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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008

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Japanese Autism Numbers Rose & Fell With Vaccinations

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JOHN - 18 May 2008 14:46 GMT
http://whale.to/vaccine/japan_data.html
Jeff - 18 May 2008 16:16 GMT
> http://whale.to/vaccine/japan_data.html

What a joke!

You really think that these data show that vaccines cause autism? We
don't even know if the numbers are statistically significant. Usually
data derived for one thing being used for something else gives
notoriously misleading results. That's why scientists make hypotheses
and replicate the data.

According to the page, thimerasol is implicated. however, the author
failed to explain why autism rates in the US did not go down after
thimerasol was removed from vaccines.

This page shows what a complete lack of understand of science and
medicine the author of the page has.

Have a lovely day!

jeff
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 May 2008 16:31 GMT
> >http://whale.to/vaccine/japan_data.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> jeff

The American autism rates are controlled by the medical ghouls and not
subject to the perview of honest scientists.  The medical ghouls can
make the numbers say whatever they want via manipulating the
statistics.

Secondly, the thimerosal was not changed until after 2003 or even
2004, and even then it was only reduced.

May your days be cloudy and lonely.
You blood poisoners and baby killing ghouls deserve no better.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Mark Probert - 20 May 2008 22:31 GMT
On May 18, 11:31 am, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:

> Secondly, the thimerosal was not changed until after 2003 or even
> 2004, and even then it was only reduced.

That is a flat out lie, Shmuckie.
David Wright - 21 May 2008 05:04 GMT
>> >http://whale.to/vaccine/japan_data.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>make the numbers say whatever they want via manipulating the
>statistics.

A typical Cee dodge -- any statistic he doesn't like is faked by the
Medical Establishment.

>Secondly, the thimerosal was not changed until after 2003 or even
>2004, and even then it was only reduced.

No, the thimerosal was removed well before that and virtually all
vaccines containing it (other than flu vaccine) were off the shelves
by 2002.

And it was reduced by two orders of magnitude.  For those readers who
are mathematically challenged (like Cee), that means by a factor of
100.  Meaning that a full battery of vaccines today contains less
thimerosal than *one* vaccine would have ten years ago.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
JOHN - 21 May 2008 11:20 GMT
> No, the thimerosal was removed well before that and virtually all
> vaccines containing it (other than flu vaccine) were off the shelves
> by 2002.

Bollocks, you can see the 2002 ones containing it here
http://whale.to/a/thimerosal2002.html

and still in some more now, not just flu
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

whuch they want to give to pregnant women

to get the mercury agenda see http://whale.to/vaccine/ayoub_v.html

and still given to third world children:

"They have remained silent as mercury laden vaccine continue to be exported
and used in all third world and second world countries."
http://whale.to/a/stoller.html

"There's the flu shot, loaded with mercury and given to pregnant women and
infants. There are still other vaccines manufactured and/or preserved with
mercury. And then there are those 100 million kids a year in the rest of the
world who are getting  shot full of thimerosal because our government says
it's safe." http://whale.to/vaccine/olmsted_on_autism.html

which just highlights the nature of the vaccine industry

> And it was reduced by two orders of magnitude.  For those readers who
> are mathematically challenged (like Cee), that means by a factor of
> 100.  Meaning that a full battery of vaccines today contains less
> thimerosal than *one* vaccine would have ten years ago.

woopee, its not just mercury is it, but now they have many more vaccines
with assorted poisons ---- 38 in 2007 http://whale.to/v/schedule.html  10 in
1983
David Wright - 22 May 2008 03:41 GMT
>> No, the thimerosal was removed well before that and virtually all
>> vaccines containing it (other than flu vaccine) were off the shelves
>> by 2002.
>
>Bollocks, you can see the 2002 ones containing it here
>http://whale.to/a/thimerosal2002.html

Yep, and you'll see that none of them (except maybe flu vaccine) are
on the normal recommended schedule.  And as I recall, flu vax wasn't
on the recommended list in 2002.

>and still in some more now, not just flu
>http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

Again, not part of the regular schedule for childhood vaccinations, so
not relevant.

>whuch they want to give to pregnant women
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>and used in all third world and second world countries."
>http://whale.to/a/stoller.html

That is true.  That's because they don't have reliable refrigeration
in those countries.

>"There's the flu shot, loaded with mercury and given to pregnant women and
>infants. There are still other vaccines manufactured and/or preserved with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>which just highlights the nature of the vaccine industry

Yeah, confound them for wanting to make a product that can be used in
a third-world country where there's no refrigeration!

>> And it was reduced by two orders of magnitude.  For those readers who
>> are mathematically challenged (like Cee), that means by a factor of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>with assorted poisons ---- 38 in 2007 http://whale.to/v/schedule.html  10 in
>1983

This is the latest tactic of the antivaxers -- as the evidence mounts
that thimerosal had nothing to do with autism, they switch to blaming
other "toxins" in the vaccines.  Aluminum is moving up in popularity
right now.  Or, in John's case, he blames whatever is handy.  Some
days it's mercury, some days it's MMR, and some days it's probably
death rays from invisible orbiting spaceships.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
JOHN - 22 May 2008 07:39 GMT
> Yep, and you'll see that none of them (except maybe flu vaccine) are
> on the normal recommended schedule.  And as I recall, flu vax wasn't
> on the recommended list in 2002.

bollocks:

Pneumococcal
Hepatitis B

Hib

DTaP

all on the Recommended Childhood and Adolescent Immunization Schedule

killfile this moron
David Wright - 23 May 2008 03:54 GMT
>> Yep, and you'll see that none of them (except maybe flu vaccine) are
>> on the normal recommended schedule.  And as I recall, flu vax wasn't
>> on the recommended list in 2002.
>
>bollocks:

Bollocks right back at you, you poor illiterate.

>Pneumococcal

Only one of the three available vaccines at that time had thimerosal
in it and I believe Prevnar was the big seller (and it didn't).

>Hepatitis B

Only Recombivax, and it was available without thimerosal.

>Hib

Only from multi-dose vials.

>DTaP

You really should learn to read.  Your own web site, and you can't
even read it.  The two vaccines listed containing any thimerosal say
quite clearly "no longer produced."

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
JOHN - 23 May 2008 07:00 GMT
> Only Recombivax, and it was available without thimerosal.
>
>>Hib
>
> Only from multi-dose vials.

Not exactly all mercury free as you claim is it?
David Wright - 28 May 2008 05:37 GMT
>> Only Recombivax, and it was available without thimerosal.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Not exactly all mercury free as you claim is it?

Close enough.  Certainly not the stew you were claiming.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
JanDrew - 20 May 2008 02:07 GMT
Jeffery Peter Joseph Utz, is NOT a kids doc.

He keeps lying by posting that he is.

>> http://whale.to/vaccine/japan_data.html
Citizen Jimserac - 18 May 2008 18:31 GMT
> http://whale.to/vaccine/japan_data.html

Well well well, interesting web site because
now Richard will have to come with some
new quote from Anthony Trollope to explain those numbers.

And...SURPRISE!!!!!!
Reading down the webpage about the
Japanese statistics....

-->Look who's here everyone, it's none other
than DR. BEN GOLDACRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we all remember his wringing (or was it
ringing?) "refutation" (sic) of
Homeopathy.

It would seem that "Dr." Goldacre is NOT a bonafide researcher or
scientific experimentor, oh no, it turns out that he is a
PSYCHIATRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And with the record of THAT "science" (sic)
one looks on in amazement that he would dare
to attack Homeopathy!!!

SO Ben is in on convincing everyone that autism is absolutely
positively genetic and absolutely
positively NOT the result of vaccinations.

Well have the chickens come home to roost
or what?

Citizen Jimserac

(Richard, we await your quotes with interest).
D. C. Sessions - 18 May 2008 18:55 GMT
> Well well well, interesting web site because
> now Richard will have to come with some
> new quote from Anthony Trollope to explain those numbers.

What numbers?  None given.  Raw data (and I don't mean
$29 per at Blackwell Synergy.)

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
Citizen Jimserac - 20 May 2008 18:32 GMT
> In message <52cdd823-0ef3-4963-b59d-b546fa081...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> |  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
> +-------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ---------+

Yeah what numbers?  Huh?  What is that
Citizen Jimserac talking about - why it's absolutely
preposterous that vaccines should have anything
to do with autism....

Your outrage is noted, AND dismissed.

Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 21 May 2008 03:55 GMT
>> In message <52cdd823-0ef3-4963-b59d-b546fa081...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> preposterous that vaccines should have anything
> to do with autism....

It's a bit hard to have a meaningful discussion on the point
without data, though.

> Your outrage is noted, AND dismissed.

