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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008

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Acupuncture in the USAF

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The One True Zhen Jue - 17 May 2008 20:32 GMT
Note that the two MD's here are just two of the forty MD's the USAF
has on staff that are trained as L.Ac's.  Results?  Pretty darn good!

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,164071,00.html

Battlefield Acupuncture Introduced
Air Force Print News | March 14, 2008
LANDSTUHL REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER, Germany - A medical procedure
dating back thousands of years was introduced to patients and medical
staff for one week in March at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center.

A limited form of acupuncture, called battlefield acupuncture, was
introduced to LRMC doctors who applied the procedure to war-wounded
servicemembers and local patients for pain relief, and often with
significant results.

Major (Dr.) Conner Nguyen was exposed to acupuncture as both a patient
and physician and was equally impressed in both roles. As a patient,
Major Nguyen experienced 25 percent increased range of motion and a 50
percent reduction in pain for chronic shoulders and upper back pain he
endured for several years.

As a pain physician specialist at LRMC, Major Nguyen recruited his
most challenging patients with whom traditional pain treatment offered
limited relief. Within minutes of the short golden studs inserted on
their ears, many said they enjoyed a pain reduction of up to 75
percent.

A reduction of 25 percent would be considered a success with
traditional pain medications, Major Nguyen said. In one case, a
patient broke into tears when the severe pain he had been suffering
from for more than a year subsided within moments.

When the military acupuncturists who introduced battlefield
acupuncture return to conduct the follow-up certification training
required to practice ancient form of medicine, Major Nguyen will be
among the list of LRMC physicians desiring to add acupuncture as
another tool in their medical kit.

"It allows a provider like me to confidently complete a treatment and
expect a good result within minutes," Major Nguyen said. Other
advantages he noted are virtually no significant complications,
patients are subjected to little or no discomfort, and immediate
results that can be "quite spectacular sometimes."

Major Nguyen received his interim hands-on training during the
weeklong visit by Col. (Dr.) Stephen Burns and Col. (Dr.) Richard
Niemtzow, two of the 40 Department of Defense doctors trained as a
licensed acupuncturist.

Colonel Niemtzow developed and named the battlefield acupuncture
technique in 2001. It is a radical departure from classical Chinese,
French and German ear acupuncture. He said he realized its possible
military value and the events of the World Trade Center influenced him
to name it battlefield acupuncture.

As an Air Force acupuncturist, Colonel Niemtzow has trained hundreds
of his military counterparts. Battlefield acupuncture focuses on
locations on the ear that he said have been known for hundreds of
years as effective areas for pain control. The ear is also practical
because it can be readily accessed whether on the battlefield or in a
hospital bed.

Acupuncture can also be a practical means for treating pain in the
military, he said, in instances such as a Soldier who develops a
migraine headache at the onset of a mission. Where pain medication
could cloud the mind and compromise the mission, acupuncture could
offer long-lasting relief within minutes.

Introducing acupuncture to doctors trained in traditional Western
medicine often meets with raised eyebrows, but the reception is
warming.

"In the beginning, many people were skeptical, but after seeing it
demonstrated on patients and the benefits achieved -- especially in
the area of pain -- the majority of physicians embraced it and learned
how to use it in their practice as an adjunctive therapy," said
Colonel Niemtzow, who is the consultant for alternative and
complimentary medicine to the Air Force surgeon general.

The ancient form of medicine was readily received at LRMC, said Col.
(Dr.) Stephen Princiotta, the deputy commander for clinical services
here.

"The doctors who saw it in action and heard about it have been very
excited about the opportunity to add acupuncture as an adjunctive
therapy to what we already have been able to accomplish with western
medicine," Colonel Princiotta said.

One LRMC doctor previously trained under Colonel Niemtzow as well as
well attending the Helms Medical Institute at the University of
California in Los Angeles for an additional 300 hours of acupuncture
training. Maj. (Dr.) Teri Simpson is an anesthesiologist by trade, but
uses acupuncture one day a week at the LRMC pain clinic with great
success.

