, > and that little ill. . ." : You'd need to put this question to someone knowledgable about : reflexology. One of the few things I know about reflexology is that : the fact that NO accreditted US medical schools are training MD's to : perform reflexology. Next time you talk to CJ, please point this out to him as an example of "argument from authority." He has been having trouble understanding the concept. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Four years of Harvard College, if successful, resulted in an autobiographical blank, a mind on which only a water-mark had been stamped." > In article <3504abca-ed3a-49de-9b37-91da48119...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "argument from authority." He has been having trouble understanding the > concept. Roger that. > ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Four years of Harvard College, if successful, resulted in an > autobiographical blank, a mind on which only a water-mark had been stamped." > In article > <fc24542f-49a2-4c85-876e-514295083b27@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, The [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of a medical school course was evidence that it is being accepted by > mainstream medicine. Which is absolute correct. <snip diversions, which is all Rich has> > ----- > Richard Schultz The world cares very little about what a person knows; it is what the person is able to do that counts. Booker T Washington "Richard Schultz" Diversion deleted. Give it up, Rich, you have already made a complete and total fool of yourself. Pride will do that, you know? <snip pitiful attempt to divert> |
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