Projecting again, I see.

| "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against |
|  unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct   |
|  before reason can act on them" -- Thomas Jefferson    |
+-------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---------+
JanDrew - 22 May 2008 06:56 GMT
> Projecting

ZZzz.
> | "Ridicule
>D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com>

Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized In the first
it is ridiculed,
in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident"
Mark Probert - 23 May 2008 22:50 GMT
> > In message <52cdd823-0ef3-4963-b59d-b546fa081...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Your outrage is noted, AND dismissed.

Dismissed because you did not understand it.
Mark Probert - 20 May 2008 22:33 GMT
> -->Look who's here everyone, it's none other
> than DR. BEN GOLDACRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> one looks on in amazement that he would dare
> to attack Homeopathy!!!

Yes, Jimmy, once again you prove the paucity of your ideas by worrying
more about WHO is talking, rather than WHAT is being said.

Typical Altie behavior.
JanDrew - 21 May 2008 02:41 GMT
On May 18, 1:31 pm, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -->Look who's here everyone, it's none other
> than DR. BEN GOLDACRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> one looks on in amazement that he would dare
> to attack Homeopathy!!!

Yes, Jimmy, once again you prove the paucity of your ideas by worrying
more about WHO is talking, rather than WHAT is being said.

Typical Altie behavior.

That is a flat out lie, Mark S Probert, Merrick, NY.
JOHN - 21 May 2008 11:21 GMT
>Yes, Jimmy, once again you prove the paucity of your ideas by worrying
>more about WHO is talking, rather than WHAT is being said.

>Typical Altie behavior.

Bit rich considering your main argument is ad hominem.

Goldacre dissected http://whale.to/b/goldacre_h.html
Citizen Jimserac - 21 May 2008 15:03 GMT
> Goldacre dissectedhttp://whale.to/b/goldacre_h.html

My most profound thanks for the excellent
link listing Goldacre's "contributions".

As with all quackers, he makes a quick foray
with incomplete data or data which focuses
on failed or incomplete results and then vanishes
when REAL Doctors of Homeopathy criticize
with real data and real double blinded
placebo controlled studies and real
research that is not "recast" by
amateurs for television specials nor
mediated by the "amazing" Randi.

I was originally a skeptic about Homeopathy
having any possibility of working and was
a firm believer in the efficacy of vaccines,
the result of accepting  years of propaganda
and shouts that "science" was behind it.

Brilliant presentation by Dr. Iris Bell M.D. PhD
in support of Homeopathy and confirming
the accuracy and efficacy of recent reaearch:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wYO6nNQGe1M

A full list of PEER REVIEWED papers supporting her research
can be found at:

http://nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/articles/view,173

Good research, reading, the internet and thinking
gradually forced me to admit that Homeopathy
is viable and not only works but works well
and that the vaccine system into which
I had placed trust for most of my life
is in fact, verified only with fabricated
substantiations such as the "Francis" report.

The most recent example of Vaccine worthlessness
is the much touted "tamiflu" vaccine.  What
merits it might have had are moot because
virus that it targets has long since mutated.

As with antibiotics, this is why new and yet newer
and yet more new vaccines are constantly needed
as the pharma and big vac industry rake in profits
chasing a constantly moving target at the
expense of the health of masses of people.

Many thanks for the links.

Citizen Jimserac
Note to Mark, Rich, Martin -> PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!!
Mark Probert - 21 May 2008 19:40 GMT
> Note to Mark, Rich, Martin -> PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!!

Note to Jimmy:

Please prove the following:

1. Like cures like

2. Water has memory.

When you prove those two concepts to be true, then we can discuss the
possible efficacy of homeopathy.

Try to understand this: I do not build a building until I build the
foundation.
JOHN - 21 May 2008 21:45 GMT
>2. Water has memory.

easy https://www.hado.net/watercrystals/index.php

http://www.emotoproject.org/eng_home.html
Mark Probert - 21 May 2008 22:27 GMT
> >2. Water has memory.
>
> easyhttps://www.hado.net/watercrystals/index.php
>
> http://www.emotoproject.org/eng_home.html

John, your source is all wet. And, there is NO proof that water has
memory.
David Wright - 22 May 2008 03:51 GMT
>> >2. Water has memory.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>John, your source is all wet. And, there is NO proof that water has
>memory.

For a very funny discussion of Emoto's work, see:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/10/your_friday_dose_of_woo_h2ooooooommmm_1.php

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
JanDrew - 22 May 2008 07:02 GMT
"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote >
> http://scienceblogs.com/ 

Orac nose nuttin.

>  -- David Wright  
JOHN - 22 May 2008 07:41 GMT
On May 21, 4:45 pm, "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> http://www.emotoproject.org/eng_home.html

>John, your source is all wet. And, there is NO proof that water has
memory.

That was one proof, but it would blow your homeopathy crap out of the water
Mark Probert - 22 May 2008 13:44 GMT
> On May 21, 4:45 pm, "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> That was one proof, but it would blow your homeopathy crap out of the water

John, Orac sunk your proof.
JOHN - 22 May 2008 14:57 GMT
>John, Orac sunk your proof.

Orac.  He isn't my Oracle mate, sorry.
Mark Probert - 22 May 2008 20:04 GMT
> >John, Orac sunk your proof.
>
> Orac.  He isn't my Oracle mate, sorry.

Never said he was. However, he is a heck of a lot smarter than you,
and documents his articles with reality based facts, not the jibberish
you use.
JOHN - 22 May 2008 21:51 GMT
Never said he was. However, he is a heck of a lot smarter than you,
and documents his articles with reality based facts, not the jibberish
you use.

he can't be that clever to be fooled by all the allopathic hoaxes
http://whale.to/a/hoaxmed.html
Mark Probert - 23 May 2008 13:31 GMT
> Never said he was. However, he is a heck of a lot smarter than you,
> and documents his articles with reality based facts, not the jibberish
> you use.
>
> he can't be that clever to be fooled by all the allopathic hoaxeshttp://whale.to/a/hoaxmed.html

Au contraire. It is YOU who have been fooled by the non-allopathic
idiots.
Jan Drew - 25 May 2008 07:30 GMT
On May 22, 4:51 pm, "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> he can't be that clever to be fooled by all the allopathic
> hoaxeshttp://whale.to/a/hoaxmed.html

Au contraire. It is YOU who have been fooled by the non-allopathic
idiots.

Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically
unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits
by Alexis Black

Every year millions of Americans go under the knife, but many of them are
enduring great pain and shelling out thousands of dollars for surgeries they
don't really need. In fact, the only people who seem to really benefit from
these unnecessary medical procedures are the medical professionals who stand
to make exorbitant amounts of money from performing them.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are
performed each year, writes Gary Null, PhD., in Death by Medicine. Rather
than reverse the problems they purport to fix, these unwarranted procedures
can often lead to greater health problems and even death. A 1995 report by
Milliman & Robertson, Inc. concluded that nearly 60 percent of all surgeries
performed are medically unnecessary, according to Under The Influence of
Modern Medicine by Terry A. Rondberg. Some of the most major and frequently
performed unnecessary surgeries include hysterectomies, Cesarean sections
and coronary artery bypass surgeries.

Coronary bypasses are the most common unnecessary surgeries in America
In a nation plagued by heart disease, it often seems that the knee-jerk
reaction of American doctors is to treat heart problems with surgery.
However, many of the heart surgeries performed each year are unnecessary
procedures that could be putting the patients' lives at greater risk.
"(W)hen faced with heart disease, doctors recommend a bypass. By so doing,
we think, they bypass the real problem. Bypasses are the single most
commonly performed unnecessary surgery in the country," write Dr. Mark Hyman
and Dr. Mark Liponis in Ultraprevention. In fact, according to Burton
Goldberg, author of Heart Disease, most coronary artery bypass surgeries and
angioplasties produce no real benefit to the patient and dangerous side
effects like stroke or brain damage may result from the operations.
"Coronary artery bypass surgery is called an 'overprescribed and unnecessary
surgery' by many leading authorities," Goldberg writes. "Complications from
such treatments are common and the expense to the health care system is
extraordinarily high. In 1994, an estimated 501,000 bypass surgeries at
$44,000 each were performed on Americans, 47 percent of which were done on
men."

Women are at an especially high risk of unnecessary surgery
Women may be at an especially high risk for unwarranted operations, since
hysterectomies and Cesarean sections also top the list of "overprescribed
and unnecessary" surgeries. Of the approximately 750,000 hysterectomies
performed each year, 90 percent are unnecessary, writes Goldberg in
Alternative Medicine, making the removal of a woman's uterus one of the most
commonly performed unnecessary surgeries. And the risk that comes with an
unwarranted hysterectomy is high. "Each year 750,000 hysterectomies are
performed and 2,500 women die during the operation. These are not sick
women, but healthy women who go into the hospital and do not come out," says
Dr. Herbert Goldfarb, a gynecologist and assistant clinical professor at New
York University's School of Medicine, in Null's Woman's Encyclopedia Of
Natural Healing.