"I love it," Major Simpson said. "It can be life-changing when the
patient responds immediately and looks at you like you're a
magician."

Major Simpson said she tells them she doesn't completely understand
how it works but is always happy to see a patient break into a smile
who was in misery only minutes before.

In addition to using the small studs that resemble a small pierced
earring, Major Simpson uses the longer needles more commonly
associated with acupuncture. The frequency of application and the
duration of relief vary with each patient, but treatment can progress
from about two times a week to as little as once a month or longer. In
some cases, further acupuncture treatment may not be required.

Acupuncture doesn't work for all of her patients; however. About 15
percent do not respond to acupuncture, Major Simpson said, but of the
patients that do, their pain reduction often averages about 75
percent.

One of those patients was Army Spc. Bradley Phillips, an Army scout
whose back pain while deployed to Iraq increased to the point where he
required treatment at LRMC. Specialist Phillips, a 21 year old with
the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment out of Fort Hood, Texas, had
successfully received acupuncture treatment before by an Army medic
and enthusiastically agreed to for the opportunity to be a part of the
battle acupuncture program.

Specialist Phillips said he preferred acupuncture because it allowed
him to avoid taking pain medications and their side effects. As Major
Simpson applied two studs in his left ear and five in his right, as
well as a few probes into his lower back with a longer needle,
Specialist Phillips' pain slowly eased away.

"While I'm just standing here I feel a lot better," he said. In
addition, the young Soldier edged the closest he'd been to touching
his toes in six months.

For Senior Airman Jillian Sandbothe, traditional pain medication could
never ease the headaches and upper back pain resulting from whiplash
caused by a rear-end collision last April.

"It was amazing," she said of her initial acupuncture treatment that
provided total relief from her headache. "I couldn't believe it the
first time it happened. I could almost function like a normal person
again."

Studs used for battlefield acupuncture barely penetrate the skin and
fall out in about three days. When that occurred, her headaches
returned and Airman Sandbothe arrived at the LRMC pain clinic for
follow-up treatment. As before, the pain diminished as Simpson plied
her acupuncture craft.

"I don't know how it works and I don't really care as long it keeps
working," said Airman Sandbothe, who is assigned to the 52nd Component
Maintenance Squadron at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany.
JanDrew - 17 May 2008 22:56 GMT
<Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7805baad-601d-4402-bd1a-c8d2813581b7@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Note that the two MD's here are just two of the forty MD's the USAF
> has on staff that are trained as L.Ac's.  Results?  Pretty darn good!
[quoted text clipped - 148 lines]
> working," said Airman Sandbothe, who is assigned to the 52nd Component
> Maintenance Squadron at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany.

Which makes Quack Barrett a liar.
Richard Schultz - 18 May 2008 06:52 GMT
: Note that the two MD's here are just two of the forty MD's the USAF
: has on staff that are trained as L.Ac's.  Results?  Pretty darn good!

Why do you refuse to respond to, or even acknowledge, the studies that
I posted that showed results that were far from "pretty darn good," or
to respond to, or even acknowledge, my offer to explain to you the
statistical problem with determining the efficacy of an "alternative"
medical treatment?

: Acupuncture doesn't work for all of her patients; however.

Does that statement not raise any red flags for you?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
The One True Zhen Jue - 18 May 2008 14:25 GMT
> In article <7805baad-601d-4402-bd1a-c8d281358...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Does that statement not raise any red flags for you?

No, and why should it?  The soldiers getting acupuncture had been
unsuccessfully or incompletely treated by mainstream medicine.  Does
that raise any red flags for you?  Obviously, it doesn't or you would
have realized just how lame and argumentative your question was.

Aspirin and even morphine don't work for all pain.  So, when do we
write them off as 100% placebo?

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Brian Carter - 18 May 2008 17:46 GMT
Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is
ridiculous.

15% success rate for pain is pretty low.  They should get more of
these MDs some good training.  The best pain acupuncture treatment
styles (Master Tong, e.g.) are not taught in the schools yet, and
probably don't make it to the MDs' training courses.

