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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008

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Vitamins and mortality

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Peter Moran - 06 May 2008 05:41 GMT
A recent Cochrane review of all relevant prospective randomised controlled
trials showed no  beneficial effect on death rates from antioxidant
vitamins, and possible increased mortality from Vitamin A, Beta carotene and
Vitamin E supplementation.

These are unremarkable findings.  They confirm a trend in nearly all the
quality studies published in recent years.   The apparent benefits of a high
vitamin intake seem to be more strongly associated with a good diet than
with supplementation.

Yet this report has been met by a frenzy of denial and accusations of
unscientific behaviour by many "nutritionists" and alternative supporters.
The main accusation of these amateur scientists against the renowned
Cochrane collaboration is that the authors excluded studies in which no
subjects died.     This shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of
the data being looked at.       There are at least 26 other Cochrane reviews
examining the influence of antioxidant and vitamin supplementation on
diseases ranging from cataracts to gastrointestinal tumors. This specific
study was designed to ask whether antioxidant supplements have any effect on
*overall mortality*.  So, of course it was reasonable to exclude studies in
which no subjects died,  in either the intervention or the control arms of
the trials.  Such studies could not contribute data relevant to the
question.

Quote from the abstract-
"Background

Animal and physiological research as well as observational studies suggest
that antioxidant supplements may improve survival.

Objectives

To assess the effect of antioxidant supplements on mortality in primary or
secondary prevention randomized clinical trials."

And a summary of the study from the Cochrane site ---

No evidence to support antioxidant supplements to prevent mortality in
healthy people or patients with various diseases.   Previous research on
animal and physiological models suggest that antioxidant supplements have
beneficial effects that may prolong life. Some observational studies also
suggest that antioxidant supplements may prolong life, whereas other
observational studies demonstrate neutral or harmful effects. Randomised
trials have largely been neutral. We need evidence from randomised trials to
decide if antioxidant supplements should be used for prevention.
The present systematic review includes 67 randomised clinical trials. In
total, 232,550 participants were randomised to antioxidant supplements
(beta-carotene, vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E, and selenium) versus
placebo or no intervention. Twenty-one trials included 164,439 healthy
participants. Forty-six trials included 68111 participants with various
diseases (including gastrointestinal, cardiovascular, neurological, ocular,
dermatological, rheumatoid, renal, endocrinological, or unspecified
diseases).

Overall, the antioxidant supplements did not seem to reduce mortality. A
total of 17880 of 136,023 participants (13.1%) randomised to antioxidant
supplements and 10136 of 96527 participants (10.5%) randomised to placebo or
no intervention died. In the analyses of the trials with low risk of bias,
beta-carotene, vitamin A, and vitamin E significantly increased mortality.
There were no significant differences between the effects of antioxidant
supplements in healthy participants (primary prevention trials) or
participants with various diseases (secondary prevention trials). Randomised
trials with adequate bias control found no significant effect of vitamin C.
In some of our analyses, selenium seems to reduce mortality.

The current evidence does not support the use of antioxidant supplements in
the general population or in patients with certain diseases. The combined
evidence suggests that additional research on antioxidant supplements is
needed. The evidence on vitamin C and selenium was not conclusive. Future
trials could focus on vitamin C and selenium and should assess both
potential beneficial and harmful effects. Conduct of additional primary and
secondary prevention trials on vitamin A, beta-carotene, and vitamin E seems
questionable, at least in the dosage range examined.

The present review does not assess antioxidant supplements for treatment of
specific diseases (tertiary prevention), antioxidant supplements for
patients with demonstrated specific needs of antioxidants, or the effects of
antioxidants contained in fruits or vegetables. Further research and
systematic reviews on these types of interventions are therefore warranted.

PM
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 06 May 2008 09:12 GMT
> A recent Cochrane review of all relevant prospective randomised controlled
> trials showed no  beneficial effect on death rates from antioxidant
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> PM

There is a need for better studies and better reporting.
The "vitamin E" the studies use is often the racemic form
or the isolated rrr-alpha form that isn't what I take.
Plus I take my high gamma E with a whopping dose
of both K1 and K2.  I take vitamin C but I also have
a high intake of numerous bioflavonoids. They
talk about antioxidants and they fail to include
r alpha lipoic acid which is like discussing the solar
system and forgetting a major planet.

Nor should all trans beta-carotene and vitamin A
be conflated though while related they aren't the same
thing.

This meta analysis is just a over-glorified editoral from Poland.
D. C. Sessions - 06 May 2008 14:02 GMT
> There is a need for better studies and better reporting.
> The "vitamin E" the studies use is often the racemic form
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> be conflated though while related they aren't the same
> thing.