Women are also frequently subjected to Caesarean sections they don't really
need. With an estimated 920,000 Cesarean births performed each year, the
Cesarean has become the "most common major surgery in America" and it is
four times more likely a woman will give birth via cesarean section today
than it was in 1970, according to The Medical Racket by Martin L. Gross.
Women are also at special risk for receiving unwarranted surgeries because
of the results of a mammogram, since the high rate of false positives in
mammography often leads to invasive procedures. Women who do not even have
cancer to begin with are treated for breast cancer, Goldberg writes. That's
right: These women's bodies are carved up and altered and they aren't even
sick. So why does this happen?

Needless surgeries mean higher profits for doctors and hospitals
It may seem unfathomable to think a doctor could be so careless as to
perform an operation that doesn't need to be done, but it has been happening
for years, from the more minor routinely- performed tonsillectomies of the
past to the invasive heart procedures, hysterectomies, back surgeries and
more of today. "(T)he reality is that unnecessary surgery, whether performed
by doctors who operate out of ignorance, self-delusion, or simple greed has
long plagued medicine and today still reaches epidemic proportions." writes
Gross. It may be hard to stomach the idea that doctors are capable of
operating out of greed for more money, but some feel that is exactly what is
happening. "American physicians are generally way too eager to use the
surgeon's knife to carve up and chop out whatever they think is ailing you,
at great expense to you and great profit to them and the hospitals they work
for," write Earl Mindell and Virginia Hopkins in Prescription Alternatives.

When it comes to heart surgeries, Heart Frauds author Dr. Charles T. McGee
writes, "As Harvard professor Braunwald predicted, a financial empire has
developed around surgical procedures on the heart. With so many powerful
vested interests involved, it will be difficult to change how American
doctors treat patients with coronary artery disease. No one who is currently
gaining from the system has any incentive to try to stop the unnecessary
costs and suffering." In other words, surgery makes money and surgery is
what medical professionals are trained to do, so rather than exert the time
and energy to try more conservative treatments that could threaten their
very careers, medical professionals often turn to surgery as their most
immediate and financially logical avenue. "The economic incentive for a
physician to operate on you is great. Surgeries make doctors a lot of money.
Doctors are human beings and they are not immune to the lure of bigger
profits," according to Prescription Medicines, Side Effects and Natural
Alternatives by American Medical Publishing.

One extreme case involving a doctor knowingly reaping the financial benefits
of unnecessary surgeries occurred in California, where an ophthalmologist
managed to bill Medicare $46 million over four years for unwarranted
operations he performed on his patients. "According to the government, he
created a 'surgery mill,' in which he falsified patient records to justify
numerous unnecessary cataract and eyelid operations. In addition to this
wholesale theft, he put his patients through unneeded pain and worry,"
writes Gross. It is also important to note in all of this that unnecessary
surgery is not considered medical malpractice, according to Rondberg in
Under the Influence of Modern Medicine, which makes it even more important
for patients to protect themselves by looking into all possible avenues
before going under the knife.

If you imagine for a moment being knocked out, sliced open and having a part
of your body removed for no logical reason, it sounds more like a nightmare
than a visit to the hospital. But that's what is happening to millions in
American hospitals every year. We are having organs and body parts removed
without reason, and for what? Why are we so willing to give our bodies over
to a person wielding a very sharp knife and some very strong drugs? Maybe
it's because we trust that our doctors will do what is best for us, since,
after all, we don't have the medical training they do. But when it comes to
your body and your health, it's okay to be skeptical and to want all the
information you can get. The bottom line is: Surgery is not something to be
taken lightly. When confronted with the suggestion that you need to go under
the knife, it's important to remember that you have a choice. Don't just
trust one doctor to know what's best for you. Get a second opinion. It could
mean the difference between life and death.

The experts speak on unjustified surgery:

A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and
government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes
more harm than good. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical
procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. The number of people exposed
to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 10

Annually, between 20 million and 25 million surgical procedures are carried
out among all the specialties except plastic surgery. This study determined
that between 15% and 29% were unnecessary. For example, 27% of the women who
had hysterectomies, the second most common surgery, didn't need the
operation!
Health In The 21st Century by Fransisco Contreras MD, page 212

Despite what appears to be an attempt by the medical profession to keep that
kind of information from the public, a few reports have surfaced which show
clearly that the problem with unnecessary surgeries is not a thing of the
past. In a 1995 report issued by Milliman & Robertson, Inc., titled
"Analysis of Medically Unnecessary Inpatient Services," researchers David V.
Axene, FSA and Richard Doyle, M.D., concluded that "the level of medically
unnecessary use may actually be closer to 60%" (than their previously
projected 53%). This included a variety of surgical procedures as well as
associated services. That same year, the federal government's Agency for
Health Care Policy Research (AHCPR) concluded that most back surgery was
unnecessary. Back surgeons immediately began a campaign to abolish the
agency. Other reports confirm this frightening statistic.
Under The Influence Modern Medicine by Terry A Rondberg DC, page 132

Women with urinary incontinence are often advised to get bladder surgery,
even hysterectomies. But this drastic approach may be completely
unnecessary, according to Dr. Hufnagel, who says that women need to be
educated about more conservative treatments for this common everyday
occurrence.
Womans Encyclopedia Of Natural Healing by Dr Gary Null, page 26

The Harvard University School of Public Health estimates that as many as 1.3
million Americans suffer disabling injuries in hospitals yearly, and 198,000
of those may result in death; 7 out of 10 of which were preventable (48%
from faulty surgery), and 1/3 from negligence.
Anti-Aging Manual by Joseph B Marion, page 100

Almost thirty years ago, in 1974, the Congressional Committee on Interstate
and Foreign Commerce held hearings on unnecessary surgery. They found that
17.6% of recommendations for surgery were not confirmed by a second opinion.
The House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations extrapolated these
figures and estimated that, on a nationwide basis, there were 2.4 million
unnecessary surgeries performed annually, resulting in 11,900 deaths at an
annual cost of $3.9 billion.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 19

One surprising discovery in recent research is that smoking is the cause of
28 percent of urinary incontinence in women. Studies indicate that surgery
and the use of pharmaceuticals are often unnecessary; other methods that
have proven effective are behavioral techniques and biofeedback, Kegel
exercises, which strengthen pelvic muscles, electrical stimulation of the
pelvic floor, and acupuncture. A natural treatment, according to one study,
can be extracted from the plant marshmallow; this helps incontinence by
treating inflammation of the genito-urinary tract.
Womans Encyclopedia Of Natural Healing by Dr Gary Null, page 26

Unfortunately for millions each year, this may not be the case. They may
instead be victims of powerful medical propaganda that makes every operation
seem essential. But the reality is that unnecessary surgery, whether
performed by doctors who operate out of ignorance, self-delusion, or simple
greed has long plagued medicine and today still reaches epidemic
proportions.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 176

The unnecessary surgery figures are escalating just as prescription drugs
driven by television advertising. Media-driven surgery such as gastric
bypass for obesity "modeled" by Hollywood personalities seduces obese people
to think this route is safe and sexy. There is even a problem of surgery
being advertised on the Internet.76 A study in Spain declares that between
20 and 25% of total surgical practice represents unnecessary operations.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 19

In his book, "Health Shock," journalist Martin Weitz reported that a 1974
Senate investigation into unnecessary surgery found that "American doctors
performed 2.4 million unnecessary operations, causing 11,900 deaths and
costing $3.9 billion." In 1982, Robert G. Schneider, M.D., calculated that
between 15 and 25% of all surgeries were unnecessary - with that figure
rising to 50-60% with some types of operations. In the case of
tonsillectomies and hysterectomies, the percentage was as high as 40-80%.
Under The Influence Modern Medicine by Terry A Rondberg DC, page 131

Some studies suggest that almost 40 percent of surgical operations in the
United States are unnecessary.
When Healing Becomes A Crime by Kenny Ausubel, page 333

A 1987 JAMA study found the following significant levels of inappropriate
surgery: 17% of cases for coronary angiography, 32% for carotid
endarterectomy, and 17% for upper gastrointestinal tract endoscopy. Using
the Healthcare Cost and Utilization Project (HCUP) statistics provided by
the government for 2001, the number of people getting upper gastrointestinal
endoscopy, which usually entails biopsy, was 697,675; the number getting
endarterectomy was 142,401; and the number having coronary angiography was
719,949.13 Therefore, according to the JAMA study 17%, or 118,604 people had
an unnecessary endoscopy procedure. Endarterectomy occurred in 142,401
patients; potentially 32% or 45,568 did not need this procedure. And 17% of
719,949, or 122,391 people receiving coronary angiography were subjected to
this highly invasive procedure unnecessarily. These are all forms of medical
iatrogenesis.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 20

Your best defense against an unnecessary hysterectomy? Information-and a
second opinion, says Nora W. Coffey, president of Hysterectomy Educational
Resources and Services, an educational organization in Bala Cynwyd,
Pennsylvania. Educational organizations can supply information about the
surgery.
Woman's Encyclopedia by Denise Foley, page 219