Brian
http://www.ahlifemed.com
The One True Zhen Jue - 18 May 2008 19:30 GMT
> Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is
> ridiculous.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Brianhttp://www.ahlifemed.com

I think you misread the part about 15%.  The article said "Acupuncture
doesn't work for all of her patients; however. About 15 percent do not
respond to acupuncture, Major Simpson said, but of the patients that
do, their pain reduction often averages about 75 percent."

85% response should be considered pretty darn good, especially
considering how "new" it is to the armed forces medical services.  I'm
sure that it will improve with higher educational standards &
statistical review of the efficacy of their methods.

Dr Schultz urges us to see "red flags" due to there being any patients
that do not respond to acupuncture.  I figured any number over 50%
would be impressive, give that few of the conditions treated represent
"low hanging fruit".  Not only that, consider the very low cost & risk
in stunning contrast to the patient and clinician satisfaction.

In summation, as far as Acupuncture in the USAF goes: the patient
wins, the physician wins, & even the taxpayer wins!  What kind of
misanthrope would try to pooh-pooh that?

FWIW, I agree with you in regard to the general training for pain in
the USA.  (I happen to be a fan of Dr Richard Tan as well as Master
Tong).  Good stuff!
Martin - 19 May 2008 17:34 GMT
>> Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is
>> ridiculous.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>85% response should be considered pretty darn good,

What's more surprising is that apparently, 15% of them do not respond
to needles being stuck in them.

> especially considering how "new" it is to the armed forces medical services.  I'm
>sure that it will improve with higher educational standards &
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>"low hanging fruit".  Not only that, consider the very low cost & risk
>in stunning contrast to the patient and clinician satisfaction.

I thought acupuncture 'worked'? But no, apparently, it's about
satisfaction, not efficacy.

>In summation, as far as Acupuncture in the USAF goes: the patient
>wins, the physician wins, & even the taxpayer wins!  What kind of
>misanthrope would try to pooh-pooh that?

Oooh, pre-emptive poisoning the well are we?
Why the hell is the USAF spending money on such obvious crap as
acupuncture when it should be spending the money on stuff that works!

>FWIW, I agree with you in regard to the general training for pain in
>the USA.  (I happen to be a fan of Dr Richard Tan as well as Master
>Tong).

And these guys call you grasshopper, right?
The One True Zhen Jue - 19 May 2008 23:00 GMT
> On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:20 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> What's more surprising is that apparently, 15% of them do not respond
> to needles being stuck in them.

Yeah, such a small % is truly surprising.  Conventional medicine can't
begin to substantiate such a claim.  Imagine how this success rate
will improve once they expand upon the 40 MD's trained as Licensed
Acupuncturists.  In time, they will be better trained and more
numerous.  I'd wager that in 3 years, there will be over 100 in the
Airforce alone.  The other branches will soon follow, swelling the
ranks of acupuncturist MD's.  After all, the finest military deserves
the finest healthcare and Acupuncture typifies excellence.

> > especially considering how "new" it is to the armed forces medical services.  I'm
> >sure that it will improve with higher educational standards &
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I thought acupuncture 'worked'? But no, apparently, it's about
> satisfaction, not efficacy.

Are you really that dense?  The satisfaction is the logical result of
successful, safe, inexpensive pain relief.

> >In summation, as far as Acupuncture in the USAF goes: the patient
> >wins, the physician wins, & even the taxpayer wins!  What kind of
> >misanthrope would try to pooh-pooh that?
>
> Oooh, pre-emptive poisoning the well are we?

That's a negatory, good buddy!  Who else could oppose such a wonderful
situation?  It works for the soldiers, physicians, & taxpayers!  It is
perhaps the most cost effective program in the entire federal budget,
much less in the armed forces!

> Why the hell is the USAF spending money on such obvious crap as
> acupuncture when it should be spending the money on stuff that works!

Martin!  Shame on you!  You should join the members of the USAF who
are rejoycing over this happy development!  The very least you could
do is offer _honest_ criticism.  Sadly, you and Schultz have some
irrational reaction to the topic of Acupuncture.

