Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008
Acupuncture in the USAF
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The One True Zhen Jue - 17 May 2008 20:32 GMT Note that the two MD's here are just two of the forty MD's the USAF has on staff that are trained as L.Ac's. Results? Pretty darn good!
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,164071,00.html
Battlefield Acupuncture Introduced Air Force Print News | March 14, 2008 LANDSTUHL REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER, Germany - A medical procedure dating back thousands of years was introduced to patients and medical staff for one week in March at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center.
A limited form of acupuncture, called battlefield acupuncture, was introduced to LRMC doctors who applied the procedure to war-wounded servicemembers and local patients for pain relief, and often with significant results.
Major (Dr.) Conner Nguyen was exposed to acupuncture as both a patient and physician and was equally impressed in both roles. As a patient, Major Nguyen experienced 25 percent increased range of motion and a 50 percent reduction in pain for chronic shoulders and upper back pain he endured for several years.
As a pain physician specialist at LRMC, Major Nguyen recruited his most challenging patients with whom traditional pain treatment offered limited relief. Within minutes of the short golden studs inserted on their ears, many said they enjoyed a pain reduction of up to 75 percent.
A reduction of 25 percent would be considered a success with traditional pain medications, Major Nguyen said. In one case, a patient broke into tears when the severe pain he had been suffering from for more than a year subsided within moments.
When the military acupuncturists who introduced battlefield acupuncture return to conduct the follow-up certification training required to practice ancient form of medicine, Major Nguyen will be among the list of LRMC physicians desiring to add acupuncture as another tool in their medical kit.
"It allows a provider like me to confidently complete a treatment and expect a good result within minutes," Major Nguyen said. Other advantages he noted are virtually no significant complications, patients are subjected to little or no discomfort, and immediate results that can be "quite spectacular sometimes."
Major Nguyen received his interim hands-on training during the weeklong visit by Col. (Dr.) Stephen Burns and Col. (Dr.) Richard Niemtzow, two of the 40 Department of Defense doctors trained as a licensed acupuncturist.
Colonel Niemtzow developed and named the battlefield acupuncture technique in 2001. It is a radical departure from classical Chinese, French and German ear acupuncture. He said he realized its possible military value and the events of the World Trade Center influenced him to name it battlefield acupuncture.
As an Air Force acupuncturist, Colonel Niemtzow has trained hundreds of his military counterparts. Battlefield acupuncture focuses on locations on the ear that he said have been known for hundreds of years as effective areas for pain control. The ear is also practical because it can be readily accessed whether on the battlefield or in a hospital bed.
Acupuncture can also be a practical means for treating pain in the military, he said, in instances such as a Soldier who develops a migraine headache at the onset of a mission. Where pain medication could cloud the mind and compromise the mission, acupuncture could offer long-lasting relief within minutes.
Introducing acupuncture to doctors trained in traditional Western medicine often meets with raised eyebrows, but the reception is warming.
"In the beginning, many people were skeptical, but after seeing it demonstrated on patients and the benefits achieved -- especially in the area of pain -- the majority of physicians embraced it and learned how to use it in their practice as an adjunctive therapy," said Colonel Niemtzow, who is the consultant for alternative and complimentary medicine to the Air Force surgeon general.
The ancient form of medicine was readily received at LRMC, said Col. (Dr.) Stephen Princiotta, the deputy commander for clinical services here.
"The doctors who saw it in action and heard about it have been very excited about the opportunity to add acupuncture as an adjunctive therapy to what we already have been able to accomplish with western medicine," Colonel Princiotta said.
One LRMC doctor previously trained under Colonel Niemtzow as well as well attending the Helms Medical Institute at the University of California in Los Angeles for an additional 300 hours of acupuncture training. Maj. (Dr.) Teri Simpson is an anesthesiologist by trade, but uses acupuncture one day a week at the LRMC pain clinic with great success.
"I love it," Major Simpson said. "It can be life-changing when the patient responds immediately and looks at you like you're a magician."
Major Simpson said she tells them she doesn't completely understand how it works but is always happy to see a patient break into a smile who was in misery only minutes before.
In addition to using the small studs that resemble a small pierced earring, Major Simpson uses the longer needles more commonly associated with acupuncture. The frequency of application and the duration of relief vary with each patient, but treatment can progress from about two times a week to as little as once a month or longer. In some cases, further acupuncture treatment may not be required.