Overlapping of statistics in Death by Medicine may occur with the Institute
of Medicine (IOM) paper that designates "medical error" as including drugs,
surgery, and unnecessary procedures. Since we have also included other
statistics on adverse drug reactions, surgery and, unnecessary procedures,
perhaps as much as 50% of the IOM number could be redundant. However, even
taking away half the 98,000 IOM number still leaves us with iatrogenic
events as the number one killer at 738,000 annual deaths.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 10

When in doubt about the diagnosis or recommendation, don't hesitate to get a
second opinion -or a second diagnostic test. Your best defense against an
unnecessary hysterectomy is obtaining information before you meet with the
doctor. Read books, find people who've had the surgery (or the
alternatives), contact support groups, locate medical literature. And then
show them to your doctor, says Nora W. Coffey, president of Hysterectomy
Educational Resources and Services in Bala Cynwyd, Pennsylvania. "That's the
way to get a doctor's cooperation, and not hostility." And take control in
making the decision, she encourages. Get comprehensive information about the
condition you have, your options and the risks and dangers of the options.
Woman's Encyclopedia by Denise Foley, page 222

Stressors create a field of disturbance in the energetic web of the body.
These fields of disturbance are most often in the head, because the mouth is
where we most readily allow thoughtless or unnecessary surgery, excessive
procedures, and implantation of foreign materials. The results of the
disturbance can be felt anywhere in the body and can virtually block any
treatment's effectiveness.
Whole Body Dentistry by Mark A Breiner DDS, page 159

Unwarranted Surgery and Heart Related Problems:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO DIE: Angioplasty and coronary artery bypass surgery are
frequently unnecessary and produce no benefit to the patient at all. Some
people endure multiple operations (one patient whose case is discussed in
this book underwent 14 angioplasties) without result or their condition
returns later. In addition, bypass surgery is dangerous, many people
suffering strokes or other damage to their brain as a result of the
operation.
Heart Disease by Burton Goldberg, page 10

The bottom line is this: when patients are advised to have a coronary
angiogram, chances are eight out of ten that they do not need it. The
critical factor in whether a patient needs coronary artery bypass surgery or
angioplasty is how well the left ventricular pump is working, not the degree
of blockage or the number of arteries affected. The left ventricle (chamber)
of the heart is responsible for pumping oxygenated blood through the aorta
(the large artery emanating from the heart) and to the rest of the body.
Bypass surgery is only helpful when the ejection fraction (the amount of
blood pumped by the left ventricle) is less than forty percent of capacity.
Up to ninety percent of all bypass procedures are done when the ejection
fraction is greater than 50 percent, which is adequate for circulatory
needs. In other words, as many as 90 percent of all bypass procedures may be
unnecessary.
Encyclopedia Of Natural Medicine by Michael T Murray MD Joseph L Pizzorno
ND, page 243

Dr. Whitaker views most of the current therapies available to heart disease
patients as needless and unjustified. Most are ineffective in terms of
actually stopping and/or reversing the deterioration that has begun by the
time the patient seeks treatment. Catheterization, for example, has
insufficient scientific basis in Dr. Whitaker's opinion, yet thousands of
catheterizations are done almost routinely. Catheterizations are used to
detect arterial blockages and to open them up, often in conjunction with a
balloon angioplasty or a bypass. The angioplasty technique, as explained
earlier, is an invasive method of trying to force open blocked spots within
the arteries, while bypass surgery involves severing the artery before the
blockage and rerouting the blood flow through an unblocked vein taken from
the leg.
Get Healthy Now by Gary Null, page 411

Recent clinical and laboratory studies have seriously questioned the
validity of the theory that a blocked coronary artery is the primary cause
of a heart attack. The angiogram, an invasive test to evaluate coronary
artery blockages, poses significant risks, and has often been discredited.
In many cases, bypass surgery is considered unnecessary and dangerous.
Healing Myths by Donald M Epstein, page 69

A team of conservative cardiologists in Brigham Hospital, Boston, evaluated
88 patients that had been scheduled for cardiac bypass surgery. They advised
against surgery for 74 of the 88. Among those 74, 60 accepted a second
opinion and didn't have the operation. These patients were followed for a
period of two years plus. Only two had minor attacks that could be treated
conservatively, an outcome comparable to that of the 14 (scared not to take
the advise of the conservative specialists) patients that underwent
open-heart surgery. In short, a vast number of patients are submitted to
unnecessary procedures by cardiologists.
Health In The 21st Century by Fransisco Contreras MD, page 212

A second opinion clinic was opened in Boston in 1982. The first published
study from the clinic involved 88 patients who had been advised to have
cabbage surgery elsewhere on the basis of ordinary angiograms. Some had been
referred by insurance carriers who were hoping to get out of paying some
large bills. Large insurance companies are well aware that about 85 percent
of cabbages are unnecessary, and teach this fact during private seminars for
their executives. However, they don't make this public.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 36

On the brighter side, several studies have confirmed it is possible to
evaluate heart patients with non-invasive means and identify people who will
do well with medical management alone. In the best of all worlds, this
should become the wave of the future. But this will never occur as long as
these crises situations remain under the control of people who are becoming
rich by doing unnecessary surgical procedures.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 39

Three of these studies were published in leading medical journals. No
efforts were made to attract media attention to the embarrassing results. If
the media had picked up the story they could have accurately reported, "The
diagnostic test used to scare the pants off heart disease patients and
coerce them into billions of dollars of unnecessary surgical procedures is a
scam." The information was ignored by physicians and never picked up by the
press.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 14

I have attacked myths about heart disease that cost Americans billions of
dollars per year in unnecessary surgical procedures, as well as untold
suffering. The list of abuses can start with the widespread use of
inaccurate angiograms that are used to plan surgical procedures. People are
conditioned to expect to live longer if they have cabbage surgery, but
survival rates are not improved with surgery. The system encourages doctors
who are learning to do balloon angioplasties to practice on people who don't
need any surgical procedure. Long term survival after balloon angioplasty
has never been studied. The cholesterol theory is an empty shell. These
approaches to our number one killer disease represent a fraud against the
people more often than not.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 161

For example, bypass surgery for heart disease, at an average cost of $44,000
per operation, is "one of the most unnecessary operations of all," says
McTaggart. Heart surgeons have known since the 1970s that bypass does not
improve survival except for patients with severe left ventricle coronary
disease, while U.S. government statistics state that about 90% of patients
receive no benefit. The "miracle cure" of beta blockers to lower high blood
pressure (hypertension) also evaporates when you look at the outcomes,
McTaggart says. A British study of 2,000 patients with high blood pressure
showed that in barely 50% of the cases blood pressure dropped to a
moderately healthy level as a result of taking hypertension drugs.
Heart Disease by Burton Goldberg, page 23

Yet when faced .with heart disease, doctors recommend a bypass. By so doing,
we think, they bypass the real problem. Bypasses are the single most
commonly performed unnecessary surgery in the country. Only two groups have
been shown to benefit from bypass surgery: one, those whose arteries are so
badly clogged that the heart can no longer beat adequately, and two, those
with severe blockage in the main artery to the heart and signs of resulting
poor blood flow.
Ultraprevention by Mark Hyman MD and Mark Liponis MD, page 68

Pierce now knew the research in the field of nonlocal medicine inside and
out. She was amazed that many physicians ignored the evidence. Their
reasons, she suspected, were rooted in the tendency of humans to hang onto
what is familiar and comfortable. Many physicians, for example, continued to
do coronary bypass surgery the old way, opening up the chest cavity, instead
of using the new percutaneous fiberoptic methods that made open-chest
surgery unnecessary.
Reinventing Medicine by Larry Dossey MD, page 184

The departments of health of each state should conduct a study, at least
every two years, on the success of such common operations as bypass surgery
and angioplasty, as does New York State. In addition, they should publish
risk-adjusted figures on breast cancer recovery and other common illnesses,
along with the rates of unnecessary surgery as compiled by an independent
board of surgeons.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 99

Unnecessary Bypass Operations Coronary cirtery bypass operations have had a
better record than the neck artery surgery. Earlier studies of the heart
operation-in 1979,1980, and 1982-also showed some evidence of surgical
mayhem. Fourteen percent of the surgeries were "inappropriate" or
unnecessary, defined as "performing the procedure under circumstances where
the medical risk exceeded the medical benefits." The fourteen percent was
high, but much less than the carotid surgical extravagance. But the
unnecessary rate for bypass operations has now been reduced considerably by
new techniques and better choices by patients.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 189

An outspoken critic is Thomas A. Preston, professor of medicine at the
University of Washington, Seattle. Preston claims fully one half of all
cabbage surgeries performed in the United States are unnecessary. He says
that survival rates are basically the same as with medical management,
except for a well-defined minority of patients, and in most cases cabbage
surgery is no more effective than a placebo.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 32