In short, the USAF _IS_ spending wholesome, US taxpayer dollars the
way intended by the founding fathers.  They are purchasing something
that works, reduces risk, eliminates human suffering, and saves
money.  It even brings posthumous tears of joy to Ronald Reagan,
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, John Adams, et
al.

Yup, Acupuncture continues to make inroads.  Its in the US's major
research universities' hospitals & armed forces.  In the UK, it is
used ahead of all other methods for chronic pain and nausea.  The
efficacy train will be coming to your hospital soon!

> >FWIW, I agree with you in regard to the general training for pain in
> >the USA.  (I happen to be a fan of Dr Richard Tan as well as Master
> >Tong).
>
> And these guys call you grasshopper, right?- Hide quoted text -

They call me "Doctor".  They call you "Monkey Boy".  Do make a note of
it.

> - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 20 May 2008 12:39 GMT
On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue

> Martin!  Shame on you!
> You should join the members of the USAF who
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Sadly, you and Schultz have some
> irrational reaction to the topic of Acupuncture.

In my opinion,
with pretend arguments, distractionism,
ad hominems and egotistic assertions,
neither of them has anything
useful to say.    After wasting
numerous posts attempting to engage
in rational conversation, I have learned
the correct response to their contemptuous
dismissals disguised as "opinion"
is to ignore them.

We have pointed out numerous research papers,
links, and other information supportive
of the efficacy of Acupuncture to no avail,
for example,

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol17_3/volume_17__number_3.htm

because those two are not, in my opinion,
interested in anything but disrupting
the discussions of alternative medicine
rather than contributing.

If this were a moderated group,
their worthless comments and posts
would have been kicked out long ago.

While those two are wasting
everyones time with their
nonsense, Dr. Niemtzow's work
on battlefield acupuncture and his
description of research to help
our wounded soldiers proceed.

Citizen Jimserac
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 May 2008 13:28 GMT
> On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac

What truly amazes me isn't that Schultz & Martin don't accept the
overwhelming evidence in favor of Acupuncture efficacy.  They have
some religious objection to Acupuncture or exhibit some psychological
disorder when Acupuncture is discussed.  What is truly amazing is that
Richard continues to lie when his comments are being archived in a
public forum.  Repeatedly and without remorse, he claims his statement
saying acupuncture doesn't work didn't mean the he believed that
acupuncture doesn't work.  Worse, he fabricates statements, attributes
them to me, and when caught in the act, he either ignores it or gets
indignent at being exposed as the remorseless liar he has choosen to
be.

Martin, on the other hand, thinks that Acupuncture outperforming
conventional medicine for backpain means that backpain is too
complicated for humans to attempt to treat.  He believes that hitting
oneself in the head with a hammer CURES pain in other parts of the
body and CURES headaches other than those inflicted by the hammer.  I
only hope he gets the opportunity to test his hammer method on his
entire bodily surface.  Such research could teach him a thing or two
about how medical experiments are conducted.

Yup, those clowns will be lying & denying for the rest of their days.
They, like King Canute, will order the rising tide (of acupuncture
efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat.  They will end up
every bit as wet as Canute did.
Richard Schultz - 20 May 2008 14:22 GMT
: What truly amazes me isn't that Schultz & Martin don't accept the
: overwhelming evidence in favor of Acupuncture efficacy.  

I am no longer amazed by your refusal even to *acknowledge* the existence
of evidence against the efficacy (other than as a placebo) of acupuncture.
That you actively misrepresent the contents of articles that purport to
support your point of view doesn't amaze me either.

: They have some religious objection to Acupuncture or exhibit some
: psychological disorder when Acupuncture is discussed.  

The word you are looking for is "projection."

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
There's something I must tell you, there's something I must say:
The only really perfect love is one that gets away.
bucephale - 20 May 2008 15:02 GMT
> In article <e30413ae-a97b-4af3-b661-cb64426e2...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> There's something I must tell you, there's something I must say:
> The only really perfect love is one that gets away.