Acupuncture doesn't work for all of her patients; however. About 15 percent do not respond to acupuncture, Major Simpson said, but of the patients that do, their pain reduction often averages about 75 percent.
One of those patients was Army Spc. Bradley Phillips, an Army scout whose back pain while deployed to Iraq increased to the point where he required treatment at LRMC. Specialist Phillips, a 21 year old with the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment out of Fort Hood, Texas, had successfully received acupuncture treatment before by an Army medic and enthusiastically agreed to for the opportunity to be a part of the battle acupuncture program.
Specialist Phillips said he preferred acupuncture because it allowed him to avoid taking pain medications and their side effects. As Major Simpson applied two studs in his left ear and five in his right, as well as a few probes into his lower back with a longer needle, Specialist Phillips' pain slowly eased away.
"While I'm just standing here I feel a lot better," he said. In addition, the young Soldier edged the closest he'd been to touching his toes in six months.
For Senior Airman Jillian Sandbothe, traditional pain medication could never ease the headaches and upper back pain resulting from whiplash caused by a rear-end collision last April.
"It was amazing," she said of her initial acupuncture treatment that provided total relief from her headache. "I couldn't believe it the first time it happened. I could almost function like a normal person again."
Studs used for battlefield acupuncture barely penetrate the skin and fall out in about three days. When that occurred, her headaches returned and Airman Sandbothe arrived at the LRMC pain clinic for follow-up treatment. As before, the pain diminished as Simpson plied her acupuncture craft.
"I don't know how it works and I don't really care as long it keeps working," said Airman Sandbothe, who is assigned to the 52nd Component Maintenance Squadron at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany.
JanDrew - 17 May 2008 22:56 GMT <Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7805baad-601d-4402-bd1a-c8d2813581b7@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Note that the two MD's here are just two of the forty MD's the USAF > has on staff that are trained as L.Ac's. Results? Pretty darn good! [quoted text clipped - 148 lines] > working," said Airman Sandbothe, who is assigned to the 52nd Component > Maintenance Squadron at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany. Which makes Quack Barrett a liar.
Richard Schultz - 18 May 2008 06:52 GMT : Note that the two MD's here are just two of the forty MD's the USAF : has on staff that are trained as L.Ac's. Results? Pretty darn good! Why do you refuse to respond to, or even acknowledge, the studies that I posted that showed results that were far from "pretty darn good," or to respond to, or even acknowledge, my offer to explain to you the statistical problem with determining the efficacy of an "alternative" medical treatment?
: Acupuncture doesn't work for all of her patients; however. Does that statement not raise any red flags for you?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
The One True Zhen Jue - 18 May 2008 14:25 GMT > In article <7805baad-601d-4402-bd1a-c8d281358...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Does that statement not raise any red flags for you? No, and why should it? The soldiers getting acupuncture had been unsuccessfully or incompletely treated by mainstream medicine. Does that raise any red flags for you? Obviously, it doesn't or you would have realized just how lame and argumentative your question was.
Aspirin and even morphine don't work for all pain. So, when do we write them off as 100% placebo?
> ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." Brian Carter - 18 May 2008 17:46 GMT Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is ridiculous.
15% success rate for pain is pretty low. They should get more of these MDs some good training. The best pain acupuncture treatment styles (Master Tong, e.g.) are not taught in the schools yet, and probably don't make it to the MDs' training courses.
Brian http://www.ahlifemed.com
The One True Zhen Jue - 18 May 2008 19:30 GMT > Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is > ridiculous. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brianhttp://www.ahlifemed.com I think you misread the part about 15%. The article said "Acupuncture doesn't work for all of her patients; however. About 15 percent do not respond to acupuncture, Major Simpson said, but of the patients that do, their pain reduction often averages about 75 percent."
85% response should be considered pretty darn good, especially considering how "new" it is to the armed forces medical services. I'm sure that it will improve with higher educational standards & statistical review of the efficacy of their methods.
Dr Schultz urges us to see "red flags" due to there being any patients that do not respond to acupuncture. I figured any number over 50% would be impressive, give that few of the conditions treated represent "low hanging fruit". Not only that, consider the very low cost & risk in stunning contrast to the patient and clinician satisfaction.