Race has been found to play a role in who gets cabbaged and who does not.
Nationally the rate of having a cabbage surgery runs 27.1 per 10,000 whites
per year, and only 7.6 per 10,000 blacks. Hospital admission rates for
coronary artery disease for the two races are the same. The authors
concluded that racial prejudice appears to influence cabbage surgery rates.
There is another way of viewing this study. Black people with coronary
artery disease are being spared a lot of unnecessary heart surgery because
of racial discrimination.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 35

These unusual treatments may make open-heart surgery unnecessary for many
heart patients. If your doctor recommends angioplasty or bypass surgery for
your angina, ask him about these new options before making a decision.
Natural Cures And Gentle Medicines by The Editors of FC&A Medical
Publishing, page 23

Unjustified Surgery - Hysterectomy:

Hysterectomy: A hysterectomy (removal of the uterus) is another risk factor
for early osteoporosis, even if the ovaries are still intact. "This is
because anywhere between 16% and 57% of all women who undergo uterus removal
suffer from premature loss of ovarian function with its associated rapid
bone loss," explains Dr. Brown.24 Unfortunately, this surgery, a
conventional medical solution for uterine fibroids and endometriosis, is all
too common among premenopausal women. Every year in the U.S., 750,000 women
undergo hysterectomies (many including ovary removal); about 90% of these
are unnecessary.
Alternative Medicine by Burton Goldberg, page 841

Hysterectomy may also be performed after cesarean section in cases of
complications such as uncontrolled bleeding, gross infection, or cancer of
the cervix. Once misused in the belief that removing the uterus (and often
the ovaries) would control what were considered inappropriate sexual urges
and ambitions, it is still the most common unnecessary surgery.
Britannica Encyclopedia Volume One, page 901

Nearly half of all hysterectomies performed in the United States are
medically unnecessary. According to the People's Medical Society, in 1970
one in twenty babies was delivered by Cesarean section rather than normal
vaginal childbirth. Today, one in four babies is delivered by Cesarean
section. (Interestingly, both surgeries are performed on women.)
How to get out of the hospital alive by Sheldon P Blau MD FACP FACR, page
142

Many people question the fact that over 650,000 hysterectomies are performed
in the United States each year. Very few of these operations are performed
because of a life-threatening situation, and it is likely that many of them
are actually unnecessary. Per capita, half as many hysterectomies are
performed in Great Britain as in the United States, and, statistically,
American women show no health benefits for their higher incidence of
surgery. Outside the United States, very few hysterectomies are performed
for what doctors often term "quality of life" reasons.
Prescription For Nutritional Healing by Phyllis A Balch CNC and James F
Balch MD, page 453

Obviously, despite the shortage of reports from the medical profession
itself, the problem of unnecessary surgeries is still a serious one. Yet,
ironically, unnecessary surgery normally is not considered medical
malpractice. According to "Medicine on Trial," a People's Medical Society
book: "When greed controls the impulse to operate when an operation is not
called for, as is often the case in unnecessary surgery, such an operation
is certainly a grossly unethical and immoral act, but not a medical mistake
per se." The ultimate solution is prevention. But when, as a last resort,
surgery must be considered, patients need to have full and honest
information about the risks and benefits involved in the procedure.
Under The Influence Modern Medicine by Terry A Rondberg DC, page 132

UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF MODERN MEDICINE lions of unnecessary hysterectomies
yet it is still the most frequent surgical procedure inflicted on females.
Under The Influence Modern Medicine by Terry A Rondberg DC, page 128

She also found that patients play a part in unnecessary surgery. When they
voiced objections to a hysterectomy for such conditions as painful fibroids,
doctors tended to change their opinion that the operation was necessary.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 182

One of the most outspoken critics of unnecessary surgery is Dr. Sidney Wolfe
of Public Citizen. "If a doctor immediately says, 'Have a hysterectomy/ shop
for a new physician," he suggests. "You need tests to write off all the
alternatives."
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 181

Unwarranted Surgery - Cesarean Section:

In 2001, Cesarean section is still the most common OB/GYN surgical
procedure. Approximately 4 million births occur annually, with a 24%
C-Section rate, i.e., 960,000 operations. In the Netherlands only 8% of
babies are delivered by Cesarean section. Assuming human babies are similar
in the U.S. and in the Netherlands, we are performing 640,000 unnecessary
C-Sections in the U.S. with its three to four times higher mortality and 20
times greater morbidity than vaginal delivery.105
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 25

Research has indicated that cesarean sections, as well as being associated
with greater risks to mother and infant, are often unnecessary.
Get Healthy Now by Gary Null, page 706

Unnecessary surgery referred to the modern rash of cesareans as a "surgical
epidemic." Calling on understatement, the American College of Obstetricians
and Gynecologists admits that C-sections "are more common than they should
be." An actual estimate, made by the Centers for Disease Control, says that
349,000 of the cesarean surgeries were unnecessary. This is a serious
situation. The operation is major surgery, and when inappropriate, carries
two to four times greater risk to the mother than normal vaginal birth.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 184

This is a serious situation. The operation is major surgery, and when
inappropriate, carries two to four times greater risk to the mother than
normal vaginal birth. Public Citizen, which puts out a regular report on the
rate of C-sections, believes the surgery is done almost twice as often as
medically indicated, at a cost of an extra $1.3 billion and unnecessary pain
and injury.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 184

Just as one surgical operation-like tonsillectomy-is shot down by
intelligent criticism, another, like C-section, rises to take its place in
the inventory of often unnecessary surgeries. It is now up to the
profession-or if forced, the states-to stop the excess cutting stimulated by
either greed, medical fashion, or ignorance. That is the only way to protect
the unknowing patient public. Chapter VI
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 191

Women who have their babies without CNMs are also more likely to be denied
room to walk around during labor to ease their discomfort, more likely to be
denied the use of a bath or shower during their labor, and more likely to
undergo unnecessary cesarean surgery.
Under The Influence Modern Medicine by Terry A Rondberg DC, page 125

Multiple Types of Surgery Mentioned:

In 1985 the U.S. Senate's Special Committee on Aging found that unnecessary
operations (most for hernias, hemorrhoids, gallstones, enlarged prostates,
heart disease and similar conditions), far from helping patients were
actually shortening their lives and wasting money - billions of dollars. The
committee found that operations increased 130 percent after Medicare went
into effect. The American College of Surgeons and the American surgical
Association suggested that 30 percent of the millions of operations being
performed each year were unnecessary with 50 percent of the remaining
procedures beneficial but not essential to save or extend the patient's
life. In all, it was thought that the needless and dubious operations were
causing an unnecessary thirty thousand deaths per year. The unnecessary
expenses and deaths become noticeable when doctors are in short supply or go
on strike. In such cases the death rate in an area can drop remarkably -
much to the embarrassment of the medical community (when the facts can't be
covered up).
Attaining Medical Self Sufficiency An Informed Citizens Guide by Duncan
Long, page 9

1974: 2.4 million unnecessary surgeries performed annually resulting in
11,900 deaths at an annual cost of $3.9 billion. 2001: 7.5 million
unnecessary surgical procedures resulting in 37,136 deaths at a cost of $122
billion (using 1974 dollars). It's very difficult to obtain accurate
statistics when studying unnecessary surgery. Dr. Leape in 1989 wrote that
perhaps 30% of controversial surgeries are unnecessary. Controversial
surgeries include Cesarean section, tonsillectomy, appendectomy,
hysterectomy, gastrectomy for obesity, breast implants, and elective breast
implants.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 19

Myriad of reasons-mix-up of X rays and patient charts, surgeons' haste to
"beat their time" doing a procedure, poorly trained surgeons, and
unnecessary surgeries, especially hysterectomies (nearly half are
unnecessary), coronary bypass operations (one out of every three may be
unnecessary), and Cesarean sections. In addition, the area of the country in
which you live plays an important part in the type of surgery you will
undergo.
How to get out of the hospital alive by Sheldon P Blau MD FACP FACR, page
140

Hysterectomies. American Health also reported in April 1993 that the chance
that a woman in Maine will undergo a hysterectomy varies from 20% to 70%,
depending on where in the state she lives. Local preference, not science,
explains the disparity. In general, the reason for most hysterectomies is to
resolve symptoms related to benign uterine fibroids. New studies show that
if they aren't causing any serious and immediate symptoms, surgery is
unnecessary. Cesarean sections. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control
reported that in 1991 some 349,900 unnecessary cesarean sections were
performed, at a cost of more than $1 billion. The rate skyrocketed from
10.4% of births in 1975 to 24.5% in 1988. Again, the issue isn't just money,
although $ 1 billion would pay for a lot of health care for those who don't
have it. Surgery can lead to infections and longer hospital stays.
The Consumer Bible by Mark Green, page 70