Whatever the evidence is or not ( please apoloogize about my
english ) , but as far as i can know, there is a typical new technic
of acunpunture, made by a french doctor, you can see on the french web
site www.medical-discount.fr
Citizen Jimserac - 20 May 2008 18:26 GMT
> > On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat.  They will end up
> every bit as wet as Canute did.

Sad but true.  Note the "statistician's" response
focuses on one thing and then apparently
finds all of Acupuncture is invalid because
of it.  The other idiot probably would poke
himself in the a.s with a needle, notice
that the pain there distracted from
his headache and then conclude
that he had "solved" all of Acupuncture
and invalidated it.

Then we have the third idiot,
chime in to almost every post
with his on the spot "evaluation",
insult and condemnation.

No need to waste a tenth of
second on these idiots,
they have no interest
in discussions about  much
of anything.  When this is
identified, they will often
briefly drop into a semi-rational
mode, note the word briefly,
and then quickly resume
their nonsense once it appears
that they have entered some
sort of "serious" exchange of ideas.

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 20 May 2008 19:08 GMT
>> On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>entire bodily surface.  Such research could teach him a thing or two
>about how medical experiments are conducted.

Wow, talk about putting words in peoples mouth! Amazing how alties
like yourself always exactly exhibit the behaviour they accuse others
off.

>Yup, those clowns will be lying & denying for the rest of their days.
>They, like King Canute, will order the rising tide (of acupuncture
>efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat.  They will end up
>every bit as wet as Canute did.
The One True Zhen Jue - 21 May 2008 00:33 GMT
> On Tue, 20 May 2008 05:28:17 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> like yourself always exactly exhibit the behaviour they accuse others
> off.

Have you been taking lessons from Schultz or are you senile?  The
google archive remembers what you've said, regardless of how much
you'd like to disown such stupid comments.   When confronted by the
fact that acupuncture easily outperforms conventional medicine in the
treatment of backpain, you said back pain shouldn't be treated.
Perhaps your view isn't based on conventional medicine's poor
performance or acupuncture's superior efficacy, but that like for
people to suffer from backaches.  After all, why would you say that
people should do nothing when a safe, practical, effective alternative
exists?

Here is what I said:

>There is far more research that shows the opposite.  And, almost all
>studies of acupuncture for back or neck pain vs conventional treatment
>show acupuncture beating the conventional treatment and the placebo
>effect.  Often, conventional medicine fails to equal placebo.

Here is what you said:

Doing nothing at all is usually the best advice.

And regarding headaches, I said:

>According to your declaration, hitting yourself with a hammer relieves
>headaches by creating a distraction.

You replied:

Yes, it does! I admit the side-effect is about as bad as the original
headache so I wouldn't recommend it, but yes, that's how it works.
Did
you know that drowning yourself will also cure you of any and all
healthproblems

> >Yup, those clowns will be lying & denying for the rest of their days.
> >They, like King Canute, will order the rising tide (of acupuncture
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Citizen Jimserac - 21 May 2008 03:15 GMT
> > On Tue, 20 May 2008 05:28:17 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -
Martin - 20 May 2008 19:09 GMT
>> On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
>>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>efficacy) to accept their authority and retreat.  They will end up
>every bit as wet as Canute did.

BTW, what are you doing becoming buddies with an anti-vac liar like
Jimserac? Is that how low you are wiling to stoop to get support for
your delusional idea that acupuncture works?
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 05:45 GMT
> anti-vac liar  

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Richard Schultz - 20 May 2008 13:35 GMT
: We have pointed out numerous research papers,
: links, and other information supportive
: of the efficacy of Acupuncture to no avail,
: for example,
:
: http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol17_3/volume_17__number_3.htm 
Well, the first paper in that issue reports a study that reaches the
conclusion that there was no statistically significant difference between
the experimental and placebo treatments.  Why am I supposed to be impressed,
or read any further?

: because those two are not, in my opinion, interested in anything but
: disrupting the discussions of alternative medicine
: rather than contributing.