In summation, as far as Acupuncture in the USAF goes: the patient wins, the physician wins, & even the taxpayer wins! What kind of misanthrope would try to pooh-pooh that?
FWIW, I agree with you in regard to the general training for pain in the USA. (I happen to be a fan of Dr Richard Tan as well as Master Tong). Good stuff!
Martin - 19 May 2008 17:34 GMT >> Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is >> ridiculous. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >85% response should be considered pretty darn good, What's more surprising is that apparently, 15% of them do not respond to needles being stuck in them.
> especially considering how "new" it is to the armed forces medical services. I'm >sure that it will improve with higher educational standards & [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"low hanging fruit". Not only that, consider the very low cost & risk >in stunning contrast to the patient and clinician satisfaction. I thought acupuncture 'worked'? But no, apparently, it's about satisfaction, not efficacy.
>In summation, as far as Acupuncture in the USAF goes: the patient >wins, the physician wins, & even the taxpayer wins! What kind of >misanthrope would try to pooh-pooh that? Oooh, pre-emptive poisoning the well are we? Why the hell is the USAF spending money on such obvious crap as acupuncture when it should be spending the money on stuff that works!
>FWIW, I agree with you in regard to the general training for pain in >the USA. (I happen to be a fan of Dr Richard Tan as well as Master >Tong). And these guys call you grasshopper, right?
The One True Zhen Jue - 19 May 2008 23:00 GMT > On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:20 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What's more surprising is that apparently, 15% of them do not respond > to needles being stuck in them. Yeah, such a small % is truly surprising. Conventional medicine can't begin to substantiate such a claim. Imagine how this success rate will improve once they expand upon the 40 MD's trained as Licensed Acupuncturists. In time, they will be better trained and more numerous. I'd wager that in 3 years, there will be over 100 in the Airforce alone. The other branches will soon follow, swelling the ranks of acupuncturist MD's. After all, the finest military deserves the finest healthcare and Acupuncture typifies excellence.
> > especially considering how "new" it is to the armed forces medical services. I'm > >sure that it will improve with higher educational standards & [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I thought acupuncture 'worked'? But no, apparently, it's about > satisfaction, not efficacy. Are you really that dense? The satisfaction is the logical result of successful, safe, inexpensive pain relief.
> >In summation, as far as Acupuncture in the USAF goes: the patient > >wins, the physician wins, & even the taxpayer wins! What kind of > >misanthrope would try to pooh-pooh that? > > Oooh, pre-emptive poisoning the well are we? That's a negatory, good buddy! Who else could oppose such a wonderful situation? It works for the soldiers, physicians, & taxpayers! It is perhaps the most cost effective program in the entire federal budget, much less in the armed forces!
> Why the hell is the USAF spending money on such obvious crap as > acupuncture when it should be spending the money on stuff that works! Martin! Shame on you! You should join the members of the USAF who are rejoycing over this happy development! The very least you could do is offer _honest_ criticism. Sadly, you and Schultz have some irrational reaction to the topic of Acupuncture.
In short, the USAF _IS_ spending wholesome, US taxpayer dollars the way intended by the founding fathers. They are purchasing something that works, reduces risk, eliminates human suffering, and saves money. It even brings posthumous tears of joy to Ronald Reagan, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, John Adams, et al.
Yup, Acupuncture continues to make inroads. Its in the US's major research universities' hospitals & armed forces. In the UK, it is used ahead of all other methods for chronic pain and nausea. The efficacy train will be coming to your hospital soon!
> >FWIW, I agree with you in regard to the general training for pain in > >the USA. (I happen to be a fan of Dr Richard Tan as well as Master > >Tong). > > And these guys call you grasshopper, right?- Hide quoted text - They call me "Doctor". They call you "Monkey Boy". Do make a note of it.
> - Show quoted text - Citizen Jimserac - 20 May 2008 12:39 GMT On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
> Martin! Shame on you! > You should join the members of the USAF who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sadly, you and Schultz have some > irrational reaction to the topic of Acupuncture. In my opinion, with pretend arguments, distractionism, ad hominems and egotistic assertions, neither of them has anything useful to say. After wasting numerous posts attempting to engage in rational conversation, I have learned the correct response to their contemptuous dismissals disguised as "opinion" is to ignore them.