If I understand you correctly, supplementation is a very
tricky matter that has to be done exactly right, balancing
a large number of variables, to get any benefit at all.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 07 May 2008 03:23 GMT
> If I understand you correctly, supplementation is a very
> tricky matter that has to be done exactly right, balancing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> | sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
> +--- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ---+

I don't see it as "tricky." Rather that most guidance given
is all that good especially the guidance provided by
the orthodox authorities isn't worth much more than
materials used to line the bottom of the bird cage.
It clearly shouldn't be left in the hands of medical
professionals, it better left in hands of the public because
while some will be misguided by both the med professionals.
and the popular press, others will get it right.
Some of us out here also have degrees or considerable
backgrounds in the sciences.

Nutrition and supplement use is less tricky than
stock and bond investing.

I'll grant much of the public is infantile but I include
the majority medical providers in that catagory.
I just wished they leave the adults alone.
Peter Moran - 06 May 2008 22:22 GMT
<trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:61d3c56c-50a2-424d-b791-59835c503def@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On May 5, 9:41 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> A recent Cochrane review of all relevant prospective randomised controlled
> trials showed no beneficial effect on death rates from antioxidant
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>
> PM

There is a need for better studies and better reporting.
The "vitamin E" the studies use is often the racemic form
or the isolated rrr-alpha form that isn't what I take.
Plus I take my high gamma E with a whopping dose
of both K1 and K2.

PM >Is this because you think that Vitamin K will counter the bleeding
tendency large doses of Vitamin E can produce?

I take vitamin C but I also have
a high intake of numerous bioflavonoids. They
talk about antioxidants and they fail to include
r alpha lipoic acid which is like discussing the solar
system and forgetting a major planet.

Nor should all trans beta-carotene and vitamin A
be conflated though while related they aren't the same
thing.

This meta analysis is just a over-glorified editoral from Poland.

PM   It's just an overview of what the available evidence is showing.   It
spells out where doubt still exists.

And Jeez! ---- explain to me why alternative medicine would not be thrilled
to know that a nice, safe, entirely natural and unpolluting diet can do as
well as expensive vitamin supplementation.  Surely this is proof of
brainwashing by the supplement industry -- mostly the same villains who
produce pharmaceuticals?

PM.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 07 May 2008 00:50 GMT
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 129 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

One of the main points that you do not understand Moron, is that our
foods are mainly fluff with very little stuff.

The fluff may be vitamin and anti-oxidant poor food stuffs which
contains bacterial genes, algecides, herbacides, insecticides,
fungalcides, etc.

The main problem with the fluff is that the stuff is grown on mineral
dificent soil.  By adding only three minerals, NPK, we can get fluff
to eat but the fluff does not contain the nutritional components found
in foodstuffs of even 20 years ago.  This does not address the mineral
deficencies found in our soils, and thus our plants and foodstuffs.
Try growing a crop of nearly anything without NPK.  You will be very
hungry next harvest season.

Combine vitamin and mineral deficiency with poisoning from all the -
ides and you have just described nearly all of mankind's dis-eases.

The reductionist's studies of looking at one vitamin at a time, and a
synthetic one at that, means you have set the stage for mass ignorance
about dis-ease and vitamins and minerals.

One plus none equals disease and death.  The vitamins must have
mineral cofactors to work, and the minerals need the vitamin cofactors
to work.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Peter Moran - 07 May 2008 04:08 GMT
On May 6, 5:22 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 147 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

One of the main points that you do not understand Moron, is that our
foods are mainly fluff with very little stuff.

The fluff may be vitamin and anti-oxidant poor food stuffs which
contains bacterial genes, algecides, herbacides, insecticides,
fungalcides, etc.

The main problem with the fluff is that the stuff is grown on mineral
dificent soil.  By adding only three minerals, NPK, we can get fluff
to eat but the fluff does not contain the nutritional components found
in foodstuffs of even 20 years ago.  This does not address the mineral
deficencies found in our soils, and thus our plants and foodstuffs.
Try growing a crop of nearly anything without NPK.  You will be very
hungry next harvest season.

Combine vitamin and mineral deficiency with poisoning from all the -
ides and you have just described nearly all of mankind's dis-eases.

The reductionist's studies of looking at one vitamin at a time, and a
synthetic one at that, means you have set the stage for mass ignorance
about dis-ease and vitamins and minerals.

One plus none equals disease and death.  The vitamins must have
mineral cofactors to work, and the minerals need the vitamin cofactors
to work.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.