It's rather amusing that when you are presented with results that indicate
that the alternative treatment du jour does not work, you refuse to
discuss *those*.  By what right do you require of others that they
respond to whatever you post?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
". . .in short, his post became untenable; and having swallowed his
quantum of tea, he judged it expedient to evacuate."
                   Charlotte Bronte, _Shirley_
Mark Probert - 20 May 2008 14:19 GMT
> In my opinion,
> with pretend arguments, distractionism,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> dismissals disguised as "opinion"
> is to ignore them.

Quite typical of a truely closed "mind". What you should have said, to
be correct, is that you ignore people when they either post
information that refutes your position, or, they point out your
tactics as being anti-free speech.

snippo

> If this were a moderated group,
> their worthless comments and posts
> would have been kicked out long ago.

See? Just like I said. You favor censorship.
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:02 GMT
snippo

Off-topic
Martin - 20 May 2008 19:06 GMT
>On May 19, 6:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>dismissals disguised as "opinion"
>is to ignore them.

Why don't you just f*ck off and die, anti-vac lying b*stard.

>We have pointed out numerous research papers,
>links, and other information supportive
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:04 GMT
"Martin" <idontwantno@spam.com> wrote:  
> Why don't you just f*ck off and die, anti-vac lying b*stard.

Poor Martin Rady.
Martin - 20 May 2008 19:05 GMT
>> <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Agreed, the double std applied to acupuncture and conventional med is
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>do is offer _honest_ criticism.  Sadly, you and Schultz have some
>irrational reaction to the topic of Acupuncture.

No we do not. It's been demonstrated again and again and again that it
makes no difference where you stick the needles and that it doesn't
even matter that you use needles at all. It's all just an eleborate
placebo. Period.

>In short, the USAF _IS_ spending wholesome, US taxpayer dollars the
>way intended by the founding fathers.  

They're wasting money on pure, unequivocal quackery, depriving the men
and women in the USAF of effective medical care. They might just as
well roll up the dollar bills, light them and use them for
moxibustion.

> They are purchasing something
>that works, reduces risk, eliminates human suffering, and saves
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Yup, Acupuncture continues to make inroads.  Its in the US's major
>research universities' hospitals & armed forces.  

It's a disgrace that a developed country is going back to ineffective
methods from before the dark ages, robbing the taxpayers of their
money and soldiers of their health.

> In the UK, it is
>used ahead of all other methods for chronic pain and nausea.  The
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>They call me "Doctor".  They call you "Monkey Boy".  Do make a note of
>it.

You clearly demonstrate that education is not a barrier for stupidity.
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 May 2008 19:25 GMT
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT), The One True Zhen Jue
>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> even matter that you use needles at all. It's all just an eleborate
> placebo. Period.

Wait a minute, Martin.  You've claimed it is simply that the
acupuncture causes greater pain than the treated condition.  How can
that be the mechanism of action if it isn't even required?   Why do
you simultaneously insist that it is and isn't the mechanism of
action?  Is it due to head trauma from testing your theory with the
hammer?  If not, what other neurological disorders might you blame it
on?

> >In short, the USAF _IS_ spending wholesome, US taxpayer dollars the
> >way intended by the founding fathers.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> well roll up the dollar bills, light them and use them for
> moxibustion.

Perhaps you should reframe your complaint into a proposal to the
USAF.  Right now, there are only 40 USAF MD acupuncturists to
implement your suggestion.  But, take heart in the fact that the
number will rise.

What are you and Shultz gonna do when the rest of the US Armed forces
jump on the acupuncture bandwagon?  Are you guys going to write the
Sec Def & Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and convince him it's just a
placebo?  Maybe you can demonstrate your point by hammering yourself
into a pain free state while Schultz uses Occam's razor to shred his
theological underpinnings.  At any rate, I do hope you guys will turn
tape it and post it to YouTube.

> > They are purchasing something
> >that works, reduces risk, eliminates human suffering, and saves
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> methods from before the dark ages, robbing the taxpayers of their
> money and soldiers of their health.