On the other hand, studies show that particular areas of the country as well
as specific hospitals within a community often are more likely to perform
operations that may be unnecessary-such as tonsillectomies, hysterectomies,
and cesareans-than others. If you're assigned to a particular physician's
group or hospital where the standard of care mandates surgery rather than
more conservative treatment, demand a second opinion.
How to get out of the hospital alive by Sheldon P Blau MD FACP FACR, page
194

Myringotomies are currently being performed on nearly 1,000,000 American
children each year. It appears that the unnecessary surgery of the past, the
tonsillectomy, has been replaced by this new procedure. In fact there is a
direct correlation between the decline of the tonsillectomy and the rise of
the myringotomy. Over 2 million myringotomy tubes are inserted into
children's ears each year, along with 600,000 tonsillectomies and
adenoidectomies. These surgeries are unnecessary for most children.
Textbook of Natural Medicine Volumes 1-2 by Joseph E Pizzorno and Michael T
Murray, page 1465

Unjustified Surgery due to Back Pain:

Unnecessary surgery waxes and wanes. First one operation, like
tonsillectomy, is in fashion, then another, like C-sections. The most recent
"in" technique is "back surgery."
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 184

A forceful critic of much back surgery is Dr. Richard A. Deyo, professor at
the University of Washington School of Medicine. He points out that most low
back pain is caused by a simple muscle strain, which over time heals itself.
It is not, he says, usually caused by herniated disks in the spine, which
are the target of most surgeries. Dr. Deyo estimates that "diskectomy," the
name of such surgery, is performed on 300,000 people a year, and is often a
wasteful, unnecessary activity. A diskectomy involves cutting through the
bony parts of the vertebrae to remove the jellylike substance inside. The
reason is that in herniated disks, the substance protrudes, putting pressure
on the nerves.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 185

Dr. Deyo, writing in the journal Spine, says America is undergoing an
unnecessary back surgery epidemic of such proportions that surgeons here
perform diskectomies forty percent more often than other Western nations and
five times more often than in England and Scotland. It also appears that the
number of back surgeries relates directly to the number of appropriate
surgeons available in the nation according to population. In the same
publication, Dr. Deyo and others also studied hospitalization for back pain
and found that from 1979 to 1990, nonsurgical hospitalizations decreased
dramatically. Meanwhile, admissions for surgery increased.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 185

Orthopedic doctors, who specialize in injuries related to the muscles,
joints, bones, tendons, and ligaments, are often inexperienced with
conservative methods of treatment and are sometimes too willing to engage in
unnecessary surgery. The problem is that surgery has limited long-range
benefits and is completely unnecessary for many lower back pain sufferers.
When confronted with pain caused by a factor that does not show up on an X
ray, an orthopedist will generally refer the patient to another
professional. If you are going to an orthopedic specialist for advice on
back pain, it is recommended that you see one who does not reflexively
advocate surgery or prolonged reliance on prescription drugs.
Complete Encyclopedia Of Natural Healing by Gary Null PhD, page 63

In 2001, the top 50 medical and surgical procedures totaled approximately
41.8 million. These figures were taken from the Healthcare Cost and
Utilization Project within the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality.
Using 17.6% from the 1974 U.S. Congressional House Subcommittee Oversight
Investigation as the percentage of unnecessary surgical procedures, and
extrapolating from the death rate in 1974, we come up with an unnecessary
procedure number of 7.5 million (7,489,718) and a death rate of 37,136, at a
cost of $122 billion (using 1974 dollars). Researchers performed a very
similar analysis, using the 1974 'unnecessary surgery percentage' of 17.6,
on back surgery. In 1995, researchers testifying before the Department of
Veterans Affairs estimated that of 250,000 back surgeries in the U.S. at a
hospital cost of $11,000 per patient, the total number of unnecessary back
surgeries each year in the U.S. could approach 44,000, costing as much as
$484 million.
Death By Medicine by Gary Null PhD, page 19

They studied the surgical treatment for the common complaint of "low back
pain," and concluded that most of the operations were unnecessary. In fact,
says the agency, the less treatment for these pains, surgical or medical,
the better. A report in the New England Journal of Medicine, for instance,
decried the use of corticosteroids as risky and of little value. The
evidence, says the federal agency, shows that regular activity rather than
bed rest reduces the chances of developing a chronic condition that leads to
surgery.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 186

The findings of the MRIs are often misleading and lead to "unnecessary
surgery and the results are not very good," Froymeyer said. Another expert,
Robert Boyd, M.D., an orthopedic surgeon at Massachusetts General Hospital
in Boston, said, "surgery doesn't put new backs in and it doesn't give
better long-term results. It is indicated when pain doesn't respond to
conservative treatment and is clearly associated with nerve root
compression. Then the results of surgery are excellent." But only a small
percentage of people with back pain fall into this category, according to
Boyd.
The Miracle Of MSM by Stanley W Jacob, page 102

Unwarranted Surgery due to Results of Mammography:

Mammograms Add to Cancer Risk-Mammography exposes the breast to damaging
ionizing radiation. High Rate of False Positives-Mammography's high rate of
false-positive test results wastes money and creates unnecessary emotional
trauma. A Swedish study of 60,000 women, aged 40-64, who were screened for
breast cancer revealed that of the 726 actually referred to oncologists for
treatment, 70% were found to be cancer free. According to The Lancet, of the
5% of mammograms that suggest further testing, up to 93% are false
positives. The Lancet report further noted that because the great majority
of positive screenings are false positives, these inaccurate results lead to
many unnecessary biopsies and other invasive surgical procedures. In fact,
70% to 80% of all positive mammograms do not, on biopsy, show any presence
of cancer. According to some estimates, 90% of these "callbacks" result from
unclear readings due to dense overlying breast tissue. High Rate of False
Negatives-Mammography also produces a high rate of false-negative test
results. While false
Alternative Medicine by Burton Goldberg, page 588

Breast Cancer type of abnormality found and the age of the woman. Usually
the follow-up tests begin with the least invasive methods, such as an
ultrasound or second mammogram, and progress, if necessary, to the more
invasive methods, such as a needle or surgical biopsy. A biopsy should spare
the tissue, removing just enough tissue to make a diagnosis without being
unnecessarily invasive. A woman should not rush from one abnormal screening
mammogram or clinical breast exam to a major, invasive surgical procedure or
to treatment for breast cancer. Following the series of tests outlined below
can ensure that the diagnosis is correct and assist in avoiding unnecessary
procedures.
Disease Prevention And Treatment by Life Extension Foundation, page 30

Early detection is currently one of the primary strategies for prevention
and successful treatment, which is why the breast self-exam is so important.
The benefits of mammography are still a subject of debate. Questions that
are still present include whether low-level radiation used in the test can
contribute to cancer, whether equivocal results lead to unnecessary surgery,
and the accuracy rate of test results.
Treating Cancer With Herbs by Michael Tierra ND, page 467

Equivocal mammogram results lead to unnecessary surgery, and the accuracy
rate of mammograms is poor. According to the National Cancer Institute
(NCI), in women ages 40-49, there is a high rate of "missed tumors,"
resulting in 40% false-negative mammogram results. Breast tissue in younger
women is denser, which makes it more difficult to detect tumors, and tumors
grow more quickly in younger women, so cancer may develop between
screenings.
Alternative Medicine by Burton Goldberg, page 973

Corruption and Unjustified Surgery ($):

Doctors and hospitals are paid more for doing more, largely without regard
for evidence of improved health outcomes (examples are the rapid increase in
the number of MRI machines, excess capacity for neonatology and invasive
cardiac procedures that lead to excess use, and the approximately 12,000
deaths that occur each year as the result of unnecessary surgery). Health
care providers that deliver high quality, efficient care are financially
penalized for not delivering a higher volume of more intensive services,
beneficial or not (referred to as the "perverse incentive").
Overdosed America by John Abramson MD, page 256

We could do much more to lower costs, such as practicing scientifically
based medicine, but it's like combating an epidemic. There is such a strong
incentive, as with the pharmaceutical industry and surgical subspecialists,
to keep prices-and profits or incomes-high. It will likely require a major
change in how we organize health care in America to effect any meaningful
change. If we were really to practice scientifically based medicine, the
cost savings would be great. We order and do so many unnecessary tests and
procedures, and our prescribing patterns are illogical and expensive.
Health Care Meltdown by Robert H Lebow MD, page 57

Most health problems are not emergencies. To treat them as though they were
chronic, recurrent emergencies, which is the way medicine is often practiced
today, is costly, time consuming and generally ineffective. It causes many
problems, often more than it relieves, and these are sometimes deadly. Side
effects of medications kill more people annually than automobile accidents.
Unnecessary surgery (heart disease and other conditions) has significant
mortality while it also drives up health care costs. This approach to health
care also takes the power and responsibility for your health out of your
control.
The Vitamin Revolution by Michael Janson, page 200