PM Yet despite these supposed defects, the studies are showing that diet
does healthier outcomes than vitamin supplementation..

PM
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 07 May 2008 03:09 GMT
> PM >Is this because you think that Vitamin K will counter the bleeding
> tendency large doses of Vitamin E can produce?

That is a no brainer as I see it. It has long been know that large
doses
of "vitamin E" reduces the levels of vitamin K. Recall there chemical
structures are similar and most absorption is facilitated some or
another mechanism. It is likely these quinones compete for
absorption. Further most diets are very low in vitamin K even
many professional designed diets. And only a tiny few take
meaningful amounts of vitamin K as supplements.

> This meta analysis is just a over-glorified editoral from Poland.
>
> PM   It's just an overview of what the available evidence is showing.   It
> spells out where doubt still exists.

I doubt the the studies, their design and even their execution.

> And Jeez! ---- explain to me why alternative medicine would not be thrilled
> to know that a nice, safe, entirely natural and unpolluting diet can do as
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> PM.

My view is more complex than what you project on to me.
Drug companies aren't a 100 percent villians, they are composed
of people with mutiple motives, their own interests within
the companies and biases.

Second, our diets are polluted, over bred, and over processed.
People are given dubious dietary advice by all sorts of groups
whether they are ADA or USDA.

Third, I seen the benefits of supplements for aliments the orthodox
Doc had very poor drug treatment.
Take a look at panic attacks, the Doc will offer some med like
an SSRI med yet large dose myo-inositol works as effective
as the meds without the adverse drug effects.
Or look at GERD that Docs throw PPI meds and motility
meds at this condition but alternative medicine instead
uses betaine HCL caps to increase to stomach
acidtity to prevent reflux and prompt stomach motility.
Or take a look at diabetic neuropathy and the value of vitamin E,
benfotiamine,  and r-alpha lipoic acid.
Or consider the value of vitamins K2, D3, and rutin, strontium, and
DHEA
in the face of osteoporosis.

Sure diet is good. If one eats wild caught deep cold ocean fish,
lean non-corn fed beef, no or little grain, no simple sugars,
limited fruit, and lots and lots of non-starchy veggies.

The supplement industry has just as much right to brainwash
as the pinheads in the orthodox medical field. Of course, the
situation isn't ideal and many proposes "solutions" are
much worse than the status quo. Nor are all the ideas
I've mentioned even much pushed by the supplement
industry. I wish they would. Some of these things
are use by alternative Doc who know by experience
these things can profoundly help.

Fourth, I see what has taken place in other nations
and I am not impressed. True other nations have
so what better over all health care but still they
don't grasp what is truly possible as regards health.
productive years, and longevity.
Jan Drew - 07 May 2008 05:25 GMT
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/154135-Vitamins-A-C-and-E-Increase-Mortality-O
ther-Nonsense-From-Junk-Science


The latest attack on vitamins A, C, E, selenium and beta-carotene comes from
the Cochrane Library, a widely-read source of information on conventional
health matters. In the paper published yesterday, these antioxidants were
linked with a higher risk of mortality ("they'll kill you!"), and now
serious-sounding scientists have warned consumers away from taking vitamins
altogether. But with all the benefits of antioxidants already well known to
the well-informed, how did the Cochrane Library arrive at such a conclusion?
It's easy: The researchers considered 452 studies on these vitamins, and
they threw out the 405 studies where nobody died! That left just 47 studies
where subjects died from various causes (one study was conducted on terminal
heart patients, for example). From this hand-picked selection of studies,
these researchers concluded that antioxidants increase mortality.

Just in case the magnitude of the scientific fraud taking place here has not
yet become apparent, let me repeat what happened: These scientists claimed
to be studying the effects of vitamins on mortality, right? They were
conducting a meta-analysis based on reviewing established studies. But
instead of conducting an honest review of all the studies, they arbitrarily
decided to eliminate all studies in which vitamins prevented mortality and
kept people alive! They did this by "excluding all studies in which no
participants died." What was left to review? Only the studies in which
people died from various causes.

Brilliant, huh? This sort of bass-ackward science would earn any teenager an
"F" in high school science class. But apparently it's good enough for the
Cochrane Library, not to mention all the mainstream press outlets that are
now repeating these silly conclusions as scientific fact.

Aspirin Causes a Drop in Erections!