Ah, your disgust is music to my ears and to the ears of all decent
people!  Keep singing!
What is truly disgraceful is that you are upset with the joyful news.
Can't you just be happy for the patients, physicians, and the
taxpayer?  Can't you rejoice in money well spent & misery relieved?
What type of misanthrope wouldn't?  I guess you favor higher cost,
higher risk, & lower efficacy for our armed forces.  Decent people
everywhere disagree.

> > In the UK, it is
> >used ahead of all other methods for chronic pain and nausea.  The
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> You clearly demonstrate that education is not a barrier for stupidity.- Hide quoted text -

Obviously, you've got Schultz on your mind.

> - Show quoted text -
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 05:38 GMT
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 05:56 GMT
: Aspirin and even morphine don't work for all pain.  So, when do we
: write them off as 100% placebo?

I have offered to explain to you the statistical difficulties with
evaluating alternative therapies (or regular therapies, for that matter).
I have presented you with a number of articles that conclude that
acupuncture works no better than a placebo; the significance of these papers
was explained to you by Peter Moran.  All of this has been ignored by you.
When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand
how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
The One True Zhen Jue - 19 May 2008 13:08 GMT
> In article <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand
> how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you.

That is your answer to the fact that only 15% of the MD
Acupuncturist's patients didn't respond to acupuncture?  People
unsuccessfully treated with conventional medicine had an 85% response
rate and an average of 75% reduction in pain and its all a placebo?
Do show me a situation where a conventional method achieves such
results.  Cue chirping crickets.

By all means, do inform the Airforce, the NIH, the WHO, the UK, and
all the major medical schools that they don't know enough to realize
that they are using a placebo.  I'm sure they'll be delighted to be
set straight by you.  And, while you are at it, do explain why only
15% of the Airforce patients do not respond to acupuncture and why
those who do average 75% reduction in pain.

What is well known about acupuncture is that it works.  It works
better than conventional methods for pain and nausea. Its efficacy is
as certain as Richard Schultz's need to lie about acupuncture.

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 13:51 GMT
> In article <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> -----
> "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

You have NOT offered jack sh.t.

You sit there and pretend to know statistics,
insult everyone and take some sort of holier than
though attitude.

I keep waiting for something substansive but it never
comes.

As you very well know, STATISTICS CAN LIE... the Tobacco
companies did it for years and more recently Vioxx.

You know the consequences.

I unfortunately have to put your comments in the same
category as Martin and Mark Probert and ignore
your posts.

Like the both of the above mentioned people, you
are perfectly capable of intelligent well reasoned
posts and I'm certain, hiding behind all
that pretension, you have a genuine intellect
whose comments are worthy of consideration.

You are genius at one thing I've seen so far and
one thing only - you project the APPEARANCE of knowing
the answers but the answers themselves never come.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 15:05 GMT
: You have NOT offered jack sh.t.

I have made an offer.  Your refusal to acknowledge the offer does not
mean that the offer was made -- at least here on planet Earth.  I have
no idea what goes on in Bizzarro World.

: You sit there and pretend to know statistics,

I do not pretend to know any more about statistics than I in fact know
about statistics.  If you would take the trouble to look up my published
papers, you'll find that the reported results include a statistical
analysis (admittedly a very basic one).  That means that I must know at
least a *little* about statistics, which is obviously more than you do.

: I keep waiting for something substansive but it never comes.

Did you read the two articles about acupuncture and quitting smoking that
I posted?  I didn't think so.

What you apparently fail to realize is that I do not consider it my job
to make up the many lacunae in your education.  I have told you that if
you want to understand what it is that you do not understand, you will at
the very least have to learn some basic chemistry and biology.  It's not
my job to teach you.

: As you very well know, STATISTICS CAN LIE... the Tobacco
: companies did it for years and more recently Vioxx.

As usual, you fall for yet another popular logical fallacy.  Statistics
don't lie, but statisticians can.  And what you don't understand is that
*precisely* the same kinds of statistical flaws that plagued the drug
companies' reports of Vioxx, anti-depressants, etc., are the same kinds of
statistical flaws that plague positive reports of acupuncture, homeopathy,
and so on.  The tobacco companies weren't falling for the same kind of
statistical fallacy -- they were telling outright lies.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 15:37 GMT
> In article <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand
> how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you.