Clinical care, which was improving, is now being subject to new rules,
systems, and regulations from the outside, which punish both good medicine
and good doctors. Surgery is still too often unnecessary. Medical fraud,
always a small problem, has become near epidemic. American hospitals are
adrift, struggling against empty beds, fierce competition, and massive
confusion.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 254

Surgery is similarly a vastly lucrative practice, acting as the third
financial mooring in the tripod of cancer treatments. The more radical the
operation, the more costly. Since surgeons are rewarded monetarily for the
magnitude of their handiwork, excess becomes a perverse incentive for
financial success. The amount of unnecessary surgery is high. As early as
1953, Dr. Paul Hawley, director of the American College of Surgeons, stated
matter-of-factly in an interview in U.S. News and World Report, "You'd be
shocked, I think-we are-at the amount of unnecessary surgery that is
performed." The reason, according to Hawley? "Money."
When Healing Becomes A Crime by Kenny Ausubel, page 268

This truth has been deliberately concealed from the general public.
According to Dr. Gould, the reason for this conspiracy of silence is money.
The public must continue to see the cancer establishment as a winner to
continue providing money. One of the quoted scientists said that, with tens
of thousands of radiologists and millions of dollars in equipment, one still
gives radiation treatment even if study after study shows that it does more
harm than good. Dr. Gould says patients who could be comfortable without
medical treatment until their inevitable death are made miserable with
medical treatment in a pointless attempt to postpone death for a few unhappy
weeks. Of course, that is when most of the money is being made. Dr. Gould
says doctors poison their patients with drugs and rays and mutilate them
with unnecessary surgery in a desperate attempt to treat the untreatable.
The Natural Way to Heal by Walter Last, page 320

Unnecessary surgery: With appendicitis produced only two "false positives,"
patients who did not have the disease. This is in contrast to the twenty
percent proven to have healthy appendixes after surgery. The technique,
called "Focused Appendix CT" or FACT, could eliminate this type of
unnecessary surgery-at least in the hands of honest surgeons. Unlike other
doctors, surgeons are not content to live on forty dollars per patient
visit. Many still see the operating table as a chance for the brass ring-the
new SL600 Mercedes coupe for $139,000, or even the down payment on a piece
of land in Southampton or Malibu.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 180

Miscellaneous (tonsils/adenoids, prostatectomy, cancer, carotid
endarterectomy, mastectomy etc):

Rufer and her husband sued Abbott Laboratories, UWMC, and the cancer
specialist who treated her. UWMC and the doctor argued that they had relied
on the Abbott test results. Abbott denied all responsibility, even though
the literature distributed with its tests made no mention of the potential
for false positives. What's more, according to a court opinion, it turned
out that "Abbott also had access to reports that false positive results on
its assay led to unnecessary cancer treatment before 1998. It received over
forty complaints of false positives, including multiple complaints of
unnecessary chemotherapy and surgery before Jennifer Rufer's first treatment
in April 1998.
Critical condition by Donald L Barlett and James B Steele, page 63

Although it embraces new technology, the medical profession has a tendency
to reject new ideas. Surgeons are willing to learn new ways of performing
operations, although few seem eager to examine possible alternatives to
surgery. Much of this can of course be explained by the fact that research
into surgery is normally performed by surgeons. Their training and
experience does not lend itself to looking into other options. Cardiac
surgeons, for instance, would be unlikely to work at a project that would
prove that most heart operations are unnecessary or dangerous. That
conclusion would not only put their livelihood at risk, but also invalidate
their entire vocation. The only people in the operating room who have a
clear reason for wanting the truth are the patients on the tables. But if we
wait until that moment to learn the truth, it might be too late.
Under The Influence Modern Medicine by Terry A Rondberg DC, page 131

Anesthesiologists benefit from bypass surgery. In medical slang
anesthesiologists are called gas passers. Anesthesiologists use measured
amounts of poisons to put surgical patients to sleep and, hopefully, wake
them up. They bill patients by the hour. Each cabbage case may take about
two to three hours of their time. They have nothing to do with the decision
to do surgery, but you don't hear any of them making waves by complaining
about unnecessary surgery. To do so would jeopardize their standing in the
anesthesia department and their livelihoods.
Heart Frauds by Charles T McGee MD, page 53

About 300,000 men per year have surgery to correct enlarged prostates, but
many of those surgeries may be unnecessary. There are many natural remedies
that you can find in health food stores that will shrink your prostate, if
BPH is the cause. (Note: Only a doctor can tell the difference between BPH
and prostate cancer, so get a firm diagnosis before you go ahead with
natural remedies).
Proven Health Tips Encyclopedia By American Medical Publishing, page 136

But religious considerations aside, circumcision has caught on among
non-Jews in the United States. The operation has been the center of a
medical debate: Does it provide health benefits, or is it unnecessary
surgery?
Healthcare Online for Dummies by Howard and Judi Wolinsky, page 200

Surgery has come under increasing criticism in recent years for a number of
other reasons. Some doctors and patients hold that much cancer surgery is
either unnecessary or excessive in its scope. The fiercest argument has
taken place over the question of breast cancer, but the issues raised in
this debate appear applicable to other forms of cancer as well.
The Cancer Industry by Ralph W Moss, page 49

Surgery is unnecessary when the risk is greater than the benefit, or when
there is no strong evidence that the surgery will benefit most of the people
operated on.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 186

Going under the knife. One explanation for high U.S. medical costs is that
so much surgery is unnecessary. Ask for a plain-English explanation of the
need for and alternatives to any surgery.
The Hope of Living Cancer Free by Francisco Contreras MD, page 114

The innocuous behavior of recurring tumors is a mystery. Some surgeons think
that leaving a few cancerous cells to roam about after surgery is a deadly
mistake. Others believe that these cells simply turn into tumors that can be
removed without threatening the life of the patient. Still, many leaders in
the field of oncological surgery, either out of fear or arrogance, continue
to demand that more studies be conducted before modifying the traditional
treatments. How many patients will become the innocent victims of this
irrational posturing? The same tendencies have also been observed in other
types of tumors. For example, sarcomas are tumors that generally form from
muscle or fat in the extremities. Treatment of them always consists of an
extensive amputation followed by radiation therapy, with the object of
reducing the incidence of recurrence. After reviewing the experiences of
numerous hospitals, one concludes that "a reduction of local recurrence does
not mean a betterment of average life expectancy in the long run." In other
words, the frightening mutilations are entirely unnecessary. The same
conclusions can be applied to melanoma a very aggressive skin cancer, which
is generally treated with excessively radical surgery.
Health In The 21st Century by Fransisco Contreras MD, page 196

The indiscriminate, and often unnecessary, surgical removal of these glands
does not solve the underlying immunological problem that caused them to be
swollen and diseased in the first place. Often, after a short period of
improvement, it leads to chronic allergy problems. If the microorganisms get
past the tonsils and adenoids, ciliated microfilaments lining the upper
passages of the lungs remove them in secreted phlegm; they do this in a
wavelike fashion, much like firemen of an earlier time on a bucket brigade.
Viral Immunity by J.E, page 90

The common carotid endarterectomy surgery is designed to prevent a
full-fledged stroke. But is it often overused and unnecessary, especially
when there is insufficient diagnosis.
The Medical Racket by Martin L Gross, page 187

In fact, because of the high potential for false positive readings-where
people are told they have cancer when they don't-screening may only be
increasing the number of patients mutilated through unnecessary drug
treatment or surgery.
The Cancer Handbook by Lynne McTaggart, page 12

Doctors differ considerably in their approval of this "nontreatment."
Naturally the more surgery-prone physicians lean in the direction of early
removal of the prostate, while the more conservative ones tell us that for
any man whose life expectancy is less than 10 years, the surgery may offer
only unnecessary discomfort and incapacity.
The Prostate Cure by Harry G Preuss MD and Brenda D Adderly MHA, page 184

Alvsborg County Council felt the costs of a mass-screening program far
outweighed any benefits, and that the money saved could be better spent
helping those diagnosed with cancer. The council voted for the ban,
following advice from the county's chief physician, Dr. Christer Enkvist,
who felt that the advantages of screening are "extremely marginal" and can
lead to unnecessary surgery.
The Cancer Handbook by Lynne McTaggart, page 60
JanDrew - 23 May 2008 06:13 GMT
>smarter

DTABOR'S

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t-September 7, 2004" <M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t
09-07...@lambercartel.com>

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 10, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
07-10...@lymbercartel.com>

From: M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 30, 2004
(M.a.r.k_P.r.o.b.e.r.t_04-30...@limbercartel.com)

Newsgroups: alt.support.cerebral-palsy, misc.handicap
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
06-11...@lombercartel.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:24 GMT
JOHN - 23 May 2008 07:01 GMT
On May 22, 9:57 am, "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Orac. He isn't my Oracle mate, sorry.

Never said he was. However, he is a heck of a lot smarter than you,
and documents his articles with reality based facts, not the jibberish
you use.