We have pointed out numerous research papers, links, and other information supportive of the efficacy of Acupuncture to no avail, for example,
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol17_3/volume_17__number_3.htm
because those two are not, in my opinion, interested in anything but disrupting the discussions of alternative medicine rather than contributing.
If this were a moderated group, their worthless comments and posts would have been kicked out long ago.
While those two are wasting everyones time with their nonsense, Dr. Niemtzow's work on battlefield acupuncture and his description of research to help our wounded soldiers proceed.
Citizen Jimserac
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 May 2008 13:28 GMT > On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac What truly amazes me isn't that Schultz & Martin don't accept the overwhelming evidence in favor of Acupuncture efficacy. They have some religious objection to Acupuncture or exhibit some psychological disorder when Acupuncture is discussed. What is truly amazing is that Richard continues to lie when his comments are being archived in a public forum. Repeatedly and without remorse, he claims his statement saying acupuncture doesn't work didn't mean the he believed that acupuncture doesn't work. Worse, he fabricates statements, attributes them to me, and when caught in the act, he either ignores it or gets indignent at being exposed as the remorseless liar he has choosen to be.
Martin, on the other hand, thinks that Acupuncture outperforming conventional medicine for backpain means that backpain is too complicated for humans to attempt to treat. He believes that hitting oneself in the head with a hammer CURES pain in other parts of the body and CURES headaches other than those inflicted by the hammer. I only hope he gets the opportunity to test his hammer method on his entire bodily surface. Such research could teach him a thing or two about how medical experiments are conducted.
Yup, those clowns will be lying & denying for the rest of their days. They, like King Canute, will order the rising tide (of acupuncture efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat. They will end up every bit as wet as Canute did.
Richard Schultz - 20 May 2008 14:22 GMT : What truly amazes me isn't that Schultz & Martin don't accept the : overwhelming evidence in favor of Acupuncture efficacy. I am no longer amazed by your refusal even to *acknowledge* the existence of evidence against the efficacy (other than as a placebo) of acupuncture. That you actively misrepresent the contents of articles that purport to support your point of view doesn't amaze me either.
: They have some religious objection to Acupuncture or exhibit some : psychological disorder when Acupuncture is discussed. The word you are looking for is "projection."
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- There's something I must tell you, there's something I must say: The only really perfect love is one that gets away.
bucephale - 20 May 2008 15:02 GMT > In article <e30413ae-a97b-4af3-b661-cb64426e2...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > There's something I must tell you, there's something I must say: > The only really perfect love is one that gets away. Whatever the evidence is or not ( please apoloogize about my english ) , but as far as i can know, there is a typical new technic of acunpunture, made by a french doctor, you can see on the french web site www.medical-discount.fr
Citizen Jimserac - 20 May 2008 18:26 GMT > > On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat. They will end up > every bit as wet as Canute did. Sad but true. Note the "statistician's" response focuses on one thing and then apparently finds all of Acupuncture is invalid because of it. The other idiot probably would poke himself in the a.s with a needle, notice that the pain there distracted from his headache and then conclude that he had "solved" all of Acupuncture and invalidated it.
Then we have the third idiot, chime in to almost every post with his on the spot "evaluation", insult and condemnation.
No need to waste a tenth of second on these idiots, they have no interest in discussions about much of anything. When this is identified, they will often briefly drop into a semi-rational mode, note the word briefly, and then quickly resume their nonsense once it appears that they have entered some sort of "serious" exchange of ideas.
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 20 May 2008 19:08 GMT >> On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue >> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >entire bodily surface. Such research could teach him a thing or two >about how medical experiments are conducted. Wow, talk about putting words in peoples mouth! Amazing how alties like yourself always exactly exhibit the behaviour they accuse others off.
>Yup, those clowns will be lying & denying for the rest of their days. >They, like King Canute, will order the rising tide (of acupuncture >efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat. They will end up >every bit as wet as Canute did. The One True Zhen Jue - 21 May 2008 00:33 GMT > On Tue, 20 May 2008 05:28:17 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > like yourself always exactly exhibit the behaviour they accuse others > off. Have you been taking lessons from Schultz or are you senile? The google archive remembers what you've said, regardless of how much you'd like to disown such stupid comments. When confronted by the fact that acupuncture easily outperforms conventional medicine in the treatment of backpain, you said back pain shouldn't be treated. Perhaps your view isn't based on conventional medicine's poor performance or acupuncture's superior efficacy, but that like for people to suffer from backaches. After all, why would you say that people should do nothing when a safe, practical, effective alternative exists?