Let me translate these comments for everyone.

"I (NOTE THE "I") have presented you with a number of articles
that conclude..."
"the significance of these papers was explained to you
by PETER MORAN...

These kinds of comments are
the well known LOGICAL FALLACY known as the
ARGUMENTUM AD AUTHORITATEM (APPEAL TO AUTHORITY).

"When you show any interest in learning enough
to be ABLE to understand" (emphasis mine)
"how one goes about answering your question,
I will GLADLY answer it for you".

Here Richard is again appealing to the
"authority" (sic) of his intellect presupposing
that he even UNDERSTANDS THE QUESTION, and
presupposing not only that he knows the answer
to this question but is in possession of a methodology
to answer ALL such questions.

He then adds his favorite "endquote"
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

Note that Richard, who has infinitely AMPLE OPPORTUNITY
to post serious answers and offer up opinions which
could be debated NEVER seems to do so.  He only keeps
repeating over and over that HE has the answer
and if only we are nice and beg, HE will deign to
explain the ANSWER to us.

A better example of the logical fallacy known as
the appeal to authority could not be found.

I think by now we are all (or most of us) of the
same opinion on Richard's endlessly repeated
boasts ->  PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Citizen Jimserac
We DO have a CLUE about YOU!!!!!
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 16:21 GMT
:> I have offered to explain to you the statistical difficulties with
:> evaluating alternative therapies (or regular therapies, for that matter).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:> When you show any interest in learning enough to be able to understand
:> how one goes about answering your question, I will gladly answer it for you.

: "I (NOTE THE "I") have presented you with a number of articles
: that conclude..."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: the well known LOGICAL FALLACY known as the
: ARGUMENTUM AD AUTHORITATEM (APPEAL TO AUTHORITY).

Wrong again.  

: Note that Richard, who has infinitely AMPLE OPPORTUNITY
: to post serious answers and offer up opinions which
: could be debated NEVER seems to do so.  

I have offered up serious answers:  I have posted citations to (and in
some cases abstracts of) the scientific literature and offered to discuss
the contents thereof.  Somehow, these offers are never taken up.  

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Why is it so important that you want to contact the governments of our Earth?"
"Because of Death!  Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 17:23 GMT
On May 19, 11:21 am, schu...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz)

POSTING IGNNORED.
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:28 GMT
>> In article
>> <77a3c5c3-5c1e-42c5-8c54-c85e4c4c0...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> Citizen Jimserac
> We DO have a CLUE about YOU!!!!!

Hip! Hip!  Hooray!

It's called Power Hungry Demeanor
Citizen Jimserac - 18 May 2008 18:34 GMT
> Does that statement not raise any red flags for you?
>
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

It does for me, it means your endquote stinks.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 05:57 GMT
:> Does that statement not raise any red flags for you?
:>
:> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

: It does for me, it means your endquote stinks.

Tell me, why is it so important to you that you make a fool of yourself
in public?  Are you being paid by Big Pharma to make alternative medicine
look bad?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Why is it so important that you want to contact the governments of our Earth?"
"Because of Death!  Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
Citizen Jimserac - 19 May 2008 13:44 GMT
> In article <cc7043ab-9f9c-472e-ba53-fe56f04c6...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> in public?  Are you being paid by Big Pharma to make alternative medicine
> look bad?

Am I being paid by Big Pharma???

You're kidding right?

OK, where's the kill file icon...

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 19 May 2008 15:06 GMT
: Am I being paid by Big Pharma???

Well, there are basically two explanations for why you consistently
post what can only be described as "idiocy."  The less unflattering of
the two is that you are being paid to act like an idiot.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot,
but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot."
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:30 GMT
"Richard Schultz"
idiot.

> -----
> Richard Schultz
Jan Drew - 21 May 2008 06:29 GMT
"Richard Schultz"  

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
 
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