Orac=Allopath http://whale.to/a/allopathy_h.html

Nuff said
Mark Probert - 23 May 2008 13:33 GMT
> On May 22, 9:57 am, "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Nuff said

For the non-thinking, of course it is "Nuff said." For those who can
actually think, and that does not include you, there is much more.
Citizen Jimserac - 23 May 2008 13:49 GMT
> > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> For the non-thinking, of course it is "Nuff said." For those who can
> actually think, and that does not include you, there is much more.

Excuse me Valdeprobert, but John has posted links
and offered REASONS for his opinions.
You and others in this newsgroup offer
NOTHING but assertions.  Nothing.
The link that John gave indicates
that standard medicine itself
does not even come CLOSE to the
standards of proof demanded of alternative
medicine.

You apply standards of proof
that are never EVER applied to vaccines,
standard medicine surgical procedures,
standard medicine drugs and use this
innuendo in denialism of all alternative
medicine.

You accept WITHOUT QUESTION the propaganda
repeated often from every quarter that
vaccines work and do what they are supposed
to without harming the vast majority
of people that get them, as I did until recently.
Without QUESTION!  And I know
you are not gullible and have a healthy
scepticism -> why not APPLY it there too.

You forget to mention that YOU
yourself had acupuncture and benefited
from it (or so I believe you said in an earlier post) and that it is
regarded
as an "alternative" system of medicine.

If you are interested in REAL RESEARCH,
from REAL SCIENTISTS, then by all means
go to THIS link and read the 32 page
research paper there about the structure
of water.
http://www.rustumroy.com/structure%20of%20water.htm

Hey, it's just research, it does not prove anything yet but that's
what life is about, learning, research, discovery.  It's not about
denialism, or blocking
the research because it does not "seem" right or because some
entrenched commercial interests
want to kill it all off once and for all
and be assured of NO COMPETITION.

Citizen Jimserac
Who did I just respond to?
Can he "prove" that he exists.
Mark Probert - 23 May 2008 22:59 GMT
> > > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> You accept WITHOUT QUESTION the propaganda

Not propaganda, but factual information. And, I came to that
conclusion by questioning it, and having a knowledge of science.

> repeated often from every quarter that
> vaccines work and do what they are supposed

I have seen how people can benefit from vaccination with my own eyes.

I have also seen how people can be harmed by lack of vaccination.

> to without harming the vast majority
> of people that get them

That is utter bullshit. If the "vast majority" are harmed then 90% of
the US populace under the age of 21 would be harmed. You are full of
sh.t.

> , as I did until recently.

I laughed at your "proof".  You are one of the mist scientifically
illiterate posters in this group.

> Without QUESTION!  And I know
> you are not gullible and have a healthy
> scepticism -> why not APPLY it there too.

I have, and have reached my conclusions accordingly. I use logic,
knowledge and reality. Try it.

> You forget to mention that YOU
> yourself had acupuncture and benefited
> from it (or so I believe you said in an earlier post) and that it is
> regarded
> as an "alternative" system of medicine.

Nope. Not me. I do use chiropractic care, though, on the
recommendation of a physiatrist.

> If you are interested in REAL RESEARCH,
> from REAL SCIENTISTS, then by all means
> go to THIS link and read the 32 page
> research paper there about the structure
> of water.http://www.rustumroy.com/structure%20of%20water.htm

I failed to find real research.

> Hey, it's just research, it does not prove anything yet but that's
> what life is about, learning, research, discovery.  It's not about
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> want to kill it all off once and for all
> and be assured of NO COMPETITION.

Strawman.
Citizen Jimserac - 23 May 2008 23:27 GMT
> On May 23, 8:49 am, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> That is utter bullshit. If the "vast majority" are harmed then 90% of
> the US populace under the age of 21 would be harmed.

They WERE and ARE harmed.  Check the disease
statistics. Check the rise in autism.
RETHINK your position before jumping
to a conclusion which has been indoctrinated
into you.

Citizen Jimserac
Mark Probert - 29 May 2008 13:56 GMT
> > On May 23, 8:49 am, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> They WERE and ARE harmed.

So you say, but fail to prove. I do not expect you to be able to prove
that claim for several reasons:

1. There is no proof of that claim.
2. You are a poor researcher.

> Check the disease
> statistics. Check the rise in autism.

Interesting that you bring that up. I *HAVE* studied the so called
rise in autism quite extensively. In order to facilitate those
studies, I went and learned some statistics (never one of my strong
suits) and epidemiology.

There are several reasons why an uncritical thinker, such as yourself,
would believe the lies of the anti-vaccination purveyors of disease,
disability and death.

First, the criteria for a diagnosis of Autism has boradly expanded
over the past 20+ years, with the realization that Autism is a
spectrum disorder ranging from mild to severe. That accounts for part
of the apparent increase.

Second, there has been significant diagnostic re-assignment. This
means that some of those people who were diagnosed with "mental
retardation" or schizophernia years ago are no correctly being
diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders. This explains two of the
bogus claims of the anti-vaccinationists, i.e., that there are few
adult autistics and that there is an increase.

Third, in the late 1980's, and especially in 1991, schools, under
IDEA, were mandated to actually look into why Johnny Can't Learn. Once
that happened, there was more of a reason for an increase.

Now, move forward to today. Kids are now receiving the same number of
vaccines that they received in the late 1990's, now without
Thimerosal, and the numbers keep going up and up. One would think that
there would have been either a drop in diagnosis if Thimerosal was the
cause, or a leveling off if vaccinations were the cause. Neither
happened, thus vaccines are not the culprit in Autism.

> RETHINK your position before jumping
> to a conclusion which has been indoctrinated
> into you.

No one indoctrinated me in any way. I reached my conclusions after
using an open mind, knowledge, and study. If you want to think that I
was indictrinated, feel free to do so, but, it merely proves that you
are an a.shole.

Now, go get yourself a real education, and do not take courses at the
University of Google.
Jan Drew - 30 May 2008 02:45 GMT
"Mark Probert" <mark.probert@gmail.com> wrote  

> a.shole.
Jan Drew - 25 May 2008 07:47 GMT
On May 23, 8:49 am, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 23, 8:33 am, Mark Probert <mark.prob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> You accept WITHOUT QUESTION the propaganda

Not propaganda, but factual information. And, I came to that
conclusion by questioning it, and having a knowledge of science.

Demonstrated to be a lie.
Orac nose nuttin.

> repeated often from every quarter that
> vaccines work and do what they are supposed

I have seen how people can benefit from vaccination with my own eyes.

OOps, *anecdotes are pure bullshit. Mark Probert*

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/msg/b47238df12888f43

Anecdotes are not facts. They are, at best interesting stories. At
worst, outright lies.

I have also seen how people can be harmed by lack of vaccination.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/msg/b47238df12888f43

Anecdotes are not facts. They are, at best interesting stories. At
worst, outright lies.

> to without harming the vast majority
> of people that get them

That is utter bullshit. If the "vast majority" are harmed then 90% of
the US populace under the age of 21 would be harmed. You are full of
sh.t.

*I read Torah everyday*  Mark Probert

> , as I did until recently.

I laughed at your "proof".  You are one of the mist scientifically
illiterate posters in this group.

*I read Torah everyday*  Mark Probert

> Without QUESTION! And I know
> you are not gullible and have a healthy
> scepticism -> why not APPLY it there too.

I have, and have reached my conclusions accordingly. I use logic,
knowledge and reality. Try it.

lol.  knowledge and reality..

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t-September 7, 2004" <M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t
09-07...@lambercartel.com>

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 10, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
07-10...@lymbercartel.com>

From: M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 30, 2004
(M.a.r.k_P.r.o.b.e.r.t_04-30...@limbercartel.com)

Newsgroups: alt.support.cerebral-palsy, misc.handicap
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
06-11...@lombercartel.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:24 GMT

> You forget to mention that YOU
> yourself had acupuncture and benefited
> from it (or so I believe you said in an earlier post) and that it is
> regarded
> as an "alternative" system of medicine.

Nope. Not me. I do use chiropractic care, though, on the
recommendation of a physiatrist.

> If you are interested in REAL RESEARCH,
> from REAL SCIENTISTS, then by all means
> go to THIS link and read the 32 page
> research paper there about the structure
> of water.http://www.rustumroy.com/structure%20of%20water.htm

I failed to find real research.

You also failed as an attorney.
Next.

> Hey, it's just research, it does not prove anything yet but that's
> what life is about, learning, research, discovery. It's not about
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> want to kill it all off once and for all
> and be assured of NO COMPETITION.

Strawman.

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Strawman
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Jan Drew - 25 May 2008 07:32 GMT
"Mark S Probert"  Merrick, NY.

Did NOT read Torah again today.

He LIED.
David Wright - 23 May 2008 13:41 GMT
>On May 22, 9:57 am, "JOHN" <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...