Here is what I said:
>There is far more research that shows the opposite. And, almost all >studies of acupuncture for back or neck pain vs conventional treatment >show acupuncture beating the conventional treatment and the placebo >effect. Often, conventional medicine fails to equal placebo. Here is what you said:
Doing nothing at all is usually the best advice.
And regarding headaches, I said:
>According to your declaration, hitting yourself with a hammer relieves >headaches by creating a distraction. You replied:
Yes, it does! I admit the side-effect is about as bad as the original headache so I wouldn't recommend it, but yes, that's how it works. Did you know that drowning yourself will also cure you of any and all healthproblems
> >Yup, those clowns will be lying & denying for the rest of their days. > >They, like King Canute, will order the rising tide (of acupuncture [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Citizen Jimserac - 21 May 2008 03:15 GMT > > On Tue, 20 May 2008 05:28:17 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - Martin - 20 May 2008 19:09 GMT >> On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue >> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat. They will end up >every bit as wet as Canute did. BTW, what are you doing becoming buddies with an anti-vac liar like Jimserac? Is that how low you are wiling to stoop to get support for your delusional idea that acupuncture works?
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 05:45 GMT > anti-vac liar ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Richard Schultz - 20 May 2008 13:35 GMT : We have pointed out numerous research papers, : links, and other information supportive : of the efficacy of Acupuncture to no avail, : for example, : : http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol17_3/volume_17__number_3.htm Well, the first paper in that issue reports a study that reaches the conclusion that there was no statistically significant difference between the experimental and placebo treatments. Why am I supposed to be impressed, or read any further?
: because those two are not, in my opinion, interested in anything but : disrupting the discussions of alternative medicine : rather than contributing. It's rather amusing that when you are presented with results that indicate that the alternative treatment du jour does not work, you refuse to discuss *those*. By what right do you require of others that they respond to whatever you post?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . .in short, his post became untenable; and having swallowed his quantum of tea, he judged it expedient to evacuate." Charlotte Bronte, _Shirley_
Mark Probert - 20 May 2008 14:19 GMT > In my opinion, > with pretend arguments, distractionism, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > dismissals disguised as "opinion" > is to ignore them. Quite typical of a truely closed "mind". What you should have said, to be correct, is that you ignore people when they either post information that refutes your position, or, they point out your tactics as being anti-free speech.
snippo
> If this were a moderated group, > their worthless comments and posts > would have been kicked out long ago. See? Just like I said. You favor censorship.
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:02 GMT Martin - 20 May 2008 19:06 GMT >On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >dismissals disguised as "opinion" >is to ignore them. Why don't you just f*ck off and die, anti-vac lying b*stard.
>We have pointed out numerous research papers, >links, and other information supportive [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Citizen Jimserac Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:04 GMT "Martin" <idontwantno@spam.com> wrote:
> Why don't you just f*ck off and die, anti-vac lying b*stard. Poor Martin Rady.
Martin - 20 May 2008 19:05 GMT >> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >do is offer _honest_ criticism. Sadly, you and Schultz have some >irrational reaction to the topic of Acupuncture. No we do not. It's been demonstrated again and again and again that it makes no difference where you stick the needles and that it doesn't even matter that you use needles at all. It's all just an eleborate placebo. Period.
>In short, the USAF _IS_ spending wholesome, US taxpayer dollars the >way intended by the founding fathers. They're wasting money on pure, unequivocal quackery, depriving the men and women in the USAF of effective medical care. They might just as well roll up the dollar bills, light them and use them for moxibustion.
> They are purchasing something >that works, reduces risk, eliminates human suffering, and saves [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Yup, Acupuncture continues to make inroads. Its in the US's major >research universities' hospitals & armed forces. It's a disgrace that a developed country is going back to ineffective methods from before the dark ages, robbing the taxpayers of their money and soldiers of their health.
> In the UK, it is >used ahead of all other methods for chronic pain and nausea. The [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >They call me "Doctor". They call you "Monkey Boy". Do make a note of >it. You clearly demonstrate that education is not a barrier for stupidity.