Using this same cherry-picking method for reviewing previous studies, I
could find evidence to support practically any conclusion I wanted. For
example, let's say that I took a look at 100 studies reviewing the effects
of aspirin on erections. And let's suppose I arbitrarily decide to eliminate
all the studies involving men, leaving only studies involving women. I could
then announce -- with the evidence to back it up -- that "Aspirin Linked
with Drop in Erections!" Why? Because nobody in the groups I look at had any
erections at all. Sure, they're all women, but that's beside the point. By
arbitrarily removing selected studies from my analysis, I can "prove" just
about anything, even if it's utter nonsense.

The antioxidant study did the exact same thing by eliminating all studies in
which people were kept alive and healthy while taking antioxidant vitamins.
Or, put another way, the lead researchers on this study purposely eliminated
all the studies involving healthy people, leaving only the studies involving
people who were about to die anyway (like the chronically-diseased heart
patients I mentioned earlier). Never mind the fact that antioxidants might
have actually extended the lives of some of these people by a few days or
weeks -- the fact that they died while being treated with vitamins is
enough, it seems, to point the finger at the vitamins themselves.

If a suicidal stock broker leaps from a tall building, and you hand him a
vitamin C tablet on the way down, then it's obviously the vitamin C that
kills him, right? That's the conclusion of this ridiculous study: Take a
bunch of patients who are about to die, load 'em up with antioxidants, and
tally the inevitable death toll. Then announce, with great fanfare, your
findings that "Antioxidant Vitamins Increase Mortality!"

Much "scientific" research is pure fiction

As you can see from this particular junk science study on antioxidants, the
credibility of much of what happens under the guise of "science" is now so
awful that I often wonder how many pharmaceuticals the researchers are on.
These people literally have to be on drugs to come up with such
poorly-designed studies (and to have the gumption to announce their results
with a straight face, too!).

Turns out I'm not off the mark. A recent survey in Nature found that 20
percent of science academics use mind-altering drugs for non-medical reasons
to boost academic performance. That's one out of five researchers engaged in
illegal drug use! This is a group that takes more mind-altering drugs than a
Southern California hippy parade. And then they turn around and come up with
"scientific" studies that lack such credibility, even an intelligent child
could see right through them.

Actually, it's worse. Because what we're seeing in this antioxidant study is
not merely bad science, but deceptive science. Bad science is created by
bumbling idiots mucking around with clinical trial data, but deceptive
science is created by people who have an agenda; people who have decided
what outcome they wish to create even before the study begins. And that's
not real science, folks: That's just subterfuge with an agenda.

Agenda-driven scientific-sounding trickery has now replaced real science in
much the same way that politicians' pronouncements of "the economy is
great!" have replaced any real talk about the national debt. The truth is no
longer relevant, it seems. What matters is whatever they can pull off and
get the public to believe. The illusion of science is now being routinely
used to push a particular anti-vitamin agenda. And guess who's behind that
agenda? Big Pharma, of course. There's no better way to trap consumers in a
system of lifelong pharmaceutical treatment than to convince them that
vitamins are not merely worthless, but perhaps even dangerous!

The unstated conclusion behind all this, by the way, is that "Drugs are
therefore safe." If vitamins are dangerous, drugs must be the safe way to
treat disease, right?

Riiiight. Drugs are safe, vitamins are dangerous, sunlight will kill you,
water has no health benefits, fresh spinach is dangerous... need I go on?
These are the pronouncements of a system of medical idiocy that has gone so
far beyond the limits of reason, they've actually fallen off the edge of
their own Flat Earth. Next, they'll be telling us that breaking a mirror
brings you seven years of bad luck, or that if you keep a lucky rabbit's
foot in your pocket, pharmaceuticals will work better.

Because let's face it: When facts are no longer relevant, modern "science"
becomes nothing more than superstition.

Additional thoughts

I don't mean, by the way, that all modern science is meaningless. There's
still a lot of great science going on these days. But when I see
"scientific" studies like the one reviewed here being published in the
mainstream media, I have to wonder just how low the scientific standards
have become today. One thing for sure: The "peer review" approach to science
is a complete disaster. All peer review does is protects entrenched ideas
that should have been tossed out decades ago. Peer review is a way for
defenders of outmoded ideas to reject new ideas, and thus protect their
careers and egos.

Peer review doesn't work. After all, it allows junk studies like the one
described here to be readily published. All peer review means is that as
long as all the peers share the same illusions (or biases), the paper will
be published as scientific fact!

Don't believe what you read in the science journals, folks. At least not
without engaging your own brain and thinking for a moment about who's behind
the study and what they're trying to accomplish. It's quite clear that on
this particular study, the aim is to scare consumers away from taking
vitamins. Now ask yourself: Who would that benefit? The answer is rather
obvious.
 
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