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 May 2008 19:25 GMT > On Mon, 19 May 2008 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue > [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > even matter that you use needles at all. It's all just an eleborate > placebo. Period. Wait a minute, Martin. You've claimed it is simply that the acupuncture causes greater pain than the treated condition. How can that be the mechanism of action if it isn't even required? Why do you simultaneously insist that it is and isn't the mechanism of action? Is it due to head trauma from testing your theory with the hammer? If not, what other neurological disorders might you blame it on?
> >In short, the USAF _IS_ spending wholesome, US taxpayer dollars the > >way intended by the founding fathers. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > well roll up the dollar bills, light them and use them for > moxibustion. Perhaps you should reframe your complaint into a proposal to the USAF. Right now, there are only 40 USAF MD acupuncturists to implement your suggestion. But, take heart in the fact that the number will rise.
What are you and Shultz gonna do when the rest of the US Armed forces jump on the acupuncture bandwagon? Are you guys going to write the Sec Def & Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and convince him it's just a placebo? Maybe you can demonstrate your point by hammering yourself into a pain free state while Schultz uses Occam's razor to shred his theological underpinnings. At any rate, I do hope you guys will turn tape it and post it to YouTube.
> > They are purchasing something > >that works, reduces risk, eliminates human suffering, and saves [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > methods from before the dark ages, robbing the taxpayers of their > money and soldiers of their health. Ah, your disgust is music to my ears and to the ears of all decent people! Keep singing! What is truly disgraceful is that you are upset with the joyful news. Can't you just be happy for the patients, physicians, and the taxpayer? Can't you rejoice in money well spent & misery relieved? What type of misanthrope wouldn't? I guess you favor higher cost, higher risk, & lower efficacy for our armed forces. Decent people everywhere disagree.
> > In the UK, it is > >used ahead of all other methods for chronic pain and nausea. The [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > You clearly demonstrate that education is not a barrier for stupidity.- Hide quoted text - Obviously, you've got Schultz on your mind.
> - Show quoted text - Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 05:38 GMT Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 05:56 GMT : Aspirin and even morphine don't work for all pain. So, when do we : write them off as 100% placebo? I have offered to explain to you the statistical difficulties with evaluating alternative therapies (or regular therapies, for that matter). I have presented you with a number of articles that conclude that acupuncture works no better than a placebo; the significance of these papers was explained to you by Peter Moran. All of this has been ignored by you. When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
The One True Zhen Jue - 19 May 2008 13:08 GMT > In article <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand > how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you. That is your answer to the fact that only 15% of the MD Acupuncturist's patients didn't respond to acupuncture? People unsuccessfully treated with conventional medicine had an 85% response rate and an average of 75% reduction in pain and its all a placebo? Do show me a situation where a conventional method achieves such results. Cue chirping crickets.
By all means, do inform the Airforce, the NIH, the WHO, the UK, and all the major medical schools that they don't know enough to realize that they are using a placebo. I'm sure they'll be delighted to be set straight by you. And, while you are at it, do explain why only 15% of the Airforce patients do not respond to acupuncture and why those who do average 75% reduction in pain.
What is well known about acupuncture is that it works. It works better than conventional methods for pain and nausea. Its efficacy is as certain as Richard Schultz's need to lie about acupuncture.
> ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 13:51 GMT > In article <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > ----- > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." You have NOT offered jack sh.t.
You sit there and pretend to know statistics, insult everyone and take some sort of holier than though attitude.
I keep waiting for something substansive but it never comes.
As you very well know, STATISTICS CAN LIE... the Tobacco companies did it for years and more recently Vioxx.
You know the consequences.
I unfortunately have to put your comments in the same category as Martin and Mark Probert and ignore your posts.
Like the both of the above mentioned people, you are perfectly capable of intelligent well reasoned posts and I'm certain, hiding behind all that pretension, you have a genuine intellect whose comments are worthy of consideration.
You are genius at one thing I've seen so far and one thing only - you project the APPEARANCE of knowing the answers but the answers themselves never come.
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 15:05 GMT : You have NOT offered jack sh.t. I have made an offer. Your refusal to acknowledge the offer does not mean that the offer was made -- at least here on planet Earth. I have no idea what goes on in Bizzarro World.
: You sit there and pretend to know statistics, I do not pretend to know any more about statistics than I in fact know about statistics. If you would take the trouble to look up my published papers, you'll find that the reported results include a statistical analysis (admittedly a very basic one). That means that I must know at least a *little* about statistics, which is obviously more than you do.
: I keep waiting for something substansive but it never comes. Did you read the two articles about acupuncture and quitting smoking that I posted? I didn't think so.
What you apparently fail to realize is that I do not consider it my job to make up the many lacunae in your education. I have told you that if you want to understand what it is that you do not understand, you will at the very least have to learn some basic chemistry and biology. It's not my job to teach you.
: As you very well know, STATISTICS CAN LIE... the Tobacco : companies did it for years and more recently Vioxx. As usual, you fall for yet another popular logical fallacy. Statistics don't lie, but statisticians can. And what you don't understand is that *precisely* the same kinds of statistical flaws that plagued the drug companies' reports of Vioxx, anti-depressants, etc., are the same kinds of statistical flaws that plague positive reports of acupuncture, homeopathy, and so on. The tobacco companies weren't falling for the same kind of statistical fallacy -- they were telling outright lies.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 15:37 GMT > In article <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand > how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you. Let me translate these comments for everyone.
"I (NOTE THE "I") have presented you with a number of articles that conclude..." "the significance of these papers was explained to you by PETER MORAN...
These kinds of comments are the well known LOGICAL FALLACY known as the ARGUMENTUM AD AUTHORITATEM (APPEAL TO AUTHORITY).
"When you show any interest in learning enough to be ABLE to understand" (emphasis mine) "how one goes about answering your question, I will GLADLY answer it for you".
Here Richard is again appealing to the "authority" (sic) of his intellect presupposing that he even UNDERSTANDS THE QUESTION, and presupposing not only that he knows the answer to this question but is in possession of a methodology to answer ALL such questions.
He then adds his favorite "endquote" "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Note that Richard, who has infinitely AMPLE OPPORTUNITY to post serious answers and offer up opinions which could be debated NEVER seems to do so. He only keeps repeating over and over that HE has the answer and if only we are nice and beg, HE will deign to explain the ANSWER to us.
A better example of the logical fallacy known as the appeal to authority could not be found.
I think by now we are all (or most of us) of the same opinion on Richard's endlessly repeated boasts -> PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
Citizen Jimserac We DO have a CLUE about YOU!!!!!
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 16:21 GMT :> I have offered to explain to you the statistical difficulties with :> evaluating alternative therapies (or regular therapies, for that matter). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :> When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand :> how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you.
: "I (NOTE THE "I") have presented you with a number of articles : that conclude..." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : the well known LOGICAL FALLACY known as the : ARGUMENTUM AD AUTHORITATEM (APPEAL TO AUTHORITY). Wrong again.
: Note that Richard, who has infinitely AMPLE OPPORTUNITY : to post serious answers and offer up opinions which : could be debated NEVER seems to do so. I have offered up serious answers: I have posted citations to (and in some cases abstracts of) the scientific literature and offered to discuss the contents thereof. Somehow, these offers are never taken up.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Why is it so important that you want to contact the governments of our Earth?" "Because of Death! Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 17:23 GMT On May 19, 11:21 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz)
POSTING IGNNORED.
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:28 GMT >> In article >> <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > Citizen Jimserac > We DO have a CLUE about YOU!!!!! Hip! Hip! Hooray!
It's called Power Hungry Demeanor
Citizen Jimserac - 18 May 2008 18:34 GMT > Does that statement not raise any red flags for you? > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." It does for me, it means your endquote stinks.
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 05:57 GMT :> Does that statement not raise any red flags for you? :> :> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
: It does for me, it means your endquote stinks. Tell me, why is it so important to you that you make a fool of yourself in public? Are you being paid by Big Pharma to make alternative medicine look bad?
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Why is it so important that you want to contact the governments of our Earth?" "Because of Death! Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 13:44 GMT > In article <cc7043ab-9f9c-472e-ba53-fe56f04c6...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in public? Are you being paid by Big Pharma to make alternative medicine > look bad? Am I being paid by Big Pharma???
You're kidding right?
OK, where's the kill file icon...
Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 15:06 GMT : Am I being paid by Big Pharma??? Well, there are basically two explanations for why you consistently post what can only be described as "idiocy." The less unflattering of the two is that you are being paid to act like an idiot.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot."
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:30 GMT "Richard Schultz" idiot.
> ----- > Richard Schultz Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:29 GMT "Richard Schultz"
PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
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